#177 - Kieran Nay

He flew across the world, navigated a high-stakes visa process, got sick right before travel, and still walked away with a breakthrough weekend. We’re back with mountain running standout Kieran Nay, fresh off the WMRA World Cup in China, where he delivers a top 15 in the uphill and a top 10 in the Mountain Classic, including the surreal experience of racing on the Great Wall.

We talk through what WMRA events feel like on the ground: the organization, the media presence, and why Kieran values the series’ anti-doping focus. From there, we zoom out into the bigger trail running conversation: WMRA vs Golden Trail vs skyrunning, the push and pull between private series and federations, and whether the sport should ever try to unify under one umbrella. Along the way, Kieran shares what it’s like standing out in a new culture, troubleshooting payments with WeChat, and seeing how sport can cut through the easy narratives we tell about other countries.

Then we get practical. Kieran breaks down pacing, heart rate, and decision-making for steep VK-style efforts, plus what changed for him on technical downhills in the Mountain Classic. We dig into training in Gunnison, grade specificity, heat prep, and the mental shift that helps him race with curiosity instead of pressure. We also hit altitude tools, respiratory muscle training, and his interest in experimenting with bicarb and other marginal gains as the season ramps toward Broken Arrow, SeirSandal, Grand Traverse, and the Pikes Peak Marathon.

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Follow Kieran on IG - @kieran_nay

Photo Credit - WMRA 

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Transcript

Welcome And Season Context

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Kieran Nay back to the show. It's been a little bit since we've had Kieran on. I think the last time we chatted with him was around the Pikes Peak Marathon, Pike's Peak Ascent time for a pre-race interview. So it's been nice to catch up with him and check out what his plans are for 2026. One of the reasons why I wanted to have him on was Kieran is fresh off some early season racing, where he went over to China to compete over in Changpin at the WRMA World Cup race and uh had himself a good string of races, top 15 in the uphill as well as a top 10 in the Mountain Classic. We talked and debriefed all about those results. We talked a lot about the WRMA, kind of dissected the differences between WRMA skyrunning and the Golden Trail series, and uh because Kieran has actually, you know, had the ability to race all three series and uh kind of compared and contrasted and talked about what he liked about each one and uh just his overall experience culturally and uh at the race as well. We also uh picked up on the rest of Kieran's 2026 season. We talked about his relationship with Pikes Peak, the Grand Traverse, living and training out of Gunnison, um, you know, kind of what he does uh and some of his background in exercise physiology. We did talk a little bit or high altitude exercise physiology, we talked a little bit about that. Um yeah, Kieran's uh an absolute wealth of knowledge. And uh, you know, I didn't tell him this, but I was like, man, you know, you should you have some good coaching skills. So I think he would make an amazing coach in the future. Um, just like I said, incredibly bright young man, and uh has such a future in our sport and uh continues to grow and uh develop and at less than 30 years young. It's uh fun to continue to catch up with him on these podcasts and uh see how he's changing his game and transforming uh as time goes on. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. Giant fan of Kieran's. Without further ado, Kieran Nay. This is the Steep Stuff Podcast. All right, Kieran Nay. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? James, doing well. Thanks for having me back. Dude, I always love catching up with you, man. I feel like we do our annual to semi-annual chats, and um, you know, you just got back from this really interesting trip. So I was like, all right, this is the perfect opportunity to catch up and chat about your pl yeah, chat about plans for the summer and channel chat chat about this amazing experience you just had. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Absolutely, dude. Well, let's let's dive right in. So you uh you were just to competing in China, you're pretty, pretty fresh off this WMRA experience. Um so that's definitely something I want to get into. But I think overall, maybe maybe talk about what you just raised, what you just got back from, and and the experience as a whole. Yeah, so I found out about this opportunity through the trail team um through Andy Wacker. Um he had sort of mentioned that there was this WMRA happening in Jinping, and it seemed kind of far out there and not in the not in the cards from a financial perspective, because it was it was coming up and uh flights to Beijing are relatively expensive. Um but my friend Devin Pancake, who's also involved with the trail team, was super gung-ho about going. And so he did all the research and he reached out to uh Jonathan Wyatt, who's the guy who kind of runs everything, obviously of you know Kiwi mountain running fame. Um and uh yeah, Johnno hooked him up with flights and accommodations and all this stuff, and he told me. And I was like, oh, so there's support for this. Okay, I'll you know, I'll reach out. And I sent Johnno an email and was just kind of like, well, we'll see. And I didn't really think it was gonna happen. Um, and then he was like, Well, let me look at your you know, itra and I'll get back to you. And I was like, Yeah, I think we'll be able to support you and here are your flights and here's all this stuff. And I was like, Okay, great, now I just have to figure out my visa. And so, you know, did that whole process, but wasn't sure that that was gonna work out. Um as an American traveling to China, like you need a visa, and it's a relatively uh complicated process. So it it didn't really feel like something that was like actually happening until like the week before, and um, you know, going into the race like two weeks out, I was in Maryland all week for like a work conference, and then I was super sick the week before I went to China. Like I went to the doctor and begged her for antibiotics, and she was like, I'll give them to you, but you know, maybe wait a few days and I didn't, and it was definitely what I needed. Um, so going into the race, like I just it was very much like this is a great experience. This is you know, at the very least, if everything goes terribly, it's like a free trip to China and my first time in Asia, and that's like a really cool experience to get to have, regardless. Um, so that was kind of like the mindset going in. Um and yeah, it was uh amazing event. Um, you know, just showed up at the airport and there were people with a sign, and they drove us to the hotel, and all the meals were provided, and everything was on a schedule and it was all communicated. And, you know, having done some other stuff with like Skyrunning and some other organizations, um, it was very, very like well managed and impressive. Um, and I I definitely uh really enjoyed that element of it for sure. Dude, what an experience. I have so many questions off of this. I'd say the first one, and this is just out of pure curiosity, uh, traveling to China, obviously, you know, at in today's day and age, like you talked about, with all these you know visas and this complicated process, what was that like? How long, how early out did you have to start? And did you have to figure it out by yourself? Or did you have any help uh trying to figure out the visa process? Yeah, Pancake and I just kind of uh traded calls and figured out like, okay, I've been on you know our China, you know, on Reddit and figure it out like you go so the the way it happens is I mean, it I got on it probably a month and a half before we were gonna go, and that was pretty down to the wire. But um you basically have to do this pre-authorization form that takes a couple hours to fill out, or they you know want to know kind of everything about you, and then once you get authorized for that, you your documents need to be presented in person at the consulate for your region. So for Colorado, um, that is Los Angeles. Um and I couldn't really just pop down to LA. So there are these there's this whole cottage industry of these like third-party um like visa people who who help you out with it, where you just mail them your passport and then they take it to the consulate for you and they mail it back with the visa, which sounds super sketchy, and you know, it's like hopefully you get it back. Yeah, like everybody gets stolen in the next year. So like I'll maybe have different feelings about it. But I mean, lots of people do it, and um, it was you know totally like uh completely fine. It was just I something I'd never really done before. Um, but I got the visa back maybe a week before I left. Um one of the photographers, um, his name's Colton, uh, he also uh he got his visa, like he had to change his flights because he only got his passport and visa back like the day before he left. Um so it could be more down to the wire. I was actually pretty comfortable. I think I had like a week and a half. Um interrupting this episode to talk to you guys about Ceta Socks, the official partner of the Steep Stuff Podcast. How much do you guys love your feet? I mean, I do. I love my feet. I really care about my feet, but I also care about your feet. But not in that way. Get your mind out of the gutter. CETA Socks, keeping your feet stable, protected, and in control since 1975. Bringing you guys an anatomical fit and superior hybrid composition materials. CDUS incorporates odor control, ankle support, and anti-slip grip strips into some of my favorite models. Check out the Run Anatomic Comfort and the Run Anatomic, two of my favorites, online at CDUS.us. CDUS is the official foot care partner of UTMB in Western States. CDUS, your foot company. Yeah, you know, uh just emailing with people and trying to figure it out. And you need like an official letter of invitation with like the number and the contact and the stamp of the person who is officially inviting you into China, and then they're kind of responsible for your behavior while you're in China. Um, so it's it's pretty high control. They definitely uh pick and choose who they who they let in. Um the Europeans can just show up for 30 days and it's a normal tourist visa, but if you're in America, there's a little bit more of a stringent process. So Jonathan was giving us some crap about that. He's like, I need to stop inviting Americans because you guys are high maintenance with this stuff. But seriously, you know did you stick out a little bit like a sore thumb, like the six foot two, six foot three uh you know, blonde dude walking around?

unknown 8:51

A little bit.

WMRA Culture And The Sport’s Future

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Um, because it was an international event, a little less so. But when whenever I was out in Chiangping, um the little kids would be like staring and pointing and talking and there uh to their parents. But it was it was a really cool, um, cool experience, and it was it was funny to stick out and um yeah, people were really kind and very, very curious. Like if anyone had ever been to the US and they identified you as being from the US, they would immediately come up and talk to you and tell you about like, oh, I used to live in San Francisco from this time to this time, and you know, this is what I like and all that. How do you like China and all of this stuff? And um, you know, they were uh it was really cool. And I think like uh, you know, traveling to China, like you know, this day and age, like I think there's a lot of suspicion. But, you know, we through sport, I think get the opportunities to be ambassadors and you know, to like encounter each other in the real world. And I think it's really easy, you know, propaganda goes both ways. I watched a Chinese propaganda like war movie on the flight over the American war of aggression in Korea and all this stuff. So, you know, you see things from that other side, but you know, I think it's really important for us to continue to get out in the world and encounter each other as human beings because it's always more complicated than that. And if I can go to a completely different culture and place that's sort of the the opposite pole in the world and and meet people and have good interactions and laugh with people, and you know, like it changes my mind, it changes their mind, and I think like it's one of the great values of sport, you know, for us to continue to gather in this way and and to see each other as people who are united by a shared love for this really fun, crazy sport that we do. Dude, beautifully said, and and I think that's like the one of obviously competition's amazing and getting to compete at these things are so cool, but like when you get to interact with people from other countries and experience these different cultures and cuisines and how they live life, you know, I mean, you just get out of the bubble of whatever you know, Colorado Springs is or Gunnison is, you know, and you get to see that you know, these this entirely different world. Talk to me a little bit about I at Chiang Ping. Is that where it it took place? Yeah, so it's just like the northern district of Beijing. So Beijing itself is kind of spread out into these little districts and cities. Um yeah, that it's it's like the northern district. So we were in Chengping, um, relatively quiet, kind of right up against the mountains. Looks a lot like Colorado Springs, actually. Interesting. Very similar kind of uh vegetation and and and kind of topography. I mean, you're missing Pike's Peak there, but it's maybe a little steeper, but it it honestly looked very similar when I was there. I was like, oh, this is kind of crazy. Yeah, and your post you had described like uh this exposed granite and gravel reminded me of the Pikes Peak region. So I was gonna ask you about that. That is too funny. I always love when you can connect with a place because it reminds you a little bit of home or you can draw kind of parallels from the trails and mountains that you're used to, you know, running on. Um talk to me a little bit about like so you've obviously you've raced Golden Trail, you've raced some Skyrunner, you've kind of gotten to see the array of the different series uh or big, big series around the world that the top of our sport has to offer. How is WRMA? Is it different in any way? Would you say it's more world-class? Would you say like what is the difference that you see or or kind of what stands out? I think it depends. I mean, uh at the level of like an experience, it is most reminiscent of the like Golden Trail National Series final in 2021 when we all traveled to Portugal and there was like a big kind of international group and everyone staying together and competing. Um it's sort of similar to that, but I think WMRA feels distinct in that there's less um, I mean, there was a ton of media, there was a ton of stuff going, but there's a little less of like the um maybe like the storyline stuff of like, oh, so-and-so are big rivals or like not UFC, like uh it's a little bit more just sort of like, hey, we're all gathered here. It it feels more like uh um more similar to like kind of like a world athletics sort of thing where it's it's really about the event and it's less about us as like maybe personalities or something like that. Um compared to Skyrunner, at least my experience with Skyrunner, just definitely a little bit more organized. Um Skyrunner's great and it's super fun and it's super adventurous, but you have to understand that like you're kind of getting yourself into it and you're gonna be renting your car and figuring out your itinerary, and like you know, you're gonna figure it out on the ground when you get there. Um whereas this was like, oh, bib pickups in the hotel we're staying at, and all the ceremonies and press conferences are in the lobby, and like it's it's super easy to kind of, you know, um just show up and just kind of compete, and that's sort of all you're there to do, um, which I thought was was really cool. Um, and there's definitely like a ton of media and stuff out there, but we weren't like really gone out and doing a bunch of photo shoots or anything like that. Have some press guy following you around. Um the reason I really like the WRM air, one of the reasons is like big commitment to anti-doping. I know they've always been very uh that's kind of like first and foremost for them. Obviously, John O is you know first ballot hall famer in the sport, and he you know does a great job at what he does and his role there. The reason I ask is because like, I don't know, like our sport is so uh broken up and there's so many different personalities and so many different series now. And I actually just had recently had a conversation uh with someone about this about you know governing bodies and all those things. And I'm like, dude, the WRMA just always makes so much sense. Like they put together world-class events, I feel like a little bit lesser in the media side from what they're known for, just because, like you said, they're not it's not all about this fanfare and all these other things. Like they're there to put together world-class events and bring some of the best athletes in the world to kind of compete against one another. But I always thought like, you know, if anyone is gonna be the um, you know, maybe take the take the reins as like our governing body so we could get in the Olympics or something like that long term, they'd be a great option. I think that's a great choice. And I think something like Golden Trail and and maybe some of the like I think maybe like rival series to Golden Trail and UTMB and these kind of private organizations, I think they've done a really great job in kind of raising the tide, and it has required an organization like WMRA to kind of maybe up their game in some elements. Um but I think a uh kind of organizing federation has a lot of advantages over a private corporation in terms of like you know, their where their incentives are and being able to, you know, there's not really brand conflicts with any athletes showing up to a certain series versus another series or who's gonna sponsor this race, and so now it's no longer on the series or whatever. Like I think they have a little bit more freedom there because they're not necessarily in direct competition. I don't view them as in competition with um with like Golden Trail, for instance. And in the case of like Sears and All, like it's a World Cup start and it's also on the Golden Trail. So, you know, I I don't think that like it has to be one or the other. Um and I think you've seen that like with worlds and stuff like that becoming a much bigger event. I think that's kind of where like the future will be in terms of you know thinking about the sport kind of organizing and moving forward.

unknown 16:07

Yeah.

Food Teammates And WeChat Hurdles

Great Wall Vertical And Classic Debrief

Training Consistency And Mental Game

Altitude Prep Biohacks And Margins

Pikes Peak Goals And Life Balance

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Do you are you uh I mean this is a completely different conversation. I don't want to stray too much off of it, but are you optimistic? Like, do you think we'll get our act together at some point in time and and start to fold everything under more or less one thing? Or do you think it'll maintain its anonymity? Yeah, I think maybe maybe at some point, but I also I also think that some of the like some of the things that are really cool about trail and and the fact that it is so diffuse and you can kind of make your own way and do your own thing, like like that freedom, like like the dysfunction is also maybe the price of freedom a little bit there. Like, okay, like the you know, these things aren't necessarily super organized, and it would be great for them to be more organized, but because they're not, you have an ability to kind of go in different directions um and sort of pivot mid-season to different things, and it's not just well, this is the one track straight and narrow. And if you didn't start when you were 12 years old, like you're never gonna make it, you know. Like it's a cool thing in our sport that like there are different avenues for sort of um, you know, trying to create a successful career and find what's meaningful for you. I think we will continue to kind of consolidate and organize, and I think the private stuff will exist alongside kind of the more like federated stuff, um, and and hopefully both can kind of inform each other and grow. Um, but we'll see what happens with it. I do think it is moving in that direction. I know there are a lot of people who a lot of the Italians out there had like my Olympic dream mountain running, like t-shirts and stuff like that. Um interesting. I think there is a definitely a move, especially after like schemo and stuff got in, like a move to kind of go in that direction. Wow. Yeah, I mean, I wonder how far we are away. I mean, we have so much to do. That's we'll get it, we'll get into that later. Let's uh let's continue talk about China. Um, how was it um being over there with country like some of your countrymen? Like Devin came over. Um, what's his name? Tyler Tyler McCanless was also there to compete with you. Um was it was it kind of fun having some some guys that you some faces you recognized and kind of knew being over there? Yeah, it was super cool. And I know I know Devin was really excited to go and and I know Tyler was was looking forward to it as well. And it was fun uh the first night we were there. Um Tyler and I got in kind of late, went for a run, and the restaurant at the hotel was closed, so we just went out and found this little little restaurant. And um, you know, like you pay through for everything through like WeChat, um, which is this integrated app that does like ride hailing and buying flights and paying for healthcare and messaging and social media and all your payment. And it's kind of crazy that it's all in like one app, but we couldn't get ours to work at all. We're like trying to pay for like 30 minutes, calling our banks to be like, yes, this is us, like please override whatever you're doing to like not like denying the card and stuff. But um, yeah, it was it was really cool. It was it was fun to go out there um and everyone kind of had like a a different perspective on it. Um and it's also I think cool to like it's fun to go to those international races and race against people you don't know, but it's also really fun to to go with kind of a benchmark of like the folks that you do know. Um and yeah, getting to share that experience with like your friends um is a really cool thing. So absolutely it was really cool. And like Camilla was out there as well. Um she crushed it. I think she was sixth in both races. Um Courtney Coppinger was out there, she killed it. Um I'm trying to remember, I don't think I'm forgetting anyone else, but no. No, I mean it's a tiny, tiny group of Americans, but like still all everyone, yeah, seemed to be able to compete really well and seemed like everybody had a good time. So it was definitely fun. Do you talk to me about the food? What's the what's the food scene like? It's gotta be amazing. I love Asian food, so I was in heaven, you know, it was like rice for every meal and all kinds of great toppings, and it we weren't in the part of China where the food's really spicy. Um if you head farther south and inland, um, you get to like apparently the like you know, make you cry spice, which I would have loved to experience. Maybe not before the race, but after. Um but it was great, like just a ton of different, like a lot of variety of stuff. And um, yeah, personally, like if I could if I had to pick one kind of cuisine to eat, it would be it would be that. And it's definitely it's different than American Chinese, like it's less fried, it's more kind of like broths and soups and things like that. Um, and it's it's it's better. I kind of prefer it. I went to Panda Express and LAX on the way back and was like, ah, this is a far cry. You know, not the same. That's too funny. All right, let's let's talk about the races. So you raced both the Mountain Classic and the Vertical. I feel like the vertical was what, the day before? Um first American male, top 15 finish. Um, and then obviously you had a top 10 fit result at the Mountain Classic. Interesting, because like knowing you, I would have been like, oh, he's gonna get the top 10 result in the vertical, and he's gonna get the top 15 result in the Mountain Classic. It was opposite though. Talk about talk talk about these races. Uh, talk about how this played out for you. Yeah, that was kind of my bet as well. Um, you know, again, coming in, like I had a really great spring of training. Um, was lucky to be able to put in a lot of time, but the block kind of immediately before the race was definitely less than optimal. Um, and so going in, I was just kind of like, well, it's the you know, I haven't raced since um Argentina back in the fall at um Bar Loche. And so I don't really know where I'm at. This is a big race, but it's also kind of the first one, and so just kind of tempering expectations. And I was curious to see how I would do. Um the first day, it was Saturday, um, went to a section of the Great Wall, um, which is just an incredible structure. If you ever get the chance to go see it, um highly recommend. And you know, if 10 year old me, if I could go back in time and be like, You're gonna go run on the Great Wall, he'd probably lose his mind. Uh It was really cool. So it it started, it was a time trial format, um, which I think was really great because you just sort of had to run your own race. Um, you kind of roughly knew if people behind you were passing you that like they were doing better, but it was set up by rank as well. So the highest ranking folks were in the back and the lowest ranking folks were in the front. There were about 40 of us. I think I was ranked like 26. Uh, that was my math on it. Um, but because you're going every 10 seconds and it's you know, it's big time trial format, you know, just get up there. Took off, ran like a 67 second 400 for the first 400, which was a little quick. Um and uh then you kind of start climbing up the wall and it's just stairs. Like I wish I'd gone down to Manitou and spent a little time down there because it was like the it was like a stone version of the incline. Um really steep, kind of uneven stairs. And there was actually a decent bit of downhill in it as well, where we were running down these stairs. And after the first little section, I kind of figured out that you just sort of had to jump down like five or six stairs at a time, and that was the way to do it, and hope you didn't break your ankle. Um, but I know that definitely caught a couple people off guard. Um, you know, Tyler McCannless is the incredible uphill athlete, and I was able to actually get him in the vertical, which I was not expecting. And a lot of that I think had to do with like the stairs being kind of a technical element, which was interesting. Um, but then we got on this just you know really steep uphill for the second climb. And, you know, just I was like, well, I know I can run at about 180 to 185 beats per minute for about 30 minutes without totally blowing up, and so that's just what I'm gonna do, and was able to like actually catch a few people um and was running with Alex uh I think Baldicini is his name. Um he's an Italian, he was third on third or fourth on the day. Incredible climber. He'd kind of come past me and I knew he'd started farther back, so I knew he was ahead of me, but I was like, I'm just gonna hang on to this guy. And you know, we were just kind of going back and forth. I'd like to hike on him and get a little bit of time, and he'd come back with just these like really quick little strides, and we were kind of going back and forth. Um, but through that ended up catching quite a few people, and so finished 15th, which was better than I was kind of ranked. And I was like, cool, that was great. Top 15 in a pretty competitive World Cup is you know a great high water mark to start the season. Sounds good. Tomorrow will be fun, whatever. Um, so then we get into the the classic the next day, and I have no idea where my legs are at or what's gonna happen. Line up, like, you know, ate good the the day before, lots of rice, lots of carbs, um, and just kind of lined up and was like, this will be fun, you know, a lot of stairs to start, and then like a pretty technical downhill. We previewed a bit of the course on Friday, so I kind of knew what to expect and just went out and found myself kind of like I started like three or four rows back because I was like, I just don't want to go off too hard. And we went out and just found myself running pretty easy at the front, um, with I think like Paul Machoka and like the other uh Michael, the other Kenyan guy, and there was like a group of like five or six of us, um, just kind of up towards the front, and it it felt smooth. Um, so I was like, well, maybe um maybe this is the day. Like, I don't know, like feel good, and and maybe it'll blow up at the top of this climb. I don't know. So get to the top of that climb and still feel pretty good. And like, well, the downhill, like there's a bunch of Europeans behind me. There's no way. Like, like I know these guys are gonna be strong here. Um, but I was able to like actually make up places on that downhill, which was kind of a novel experience for me and and super fun. Um, I was able to kind of catch up to Tyler and pass him on that, and then he and I were kind of yo-yoing back and forth through the whole race with uh Lier Barzon Copadas, I think is his name. Young kid from Catalonia, sounds just like Killian, he's like the same accent. Um like the three of us were kind of back and forth. But yeah, it was like these three climbs, you're running through these little villages, um, and it was a ton of just like yeah, like loose pine duff and gravel and boulders. It was just like running in Palmer Lake and um felt strong on the climbs, but felt really good on the downhills and was able to actually like create some space on Alex and keep up with Lierre on the downhills. Anytime you can run technical downhill with a Catalonian, I think that's like uh pretty good. So I, you know, I don't know what happened. I don't know why that clicked in that race, but it did, and um just yeah, kept waiting for the likes to blow up and they just really didn't. And by the end of the race, I didn't really know what place I was in. I knew that it was pretty good and came across and it was like ninth place and a thousand euros, which is awesome. Um and yeah, like definitely I think one of the better days I've had and for it to happen at a pretty competitive World Cup internationally after a lot of travel and maybe some like subpar weeks kind of leading in. Um, that was super cool. And yeah, just kind of surprised myself with it. So dude, amazing. Congratulations. Like, I would say I I mean I think it's really cool because obviously on a big international stage, like those are two amazing results. I I find it really interesting because like last year I feel like you dabbled a little bit in the longer stuff and you kind of came back to doing more of this VK mountain classic. Um where's your heart? Like, I I mean this is a this is kind of a serious question because I know you kind of you're kind of in. I mean, I know I don't know, are you still doing telemuk in a in this month? Okay, in like 12 days running a 15 day. So I think, yeah, I I I think they both actually kind of inform each other. I think Speed Goat and Grand Traverse are like in my legs forever now. Um and you know, doing like uh Red O Volcano, like just big burly stuff. I think that kind of stuff can develop a lot of a lot of strength. And I think that strength kind of stays with you. Um that might also be a factor of just being a bit older now, but um says the 27-year-old. I mean, yeah, but I've been doing it since I was like a long time. Yeah, I quit cross-country when I was like 20 years old, so it's like seven years of just kind of full-time trail running. So you're not even in your prime. That's a crazy. It's weird. Um, but uh yeah, I think I don't know, I definitely feel the tug, especially after this past race, like feel the tug to kind of the shorter stuff and you know, wanting to like experiment with that more. And it is a really I enjoy the longer races and the tactics and the thinking and the gear management and stuff, but it's also really fun to just go run as hard as you can, and there's no real thought to it. It's just like, well, run as hard as you can. And like it's kind of hard to go out too fast in a 30-minute race. Um, so I I do enjoy that side of it as well. And my schedule this year kind of mixes uh a bit of both of those, and we'll see how well that goes. I don't really know, but I think this next race in Oregon will be a good tell if like you can jump between a 20-minute vertical and uh you know four-hour whatever um 50k. Um we'll see. Going into it, did you uh did you start doing any like specific workouts and stuff like that? Because I know it's a little uh we're in that weird part of the time and also where Gunnison is. Like it's kind of hard unless you're on skis during the winter to get on you know some vertical stuff. So did you travel at all to do other things? Or did yeah, I went down to Slide a bit to go run. Um, but we melted out really early here. So I actually was able to kind of go run my sort of classic climbs around here that I have, you know, 30, 40 results on, and I kind of know like a certain time on that is really good. And um, you know, I was doing a lot of like long kind of threshold stuff or more like tempo stuff, zone three, whatever you want to call that, um, on the skis where I'd do like a four-hour ski and I would do like uh you know like six by twelve minute kind of in that sort of sweet spot. Um but not a ton of speed work. I would do my strides, been good about my strides, been in the weight room. Um that was a big thing this winter. Um but yeah, I went on those like kind of classic climbs, and there's one down by the lake uh called Vulcan. It's like a 1400-foot climb. And I had a time on it from 2021, which in my mind has always been like that was the season that you know that was kind of the you know, I was at this certain level and and never quite got back to that, and was actually able to take like 25, 30 seconds off that climb. So it's like a 14-minute climb. So it's decent. And I had no expectation of that. It was just kind of going out, you know, didn't really feel like doing it, but I was like, I'll just go do this workout. And it's you know, you run kind of this half VK, and then you can go run like a 5K hard on the road. And so I just did that workout and and yeah, got under that climb, which I have failed to do. I've gone and tried to do it kind of every spring, and every spring it's like, oh well, like I'm well off the mark, but whatever, maybe I'm stronger now on the downhill, but I'm just not quite the climber that I was, like, whatever. So it was cool to go back and and kind of crush that. And then um Cole Campbell and I have had a long-running rivalry on W Mountain, which is right outside of Gunnison. Um, he got that from me a couple summers ago, and I just never was able to get it back and um was able to go back and drop like over a minute off it on like a 10-minute segment that's really steep and off trail. And I ran that a lot this summer and so, or this spring. And so I think that was like honestly the most specific thing that I did for this race was just going and running W every day and then doing a couple hard efforts on it. Um, because it's just a lot of like technical off-camber, off-trail, rocky kind of stuff. Um that I think actually paid some paid some dividends. So there were some indicators that like fitness was in a good place. But again, I don't really have anything to point to that was like the magic bullet of as to why that was. It just seems to be clicking. So consistency, you know. I mean, I'm sure there's a you know there's a lot of things that go into it. Not getting injured. I feel like there's, you know, for someone that has been doing it as long as you yeah, dude, just having the consistency and some solid workouts, I feel like you can I feel like you can get a lot done with that, you know? Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be too sexy. Like I think a lot of it's just kind of doing the going out and doing your kind of boring training and you know, staying patient with it, not trying to have a hero workout every day. I think I was good about like doing a lot of capacity building, and then I had like two workouts that were like more utilization focused of like I'm gonna use this capacity and kind of burn it up. But a lot of the other workouts, it was like, okay, there's a lot left on the table here, but I can kind of consistently turn those over. And I think that patience, not really being in a rush, um, was really productive. Does this give you confidence going back to Broken Arrow? Because this will be the first year since what, 2024, you'll have done the VK and the 23K, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm excited to go back and just compete. And um, you know, I've been working kind of on and off with um, I think it's uh Nicodemus uh Della Rosa. He's uh sports psych. Um and we've kind of been, you know, I did like a group session with him and some other guys kind of throughout April, and we talked about a lot of good things, um, kind of you know, the the being in like the psychological space to compete. And I feel like I'm in a in a good headspace for that right now. Um so I'm excited to go back to Broken Arrow and and to compete and yeah, just to have fun with it. Um it's fun to be fit, it's fun to race well. So it'll be cool to go back there. And you know, I think like I know Tyler's going back. I know there's a team uh for kind of the world, like the WMRA like uh World Cup final in Canada. Um be cool to try and go for a team in an off-year. I think that's great prep looking forward to Cape Town in 2027. Um so yeah, I'm excited to go back to Broken Arrow. And it'll be cool to just kind of apply everything and see because I have so many times on that course, and I've I mean this will be my fifth or sixth year there, I think my fifth year in a row. And so it'll be cool to go back and just like see like, okay, here are the benchmarks, here where here's where I've been before, here's where I'm at right now. And um, yeah, curious, see how it goes. Do you put, I mean, on that psychological side, do you put because you've had so many top tens at the the VK and the 23K, like you've had a lot of success. Um do you put pressure on yourself knowing that you've run so well during like you were talking about 2021, right? Like that was a that was a it was a big year for you. Um now 2026, five years later, you're you're a completely different person now in a probably a lot of ways, completely different athlete. Do you put pressure on yourself uh that you have to either beat that time, beat that uh result, because the race has gotten so much more competitive now. Um no, I I used to. Like I can remember a couple years where it was like the like I had a a spot outside the parking lot where I would go to throw up before the the vertical just from nerves. Um like I like a tree that I knew I would go to um for like two years. And I think that it's it's really easy to sort of have your hierarchy of goals be like a goal, win the race, set a course record, make this team whatever, C goal, do the best I can. But I think I've kind of really tried to work on flipping that, where if I know that for myself to perform kind of optimally, I need to be in a headspace where I feel happy, I feel relaxed, and coming at it with a curiosity of like, I know this is gonna hurt, but it's a cool opportunity to see where I'm at. And if I get everything out of myself, if that's first place, that's awesome. If it's 20th place, that's fine. Like I got everything out of myself. As long as I can kind of wring the towel out and know that that was everything I had, then that's great information. And I can kind of go back to the drawing board, maybe figure some different things out or whatever. But I think coming into a race with a goal of like, well, I have to be top 10 because I was top 10 three years ago. And if I'm all of a sudden 12th, it's very easy to start thinking about like, well, my train, like in the race, be like, well, my training wasn't great, or well, my nutrition isn't good, or maybe I'm getting sick, or and you just sort of it's an ego-protecting thing because you have assigned status and identity to being in the top 10. Whereas if I'm not worried about that and I come in, I'm just like, I just want to see how well I can do. When I'm in the race and I'm in 12th place and it kind of hurts, and I kind of want to give up. Well, I know that if I'm genuinely curious about how well I can do, I don't get to throw on the towel. I actually have to get everything out of myself. And that I think has been a much more successful racing strategy for me in the past year, I'd say, um, than any sort of like raw, raw chest beating. I'm gonna do whatever, you know. Um, because I think then you just sort of feel like you have to back it up and and it just it it puts me personally. I know for some people that kind of works, but it personally puts me in a bad headspace. Um and I I definitely prefer to be a little more, I guess, I don't know if like zen is the right word, but just kind of approaching it with like the beginner's mind and curiosity of like, let's dig and see where we get. And um, so that's a long way of sort of saying no, I I try not to put I mean there's pressure, you know there's pressure, but I try to think about it in a context that doesn't feel um crushing. How how long, if you don't mind me asking, just because I feel like a lot of athletes deal with this, man. And like people say they're you know they're trying to work through it. How long did it take you to work through something like this? Because it's it's not an easy mindset switch. That's not a yeah, it's not a night and day flip. Yeah, it took like breaking my foot and not running for a year and then having a year of like just a feast of humble pie for a year at every race I showed up at like, well, I've always been top 10 here and now I'm 50th, and like that is what it is, and and sort of um like zooming out and kind of broadening the sense of identity beyond just like I am Kieran and I'm this runner and I'm a sponsored solemn athlete and I do this, you know. Um and broadening the identity and actually pulling back, I think was really helpful. But it took me, I'd say probably like two or three years to kind of get to that point. And I think it's something I'm always gonna have to be like vigilant about. Like um, like even when a rate, like especially when a race is going well, I can really get caught up in like, oh, I'm in sixth place right now, and I have to hang on to this. And it's like, no, you have to stay present. Don't think about what's happening. Like you are here, you're in this moment, and there is more you can get out of yourself, and you know that. And so don't be thinking about these other things. Don't be like um, you know, putting yourself in this other place where, you know, because then if someone comes past you, all of a sudden it's like, well, okay, now I went, I went out too hard or whatever. It's very easy to start making excuses to kind of protect ego if ego is identifying with something like a position or time. Um, so yeah, I think it's something I'm always gonna have to work on. Um, but I do feel lucky to kind of be in a place where it's not um it it feels good and productive. And like being in China, like you know, lining up on the little platform for the time trial start, like I could like see my like left foot like shaking and I could feel all of the nerves in my body, but in my head it was like it was like there was like a line right here where like the nerves just were all somatic and it was nothing really psychological, like it wasn't in my head in the same way, um, which is really cool. So I would love to kind of be in that state as much as I can racing, and you know, we'll see different environments when you're in the US, people know you more, like there's more kind of status associated with it. I find that can kind of be challenging, but um yeah, definitely doing my best to kind of like not uh not get too wound up in all of it. Stress is a crazy thing, man. I was thinking back, I was talking to my coach about this recently, and I was laughing about last year um I had a race. I'd like been injured most of the year, and I came back and uh worked my way back, I think it was Stark Series Grand Target, and I was so stressed out because I wanted a good performance so bad. Dude, I gave myself night sweats the night before. My cortisol must have been up and down because I was so stressed out. And I had a shit performance because I was so stressed out about it. And it's like if you just don't worry, I mean it's so easy to say don't worry about it, because no one give really cares about what your result is. But if you somehow can detach that from in any way, it's so much more beneficial because yeah, it's like it once it's over, it's over anyway, you know? Yeah, and it's not like um I know people have different strategies for doing this. Some people, it's like they kind of have their alter ego that's like the competitor that is sort of separate from the self in a way that you know that person can go talk a bit game and blow up, but that's not really me. That's this kind of character I embody when I'm doing this thing. Um for me personally, I think I I do better with just like yeah, trying to stay really present and also identifying with like the other things that are meaningful to me outside of running. And um, yeah, it's hard. And it's not just like, oh, stop worrying about it, you know. You can't convince your brain like it's just a run. Like your brain knows it's a race, it knows it's a competition, it knows it's a big day, but it's about framing that big day as like this is your opportunity to prove yourself versus this is a really cool opportunity to get the most out of yourself and see what that is. Because who knows? Who knows where you are on the day? There's only one way to find out, and so trying to stay in that second frame, I think, has been like really, really helpful. And you know, it's easier when things are going well, it's a lot harder when when things are not going well. So that's interesting. I mean, definitely you flipped a switch for sure, and it's very obvious. I mean, like with results from last year that you've had, and then going into this year, like it definitely seems like something has changed, which is really interesting. It's cool, cool to see. Yeah, can't can't pinpoint any one thing, but I think it's it's a lot of things kind of moving in a good alignment with each other. So let's talk about series in all. This will be second time, second or third? Second? Second. Second. What uh what are you taking going into this one as far as things you learned from previous builds and previous training blocks, and then obviously experience racing the race. Uh what are you gonna change? What are you gonna keep? And and you know, what's the excitement level for that race to go back and get to do it again? Yeah, I'm really excited to go back. I I think for my first time, I I think I had a really good showing there. Um like at 255 or something. But the first half, the first 10 miles, I was in like top 30, kind of low 20s at one point. I was a couple minutes outside the top 10 at the top of the big climb, um, which was so crazy and so exciting, and I think I got ahead of myself with it. Um but I think it would it I I remember like throwing up everything at mile 11 and then like having to do sort of a full reset. So um yeah, working with a nutritionist to kind of dial in a fueling plan, I think is huge with that. Um as far as the training goes, I really think there's a lot of value in like doing a lot of the capacity building work that maybe isn't as specific, like doing stuff on the track or doing kind of shorter hill repeats or more like long sort of threshold sessions, and then doing a couple kind of key indicator workouts of like, oh, I'm gonna go down to URA and you know, there's a VK there that I've run a bunch of times, and I'm gonna go run that VK and I'm gonna run it as hard as I can and see where I finish. And and that being a good benchmark, because that really is kind of the race. The race is sort of like Running at your threshold for three hours. Um, I think last time I averaged like 177 beats per minute or something like that. So I think like just doing the kind of work that builds the capacity to be able to sort of stay at that level. Um but yeah, mm-hmm, just kind of keeping the same stuff that I've done. Definitely heat training, sitting in the sauna. It's a hot race. It starts at 11 a.m. I think that gets a lot of people their first time. And I was ahead of the game on that the last time I did it, and I think it made a big difference. Um but I think if I can dial in in the nutrition coming back two years stronger and wiser and having raced quite a bit more, um, I think I can definitely run faster than I did last time and and would love to see kind of like if I have a perfect day there, what does that look like for me? Where is the ceiling? Um curious to see what that is. And it's a beautiful part of the world. It is such an amazing, energetic race. There's so much history, and you know, there are thousands of people along the course who are just losing their minds over it. And to be a part of that in any way is is always just such a privilege, and I'm really excited to go back and be a part of that. And um, I did get invited out to Fleta Trail in Italy the weekend before. Um, that's gonna be the Italian mountain champs in the vertical, and then they host their kind of classic race that runs through the town of I think it's Malona. Um so they're helping me out with some accommodations. I'm gonna do that race the week before instead of like a kind of a tune-up thing. Um, but yeah, Sierra Snow is kind of like the big, big goal for the year. Um just to show up there healthy and in a good mindset and be able to see more of where my limit is now. Um, I think it'd be really cool. Dude, that's so exciting. I was gonna ask you about the specificity stuff because I can remember last time we talked about that. I'm not gonna say the segment because I don't want to blow it up. I don't want anybody bothering you. But there's a specific segment in URE uh that we both know about that is very cool. What I was gonna ask you was about like, do you get too much into the weeds on like, okay, you you've been on that climb now, the initial double VK to the top uh of series and all. Do you like search out specific climbs that are gonna help you produce like the same power, for instance, or like whether it's like a road or just stuff like that? Or I think, at least to my understanding of it, and it's been a while since I was, you know, in grad school studying physiology. So the science may have changed. But to my understanding, the dose response, there's no dose response with VERT the way there is with, let's say, time. Um, but what you do get a response muscularly is grade. So I think looking at the specific grades you're gonna be running on and trying to simulate effort on that grade um is is huge. So I went, yeah, I was down in URA yesterday and ran Twin Peaks and then ran up uh yeah, ran up Old Horse Thief and um kind of two two VKs back to back. And um, you know, it's just sort of like okay, running up and down this kind of train sort of gets your muscles, you know, they're they're working at the angles that they're gonna be working at in that kind of race. And you know, I did the I did the sort of the big climb that I've done last. And um it was uh yeah, it's the stairway to Valhalla segment for anyone who wants to go do it. Let's get more people on it. It's awesome. All right, fair enough. I'm usually a gatekeepy, so you s you said it. Totally dry right now, um, which is kind of insane. But I've I've done it actually twice this year now. But I ran it sort of like, you know, it was like in the third hour of my long run yesterday, and it's just kind of like, okay, I'm just gonna like try to like run this with good form, but it won't be like too hard. And I got up in like 45 minutes or something, about 10 minutes slower than I do it in like an all-out effort. But I think it's just good to like get refamiliarized with that kind of grade and and running, you know. It's like it's hard, it burns. Um, but as much as you can kind of like expose your legs to what that feels like um and do it a lot, kind of leading up to a race, I think um you just get more efficient at at whatever it is you do. So if you're doing a lot of that kind of stuff, you're gonna get more efficient at that. If you're running on the road a bunch, you're gonna get more efficient at that. I think um there's a benefit to everything, obviously, but as you get closer to the race, I think you want to definitely you don't want to be shocking your system running up a double VK for the first time, you know, having not been on those kind of grades all summer. I think that's a good way to lose your race. So agreed. Agreed. How much do you care about altitude? Like, do you because I know you've got like a good mix of some you know, sea level races or much lower races this year, and then obviously the Pike Speed Marathon, which is as high as you can get in the United States. Um do you do a lot of altitude training or do you kind of just you know, wherever you can fit things in, fit it in? I mean, living in Gunnison, it's kind of hard not to. My understanding, again, with my sort of three years removed from physiology, you know, my understanding of altitude is that the big thing is just where you live and less where you're running. But um, if anything, it'd be nicer to be able to train lower and faster from time to time. Um, you know, running down at sea level and being able to click off some paces that you wouldn't be able to do up here is is always a really cool stimulus and working on that kind of maximum oxygen flux. But I don't really worry about altitude. Um like I think leaning into most races I do, it's like you want to sleep well, you want to be eating well, you want to be training well, and so you maybe don't need any additional stress. Heat can be a good one that I think reaps a lot of benefits. But yeah, so before something like Pikes Peak or Red O Volcano last year, I would go up to like 12,000 feet and like sleep in my car and be like trying to spend extended like 24-hour blocks at a really high altitude to sort of get that um get that response from kind of the chronic exposure. Before Red O Volcano, I think I spent like a weekend sleeping up at like 12,000 feet backpacking. Um and I, you know, whether or not that that actually produced any dividends didn't take any samples, so we wouldn't know. Um but yeah, unless I'm like going into like a sort of a high altitude race like Pikes Peak or something like that, um, I don't worry about it too much because I think we get a lot of exposure just living where we live. So interesting. Yeah, I mean that's what I was trying to get out of you is how much like altitude what do you like before Pike's Peak or something like that? I've tried to pick Brian's brain a couple times about it, and I gotta ask him again for this year. Uh and just, you know, because it's always interesting what people, different people do, you know. I think if I were to do anything with altitude, I would do like resistance breath training to sort of increase the uh reduce the fatigability of your diaphragm. Because box breathing kind of thing, or uh you can get these like resistance devices that like I can send you, it's like I think it's called power breathe or whatever. There's actually some good research on that. Um much of what you do to sort of prevent uh hypoxia is you kind of try to build a pressure head in your lungs. That's why you hyperventilate. And so if you are less fatigable in your respiratory muscles, you'll be able to hyperventilate more effectively. And then the theory goes that then you'll sort of resist hypoxia a little bit better. I have been a part of a study that kind of assessed that, and I think I did notice a difference. Um, so I'll crank that thing up like eight weeks before a race, start doing that. It's like two minutes a day. It's kind of almost like weight training for your diaphragm and your like intercostal muscles. Um, and then the other thing would be like I think it's great to get out on the terrain itself and just remember how bad it feels to try and run hard at 14,000 feet. I don't think you're getting any sort of special adaptation from that. The exposure isn't long enough. Like you're up there for what 30 minutes, like you know, that's not really like I think it's a great mental exposure, and I think it's it's hard running and it's it's really tough. Um, but from an adaptations perspective, like yeah, going and sleeping up at 12,000 feet or something like that is gonna give you way more of the kind of what we think of as like the traditional boost, um, a chronic exposure. So I don't worry as much about the intermittent exposure and you know, a little breath training, maybe go spend a weekend sleeping up high and feeling really bad. But um, yeah, nothing nothing more complicated than that. What was the name of this breath thing again? I'm gonna go by you probably just saw 200 of them right there. Yeah. Yeah, not sponsored by Power Brief, by the way. Um, yeah, I can I can send you the link if you want to. Yeah, dude, I'm totally buying one. I always I mean that's always like uh, you know, people probably watch this and you know, people that get like side stitches and all those different things, like or have problems with intercostal muscles uh and like cold air and stuff like that. Like it's probably a great thing to use. So yeah, I mean I I think there's there's no substitute for just going out and hard work, yeah, boring training that you have to do, but there are little things that I think can can help. And you know, if they're easy enough, why not? And I'm you know relatively exposed to the physiology world through signing up for grad uh research stuff here as a subject. So I collect a bunch of weird equipment that I keep at my house, and occasionally I'll experiment with something and just see like, oh, this worked, or this really isn't worth the time, you know. Um so it's fine. Are you are you a bicarb guy? Uh well, uh Morton is actually supporting the trail team this year. So I got my first like big tray of bicarb. I haven't tried it yet. That's the next like you know, quotes marginal gain that I'm gonna sort of experiment with of just like, let's see how this goes. Um I definitely want to use it in like a big kind of utilization workout before uh before I try to do it in a race, because I know that like it can be a little fickle. Um but I think Morton has kind of figured out a great system and if your stomach tolerates it, it totally reduces time to fatigue. Um it increases your buffering capacity and and that's huge. So um definitely excited to use it. I just haven't done it before because it's kind of expensive. So now that I have some, I think I'll definitely play around with it. Dude, I just got the I shouldn't say I just got I've got I have that for a few months now. Have you ever tried the Nomeo? That's the that works. It's the it's like broccoli. Uh the cyclists all use it. It's like the broccoli shots. Um and it it's basically the same thing, or it does the same thing uh like for lactate buffering and like time to fatigue. It's insane. Highly recommend. Like I uh I so I I stack that with um like topical bicarb um that I've been using lately, like the PR lotion. I don't know if the PR lotion like actually works, but like that in tandem, it is actually very noticeable. Yeah, okay. That's good enough. I'll uh check out. Yeah. There's a lot of weird biohacking things you can do. It is, it is. Any anywhere you get a little marginal game. Very consistent evidence-based training that is the primary focus that everyone should be worried about. But that's right, that's right. I think they are definitely, you know, once you're kind of once you've sort of optimized everything else, I think um those sorts of things can be a useful edge. So that's for sure. All right, let's talk Pike's Peak. I knew you're going back this year. Super excited about that. This is gonna be what? Number seven. Um took Jordan seven times to win a title. Think about it that way. Yeah, I'm doing uh coming back and uh doing the marathon, um, which I haven't done since 2021. Um and yeah, I'm excited to it's kind of a rough double. I've got Grand Traverse, and then like I think it's two weeks later, maybe it's three. I hope it's three. Um Pikes Peak Marathon, sort of right after that. But last year, Pikes Peak Sant was like two weeks after Grand Traverse, and and it honestly went great. So I'm not too worried about that. But yeah, uh man, Pikes Peak, always a great, great race to go back to every year. And um, you know, the home mountain kind of where everything started, and um just so much history, so cool. And you know, even if it's not on a series, like I think I'll kind of always go back to that race. And yeah, fun to do the marathon. It'd be nice to dip into the three hours and kind of see where that lands us. I was gonna say personal best, what 40309? So right there. Yeah, um, right, right there. It was yeah, you could definitely go very easily, obviously. I mean, dude, that's a matter of like a different difference in barometric pressure kind of day, like to whether you're going so far. I was like, oh man, I I don't even know if I like I think I took like a gel on that. Like I think I like took like two gels and like a handheld for that. Like there's so much I could do better. Um, so it'll be fun to come back and and sort of uh kind of compare results after all these all these years. And until this previous year, my PR and the ascent was actually in that marathon. So who knows? Maybe we'll get a ascent PR as well. Oh wow. What is your fastest ascent? Yeah, because I wrote down last year you did what 22204 or something like that. Did you faster? No. No shit. I've always I've always felt like I could go faster on it, just never have. So we'll see. Maybe we will this year. Um listen, man, I'm just excited for someone uh like to give John a hard time. Love John, but uh I feel like he's he's had a couple people go at him, but I feel like the marathon has not been the marquee event in a couple years. Um, so it'll be fun to go back and um you know I know that um Jacob Dewey is gonna show up and do it, and um he probably wouldn't appreciate me calling him out like that, but it's trying to support him. Um yeah, he'll be super dangerous in that race. Dude, Dewey's an animal, dude. This is so I did not know this. Did he sign up already? Yeah, I think he's in. So excited to yeah, and he probably wants to keep that on the down low. So we probably put that out into the world. Um, but yeah, he'll be super dangerous. Um, and I think you know you know you'll never know who shows up, but it's such a cool race, and there's so much history. And um, yeah, it would be fun to to finally one of these days get get a title on pikes. That would be a great uh personal kind of achievement. So well, I was thinking about this the other day, actually, when I was looking, preparing for this episode. I mean, Brian ran to 22 in 2020. When was the first time it was a gold trail race? Might have been 2022. So he ran 222 in 2022 and then lowered it and uh obviously went and won it last year. So it's like within grasp. It's it it it can be done, you know, it's right there. It can be done for sure. And this year it was nice to like sort of run and and kind of be like in it, and you know, it wasn't necessarily the biggest focus of my year, and um it was cool for it to to sort of go as well as it did and to kind of eclipse. I don't know, the first time I ever ran it, I think I ran like a 227, and so it'd only take off five minutes in what seven years was kind of like oh that's disappointing. But um yeah, it'd be fun to just keep going back and keep trying to figure it out. It's such an interesting race to try and get right, especially the marathon. The marathon is like very tricky to sort of train for um because there's so many different it tests you in so many different ways. Do you think anyone's ever gonna break that record? Like I honestly don't think so at this point.

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It's I don't know.

Closing Follow And Sponsor Code

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I don't know. I mean, people sport keeps elevating all the time, but I think it that's uh because I mean what did Killian run? 325? Something like that. No, I think it was slow, yeah, it might have been a little bit slower than that. Yeah, and that's like what 10 minutes back? Like if anyone were gonna be kind of if you had to pick an athlete, be like, okay, like really strong at altitude, can run downhill like crazy, you know. You'd you'd pick someone like Killian to to go after it, and for him to be uh, you know, 10 minutes back, it it it's hard to it's hard to think about anyone running like Killian's time, let alone uh Carpenters. So maybe it lasts forever. That'd be kind of cool. It'd be kind of cool if there was a record that just kind of stood and was unbeatable, you know, forever. And and if someone gets it at some point, like that's incredible, you know. Yeah. Yeah, worth every penny of the record. The women's record will go down eventually. I feel like pretty so I I feel like if we just get the right field, I've been kind of like positioning my like recruiting to that. Like I've reached out to a couple athletes and been like, hey, like this is a really good payday. If you if we could just get a group of women, you know, to all to throw down at this, you know, someone can break it. Uh I think that yeah, the field matters for sure. It does. The field pushes the pace on the up, and and it's it's sort of a race where like you can save a little bit on the up, but you don't have to. And so if you have a group, people just like running as hard as they can on the ascent and then just falling down the mountain, like that's probably what it takes for it to go down. Um so it can be strategic in a smaller field where you can kind of like you don't have to run as hard as you possibly can on the ascent. So maybe getting a field that's big enough where people are just throwing all their chips in immediately, like that could be that could be uh what it takes. But yeah. And there's women in the sport now, like I can name off the top of my head that I could totally like I think Jane Moss could totally break it if we just got like the right group of you know women out there. Yeah, Taylor Toddle. Uh like I I've pitched a few, so we'll see. I mean, it would be it would be sick if we could get like a good group out there to top it. It's a pretty fantastic payday. So yeah, right? Like, come on. Yeah. Well, you're not balling out of control with it, but I mean you're doing all right. So yeah. Cool, man. Well, what else are you looking forward to after this? Obviously, Pikes Peak, Grant Traverse series and all. You go to Moab. Um, yeah, what's the what's the arc of this season? Is it just uh keeping growing, enjoying, having fun? Like what's uh what's the I think the goal of this season is to continue to sort of work on like racecraft, like the idea of showing up and really trying to optimize performance at a variety of different races. Um not really with like an expectation of like, oh, this race is gonna go like this or that, but you know, show up to a VK of broken arrow and like really nail that, kind of try to optimize that, doing stuff like the more kind of classic up-down mountain races, really trying to optimize that. Um, you know, and and and looking at something like Sears and all and trying to run a really great race there. I think like that's the focus kind of through August. And then after August, I think it becomes a little bit more of like a you know homage to memory lane of like, okay, I'm gonna go run the GT. Like great home race, supports CB Nordic Center. There's really decent prize money for it being a nonprofit and kind of like a smaller operation. Like that's uh it's a super fun race to get to run, you know, 40 miles through the backyard, which is really cool. Um going back to Pikes Peak, uh just curious to see how I can do there. And and then you know, Moab, we'll see. I've always ended my season at Moab half, like being like, Oh, I don't like I feel super out of it, and I don't think I should race. And then I race and I'm just like this sucks. You know, so I don't know that I necessarily want to end my season on that note, but I think it could be fun to like I know if I'm signed up, I'll probably race. So yeah, I think the focus of the season is just to kind of like work on all those little things and optimize. And you know, I'm just curious about like how far I can push it, and I do feel like I'm maybe getting towards a new level for myself in the sport, and I'm really curious about how that translates to a big field of broken arrow or Sears and all or Pikespeak Marathon or you know, any of these other races. Like I feel like I'm I'm coming at it with like a new perspective and and maybe a new ability, and it would be really cool to get through the season healthy. It's it's a lot of racing, um, but to do it all well, to do it all intentionally, and to you know, kind of see it with new eyes and and maybe uh break some kind of uh limiting beliefs or barriers that have been up for a few years around like, well, I just always run this time at this race, you know. Like, let's see what happens. It's a be dude, I love that. Did you say the Stevie Nordic Center by any chance? Stevie Nordic Center. CB. Oh, I thought you said Stevie, because I was gonna say, oh, dude, I'm having Stevie Kramer on the podcast tomorrow. I mean, she's up there. I I see her around. I'll I'll see her at the I wasn't surprised if something was named after her. That's why I asked. I was like, huh, that's pretty cool. She would probably hate that too. She I like to go at the grocery store, and you know, for people who like don't know, you know, they're just walking by and I'm always just like, oh my gosh, it's Stevie Kramer. I don't know if I've ever actually talked to her, but like I'm a big fan, you know, she's incredible. And I think someone too that like you you want to talk about like someone who really through their career cultivated that balance. And had what I would say like a really healthy psychological approach to racing, where it was like, this is something that's super cool that I get to do, that's really fun, but I'm also a teacher and like I'm gonna be the best teacher I can be, and that's really important to me. And not just going all in on everything running at the exclusion of everything else in my life and the success that she had from that. I think that's super inspiring. Um because I I sort of identify with that as someone who, you know, is not like living in their car and putting everything, every chip on running, you know, working out a certain way. Um I think it's really cool to see people who kick ass at the highest level and also just sort of seemingly effortlessly kind of created that balance for themselves. It's it's really inspiring. No, I love that. And I think the balance you can have, I don't know, dude, like uh the van life and going all in, like and just like going all in. It's really cool, but like, dude, if it doesn't work out, that's where the stress comes in. It's like, oh my god. So like yeah, I I had this thought like flying to Beijing where I was like, the last race I did was in Chile, and if you were to just look at my Instagram, you'd be like, what the hell is this guy doing? Like this guy must just like you know, this guy's living the life. He must not work, he must like all this stuff, and it's like actually, I have like a full-time job, and I've got two cats, and I have a house, and I have friends that I like to hang out with. It's nothing to do with running, and I like to go play music, and I like to do all these other things, and it's actually like I have this very like normal life with this really extraordinary element of it, and that's actually such a cool balance, and I feel so content with that the way it is right now, where it's like you know, if running ever sort of oriented itself more centrally in my life, that would be really, really cool. But if it doesn't, I'm happy doing this, and like the way that it's all kind of worked out um is is great, and I feel really fortunate to sort of also have just kind of like a normal life to kind of fall back into. Um it makes things feel uh it's easier to kind of have that level of detachment from racing because it's not my livelihood, it's you know something I do, it's something I love, it's this extraordinary part of my life that is really compelling that I'm really passionate about. But I also you know have to go to work on Monday and like there's a lot of other things to be really grateful for. So I in some ways like I think that is maybe better for me. I don't know. No, I I think so. I think I think that when we do with anything in life, there's balance. If you have too much of one thing, it's always uh it's always impossible to, you know. Some people can do it. I don't know. I can't. Uh if I could sort of make my life just running and traveling around and doing that for a few years, like I would be so incredibly stoked about that, and I would a hundred percent do it. Um but if life looks like this too, like that's also completely fine. You know, I still get to go get a top ten finish in a World Cup in China and have this incredibly adventurous life that would not exist were it not for running. So, you know, really grateful for it in like whatever form it ends up taking, you know. It's a beautiful answer. I think it's a good place to put it. Put a pin in it. Kieran, I'm such a fan, dude. It's always good catching up with you. I appreciate you, and uh yeah, man. I I can't wait to catch up with you. We'll catch up at Bro I'll see you at Broken Arrow. And uh obviously we'll talk of pikes and all that good stuff. So I appreciate you, man. Thank you for coming on. Appreciate you. We'll uh see you in California. Yeah, dude. It's gonna be fun. Oh man, thanks so much to Kieran for coming on the show. What a fun episode. Always such a fan of Kieran's uh guy's a wealth of knowledge, and yeah, like I said in the intro, like every time I I talk to him, we have him on the show, he just continues to evolve and grow and just you know continue to turn into an uh even more amazing human. So big fan of his. It's gonna be cool. Hopefully, this is the year for him at Pike's Peak. Uh, I love that he keeps trying there on his home mountain and uh just what it means to him. You know, we'd love to have him back at the race every year, so it's always always a good time uh, you know, with Kieran, Kieran up at the front of the race. Uh guys, the best way you can support him, give him a follow on Instagram. You can find him at Kieran underscore Nay. It's gonna be linked in the show notes. Um, not too much other housekeeping stuff. We've got some cool episodes coming out. We've got some Hall of Famers uh on the pod next week, and then we're gonna be dropping a cool Zagama episode uh talking all about Zagama. We're gonna be with a special guest. That'll be a fun one. Uh, we're gonna be also doing a uh yeah, we're teeing things up for Sunnepe, which is coming up in the next three weeks, which I gotta start doing pre-race interviews for. Woo. And uh another big announcement for the US Skyrunner series that we're gonna be dropping soon, too, which is gonna be pretty sick. Uh trying to get that figured out now. So, yeah, guys. Um, one last thing, housekeeping. I know I never said this in the ad, but if you if you if you're supportive of the podcast and you've made it this far, um use code Steep Stuff. That's gonna get you 20% off your cart at CDUS. Um our amazing brand partners gave us a code to pass along to our listeners. Steep stuff, nothing too crazy, one word, get you 20% off. Guys, I do really love their stuff. I mean, that's that's a big uh that's like the reason why I I you know choose brand partners because I want to partner with brands of the stuff that I actually use. And uh man, their run in atomic comfort socks are legit. Like I it's good Achilles support. If you guys have Achilles issues, like good support there. There's a nice little strip in the middle that like keeps the shoe locked down. They're breathable, they're comfort, comfortable, they don't smell like that. I think that's one big thing as well. Um, yeah, that's like the only sock I will run in these days is the run the run in atomic and the run-in atomic comfort are my favorite. The run-in atomics are like the long, kind of the long ones. You've seen uh Jim Walmsley and Hayden Hawks wear them. That's like uh the cool, the cool guys uh are always spotted in them, which is kind of neat. Um, but yeah, I'm a big run in atomic comfort guy. It's a little bit thicker of a sock, um, but man, oh man. Like just good structure, uh, everything good for the foot. And then the outs or the insoles are pretty sick as well. Uh definitely check those out. Um, I'm not gonna ramble on too much longer because you guys don't want to hear more on that. But yeah, check them out. CDS.us, use code Steep Stuff.