The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#171 - Aimee Kohler, Founder & RD of The Running Kind
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Trail running says it loves the outdoors, but are we willing to change how we race to protect the places we run? I’m joined by Aimee Kohler race director of The Running Kind, a small but fast-growing organization putting on carbon-neutral trail races across Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and upstate New York, including the brutally steep Climate For Climate in the Catskills. We talk about why the Northeast is still underrated for mountain running, and why “smaller mountains” can deliver bigger technical challenges than people expect.
We also go straight at the uncomfortable stuff: the UTMB stones ecosystem, private-equity vibes in a sport that’s supposed to have soul, and the weird reality of carbon “offset fees” being pushed onto runners. Aimee shares what she’s learned from working big events earlier in her career, then building a different model focused on accessibility, community, and trail stewardship. If you’ve ever wondered whether grassroots races can coexist with mega-events, you’ll hear a candid take on why the big leagues still depend on local race directors and first-time trail racers.
Then we get practical. Aimee breaks down how carbon neutrality actually works for an event: measuring emissions, submitting annual reduction plans, choosing vetted offset projects, and making real upgrades like moving from gas to solar power on race day. We also unpack permits and wilderness rules in the Catskills, why public transit matters for city runners, and why a meaningful race experience beats another free shirt every time. Climate For Climate takes place August 16, and The Running Kind is also adding new events like a backyard ultra and the Basilisk.
If you care about sustainable trail running, carbon-neutral races, and protecting public lands while the sport explodes in popularity, listen now. Subscribe, share this with a running friend, and leave a review so more runners find the conversation.
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Welcome And Meet Amy Kohler
SPEAKER_02What's up guys? Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I am so excited to bring you an episode. I am joined by Amy Kohler. Amy is the race director of the running kind based in upstate, I guess you could say upstate Pennsylvania, kind of the tri-state area between Pennsylvania and New York and New Jersey, where Amy puts on a whole slew of amazing, uh both short and long trail events. But the crux of the business is based around sustainable trail running. Um, she is a zero carbon-based company, um, and it's kind of leading the way in our sport for creating the zero carbon events. And uh yeah, she's just a great voice in the sport, a great mind in the sport, and uh someone I was just really excited to have a conversation with. We talked about the business itself, why she founded it, what she wants to get out of it, the types of races that she has. She's got a whole slew of amazing mountain races based in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and upstate New York, uh, particularly around the Catskills. We got into why that area is so special uh in the Catskills, uh, Catskill Mountain Park, if you will. Um, it's a very special area of the uh American Northeast. And uh yeah, we also riffed on the sport a whole lot. Uh I definitely had some hot takes, and uh, she was kind enough to uh listen through with what I had to say. It was uh it was definitely uh a great episode, and I just really appreciate uh her support and uh you know her her joining joining the pod. So without further ado, I hope you guys get a kick out of this one, Amy Kohler, the race director of the running kind. Ladies and gentlemen, we live all right, Amy from the Running Kind. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_00It's going. I'm super stoked to be here. I love that it's called the Steep Stuff Podcast because I love anything super gnarly and steep mountain stuff. So I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02We've got a we've got a lot to connect on today. You put on some sick races. I I love the area. I actually grew up in uh outside of, well, I can't say fully grew up. I for up until like seventh or eighth grade, I I lived in the northeast. So I definitely have spent a lot of time around some of the places that you put on races in the northeast, which I'm I'm excited to talk about. I think the uh the cat skills specifically is just like absolutely slept on uh as an area for mountain running. So we got we got a lot of a lot to chat about today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I know when we first connected and you said you were from the northeast, I was like, hell yeah, because so much of the like trail running, you know, across the US, I feel like is concentrated out west, or at least the focus of it. And I feel like the trail running in the northeast is just like never gets the credit it deserves.
SPEAKER_02No, not at all. I think it's actually we'll we'll we'll talk a lot about we'll dive deep into this, but like, yeah, I think I mean I I'm a snob in the sense that like yeah, I live in the West and I'm always talking about like Western races and stuff, because that's where that's kind of where the scene is. But listen, there's a there's a playground in in the northeast. I mean, and we'll we'll talk about that. But like I have Tom Hooper on all the time. He's like a contemporary on this on this podcast, and he and I are always talking about ways to uh kind of continue to just let people know that there's there's a whole playground in the northeast and there's things to do. And I think some of the hardest races in the entire country uh are probably out there in a lot of ways. I think you could blame it on the brands too. I think the brands love to play in the Pacific Northwest, California, Boulder, uh, Salt Lake now. But yeah, it's I think they'll slowly start to kind of trickle into the Northeast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so too. I feel like now that the sport is starting, we're seeing that growth a little bit more, and people are really in their like doing hard shit era. So I feel like we're hopefully going to see some of that trickling out east a little bit more when people are trying to find new ways to push themselves that they maybe haven't before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. What I mean, what do you think about it? I mean, we've got now the Cirque series in the Northeast, we've got uh now the U there's a US Skyrunner series, which is gonna have a few races. The final will be a Kismet. I should probably shouldn't have said that. That's like that hasn't come out yet. Um there's uh Whiteface is a big name now, like that's a big deal. I mean, and you've got your own races, obviously, throughout the you know, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey or sorry, New Jersey, New York. Um Yeah, what do you think? I mean, do you think it's uh like it's gonna continue to grow?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I do. I feel like um, you know, as we're seeing, I think the sport develop in new ways, that you know, a lot of the population lives out east, and it's just not feasible to get out west to travel to races, you know, for all the races. Um, and so I think that as we grow, we're going to see more kind of splitting of series in both the east and the west that people are able to participate. Um I think it makes sense too, like financially, if we're trying to make the sport more accessible, to not require travel to, you know, all the races being in one area, um, so that more people can like dip their toes into mountain running in different ways.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, spot on. Well, and I think that's a good, that's a good segue into the running kind and talking about some of the races that you have. Because you have a specific race that's a climate for climate for climate, by intended. Like that. Um, but like even talking about more so some of the, you know, uh the environmental and carbon footprints people have traveling to these races. Like, dude, before we before we got on this call, I was just looking at I was I was thinking about all right, what am I gonna do in June? Because my schedule just got turned upside down and for June. And I'm like, all right, maybe I'll go out east and just race Cirque Series Killington or I'll do Cirque Series Canon or something. And I'm like looking at flying out from where I'm at in Colorado to Burlington for, and I was like, dude, it's like a thousand bucks just for the just for a ticket back and forth. Not to mention obviously the the environmental impact of it's a lot, it's expensive and it's environmentally taxing. So yeah, I'm kind of more into the whole, you know, obviously it's great to travel for like a race a year, you know, but like if you can do more stuff in your like local area uh that's like not crazy far away, it's almost a better thing, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree. I mean, I was I was actually just talking to Tom about this, and that like, you know, I think all of us have these different goals that we're going after. And it's okay to want to travel for some of those goals. But I think it's the decisions that we make in between those that really, you know, shape our season and our footprint a little bit more. And so for me, it's it's more about okay, like, you know, my goal is to qualify for OCC this year. That's gonna be a huge footprint for me potentially in 2027. How much local racing can I do until that point so that I'm supporting my like local grassroots organizations on the East Coast before I make that endeavor um, you know, overseas. And so I think we can have a balance of the two and like see that thrive and grow um so that we're not having these crazy financial burdens and footprints, especially as we see like, you know, everything is becoming more expensive. And that includes like putting on a race, you know, like even permitting in Pennsylvania right now has like skyrocketed.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so you know, I think we'll see those race prices going up as well as as everything is. Um and yeah, I mean, being able to make it accessible and keep it accessible for people while continuing to like grow the sport, I think is is key, at least for me.
UTMB Growth And Carbon Offsets
SPEAKER_02I do have a random question for you. This is a totally aside uh of where I was going. I I was just randomly looking on uh I was like just looking at races in the northeast, and I just saw UTMB actually acquired or just created a race in Pennsylvania. Um what's your take on this? I mean, I've I've got to know a lot of race directors in the Northeast now. You're you're now added to my my repertoire and group of of you know Northeast race directing friends. What do you think about this? I'm like I I was kind of surprised to see a race in Pennsylvania of all places. So it must mean the Northeast scene is growing and is legitimate.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I have such a tough time with this, you know, and I I'll be as unfiltered as possible, but and this is not a got you question.
SPEAKER_02I want to hear your your take on it.
SPEAKER_00I like, you know, I started the running kind in 2022 and like have given my blood, sweat, and tears into building it. Um and we're still very small organization. Uh I have not worked with UTMB in any capacity, but I don't love the idea of a big brand buying out smaller races. Um, you know, I think like I get it, I get the model that they're creating, but I I don't necessarily think it's super feasible for people. Um, whether you're on the race director side or the runner side, like for me, someone who's going after a top three spot to qualify, I'm just going to one race. But for people that aren't podium contenders, it's like this whole thing with the stones, and like you really have to commit to like so much um to be able to even get a chance to going. And I I don't necessarily think that that's a great model. It's a great way to make money, but I don't know if it's a great way to to necessarily make this sport as inclusive as possible.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't agree more. I the reason I ask is I've been thinking about this a lot lately. So I work in corporate finance, and I think the reason I'm always turned off by the UTMB thing is because I can smell bullshit a mile away when it comes to financial stuff. And I just see an like it's I look at running as a soul sport. That is what this is. This isn't, I mean, obviously there's a professional side to it. I am an athlete in the sport. I I do get paid to run, and I it's great. But at the same side of it, I see the UTMB thing, and I see the stones, and I see the way they have this structured from a business perspective, and it is private equity backed. And I see how much damage, and this is a hot take, but I do see how much damage private equity has done to most of the world. The reason we can't have nice things in in life right now, I think a lot of it has to do with private equity. I could say I could point to mathematically, a lot of it has to do with private equity. So when I see that in the sport that I love so much, it's a little frustrating, it's a little hard for me to support that. And that's fine. Like UTMB, do your thing, get your bag. By all means, I just won't personally race those races because for me, I see that as a uh I think there's other places where I would rather celebrate or spend my time or spend my money or put my effort into. Um because it's just not, yeah, it's it's very hard for me to support that when I see how much damage private equity does to other aspects of society.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00That's my 100%. I mean, when I like when I was coming out of prior to starting the Running Kind, I worked for Spartan. Um, and so that's like where I got my almost like roots as a race director, and then almost started the Running Kind in spite of like what I was seeing happen at these big corporate races. Um, and so yeah, I agree. I think there's something so special about the trail running community, and it does feel different. Like, you know, I've I've run Grindstone, I I'm planning to run it again. Um it wouldn't be a race that I'm necessarily drawn to if it wasn't potentially gonna get me a spot at OCC. Um, you know, I wouldn't be picking that that race necessarily for any reason other than that. Um, and so yeah, I it's it's not my favorite model. Um, I also like the carbon offsets thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do you think on that? I don't love it. Like, I mean, I'm over here, I'm a super small business, I don't have any employees, like it's me, and I don't get paid. I'm doing it like, you know, for the love of the game. And um we offset every runner that runs with us, we pay for their offsets. Um, and then of course, like offset any other emissions for the running kind throughout the year. And so yeah, I don't love that a brand is putting it on the runners because it just again adds another barrier. Like it's good they're talking about it, it's good it's like at the forefront of the conversation. But yeah, I mean, how much of that is the race structure? I'm like, just do it yourself. Like you're putting on the events, your responsibility.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's a multimillion dollar organization to begin with, and I don't want this podcast to get into like with the nuts and bolts of UTMB's financial.
SPEAKER_00I know we're spiraling.
Why The Running Kind Exists
SPEAKER_02But I but but that aspect, like I don't know. I walked into this conversation. Like, I honestly I did a lot of research on the running kind, but I also wanted to keep it as an open conversation because I feel like with race directors, you guys are so in the know. You understand the heartbeat of the community, and there's just so much to chat about. You know, I don't I don't like too much scripted stuff. So but where where it was going was like, how much of that goes to profit though? Like, do you do are you actually what are you doing with that money on the side of like collecting because I I I know it wasn't super popular with the athletes because they're like, oh, I gotta I gotta pay a tax, another tax on this? Like, what the hell, man? So I don't know. I think you're you're already a multi-million dollar organization. Just find a find a different way than to pass that to the consumer that's already taxed in every which way, shape, or form. Um, you know, I don't know. It's it's it's tricky. And there's nothing wrong. Listen, man, I think OCC, I love UTMB. I tune into all that stuff. Like I do consume all of that stuff because I'm a part of the sport, but at the same time, it's uh it's a very love and take or give and take aspect of it. I'm gonna shift gears. I'm gonna shift gears because I want to talk about you. I want to talk about the running kind, why you started this, when you started it, how you started, like where the idea came from, and kind of your backstory in the sport.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I haven't been running that long, to be honest. I started running in 2019 and was pretty much working for Spartan right out of the gate. And uh, like I had mentioned, yeah, I mean, I really was like going to these big events, and I was a little taken back at how like how many people were going out and enjoying nature and like leaving it in like such a poor state afterwards. Um, and so I was like doing all that at the same time, I was going vegan and like learning about all the environmental impacts of like what we eat, and just kind of went down a rabbit hole of like how can the sport of trail running exist and like people aren't thinking about like how we can approach carbon neutrality within that space? It just seemed like such an obvious pairing to me, as people that like go out and enjoy nature all the time. I would think that that community is gonna care a lot about the environmental impact. Um, and so yeah, I mean, I kind of just started with one race in 2022, and it was great. I mean, it's you know, like I said, we're we're pretty small and we're now just kind of cusping over that, like definitely still smaller, but we're we're getting over 100 runners at each race now and like really starting to grow um and feel that growth in a different way. And so, yeah, I mean, the ultimate goal of what we do is to combine the conversation of climate action in the sport of trail running. Um, and it's interesting because like people that participate in our events, I think either sign up because they just want to run a race or because they're like, oh, this is something different. And regardless of why you sign up, I think you know, those five minutes that we get to talk at the start line, we spend talking about what it means to be carbon neutral. And so hopefully they leave the events learning a little bit more about what that is and how they can choose, you know, how they're spending their money is how they're using their voice in the trail running space. Um, and so that's kind of the cliff notes version of what we're trying to do at the Running Kind.
SPEAKER_02I love it. And since then it's I mean it's grown massively. You've got a whole like portfolio of races, and a lot of them are really interesting, cool courses. Like you've got like really dynamic offerings, and they're like pretty hardy, man. I mean, like short, some a lot of them short trail, but like 2,000 to 3,000 clear. Like you're utilizing your courses in an interesting way. Nothing seems contrived. And I I just like the way you're designing your courses. Um, maybe I don't know, you could talk about a few of them the climate for climate one, the mountain madness, the uh come come on Armageddon. That that one I like the names for these are great.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, I mean, for me, like I love mountain running, that's where my like passion is. And so I was coming from a unique place because my like core community that I had with Spartan also were like really intense hardcore people. And so right out of the gate, I feel like I had an opportunity to like just put on races that like I would want to run, um, which I don't think is maybe the smartest like financial decision to like put on really hard mountain races right away because they're not like super friendly to everyone, but that's just like what I find the most fun. And so we put on the long run first, which is a is a family friendly, like you can come out without any trail experience and like have a great time. It's it's super chill. Um, and then the next year I was like, okay, like we got one under our belts, like I want to do some crazy shit, you know? And so we came up with Command Armageddon, um, which is a single loop 50k in northern New Jersey. And like honestly, like when you think about northern New Jersey, you're like, there's no way it could be that hard. And it is it's gnarly, like it's super technical, like really hyper-technical rocky scrambles, and uh, you know, almost like mini Adirondack feel like big slabs, um, and just like really fun mountain running. And so was really stoked about that race, and in the same year uh decided to put on Climate for Climate. And that was kind of my like, you know, my style of racing. 25K uh with about 5,000 feet and a mix of like ski slope and really sweet single track up in the Catskills. Um it's like a picturesque, you know, setting for a race. And there wasn't any like short trail stuff going on up there. I mean, escarpment, which is a really popular 30k, but nothing really shorter than that. And so I felt like there was kind of an opportunity up in the Catskills to put on something really gnarly and short and and punchy. Um and so yeah, I mean Climate for Climate and Common Art Magendon are definitely like two of our classic, um, classic mountain races.
Catskills Races And Access Challenges
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, like I said, yep, absolutely. Like the course profiles are dope, everything. Let's uh I do want to talk a little bit about the cat skills in general because it's so close to the greater New York area. I mean, it's an upstate, kind of upstate New York, if you will. It's just outside of the Hudson Valley. I got to play out there in the summer a little bit. I was out there visiting family and um got to go run around Hunter Mountain, ran up Hunter Mountain and started from the ski resort. And I was like, damn, dude, I'm surprised there's like no mountain races out here. Obviously, you've got a you've got a spot very close, but like I'm just surprised there's not more short trail stuff because you can really it's I think it's an ample opportunity for race directors because you can capture, you know, the really the greater New York City area. Like there's a giant population of people that live in the area. Like there's got to be somebody interested in trail running that wants to come run a mountain race. It's not that far away, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because like, you know, we're starting to dip into that a little bit. I mean, climate for climate, uh, we've done three times now. And last year was our first year that we really saw like a jump in numbers. And I think it's, you know, like anything, it just takes a little little bit of time to get kind of races on the radar. And now that we like I live about an hour and a half east or sorry, west of New York City in Pennsylvania. Yep. Um, and so I'm not too far. And so this year, my focus is diverting my energy away from like where I'm living and more into New York City and Philadelphia to try and like bridge that gap a little bit because yeah, you're right, like it's not that far. Um, the only issue that we've we've come across is a lot of people in the city don't have cars. So, you know, we're we actually we just found some public transportation accessibility for Command Armageddon, which we haven't had before. Um, and so that opens that race up to a lot more people from the city that don't have vehicles. Um and so now we're kind of looking for ways to do that with climate for climate and like figure out where the most accessible public transit is, or how can we like implement some type of carpooling strategy um to like get people up there?
SPEAKER_02That's a really good idea. I didn't even think about that. I mean, it makes total sense though. Those areas, yeah. If you're living in the city, why would you have a car? My sister lives in Philadelphia. I'm always trying to get her to run run trail races and she's a range runner. Uh lame. Anyway, um the it's it's I don't know, that that whole area is just like interesting to me just because, yeah, like the popular I I don't know, I've been thinking about this and ruminating on it lately because trail running is such a quickly growing aspect of the running scene. It's the fastest growing aspect of the sport in general. Roadrunning seems to be stalled, if you will, and it seems like trail running is exploding as far as outdoor stuff. Do you think it's more the need that folks are looking for community? Do you think it's more people are looking for a challenge? Like, what is it that people are, especially I find it interesting because in the Northeast, it's it's folks in these cities or these largely populated areas that want to are looking for something or looking for a challenge. What do you think it is?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think we're like living in a really tough time right now. And like I do think it's a need for community. Like, I think people are wanting to feel like they're a part of something that's bigger than themselves, um, which is honestly like why I think we're now starting to see more interest in the running kind, is because like not only are we providing the community, but it's also a community of like-minded individuals that like really want to work to protect public land access and restore trails and like you know, prioritize the ground that we're running on. And so I think we're going to start seeing that those communities that are focused on like something greater than just running are the ones that are really going to start growing. Um, but yeah, I mean, I also think just like being able to get out in nature is like and forget about what's going on out in the world for a few hours is something that like we need right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's crazy. Everybody's like glued to their phones or they're they're all worried about what's going on in the world, but right and rightfully so. But it's like, man, if you just get off that phone for a couple of hours and go for a trail run, it's amazing how much better you feel. And it it's I think more and more people are starting to figure that out. That it's you know, if you just kind of escape, you can escape reality in a lot of ways just by you know getting on the trails and and connecting with people too. I think the community aspect is a big thing. I think this is too why we're also starting to see like run clubs explode. It's it's that that need in thriving for community that folks seem to have or be looking for and searching for. It's interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's one thing too that I think for me sticks out about the cat skills and climate for climate is like it's not a lot of people aren't living there. So most people are traveling to that race from a you know, an hour to a few hours away. And as you know, there's no like you don't have cell service up there. You don't have like you're really just out there to enjoy nature. And even the nature that you're enjoying is like pretty rugged up there. It's not like these like really manicured trail networks that are, you know, really populated. And it's it's remote and it's rugged and it it feels like old forest, um, which I think is kind of hard to come by. I mean, even like up in the Adirondacks, like some of those peaks are super overrun, you know, like with tourists and in mud season and it gets a little wild up there. Whereas the Catskills is kind of this untapped opportunity, I think, for for mountain running. I mean, it's really and it's it's really difficult running, you know.
SPEAKER_02Uh I was I was very surprised to see wilderness area there. Cause that's like a that's such like a west a West thing, you know. Like there's not a I mean, outside of like what the White Mountains wilderness and a few other sections in the northeast, there's not a ton of wilderness zones. So I was very surprised to be perusing on the map this past summer was like wilderness zone and and the cat skills, that's like a legit thing. And I I think it's amazing. I'm glad that they protect these lands as well. And it's not just national forest that it's also, you know, you can't go back there on a bike and you can't go back there, you know, on anything that's motorized. And I'm glad that that exists. But yeah, I think that the cat skills are totally slept on. Now, this kind of deviates to the conversation. What does the permitting look like? Because I know a lot of that is um, you know, I guess the upper parts, the the higher parts of the peaks are are all wilderness, from what I understand. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so I mean, our race starts and ends at Bel Air, which is a ski resort. So that's really nice because most of our, I think a lot of the difficulty of the other trail races that occur in the Cat Skills is that the permit limits you to 15 people starting at once. So all of the other races in the Cat Skills start in waves. Um, we don't have to do that because we have a significant amount of mileage before we enter the wilderness area. And so we're able to have a mass start, and then you know, they're climbing 2,000 feet of elevation before they get there. So they really spread out. Um, and so that kind of alleviates a lot of barriers for us um just by starting and ending at the resort. Um, other than that, I mean, the the permitting for us is one, um, it's big Indian. And so it's not too complicated. Um we are, I haven't told anyone this yet. Um, but we are working on a permit um or multiple permits for 2027 to potentially host the first point-to-point hundred-mile race up in the Catskills. Hell yeah. Um, and so that's that's our you know, expansion plan for that race right now, and that will look a lot different than climate for climate 25k. Um but yeah, I mean, I think it's such a beautiful place, and um it just I think that you know, we need to focus on drawing people to a different style of running that you know, it can be just as fun as California carpet. Um, it's just it's different, it's grittier and it's it's you know, it's really hard and gnarly, and it pushes you in different ways, both mentally and physically. So I'm excited to continue climate for climate. I mean, that's my favorite event that we host. Um so yeah, I'm always super stoked for that one.
SPEAKER_02That's so interesting to me because like in the West, like we can't even touch wilderness. Like they won't let you get. You get up to the boundary and then you gotta turn around. So I think it's really cool that they allow you at least to uh at least like you can you kind of go in, you can get your get people in there as long as they're spread out. Because yeah, here they like I've run, I mean, that's kind of our big uh thing. It's like a a big push and pull. I mean, the Wastach, for instance, is a obviously an amazing place for mountain running, but like a lot of the peaks you can't even touch because it's all wilderness zones. And same with Colorado, where I'm at. Like we are lucky to be able to have a race on like Pike's Peak for Lens, like the Pikes Peak Marathon, right? Fortunately, not a wilderness zone, it's National Forest, but like it's one of the few, if only not many of the 14ers, uh most of them are in wilderness zones, so that'll let you touch it.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I almost wonder if like maybe part of it is like from what I've learned in conversations with the permitting agencies in the Catskills, it seems like they're very protective of the races that currently exist, um, which is great. Like, I I think it would be really hard for another organization to come in and get approval to put on a race in the Catskills, um unless it's on private property. And so, because of that, you know, I think that they know there's not a lot of traffic. Um, they're fairly small events, you know, most of them are under 100 people or 150. And so it's not, it's not a crazy impact to the trails. I will say too that all of us that put on races up in the Catskills, we all maintain certain uh sections of trail up in the Catskills as well. And so there is kind of this understanding of, okay, like, you know, we're we're going up and putting on these events. And I think most of us have sections that are on our race courses that now we volunteer through the New York, New Jersey Trail Conference to maintain those sections.
SPEAKER_02Very cool. I I want to deviate a little bit. I'm gonna go to I want to ask you about the carbon offsets and uh that aspect. So I used to work in environmental um like uh I was a consultant at one point in time. And I was very off put by like some of the, I mean, this is like for corporations and stuff like that, by like carbon credits and things like that. I was like, you get behind the, you get you learn some stuff and you're like, man, this is this is strange, like the way everything kind of works. Can you explain like the offsets and stuff like that and how you guys are carbon neutral as a um organization? Like how do you how do you go about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, so our first year we worked with native energy um because we only had one race. It was like pretty simple. Um, and then following that, we started working with the Change Climate Project, and there it's been interesting. Like they don't have, they're working with big corporations, right? So, like when we approached them, I think they were like, hmm, how are we gonna do this? Like, this is different than, and so it's taken us a few years to really like, you know, obviously I'm following all their steps and protocols and and whatnot, but also we're kind of forging our own path in this. Like, how are we figuring this out together? Um, what I really like about the Change Climate Project is it's not just here purchase offsets, you know, it they really make you submit a pretty in-depth plan for reduction each year. And then you update those plans, you know, month over month based on your goals for the year. Um and then they have basically a a carbon offset like directory. So you can go in and see which companies are already approved that they've vetted for you. Um, which it's not a ton, to be honest. Like, which is like slightly concerning. Like, what, you know, how do you, if you're not going through that process, how do you figure out what carbon credits are actually, you know, making the impact that you're looking for? Um, and so it is nice that they take that step out for me and that I can go in and find projects that um, you know, we want to support for that year. Uh, we're actually working on offsetting right now um for 2025. And so I haven't picked the projects for 2025 yet, but uh everything else just got approved. So, like my reduction plans, my measurements, and then um we can submit um like purchases. Like last year we purchased um a solar generator, and so you know, a percentage of your basically footprint can be minimized by when you're reinvesting in products that are lessening your footprint. So we got rid of a gas chain generator, we brought in a solar generator. Um, and so that that's nice too, like as a small business that you know is just starting to turn a profit. Um, that's really helpful because the certification is about$1,000, and then you have to pay for all your offsets on top of that. So, you know, for a bigger organization, I don't think$1,000 is a lot to, you know, to worry about. But for me, it it tends to be a stressor. Um but I think it's important that we set the tone of like if we're, you know, one of the first carbon neutral organizations putting on trail events, I want to make sure that there's a standard for that. Um, you know, for other people to follow and not necessarily just say that they're, you know, aiming for zero carbon. Like, you know, who knows what that means, right?
SPEAKER_02I that's where I was kind of going with this. Like you are one of, if not the first. Have like other organizations reached out to you to get like more information and like how can we, you know, do this as well? Or how can we, you know, kind of pick your brain and kind of make you like the subject matter expert on learning more about how we can make our organization more like yours?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think the the challenge right now is that most of those organizations are similar to me in that they're small and usually run by one or two people. And so the like financial barrier is typically the issue. But um, you know, I've spent a lot of time working with the U.S. Trail Running Conference and a lot of the grassroots organizations definitely have interest in that. And I think, you know, we've we've talked a lot about what that looks like and trying to educate race directors on the steps they need to take, you know, to to eventually get to that point. So interesting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, it's cool. I'm glad to see it growing more and and it get hopefully get more traction. You so you go, uh Tom, I know, goes to the US trailwriting conference all the time. Talk about that. Like what is that? Because we had uh we sent Kathy this year from Pike's Peak to go out there.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's yeah. So what is that like? It's a is a more of a meeting of race directors, or because I I didn't I never really got the the lowdown because it seems like a maybe a cooler version of TrailCon. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I'm just gonna put the Yeah, I mean I'm going to Trailcon this year and I've never been, so I'm I'm really excited to see what that's about. Um but yeah, I love I love the Trail Conference just because like it's very rare that you get to sit in a room with a hundred race directors and like brainstorm and talk about things that are working and aren't working and how the industry is changing. And you know, it's it's interesting. I went to the running event this year and I went to their like race director, whatever I forget what it was called. And basically, like I left pretty upset. Like I felt like the discussion was that the running community can afford higher race prices. Um, and you know, I was like, how are you pulling that data? Like, are you pulling it from people that are racing? And they're like, Yeah. I'm like, well, what about all the people that can't afford to race? You know, like, and I think listening to that conversation and then having a conversation like that was totally the opposite at the US Trail Conference of like, how are we as race directors making sure that we are making our events accessible? Like, that's number one is like if we want the sport to keep growing, we have to make sure that there are ways that people can race that are facing barriers to entry. Um, and so yeah, I mean, it's not a perfect event, but it certainly is, I think, a really, a really great event for race directors to go to.
SPEAKER_02What did you think of TiRia? I'm actually gonna go for the first time this year. Is it just like every brand kind of going wild? Like what's what's the because I I mean every pretty much every person I'm like pretty close friends with has gone. And like, you know, it's obviously super fun, but is it I don't know. I I I I'm I don't know. I'm a little contrary. I'm a little bit of a contrarian with this stuff because for me, like I said, I think the soul of the sport I worry about. I I I worry that we get lost in this consumerism-based part where we're worried about satisfied charging$150 for a shirt or whatever, or the the latest and greatest watch, where the whole point of this thing is to go have fun playing in the mountains doing the things that get us excited, right? And sometimes I worry we lose that uh with this kind of all these things, right? I don't know. Yeah, what what are your thoughts on that?
Swag Consumerism And Race Culture
SPEAKER_00It's a kind of an open-ended Yeah, I mean, I agree a hundred percent. The the running event was interesting, like from a sustainability perspective, I was like panicking. Um but yeah, it's it's great to make connections. Like I felt like I met a lot of great people um and got to connect with brands that maybe wouldn't have given the running kind the time of day unless I was standing in front of them. Um, so that was certainly helpful. I don't necessarily think like it has a ton of impact for the community. I think it's you know, it's great for retailers um and brands to connect, is really, I think, the main purpose. And maybe for like pro athletes to get in front of brands. But yeah, I wouldn't say it's like a great community event necessarily. Um I do worry that we we'll get lost in the sauce as well as a community. But I will say, like, you know, we don't Really give away any like extras at our events, um, which when I when we started, I was like a little concerned about, um, and a few people were vocal about. And um now I think that we really offer such a unique uh race day experience that I don't think people care as much anymore. Um and I think like the main takeaway is like you have to find ways to engage with the community that isn't just giving them stuff. Like we can find ways to make a meaningful race day experience that isn't like let me give you a free t-shirt and a all this other crap that you're probably never gonna wear. Um, and it's just gonna sit in a landfill because especially as trail runners, like I just feel like you know, I I tend to look at the road running space and the trail running space as two different kind of industries. Um, because I don't know if I necessarily have answers for like the marathoning world. Um, but I think in the trail running space, like most trail runners, I feel like they would get used to not getting stuff. They might be upset the first race, but then like if they're having a good experience, I don't think it's gonna be the end of the world for people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Now I this is this is actually brings up an interesting topic. I was thinking about this the other day. I get I get a random email from so I first of all, I love Broken Arrow. I've competed there in the past. I'll be there this year for race coverage, it's a big thing for the podcast. Super excited to be there. But I often wonder if we've lost the plot in some ways. I got an email the other day from Broken Arrow, and it was like, oh, the latest design of this Boko hat. And I'm like, are people running this thing for the Boko hat or are people running this because they want to get a great experience in the mountains? And Broken Arrow is notorious for giving away. I mean, their swag is great that they give away after you know for the race. But also, like, it's not about the swag. It's about like, are have we lost the plot to where it's um I don't know, uh are you doing this for the finisher medal or are you doing this because you want to go have a great experience in the mountains? And if you're doing it because of the finisher medal, you completely yeah, that's the wrong reason, at least to me, I don't think that's the right reason. It should be about getting the best out of yourself and having an experience. But yeah, I don't know. I I'm I'm not really I've never been a big fan of the swag post-race. It's like, yeah, I don't know why races do that so much and why it's all about can the consumer aspect of it. And it it seems like it's just constantly now trying to sell me something, like buy these ACG shoes or buy this, and it's like uh I'll buy these if I want to. I'm not gonna buy them because I, you know, because you're telling me to, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think it's interesting. I think that race directors have a hard time saying no. Like, you know, we're partnering with Hoka for a lot of races this year, and we were talking about shirts, and I just I don't think it's necessary. Like you, you know, they're like, we can get these shirts printed for for the runners. And I'm like, I I don't think that's gonna change the race experience. Like, I don't think we need to print shirts. I'm good without the shirts, you know. Um, but I think it's hard like when that's right in front of you to actually like say no because you're like, oh, free stuff, like we should take it. Um but yeah, I mean, I don't like that's not someone's not giving you a five-star review because they got a shirt at the pickup.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's the thing too. I think some brands get lost in this uh in the idea with like, oh, we got to have our logo everywhere. But it's like you don't have to give me a shirt, like you can as a creator or as a race director, like you could put out a powerful reel or something that you're gonna put on social media of the race experience with these athletes having an amazing time or whatever. So you can create something now in today's day and age that's gonna get tenfold more views or or people looking at it to get more brand visibility than just giving a hundred people a t-shirt that they're probably either gonna throw away or donate, and some some person in sub-Saharan Africa is gonna be walking around with the you know, the hokus shirt that someone threw away, right? Like, I don't know. It's just kind of yeah, I don't see the point in it anymore. Like we've moved on from that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I I really like to be super intentional about what we're doing, who we're partnering with, um, and like what the racer experience looks like. Um, yeah, you're right. Like part of that is storytelling. Um, you know, what whatever we're able to capture on race day and put out in content about whatever story goes down, I think is a lot more powerful than a logo on a shirt that someone's walking around in. Um, because people are gonna see that that actually will see a story and not just a logo.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. On on the topic of branding, um, like your website, all of your branding is really good. Like it was really cool. You go on your website, you've got Heli Hafman like hammering down a finish line at like the end of the race, and like it's like really, really cool. Did you come? Is this all you or is this a team? Like, how did you come up with all this stuff?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, so my sibling M, they designed all of our like logos. Um, and so each race has a different logo, um, different vibe. And yeah, I designed the website. Um, my I work in marketing, so I'm lucky that that skill set transferred over. Um, but yeah, I I feel like to me, the website is like really important, you know, to again kind of put the storyline out there of like what we do. Um and so thank you. I appreciate that. It's a it's fun. It's fun to like, you know, come up with your own vision for for a brand.
SPEAKER_02Creating stuff is fun. I think that's like the coolest, like whether it's like for me with the podcast or race directing, either way, you're you're a creator of some kind, or like you're building your own thing. That is so much more fun than like doing anything else. I don't know. I I get very lost and excited about kind of into that stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I mean, I spend way too many hours tweaking things on the website or making, you know, just stupid stuff that I think is funny for Instagram or whatever it might be. But um yeah, I mean, we try to make sure that that our vibe is like pretty cohesive and like the messaging is out there, but not overwhelming to people that don't know what it's about, you know.
SPEAKER_02What is your what would you say your goal is for it? Like I it's always interesting to ask an entrepreneur or someone creating something like what they want to do like long-term. Like, do you have long-term visions for it, or is it just like we're just gonna keep evolving off of what we have?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think there's a few goals. Like personally, I would love to be able to do this full-time. Um so I'm not juggling a thousand things. Um as like a you know person who feels like I've impacted the sport in some way, like I would like to be a model for other races and other companies to know that it's possible to prioritize sustainability in sport. And so I don't know what that looks like, honestly. Like, I don't necessarily want to offer consulting services or like anything official. Um, but I do feel like trail running is something that is going to and has already felt the impact of climate change. And so, like, we need to start caring about it. And the main goal of what we do today and in 10 years and in 20 years is like getting more people to care about it. Um, I think making sure that like we're expanding our community so that when important things happen and we need those people to stand up for something or sign something or take part in action that will protect public lands, that we can call on that community to say, hey, we need you guys, like we need you to help us here. Um and, you know, I think that can go a lot farther than just me as one person. So, you know, being able to activate the group is really important as we, you know, embark on the next few years, um, not knowing what that will look like. I mean, in a few weeks we'll have an you know, another roadless rule coming out. And so, yeah, I think there's there's always gonna be things that are attacking our sport. Um, and if we want to see the sport survive past this growth spurt, we're we're going to have to start prioritizing climate advocacy.
SPEAKER_02As someone that's kind of on the, I would say on the forefront of what you're doing in the sport, are you optimistic long term? Like, I especially with the way the world is today and like kind of like our sport. I I honestly struggle sometimes to be optimistic. I I'd love to hear what your take is and and are you are you optimistic long term?
SPEAKER_00I don't know if I'm optimistic. I like have moments of being optimistic. Like we just had a race this past weekend, and it's hard to come off of a race weekend that like honestly, it's so easy to make it carbon neutral. Like it's not you do so much work as a race director, like you're doing a thousand things. Making it carbon neutral is not gonna make your job ten times harder. If you can handle all the other things about race directing, you can handle making it carbon neutral. So to me, like I always leave the events being like, yeah, like of course, more people are going to start doing this because it's just not that hard. And if I'm not making money and I'm able to do it, like these people that are making money have gotta be able to do it. You know what I mean? So I have moments that I'm like, if we can connect the dots for people, hopefully there will be some changes made. Um but yeah, and I think it goes the same with the community. Like some people that started running races with us a few years ago and still are part of the community that maybe weren't super into the whole sustainability thing when they started. Now seeing them like talking about it or like engaging with it in a different way does make me optimistic because I'm like, oh, okay, like this person has changed over the last two years to actually understand what it means to do all these things and and make trail running sustainable. Um, and so that's exciting. Like I really that makes me feel really hopeful about the future. Um, but I do think we're battling a lot of really big things right now. Like we have a lot of things going against us. We're growing at a really rapid pace. We like you said, we're in the heat of consumerism, like, you know, I'm sure at its peak. And we're we're facing an administration that is not doing us any favors in terms of protecting public land access. So all of those things are are not good. And we need people in the trail running community that are ready to advocate for the sport.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's beautifully said.
SPEAKER_00That's good. I blacked out a little bit.
SPEAKER_02No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. For this, for the sport though, I want to ask you for the sport as far as like this UTMB growth and all this other stuff. Are you are like in Olympics and all this stuff for the future, like that lens, are you optimistic for that? Like, do you think we'll figure it out? Like, will grassroots races be able to survive long term? Like, will that I feel like that we we will be able to have both? I mean, that's that's the optimistic part of me. Like, I still think, or at least I I hope, that trailrunners are skeptical enough to not just go full all into the UTMB model and they'll they'll race those races, but also they'll race mom and pop races, and everything can survive in in this world, especially as the sport grows. What's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think there's two takeaways. One is that the UTMB world can't survive without grassroots races. Like, one, just the price point is ridiculous. And so people that can't afford to do those races are doing our races. Um, and you know, maybe eventually they want to do that, but you know, they need to start somewhere that feels feasible. And it's the same thing. Like, I don't know if a UTMB race feels approachable to someone that's never done a trail race. So we're feeding those big races with people that we've given a trail experience to. Um, I don't know if they would thrive without us. So I think that will be okay. I I think another thing is, you know, I've raced big races. Like I ran the Xtera World Championship last year, I I ran the grindstone, like it feels different than running one of Tom's races. It feels different. Like, and to me, I don't like it. Like, I don't know, it's stressful to me. Like getting to a race where there's thousands of people and you're like one small fish in a big pond of like chaos versus like showing up to a start line with like two, three hundred people that like want to hang out and grab a beer at the end of the race. Like I choose that every time personally. Um, I just think like, especially in this time where we're looking for community and connection, I'm not getting community at those races. I'm definitely getting community at you know, these smaller races in the Northeast that I love to run.
SPEAKER_02I'm starting as I get older, I'm starting to wonder if like trail running for me is less and less this like professionalization thing and all these other things. And maybe it's just like a group of people just getting out on the trails and then having a case of beer after. Like it's like maybe it's just not that complicated, you know. I think we we tend to over-complicate stuff. I and I I'm starting to feel the same way. Like, I don't like doing races over 500 people. Like, I that's why I really like the Cirque series races. I think that like gels for me. There's usually 500 like max, maybe sometimes a little more, but like you can kind of find out where where you stand in the pecking order when it comes to races like that, and it's also amazing community, and that just like works really well for me. And I I definitely feel the same way. Anything over that, and you're like, whoa, this is you're not getting community. You're it's it's just a different game. It's it's it's it's it's just different, if you will.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah, I feel the same way.
SPEAKER_00Very much you can have competitiveness in a small field.
SPEAKER_02Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Like, I think we associate like, oh, these big races, that's where it's the most competitive because it's more people. But like one thing we're really trying to do with Climate for Climate is like invite athletes to just come out. Like, you know, if you're an elite athlete and you want to run, we'll let you run for free. Like, just come run. Because we want to see the sport evolve that like it's not always you have to be in a field of thousands of people to be competitive. You can be in a field of 200 people and have some really good competition. Um, and so I think that's something that like the community needs to start kind of wrapping their head around, too, is like small races can be really gnarly sometimes.
SPEAKER_02100%. 100%. And you guys have great talent up there. Like this is where I was going with my last question for you is do you think the Northeast becomes a major player if it isn't already in in the sport within the next like five years?
SPEAKER_00I think so. I think yeah, people are looking for really hard shit. Like, even people that haven't done it, like I think the community is getting a little wild, like in that everyone's looking for this next big thing. And I think right now it's distance that people are like, oh, we gotta do the 200s, we gotta do the three hundreds, like, but for those of us that like to run fast, it's not I don't I think the distance thing will peak and will plateau versus like I had a conversation with Anna Gibson uh you know a few months ago, and I feel like she had just run on the east coast and she was like, it's crazy out here, and it's really, really hard. And I think once once some of the you know pros start experiencing that, um I think we'll really start to see a a you know a boom on the east coast of like, hey, we have smaller mountains, but they're really ridiculous. Um, and so it just because they're not big doesn't mean they're not as challenging. Um and I I think we'll start to see that establish, you know, the northeast as a player in in the US for really competitive races. It's hard because the technicality of the Northeast has to be an A race for you, right? Like you're not flying out for a fun time in the Cat Skills, like you it can't be like, oh, I'm racing in the Cat Skills this week and then I'm going to this race, because it's just gonna take longer to recover when you're on that type of terrain. Um and so I think that's a challenge in terms of like the professional side of the sport. And like we're a lot of professional athletes are like race, race, race, race, race all the time. Um, and so I don't know if the Northeast plays into that model as well as like racing once a month. Um, so yeah, I mean, we'll see. I I hope it, I hope it does. I think the quality of trails out here deserves a spot on the map for sure.
SPEAKER_02I think it's getting more buy-in. I mean, you have a good diversity of of pros, and I think more will move there. See, I what I always found, and I I I say this all the time, I debate this with people often. I think it's an easier place to prepare for European racing compared to the West. And just because the level of technicality, the weather is harsh, harsher, um, the humidity. There's like so many things I think that this go into play to make it more like if you want to compete in Europe, I think that Northeast is actually a great oper a great place like New Hampshire or like upstate New York. There's plenty of spots. Catskills, there's plenty of places where you can prepare and and get uh get perfectly fit to kind of go over and compete. Whereas the West has its own. Well, I mean, I live out here, so obviously I'm a I'm a fan of it, but it's got its own thing. Um, yeah, it just depends on like what you're into. But yeah, it's it's I think the Northeast will it is already a player. I think with Tom's building too, now that they have his partnership with Marathon Sports, I think with the Cirque series, I think there's plenty of like there's so many now like racing series getting involved and seeming to want buy-in to the Northeast that I think it's gonna be like the kind of the place to be within the next five years for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And the nice thing about the Northeast is like it is accessible. Like I'm in Pennsylvania and I can get to the races in New Hampshire in seven hours. So like that's I think huge in terms of like getting a really high quantity of races in a small radius versus out west, you know, if you're going from even Colorado to California or Arizona, like you're gonna be getting on a flight. And so you definitely do get a little bit more bang for your buck um in terms of like drivability in the Northeast, too.
SPEAKER_02I think if you're a short trail athlete, I also think you can you could actually you can make a whole season out of the West for sure, but I think you could have a more fun season in in the East. The only reason I say is because like there's more vertical races, there's more, a lot more short trail races than people think. So yeah, I don't know. I think there's better diversity in the east, in my opinion. But yeah.
SPEAKER_00Hot take Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. There's great races all around. I got I still have to figure out what I'm gonna race this summer on the East. Something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Maybe climate for climate.
Race Plugs And Closing Requests
SPEAKER_02It's possible. What is the date for it? Actually, this is a great plug. Put put the dates out.
SPEAKER_00Uh climate for climate is August 16th. Um so it is a tough time of year. It's definitely hot. Um, but a beautiful time of year. It's super green, all the ferns are out, um, and yeah, the views are spectacular. So yeah, August 16th up at Bel Air in the Catskills. Um we have some new races we're adding this year too. We added a backyard ultra in June. Um, and then we're adding a new race called the Basilisk, which will be at a ski resort in Pennsylvania. Um, about a two and a half mile loop with like a thousand feet. And runners will do it once, twice, or four times. So that'll be a fun little short trail as well.
SPEAKER_02Very cool. Well, I will link the signups in the short in the show notes so people can uh can check it out and sign up and get more info. Um this was a great conversation, Amy. I really appreciate your time. This was this is the most fun I've had in a while in a pod. So appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00We got into a lot of topics.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we did, we did. You let me uh rant on my hot takes. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. We love the hot takes.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Well, listen, thank you so much. Uh, I can't wait for the next one. And uh yeah, wish you the best of luck as you continue to grow this venture. And uh yeah, uh probably not this year, but next year I'll have to make it out for I definitely want to do the climate for climate. So I'll have to put that one on the list.
SPEAKER_00Sweet. Yeah, we would love to have you. Thank you so much for having me on. Um yeah, anyone listening can can tune in, therunningkind.net or at the runningkind underscore on Instagram. So sweet.
SPEAKER_02You guys do you guys have a podcast too? I was doing some research on this and I found a podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do. We have a podcast that kind of lives at the intersection of sustainability and running most of the time. Um, so yeah, we do an episode every two weeks, a little slower cadence than you're really putting them out over here. But yeah, it's fun. It's like, you know, just a little side project.
SPEAKER_02No, I love it. I love it. We'll direct uh the audience to check it out as well. So appreciate it. Well, what'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun conversation. Want to thank Amy so much for coming on the show. What a great combo. And uh definitely looking forward to round two. Guys, the best way you can support the Running Kind, give them a follow on Instagram. You can find them at The Running Kind. And uh you can also hop on over to their website, therunningkind.net. Check out the races. If you are interested in going out to the Northeast for a race, uh, obviously there's a whole slew of amazing races out there, but definitely check out some of the things she puts on. Uh climate for climate. If you happen to be in the like maybe the greater New York area or tri-state area between New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania are looking for a big vert race that's uh gonna smack you down a little bit. The Climate for Climate's a dope one. Come on Armageddon is another really good mountain race. So they put on all kinds of really cool events. Uh, like I said, um, you know, it's uh in a very special area of the Northeast in the Catskill Mountain Park. Uh and if you haven't checked that out, definitely uh it's if you happen to be out there and are looking for something fun to do, definitely check it out. Um, guys, thanks so much for supporting the podcast. If you have been enjoying these episodes, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you can zoom your podcast, hit that subscribe button on YouTube. That would be greatly appreciated. And uh, yeah, we appreciate your support and all kinds of good stuff coming down the pipeline, booking some big uh big shows. And then next week we finally have our sponsor announcement. It's been a minute. Um, yeah, we're gonna put that out into the world, trying to come up with some creative stuff for the announcement for that now. And uh yeah, yeah, it's uh been a long time coming and super excited to to put that out into the world. So thanks for your continued support.
