How to Keep a Mental Health Tool Alive with Dr. John Ogrodniczuk

Dan is joined by Dr. John Ogrodniczuk, a Professor of Psychiatry and Director of the UBC Psychotherapy Program and founder of HeadsUpGuys.org.

In part 2 of this conversation with Dr. John Ogrodniczuk, Dan and Dr. Ogrodniczuk dive into the operational aspects of running HeadsUpGuys.org, including team dynamics and funding challenges. Dr. Ogrodniczuk discusses the evolution of the site, the importance of community support, and the role of staff with lived experience. Then, Dr. Ogrodniczuk shares insights on the unexpected successes and failures of the website, the necessity of learning and adapting in the field, and outlines what they future may hold for HeadsUpGuys.org.

Special Guest: Dr. John Ogrodniczuk

Check out HeadsUpGuys

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https://psychotherapyandappliedpsychology.com/

Transcript

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[Music] Building a public mental health resource is hard. Keeping it alive for years is a totally different problem. Because once something works, you inherit a new set of challenges, funding, staffing, measuring what people would actually use, deciding what to build next, and quietly, letting go of the parts you poured yourself into when the data says, "Nobody cares." In the second half of my conversation with my guest, we stay focused on the operating reality of running a public facing mental health tool. We talk about how heads up guys was initially kick-started, what it takes to fund it now, and what it feels like to repeatedly ask for money when that's not in your personality. We also get into the parts of the site that surprise them with massive uptake like self checks and real life stories. Plus, at least one, we thought this was brilliant, and basically no one used it, feature that they eventually removed. And we end with practical advice for clinicians and researchers who want to build something similar. But first, if you're new here, I'm your host, Dr. Dan Cox, a professor of counseling psychology at the University of British Columbia. Welcome to Psychotherapy and Applied Psychology, where I dive deep with leading researchers to uncover practical insights, pull back the curtain, and hopefully have a little bit of fun along the way. If you enjoy the show, do me a huge favor and subscribe on your podcast player, or if you're watching on YouTube, hit the like and subscribe button. So, the best ways to help us keep these conversations going. This episode starts with the part that everyone wants to know, but nobody talks about. How do you actually fund a public mental health tool after the startup money runs out? So, without further ado, here's part two of my conversation with Dr. John Agrond-Juck. The funding from the outset was provided through a grant by November. And so, you know, and I'm really grateful for that, because we wouldn't have been able to do this otherwise. But that was a very short term funding, what they call catalyzing funds. We'll help get this thing going, and then it's up to you to figure out what to do. They weren't interested in funding beyond that initial startup period of a couple years. And after that point, you would-- Sorry, just to jump in real fast. So, when you-- That's interesting. They gave you catalyzing funds. They said, "Here, get a big thing started. Then it's your problem." So-- Yeah, I have some opinions about that model, and I don't see eye to eye with them about the approach that they take. But nonetheless, it got us kick-started. And, you know, I've learned a lot since about how to raise funds through other mechanisms to keep this in going. And I'm still learning every day. But we really have to go to the public. We had to let people know, you know, we are a donor-funded program. This thing does not exist without support from the public. So whether it's individual donors, different foundations, family foundations, businesses, corporations, all of those are, in effect, different revenue streams that keep us going. Oh, another very big one. People holding fundraising events on our behalf. So, you know, it might be a dark tournament. It could be trivia night at a pub. Lots of different kind of running events in the summertime, scores of golf events. Probably the biggest one that we've had is a whiskey. Excuse me, a whiskey tasting event. So people being very creative about how to bring attention to mens men's health in general, to heads up guys in particular, and raise funds to support our work. Wow. So it's all then, at this point, it's all donor funds. Yes, 100%. Wow. Okay. So in the, from when you started this to where we are now, have there been, you know, so it sounds like you applied and got that first big, they're not long big, but that both the first big, the first shot in the arm of funding from November, have there been any other grants that you've applied for, or that you, that have been used to fund the project since? We have applied for grants, but not in a traditional sense. We apply for grants to say there's larger foundations that have a systematic approach for grant requests, so we'll, we'll write a grant application. Sometimes if a large corporation has a foundation associated with it, and they get many people asking for money, again, there's a systematic approach where you actually have to submit a grant application. Those don't look like your typical research grant application far from it. And they're honestly a lot easier to do, although they're not easy in and of themselves, but, you know, a research grant application takes so much time and effort, so thankfully these aren't like that. So we do some of those, but a lot of the support we get, I would say, is organic. People reaching out to us to say, "Hey, love what you do, thinking of doing a charity golf tournament this summer. I love for you guys to be the recipients of that," or just people hitting our donate button on our website and donating. And then, you know, from a sort of business corporate perspective, that's where a lot of light work is done. You know, it's not common for businesses to reach out to us. It's the other way around. And, you know, fortunately, we've been able to connect with a lot of generous companies to help the work that we're doing. In my relationship with you, you don't strike me as the type of person who's super comfortable going and asking people for money. You were so right about that, Dan. Yeah, it's not easy. It took me a long time to get over that. I still struggle, you know, it's like, but what I've come to recognize is the work that we're doing is really important. It's literally life-saving, and I don't use that in a flip-and-kind of way. People have told us repeatedly, "You guys have saved my life." And it's like, I have to recognize what we're doing is really important to a lot of people. And so me asking for money is not for me. It's not for heads of guys. It's to help all the other people out in our communities, you know, friends, families, colleagues, you know, anybody, anywhere. Guys are struggling out there. They deserve help. They need help. We're in a position to provide that help. So I use that, and I will approach companies, and it's like, "Guys are struggling out there. We can help them, but we need your help to help them." And so that's the angle I've taken. And it's a very honest, authentic approach that it helps me engage in those kinds of asks. And fortunately, it resonates with a lot of people. I would guess that when you first started this, the site that your team was a lot smaller and it's grown over the years. And so you were wearing a lot of these hats and you've been able to delegate some of them at this point. Yes, I have, fortunately, because otherwise it's too much for me. And it's important that all of the staff have a sense of responsibility and autonomy and doing. Because what's also important is our staff. Everyone on our staff has lived experience. So it's not like a bunch of people who are disconnected from the work that we're doing. It's like, "No, they are the guys who have lived through this. They know through their own experience what it's like." So they know also what other guys are going through and what they need. So that's fundamentally important to the work that we do. And it's important to me that the staff feel like they have some, you know, a sense of expertise to bring forward and giving them those responsibilities to go and serve others. So how do you balance this with all the other work that you do? You know, you're a professor, you're a very productive researcher. You oversee the psychotherapy program. Like how do you, you know, yeah, how do you, I mean, have you look, have you done the anxiety producing accounting of how many hours a week you put into this? I try not to think about how many hours a week I put into this. That would, that would be good for me. It's, it's hard work. I'm not going to lie. And sometimes it can feel like it's to the point of being overwhelming, which is important going back to giving the staff a lot of autonomy and responsibility. Because I can't be on top of everything all the time. And in fact, I'm, I'm working toward not removing myself completely, but removing myself even more and giving them more responsibility to, you know, approach our next decade in a different way. Because you're right between the other things that I'm doing in this. It's, it's, it's too much. You know, I get, I get tired. And I, I've been able to manage well, I think, you know, I, I like being active. I, I share with other people. I've got good colleagues. Like you, Dan, you know, just the fact that we can talk about the, the stuff, you know, not on the podcast, but, but off air, it's helpful for me. And, and, you know, my wife plays a really important role in supporting what I do. And sometimes she's, you know, just there to be a sounding board. Sometimes to hold up a mirror to me and say, hmm, you know, you, you need to look at what, what you're doing and make sure you don't burn yourself out. And, and that's, that's important. And so I've been able to manage. And, you know, as I progress through my career, I recognize that I need to separate some parts so that those parts can work more effectively on their own. Rather than me feeling like I have to manage all the strings. But that is right that that is a transition because at first and for many years in order to get this thing, being at the level that it is and being able to sort of sustain itself, if you will, or create like you did need to give all of that time and energy. Yeah, I did. You know, in retrospect, I'm not sure how I could have done it other ways. Maybe, maybe there were better ways, but I'm not aware of what those were. And I didn't have anybody to serve as a model or mentor me through this because this. This was really new and unique experience for me and anybody else that I encountered like I just didn't know anybody who did this. So I didn't know the best way to approach it. I just approach it and what I thought was the best way for me. And I think it's worked out. I don't think I do it differently if I did it again, but I do recognize now that heads up guys has become such a thing. It needs to be on its own, you know, the staff looking after, you know, fortunately I have amazing, amazing staff, you know, so that that helps tremendously. So that allows me some breathing room so I can work on those other things. What's something over the years on the website that like really succeeded that you didn't necessarily think, oh, this is going to be like a huge success, but like really in any facet, something that sort of was like, oh, wow, that was really important and valuable. A couple of things that I mentioned already, one was the self checks and we started with one self check. It was the PHQ9 Depression screening tool. We knew that it would likely be one of the more popular things. We didn't realize how popular like we've had, I think over 600,000 men fill this thing out. It's been, it's been the most visited page on the site outside of the homepage. So that was somewhat surprising. It's so funny that it's hard to interrupt, but it's so funny you said that because like what, you know, so I'm one of those 600,000 now because I did it last week, but I did like, I did like four or five of them. Like of this just because you know, I don't know. There's just something fun about it. It's like, oh, I wonder what else I'm going to say. Yeah. So anyway, I just that that's interesting that without even thinking about it as you were talking, I was like, oh, yeah, I did that. Like that was one of the things on the website. Like I did, and I didn't do just one. Like I did like three or four of them. So I was like, oh, what's this one click? Then I'm going to spend three minutes feeling it. Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. And so lots of guys are like that. Yeah, it's so funny. But anyway, I interrupt you. Oh, no, no, the other thing I had mentioned the real life stories. We didn't know at all. It's like, yeah, we think these are really important and guys told us that something like that would be important for them. We didn't realize the kind of impact it would have shared with you a few minutes ago about people sharing their feedback with us. And so often they're referencing other men's stories, helping them feel not alone, getting some good tips from that. That that's been really quite eye opening. And I guess those would be the two biggest ones. The therapist directory we anticipated would get a lot of attention from our visitors as well. And definitely it, it has. So that's been less surprising and more validating, I guess. So what has there been anything over the years that you guys did that sort of did that did not resonate that there was their big fail that happened. They're like, oh, yeah, that's no longer on the site anymore because nobody liked it. Yep. One of the. Yeah, well, you're going to hit some home runs and sometimes you're going to strike out. And one of the original features of this site was something that it tried to personalize information. And this is before AI. So now AI can do all this if you have an AI agent, which I'm not sure we will have that. But anyway, it was a point where people would take a bunch of boxes. You know, tell us what you're interested in. Tell us why you're here. And based on the boxes that guys ticked, we would then give them related articles. So it's like, well, I'm here for help for myself. I'm struggling with sleep and social isolation. So, you know, we would give them some articles on, on sleep and social isolation. There's a way to personalize the content to them and make it easier for them to navigate through the site. And honestly, we thought this was freaking brilliant. I think it's good. It sounds like a good idea to me. Yeah. Not many people used it. And it's like, oh, that was really surprising. And so few people used it. We eventually just took it out. Because I would imagine that was a lot of work. It was. Yeah, it was. Huh, that's interesting. Yeah, you would think that. Yeah, that's interesting. Is there. Okay, so. Have you gotten any pushback or criticism regarding. You're regarding the site or anything you've had on there or anything like that. No, a few times people have asked, you know, how come just for men? Well, it's like, well, and I'm very blunt. I said, because a lot of men are killing themselves because they're not getting the help that they need and deserve. So this isn't about privileging men's health whatsoever. This is a way to provide men with the help that they need so that they can stick around a bit longer. And then when I share the stats around male suicide and it's like, uh, okay, I get that. That makes sense. Sometimes they'll say, have you ever thought of doing like a heads up gals and it's like my wife brought that up years ago. And it's like, yeah, I think it's a great idea. But it's like, I'm not going to be the one to do that because it requires building a new site and managing it just the same we're doing this. And I, I don't have the bandwidth for it. It's like, that's, that's a whole thing unto itself. And I would say also the expertise, right? Like you, you happen to be an expert who has spent decades studying and working with men. So I'm not the guy to do it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I say that. So, you know, outside of that, we've never had criticism about anything. In fact, it's been gratitude. Yeah. Oh, what's one or two things that you've been, that you sort of been forced to learn a lot about that you had no expectation of one of the things that popped in my head was like search engine optimization. But are there, you know, is there one or two things that stand out that's like, oh, yeah, I had to learn a lot about this. And man, I did not see this coming. And I really didn't have any interest in it. Well, we talked about fundraising and that would be the first thing that comes to my mind. I did not anticipate doing that. I knew Jack shit about it. I felt very intimidated and reticent about doing it. But I needed to. I had to learn. And I'm still doing it. Still learning as far as the technical stuff. I have to admit I, I've learned about things like SEO and all the different kinds of Google analytics, you know, bounce rate and all that kind of stuff. But I'm very fortunate that I really skilled staff that look after that. So I don't have to. You know, I know what I'm good at. I also know what I'm not good at. So the things that I'm not good at, I heard people do it. So it works out really well. So pie in the sky. If money weren't an option, if time effort is what is there something that you would want to infuse, you know, that you would want to add to the site that would really and sort of aligned with that. Are there certain things on the road map ahead that you see that are coming to the site? A couple of things that we're currently working on next steps. One, we're going to be developing a section on the site related to workplace mental health because we get a lot of folks reaching out to us that are in different work spaces looking for help. And sometimes it's just a matter of sending hamplets and brochures to them so that the employees know where to go. But, but often it's more than just that. So it could be like, how do I support a colleague who's struggling? How do I support an employee who's struggling? You know, what are some practices that we should have in place so that we can be better on top of mental health and not. Just in a place where we're struggling to respond to some sort of crisis. So, you know, if you think about it as adults, where do we spend most of our waking hours at work? So if we're struggling, if we go to work, do we park our struggles at the door and then we're fighting? No, we bring that stuff to work. And so the workplace in it of itself can be a place where support can be given in a way that is unique in other settings. We also recognize that the workplace in it of itself can be one of the things that contributes to people's struggles. So even helping workplaces, you know, think about their own environment and culture and how that can be good or bad for mental health. So that's one of the things that we're doing. Another one that we're excited about, we're starting an ambassador program. And this is a way to help, these are just regular guys or anybody, different communities and just want to share heads up guys that, you know, you know, have a conversation about mental health. Let people know about us as a resource if somebody needs it. And also every ambassador will be taking our peer support course. So in this way, what we're thinking of, it's one way to help increase capacity, if you will, in our communities for people who have the knowledge and the basic kind of skills, if you will, for supporting others. Because folks like you and I, Dan, you know, we could be busy to know and helping people professionally, but we'll never, ever be able to feel the need. There's always going to be more need than capacity to meet that need. So there's this big space, what do we do? And that's where peer support can come in and really make quite an impact. So this is one way of doing that while at the same time raising awareness of a life saving resource. So those are two sort of immediate things that we'll be working on. And you know, I've got ideas to know when, you know, if one of your listeners is somebody who's got like $5 million, I've got ideas for that. Yeah, $5 million, $500, $5 or 50 cents, just go to the website. There's a donate button. They will appreciate all donations are appreciated. Yeah, absolutely. So as we're sort of wrapping up here, is there, you know, for the mental health professional who might be interested in starting something in down this line, right? So whether it's a website or some other sort of knowledge mobilization translates. What advice do you have for them or what thoughts or considerations do you have for them? Take up the challenge, you know, it's good for us to challenge ourselves with difficult things, especially if we feel like it has some meaning behind it. If this is sort of a commercial activity, I don't know if I'm providing the best example of that. I'm not a business guy. I recognize there's probably some way to monetize what we're doing and make money, but it was never my intent and it never will be. I just don't know how to do that well. So I think if somebody's trying to say, I'd love to, you know, develop some courses and make some money. Maybe this isn't the best model to use and I'm not the best person to provide that. But if you're thinking of something similar, then I would say really think carefully about what you're doing and engage people in your target audience to help shape that vision. Because that's critically important. Bring people into the mix, whether it's those folks from the target audience, people who have skillsets to compliment your words to bring it to life, and really think carefully about scoping it out. We worked on our content architecture. I think that's the proper term for a very, very long time. Thinking about exactly what we're going to have, how people access it, you know, in the menu bar, how things are delivered. We really thought about that user experience from the get go and never lost sight of that. We wanted to make sure that user experience was good that people were getting something useful and helpful. Importantly, you know, we're talking about money donations, that kind of stuff. How are you going to keep this thing going? It takes money to get it going. It takes money to keep it going. You know, your idea is not necessarily a big, ambitious project. Like, heads up, guys turned out to be, but nonetheless, there's some effort that's required. Otherwise, you kind of just get this static website. Yeah, it might be a great source of information, but it's not something that is continuing and evolving. And I think that's the important part. And even with the social media aspect, I talked about social media. And it's like, that's a job. Like it, that's so much work. You know, I don't even have social media myself. I just feel so intimidated and overwhelmed by it and uninterested in it. But I recognize social media can have a positive role in our lives. But to do it right, to do it well requires a lot of effort. It's interesting sort of thing about your experience and sort of my experience with the podcast and stuff like that. One of the things that I've learned also is that you have no idea what it actually is going to take into. Until you do it, you know, and like, so there is something about, you know, doing the prep work and then recognize like you just sort of have to do it. And then, you know, be willing to get feedback and learn and pivot and change along the way. Absolutely that that openness to experience being flexible and adaptive. That's absolutely necessary to make a go of it because you're 100% right then you just until you start getting into, you know, getting your hands dirty. So to speak, you just don't know how this thing is going to go. You need that experience and you need to to respond to what you're learning through those experiences. So as we're closing is other than heads up guys, one word, all one word heads up guys dot org. Are there other places that we should point listeners. With regard to well, anything in terms of just like learning about the site interacting with heads up guys or is that the one stop shop they should go to. Yeah, it's a one stop shop. We got a lot of stuff there. So rather than giving you different page addresses, I would just say come to the site, poke around. There's a lot of stuff there. We mentioned social media just a moment ago. We do have a presence on, you know, a number of social media platforms. We share information engage people that way. But yeah, just take a visit to the site and look around. And all the social media handles and everything are on the sites. They can get there from there. Yeah, right. Wonderful. Well, John, I can't tell you how much I appreciate this. I've learned a lot. It's been it's been great and go check out the site everyone who's listening. Yeah, thanks. I really appreciate having a conversation with you about it. That's a wrap on our conversation. As I noted at the top of the show, be much appreciated if you spread the word to anyone else who you think might enjoy it. Until next time.[Music]