The Steep Stuff Podcast
All Things Trail, Mountain & Sky Running
The Steep Stuff Podcast
Noah Williams - Pre UTMB OCC Interview
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Chamonix does something to your brain. You land, look up at the peaks, and suddenly every run feels like it should be longer, harder, and higher. We sit down with Noah Williams to talk through the reality of preparing for OCC when the terrain is unreal, the field is stacked, and the smartest move might be holding back even when your legs feel electric.
We get into the nuts and bolts of mountain running performance: adapting from Leadville altitude to lower-oxygen-cost running, why that “superhuman” feeling can still destroy your quads, and how Noah thinks about controlled downhill stimulus to build durability without blowing up the taper. He also opens up about a rough Sierra-Zinal day, what he learned from it, and the lifestyle shifts that are improving recovery in a measurable way, including better sleep quality and HRV.
From there, we zoom out to race craft and expectations. Noah breaks down how he approaches deep fields like OCC: staying within himself for the first 20 to 25K, taking stock mid-race, then turning it into a real fight over the final kilometers. We also talk course recon choices, realistic goals like a top-10 finish, and why the sport’s growth and sponsorship money can be a good thing if we protect what makes trail running special.
If you’re training for OCC, UTMB week races, or any mountain marathon style ultra, this one is packed with practical strategy, recovery lessons, and honest perspective. Subscribe, share this with a trail friend, and leave a rating and review so we can keep bringing you these conversations. What part of taper week do you struggle with most?
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Back In Chamonix Before OCC
SPEAKER_01No Williams, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? It's going well. Thanks, James. Thanks for having me. Yeah, dude. Excited to catch up. Chat OCC. Last time I saw you was in Olympic Valley, and you had a fantastic weekend there, dude. So it's good to uh catch up and chat. Just chat about what you've been up to and uh just kind of the pre-race vibes ahead of OCC. I know that's been a big goal uh for your 2026 calendar. And yeah, man, how are how are you feeling? How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm feeling good. Yeah, I'm in um Chamonix, and I mean obviously can't complain. I love this place. Um it's great to be back. I was only here for a couple days after Sierra Z and all last year. So it's it's been I'm I'm in this phase of getting really excited uh to kind of get a get a bear get my bearings around here and get my bearings on the on the trails. Um I feel like it's a mix. Dan Kurtz has said this before, and he I think it's very true. Um, it's a mix between the uh mountains of Colorado, but like twice as big, of course, and kind of Vermont, like almost Vermont trails. I wouldn't say it's as technical as Vermont, but yeah, there's definitely a lot of roots and rocks and uh some there's some smooth buttery trail, but then it will change really fast. So yeah, getting the legs adjusted, and I feel lucky to have like time um to to do
Sierra-Zinal Lessons And Lifestyle Reset
SPEAKER_00that. Um yeah, and um, you know, it is I'll just touch on it briefly, but it was a bummer uh coming off Sierra Z and Sierra's and all was a tough year. Uh, just had a rough day with stomach issues from the beginning. And um, yeah, it's kind of that's how racing goes. You you swing, you take your swings, and sometimes you miss. Um, so I missed at Sierra Z and all, but I'm not worried about fitness. I'm pretty I'm actually feeling really good about fitness. Um yeah, I've made some like a couple lifestyle changes, and that's helped my recovery a lot. Um mainly I took July off from drinking, which um, as some of you know, that's a big change for me. Yeah. I I like my beer. Uh and it needed I needed a change. I needed a break. Um and yeah, I'm back. I mean, um, it's not July anymore, so I'm I am drinking, but it's like much it looks a lot different. And um, yeah, I I found that I could do like five or ten percent more volume and feel just about the same. Um and so yeah, I really want to continue that momentum. I mean, there are other reasons too, just you know, I mean, drink getting uh having a having a progressing drinking habit is bad for life in general, so as many people know. So um that's been a good change, and um, I think that's helping. Um yeah, just feeling strong and like stoked to be here. I mean, it's anyone who's been here knows it is it is there's not it really doesn't get much better uh in the trail running world than this area. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's Candyland, dude. Have you uh found yourself um because I know I I I literally ask everybody this because when you're there, your eyes are so big because there's so much to do and there's there's you want to do everything. Uh especially we're not I mean, we're we're getting there, we're getting close to the race, but we're still about a you know a little week, week and a half out. Um as far as taper goes and things like that, have you found yourself wanting to do everything and trying to do, putting in a lot of volume, or are you kind of dialing it back post-series and all and just kind of taking it easy?
SPEAKER_00Uh I think especially with Sears and all being um feeling like a flop. There was part of me after the race, like the day after, that I was like, oh, well, this is great. I can actually like I didn't, it wasn't a full race effort. It was more like I could equate it to like a workout effort. Um, and so maybe I can jump right back into things, but the body wasn't coming around right away. Um, kind of had to let the gut readjust and and settle down. So um, you know, because I essentially did that hard effort. Like I did the climb hard. Like I was only two minutes off my split from last year on the climb. So I I raced the climb and then I kind of faded. So um, but I will, yeah, so I had to let the body readjust and and yeah, I knew I I'm well aware of the sh the the sham effects as uh as I would call it. And loud cars. Um and so yeah, I definitely um am holding back. Um and it's hard. It's I mean, I already have 60 something miles and 21 grand for the week, and it's not even the weekends, and I'm like, I'm trying to hold back, but um, but yeah, I um I I think you just have to yeah, keep things a little shorter, focus a little more on quality. Um, there's also just the effect of coming down from my normal altitude um in Leadville, and that always feels really good too. But yeah, I'm I'm not trying there's really nothing to be gained right now. Um the fitness I had coming going into Sierra's and all was really good, and that's not gonna really change between now and OCC. So that's kind of what I'm trying to tell myself, and um yeah, um it's easier than I expected to kind of like stick to my to my plan. But I feel like that's probably just you
Managing The Chamonix Training Temptation
SPEAKER_00know maybe if I were a couple years younger, I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to do this, but uh I I'm pretty like confident in going by feel at this point with my training. And I feel like what the body's telling me right now is it yeah, it'd be nice to get like a week of good training, but it doesn't need to be like max volume or intensity or vert. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Just get the sensations in the legs. Um question for you as far as like just the transition, because yeah, I live in Colorado as well. I know like those trails are like kind of in Leadville, and there's a lot of you know, dirt service roads and stuff like fire fire roads and stuff like that at higher altitudes. Has it been a little bit is a little bit of a switch when you kind of you know you kind of alluded to this earlier in the conversation with um you know this mix of Vermont and Colorado with some technicality and stuff. Like, does it take a little bit to get used to? Because we all know in you know different locations, trails are built differently. Like in the Northeast, some like stuff goes straight up, whereas in Colorado there's a bit more switchbacks, it's just different, right? Um that that difference is that is that easy, always easy for you to kind of adapt to in a quick manner.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think having like I'm in a pretty unique position, like very few people live uh as high as I do in Leadville, and there's always the benefit, even if I go down to like Salida at 7,000 feet, like I feel really good. So you you generally um any adjustment goes better because you just you're all the systems are like heightened, I think, or just they're just operating really efficiently when you're as soon as you go down. Um and but I do think the what we lack in Leadville is the muscular intensity when because you can really only get that when you have over a certain level of oxygen, which is I would say pretty much, you know, whatever that would be for, I'm sure it's different for everyone, but to me it's like six or seven thousand and below. I think that that's where you can really do, you know, normal intensity. Um, and so that's the main adjustment. Um, you know, it feels very similar coming here to um physiologically, it feels very similar to dropping down to sea level, like when I go visit my family on the East Coast, is just yeah, and and I've I've done it enough times now that like I used to go back to the East Coast and just destroy myself muscle. Like I would be like like out of this world sore after a week of training. And I've done that enough times that I'm just like, okay, I don't, I can't do that to myself anymore. And especially not, you know, for in front of a in front of a big, big race like this. So yeah, so I think that's the big adjustment is just learning how to like you're gonna feel really good, but you gotta stay in the zone one or two for at least a couple of days. And then I think it's also important. It's funny, I was running with Bailey today, and she's looking really strong. It's great to see her back from injury. Um, and she was she was doing a run where she was specifically pushing the downhills, uh, not the ups, just the downs. And I thought I think that's really smart. I think, especially in my position of coming down in oxygen. So I kind of did the same. To be honest, very hard to keep up with her. She's she's very technically sound runner. Um, yeah, so so I kind of followed her and I was like, this is good. Like it's good stimulus to sort of muscular stimulus to essentially induce DOMS purposefully. And and it might hurt the day after or two days, but then it will come like my recovery, it will, I will come around fast. And so I think that kind of goes back to the altitude effect of like I I will be recovering 30% faster than what I'm used to. So I can I can do a little bit more muscular damage as long as it's not too much. Um, and I can come back from that and not be worried. Um, so that's kind of the strategy this week. And yeah, I'm definitely we're getting pretty close to taper time here, though. So there's really only a a couple sessions left before the main taper. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Dude, it's so funny you say that. I uh I was so confused. I went out to Cirque Series Killington and like on the twin like back in June, and I was so sore after that from the descent. I I thought it was the descent. I was like, I guess that because the power level that low, that much lower is so different. And I was just like dumbfounded. I'm like, I'm never sore after workouts. Why am I so sore after this effort? Um, yeah, I I guess I I totally understand the muscular stuff on that side, like that adaptation. Um but also I think grade two, you know, when you're running down grades that you're not used to as well, like for me at least, like uh like some of the ski runs that were like 20, 30 percent, you know. I'm not used to that. Yeah, running on normal trails that'll that'll get you. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um it's funny. Um, yeah, the oxygen thing is wild. Like my friend who is a former procyclist, he this is Dan Crespo, he um who I'm uh I'm out here, you know, uh living with and sharing sharing some housing and then runs with. And he uh brought up when he was pro-cycling, he they did FTP tests, you know, fun functional threshold pace for those who aren't those who aren't total cycling nerds. Um, but basically they will do that with added oxygen. And he said it it me it messes you up muscularly for like like you would never believe. And so it's the same, it's kind of the same deal, uh, same difference that we're talking about. But if it's crazy to think about if you actually added high flow oxygen, you you you're gonna feel superhuman, but it's like you still have a muscular limit. Um, and you will pay for that um in the coming days. So yeah, it's a very interesting uh it's a very interesting like limit to find physiologically. I definitely
Altitude Drop And Muscular Damage Strategy
SPEAKER_00didn't find that until I was trail running. Um yeah, I didn't see that in like traditional track or cross country just because I wasn't changing altitude very much, I think. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01So interesting. Yeah, I mean I could honestly we could do a whole video on this.
SPEAKER_00I love nerding out. It's very, yeah, it's fascinating. Totally.
SPEAKER_01Um, let me shift gears a little bit. Um, we'll go back to like pre-series and all, back to broken arrow and stuff. Dude, how has the build been? Um, with the exception, obviously, series and all, we don't have to talk. We already kind of went through that, but just the build in general out in Leadville, um, you know, sensations in the legs, volume. Like what have you been working on and and where's your confidence kind of going into this?
SPEAKER_00I think every year I'm getting more and more confident in my in my strength after sort of three or four hours of racing. Um it sort of began last year with um Broken Arrow last year, I guess, and then um and then Worlds was a real good confirmation that yeah, I just feel like I'm I'm definitely coming into my own with that type of sort of four to six hour, maybe seven-hour mountain effort. Um, I mean, even eight hours. Lavareto last year was eight hours. I ran the ADK and it was about eight hours. Um and that's just feeling very comfortable to be able to, you know, there's there's there's patience involved with those types of efforts, but also um you can push, you can really push. And you can you can push, you can extend, you can kind of spread out the effort more. Um it gets me really excited for 100K stuff, and I definitely want to be doing that in the future. I mean, I had a CCC entry actually from La Vareto, and I actually opted to switch down um because I'm a sucker for competitive racing. I honestly, and it's I mean, I uh it's a little bit hard to explain to people, uh, especially in the US, that OCC is the most competitive race, but everyone just assumes it's UTMB. Um, and obviously you know, yeah. Typical ultra bias. Um, but like yeah, I mean they love it. They they're like, but it's UTMB and it's the name. It's like, yeah, just because it's the name of the race doesn't mean it's the most competitive event. Um yeah, I mean, I you can just do the math. I mean, it's pretty obviously the most competitive field. So um yeah, um, so I think in terms of like my buildup, yeah, I mean, the main difference is just slightly more volume um and getting much better recovery. I mean, um, HRVs looking better, um, sleep quality. Um, you know, it was funny. I was like when I um completely cut out drinking for a month there, I was like, oh, I'm gonna start going to bed earlier and waking up earlier. Well, it turns out I'm still just a night owl. Um, and I don't go to bed any earlier, but I sleep better and I feel great in the morning. So um that's been a big difference for me. And you know, just to be clear, like, I mean, I was drinking a lot for me, right? I think it's everyone's different. Uh, for some people, that's a handle a day. For me, it was like two to four beers a night, you know, and that was just getting unhealthy. So cutting that to nothing or maybe one beer here or there is like much more aligned with my goals and and what I'm trying to accomplish. Um, yeah. And then I've been there having I had some really good long days out, like not necessarily great quality. Well, no, I think it was like I would have I had a couple long runs where I would combine kind of everything, like nice trails, some ridgeline scrambling, which as you know, like, you know, then you're kind of like back into automatic zone one. I mean, there's nothing you can really do on certain ridgelines in Colorado, um, especially if it's loose rock, you just accept the zone one stimulus, but it's great zone one because you're way up high. I mean, I'm a lot of these ridgelines I was doing were over 13 sustained, and you're up, you're up there for hours. Um, and then coming down or finishing the loop with some runnable terrain and feeling strong. Uh, and I love having like some significant climbing towards the end. Um, you know, actually, if you're thinking about this year's OCC course, that's kind of not what it's gonna be. It's actually gonna be like more of a mountain marathon, with I would say there's kind of like 10 miles of pretty runnable stuff towards the end, uh, pretty much from Argentiere in once you get off Col de Posset. Um, it's it's gradual downhill on average. There's some punchy climbing, but I think it'll be very fast uh towards the end. But yeah, I think just feeling like I can move well no matter what the terrain is, um even after four hours of zone two, kind of, I think, yeah, that's kind of what I've been really focused on. And then I'm still sticking to my normal like zone three or four workouts, which most of the time it's just pushing as hard as I can up a 14er. Uh, I got the Oxford Belford FKT as one of my last like hard pushes in in um in the high country in the swatch. And yeah, that felt really good. I mean, it wasn't my PR up Belford. Uh, that actually happened last year. So, you know, it's hard to say like my my pure climbing is maybe not quite as good as it's ever been, but like I felt really strong after that, and I felt strong up really high. Um, and I was able to, you know, climb well um on the short little climbs between the peaks. Um you've probably done that route.
SPEAKER_01But um, yeah, yeah. It's dude. And that's that, I mean, that initial climb is pretty fucking hard. Like, that's not an easy climb.
SPEAKER_00It's great. It's one of my favorite tests. I think it's 3.7 with like four and a half grand. So it's just a really it's one of the closest things we have to sort of, you know, a steep, steep VK. Um, and I I mean it it pales in comparison to the stuff right behind me. But um, but yeah, it's uh it's it's great. It's great for Colorado. And um, you know, with the Willow fire going on in Leadville, I had to, you know, unfortunately that does eliminate a lot of my some of my favorite training grounds, but um not complaining either. I mean, there's plenty of other options outside of the Mount Massive wilderness. Um and so yeah, just had to kind of change around. Um the Black Cloud climb up the south side of Elbert was also closed for a while. And that's uh that's another like similar to Belford, where just really sustained like three miles, 4,000 feet. Um yep. So I still love that kind of thing. And that's not, you know, I don't I don't plan on switching that around in training, but I think the long days and the feelings I've had towards the end of the long days, I think that's what I'll kind of draw on for confidence here. Um yeah, uh once race week comes around.
SPEAKER_01How much uh have you explored the course? Like do you know almost every inch of the course at this point?
SPEAKER_00Definitely not. I've uh currently I probably have only seen like 30% of the like the middle third. I just saw it today. Um and the end, I mean, the end is right here. So I'm gonna I'll see the end that that runnable section I was talking about. Um, and then honestly, the the logistics of getting over to OCA on the Swiss side are pretty common. It's like a four-hour public transport situation. Yeah, whether you're getting out of there or getting to there to start the run. So I think my hope is that I can see like two-thirds of it, like the the the last two-thirds. Um and you know, like in my head, and it's not ideal, I guess. I kind of was hoping, I was definitely hoping to see the whole thing. Um, but I'd rather see the end than the first, you know, 10 miles. I mean, it's gonna feel crazy anyway because the field is so stacked and it's a big stage. So um I'm kind of okay with not seeing the first 10 miles. I mean, I know I know what it looks like on the map. Um, but I but the idea is I think, yeah, my plan is to see Triant Inn, which is essentially two-thirds of the race. Cool. Um, and I saw the high point, the high part today. It's it's good. There's um yeah, it's it's kind of a good middle ground. I wouldn't call it, I mean, the Euros would never call it technical
Building Strength For Four To Eight Hours
SPEAKER_00because uh I honestly think they don't call anything technical. They just love they love sandbagging everything. Uh I'm only partly kidding, but um but yeah, I can see why they don't call it technical, but like I would say it's a nice middle ground of technical. Like there's yeah, there's times on the downhill you really need to pay attention and put your feet in exactly the right places. And there's other times where it just smooths out and gets super runnable. And that those changes happen pretty fast. So I think it really will suit an all all around good runner. And the last, the last big climb up, well, not even that big. The last significant climb up to Cold Neposet is quite runnable. It's like on a service road. So if you're feeling strong for that climb, which you know I I hope to, obviously, that you can make a make I could see, you know, making up a lot of time on that section.
SPEAKER_01So my question to you too is like, how um how do you plan to race this? Like, are you gonna be a little more conservative, let guys go? I I feel like you have a lot of experience too, after, especially after worlds. Like you had such a great performance there. Obviously, Lava Rado, you ran lights out as well. Your broken arrows have been amazing. Obviously, this is you know one of the deepest fields compared to worlds. How do you race something like this? Do you key off of other people? Do you just try to stay in the front pack? Do you run your own race? Like, how do you mentally like reconcile uh execution at a race like this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think with such a deep field, it's a great question. I mean, it's you know, um the main if I might if I'm gonna overthink anything right now, it's gonna be my race strategy. Um so I will try not to, but I think kind of middle ground, like middle ground in terms of running my own race versus totally keying off other people the whole time. I think what I tend to do, and this is kind of what I did at Worlds, was run within myself on that first climb. Um and and even even the second climb because it's sort of a um, well, anyway, I won't actually have seen that. So that's another reason to just run within myself because it will be new trail for me. But um, but yeah, and not overthink who's around me in the beginning. I mean, I I can't even remember where I was at the top of the first climate worlds, maybe top 40, maybe, maybe I was probably, I think I was top 50. Um, and it just it was okay. It doesn't matter. I mean, it there's everyone's packed in at that point. There's, you know, it might feel like the leaders are gone, but they're probably not um in reality. And if and if they are, maybe they're making a mistake. So yeah, I think I think at some point, and I think my guess is it will be somewhere around Triant. Um, I'm blanking, I think that's about 20K in, um, 20 to 25k. So um around there, and you know, this is really a 60K race. Um, around Triant, I think that's when it'll be like, okay, take stock. Um, hopefully, yeah, I feel ready to move. And I think um at worlds, it, you know, yeah, I I mean, my strategy in with really deep fields like this in general is is definitely like move up through the middle and then um, you know, buy the last 10 or 15k, be where I want to be, and sort of just, yeah, then I'm just racing at that point. Um yeah, so I I think in the beginning it will definitely be uh important to stay within myself and not get caught up in, you know, it will feel like there's a lot of people ahead of me. It it always does. And I I'm really I've never been someone who starts way too hard. Um and I know everyone's different with that, and like this is definitely a strategy that lends itself more to consistency than having one-off good races, but I think it also lends itself to not DNFing. And um it's kind of always how I've raced. I've even in like cross-country in high school, I I was never like even if I was the favorite to win, I was never really first off the line. Like, um, I mean, my college teammates knew very well, like I could run a great 5k. I had no idea how to run the mile. Like, I don't really have that quick speed. Um, I don't think I ever really have. I think I can have it at the end compared to other people, but that's not because of you know, natural speed. That's just because I'm I'm I have saved more and I've been more efficient throughout the long race. So I used I there were a few 10K races where I like had a kick at the end. But as everyone knows, like kicks at the end of long races is about fitness, it's not about speed. So yeah, I'm feeling like where my fitness is at, yeah, it's important to be within myself for that first 20, 25k. And then I think, yeah, game on. I mean, I'm I'm stoked to um just be mixing it up with these guys. I mean, it's speaking of short trail, like at Worlds, I mean, it's gonna be a very similar field. I think I talked to a bunch of those guys after the race at Worlds, and I want to say 80% of them said they're running OCC. So, and I mean, now we have Francesco and Petterendal. Um, so it's like that field plus a little bit, maybe. Um yeah, it's really exciting. And I think guaranteed we're gonna pull each other to some great performances. So um, yeah, and we got a good American contingent, so I'm stoked about that too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, I agree. It's gonna be interesting to see how the Americans like I my prediction is two Americans in the top 10 for sure. I I I think that happens this year just because of who we're bringing and and just the depth. Um, dude, one thing I I admire about you, I don't even know if you feel this way about yourself. You kind of just hit it. Um, you're cle like you could close really well. Like, I think that leads to a lot of success. And I don't know if that's that's obviously a fitness component, but I think there's some mental stuff to that as well. I don't know if you feel the same way, but that's just something I've observed in you becoming one of the most consistent, if not the most consistent American, kind of on the scene in the last few years. I mean, with the world's performance being the first American, obviously broken arrow, you absolutely demolished this year, you had a fantastic year. You've had a lot of really good races. Um just kind of carrying that in. Like, do you do you think that's a strong component of yours is being able to close really well?
SPEAKER_00Um first of all, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. Um and and I think so. Yeah, I think um whether it looks like it's closing hard or it's really just not fading as much. Um, it's hard to say. Like I'm sure it just depends on the race. I think, you know, it was even at Worlds last year, like I felt like, yes, I was closing well compared to the average of what was happening around me. But there were still like I remember a Japanese athlete, and I'm blanking on his name now. I think he ended up 15th. Um, he was closing on me hard on the last climb. And there were a couple of Europeans also just smashing that last climb. And I've and I was passing guys too, but I was, I could tell I was also getting caught. So um, yeah, I think when you're in the race, it's so hard to like you're just yeah, you're in your own like suffer fest um or pain cave, as Courtney likes to say, and um, you're just working, you're working on it and you're just chipping away at the at the pain. So um yeah, no, I I I think it is just I think you're right. It's an experience thing. I've it's taken a long time to um figure out that strategy and like you know, not just come up with it, but actually execute it. And um but I I would say a lot of it comes down to sort of and I think I may have sort of touched
Course Recon And Key Terrain Changes
SPEAKER_00on this after Broken Arrow this year when Martin um interviewed me after the race. He asked me, like, oh, that move you made on on um on Chad Hall, like like tell us about that moment. And I was like, I was like, I don't even know what your reference like I don't think it was this, you know, I I just don't I was like that was instinct. It's just it's racing instinct. I think it, you know, people talk about racing IQ, and I think it's a good way to it's a great term because you just it's a craft, right? It's like it's very nuanced, and it's been that's my favorite thing right now. I mean, even I mean, I love exploring the terrain that we have in the West. I think that's kind of even regardless of racing, I would be exploring mountains. I love it. But when it comes down to racing, the best part is just dialing in that craft and figuring out what your strengths are and uh and then just seeing how it all plays out. I mean, it's a roll of the dice every time, and you play out your you, you know, you execute your strategy and you see how it stacks up against everyone else's, and and um, and then you also have to combine that with how you're feeling on the day of the race, because as I found out, it's yours and all, like you're not gonna feel great every day. Um, and some days you just have to survive, and other days you're like, man, I am in it, you know, and this is it's you know, it's and it's really exciting to be in it. Um so yeah, that's always what I am hoping for is just to be in it at the end. And uh, yeah, if it looks like I'm moving quickly, I guarantee you I don't feel like I am. I'm just I'm just doing the very best that I possibly can. And uh, and I think when you know that like all your other competitors are doing the same, I mean, there's just no better feeling. Like, yeah, we are we are killers out there. We all want to be each other, but as soon as we cross the finish line, it's like massive respect. And like, I've been watching these guys training for years now, some of them. And I mean, Fredo's a great example. Like, I he stayed with me a couple of years ago, or I think the year before, yeah, two years ago before he won Worlds. Um, and like I almost feel like I was the American who discovered him. I was like, I had a feel like he was just doing everything right, you know, like all the things, all the recovery, all the um sleeping really well. And it was, and then it was like a year later he won worlds. So it's like, wow, um that's actually not that surprising to me. Um, but it was to everyone else. Um, so yeah, I'm sure there's a guy like that out there that we don't we don't know who he is yet, and we're about to find out on Thursday.
SPEAKER_01Doing everything right. No, I totally agree. I always love those dark horses that you've never even heard of, that just uh, you know, we like get to learn new names and people, you know, that have been working so hard.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know. Unlikely that that person, that total, like these days, like a total dark horse is probably not gonna come out of nowhere and win. But it but it could be that person who's been grinding for years and getting 10th to 20th, and that 10th to 20th range in this 50k distance is brutal because it's very high-level performing, but it's not sticking out to anybody uh because you're just getting buried in the results. And uh, and um, you know, I mean, like here's another example Adam Scholand at uh Sierras and all. What a performance, dude. I was stoked. I mean, I knew we all anyone who knows him knows that he has been underperforming for like years um and just not having the day he is hoping for. And I saw him on the start line and I was like, oh my God, like if you have a day today, this is this is the stage to do it on. And then he went and ran 241. You can do it on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_01I cannot wait to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah, no, it's uh he's a you know, so that's a good example of like there's guys waiting in the wings, you know. I mean, there's and there's women too, of course. There's there's there's athletes waiting in the wings, and they're um, yeah, we never know when they're gonna we're when they're gonna pop off. So I feel like I'm starting to become, yeah, like I'm more of a fan of the sport than I ever have been. Um and it's fun to be like both a fan and a competitor.
SPEAKER_01So well the people are so cool, man. Everybody's so nice and kind, and you know, everybody works so freaking hard, you know, and and you just I don't know, at least on my end, like you just respect that hard work, and everybody's putting in, you know, they're dedicating, you know, their existence to this in a in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_00And it's not for money. I mean, there's really noble, you know. Yeah, it's uh yeah, it is. And like maybe that's just kind of the Goldilocks place that we're at in the sport is like it hasn't completely, I mean, you can see it starting to happen, right? There's definitely more money coming in. These teams are supporting their athletes way better than they ever have. So that that process is starting where there's there's money, but I still don't see it ever getting to a point like cycling or um, you know, some of our you know, giant sports in America. Um it's funny.
SPEAKER_01I was reading uh, I don't know where I I think I was reading an article the other day about Tate, obviously, you know, winning the tour, but like I guess he gifts everybody on UAE, like they they do some sort of gift to everybody, and he was getting them all Rolexes. I was like, well, that would be the day, you know, that you know someone does that in trail running. Like that it's not gonna happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'll I'll be waiting for my my tutor watch from uh from Courtney. You know, uh I'm just whenever you want to send it over, Courtney. I'm I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01That was dude, that was a surprising sponsorship. Not not for Courtney, but for uh just to see them kind of enter the sport. Uh yeah. It was a confusing one, but definitely interesting. I think it's cool. Whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_00It sort of makes sense. I mean, in a way, if you if you don't
Racing A Deep Field Without Panicking
SPEAKER_00people might not want to admit this, but I do think our market is kind of like golf. I mean, there's the let's be honest, the majority of participation is middle-aged men who have a lot of disposable income. Um I mean, that's what you see every time you go to a Euro race. I mean, I wish that weren't the case, like especially for women, but um, but yeah, I think that is kind of you can't ignore that, you know, um, from the financial side. So um it kind of does make sense. Like I was kind of waiting for something like that, or like a big car brand, like Audi or something. Yeah. I mean, I know Remy, I don't know. Yeah, it's it's it's cool to see, and it it means that it's a change in the market for sure. Um, it's it's probably only the beginning, too.
SPEAKER_01So oh yeah, dude. This is it's gonna get I think it's gonna get wild over the next few years. We're gonna see the sport completely transform. I hope we still stick to like what makes it so special. And I think the athletes will stay true to that ethos, a lot of them, you know.
SPEAKER_00But you can have both. Yeah. Yeah. You can have the I mean, I think that's what a race like Sears and all it illustrates so well is you can have the super high octane elite side of the sport, and it's all sponsors and who's running what times and who is getting what support and all that, that whole game. And yes, that's a that can be people can look at that and be like, man, that's the soul of the sport is gone. And it's like, well, but then there's 6,000 people participating in the race that you know start anywhere from four to seven in the morning before the elites. Like, and they're stoked to be there too. And there's part of the reason they're stoked is because the elites have elevated the level to such a high degree. Um, and you know, and then at the same time, like there's always gonna be mom and pop races. I mean, I think I heard Max talk about this when he was last on the pod, like uh Max King. And um, yeah, he, you know, there's always gonna be those mom and pop like local races. And uh it doesn't mean that there can't also be these like highly sponsored um competitive events, because for the athl for the professional athletes, that's what we need. I mean, we you know, the mom and pop races are great. Don't get me wrong, I love showing up to them um every once in a while. And you know, I'm probably due for one of those races um sometime soon. But like, um, but we need we need to be paid for the level that we're competing at.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, yeah. Yeah, something's gotta pay the bills, dude. I I totally agree.
SPEAKER_00And you can't you can't be at the highest level without this is my second summer going full-time with running, and yeah, it it is necessary to to stay competing at this level.
SPEAKER_01Um Well, there's so much people don't, and this is a whole nother side. We'll we'll save this for the next podcast, but like, yeah, there's so much that goes into it behind the scenes. Like for like people just think, oh yeah, I run 20 hours a week, and that just is what it is. Like, no, dude, there's a lot of extra shit that goes into it from like at least like recovery and just all of the stuff, and it adds up from a time perspective, like it becomes a full-time job in so many ways.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know. I mean, if it were as simple as like the more you run, the the faster you run, a lot of people would be good at this sport. But it's like anything, it's it's not that simple. It's about moderation, it's about uh quality and making sure you're getting that recovery. Like it's like I said, it's a it's a craft, and I think um people new to the sport are just uh still learning that it's it's a craft and not just um uh just uh simple activity or hobby, you know?
SPEAKER_01So true. Now to change the subject, but back to OCC. Sure. And this is a this is a per very personal question, but like what is your expectation? I mean, and I don't know if you've thought this one through. Is it have the best day you possibly can have? Is there a placement you want that you think is is you know a sign of of you getting to that level or being at that level that you think that you're at? Um is there a time? Like how how do you reconcile that as far as like where you want to be?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, um, you know, it's funny, after um Broken Arrow, it was really nice to hear from everyone that was stoked about my performance. And to me, it feels very similar to the year before, um you know, which is essentially 10 to 15 minutes behind Eli, right? Um and I realized after that that I'm just not satisfied with like I don't I don't want to stay where here. That's part of the reason for that change I made in shifting to a lot less drinking, is just committing more to this sport because I don't want to constantly be 10 or 15 minutes behind Eli, who has proven that he's the best in the world in the 50k distance uh on his best day. So um, I know he's running CCC, but he uh but like, yeah, so I guess I want to level I definitely, yeah, the goal is to level up. I mean, of course. Um, and I think realistically, like the reach goal is top 10. Um, yeah, definitely eyeing top 10. To be honest, there was a time earlier this spring where I was saying I wanted to podium. Um, now that I see the field, I'm gonna try to be more realistic than that. I think, I mean, sure, of course, podium would be amazing. But if I'm being realistic, I'll be thrilled with a top 10 in that field. I mean, that would be, I think it would almost guaranteed be over a 900 score uh if you want to go by UTMB index, which is seeming, seemingly more and more important these days. Um, but then yeah, I mean, I mean, there's there's there's I always have sort of like uh, geez, I mean, time goal is hard to say because it's a brand, it's kind of a brand new course. Um, it's a little bit hard to like, but I'm guessing that will take a top 10 will take five and a half, um under five and a half. Yeah. Um I it is longer, and I I'm guessing the times will be slightly slower. But if we get good weather, um maybe that's not the case. So I'm I'm still guessing that the wind will be around a five hour, a five hour run. And and maybe the top 10 is actually more like you know, 520 to 515. So I think under five and a half time-wise, I'm also really happy with that's a super, super strong performance. I mean, there's almost 11,000 feet of climbing over like a 60k. So that, you know, numbers wise, that I'll be thrilled with that as well. Um uh yeah, so that's kind of kind of where I'm at. And top 10 is definitely definitely on the mind the most. And uh, I mean, of course, if I'm in the fit in the teens, I'm still thrilled. Um, but yeah, I mean, would love to improve on on the world's performance. Um and I'm also very aware that like those aren't just gonna happen every year either. Um so yeah, I'm I'm feeling like I know I've controlled the variables that I can control. And now now it's uh yeah, like I said, you you roll the dice and um can't control who's in the race. So yeah. Place is kind of a tricky, it's a tricky thing to have a place goal. But um now that I have seen the field, I think that seems like a good reach goal.
Goals For Top 10 And Time Targets
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I dude, I think, I mean, I think you're spot on. I think top ten is is uh like I would be There's a few people in mind that I think would be, you know, uh in that group and as far as Americans go. And yeah, you're yeah, 100%, dude.
SPEAKER_00You're uh Chris Christian and Taylor, I think Taylor's not reading Taylor's doing uh CT2.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00My bad. Yeah, that's um thank you. Um but anyway, Christian, yeah, after that CEOs and all, I mean, I would I think he should be going for podium, and I think he could even win. Because if you're going for podium, I mean, just just go for the win, like obviously. Um so yeah, stoked to see how he does. He's been super nice since C.O. Zenal, too. Um he just brings everyone up in a really nice way. I just I saw him out running today as well, and uh he's the man, he's just got great vibes. So yeah. Um,
Trail Running Money And Keeping The Soul
SPEAKER_00yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think it's gonna be a great race. Um shoe-wise, what are you uh what are you doing shoe wise? Are you doing Parigio Pros or Talentos?
SPEAKER_00Parigio Pro, yes. Um sorry, what was the one you asked about?
SPEAKER_01Have you gotten your hands on the Talentos yet? I've only seen I have not run in them yet. They they are sick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I am uh in the same shoes as you, uh, no pun intended. Um but yeah, I I haven't had my hands on the talentos either. I would love to. Um and I will maybe have a better answer for you when I talk to the Italians uh on race week. We'll we'll we'll get some into the states soon. I was talking to Jonathan Wyatt too, um about shoes. And I don't think they even it the sense I get, I mean, maybe I'm wrong here. This is just you know, totally spitballing, but um I don't think they understand the product that they have. Like the PreGR Pro is incredible. And I don't even I don't think they maybe the sales are starting to show that that that's the case, but like it is crazy. I mean, I've done it, I've done everything in that shoe for two years now, and uh I I've I've probably gone through 10 pairs of them and they hold up. I mean, I can do 500 miles in like gnarly mountain terrain in them and they they hold up. Um they're just a great all-around shoe. It's it's really incredible. I mean, obviously they're they're good on technical terrain because the grip is insane. Um and I think that's just a well-known thing about La Sportiva shoes, but they're also very good on runnable stuff. I mean, it's very responsive. I'm stoked for the Pretty Geo Pro 2, which I've heard is even more responsive. Um yeah, I just feel like they need to, they don't I hope they don't tweak too much, you know. Um, and they just kind of like improve the foam just slightly if it if it makes sense. But anyway, yeah, I can't say I'm very involved with product stuff at all. Um I just am so fortunate that they came out with that shoe when they did. Um, and I think we all are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you uh do you train in it too? Or do you because I only do my workouts? I only do my workouts in it. And then I'll do it.
SPEAKER_00I don't I can't wear other I can't like I tried the maxes, I can't do it. They're they're too heavy, they're too clunky, they're not responsive enough. Same with the just normal prodigios. Like as soon as they put out the pro, it just made all that other stuff irrelevant in my in my head. That's how it feels to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the best show. I and I I yeah, I no I normally run in the prodigios, the regular the new because I feel like the twos, I don't know, and this might be too much inside baseball, but from what I've heard, I think you were in that call as well. It's like in this, they're made out of the same factory now. They used to be made out of a different factory, and I feel like there's a different feel to the prodigio twos, at least for me, as far as like ground underfoot.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't feel the responsiveness in the same way as the pros in the PRDGO team. But they did improve on the original prodigio for sure. Yeah. Uh there were a couple of design things there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the twos are or sorry, the just the pros. Yeah, just insane. What a shoe. Um out of this world.
SPEAKER_00And I'll be in the whites, I think, for the race because um white is the lightest.
SPEAKER_01That is true. That is I don't think people know this. The uh that is it's a different shoe compared to the other colors for some reason.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why. Yeah, and there's another hack out also that I've um, and um yeah, I don't think this is inside. I mean, this is just for anyone who has pretty Geo Pros. No, you can take the um stuffing out, you know the stuffing in the in the tongue or what what would be the tongue? And um, I mean, I love the sock fit in general, but that that padding between the laces and the top of the foot, um you can take it out. Uh, so you don't have those pads. And um, yeah, my my friend did this, and it's I haven't actually tried it yet, but it has worked for several people and it makes the shoe quite a bit lighter in general, but especially when it gets wet. Um, so anyway,
Shoe Picks And Prodigio Pro Tweaks
SPEAKER_00another thought. Um, they should uh I just think it's funny when brands make up an amazing product and then they're like, but we're just gonna add like a couple ounces because it's like more comfy. And it's like, no, what if what if you did no, just make it as slim as possible? Um, but obviously, yeah, everyone needs something slightly different. And um yeah, I'm I'm feeling really lucky with our the the gear that Laszbo is putting out right now.
SPEAKER_01For sure. Even the apparel's been great. Like this year, I know we just had that uh that thing to fill out for the apparel, and I was like, apparel's great. I'm pretty I'm pretty stoked on it. Like at least they're doing a good job. Yeah, yeah. Stuff is great.
SPEAKER_00So the uh I really like the front range collection, um, like the casual wear stuff. I'm wearing the one of them, the um flannel right now, and it's it's great. Like it's light, and I can I feel like I could actually run in it, but also go to dinner in it. I love apparel like that. Like that's versatility. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, uh, dude, thank you so much for coming on,
Closing Thanks And Foot Care Sponsor
SPEAKER_01man. I am wishing you the best of luck. Cannot wait to cheer you on at OCC. Uh obviously we'll be in touch uh you know post-race. We'll have to catch up at some point in time. Next time you find yourself in the springs, uh, let me know, dude. We'll have to get out for a run, or maybe I'll come up to Leadville. We'll get out for something.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, definitely. Either way, great running in both places.
SPEAKER_01So for sure, dude. Well, best of luck. We'll be in touch. Thanks, man. I really appreciate your time.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, James. Have a good one.
SPEAKER_01Guys, how's your feet? Like, seriously, uh how's uh how are your feet doing? Um I'm sure if you're listening to this, you're a runner or an athlete of some kind, uh, in one way or another. And as most athletes do, everybody struggles with injury one way or another, and foot care is like one of the most important things when it comes to injury mitigation or just dealing with injuries in general. Um, everything from plantar fasciitis, peroneal issues, uh, a lot of people deal with blisters in the sport. Uh kind of the list goes on. It's a great opportunity for me to talk about our partner, Cetus US. Um, I've been partnering with them for a couple of years now, and man, the products have just gone such a long way for me as an athlete personally. Um couple months back, I'd been dealing with some peroneal issues and some planter issues on my left foot, and uh got hooked up with some of the Cetus insoles. Um, it was the trail three feet, and man, it went such a long way in helping me rehab that foot and just helped a ton. Um, on top of that, big fan of the socks and big believer in the socks as well. I use them all the time because they're amazing. Uh, but in all seriousness, I'm sure you've seen like Jim Walmsley, Hidden Hawks, and then you know, some of the best women in the sport, like Robin Lesh, um, or even on the ski side, uh Jesse Diggins rocking uh the Cetus feet. And um, for me personally, it's the run in atomic comfort. I absolutely love those socks. Um, it's got reinforced protection, it's got a great grip strip to keep the sock from kind of moving within uh the shoe. It's breathable and it's got great protection, especially for technical trails for your heels and your toes. And uh above all else, it's breathable, so it's not gonna stink too bad. Uh, my wife definitely gives uh thumbs up when it comes to that. So I don't have two stinky feet or stinky socks. So if you haven't already, go online, check out CDS.us, and if you find something you like, use code SteepStuff. It's good for one use only. It's gonna get you 20% off your car and uh giving you guys the hookup. So hope you enjoy it. Check it out, CDS.us insoles and socks, they've got the best in the game.
