#162 - Addison Smith, Coaching Series - RPE VS HR Training

Start lines are loud, data is messy, and mountains don’t care about your watch. We sat down with coach and ultrarunner Addison Smith to sort the signal from the noise: when to trust rate of perceived exertion, when heart rate zones help, and how to train for races that start cool, turn hot, and punish mistakes. Addison opens with a candid Black Canyon 100K recap—pacing with restraint, GI trouble in the middle miles, and the stubborn choice to keep fueling until the legs came back—then flips it into a toolkit you can use right away.

We break down a simple, usable RPE scale and show how to layer it with heart rate ranges without becoming a slave to numbers. On steep and technical terrain, grades, heat, and altitude can skew heart rate and pace; RPE keeps you honest. For heat adaptation, Addison shares a safe, effective 7–10 day protocol using sauna or hot baths after easy sessions in the 2–3 weeks before race day. The rule is “stimulus, not another workout”: 20–30 minutes, hydrate well, shorten after long runs, and avoid the temptation to “win” the sauna.

If Pikes Peak or big vert is on your calendar, you’ll want the over-under session in your toolbox. We explain how short VO2 surges followed immediately by threshold or steady state teach your body to shuttle lactate and your mind to settle when it craves a break—exactly the skill you need cresting steep switchbacks and rolling into runnable terrain. We also tackle the puzzle of why a crusher on the Manitou Incline might still have a modest mile PR: specificity, mechanics, and background sports make climbing strength and flat speed different beasts.

Throughout, we talk block training vs “a bit of everything,” the real role of zone two, and how life stress quietly shifts your zones day to day. We close with a reality check on coaching changes—why results often lag new systems—and shout out standout CTS performances at Black Canyon. Subscribe, share with a training partner, and leave a quick review to help more trail athletes find the show. What guides your long runs most—heart rate, pace, or feel? Tell us after you listen.

Follow Addison on IG - @addison_smith16

Contact Addison for Coaching - @CTS

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Transcript

Welcome And Black Canyon Recap

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello, and today's guest is Addison Smith, CTS Ultra and Trail Running Coach, as well as Ultra and Trailrunner himself. Addison was kind enough to come on the show for another one of our quarterly coaching chats. This one was on rate of perceived exertion versus training in heart rate zones. Very fun conversation with lots of side topics. We got into everything. Different strategies with rate of perceived exertion versus heart rate zones, heart rate monitors, data, all the fun, all the good stuff. Anything you guys wanted to know, we we really tackled it. We even got into the Manitou Incline and how that correlates to fitness and lots of fun side quests on this one. One other fun topic that we dove into was cooling and heating strategies and Addison's debrief of the Black Canyon 100k that he actually just ran this past weekend. Um so we kind of talked about his uh little race recap and uh all the good stuff around that. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. Addison's a wealth of knowledge, and if you are interested in his coaching, you can find him uh in the show notes. So here we go. Addison Smith, you know, it's a little bit of a good thing. Ladies and gentlemen, we all right, Addison Smith. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

I'm doing good, I'm doing good.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Thanks for having me on.

unknown 2:25

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I'm excited to uh excited to welcome you back, especially after Black Canyon weekend. It's been a big weekend for you. It was a big weekend for CTS as well. Oh, yeah. Um, lots to talk about, lots to discuss. Maybe uh, yeah, dude, initial reactions and feelings after Black Canyon weekend.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

I think whenever I come away from you know a big ultra weekend, I think the biggest thing is just the feeling of um just how awesome the ultra and trail community is. You know, there were a lot of, you know, the same names and faces that you typically see at these things, whether it's a short trail event or long trail event. Um, but regardless, I think, you know, the community aspect is just so strong and you feel that, you know, wherever you go. Um, and I think that's why, you know, our sport is growing so much. And so I think the big takeaway for me is just like another awesome event. You know, yes, there were highs and lows for um a lot of athletes out there, myself included. I had the opportunity to race 100k, which was, which was great. Um, but just to be out there in the community, in the trails, uh, such a great time and so good to see, you know, friends and colleagues, new faces and old faces out there.

Community, Highs, Lows, And Heat

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah, what a what a weekend, man. I mean, from far away, it was fun to follow as well watching all you guys suffer on the live stream. It was it was I broke broke out the popcorn on uh on my Saturday afternoon and just watched folks suffer one after another. How was dude, how was your race? Debrief, uh, give me give me the highs, give me the lows. What's the what's the race report like?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Totally, yeah. So personally, this was the first hundred K race I'd ever done. Um, you know, I recently moved to Michigan this winter, and so I knew that was gonna throw a wrench into my preparation, just you know, in terms of needing the additional heat training, figuring out ways to get in, you know, the climbing, but most importantly the descending to kind of season my quads for what was to come. But, you know, it was overall a really great experience. Um, I think like everyone out there, even though it's like cooler for Arizona, everyone still felt that heat. And I think that was a big factor in a lot of people's races, whether it was overheating or for in my case, you know, having some GI issues in the middle 20 miles there and trying to find my way out of that. Um, but overall, I I think I was, you know, personally really proud of just like being able to kind of um reset and and kind of grind out those last miles. I think it's easy, you know, when you're in the thick of it and you're just like, I how am I gonna keep taking in all these calories? Like I can't keep anything down to just like be bummed out and you know, maybe just peter out and call it at an aid station. But um, I was really happy with, you know, my own ability to just kind of rally and and see what I had and and finish it strong. Um, and certainly, you know, I wasn't the only one in that boat. You know, there was there were people moving through, but there were a lot of people that were just holding on or just trying not to fade. And I think, you know, that's not only, you know, the circumstances for a hot race like that, but I think an early season race too, where, you know, maybe you don't have those race day reps under you as much, you know, some of those feelings of of nausea or fatigue, you know, um, you haven't felt them since maybe the the late fall. And so all of this awesome training um, you know, is is coming into this thing, but you know, going out and doing it is is definitely a different scenario that some people may or may not be ready for, you know, in that first race.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

So cool. Do you think? I mean, obviously you've been to Javelina, you've been to a lot of these races, man. Some of the biggest races in the world, including the UTMB races. What did you think? Like, does this one live up to the hype and the magic that like we're seeing on on television with like Mountain Outpost is putting out there and stuff? Because it looks like a really special race, and and it seems like Aero Vipa puts on a great just production value, seems awesome too.

Course Reality: Fast Myth, Rocky Truth

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Oh, totally. Yeah, first off, yeah, Mountain Outpost and and shout out to Ari Vipa, like they did a really great job out there taking care of us at the aid stations, but also, you know, bringing the coverage to everyone else to continue to grow the sport and allow people like you to enjoy it from their couch. Um, but I really, you know, I love the course, you know, it's it's definitely rockier than what, you know, everyone talks about it being like this super fast course. I think that's just a testament to the athletes that are out there and and the caliber of performance they're putting on. Because that's second half of the course. So, like, yes, there's some technical parts in that first 50K for the 50K racers, but once you get past Deep Canyon Ranch, that's when things really start getting gnarly and you're starting to get those like big-headed rocks, and you know, there's no real place to step other than on top of them, and you're navigating that on top of the fatigue and and the heat. And so um it's certainly not a race course to take lightly, despite the fact that, you know, it seems very runnable and you know, the elevation profile isn't necessarily that gnarly. Um, but yeah, really great course. I think it's really nicely run in the sense that like you have some really nice flowy sections early, but I think that also leads to just getting trapped into doing a little too much too early. And that's why you're seeing so many epic blow-ups, not only with it being an early season race, but it just lends itself for you to get a little bit too excited and kind of just go with the pack that maybe you should have, you know, held off and and held back a little bit early on.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

It's so interesting. So that was my next question I had teed up for you because like you're a fast fit dude, like and I know you like to compete. Yeah, where and I know that first 20 miles is really fast. Did you did you go out hard or did you did you did you save some? Like, how did you go out?

Pacing Choices And Midrace Problems

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah. I so for me, um with it being my first 100k experience, with me wanting to, you know, make the company proud and not do something really dumb like a lot of you know male fast athletes do, like I wanted to pump the brakes early. Like I wanted to be totally chilling, totally in zone two, like not breathing hard on any of the climbs. And I think I did a good job of doing that. Um, and and you know, making sure that I gave myself an opportunity to move through the field and feel good in the second half. But that being said, like it's still 100K, like so many things can go wrong. You still have to navigate the heat, you still have to hydrate well and all those things. Um, so I thought I set myself up well. Um, and I I definitely think there were people in that boat that kind of moved through the field really well. Um, and I'd like to say I was one of those, but you know, everyone has their own struggles in the middle of the race. Like some people, like we were talking talking about off-recording, you know, it was the heat factor and it was like them getting a little bit overheated. Maybe um, you know, heat mitigation strategies during or preparation before could have been adjusted. Maybe it was, you know, not getting in enough hydration because you start at, you know, um 35 degrees Fahrenheit, and so it feels like, oh, I don't really need to drink that much, and all of a sudden you're roasting. Um, and for some people it's the combination of the two, and then it's hard to keep food down, which is kind of in my case. Um, but I think that's what makes ultrarunning so fun, is you know, you have all of these factors that um you try to get everything perfect, but most of the time it's figuring out ways to adjust when things don't quite go to plan.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, problem solving on the fly. And that is the that is a fun aspect of it because it's not just fitness, there's so many more extra components. And we've talked about this a bunch um in previous episodes. And I don't know, I just find that to be those extra things where you're trying to problem solve in the middle of the race are are always interesting. For you, do you think it was more, especially you uh had said you had some nutrition uh things to figure out, maybe middle of the race area? Do you think it was heat, or do you think it was just like not enough salt, too much salt? How did how do you what do you think it was for for you specifically?

SPEAKER_00 10:08

And how did you problem solve? Totally, totally. I think it was a combination of of a few of those things. I I think I was pretty dialed on the nutrition side. Like I didn't get too excited and want to push 90 grams or anything. I was probably more towards the 70 to 80 mark. Um, but I think you know, once you're fueling for a certain amount of time and your core temp goes up, you know, doing that in, you know, Michigan and in 30 degrees and that feeling, you know, solid may not necessarily be the case. And I typically am not a GI guy, so this is kind of like out of left field a little bit. But I do think, you know, the heat playing a factor was was probably what turned it. But also my commitment to keeping with the calories is what kept me afloat and me not like walking the entire second half. Like, yeah, I slowed down and it was a bit of a grind, more of a bit more than just a bit of a grind in that second half. Um, but you know, I I think for any athletes that go through that rough patch, it's the commitment to finding a way to get out of it and continuing to keep the calories flowing is what's going to give you a fighting chance. And I I think that's what at the end of the day helped me finish it out and and you know, not totally blow up uh at the end.

Heat Training Done Right

SPEAKER_01 11:16

I love it. I love it. Let's talk heat. Um like you had said, you're you're a Michigan back to being a Michigander now. Not an easy thing to train for a hot race like this when you're trying to um, you know, work on, I guess, a hot race in a lot of ways. And we saw, I mean, firsthand, you got to see it in the race, I got to see it on the live stream. The heat destroyed some people. Yeah. Can you can you is it like and a lot of these are professional high-end athletes that I know are doing heat training. Can you do too much in training as far as the heat side and and almost overdo it or maybe talk about that a little bit as far as what the optimal aspect is for heat training and and how to not over kind of over go crazy about it?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Totally, totally. Um, because I, you know, kind of what you're kind of setting me up to answer here, I do think there's, you know, two ranges of heat training. You can definitely underdo it and underprepare to where, you know, you have, you know, that opportunity to get yourself ready ahead of time, and that's something that should be taken seriously. But I think also, you know, you can leave a little bit of training on the table if you're doing too much heat training, or you can get yourself really fatigued and in a bad spot going into a race because there's certainly, you know, an aspect of it where you're pushing too hard in the hot bath, you're not adjusting your training and reducing training volume and or intensity in light of that additional stress. And then you're just setting yourself up to either get sick ahead of the race because there's too much, you know, stress on your body, or you know, you're competing in the sauna or the hot bath in addition to all of that training, and that's just gonna leave you way too fatigued, and then you know, none of that heat adaptation is really gonna show up on race day. Um, so typically when we um give heat training product protocols for athletes here at CTS, we do it um either by way of a one-phase uh heat protocol or a two-phase heat protocol. And what I mean by that is typically when you're doing a heat protocol, you want to you know give some sort of heat stimulus to the body for seven to ten days, typically two to three weeks out from the race. So you can kind of taper it down and make sure that you're as fresh as possible going into the race. And so by kind of heat protocol, I mean, you know, getting in the hot bath or getting in the sauna for 20 to 30 minutes after an exercise bout. So there you can, you know, it is fairly popular, especially in the track and field space, to just layer clothes on you and go out for runs. Um, but typically that means you're leaving something on the table in your training because you know, you're way too hot, you're probably sweating way too much, you're you're feeling overheated. And so if you're doing any sort of workout, those splits are going to show that additional fatigue that you're throwing in in that training session. So we like to split those things up. And so, you know, you're doing um your training, whether it's a workout, long run, easy run, and then you're, you know, as soon as possible getting to that um, you know, hot bath or sauna and doing 20 to 30 minutes um of you know uncomfortable work, but not something to where it feels like a workout where you know you're looking at your watch and it's like, I have three more minutes, I need to grind through this. Like, we don't want that to be part of the scenario because that's when it gets to be a little bit dangerous and you know your body isn't gonna recover well from that and not get you ready for race day. Interesting.

Saunas, Hot Baths, And Safety

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Can you um talk about like the sauna perspective? I I I see like I don't know, I see Instagram ads all the time for like these, I don't know if they're an infrared saunas or just steam saunas versus like a legit like real sauna. Yeah um I don't like is it all based off of like internal temp? Like I'm just trying to get another better understanding of like, you know, can you actually get something to work from one of these like Cheapo Depot Instagram uh saunas? Like can you actually get some tangible heat training? Or do you need it to be within a certain temperature range?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

It does need to be within a certain temperature range, and I would recommend going to a traditional sauna because we are talking about you know, increasing your core temp, getting you to increase your sweat rate and and see some of those like plasma volume adaptations happening, which, you know, we in in kind of the scientific research that's coming out most recently is going to be done best in the sauna, second best in in a traditional sauna, second best in the in a hot bath. Um and so in light of that, you know, there's definitely a lot of different Instagram-y things out there where people are trying to hit over, you know, 180, 200 degree, like doing insane things in the sauna. And that's something definitely you want to avoid because you know the there's a there's a cost benefit to overdoing the sauna and you know, being additionally fatigued for that next day of training and realizing that there's still going to be stress regardless of you know what how the amount of time you go in the sauna, as well as wanting to see those adaptations and those benefits. And so it's it's a fine line of trying to compete or treat it like a workout versus you know trying to get that benefit, being a little bit uncomfortable, but still hydrating, still staying on top of um, you know, your hydration before and after, and not overdoing it to where you know you feel like you're gonna pass out in there because that's not gonna help you at all.

Life Stress, RPE, And Daily Adjustments

SPEAKER_01 16:29

On that thread, the advice I've always been given with usage of the sauna is easy days. Like when you're like if you want to pair it with something, pair it on easy, do not pair it with work, I'll tell you you would agree with that general advice? Totally.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, which is why, you know, typically it's we're gonna do um the one-phase protocol for beginners just to see how they adapt, because some people are already, you know, um more susceptible to becoming fatigued in you know hot environments, probably someone who's more fair skinned and lives in Michigan like me, compared to someone who lives in Arizona. Um, as well as um, you know, just making sure that, you know, that training load and stress of, you know, whatever you have going on in life is taken into account within the context of this additional stimulus. So you're gonna be doing it likely in the taper. You're not gonna be hitting your biggest mileage weeks. You know, for some people that, you know, are maybe a little bit more susceptible to fatiguing in heat scenarios, you're not gonna do it on long run days. Um, you know, traditionally you would want to do it, you know, consistently for seven to 10 days to like round out that adaptation process. But that being said, you know, uh on a long run day, there's gonna be additional fatigue. On a workout day, there's gonna be additional fatigue. So maybe we're not gonna go up to 30 minutes, we're gonna keep it to 15 to 20 because you're still gonna get in some stimulus, but that's in light of everything else you have going on. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

It's funny, man. Like when it comes to a big picture perspective, we don't have to go super in depth with this. I think athletes sometimes forget, and I do myself. I'm I'm very um, I don't know, I'm very uh not big on thinking of the holistic picture in the sense of stress, like work stress, family stress, life stress, all these different things factor in and play a massive role into additional stresses that you're putting on yourself with running and uh weight training and just all the training that you're putting in. So it's very interesting from a holistic perspective, finding balance and helping athletes find balance when it comes to that. Because a lot of times athletes aren't thinking that, like, oh, well, I had a rough day at work, and how does that factor into how my running performance is gonna be this week and things like that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

And I think as coaches and as athletes, it's really important to dig for those details because it's not something that you're necessarily going to bring up on a regular basis. Whether you're communicating with your coach or if you're self-coached, um, having those conversations of how am I feeling today? And that should be dictating training and making those fine-tuned adjustments on a daily basis, just as much as what the training plan that either you or a coach has built out for you on a given day. Um, which is why, you know, leading to a discussion on RPE, like why RPE is so important as a metric, even though it's not necessarily as quantifiable, so to speak, as maybe heart rate or your paces or all of this other data that you can go and track. Because at the end of the day, it's gonna be a accumulation of that additional life stress that you have, whether it's from work or family life or anything you go you have going on, like all of that stress matters, and it's gonna make you either, you know, be a little bit more fatigued, or if there's less of it, feel a little bit better than maybe, you know, you have written down on paper for that day.

RPE vs Heart Rate: When And Why

SPEAKER_01 19:41

It's a good segue, dude. All right, I'm I'm excited for this. All right, so for the out for the audience, the original aspect of the conversation was supposed to be, and this is the meat and bones, is the conversation between rate of perceived exertion, which is acronym RPE, and heart rate training. And then obviously, because Black Canyon kind of popped up, I use that as a good segue to we'll talk about the race and you know, just talk about what's going on in the sport and and just Black Canyon in general. Getting back to RPE versus uh versus uh heart rate training. Dude, I ruminate over this all the time because I with my current coach, like we work off of heart rate zones. I constantly wear my heart rate monitor. Um I've done a few lactate threshold tests to get my uh sorry, um, you know, to get my lactate heart rate um, you know, and paying attention to that. Obviously, you do the math based off of when you get the heart rate zone, uh, and then you know, heart rate zones and things like that versus RPE. What I've come to think of as a as an as a novice, obviously I'm not a coach. I'm kind of an idiot. I just go off of you know, sometimes assumption. And my thought has been like, all right, well, for me, heart rate, I think works better than RPE. And I think it's a lot of times because if you are prescribing like a zone two run, for instance, like my zone two is gonna be so much higher. And the uh let's say for a well-trained athlete, your zone two on a fatigue day is kind of harder to get into, versus like, let's say RPE. Well, if you preserve, if you prescribe an easy day of RPE, well, that's generally gonna be in zone one because it's very hard to get into that zone two and just sit in there when you're looking at like muscular stress and things like that. Um that's a long-winded way of saying, what do you think? I know I feel like it's different for different sections of the sport.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Totally. I definitely agree with what you said there at the end. There's um a lot of context about what the goals are in training and what um kind of history of training an athlete has that will then dictate what are the most important metrics to follow. Um, I think if we're talking about um a marathon or a 10K or someone that's doing sub ultra, it's a lot easier to prescribe by heart rate or using other metrics of data, um, like you know. Getting consistent pricks to get lactate readings, for example. Or, you know, when someone's training in flat terrain, using pace as more of an identifier for, you know, the ranges of training or pace ranges for workouts that they have to do. But when you start adding in more variables into a race in a training context, that's when it's harder to parse out, you know, what is the important underlying variables that have to be tracked on a regular basis. And how does someone go and facilitate their training to hit, you know, the training metrics that you want to see as a coach? Um, so I think that's a great place to start because I don't want to um say, you know, heart rate zones are bad, that RPE is bad in all of these contexts, because I think it's very context dependent and athlete dependent, because no metric is good in a silo if that person, both the coach and the athlete, aren't communicating on the same page and understand what the one person is prescribing and the other person is trying to achieve, if that makes sense.

Zones Explained In Plain English

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah. It's interesting, man. Yeah, I I I don't know. I'll let you take it away from here on the sense of uh I don't know. Like I've I don't know. Like I think it is, like you said, it's very heart rate, or it's very um athlete dependent. It's very um because like I never use pace zones. Yeah. Very rarely. I mean, I do do in the offseason. I I'll I'll I mean, you at least for me, like I'm looking at okay, on my flat runs, like am I feeling comfortable in that seven to seven minute per mile high sixes to like, you know, am I feeling good running on flat terrain like that? And like that's how I give give a idea of like okay, where my fitness is at for like turnover, but like I don't really ever look at paces, like more than anything. A lot of times it's me just sitting and looking at like I don't know, like uh if in where where are the heart rate zones prescribed? Is it zone one, zone two? Are we doing a tempo day? Are we doing a VO2 day? Stuff like that. Um what do you do personally as a coach? I know like it's very athlete dependent, but generally maybe we can break it out from like a uh a beginner to like a more advanced athlete because I feel like a more advanced athlete, like I said before, it's so much harder to pin down like if you're I don't know, just average, like a zone two for an advanced athlete's gonna be, you know, could be 146 to 155 or something like that for a zone two. And it's kind of hard to get in that zone on a totally on an easy day. So like what do you do for like beginners and stuff like that?

Zone Two Hype And Real Benefits

Building Blocks For Mountain Races

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Great question. So um it depend I don't want to say it depends and then not explain what it depends on, but it depends in the sense that when I have traditional trail and ultra-running athletes, I my most important thing that I want to do with that athlete when we start to have a relationship together is start to define one, you know, some RPE context so that we have that dialogue, as well as defining, you know, uh zone training if they are familiar with it. Like I'm not gonna introduce heart rate zones to someone if we can just go off of RPE and I can, you know, see their data and tell them to adjust their intensity internally. Um just because I find that if they're gonna be racing a trail and ultra event, they're gonna need to rely on RPE the most. And then I can add in additional metrics to help guide where that RPE is. Because I think at the end of the day, whether you're focusing on heart rate zones or pace or whatever, that's always in the context of how you're feeling, which is to me, is RPE. So when I talk about like using RPE, it's not necessarily saying like this is like the exact thing that you need to do. But as runners, we're always going to be like self-monitoring, you know, where we're at in a specific run, as well as looking at data to help back up how you're feeling, for example. And sometimes those things come into conflict and sometimes those things work together in unison. But at the end of the day, we're always kind of reading to see should we push a little bit more in this training run or race or on this certain climb. And so the more you kind of understand, you know, what to be looking for, those are kind of the signals that you know we're talking about first. So, in light of that, what do I do specifically? I kind of break down our kind of RPE system here at CTS. Um, because I like, like I said, you know, in different sport contexts and different running contexts, even like a breakdown of an RPE scale is going to look very different. Like there's one called the Borg RPE scale, and that's like from a scale of six to 20. We use a scale that's just from one to 10 because it's a little more simple to use, like 10 being VO2 max work, going as hard as you can, you know, and like four to five being like a recovery zone one effort. And so the first thing is defining principles, let's say where we're at with things, and then kind of going from there. Because at the end of the day, I just want to break down, you know, how we're executing different workouts within the context of, you know, the philosophy of training that we have at CTS. So, in light of that, um, kind of breaking down each of those different kinds of zones, you know, and I can talk about it, you know, in the context of heart rate zones too. So people can kind of just like relay and understand like what am I talking about in each of these? So recovery effort, like you're talking about, zone one is something that, you know, should be close to like almost walking effort, or for some people it is walking effort, depending on the fitness level. Um, super, super easy. Like you can go out and do it, you know, talking super easily. Zone two, a little bit harder, something that you do probably for a race effort of you know 50 miles onwards for a lot of athletes, you know, like the top people in our sport are probably doing zone three, zone four for a lot of their 50 mile efforts, but for the most part, a long run that doesn't feel like super um easy. You're working a little bit, but you're still like kind of able to like have a conversation with someone. Um, then kind of that next jump up would be um kind of steady state effort or zone three training, or you know, if you're losing using like a lactate um kind of measurement of all of these things, kind of that lactate turn point one, LT1, for example. And that's kind of that next bump up where it's like half marathon to marathon effort. Um, that's kind of that next zone that I like training people in, you know, lactate turn points between like two to two and a half, um, followed by threshold, threshold zone four, um, you know, something you could sustain for about 45 minutes to an hour for most people, with you know, like the Eli Hemings of the world probably able to do it for like 75 minutes. Um, and you know, that being, you know, where you're training in, you know, 2.5 to 4 millimoles, um, followed by VO2 max, which is like high-end, you know, 15 to 21 minutes of you know, all-out effort working super hard, zone five, you know, 10 out of 10 RPE. And so what I do with my athletes is just kind of walk them through all those things so that when I'm prescribing all of these different runs for them, they have a clear kind of indication of you know what they should be doing in all of the different like on and off phases of workout or for a long run, for example. And I think, you know, in light of that, when someone has a specific background of using heart rate zones, then it's easy to just pair up with like seeing that data and say, okay, now that I've seen your data and I kind of know for each of these different runs where you're at, let's like make this a little bit harder or operate in these kind of heart rate zones. But it's hard to do that without first kind of identifying what are the intensities and where to kind of put um all of those intensities in their mind of how to go out and and do those things that I'm prescribing.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Here's a million-dollar question for you too. Zones can also move based on uh how tired you are, too, right? Like your zone two can fluctuate a little bit. You're zone like more or less like on a fatigued day versus a non-fatigued day.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Is that correct? Totally, totally. And so that's why you know all of these zones are you know wide enough ranges to where like they um encompass, you know, uh a period of training where you're more fatigued versus you know feeling awesome. And then of course, as you're getting fitter, then we want all of those zones pushing upward as well. Um, they should be still feeling internally the same. Um, and you know, your heart rates might look different as you can, you know, do more capacity in a certain range, but in general, like your heart rates are gonna look similar, you're just moving faster. Um, and you're gonna be working just as hard, but moving faster. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

All right, let's talk zone two because I feel like I I don't I know I don't know much about this. This was something was more of an exploratory question I had for you. Yeah. I mean, this is like we see this on the internet, we see this as like the catchy reel on Instagram. Everybody's like, oh, you gotta be in zone two. You gotta, you know, and it's like, is that I don't know, is that like a true thing? I don't, I mean, I do a lot of I I have easy runs and I have hard runs, and it's like I get prescribed to me what zones I should be in, and it's it's all pretty straightforward from there. But like from the actual zone two perspective, like is that an overrated thing for in it? Is it different for well-trained athletes versus non-well-trained athletes?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Great question. I think as we go throughout the years, each zone is gonna become more in vogue just depending on the people that are shouting from the rooftops that that's the most important thing. I think at CTS, we try to like illuminate the athlete and know that like not one zone is gonna win you a race or like get you to the finish line here. We need to touch on all of them to round you out as an athlete. But at the end of the day, for a lot of trail races, now this is like less so um for the sub-ultra, you know, trail races um that you would typically do. But I still think in general, it's important to have a large percentage of your total training volume be in zone two, because that's where you know your mitochondrial density is gonna come from. That's going to allow you to, you know, train harder and recover quicker. Um, it's gonna allow you to um, you know, increase your total volume of training, which, if you're doing it in a sustainable way, is going to allow you the you know opportunity to push up the rest of your zones to a certain degree. But you also need to, in theory, if you were to like see your training as a house, you can pull your training up from the top and use you know those high-end zones to a certain degree, and you can also push up from the bottom, but you need to be doing both of those things to round out your fitness because if you've you only train, you know, um four hours a week and you're trying to get ready for you know a 23K, that's not gonna be enough training to allow you to sustainably hold an intensity for a long enough time and or recover from the first half of the race to be able to finish hard for the second half of the race. But you also need to have all of those gears to handle all those climbs. And so you need to be doing that high intensity work as well. So I think if any person is gonna be dying on a hill of like you need to do zone two training, or someone's saying zone two training doesn't matter at all, I would question them and be like, well, why do you think that? Because certainly we need to do enough volume to allow yourself the mitochondrial density to handle all the workouts at those higher zones. But then we also need to do enough work in those higher intensity zones so that you know you can handle the demands of the race and kind of build out your ceiling and you know your your potential, so to speak, um, on that other end too.

Manitou Incline And Specific Strength

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Let's say we're getting ready for like a theoretical race. Let's say it's uh, let's give it to like September. Let's say I'm getting ready for the Pikes Peak Marathon or the Pikes Peak Ascent, right? Yep. Do you do, and obviously I know this depends on the athlete. Do you do everything based off of block? Like, will you do kind of like what you're describing before? You're talking about the the more or less the theoretical pyramid where you've got your zone one and zone two at your base and you build your pyramid up to the top. Yep. Are you doing base block after base block, throwing in VO2 blocks and then tempo blocks? Like how how would you how do you put that stuff together for let's say a novice or someone that's just trying to get into it and um or even someone that's more of an intermediate athlete?

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Totally. Great question. So at CTS, we typically focus on block training. Um, kind of in the research now, there's a little bit more of an edge towards, you know, block training being a little bit more beneficial, as well as allows for, you know, specific periods of periodization where, you know, you're not just doing a little bit of everything. We're like really getting into the details of like hitting this VO2 max block, which allows, you know, um enough stimulus to make sure that we're seeing some benefit there. Um, but at the same time, I I think it also depends on the context of the race. Because if you have someone, you know, that's trying to, you know, beat a specific time at Pike's Peak Marathon, for example, you're gonna need to, you know, not only find a different gear, but also be ready for the grade changes that come in that race. Because as you know, like the W's are really, really steep. And you know, even if you measure things out well, you're probably gonna be at a fairly high lactate level at that point. And then it flattens out for a little bit in kind of that middle stage there. And that requires a gear shift and the ability for your body to process that lactate. And so I think there's there's something to be said for maybe mixing in some, you know, mixed intensity there and kind of working on not only physically but mentally preparing yourself for that kind of different feelings of, you know, feeling a little bit like full of lactate, so to speak, um, full of hydrogen ions, like like having it burn um and then trying to settle in and kind of shuttle that out, so to speak, versus, you know, if you were just focusing on a on a threshold block, maybe you don't have kind of the specificity of knowing what that specifically feels like on race day. So there's certainly some benefits to polarizing things, like having some mixed intensity in there. But I think in general, um, we'd like to see, you know, having those blocks so that you're creating that stimulus over a period of time and allowing you to um, you know, stress the body in that way, get those benefits, feeling fitter in that way, and then moving on to something else.

Over-Unders And Lactate Shuttling

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Just all right. So I've got like a far out there question for you. This is like leads me to something I was like, yeah, I I don't know, you're a nerd. So and I'm a nerd too. So like there's things like I feel like we can both appreciate. So I was stalking on Strava, I was on the incline the other day, and I met a dude that ran like a 25-minute incline, which is yeah, that's solid. That's that's solid. I was stalking his Strava and like his mile PR that he had like just done like a week ahead of time was like a 630 mile. And I'm like, how does that correlate? Like that you should be able to run, like if you're doing a 25-minute incline, you have to run, be able to run like a five-something mile. Not like I mean, I don't know. I obviously that's like a completely different thing, but like I've kind of put together like being able to buffer lactate, and some people just have that ability to climb and be able to have those higher like threshold zones for like climbing versus like running on the flats, like what's the correlation there, or like what's your your scientific explanation for something like that?

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Yeah, my guess would be either they're not just a runner and they they have some sort of other, whether it's um, you know, uh primary sport that they're doing that's also high intensity. Um, because typically when you see someone that has a really good incline time, so for example, like back in the day, now that we're in the winter Olympics, like Apollo Ono used to do the incline all the time. He was based out of the Colorado Springs um, you know, Olympic training center. And that was kind of one of his go-to methods of like getting in a high-intensity workout. Now that guy's not running a whole lot of miles, and I would imagine that his mile time wouldn't be very impressive just because he doesn't have the biomechanical efficiency and potentially kind of that um like neuromuscular turnover and that feeling of you're like knowing how to move coordinated in an efficient fashion for you know a flat mile, um, that maybe he has, you know, still that capacity to handle something really high intensity that's hiking based, that doesn't require, you know, as much you know, efficiency and movement, but you can just kind of grind it out hands on knees, um, that wouldn't necessarily translate to the mile. So my guess would be that that person isn't just a runner, because if they're a runner that mix up mountain work and some flat work, running a 25 on the incline should translate at least to faster than a 630.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah. It's so I dude, yeah, I was scratching my head. I'm like, how is this possible? This is that.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Which tangent, which is why I love the incline, because every man from and every woman from every sport goes up there and and really rips, and it has you know not a lot of specificity to a whole lot of you know uh sports out there, but it's just a great test of fitness. And so I just love that you can like be next to a guy in Jordan's who's working just as hard as you and you're like in your trail shoes, and we're all just like having a good time working hard together. Everybody's dying.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Yeah, it's yeah, yeah. I'm just getting into that part of my season where I'm starting to play a little more on there, or it's part of my training where I'm starting to play on there a little bit. And then yeah, I happened to meet this dude the other day and I was like, wow, that's so interesting. Like, yeah, like you said, you would equate that to like a much I mean, well, and that's why you see skiers do really well. Like the ski mountainers, like Cam. I mean, like Cam is very fit, don't get me wrong, but like his ability to run at like four like high four-minute grade adjusted paces on things, like that's insane. And I guess he's just very well trained in uphill stuff and it makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

So yeah, yeah, he chose the right sports for sure. He's yeah, he's gifted at it, he enjoys spending a lot of time uphill. Um, because I think if you were to have him race, you know, uh a top collegiate runner in a half marathon, he would probably lose. But if you got those guys on the mountains, he would be waiting for the guy at the top of the mountain for an hour. So, like, yeah, there's definitely strengths and kind of specificity to training, which by the way, go Cam. He's about to light it up here in a little bit.

Tactics, Confidence, And Fast Starts

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Yeah, yeah, dude, how crazy is that? Like, I don't know, it's uh it's it's a whole other conversation, but yeah, it's pretty pretty cool at Cam's go and and Ada as well. And and uh yeah, just amazing. Yeah, I was looking for him at the uh looking trying to find him on the on the television watching the uh Olympic ceremony. It was so cool. Um shifting gears really back to something you said when we were talking about Pike's Peak and like training on the W's and stuff like that. And this is just out of this is a little bit of a more left field question, but like I I guess what I'm trying to understand better is getting athletes to hit those higher lactate zones and then being able to transition more into a steady state off of something like the W's. Like, what kind of workouts do you prescribe for something like that? I'm sure because I know a lot of there's a lot of collar springs and front range people that listen to this podcast that do the Pikes Peak Marathon. So I'm sure they'd be interested in learning, like, oh, what's a great workout? Or something that I can do.

VO2 Max Myths And Trail Success

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah, so something that um is popularized more in kind of the cycling sphere. Um, you'd hear it, you know, called maybe an over-under or a lactate shuttling workout. Um, I know there's there's also some um some road marathoners, specifically in Kenya, that like to do the this kind of work. Um, it could be also something that would look like a fart lick. It's it's a workout where you would start doing, you know, a higher intensity interval followed directly by, you know, so let's say, for example, you're doing a zone five like VO2 max rep. You're doing it for um, let's say two to three minutes, um, followed directly by not a recovery interval, but by you know, bringing down the intensity to either threshold and or steady state, so zone four, zone three, for not like a significant amount of time, but enough time to allow your body to process that lactate. Because at VO2 max intensity, um you're producing lactate faster than you can shuttle it out of your system. And so it's you know a very unsustainable intensity for people. But then when you're bringing it down to, you know, threshold or even more so steady state, then you know you're still working hard, your breathing rate's higher. It's not like it's like a totally comfortable effort, but it's in that more sustainable zone to where you're starting to shuttle that lactate and able to handle it over time, that intensity, before you go about that recovery interval. And so that process of going from the VO2 max portion to that steady state portion is really critical, not only from like a physiological sense to where you know you're you're settling back in, you're starting to shuttle that lactate, like the effort's starting to become more sustainable, but also mentally, because you know, your body's screaming at you. You think you have a recovery interval coming up, but instead, like you switch to a slightly easier gear, which is still challenging. And so your body's like, what the heck is happening? Like, I thought we were gonna be chilling out here. Similarly, when you're at the top of the W's, as we can both relate to, like your body is still screaming at you, and there has to be that period of telling yourself, okay, let's relax. Like, this is still hard, I'm still breathing hard, but it's not as steep. I'm gonna find a new rhythm and we're gonna move on from this and and and you know, push on with confidence that my body's gonna come around eventually. And so I think it's a it's a it's a popular workout that that cyclists do because, as you know, in like the tour, for example, like when people make a move in a break, you have to be ready to really surge and go at that VO2 max intensity before. Before you get to the point where that break has happened, and you know, you and the rest of the cyclists in the break are no longer in sight, and then you can start to settle back into something that's a little bit more sustainable. And that's something that happens super often in cycling, and happens probably more often in mountain running than it does in road running, just because of all of the moves and the dynamics of navigating different grades and navigating like different um climbs, which then you have a descent where you're still breathing heavy, but you're settling into a new rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Well, I think that's a really good, I mean, that's a good back pocket workout to have. And the only reason I say that too is because like, I don't know, you raced the golden trail series a few years ago. Dude, all of these short trail races start out like stupid fast, and then people fall into a rhythm, guys fall off, and then obviously your your front of the front guys are gonna hold that stuff and keep moving, but people will settle into a pace more or less, but like people just go unnaturally fast off the off the line, right? To establish a position. It's almost a great workout to have to be able to not freak your body out when you get off the line and to find a good, uh maybe find a good position, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Well, and mentally not to get worried too. It's like, yes, this is really hard right now, but I know I need to stick in this group and it's gonna get easier because you know, if someone's competing for the win, certainly they should feel like they have the fitness to be able to hang, but it's just as much of a mental game to stay in it with that group. Because when you're in it with that front group and you start believing more and more as the race goes on, then that belief can carry you across the line knowing that you have that extra gear. Versus if you get dropped at the start, it's hard to mentally regroup and be like, well, I can still compete for that. And so it's a great physical workout, but also a mental reps workout to just allow yourself that opportunity to kind of wrestle with what is and isn't sustainable and knowing that you've done that in training to where on race day you have that in your back pocket. When someone makes a move, it's like, no, I can hang with you, I can stick it out. And then once you do that, the confidence that comes from that is just you know huge.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah.

unknown 46:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

The mental component, dude, that's another thing that I don't feel like is talking. I mean, we that's that should probably be the topic of one of our of one of our shows going forward. Like doing like just a mental because I don't know, I feel like especially for trail running, whether it's on the short trail or ultraside, like there's mental battles on so many different aspects of the sport. That's a good, yeah, it's a good topic. I'm gonna put that one down.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

And and kind of jumping off of the golden trail series, I think one of the reasons why you you find that a lot of you know, Anna Gibson's and Lauren Gregory's coming from like the mile and the 3K like success in college or having success in ultras. Not only is like the intensity similar and kind of that just like the build of an athlete and their strengths physiologically match up well to like the shorter trail races. But I think also some of that like tactical, like mental strength that comes from those races that have a bunch more dynamics happening in them versus like the 10K where like everyone's just hitting that same pace, and then at the end it's just you find out like who's a little bit fresher and fitter, and yes, there's a little bit more tactics. But like the mile and the 3K, especially indoors, like that's where like moves are being made and you have to be a tactician. And both of those ladies like had a bunch of success in that in college, and I think mentally that really translates like to the schemo to like the the Golden Trail World Series where there's a bunch of attacks going on, and you have to be one, confident in your fitness, but two, willing to either take risks or know that you have something in your back pocket when a move is made.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Interesting. All right, so I got I got an Ana Gibson question for you because she's just like such an outlier, and maybe that that's the answer to the question in the sense where it's very interesting to me that an athlete can obviously grow up in like Jackson. So she grew up skiing, grew up competing, but is so dominant on the roads or on the track, really, so dominant in trail running, and then really her first go-around in schemo is able to rise above all these women that have been doing this for such a long time, get picked on this team. Is is she just an outlier, or is she just a a grouping of just like amazing training from from day one and has just built this amazing base? Like, what is what do you think that is? I find that so interesting.

Volume, Genetics, And Sustainability

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah, I definitely because I don't know her and I don't know her background super well, the the last thing I want to do is simplify her to say she's just super fit and like that's all she has going for. Because clearly, you know, if someone is trained at a high level and competed at a high level for this long, there has to be a dedication to the craft. There has to be an understanding of your of your body and willingness to ride the highs and the lows well when training is going well and not going as well. And there has to be a crazy amount of belief and competitiveness to be able to walk up to this new stage and all of a sudden like say that you belong and then belong in that sphere. So I definitely don't want to take it for granted the fact that she's doing something incredibly amazing, even though clearly she has some God-given gifts that are really helping her excel. Um, but I do think, you know, there's something to the type of races that she chooses, having that high-end engine, you know, the ability to process a lot of lactate all at once, but still have the ability physically to handle enough volume to, you know, match those, you know, high periods of intensity with being able to recover from those for long periods, find that kind of steady state rhythm, and then be able to push out another really hard effort again, like you would be doing in schemo or, you know, going from a climb to descent. Um, so I think it's a combination of factors. And ultimately, you know, for someone who's as special as an athlete as her, it requires both kind of that mental component of being ultra competitive, ultra confident in what you have going on, you know, the commitment to the craft and doing it consistently, you know, loving all of those things, but then also, you know, of course, being talented and being uniquely gifted for the types of intensities and durations of races that she's doing.

unknown 50:07

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Now, would she, I'm just gonna, this is out of pure curiosity because I do not know this. I and I would love to know. I have to have her on after the Olympics because I'm just so curious, like do like what her VO2 max even is, and like what because like my question is this is not so much Anna, this is just for an athlete in general, off of you know, kind of the pyramid concept. You don't necessarily have to have like a 75, like let's say you have a 65 VO2 max. I'm just throwing a number out there. Which for women is really awesome, which is like you could still buffer lactate like crazy, right? Like you could still like all of those things. Um, yeah, you could still be like what I'm trying to say is like you don't have to have the highest VO2 max in the world to still be amazing at a sport, right? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Definitely. And I think it it then requires different strategies and tactics on race day depending on the type of person that you are. Um, I think for someone um that maybe doesn't have the highest VO2 max, it requires them to be incredibly efficient and in terms of their output of energy on race day, as well as you know, a commitment to pacing out the race well and not going with moves. Because I think the higher VO2 max that you have, and you know, the the um you know, more high intensity um uh emphasis you have in your training, you should be able to handle a bunch of big moves, big surges. And, you know, if you were a track runner, like you're the guy who has the kick, you're the Jordy Beamish in the steeplechase that can kick down seven guys with 200 meters to go. Um, and you're not the person that's you know staying in fourth and fifth and trying to be as efficient as possible and just like hanging on and finding a groove and a rhythm. That's the person that's typically a little bit more zone two, zone three oriented, very aerobically efficient, has a bun of a bunch of mitochondria. And then you have the people that come along that have both, and those are the people that win gold medals.

Coaching Changes And Long Timelines

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Well, dude, like, all right, so we're at my brain is all over the place in these conversations. I love you, I appreciate you being able to like field these questions because I always uh it's like just this is out of pure interest for me. Like Anton is one that's an interesting one to me because like I he's always been very outspoken that his VO2 max is at 60 or below, like it's not insanely high. Yeah, he's still one of the best to ever do it in his time and still is an amazing athlete. And above tree line, really in all in the things that he chooses to do, he's very like he's always been very competitive. Yeah, but he just he's a great example that like you don't need, especially in trail and mountain running, you don't need an insanely high VO2 max to be able to perform at an extreme. And like, dude, he's running with people like Killian, who is has has to have like a stupid high VO2, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Like I his is one of the highest ever recorded, his is over 90. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

How crazy is that? So it really doesn't it matters, but it's like you said, it's a it matters in the context.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Totally. The higher the distance, especially in trail running, the less important VO2 max is for success and performance. One, because the number of variables that you need to get right is so much greater. So you need to be good at handling, taking in, you know, a bunch of calories, you need to be on top of your hydration, you need to be extremely mentally strong, you need to be an aerobic champion, you know, able to handle a ton of volume. Your muscles need to be able to handle that as well and be very durable in that way. Um, but then once you get down into the 23Ks, you know, the shorter distance, the circle series races, a lot of those variables are taken out of the equation. Yes, you still have to be an awesome descender. Like, yes, you still need to handle technical terrain, but like you can just punch that climb. And if you can punch that climb way harder than someone else, you have a 12-minute gap and that's a lot of time to play with, you know, versus versus you know, you may, you know, be 12 minutes behind in an ultra at 50K, but that next person, you know, that person in front of you maybe doesn't know how to fuel well. They hit a really rough patch, and you're just like cruising along, doing your own thing. It doesn't really matter that you're with them, you know, then and you know, you're just all the more durable and able to handle just the ebbs and flows of of just the climbs and the descents, and you know, it doesn't take too much out of you. Interesting, dude.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

So by the systems, like the the our systems are so interesting, like the way people can develop their aerobic systems. It's like totally it's funny. I had an interesting conversation with a um a professional uh Nordic skier a while back, and I'm on the podcast and from Alaska, and he always like made the joke. He's like, trial runners don't know how to train. He's like, You guys go so hard. He's like, I guess because Nordic skiers always come from they're all very heart rate training based, and they just do they have gigantic aerobic bases, right? Um yeah, he's like trial runners, you guys go way stupid hard in training. He's like, You don't have to do that, and I was like, Oh, well, it's just interesting.

CTS Shoutouts And Closing

SPEAKER_00 55:11

So, yeah, yeah. I I think it really just depends on the type of runner you are. Like, you know, we're still finding, you know, people are having success in, you know, 50K's and below, uh off of, you know, 60 miles a week or less, and you're having people that are doing 120 and being successful because you know, those people may need different things, not only from an injury prevention perspective, but also from a you know, totality of training and in the types of you know, the amount of intensity that people can handle. Um, because I know there's a lot of athletes that I work with, like I can't give the same amount of total time and intensity, even though you know someone in in another counterpart athlete might be very similar in fitness because you know, physically they're gonna break down if I give them like a third, you know, VO2 Max workout in a week, versus this other person, you know, I couldn't give them enough training to break them and they can handle it well, but maybe like they aren't as you know high-end gifted. And so we really need to tap into like working on that VO2 Max and they can handle all that training. Um, and at the end of the day, you know, the different styles still come out in the wash to being fairly similar on race day.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

So interesting. Is a lot of that just genetic, like what you're born with, more or less, or is it I mean, obviously it's trainable, but you're just take take like because dude, I yeah, like you said, like you see a lot of athletes like that run 120 miles a week, and it's like, oh my god, like that's like you know, that that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

Yeah, some of it is, but some of it is also, you know, trainable and something you can slowly ramp up to. Like, you know, if you're doing consistently, you know, just to keep it in miles' sake, like doing 80 miles a week consistently, then you can probably handle 90 miles a week that next year. Um, and you slowly build from there. And there's also a lot of things, like we talk about all of the like life stress variables. There's probably a lot of tweaking that can go on in that athlete's life to make it a little bit easier to recover, handle that load. And at the end of the day, you know, in terms of the long-range scope of an athlete, you need to be, you know, doing it in a way that hopefully is fulfilling for you as well. Because, you know, at the end of the day, I always tell my athletes, like, I want you to be enjoying this process, and I'd rather take 10% of training off the table to keep that happening because I want you to be doing it for a very long time, because that's where we're gonna see the benefit. We're not gonna see the benefit from you doing like 20 more miles a week this week, if you're gonna be like totally pissed off at me because you're training way too much and not enjoying your life. Like, there needs to be a balance and there needs to be an understanding that, like, like we talked about early on in this conversation, that all of these things come into concert to create this training process and hopefully the fitness gains that we want to see. And if you know, we're working too hard on the training side of things and you know, you're not hanging out with your wife and kids, and like that's causing a bunch of stress, like we need to figure that out and find a way to do that in a sustainable way.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Process over outcome, dude. That's something that's been playing in my mind a lot lately. I like that the light, like that thing. One last thing before we get going. Can you just talk like just you don't have to give go crazy in depth, but like one of the things that drive me crazy are people that switch coaches, and I've just this is something I've just observed recently with friends. People will switch coaches and like expect immediate outcomes. Yeah, I'm like, dude, it doesn't work that way. Like it takes a long, long time to like, and if you change a coach, like you have to you have to incorporate into a whole new system. Like it's like a kind of a kind of a different type of thing. Can you talk about that a little bit? Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

One, I think it's totally normal to change up coaches, like if you're in a season of of life where you feel like a change would be beneficial. So I don't want to, you know, bash people that are like going and and turning the corner on their career and want to try to try something different. But that being said, I totally agree with you that like the training process doesn't allow for this like new style of training. One, to show up in your fitness gains, and two, to you know, materialize and you know, seeing that like maybe greater benefit from this new coach for maybe like four months to a year and a half. Like it really depends on like how much many tweaks are happening. Hopefully, that earlier coach isn't screwing things up. And so, you know, if things are horrific and we're going from horrific to good, then like obviously you're gonna see some big changes there. But if it's like a solid coach, maybe just like time for something different personality-wise, or you know, they're they're moving and they want an in-person coach, for example, but you know, both coaches are great and they have similar philosophies, then you're probably not gonna see a heck of a whole lot of change there. Um, but maybe just a fresh perspective and maybe slightly different changes in, you know, like the day-to-day schedule and structure of things, then you're probably not gonna see, you know, changes in, you know, six months or or something like that. And so I think, you know, when I take on a new athlete, one, I don't want to ever take credit for their success. I am in their corner and and want to help them along in their own journey. But I think two, it's uh it's a bit of a bummer to sometimes hear that, you know, a coach is rah-rawing, like, yeah, like this is my new athlete, and we're totally crushing it. It's like, well, you probably like didn't like one, because a coach doesn't really have like that much of an impact to that person actually crushing it, is that person crushing it? Like, yes, we are part of that support system and we can make a difference, but I want to always put the the shine on the athlete. And and two, um, it's gonna take a long time for any sort of training adjustment to materialize.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Yeah, yeah, it's a process, man. Process over outcome. It takes you know, it takes a long time. Um, dude, I think it's a good place to, unless you have anything to add, I think it's a good place to uh put a pin in those one. It's a great conversation, dude. I appreciate you as always fielding all the million things that come to the top of my mind because you're a brain, dude. I love how you nerd out like I do. It's always uh there's always cool, cool, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

I appreciate the rapid fire. And yeah, I do this all the time with my coaching colleagues, so it's no different, and I'm happy to do it so other people can hear the way we that we nerd out a little bit. Sweet, sweet, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I I gotta hit, I gotta, I gotta put hands up. CTS absolutely killed it this weekend, dude. Oh my gosh. Like, heck yeah. Wow. Like, just I mean, dude, Jennifer Lickner, holy crap! Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

It was so cool to see. Um, her confidence and in just kind of taking it and and pushing with Ann right on her back um was pretty awesome. Um, to see Abby Hall, even though it wasn't much of an improvement of place to run like 23 minutes faster was was so cool. Shea Aquilano, big improvement there. Riley Brady um had a bit of a rough go, um, but still would have been on the podium last year with her, I think it was ninth place finish. Um, so yeah, and Molly Seidel, obviously, super awesome. Um so yeah, shout out to the 100k women and then Adam Peterman coming through and and and crushing it. Cade Michael, um, yeah, a lot of great CTS athletes out there. Yeah, yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Cade, I feel like Cade is a weapon, dude. And he's like totally underrated. Cade is gonna be has the potential to be a huge name in the sport.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Um yup, he his his engine and his efficiency when he runs, like him just like watching him on a live stream, that dude floats. It's it's really cool to watch. Um, but yeah, shout out to all the non-uh pro CTS athletes too. Um, a lot of people out there, and yeah, some good camaraderie, whether it's a CTS athlete or not. Yeah, you guys killed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

It was uh really successful weekend. So, dude, thank you so much for your time, as always. And uh I can't wait to do the next one. Have fun in the rest of your Midwest cold winter. Dude, you did you know it's like it's like 65 degrees in Colorado Springs today?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

I know. I have so many CTS athletes from Colorado Springs that are like, why the heck did you move? It's because it is great to be in Michigan with my friends and my girlfriend. Um, and things are warming up here. We're we have a 45 degree day, which is like amazing for us. So we'll take it. Dude, Wolverines, man. Are you are you following Michigan basketball at all?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah. Yaks and the boys were we're ranked number one. I I felt like I was a good omen. I went to Arizona, they lost twice, and now Michigan is number one. I just need to visit Arizona more often, and maybe we'll keep winning, and Arizona keeps losing.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

Dude, I I hope so, man. I think I I big fan of Dusty May. He uh came from my alma mater and uh Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was a FAU before. And then uh yeah, so big fan. So we'll see, man. We will see. Have a yeah, thank you. Thanks again. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and uh be in touch. Yeah. All right, sounds good. What a fun chat. Hope you guys enjoyed that one. Um, as much as Addison did fielding my nine million questions that kind of seem to come out of nowhere. So uh guys, the best way you could support Addison is to give him a follow on Instagram. If you are interested in coaching, you can find him in the show notes at Addison Smith, uh, both on Instagram and CTS. He is a Carmichael training systems coach. It's what he does professionally. Um and if you have questions for him, uh shoot them his way. I'm sure he'd be he'd love to hear from you all and uh be stoked to uh be stoked to um you know answer and feel anything you guys got. Um thanks for tuning in. And if you've been enjoying these episodes and some of the stuff we've been putting out into the world, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. Hit that subscribe button on YouTube. We are trying to grow that channel as well. Um we're getting there. That's where you can watch us on 4K and see my beautiful face. Uh really appreciate you guys tuning in. Have a great rest of your week, and uh thanks so much.