#173 - Olivia Amber

She steps away from competition for years because of serious health issues then returns with a top-five at Transgrancanaria and an audacious Sierra project that looks more like an alpinist’s dream than a runner’s itinerary. Olivia Amber joins us from Bishop, California to talk about building a comeback that’s less about hype and more about durability, curiosity, and doing hard things for the right reasons.

We dig into how a Midwest childhood and an All-American Nordic skiing background shaped her engine, her grit, and her love for long days. From there, we get practical about life on the Bishop and Mammoth corridor: altitude training, endless vert, technical trails, the climbing community, and why that access changes what’s possible week to week. Olivia also breaks down big wall climbing, the mental side of exposure, and the “systems” skills that matter when mistakes have real consequences.

Then we go deep on Normans 13, the open-ended FKT linking 13 Sierra 14ers with huge climbing, talus, cross-country travel, and a brief 5.9 crux at 14,000 feet. Olivia explains her north-to-south strategy, how she planned logistics and resupplies, what sleep deprivation actually felt like over multiple days, and why the experience hit differently than racing. We also hear what it was like joining Kilian Jornet during his attempt and what she’s learning from The North Face team across running and climbing.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host of James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Olivia Amber to the show, former collegiate All-American Nordic skier, athlete for the North Face, and most recently set the FKT on the Norman's 13 route, which is a high route in the Sierra of uh California. Super excited to get to catch up with Olivia. We talked about a lot of really fun stuff. Uh for starters. She is a former geology major, which we definitely connected on. And uh yeah, we talked about all you know her kind of passion uh for running and climbing and kind of combining the two. Uh we talked about her most recent uh race, which is not too long ago, a top five finish at the Transgrand Canaria Marathon, uh, and a whole bunch more. I hope you guys enjoy her her story. Um interesting journey, and uh yeah, just a big fan. So without further ado, Olivia Amber. Hey now.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

This is the Steep Stuff Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

All right, Olivia Amber, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Good. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Yeah, stoked to chat. This is uh this is a fun one. I uh obviously had been just was following uh doing some, we were doing research for uh the Transgrand Canaria race. It was the marathon that popped up, and I was like, oh, who's this who's this American? And I started doing some research and I had found out about Normans and stuff like that. I'm like, how have I never had you on the podcast before or or gotten a chance to chat? So I'm glad we were able to uh do this. So I'm very excited to learn more kind of about your story and your background.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. And honestly, I it's super fair. I took kind of a multi-year break from competing due to some health stuff. So I was definitely not on the scene for a minute. So working my way back in.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

I'm I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear things are going well and progressing better. I know it seems like you've had like two uh, I guess you call this a I guess a comeback tour, right? Like a little top five at TGC and then second at Zion. That's pretty, it's pretty exciting. Let's get into those. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

It's been a journey to say the least. But yeah, last year I had my first races back, and one of them was actually I flew over to the inaugural UTMB Monte Rosa race, which was super cool. And I did they market it as the 100K, but it's actually 80K. So it's one of those. Um, so I did the 100K in quotes. Um, but it's actually 80k, but it's and it was a super verdy race, and that was kind of like my first like jump back into like really trying to like compete while I was racing. And that kind of style, of course, really suits me. It was just a lot of vert, a lot of ascending. I used my poles, like that is the stuff I love. And since then I've been really trying to figure out how to become more durable on flats and downhills and really actually become like a runner again in a lot of ways, um, which I know is funny to say. But um, yeah, it's it's been really fun to try and test um those those sort of more weakness, weaknesses out again, which I think I probably wouldn't have had the confidence to do um had I not had to take time off to some health stuff. So yeah, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

I like it. I'm glad to hear it full. I'm glad to hear you're you're back and you're back at it. Um, we'll get into some of that stuff. But first, before we get started, I want to learn more about like your backstory. I did some research, so you're from Wisconsin, you're you're living in Bishop now. Um obviously you have this Nordic background, which I want to get into, but talk about the early years. Like, what was it like kind of growing up in the Midwest and doing the Midwest thing?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, so I grew up in a very small town called Lake Nabagaman in Wisconsin. It's like 800 people. Um, and so as you can imagine, in the Northwoods, it's you know fairly flat and a lot of snow. Winter is the sort of primary season up there. And so I just kind of fell into cross-country ski racing, not just because of the climate, but also my family was just really into it recreationally and it was just a really cool part of the culture up there. And so I just started doing it and I really just became so passionate about it. It was like truly my entire life for so long. And so I pursued that through college. I actually signed to continue skiing professionally post-college and then made the decision not to and took a tech job in San Francisco instead. Moved to San Francisco and was there for quite some time until moving to Bishop last year. But yeah, I would say my endurance roots run quite deep in the Nordic world. Um, and you know, if you know anything about that sport, it's very aerobic-based, but obviously there's a large component of strength as well. And I also did a lot of running training for it. So I, while I didn't really compete or focus on running until my adult life, it was still definitely a huge part of my life, uh, pretty much since childhood.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

That's crazy. I feel like you Nordic people, not to like put you in a in a box there, but I feel like the Nordic people are always the fittest. I mean, look, I mean Sam Hendry, Sophia Laukley, yourself. So many people transition over from that discipline. And I feel like there's like obviously there's a combination of different things. Obviously, you have a ginormous aerobic base that transitions really well for trail running, but also like the way you guys train, heart rate base generally, and things like that, um, seems to work really well when it comes to trail and mountain running. Uh, there's so I mean I could I could list out a million things, but would you agree with that as far as that transition is just a very seamless one for a lot of uh Nordic athletes?

Midwest Roots And Nordic Base

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Definitely. I think the one thing that I've really been curious about, I'm excited to play around with more, is we live in the VO2 Max range a lot with cross-country skiing. Our races are a lot shorter. Um, but it's interesting because in the ultra landscape, it's so endurance-based. But like the races I seek out, I'm not living in the VO2 Max window at all. Like I'm trying to keep it pretty chill, which is also what a lot of my Nordic ski training looked like. So it's kind of cool to like take how I used to train and like apply it to like a race setting. And that's been really fun. But I'm curious to see, just because from that like VO2 aerobic base standpoint, Nordic ski athletes tend to have like quite high VO2 maxes, and obviously that doesn't always translate to different performances at by any means, but I do think it's really interesting because I definitely feel that within myself when I can do like a VK. I'm like, oh, I actually do a lot better than I think I'm going to.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

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SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Do you think? I mean, I know you kind of train, you're kind of like uh, as far as distances go. I mean, I've seen obviously you've had success at Broken Arrow. Last year, was it last year you you um went to race, what was it, Mont Blanc Marathon? You've done Broken Arrow a few times. So you do you are very successful at a lot of these short trail races, and you also like the long stuff. Do you kind of live in that world back and forth between the two, or do you do you prefer one versus the other?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

You know, I definitely prefer the mountainous terrain and the technical terrain. And I just really love rock climbing. And so I really like to sort of see how I can push myself in the more technical landscapes like in the mountains. So I prefer races like that, but I'm curious, I don't just because that's my preference, I still don't really know if that's actually what I'm better at in a race setting. Cause I also really try to keep things like pretty dialed. So I don't really want to fall. I like definitely dial it back a lot, especially when it comes to downhill running. I really have struggled with that a lot in the past. And so yeah, I think it's interesting because those types of courses also really lend well to people who are willing to just like full send on the downhills. And I'm just still trying to figure out like how do I keep my ankles like okay for that? My ski boots definitely did not help the ankle strength. I would say that is a weakness, I think, coming from Nordic. Our ski boots did not lend well to strong ankles.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Fair enough. Fair enough. I have I have another Midwest question for you. Uh it's kind of interesting and maybe a generality, but like I think of like uh my buddy Cam Smith, right? He he came from the Midwest. A lot of gritty people, like a lot of gritty people in our sport that are very tough hard workers, um, seem to kind of come out of the according to Walters, another one. She's I think she's from Minnesota.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Jen Lichter, she's also from I didn't know Jen was been a lot of time in Wisconsin, yeah. Yeah. No shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Huh well there you go. I mean, that proves my point even further. Is there something to this not seeing daylight during the winter for like a really long period of time just develop kind of this long like amount of grit for you guys or something?

VO2 Max And Race Preferences

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Maybe there could be something to that. I also think just there's so much forest, like where I grew up, especially in the North Woods, you just kind of find yourself recreating and spending your free time just like outside and in very isolated woods-like settings. And I think it just it in a way there is like a sort of nostalgia anywhere I go to race and ultra. I'm like, yeah, yeah, this is like where like I don't know. There's just a lot that I can pull from, just like playing in the woods as a child. It's it's yeah, I don't know, it's kind of a part of part of that lifestyle too, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

But that's interesting. Well, there's gotta be this, like, there's gotta be some sort of yeah, like woodsy or I guess outdoors can no, seriously, I like outdoors type of connection. Yeah, I I did a I I spent uh a summer and a winter in in Michigan during grad school, and I was like, yo, I didn't during the winter, I didn't see the sun for a very long time. I was like, It's probably June.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

And you're like, it's midwinter.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, it's like how do people do this? I mean, the most beautiful summers with the wildflowers and everything, don't get me wrong, but yeah, yeah, it's uh you gotta have some grit for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah, it it was very cold and snowy, but that was where Nordic skiing was really a great, great sport.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Fair enough. Fair enough. So you're in Bishop now. Talk about that because it's kind of I feel like this mammoth bishop area, although I've never been there. Um, from what it seems like is a very big gateway to a lot of those big mountains in the high sea era. Um talk about what it's like to live and kind of train out of that area.

Why Bishop Is A Training Hub

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, so I was coming over here all the time over the past decade, living in San Francisco. It's, you know, not that close, but close enough. It was definitely a stretch for a quick weekend to make it all the way to the east side in the Man of Bishop area. But I just always tried to make it over here as much as I could. And so um, yeah, there are amazing gateways to the big mountains in the Sierra Range. The 14ers are all kind of uh just out of Bishop, essentially, like just south. Um, and then continuing down the 395 corridor. So the access to really high peaks is like right out my front door. And Mammoth is situated kind of more in the mountains. Bishop's more in the high desert. So in Mammoth, you're gonna be like sleeping at 8,000 feet. You're like in the snow, the tons of snow that mammoth tends to get. And it's just an amazing the trail access, the lakes, like it's just an amazing, it's just, it's really an amazing place. Um, and then down at Bishop, it's a little bit lower. Also unreal trail access, but you actually can get those trails throughout the winter and those shoulder seasons when mammoth still has like 20 feet of snow. Um, so it's kind of cool because either way, there's seasonality because in the desert, it's so hot. I am not gonna be running in Bishop pretty soon. It's just gonna be way too hot to do that. So then I'll sort of migrate up um a bit closer to Mammoth. And so, and the mammoth folks come down here, and so it's it's kind of a fun um sort of mecca to just like piece together altitude training, fast like trail training, but then also there's insane vert. It's just like so endless, like so much vert and um techie trails to you know, gravel roads, like you name it, it's here, and it's also, you know, a really isolated small town place. Like there's no no big city um within a couple hour drive, like Reno and Vegas are kind of the closest, and they're like three to four hours um, roughly. So yeah, it's a cool place.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I was gonna say, like, does how how do you like that? Because I feel like for California, when people think of Cali, they think of uh generally LA, San Francisco, a lot of the more populous areas. Um how do you like like the smaller town kind of atmosphere vibe?

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah, it's definitely in a way, it feels kind of like a homecoming, just because where I grew up was so rural, and then where I went to college was in pretty rural place in Maine as well. And so moving to San Francisco is really the big culture shock for me, and it was amazing. I loved my experience there. I just think it's like one of the best running trail running, especially communities you can find anywhere. And yeah, the trails are just incredible. But I just really, really love the mountains and I really love being able to go skiing and I really love rock climbing, and those aren't things that I could get living in San Francisco. And so I really decided after, you know, quite a few years to make a move over here. And I was coming this way, not because I was like, I seek isolation. Like I love my friends and community, and there are people that do that, and I'm like I was seeking it more just for the activities that I really love to do. And what's cool about over here, sort of different from where I grew up, is it is the access to like a lot of different urban areas is quite close for me growing up. There was just Minneapolis, and that was like four and a half hours away. And it's just different. And so, but people come here for the activities. Um, they're not here just because they've been here for generations. Like there's also that, but there's just so much diversity and different types of people and why they're here and how long they've been here, and there's like, you know, the farming culture, and there's just like so many things that like bring me back to what it was like growing up, but also what it's been like for me living in San Francisco. So I feel like it's a nice little bridge for me. Well, definitely, you know, more rural uh than where I just was in SF. But um, yeah, I kind of feel like I've found like this little happy medium in the Venn diagram of the things that that I personally like.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

I like that. I got a question though, as a professional athlete, this is something I think of all the time. I'm on I live in Colorado and uh like for my friends that live like deep in the mountains, I'm like, it's always a pain in the ass. Like if you got to train and like or go somewhere for a race, especially to fly internationally. Is it is it a pain in the neck for someone like you? Like, for instance, like getting the Transgrand Canary, like that's like it's like five flights, right? Like, what is it like uh trying to get out for some of these races and stuff like that? Does that make it a little trickier?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

You know, yes, definitely. But I do have to say there actually is United actually is starting to operate out of Bishop. There's a little bit of seasonality to it. There's like a little bit of a shoulder season in the spring and fall where they shut it down for like a month at a time. Um, but they do fly direct to San Francisco and then Denver in the winter, which actually is really I use that a ton over the past year that I've lived here, like truly so much. Um, so that actually has helped a lot. It definitely extends the travel by a little bit, especially given they are pretty limited in their flight schedules. But yeah, I mean, if that keeps rolling and they expand more air service, it's only gonna make it easier for me. But at the same time, um, I've having grown up in a place where I was literally four and a half hours from an airport. I'm not, it's not like this totally new thing for me to be like, I need to get somewhere to go race. Like I grew up cross-country ski racing and I need to be able to get places for that. And so um, I'm just kind of like having to go back to those ways. But it's actually really cool because there's kind of this like more shared economy culture here. Instead of having to say it's like, well, just go get your own$200 Uber, you know. Here it's like people are always trying to help. And it's like, oh, I'm trying to get here. Oh, you can borrow my car. Oh, you know, I know so and so who can help you with this. And people really try to help um everyone get places or, you know, just yeah, I don't know. There's a little bit more of that, which I've also really loved.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

So not to not to sell out your area too much, because I'm just very curious. Like, what is it? What is uh like what is the athlete life there? Like, is there a lot because I know Mammoth has a good amount of professional athletes? I know Danny, Tim, uh Rod, there's quite a few that live like up in the Mammoth area. Bishop, yeah, I feel like it's probably pretty. I mean, I guess they kind of everybody flows back and forth, but yes, is there a big like community there?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, I mean, you there's actually, I mean, we've got the ski community with Mammoth Mountain. There's actually like a a lot of professional climbers are here all the time. People base themselves out of Bishop, especially. Bishop is like kind of a climbing Mecca. Um, so there is a really shockingly strong presence of professional elite level athlete in the area. From a running standpoint, it's interesting because Mammoth Track Club is actually like an incredible and really um high performing team that you know is based in Mammoth. And I think actually they just had, I think Carrie Elwood just got 10th at Boston today, and she's Mammoth Track. So yeah, you know, it's yeah, we've got we've got some serious athletes here. But yeah, that's like Dina Castor and Andrew Castor. Like they um they live in Mammoth and they have that going and a lot, like truly a lot of training and for the folks who live up in Mammoth happen down in Bishop in the winter just because of the snow. And so there's so much crossover. And so I see uh, you know, we all train together and see each other a lot. And for me, just because I also really love to climb and um I I was coming from San Francisco and I haven't lived in the snow in like 10 years. I hate to admit this. I was like, it might be kind of nice to live in Bishop for a bit just to like transition back into winter again.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I don't really know if I'm like down for shoveling like 20 feet of snow right now. So also there was that for me. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I couldn't agree more, dude. I in the springs where I'm at, like we had like no snow this year, and I was like, this is amazing for running weather because you uh you get so fit because like you you know, you don't have to worry about the snow. Obviously, it's terrible for wildfires, it's not good. But other than that, it's been amazing for yeah. It's something to be said about not having winter, but just being just far enough away to where you where you can ski, but you don't have to live, you don't have to live in it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Yeah, I was like, this is kind of sweet.

Big Wall Climbing Beginnings

SPEAKER_00 19:46

So I agree. All right, so when I was peeping your Instagram before this uh this conversation, and I saw you like you do like big wall climbing. Like I saw you like there's a photo of you like doing L Cap. That's bananas. Talk about this. Talk about uh that I don't know, how did you get into rock climbing? How did you find that love? Because that's very different than running and and uh obviously skiing.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

So totally. I mean, I do have to say there is something, there are a lot of similarities with the mentality of big wall climbing and ultra running. Um, like a lot. Risks, different mentality though, very similar. Um, but I got into rock climbing actually more with my dad growing up. He and his brothers had like a tree service, and so they like loved ascending things, and he kind of used to go climb just back in the hippie area out of his motorcycle era out of his motorcycle and just like traveled around the west doing that whole scene. And so yeah, he just like would always share photos and talk about all these like amazing places to go climbing. And I just kind of grew up with this like idealized vision of like what being in the mountains was like, and that part of that vision was rock climbing. So I think that kind of informed how I wanted to explore the air those areas once I, you know, had more autonomy as an adult. But yeah, I like grew up, climbed a bit. Um, my parents were both school teachers. So in the summers, we could like road trip around because with the teacher schedule, you they also have the summers off. Um, but with the teacher paycheck, we definitely were not flying as a family anywhere. So road trips it was. And so yeah, we like spent a lot of time just like raging around the mountains. And the closest ones are actually the bear tooths from where I grew up. So we would like drive across North Dakota and then just like go straight to Red Lodge and then access the Beartooths and just like I don't know. I just grew this like affinity for rocks and climbing, and I ended up studying geology and GIS in college. So I was like, I love rocks. Wait, really?

SPEAKER_00 21:51

I have a geology undergrad. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I'm like, cool, I studied my lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Did you have a senior did you have a senior field camp?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

No, that'd be sick though.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

That's how I found out about like Colorado being like the West is like I so we had a six-week field camp where we just like camped throughout all the national parks and like it was like a capstone class for six months.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah, that's how I found out before the San Juans were like cool. I knew about the San Juans because we my my Russian professor took us up there. It was dope.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

That's so sick. Wait, oh my god, I wish we had had that.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

No, I definitely did not. I had to like do a whole capstone with like researching and like a small little area close to Waterville, Maine, which is where I was I went to Colby, which is like in Waterville. Um, so yeah, not that cool. Dang.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

We'll talk, we'll talk to you allogy in a bit, but I'll let you finish what you were talking about for rock climbing. That's that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah, that was just kind of how I fell in love with it. And then when cross-country ski racing took over, it definitely took a little bit of a backseat. I really did not climb at all in college, but I always like really loved it. I some of my favorite like just books and stories, and I don't know, I like loved collecting guidebooks with rock climbing beta. Like it's just funny. Um yeah, I think I one of my favorite like posters was Peter Croft on like Astro Man. Like, I don't know, it's just it's just a thing that I really loved. So um yeah, I guess once I moved to SF and was like close to Yosemite and actually like closer to some of that like serious climbing culture, I started exploring it a little bit more for myself and was like, wow, this sport is so cool. But the systems and the barrier to entry are certainly high. Like, especially as I'm not like a huge like risk seeker. Like I really do like to keep things um tight. But um I yeah, I like really wanted to learn more, but it's also, you know, uh hard to teach yourself. But I tried as best I could and you know, made some friends who were into it and we would, you know, try and go figure things out. And it just kind of kept snowballing from there. I was like, what more can I do? What more can I do? And um I kind of got it in my head that it'd be really interesting to like learn how to aid climb and maybe try a big wall. And I was like, oh, it would probably be good to do something like Washington column first, which is more of like a day mission. And then I was like, that's great. I'm gonna go big wall. I should just like see what I can do going up L Cap. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

All right. So I have a couple questions for this. The first thing is like, because you come in with a high level of fitness, right? You're not an average person. You come in and you're you have this Nordic background. So anything you touch, you're automatically like that's not a barrier to entry for you, is the fitness aspect. It's the muscular endurance which you work on and then the skills. How long did it take you to actually like start to get like relatively, I don't know, good or whatever you would I don't think I'm good. Whatever you engage is like competent, maybe, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, you know, it's for me, it's really more of the systems and the skills. Um, especially because of cross-country ski racing. My interestingly, my strength in that sport was double pulling and classic skiing. So my upper body strength was just really what would set me apart in races, um, which is funny because in running, like, doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Well, it's also an issue if you're like jacked. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So um, but yeah, I for me, like I haven't had really any like strength-based issues when it comes to climbing. It's all just like technique and then the systems. And especially for big walling, like I can do a terrible, like, you know, go up the Jumar's and be like, I have terrible technique, but it doesn't really matter because I can, you know, have the endurance and the strength to just like get myself up the wall. What really slows me down is the systems component, which I'm still trying to perfect and learn. But there's just obviously so many things that matter a lot that you cannot mess up. So I'm not gonna just like, you know, try to blow through those and just be like, oh, I think it's fine. Like, I'll just keep going. Like it, it takes me a while. I like double check everything. And um, you know, people who are really competent, like they can just do something one time with 100% confidence that the system is, you know, good and you know, they're they're off, you know, climbing again. So for me, that's really the main thing. And then when it comes to like not like, you know, the big wall systems thing, when it comes to just like rock climbing, standard rock climbing, I just haven't had as much experience on different kinds of rock. Like I love granite and like I can climb, you know, pretty hard granite, but I really like I've been trying to go to the gorge here outside out of push up a little bit. And it's so funny how much I struggle on that. Like, I'll like try to do like a 10 C in the gorge and be like, this will actually take me a bit to like lead because this climbing is just so different. But someone who's really competent in it, they can just like you know, go climb pretty much anywhere at like similar grades, and it's not that like transition. So those are sort of the places where I have experienced the most like the most sticking points.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

So this is just out of pure curiosity, because I'm I'm an idiot. I have no idea. I think of like Honold doing his thing on like uh on L Cap. How long does it take someone to like someone like of your level? How long does it take you to do like L Cap? Does this like a like a in a day you do this thing?

SPEAKER_01 27:44

It really depends on the route. Okay. Um it really depends on the route. It really depends.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

The nose.

Climbing As Low Impact Training

SPEAKER_01 27:51

The nose is really, yeah, yeah, and free ride is like a variation. Um, so yeah, it it really depends. Like, I actually, if the weather holds up, I'm hoping to go up L Cap again in a couple weeks, but we'll see. Um, and I'm planning on like three days to do the nose, which you know, for some people it's like a week. For like the really competent people, they do the niad, which is nose in a day. Um, which is, you know, used to be a huge deal. Now it's like, I feel like I know so many people who are like, yeah, I can just go do the niad. I'm like, well, I'm definitely not there. So that's yeah, for me, I'm thinking like it'd be like it's for me, a three hard days is you know, fairly, fairly, yeah. Three hard days.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

That's wild. Now, I I from like a cross-training perspective, because obviously you're you're I don't want to say runner first, but like that's kind of your more or less your main discipline. Uh does is this like, do you look at this as like, okay, this is a really fun hobby? Do you obviously we'll talk about uh Normans in a bit, like and how you kind of combine these, but like is this more cross-training for you? How do you how do you view it?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

You know, there's a lot more to be done in this space, I think, around the world, especially, especially combining like different um types of climbing. I think when it comes to running, like you can, it's such an amazing sport because you can like do it in any conditions, pretty much anywhere. Like it's so cool in that way. And so, because of that, I think there's like a lot that can be done that combines different aspects of climbing and running, kind of like you know, the Norman's idea that was not my idea, it's just a route that I did. That was the brainchild of actually a bishop local, Andy Golich. Um, super sick route. But yeah, there's more things like that, or even that, you know, include more of that like mixed and iced terrain around the world that I think would be really cool to explore more of, but um, and I've been thinking about. Um, but also in addition to that, just I've had some major operations. I've had uh really serious abdominal, major abdominal surgery. And so for me, like I've just noticed that when I have high running volume, my body just doesn't really absorb it in the same way. Like I already am very well conditioned from my entire life spent like high-level training. The last thing I really need to do is like push it over the top from an inflammation standpoint. And I have just like, you know, a lot of abdominal issues. And so that like higher impact of running and increasing my volume just really starts to push that over the edge. And it's actually really interesting because I've tried to train to the point where and find cool like training routes for climbing that actually I can climb fast and hard enough and long enough that I get an aerobic effort in when I'm climbing, but also it's like no impact. And I really struggle on the bike. I used to bike a lot and I love biking, but I, with all of my abdominal issues and my pelvic issues, it's something I've really, really struggled with. So I kind of had to like nix that for my cross-training routine. And so for me, climbing has just been the like mental sweet spot and emotional sweet spot because I love it so much. But also I've found a really cool way to incorporate it into my training that works really well for me, especially from a stability standpoint. Like some of the medications I've been on have definitely not been great for ligament laxity. Like I've noticed my doctors and I have like worked on this, I've had a lot more issues with just like ligament uh laxity. And so, because of that, like climbing and working on my stability has been massive. And yeah, again, like climbing is a great way to do that. And so, yeah, I've kind of used it as a way to train, but also like I have a lot of ideas in mind of how to combine things, um, which is exciting. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

I like that. Okay, all right. Uh well, I think it is so interesting, not just the combination, but like the I don't know, uh you see a lot of athletes that are very good at climbing, or at least like very technically um savvy. Like the first athlete that comes to mind is like Jane Moss, who is so nasty when it comes to scrambling and climbing and stuff like that, but also is an amazing runner and kind of combines these things. And whereas like a lot of athletes, you know, traditional athletes in our space generally come from like a track and field background. So when they see rock, they they panic. They're like, oh god, what do I do? Um so you're it makes you kind of dangerous when it comes to racing uh and for just different kinds of objectives because it's I don't know, it makes you a different kind of athlete in a lot of ways, which is exciting.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah, yeah. And there's just I think a lot of really cool things still to do in the sort of more technical, like when running meets climbing and we call it scrambling, like there's a lot of nuance there, and it usually is subjective to like, you know, someone might think it's scrambling, but another person will use a rope. Like, what does scrambling really mean? It is all relative, and so because of that, I think there's also um a lot of room for growth in in like what that can look like in the future, too, um, in the mountains. But obvious, obviously, like we also are very fortunate this day and age to have like amazing technologies that actually allow us to like run in like the backcountry without having to carry, you know, a massive water filter and like massive amounts of you know, high volume food. Like we are lucky to be able to explore the way that we do um with our modern technology, that's for sure.

Normans 13 Route Breakdown

SPEAKER_00 33:48

So cool. Um, I want to shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about Normans. So Norman's 13. Uh in where I come from, we have the Nolan's 14, which is a much lesser, like it's it's hard, but it's like not as hard as what like you're doing, because it seems like there's a lot more climbing with what you're doing. Ours is like big rock piles.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Uh I know I gotta check it out at some point. I've never actually checked it out. I've everyone's always like, you gotta do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

It's you know what? But I was you know what came to mind when you were talking about climbing was like you gotta check out um if you've never been Sagar to Cristo range, highly slept on, um, but it's all this like really sick conglomerate. Um so like there's like these really cool, like almost like basketball-sized holds, like the scrambling is amazing. Yeah, and then we have like the Cresto needle.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

I have heard of it, but I have not looked into it, but I will. I will look into it. Put it on the list.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

It's definitely it's slept on, so it's like not as but if you ever find yourself for a TNF thing and happen to be a few hours away from Sangra de Cristo, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Um make my way over there.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

There you go. All right, let's let's talk uh Norman's. Like what is this route? Uh obviously you did it three days, 17 hours, 55 minutes. Uh help help add some commentary and and color to this.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Yeah, so Norman's 13 is an open-ended FKT, so bait open route. So basically, as long as you are starting um and doing all of the 13 14ers, you can go either direction and you can connect to to them in any way you think is gonna be fastest, which is super cool and creative. And I think, yeah, I think it's just like a really cool way of exploring, but also like trying to, you know, get go for a fast time. Um, very different than racing, obviously. Um, but yeah, so basically the point of the route is to connect the 13 highest peaks in the Sierra Range, which are all 14ers. And in California, there are 15 14ers, but Norman's 13 only focuses on the 13 that are in the Sierra. So the other two that are in the state, but not in the range, are White Mountain, which is just across the Owens Valley. So where Bishop sits, um, just across that little desert in the White Mountain range that kind of faces and mirrors the Sierra. There's actually a 14er over there called White Mountain, and then all the way up north in the southern Cascade um volcanic belt is Shasta, which is also a 14er in California. But those two don't count. Um, this is just connecting the 13 in the Sierra. And yeah, you can go south to north, so or north to south, which is what I did, and I'm still the only one who do it north to south. And I'm like so curious. I want someone else to do it my direction just to see. Um, I'm I I really still don't know if it was slower, but and I'll get to why. But um you start, at least for my direction of travel, um, with Thunderbolt. So it's the Palisade Traverse, which is Thunderbolt, Starlight, um, North Palisade, Polimonium Peak, Mount Sill, Middle Palisade, and then run over on the JMT to Split Mountain, and then and have to go off trail to get to it, and then back down to the JMT again, and then it's a big 50-mile section on the JMT going through Ray Lakes, which is so sick, um, uh over to the Williamson area. So then you do Mount Tyndall and Mount Williamson, and then it's just like all this cross-country travel over to the Whitney zone, or you then do Russell, Mount Whitney, and um Mount Mir, and then um more cross-country travel to Mount Langley and then trail back out. So that's sort of how I did it. Um everyone else has done it the opposite of what I just listed, and um it combines it's about a hundred-ish miles, obviously, depending on how what route and which way you take, and about it's under 50, 40,000 feet of vertical gain. Um, it goes up to 5'9 uh rock climbing grade, but it's only for like a brief moment. And it's more of like a boulder problem. The five nine grade is so weird and arbitrary. It's uh on Thunderbolt, which is the first peak for me. There's like this weird slab uh block that in order to get to the top, you're essentially doing this like really reachy, weird, like arret slabby arrette move to like get to the summit and you're at 14,000 feet. And if you like fall and you're not secure, like you're falling 2,000 feet. So it's very interesting. And um yeah, the whole like technical section is really that Palisade Traverse, which is all fifth class, um, but a lot of like five, six, um, like a lot of like crack climbing five, six, like classic granite Sierra stuff. And then the rest of it is a lot of just like class four, class three, a lot of class two, just like talus for days kind of stuff. Um, and then of course the trail running as well, with especially the 50 miles on the JMT. So you really have it all. And I like to say you can't really be just a runner and do it, and you also can't really be a climber because just be a climber because you have to be okay with um, you know, running that far and also climbing um on that kind of terrain for a sustained amount of time. Cause that whole first day is essentially like fifth class terrain. Well, my first day.

Choosing Direction And Route Strategy

SPEAKER_00 39:18

So why why did you choose the section or the the route, this the I guess the the way you went specifically?

SPEAKER_01 39:26

So the thing I was concerned about with the way I went is it's more vertical gain on the JMT section going my way. But there's going that direction on the Palisade Traverse, I can do it like a couple hours faster. Well, not a couple hours. It's like I've gotten it dialed more than that by now. But especially going at the pace I was going, I think it's probably safe to say that at this point. Um, I just I like that direction of travel on the Palisade Traverse more. There's like this one weird chimney that I brought, just like a 15 meter, five, five millimeter tag line, just like a static line that can just wrap the chimney and climbing up it sucks because it's this like chaucy chimney and there's no pro. And I'm just like, I don't really want to do that. And it would be on my last day. And I was just like, I would be fine, but like, why not enjoy the experience? Like, I'm gonna enjoy this journey so much more if I do it like the way I like to do it. And that's also such a sick part of the route. Like, by the time I get there at the very end of the whole experience, like I'm doing my favorite section when I'm like out of my mind. Like, I don't know. Like to me, it just seemed like so sick to just like do that and be like, oh my gosh, I'm out here and I'm doing this. And also, it's just kind of like this personal thing, the Cottonwood Lakes area, which is where Langley is. I've just always found it to be like this really peaceful energy. Like it's just this really cool zone that I've always just been really, really attracted to. And so honestly, like a part of me was like, I kind of feel like it's gonna be this like magnet pulling me the whole time of just like I can just like enjoy being in a setting that's like not technical, not crazy, not high energy, but just like really peaceful. And for me, that really resonated. And like I was like, I'm gonna be starting out, I'm gonna be like raging, like, let's go, which is like how I feel about the energy on the Palisage reverse. I'm like, okay, let's go, like, let's go do this. And so I just feel like it matched sort of how I envisioned my own energy going um throughout the process. And it definitely was exactly that. Like, I maybe, you know, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but um I I kind of, yeah, it was definitely less of like a performance thing. I was curious, like if maybe it would be a little bit faster just because I feel like some of the technical terrain, like just getting that out of the way when you're fresh, could like really get sloggy when you're tired. But I I don't know. At the end of the day, to be able to like really rage on the like JMT section, you probably would make up the most time. And for it to be more net downhill the other direction, like maybe that is faster. Like, I don't know. Maybe I have to do it again. The other way.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

All right. How dialing this thing in, how long did it take you to start to, I guess, like, I don't know, just kind of put it all together in your head.

Training Through Health Setbacks

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah. So I had this idea. Um, gosh, a couple years ago, like probably five years ago at this point. And I was like, oh my gosh, I really want to do something in the Sierra that combines climbing and running. And then I was like, I'll have to come up with something. I don't know if any of that exists. Like Evo, the Evo Traverse is like definitely more of like a climbing thing. And like, I don't know, like it's just, it's not quite enough running for me to feel like this is like a hybrid of climbing and running. And I was like, but there's gotta be something else. And then I realized that it did exist, and it's a way better idea than I probably would have had. Norman's 13. And so um I was like, immediately like I have to do this. And then I actually had planned to do it in gosh, was that 2023 or 2022? No, that was 2022. I don't even know anymore. Um, and then like shortly after, I started like having some serious health stuff. And so I was like, immediately, no, I cannot like do really anything. Um, and so I had to focus on that. But then in the midst of focusing on all the health stuff, I just like became obsessed with this project idea of just like, as soon as my body is durable enough to just go do it, I'm gonna go do it. And even if I like know I'm not like at peak performance condition or whatever, like doesn't matter to me. It's about the journey at this point, and I know I can go do this thing, it's just a matter. Of like allowing my body to be healed enough and ready to just like actually soak in the experience and enjoy it. And um yeah, so I like truly meditated on this thing for like a couple of years. And then as soon as I started, you know, being able to like run a little bit again, I was like, I need to get over to the Sierra. And so I like came over and I met up with Rod and I was like, let's go like for a run. And I like ran like five miles in Mammoth at like 8,000 feet and was like, oh my God, I used to come over here and do like 80 miles, and like I'm over here for the first time since like all this health stuff, and I'm like gassed after five. Like, okay, this is crazy. And yeah, I I guess like instead of that deterring me, and I I felt like so motivated because I was just like, I'm over here, but like I can't actually like do anything I want to do. So I ended up just like making like a lot of a mental map of like all the places, especially along this route that I hadn't been before that I wanted to go explore. And so it kind of became this like really cool way for me to just like explore new zones in the place that I love so much, but also get fit again. And it just like, yeah, it just kind of became that like loop. And then I got fit enough and was like, I'm gonna try it.

Resupply Planning And Film Support

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Dude, that's crazy. How did you figure out the uh the logistic aspect of it? Like once you started putting things together as far because it's a long way, like resupply and all that stuff. How did you start to put all that together?

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Gosh, I really love logistics. Um I actually used to work at Uber, so there you go. Nice logistics. Love it. Um, yeah, I was really psyched on that. And I had originally planned to do it unsupported. And then um, we actually have a film coming out about it. So with all of the content and like film stuff that was coming up, um, with talks with the North Face, I was like, what the heck? Like, why would I like try to go back out, get some like like a little bit of content here and there after I do this thing when we can just like see what happens with just doing it during it. And so I was like, okay, well, if we're gonna do like a little film, then and there's gonna be people out there, then it's gonna have to be supported. I might as well invite like my family and best friends and see if anyone wants to come help. And so a bunch of people ended up being like, I'll do like tell me what you need. And so um, I ended up having like friends come out and like help me with a resupply or like pace me for sections. And it was just so ended up being exactly like honestly, way better than I had thought because I really love being out there on my own or maybe with one other person. It's just like I just, it's my happy place, and it just like really fills me up in that way. But this was so special. I could like I there were a couple of points where it was like miles away, and the only headlamps I could see were the people I knew were my friends that were coming out to like help me. And I'm just like, what is this? Like, this is such a cool experience in like every level. So I'm really glad I actually ended up doing it that way. Um, but it was actually planning the logistics is one thing. My friends who committed to that is another. You should talk to them. Cause it's a hard, like the hardest thing to get out to. I mean, it's like a day basically just to like get out there. Um, because I actually went out when Killian came out and did it. I was gonna ask you about Killing. And, you know, that that's like one of the easier sections to get to. And Taboos is like a notorious, like one of the harder passes. And, you know, that's you know, over 10 miles just one way. So you're like, oh yeah, just like a quick 10 miles in, but then like, you know, they gotta get back out. But like if they're going with me for a section, that ends up being this like whole thing. And I had to experience that myself when I went to help him because I went into Taboose to do a section with him. And then I ended up doing 50 miles because in order to get out, I ended up having to go around the ridge because there was like all this like ver gloss, and it was like honestly, like blizzard-like conditions, and I didn't want to be on the ridge with him and his other pacer because there with three people with the viz solo and like the hazards. I was like, we're just literally increasing the hazards by like a third. Um, just because it was mostly at that point objective hazard, just like knocking shit on each other. So I ended up having to go like all the way around to get out, and that was the fastest way. And I was like, this is what I put them up to. Oh no. Um, but yeah, that alone was like the biggest thing. The planning of it was fine because it was just like I know the zone so well, I could have a pretty good sense of like where it would make sense to have um resupplies. And I also like had planned on doing it unsupported anyway. So I was like, I'll just carry as much as I know I need, like plus some. And if, you know, for whatever reason, um I have more by the time I meet my next person, like that's fine. I'd rather that. So um, yeah, I don't know. Wow. It was fine. It was fine.

Flow State And Sleep Deprivation

SPEAKER_00 49:06

For for a three-day for almost a four-day effort, how were you able to get into like a flow state at all? Or like, especially with all these people joining you, like what was that like as far as like being able to just dial yourself in or just being in the zone?

SPEAKER_01 49:20

There's only a lot of people at like, you know, every 24 hours, okay, you know, so you're like out there and then you're like, oh, there's a couple people, but then you only see them for like two hours, and then you're like in the like you know, abyss again. So um, so there's that. But um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I yeah, it's I felt like I was really in a flow state like the whole time. I just like love being out in that kind of environment, especially in this particular range. And it was also just this thing that I like dreamed about just doing for so long at this point, which is funny to me. Cause I was like, wow, I really was like about to go do it a couple years ago. And like I feel like a very different person, you know? And so that was pretty cool to just be like, wow, like I'm doing this in a different way than I imagined, but like it's definitely better than like I could have imagined. But yeah, I just felt very connected. And I really felt like the more I got into it, the more connected I got. And by like the last day, I actually felt really sad. Like I was like, I am suffering and like I feel like shit, but at the same time, I really don't want this to end. Which I don't really feel at the end of Reese's. I'm like, thank god.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

It just wants to be over. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Oh, so that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

What did how did you deal with the sleep deprivation? Like, did you like what did that enhance the flow state?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

That was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

I yeah, because I've never done anything like that, where it's like you kind of just have to keep going, like a multi, like if you're on LCAP for three days, like you're sleeping. Cause like you need your brain, at least me, like I need my brain to be like totally good to go. So I'm not like messing up a system. But for this, it's like, you know, I can just keep moving over the terrain and like 30-minute mile is faster than a zero-minute mile. So just keep going. And there were definitely times where I like uh Rod was with me when I was like falling asleep walking, and he's got like some good experience like dealing with this stuff. So he was just like lie down and sleep. And I realized I think next time in like a scenario like this, I would actually sleep like sooner. But instead, I was like, I'm just gonna keep pushing it until I like have to sleep. And I realized for me that just created so much of a deficit that like if I had just kind of like kept up a little bit here and there and not just like way pushed myself over the sleep deficit edge, I think I would have been a bit better off because then I it was like kind of hard to come back from that. But I also knew I was gonna be part of the experience, and uh I also was like choosing to suffer in that way. So I thought it was kind of funny. I was like, this is a choice, like I am choosing this, and that's way better than all this like medical stuff I've been dealing with, which is actively not a choice, and that stuff really sucks. Like, I am choosing to be in this kind of weird sufferer pain state, and like I feel more empowered by that than um like the couple of years that I've had. So I think that also like played into it a lot for me.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Did you did you hallucinate at all?

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Weirdly, no. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

I've heard some good ones. I've heard some people like see some crazy shit out there.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Um I know I was like, where okay, like come on. Weird, but yeah, I've had like other like more fast packing things in in you know other places and end in this year where I've been like you know, hosting like Rox's tents or like Teresa's people, and like you really believe it, and like little like elvish creatures. Yeah, we love the elves. I didn't have any of that. I was like, come on, guys, where are you?

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Dude, I saw a meme recently on Instagram, and like it was like talking about the hallucinations, and it was like these little like garden gnomes like running around. I was like, damn, I almost went up. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's uh what a what a wild experience.

Media Attention And Community Response

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Uh no, no elves for me.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

I want to shift gears a little bit. So you finish this crazy objective, it's all said and done. Were you surprised by like the the reaction? Like there was an outside magazine article written about this, like it was picked up by by media pretty solidly. Like, were you expecting like that level of uh notoriety kind of afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah, I didn't really think too much about it. I was like, you know, this is like a pretty big thing, but yeah, I guess I was just kind of curious. Like, I wonder if people even really get it. Um, so that was pretty cool that, you know, it seems like because there's actually a winter um ascent of it. It's hard to say ascent, because I'm like, it's an ascent, I guess. But yeah, um, like Cody Townsend and Tommy Caldwell and Bjorn, I totally forget his last name. Um, they actually went and did it and they were like super stoked after I did it and Killian did it. And I was like, wow, that's like a really cool. I don't know, like I haven't really done things in the past that like other people have been like, oh, I want to go try that now necessarily. So, which I kind of figured, even if it's not because of me, it's just because I was happened to be the person to do that. But it was cool to like, you know, have an impact in that way, be like, oh, like I did something that other people want to also go try to do that hasn't been done much. That feels special, but it's also like cool because there's gonna be so many more people that go do it and faster and in crazier ways. And it's gonna be so fun to see the progression of this route over time. Cause it's just like I, oh my gosh, I just know how fast it can probably go. And that's really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

So cool.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

I'm excited to see that, and it's cool to be a part of that story and just like know, you know, when that happens, I hate to like be like, oh wow, that's really freaking sick.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Did did it feel like, I mean, especially given the health issues that you've been working through, did it feel like this just like overwhelming moment that you just overcame this giant thing? Like that you're, you know, you're kind of on almost like working through to get to the other side of.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

You know, I feel like there's just been a lot of moments like that over the course of this journey. I think this was definitely a big one where I was like, okay, like this is one of the things that I like have really meditated on and just like not for the outcome. Like I never really thought about like finishing it and like, you know, what that would be like or anything. I just really I was so immersed in like what the journey would be to just like go do something like that again, and especially like this route and like what that means for me as like a person and an athlete and recovering from all this health stuff, and like it's still very much a part of my journey, and like there's going to be more surgeries to come and more, you know, of that stuff. And so to have the time and ability to just like go do it and try it was like all I really cared about. But yeah, I don't know. It's like I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

Pacing Kilian Jornet On Course

SPEAKER_00 56:55

I like that. What was it like uh getting to spend time with Killian? How was that?

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Oh, it was really cool. I was like, man, I am joining him. It was like right as night was falling. I was like, oh my gosh, literally doing this at night. Oh no, like pretty tired still, but here we go. Um, I am nocturnal now. Um, and yeah, I was just like really, really curious to see what state he would be in and just what it would be like. And um, because like I don't really know him personally, and so I was like, this feels really interesting. And like I cannot wait to just like be a part of his bigger journey, but also the fact that he's like out here doing this thing that like I care about so much. And like maybe if he gets like a piece of that, like I'll that's cool too. Um and man, I just was like so impressed with he was just so like lucid and conscious and was like asking me all these questions. And I was just like, you should save your energy, man. Like it's okay. And I kind of went into it being like, I don't, you know, I like to chat, but I also am like, we don't need to talk at all. Like, I don't really know what his energy is gonna be. And so I tried to just like keep it like really chill and quiet. And like if he was clearly like trying to ask questions or talk, then like I would ask him questions and talk. And um, we actually talked a lot, and that was pretty cool. I really did not expect that, and I was like, that's insane. You're insane. Um yeah, I just like was so impressed by his composure and his just ability to like move through that kind of terrain, and we had horrible weather, like it was not as cold and windy as when I did it, but it was snowing hard. So that yeah, I mean, it just slows you down a ton. And so it was just like a crazy, which was fun because I was like, I was just out here, and to be like now in it in a completely um different environment with like you know, snow falling is pretty cool. And yeah, I and to like, you know, share in that kind of just like, well, this is kind of wild experience with him was pretty sweet. Um and I just really appreciated. I could tell he like could see why that area meant so much to me. And I'm like, wow, the fact that he can also like be in these places and he's here because he wants to learn how to appreciate them too, like a local would is like really sick. And I could feel that that was like a part of his mission. It's like he just really wanted to explore these zones and like learn about them. And that like resonated with me with like the questions he was asking and the way he was like, you know, talking about his experience himself. And I yeah, it just left me like very impressed. We were very lucky to have, you know, him and Courtney as like you know, legends of our sport. Like, truly, it's pretty cool that they're such amazing people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

That is really cool. I mean, you know, when it's all said and done, yeah, Killian will will obviously goes down in history and the sport, already is, but like it's cool to have shared a moment with him like that, you know what I'm saying? Like something you'll have forever. Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Yeah, yeah. I really, I really appreciate it. And to be totally honest, any human being who was about to go to New Norman's, I would have been there. It just so happened to be Killian, which was so sick, but like truly, if it was any person, like a total stranger to like the community and me, like I would have been so stoked to like be a part of their journey on it. Um, but it was it was really cool that it was Killian.

The North Face Team And Mentors

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

So rad. So rad. I have so many questions for you. We're all we're already at an hour, so I want to I want to be mindful of your time. Um, I want to ask you about TNF. How do you like what's the how much do you love like being on that team? The reason I ask you is because one of the first things you were talking about was Peter Croft doing Astro Man. You were talking about that. You're like, holy shit, that's a that's a that's a legend right there. And now you're I I don't know if he is or was on the TNF team at one point in time. Oh no shit. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:18

I mean I know he's a legend, but I'm telling you what I'm saying he's probably like no one's looking.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

But what is that like? Uh these meet your heroes moments, and then to be a part of a team like that, you know, like Hanel. There's so many people like on, you know, that that we see in pop culture or you know, that do these incredible feats, and then you're just you're an athlete just like them doing also incredible things.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Yeah, I mean, I feel like that kind of goes full circle back to a little bit what I was saying with um just the act of just getting into climbing as a sport is really difficult. And I do feel like for me, I was really able to like take some massive next steps in just like learning some of the skills and systems once I joined the team. Because then all of a sudden I had this direct plug into literally some of the best athletes in the world in ice climbing and mixed climbing and big wall climbing and bouldering, like you name it, like there's one of the best climbers in the world on the north face for that sport. And so I yeah, I just kind of once I joined, I was like, great, like I really want to learn. And so um I just had amazing conversations and became friends with a lot of really amazing athletes on the team in some disciplines and started learning. And they're so like gracious and amazing teachers, and like literally got to learn from the best. Lucky me. So I really just tried to like I tried to leverage that because I was like, dang, like what a source of knowledge that I can like try to learn. And it's kind of back to what I was saying too, like for me, it's not really a strength thing or a fitness thing, it's definitely a technique and skill-based thing. And like that's exactly like the you know, network I need to like learn that. And so um, yeah, I didn't take that lightly. I was like, man, if I can like ask them, you know, there's a better system for you know different things and I can practice that and like really try and hone it and like learn it, then sick.

What Makes Climbers Elite

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

I have a I have like a this is a weird, almost like a weird question, but the reason I ask this is because I don't know. I just I'm obsessed and interested with people that are really good at things that they do. So like, and I always find running to be such like an outlier because like there's your Michelino Sincerius of the world. He's a good friend of mine. I love Michelino. But like his approach is so different than like, I don't know, Killian or like, I don't know, uh like John Aziz, who's like a robot. Yeah, he's uh he's won Pike's peak multiple times, but he's so dialed and like robotic with what he does. With climbers, is there something that like stands out about these people that like makes them really good at what they are? Is there like a certain trait that you pick up and see that's like wow, like you're really dialed at this, this, this, and this, and that's one of the reasons, like, or you're just obsessed with this. Is there a specific trait that you've seen that like makes these people really good at what they are and what they do?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

They're just willing to go all in.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

And I think that also kind of comes from their culture of dirt bagging, you know, like they fully subscribe to their craft and they live it, breathe it, like they, you know, in a lot of ways sacrifice many other aspects of their lives to be able to do it. And then they are so incredibly like the I feel like climbers are just their operations mindset and like their ability to strategize and just like think quickly is like one of the most translatable skills across anything because you know, these people they can like be like a dirtbag, only focus on one thing, and then have an amazing career until it's something totally different. You know, they're like done with climbing now, like now. I'm gonna be amazing at like this corporate career or something. And you're like, what? Like, that's just not normal. But yeah, I mean, it really is this like I am all in on this sport. And that what's interesting about that sport is because the technique and the skill and the systems is so such a huge part of it. Like, you can spend your whole life focusing on it and that will help you. Whereas running, like you can only run so much before it becomes, you know, interesting for your body. And that's all personal, you know, like different that work different things. Work for different people in that regard. But there is much obviously technique and skill in running as well. But we're not talking about like knots and rope systems and different pieces of gear and when to use them and how to use them. And like it's just totally different level of like just like you know, mastering the craft in that regard. And so yeah, I mean, they're they're all it's just they're 100% in. They just 100% commit. And also you have to be a hundred percent committed when you climb. So there's that too.

Geology And GIS Detour

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

That's true. Yeah, you gotta be all in and like very focused. It's so interesting to me. I don't know. It's always uh when you meet like people that are very uh I don't know at the top of the game at what they do. Like, I don't know, we have like Matt Carpenter. I don't know if you ever heard him, he's like the pike speed record. Guy's a lunatic, complete and total alien. Like, I don't know where he comes from, but like his obsession level and how dialed he is about certain things, I'm just like, whoa, like that's what it takes to truly be the greatest at something or or try to be like one of the greatest at something. So I always find that interesting on like how that, you know, uh kind of crosses over into the climbing world and what how they just go all into, you know, and if you do something long enough, I guess eventually you just be get really, really, really good at it, you know.

unknown 1:07:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

And honestly, living in a place like Bishop now, I'm like the amount of talent, people that like don't know, you know, these incredibly talented people exist in this sport is insane. Like there are so many people who live here who are so low key and they have spent their whole lives just like focusing on climbing in Bishop because they love it and they're just all in and they're insane. Like it's crazy, but like no one knows anything about them, you know? Like they're not professionals, they don't get paid to do it, you know, they don't have Instagram, they just like live and breathe, you know, the the climbing here. And it's just it's really, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

What is your take on that? I find the say I like I see this similarly, like in a lot of mountain towns, like you'll come across these like world-class runners or world-class skiers that'll just like beat your ass that like you've never even heard of. No one's ever heard of them, but they're like, you know, like world class. It's I find that really interesting because they don't chase uh they don't chase a sponsorship or they don't chase this or they don't chase that. Um I always found that interesting. Like it's like uh, you know, it's it's I don't know, just different world, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

It really is. I mean, I've I think we all can learn from everyone, you know. And I think one thing I really I I really commend them for is just they're really 100% living their life for themselves. And there's obviously some great things with that, obviously some not, but I think learning how to be like actually really true to yourself can often like make you a better person around other people too. And I do think with some of the people I've met around here that are like truly living like their truth in every way, no noise, no nonsense, and they're so happy and they're so at peace, and they're so lovely. And I think that's really cool and beautiful. And um, there's always different, you know, there's always a spectrum with all this stuff. But I think at some of the extremes there is that, and I think that's really beautiful, and yeah, I really I I respect them for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Very cool. All right, last topic I want to talk to you about geology and GIS. So you said your was your minor in GIS as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah, well, it's like concentration. So yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

I'll tell you a funny story. I don't think I've ever told this. I've definitely never said this on the podcast, but like this is this is a funny one. I um so my first job was I was an environmental consultant, and I was in this, you know, I got a certificate. Like, I guess it was a concentration in GIS, but the way they would teach the classes for us is like it was very Mickey Mouse, it was a joke. And so I didn't know shit about GIS, but I got a certificate on it. First day on the job as an environmental consultant. The my boss like walks up to me at the time, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, we just did this like whole environmental assessment. He's like, you know, GIS, right? Yeah, yeah, sure. And he like hands me this thing and I had to like do this whole project on like do like drawing all the stuff. I had like completely make it up off the whim, off like and like I'm Googling stuff, trying to figure it out. And it was the most terrif, one of the most terrifying moments of my life. I still think about it and get like sweaty palms. Uh and I had to like have have like a buddy uh who was like have like I've never this is like my first day. I'm like trying to make friends with a guy next to me who's like a GIS expert, like trying to beg him to like help me with this. He's like, Who is this idiot? Like, what is this guy doing? What are you doing here? Yeah, so yeah, it's a it's a funny GIS story, but I was I was like more of a geophysics guy. I was like really interested in the math stuff around it. Yeah, geo. That's cool, yeah. But the GIS stuff, not my jam, but yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

Scarred.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Yeah, scarred, absolutely terrible. Um yeah, you said you went to Colby and studied geology. So I find that that's that's actually there's a lot of runners that have studied geology. Like Jeff Colt has a geology degree, also. Like there's quite a few. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

I know, it's really interesting. Just love to be in the rocks, you know?

Race Plans And Final Wrap

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

Yeah. All right, I think it's a good it's a good spot to end it. Uh, thank you so much for coming on the pod. It was a great conversation. Oh, one last thing before I let you go. What's uh what's the schedule like for the rest of the year? What do you what do you got planned?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

I am planning on racing TDS this year. That's kind of like my main race. Um I we'll see. I kind of want to close it out with maybe like the 100K at UTCT. I think they call it the UT100 now, um, which would be really cool, but we'll see. It'd be a long year to do that. And I don't want to like overcommit my body to things that may not serve it. Um, but in between, I just kind of want to see, just because once the high Sierra opens up, I want to be able to do like some things here. Um, so we'll see like what race I end up doing between now and TDS, but I'll definitely do something probably 100K. Um, and then yeah, I'm like kind of dreaming up some projects and might I might try to do like a early, like late early spring, I guess. Well, it'd be like February next year. Um, like push somewhere. We'll see. So yeah, kind of uh open-ended, but TS is the main race.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

Nice, nice. Great race, by the way. Like super.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

Yeah, I'm excited. I've never been DTMV week.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

Oh, neither have I, but I've heard great things.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

So yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

Well listen, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Can't wait for the next convo and uh wishing you the best of luck uh throughout your summer season.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Thank you so much. It was great to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:42

Yeah, you too. What'd you guys think? Oh man, uh Olivia Amber's a real one. Uh definitely, guys, if you don't already, give her a follow, support her on Instagram. You can find her at OSA Amber, so O S Amber, um, or just type in Olivia Amber. It'll be linked in the show notes. So definitely give her a follow and show some support. Uh I'm sure she'd love to hear from the audience. So um, yeah, guys, if you've been enjoying these episodes, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. That would be awesome. Also trying to grow that YouTube side. So hit that subscribe button as well. Um, we're getting there. Uh, what did you guys think of the announcement for Cetus this week? Uh, pretty stoked on that. Lots of big changes coming for the podcast over the next few months, which I'm really excited for. We just dropped our and maybe I'll do a pod on this. I don't know. I don't know if anybody even really cares, but maybe I'll do um something talking about like where we're gonna be. Um if you guys are interested, I will be at um at Broken Arrow at the Cetus booth. We're gonna be doing uh some really fun little activations there, all kinds of good stuff. And uh um, yeah, if you guys happen to be at Broken Arrow competing or just there to visit, you know, to support loved ones, family, whatever, come stop over to the booth and say, hey, we're gonna be there. And um yeah, maybe we'll be giving out free gear. I don't really know. I probably should have asked that before I said it. We'll figure it out. But yeah, thanks so much for supporting, guys. Um lots of really fun episodes coming down the pipeline. We just did one with Max King, which I'm excited to get out next week, as well as Aaron Tun. Uh got David Norris coming on, and uh yeah, just before you know it, we're gonna be talking about the Gama and um start to get stuff ready for uh Senepe, getting coverage ready for that. And uh the US Mountain Running Championships are right right around the corner. So thanks for your support. Lots of big stuff coming. Take care, guys.