Annabel Rolley

Hear from PGA Member and psychologist Annabel Rolley as she reflects on her journey through playing, coaching, media and psychology, while exploring how a better understanding of the mind can improve the way PGA Professionals coach and connect with their students. Learn how the nervous system can influence performance under pressure, why improvement in the mental game requires a long-term approach, and the importance of communication, empathy and human connection in effective coaching. 

Learning outcomes:
• Understand the value of mentorship and how experienced PGA Professionals can shape your career, professional standards, and long-term development. 
• Recognise the importance of lifelong learning, volunteering, and contributing to the PGA profession beyond your day-to-day role. 
• Learn how building relationships with members, industry partners, sponsors, and fellow professionals can create opportunities throughout your career. 
• Explore the characteristics of a respected PGA Professional, including professionalism, service, mentoring others, and protecting the reputation of the Association for future generations.

🎧 ACE Credits Available

PGA Members can claim ACE Credits for listening to this episode.

Complete the ACE Audio Application Form and submit a short reflection on your key learnings.

Previous episodes are also eligible for ACE Credit applications.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to the PJ Professional Podcast, made by members for members. Join us as we unpack and celebrate the stories of the men and women who have helped shape your association as well as deep dive into personal development topics guaranteed to elevate your career. Let's tee off.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Welcome back to the PGA Professional Podcast. We are joined today with Annabelle Rowley, an old friend of mine, a member since 2010. Thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Oh, my absolute pleasure, Brent. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

I'm uh I'm really looking forward to this because you are a good player. You obviously went a little bit of a different route doing your uh, I guess back then a traineeship was a little bit of a different route to some of the guys that or girls that do it. And now you've dived into the the world of psychology, you've been a commentator, you've done you've done everything, right? So let's um let's just go back. How'd you first get into golf? And then when did you realize you wanted golf to be, you know, I guess part of your life long term?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Sure. So a lot a lot of different chapters have transpired. Uh, but the beginning was uh I was actually a tennis player. So I was a junior tennis player, represented Queensland, played national and state uh tournaments, and it was just uh such a passion and a joy for me. I grew up with a tennis court, I was a two-year-old hitting tennis balls, not golf. Uh so golf, I probably hit my first golf ball at a range at around 13 years old, but that's not really when I committed to the game. So I'd play sort of once a year, maybe at a range or a few holes, um, you know, through the teenage years. But I was really 16 or 17 when I started to play golf regularly. Um, so that was the catalyst, it was really my parents picking up the game. They were um, you know, golfers, they picked it up later on in life. Um, they joined Royal Queensland, and I was the youngest of four kids, and I started to just tag along with them. And I kind of realized uh there was uh a lot of benefit and a lot of uh fun to you know going on weekends away with my parents and enjoying these incredible golf courses and um you know exploring different areas. So it was golf was uh, I suppose um, you know, something that I just grabbed hold of very quickly and easily. So I guess to answer your question, when did I know that golf would be a part of me and a part of my life very early? So I would say that I could hit, you know, certainly the driver as far as I can today almost immediately. So it was a matter of refining my game. And so I kind of knew early on, I had I'd had lessons with uh Charlie Earp, um Ian Triggs, um, various pros that all said that I had a lot of potential. Um, but you know, who knows where that goes, right? So uh I suppose I suppose um I knew that I could do something with it, but I wasn't sure exactly what. And then so the journey began.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

And so we're talking like mid-teens now. I noticed like you you played college golf. So did you get very good very quickly in those late teen years?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

So I finished school at at Brisbane Girls Grammar, and um I was enrolled in property economics at the University of Queensland, and I turned up week one, and I was with a friend, and we were in a lecture, and I I literally was, you know, sort of almost falling asleep with boredom, and I just didn't know what I really wanted to do. I'd enrolled in that course because it was probably the best one for my you know, um, my OP, my finishing score, but I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I had a conversation with my parents saying, I'm not sure property economics is really where I want to be or where I want to go. And so my my parents said, Look, why don't you take a year off? We'll financially support you. I was a member at three different clubs, RQ, Intrapilli, and Nudgy, and I played golf every day. And in that year, I got my handicap down to about two or three. So, in in that space, that meant so at the end of that year, it meant that the QAS were looking at me, and that's I got I got a scholarship with the QAS, um, and then I was playing, you know, tournaments all around the country, and I was suddenly put into uh this um, you know, elite golfer platform, and here were all these girls that had played golf forever, you know, Sarah Kemp, um, Catherine Hall, Sarah Jane Kenyon, they were all playing off scratch, and here I was. I felt like I had absolutely no business being there. Um, in fact, now Nikki Garrett said to me one day, Are you American? Did you come from America? Because I just turned up from nowhere. I hadn't played junior golf. So um uh no very much Australian. Uh, but um yeah, so I guess I was thrust into elite golf, and and I I really did feel like I was floundering around a bit and I was sort of operating off what I'd call raw talent um and and just finding my way around golf courses. Um and it was only because my my brother was uh had an academic scholarship uh to a university in California, he was there, and I thought of college golf for me. And so then after a year year at the QAS, I then started to uh look into well, could could I go to America? And and so that's that was the next that was the next chapter.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

And and how did all that come about? Like was it was it a very quick transition for you going from you know the QAS over there? Did it take you six months, 12 months, and then how long did you actually spend there? Because I I went over to college as well, but I actually did one semester, came home for their summer to work, and then like back here to work, and then just never ended up going back across. But talk me through your experience there.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Mine was similar to yours. I I was only there for one year. Um, so I was older going over because as as I've mentioned, I had the year off, uh, I had the QAS year, I'd actually already done a year of university, so uh I kind of skipped that part, but I had some advice um from Mark Gibson saying if you don't know what to do, uh career well, education-wise, university-wise, why don't you do a bachelor of business at Griffith University? Because if you decide you want to do something with golf, like become a PGA member, there is a pathway once you have a degree to do a professional year. And I can get to that later. But so I've done a year of university as well. So I'm now a sophomore and I'm around, so I was, I think I was 20, 21. So I was a little older, you know. I was there with freshies that were 18. Um I did have a few that were a little bit older than that, but I I felt on the older side. Um, but getting back to your question, what was my experience like? Incredible in terms of, you know, I always say you're either winning or you're learning, and that was a year of learning for me. I did have some good results, but I still felt incredibly raw. But you know, to be um, you know, thrown into the you know the United States, there's whatever 350 million people, um, suddenly I've gone from you know an inexperienced big fish in a small pond in Brisbane um or Australia to a very small fish in a big pond. And I think I had this realization that there are you know scratch golfers like me or diamond dozen over there. Um, so you know, and and in one of my best tournaments, I think I finished third or fourth. Um, Stacy Lewis was the winner and was, you know, maybe 12, 14 shots ahead of me. So, you know, you started to get an idea of, you know, what what is it, what does it take to compete at this level? Um, and you you I started to get an idea of, you know, there's gonna be a bunch of girls that go on to their LPGA. And I I guess I started to think about is that something I want? Because this experience is pretty close, even though you're an amateur, to what traveling around and being a tour player would be like.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Um, but you know, and also the the university experience, so many lessons because you're juggling academics and travel. You I felt like I was hardly ever there. Um, you know, I had a full ride, which was great, but it was 70% pass rate, which doesn't sound too high, but when you're never there, that's what makes it harder. Yeah, makes it harder. And I felt um, I felt very stressed about that. I I'm a you know, I guess I'm a bit of a perfectionist, I like to do well, and that was weighing on my mind considerably, and it never had weighed on my mind at University in Australia. So that there was all sorts of challenges and complexities. There was homesickness, there was um, you know, inter-team dynamics, the coach, the girls, you know, there was all sorts of things. There was a culture shock. I was in Oklahoma, I was at the University of Tulsa. I literally arrived there and I was looking around and thinking, my goodness, like I'm in a place of cornfields and bow cut. Like this is drastically different to Australia.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

So I was in Paris, Texas, which was northeast, northeast of Dallas, right? We were 10 minutes or so from the Oklahoma border. So I know exactly. And it was the same sort of scenario. We turned up, and I was not a standout amateur or anything like that. I could play okay, but you get over there and I'm like, wow, this the depth of talent is it is crazy. And just going back, like you're I've had a few kids come through my program that have been uh other sport athletes as kids. So like you're into tennis and probably uh a bunch of other things, right? And essentially you lose those, or you haven't learned the skills of how to play golf compared to hitting it, right? You can go on a range and you can hit it well, or you can, you know, you can chip them part, but then putting it together and blending that into a low score, sometimes that's an art that kids learn 100% as they progress, and you're at 16 or 17 going, well, I can hit it great. And it probably would have been a bit daunting. You're around all these young girls that have played since they were five or six, and I I see it now. Like I've got kids that come through, and it's just it's hard. They're playing technique-wise, they're okay, but they're playing catch-up with um learning how to score.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

That's right. And and look, I mean, there's we can think of this like the developmental years, you know, this is psychology foundations by Sigmund Freud. You know, those years, there is no doubt that you know, children are sponges. They absorb, whether it's sport, a language, maths, learning to read, you know, children can pick up everything very easily at a young age. And that, Freud would say the developmental years, what you what you take and what you absorb and learn in those years, call it zero to I don't know, 12, 14, sort of sticks with you for life, the good and the bad. So there is there is some theory that would justify what what you're saying there. On the other hand, I never like to use that as an excuse, you know, let's let's you know, let's face reality, Greg Norman started at 17.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

So there's always the outlier, there's always the anomaly. Um, but you know, I'm sure we'll get deeper into psychology, but you know, he maybe had the attributes that all lined up. Well, of course he did. So, you know, whereas, you know, for um us mere mortals, if you don't have every single thing lined up, you know, you you potentially, you know, you are at a disadvantage compared to kids that started when they were five. There's you know, there's an automatic part of the brain that's developed, you know, it it's automaticity, it's it's a you know part of the brain that allows movement to happen um, you know, uh seamlessly. And so if that's not you know developed, or there can be a nervous system problem that interrupts that part of the brain, then there's going to be problems.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

It's very interesting because there's a kid that I coached in our junior program for two years, so he's probably from not from nine till eleven, and he was he was really good. But typical other things come up. I want to play soccer, I want to play footy, and you know, that's fine, off he off he went. And he came back uh last year as uh I think he's 18 now. He started playing golf again last year, and his uh swing was impeccable and hadn't touched a club for seven years. But you could have other kids turn up that have never touched a club at the same age at 17, and they're goofy, right? And they're hard. It's like that all that foundation work, and this probably goes more in down the uh modal learning uh path versus the the psychology side of things, but uh it's it's just it's just interesting. You're seeing a lot of people now post-COVID picking up golf late into their 20s and 30s and just haven't really moved much compared to the young kids that move, and it's it's a it's a lot harder to coach them than than coaching athletes now.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

Oh 100%.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

So 2009, you did back then, obviously the traineeship. Can you just talk through it because you only had to do one year? It was the the final year, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

So uh there's I think there may be more than one degree or university that this is possible through, but from from my understanding, um certainly at the time, it was Griffith University on the Gold Coast. If you did uh a bachelor of business, mine was majoring in sports management, uh, along with a diploma um that was in, you know, I don't know, some sort of sports golf, you know, it was a golf diploma. Um it was um through it was called the PGA IGI back then. So if you completed that, then you you could do what's called a professional year. So you didn't have to do the the traditional three-year traineeship. Um, you had the degree, and I I suppose you've you've then just got to prove you know your playing ability through the Monday comps of the PGA traineeship, um, and also all the academic components plus the 40 hours a week work, um, which you know, I suppose I probably wouldn't have necessarily, it's like a sliding doors thing, but I wasn't thinking of doing the three-year course. So um chance would have it that on completion of my degree after my year, so I did the year at Griffith, the year at Tulsa, came back, finished the degree at Griffith, and then again I was sort of at a crossroads. I'm still not really sure what I want to do with myself. Um, this is you know, it seems to be a theme. Well, it was a theme for me in my you know early 20s, um, you know, very different to other people that have just such tunnel vision or a clear vision of what they want to do. I I didn't have that. Um so which, you know, is also um, as I've learned, a part of psychology that can easily be coached, but I didn't know that at the time. Yeah. Um, anyway, so I finish the degree and then I decide, well, I may as well do the professional year. I've got you know the ability to do it, I think it'd be great to be a PGA member. I I was, you know, didn't know all that much about the biomechanics of the game at that point, but I I was kind of drawn to understand learning and understanding about uh the biomechanics. I knew that would I knew that would fascinate me. And so that was probably the the part of it that I was really interested in and thought, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this. So um I wrote to Royal Sydney Golf Club. Um at this point, I was still in Brisbane, and um I said, I really want to work at your club. Um, you know, arguably it's one of the best in the country, and um, I've got my my eyes and my heart set on Royal Sydney, um, and they found a position for me as a trainee. So I did my professional year there, which was which was great. Again, a lot of learnings.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

And it's a classic case if you don't ask, you don't receive, right? So they didn't have a job, you just wrote to them straight off and said, I want to work there.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yes, which you know I think um is a very important skill to to have in life, to be able to put yourself forward and not be um afraid of a knockback. Um, I think too many people are concerned with, well, what if they say no? Well, what what if they say yes?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

And so, yeah, so funnily enough, uh, that was probably the beginning of me asking for every single job that I've ever had. So um, you know, I've worked for for Trump in New York, I've worked for Royal Melbourne, I've worked for New South Wales, I've worked for Golf Channel, and every single one of those I just asked. So there was no application, it was yeah, just a matter of asking. And I think why does that work so well, not just for me, but for everyone, because it shows initiative, it shows um desire, and I think people eat that up, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

That's I I think, and I this has recently happened with with me. So I was the golf ops manager at my club for 13 or 14 years, and we had um we amalgamated with Cogra Golf Club, and there's all these big changes coming in, and we got a new CEO. Yes, and I let I let him find his feet. And after about three months, I went in and I said, Hey, I need to make you aware that I don't want to do my job anymore. I want to coach full-time, but I don't want to work for the club, I want to work for myself, and I want to just pay you guys a fee to be here and then have other coaches under me. And it was very, very left field, right? Yeah, he read it all and he said, Well, I'd be silly to make you sit in that chair for 40 hours a week when you want to do that. He goes, Let's do it. Now, if I had just sat back thinking he'd say no, I'd still be in the same job, and I'm not gonna say miserable, but I'd be pretty much like not as happy as what I am now. So there is something there for anyone at any age like asking the the worst thing that they can say is sorry, no. Yeah, and then you're no worse off than what you were. You know, you're not you don't move down because of it, you just you just pick yourself up and move on.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, well, and I think people, you know, there's a a thing called self-actualization where people want to get the most out of themselves. You know, most people, it's a innate, you know, not everyone, you know, it depends what else is going on in their life, but you know, most people do want to see what they can do and get the most out of themselves. And and other people are clever, you know, like the CEO would have said, you know, Brent Dale is an asset to us, he wants autonomy, he wants to see what he can do, you know, on his own, he wants things this way. I mean, he'd be crazy to say no.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Um, you know, he said to me it's hard to get people to do a job, let alone want to do a job. So he said I'd be silly to say no.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah, yeah, intrinsically motivated.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah. All right. So moving on, once you completed and became a PGA member, what did the next sort of decade look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yes, so yeah, plenty of different things. So after I've after I finished with the PGA, I I had an ambition to just get straight into teaching, well, as soon as I could. Uh, so at the time um I was in America, I had a boyfriend in America that was playing on the nationwide tour at the time, um, which was a wonderful experience for me to see you know what the professionals uh are doing, their their life day in, day out. So I had uh a wonderful insight into that world through someone else, not me. But there was there was a little chapter there of um watching, you know, uh the you know the game's best operate. And um I think that was probably the beginning of my uh interest in the mental game. Um and you know, just seeing well, what why why are some people, why are some golfers able to get the most out of themselves and others aren't when this is a group that all of them unquestionably have the physical attributes. So, you know, it was just uh exposure to why are some performing and some aren't performing. Um, so that there was that chapter, and we can I'm digressing, I'm not answering your question, but you're that was that was a a really that was the first year I was in America. So that was a good chapter for me, but I was still uh eager to teach. So after that. Year, I then again uh I think I wrote to every private club in America, and I did get quite a few um interested emails and responses back, but it was Donald Trump's club in New York that were really keen. And I got an email that said, um, Mr. Trump has looked at your resume and he would like you to work at his club in New York. It's Westchester County. Um, can we can we talk? Can you come to New York to meet him? Uh, and that was that was sort of at the time, you know, he he certainly wasn't the president of the United States, but he was a big celebrity. And um, and it was it was something that I was really interested in. Uh, and I met with um, I met with, well, I'd accept, I'd met online or you know, on the phone with the uh director of golf, and he'd he'd spoken about the whole deal with me, and it was it was pretty dreamy for uh teaching golf in America. He said, you know, you'll be very busy on the tea giving lessons. Um, and then um Mr. Trump is very keen for you to play tournaments, and he will fund uh as many tournaments as you want to play, and it's important to him to have good players as his you know, teaching staff. So that combination, yeah, seemed like a dream to me. Um, and you know, I was predominantly teaching, and I tell you what, it was the the coolest experience for a teacher as a teacher because I was on the T back-to-back lessons all summer, six days a week, unless I was playing tournaments from you know 8 to 6 p.m. It it felt it felt like like it was a bit of a baptism of fire in terms of how steep the learning curve was because I hadn't been taught before, but it felt just like such a full and meaningful role. You know, I I was wanted Americans want lessons all the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah, it's very different. Was it a bit overwhelming, or did you ever get burnt out and feel like buggered from like because six days a week, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

And yeah, um, it was it was a lot, you know, it gets very, very hot in the Northeast. Uh I mean does in all different pockets in America, but it it was yeah, it was definitely exhausting. Um, but you know, I guess I that's where I really started to get into the biomechanics of the game and became quite obsessed with um technique and the golf swing, and and that was that was new to me. Um, so it was a great experience. And I did play a number of tournaments, they were all local, it wasn't the LPGA tour. I've never been to a Q school. Uh it was like New York Open and you know, smaller events in the area, which I did well in, and it was really fun. Uh, and it was it was sort of a uh a great experience, um, particularly just being so busy and so sort of wanted in the golf industry. It was a great foray into teaching golf. Um maybe, maybe too good because then I went on to learn that not every club has that sort of demand after that experience. Um, and that's you know that that did become a challenge.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

But I also remember I'm pre-correct me if I'm wrong, like I saw photos on your socials back in the day. Like, did you teach the Clintons?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

So like how how did you how did you go dealing with like I know they're just human beings and we're all the same, but these are people that we've heard about our whole lives. How did you go then standing on a T trying to fix their grip or fix their slice or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Well, in in my mind, they're in my domain, you know. I'm not I'm not walking into the White House, and I I'm you know, I'm not you know, I'm not trying to have a political conversation or even an intellectual conversation. Uh I, you know, so I I viewed it like that. Um, you know, I don't know, call me crazy, but I I think people are people. Uh I I don't know, you cut us open, we're all the same. Skin colour, whatever, we're all the same. So I think that's probably something that's like a fundamental that I was brought up with. So I I'm not intimidated around other people. Um, you know, I can see how incredibly talented they are, or you know, the impact that they've made, or you know, I can see that, but uh somewhere just deep in my heart, I just think people are people. So I I wasn't I wasn't overcome or overwhelmed. Uh, and the same with Trump. Um, you know, on my first day we went around in a golf cart together, and he wanted to know what I thought about the the course, and I gave him that information. Um, we were flying around because all his golf carts have their off switch for the speed, so I was hanging on for dear life. Um, but yeah, I mean, yeah, my interactions with all sorts of people, because that club in New York is is only about 35, 40 minutes north of Manhattan. So there are a lot of celebrity types there. I met Tom Brady, uh, Mark Warburg, the Clintons. I spent a day with them, which was I you know, I can talk about that. Um, there were there were lots of celebrities there. Um, but yeah, I don't know. It just also I was a bit of a novelty being Australian, and you know, I we share the passion for golf, and that that's sort of where my my mind would go, and you know what I'm dedicated to doing, which is you know, helping them with their biomechanics and their golf swing, and that's what I deemed as my purpose. Uh, and I I I didn't really think about anything else that you know that they're different, or yeah. So that was my take on that. Um, but yeah, the day that I spent with the Clintons the night before, the director of golf called me up and he said, I've cancelled your um your lessons tomorrow. It's um President Clinton's birthday, and he wants you to go around the course and give them tips. And it was so it was it was Clinton and then you know his wife Hillary, who was Secretary of State at the time. So she, you know, she was she was important, uh and and then it was his daughter Chelsea and Chelsea's husband. I think his name's Mark. So, but what comes with that is the Secret Service. So it's it was an absolute spectacle. So, you know, we're right here. The director of golf had said, you know, I arrive at 9 a.m. the Clintons will be ready to go at 10 or something like that. And so you you arrive on property and it doesn't have at all the same feel that it normally did. There's just secret service everywhere. Um, and yeah, they are they are with them once you've been a president, they are with them for life. So they and I I asked Bill, I said, you know, how's how does it feel to have these people with you at all times? And I remember like a wry smile coming across his face and him saying, Well, sometimes it's pretty inconvenient. Um you know, something that he was very accustomed to that you and used to, but I can imagine that um yeah, you you lose your privacy forever.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

Yeah, for sure. So obviously, fast forward a few years, you start having kids, all that sort of stuff, and the psychology degree gets done while you're having kids, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yes, yeah. So I I guess I had done, you know, I was obsessed with the biomechanics, I'd done the teaching, I'd been at some great clubs, that was a great experience. I had I had already done the media, so golf channel and commentary, and and that was a wonderful experience. And that that was the performer in me, and and I loved that side of things. And I guess there is a a natural sort of progression there of you know, playing golf, teaching golf, golf media, and I I wanted more back to this self-actualization thing. Like I thought, what what would be the next step? And it was a big one, and it was the mind, the human mind. You know, what what it's always fascinated me, and I thought it was a good segue. I I knew that um I wouldn't necessarily work entirely in sports psychology starting out, but I knew that that was I had enough interest and experience in performance psychology, sports psychology, just from my own my own life to be interested in the human mind and you know the inner workings and you know the the neurochemistry. And I wanted to understand on a much greater level what what was happening in the brain. And so that was sort of the catalyst, just the interest in the mind. And then I the the sort of the the sliding doors moment again, everything lined up because I was I was then married and we wanted to have three kids. That was always the plan. And I I knew that this journey of becoming a psychologist was a long one, and I thought, I'm not gonna be working a lot, I can probably do both. I can probably have kids and study at the same time. And I did do a little bit of work. I've always written articles for Australian Gulf Digest and I I continued that, but I yeah, I started the journey. Um, I don't think I really at the beginning even knew how long it would be, but I I started full-time study. Uh, it was all available online, which was another thing that lined up because I couldn't go on campus. Uh, I was I was having children. But basically, I started this this journey of three degrees full-time and three babies, and I just never stopped. Even when I gave birth, there would be there would just be sort of this um freak lineup of there would be a week off then. And and it just happened to be that way, where I was I was able to just keep going and keep going and keep going. And so that was in the end, uh just over seven years of full-time study.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

That's um that's amazing. So there's gonna be some uh I guess PGA professionals that are tuning into this, and we've all heard this on the lesson T. You know, I hit it, I hit it great on the range, but I can't do it on the course.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Have you got any answers that we might be able to give back to them?

SPEAKER_01 33:14

I do, I do. So typically, this is not a technical problem, this is not a confidence problem, this is a nervous system problem. So we're we're all wired differently, we all have different nervous systems. You know, some people have really calm nervous systems, other people have more you know alert ones. Um, and there's lots of reasons for that. But essentially, you know, this is going back to I mentioned earlier about um the brain's ability to fire movement automatically. So there's a part of the brain that activates that. And so when somebody is is relaxed, uh, and we've all had that, you know, you're having a practice round with friends or alone, and everything's just, you know, you're in the flow state, everything works beautifully. Um, that's because that part of the brain is firing as it should. So what what happens when things come undone? It is the nervous system essentially hijacking that part of the brain. And so it's it's destabilizing it and it's making um, you know, for it's making room for erratic movements. Uh so you know, suddenly instead of that sort of free-flowing auto, auto-feeling, autopilot, suddenly an involuntary movement might, you know, come into it or um you know, shaking, you know, that so that is a nervous system thing. So the sympathetic nervous system, once it starts getting fired up, it's releasing cortisol, the stress hormone, and it's releasing adrenaline. So that that's it's gonna make you feel, you know, it whether when it when you feel nervous, when you feel really so that that's a a very uncomfortable feeling. So, and then it becomes a little more problematic because this might happen to somebody. Like I've experienced this when um you know you're on the first T and it feel a bit shaky. So that that's you know, that's what I'd call a normal nervous system, sort of, you know, you're starting to care. Um, you know, you do care about the outcome. That's normal. And as you go along, it what I've experienced, it sort of settles down as you start to focus on the process. But for some people, over time, if it keeps happening, keeps happening, keeps happening, the brain registers it as trauma, and so it it looks for it. And so this is I'll try and keep this as simple as possible, but this is because we have a two million-year-old brain that is designed to detect threat. So the problem is that so that there's a part of the brain at the front called the prefrontal cortex. So that part of the brain is you know decision making, um, problem solving, it's concentration. So what happens to that part when the nervous system hijacks it is the amygdala comes on. So the amygdala is at the back, and it's a small part of the brain that is designed to detect threat. So it's it's that way because early mankind had to protect himself, you know, from a saber-toothed tiger. We don't have that anymore, but the brain is fundamentally the same. So the same neural pathways exist. So, you know, it's not detecting a tiger, it's detecting, oh, you know, I I don't, I don't, I get nervous when I play golf. That's a threat to the brain. It's it's entirely psychological and nervous system. You you won't be able to fix this through technique or through confidence building. So that there needs to be uh, you know, I guess uh some psychoeducing about what's going on, and then there are things that you can do to fix it, and and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

How big of an influence can um like nutrition and hydration play on this as well?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Huge, yeah, huge, yeah. So it's sort of like if you don't know the core problem, how can you fix anything? And and this is you know, unfortunately, the mental game is is hard to diagnose. You know, if you you go to a doctor and they do a blood test, you have pathology, you have science, and psychology is scientific to an extent, but it's evidence-based research, it's only clinical trials, or you know, it's not here's here's what your blood test says. It says you have high cortisol levels. Um, but you know, so I guess you can investigate nutrition, you can investigate um, you know, certain parts with pathology, and you will find answers. But a hundred percent nutrition um, you know, it comes into it enormously. You know, I mean, if the first thing you do every day is start your day with a coffee, and I love coffee, don't get me wrong, I this is a bad habit of my own, uh, your cortisol will spike by 10 a.m. Yeah, it's a personal won't, you know, and yeah, so I hate it.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

I mean, we we've known each other a while, and I had some issues a long time ago, and I feel like they're pretty much resolved now, but I still remember a friend saying to me who is a PJ member, yeah, he said to me, uh, how can you expect to feel normal and stable with what you do to your body, i.e., you drink beer, you uh you might have this, you eat pizza, you do and I I've never really uh looked at it like that. And then now I like with my own kids, I try to, I'm gonna use the word force, but I try to make sure that they have a uh high protein, high ish fat at breakfast before they go to school versus uh cereal and toast because um I I I know my brain functions better that way. So would you say a majority of the people that are having say mental health issues, and we're we're obviously diving a little bit differently here from the sports thing, but would you say that some of these people are just uh eating themselves into poor mental health?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

For sure, or drinking, or you know, there's smoking or vaping or there's a whole litany of things it could be. But I I don't think it's as off-center for psychology as as you may think, because it sort of all comes down to a mindset that is pretty simple, it's consistency over time and it's repetition, and so it it you can you can not cure, but you can combat all of those problems with a pretty easy mantra, which is showing up every single day and doing the best you can with your nutrition, um, with your hydration. You know, are you every single day are you being the best golf coach? Are you being the best husband or wife? Are you being the best friend? Are you being the best parent that you can be? So it in essence, it is a daily mindset thing, you know, that this is performance psychology. You know, it's it's you know, you can get into bigger things, you know, frameworks that are, you know, mental imagery or emotional regulation, and you can learn all of these different strategies. But what it really comes down to is good habits over time, and and that will take care of the process and it will unhinge someone from focusing on the uncontrollables, and and that's probably I think what most people where most people go wrong, they they think that they're in control or they can um, you know, they they're thinking about the outcome when actually man is the sum of his experiences. So we are it's happening to us. We're not as in control as we think. We are and we aren't. You know, it's external factors are dictating a lot of what happens. We we don't know what will happen tomorrow. So the problem with that is, you know, yeah, I think relinquishing any concept or any notion of controlling the uncontrollables will cause some form of anxiety. So bringing that back, if we just concentrate on doing our best every single day, that is a processed-based framework. And that that will yield results over time.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

All right, so my next question was what's the biggest mistake golfers make when they're trying to improve their mental game? I'm gonna reframe that question too. Obviously, we know that small daily actionable habits will lead to a long-term success. Do you think people put too short of a time frame on trying to improve whether it's their general mental health or their golfing, I guess, golfing mental game? Do you think they try to rush it too quickly? Like, oh, I've breathed before every shot and I, you know, I still playing poorly. Like there's it's too they're expecting results too quickly.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

100%. Uh, without doubt or question, you have to buy into the long game to get anywhere with psychology. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think what you're referring to is they're sort of doing band-aid approaches. Uh, I do the breathing, it doesn't work. Um, the other really common one is trying to like working on something when something goes wrong. Um, you know, I guess it's it's certain strategies and frameworks that are value-based over time. So, you know, it's it's bigger picture things. It's not, and so that you have to be committed to the process of um yeah doing certain things that will help you over time and not expecting an outcome any sooner, or not even not even being connected to an outcome, being connected to the process. Yeah, so so the the the breathing is is not the breathing or meditation, that's that's quite high level stuff. That's not gonna work if you don't practice it consistently. It is scientifically proven to bring down the sympathetic nervous system. So it does work, but it's not going to work when you're going out to the you know first T for the club championships and you've never practiced it before. So it it's it does come back to you know committing to just a yeah holistic approach over time.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah, okay. I'm gonna ask you a question that wasn't on the list. I apologize. Sometimes when I fly, I get a little bit nervy, right?

unknown 44:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

I don't drink, I don't do anything right. So, but I like to have something to chew. And whether it's a mentos, is that like a distractionary tool? Like, why would I so if I'm getting on a plane, I always make sure I have a packet of mentos in my backpack. Is there any anything behind that that would be and could that carry over to golf for some people?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

100%. So you're talking about um sort of attentional redirect, or what I refer to more often as dual tasking. So remember, I was talking about uh the amygdala going off, the detecting threat part of the brain, the exact same thing. Whenever you feel hyper-aroused, hyper-vigilant, really anxious, that's what's happening in your brain. So, how do you combat that? Well, a great way to do you've got to give the brain another task to do. And so in this instance, you're chewing. It could be anything. Sometimes I tap the roof of my um mouth with my tongue and I count 10 times. Um, so that's dual tasking. You know, there was a study, uh, a Harvard study with tennis players, amateur tennis players, and um, they got them to hit balls in front of a crowd, and they their heart rate was going through the roof. They all felt very nervous. Um, they were, you know, I guess the um they felt anxious. And then the psychologist gave them a line to say as they hit the ball. I don't know what it was, but it was you know, forehand, or I'm hitting this into the, you know, down the line, and it reduced their heart rate significantly. So that's that's dual tasking. Um, so that that's what you're doing with the mentos, and there's probably also if you do it every time, the routine is uh a conditioned strategy for you. So you you know it's almost like a security blanket.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Yeah, 100% it's a security blanket now. Even my wife laughs because we'll be walking and I have to run off and grab mentos before we get on the plane.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

So if it works, it works.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah, well that that's right. Have you noticed any like habits, routines, or thought patterns that you consistently see among like elite performers from any genre?

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Yeah, yeah. They're process-driven, whether they do that naturally um or they've learnt it from somebody. That could be uh modeling, you know, from a parent or a teacher or a psychologist. It's a learnt skill. Um, and so sure, some people might do it innately, um, you know, but yeah, they're not they're not they're they're kind of thinking about um process at all times. So, you know, on the golf course, this would be uh an emphasis on pre-shot, post-shot routines, you know, in any sport, it's about the rituals. Um, so and then I I think also um strong identity outcome, uh sorry, and strong identity anchors outside the sport. So they they know who they are away from golf, you know, and a lot of athletes are, you know, it's it's it's um you know common knowledge that they work hard on this part. So that's the values-based frameworks that psychologists um work with athletes on. Who are you away from the sport? It gives them an ability to detach from you know the pressure of the job or um anxiety if they've got other things going on in their life and you know what what's important to them away from sport or if it's a CEO.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

So yeah, I I notice with I think a lot of them cross over and believe that is their whole identity, though, right? Like good golf. Like, I you know, we all being golfers, you might say to a mate who's a fellow golf pro, how I'm playing terribly. I didn't ask that. That they did they attach how they are to how they're playing.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

100%. And I think that's a a big mistake. And you know, if if anyone listening feels like that's what they do, they they you know need to look at that and work on that because life is so much more than you know a game. And I, you know, I know it's some for some people, like tour players, it's their livelihood. Um, but you know, in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of important things in life, you know, health, family, um, you know, I guess meaningful work no matter what it is. There's lots of things, and it's those anchors that can uh help somebody be a really happy, well-rounded person, no matter what happens, and cope with adversity better.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

So, what would be like someone like myself or other coaches are listening, what would be some of the biggest mistakes that we make, I guess, with the mental side?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah, so I think probably particularly in Australia, too much emphasis on the technical side of the game and not enough emphasis on the mental side of the game. And sure, you know, most teaching pros aren't psychologists, and maybe they don't even know the basics of counseling. But I think even tapping into empathy is really important, like actually putting yourself in your students' shoes and trying to imagine, you know, what they are feeling uh emotionally rather than how did your hands feel at that point all the time. Like obviously, there's a place for technique, but I think that human connection will outweigh technical now from a coach. And we know that is proven to be the case because in psychology the research says that a large portion of success with in therapy is based on the therapeutic alliance. So that means human connection. So, you know, I think where the coaches go wrong in terms of um the mental game, go for it. Don't don't think of yourself as just a technical um you know instructor because you're so much more than that to that to that student. Uh, you know, whether they're a child or an adult, you know, whether they're inexperienced or or not, human beings are wired to want connection. So what do they really want from you to be heard, validated, and feel like you care? You know, and a lot of that comes down to communication skills, and that's all part of psychology. You know, there's I think it's Tony Robbins that says there is no such thing as a business problem. Every problem is psychology. And I I would I would say that that's pretty much relevant in teaching golf as well, you know, it to some extent. Of course, you know, golf is a highly technical game. And you know, I I think about one technical um trigger when I go out and play. Um, you know, it it does differ. I wish it didn't, but you know, on any given day, I'm thinking about one thing, and then I'm thinking about you know the target and my imagery. Um, so I don't think you can escape that entirely. And I'm not saying to go out there and be, you know, just focused on, you know, your mood or the way you feel, but in terms of teaching, it should encompass an element of counseling and empathy and and feeling like you are right in there with the client, with you know, with the student. Um, that would be my advice. I don't think you have to be, you know, a psychologist to do it. I think you can um immerse yourself in this, there's so much material out there podcasts, articles, you know, GPT, Claude, use whatever you like to find the information. Uh, you don't have to do eight years of study, but um, you know, yeah, I I think that's that's probably Australian coaches are very fixated on technique. Americans are not.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

I love the way Americans play, just you know, yeah, yeah, they generally don't have the great swings, but they know how to lower their scores, at least at the higher end. So, how is working with tour players different from club golfers?

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Well, on one level, it's not, you know, and from my experience so far, uh, you know, it's it it's so individual. So, you know, I I I can work with I've I've you know I've got a few tour tour players that I'm working with. It's confidential, so I can't mention their names, but you know, it it can get very clinical, you know. Um I've got professional ballet dancers, swimmers, golfers, um, athletes, uh and and they could show up with a somebody could show up with an eating disorder. I uh, you know, you don't necessarily go down the performance psychology line, but it's a very individual thing. Um you know, there are certain things, you know, tour players or or you know, professional athletes, they are they come equipped with some incredible skill, and and that does take them a long way. So, you know, they tend to feel very comfortable in their in their domain. So it'll be it won't necessarily be performance, it might be something clinical like anxiety, depression, eating disorders, you know, um, post-traumatic stress disorder. You don't know what's happened to someone. A lot happens to an individual over the course of somebody's life. Yeah, and so it's a journey with that person, no matter what they level they're at. And so I come with that approach. Like I you meet them where they are. Um, and so it's you know, it's there's some diagnostic tools you can use, um, but at the end of the day, you're on a journey with them, and I just want to feel I want them to feel my intention, um, and I want them to feel supported. And then it's it's really on me to figure out what's going on with them.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

But yeah, tour players, amateurs, it it sort of blends into all the same thing. So you you don't know what's gonna come up.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Yeah. You've been involved in the AI world.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Should coaches be worried if AI is gonna replace them?

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Not at all. So, I mean, I saw that clip with um Bryson DeChampeau saying that he he after, I think it was after a round, he went back and um you know spent some time with AI looking at his swing. Unquestionably, AI is amazing at analysing golf swings. Uh, I don't know if you've looked at it yourself, but it's it's pretty good. Uh you can upload videos, you can upload stills, and it will analyze, it's scanned the internet 20 times over. So it's it's very, it's it's very advanced at looking at technical things. But again, you've got you've got two things the slippery slope of being obsessed with technique. Um, mind you, I have been down that path with AI and and Claude will tell me that I've had enough today.

SPEAKER_02 55:55

So really?

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yes, yes, well. Um, so it's it's um it knows it's ethical and it it it knows when you've you've had enough. So it's it's safe, but um again, the human connection, it's not a human, and there's no relationship with it. There is on a superficial level, but you can't look AI in the eyes and say, I'm really struggling with my golf game or with my mental health or with my relationships, it's never going to replace a human being, and especially, you know, humans that have empathy, communication, skip good communication skills, um, and you know, the intention to help people, that altruistic element of I am here to help you. And and that's in essence meaningful work. So I don't think AI will ever replace PGA coaches.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah, okay. And what do you think the future looks like for, I guess, mental performance coaching in golf?

SPEAKER_01 56:55

I think that uh over the next 10 years it will be heavily embraced by everyone. It's not going away. We can't put it back in the box. Um, I don't I remember when the internet came about and everyone went, oh, this is terrible, this is frightening. And there are terror, there are bad aspects. There's you know the dark web, there's all sorts of things that are frightening about the internet. And the same with AI. There are real fears, real factors that are potentially dangerous. Um, but the reality is it's not going anywhere. It it serves a great purpose, it is you know accessible, affordable. Um, you know, it it's it increases productivity no matter what you're doing. Um, so it's powerful. Uh, and that that's unquestionable. I mean, it's a booming, booming industry. Um, the market has spoken, everybody wants it. So I think that it will be heavily embraced by everyone, and you will be left behind if you don't embrace it. And by embrace, I mean use it to your advantage in in the best way that you can. So, a golf, if you're a PGA teaching professional, use it. Use it with your clients. Don't don't say that you don't use it. Be honest and and open and forward about using it. Use it as a tool together. Make it make it something that can progress you and your client. But remember that it's not not to be feared or you know, you don't have to sort of be under the illusion or give the student the illusion that you don't use it and it's all coming from you, because your power is human connection.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

Yeah. I I like what you're saying there because I've started like you know, I think there's a lot of expectation levels with players, they'll hit a shot, and especially uh inside a simulator or hitting on a monitor, they hit a shot and it turns a little left or a little right and they look a little upset. And I'm like, hang on a minute, if we were hitting to a green that's 15 feet left and we're hitting at 150, that's actually world class, and they look at you a bit funny. So I'll go to Chat GPT and I'll say, hey, 150 metres, you know, what would the PGA tour um uh benchmark be here or you know, average or whatever? And then I just turn around and I show them the results and it and it blows their mind. I I am all for it. Uh there's a tea time question that I had recently. I had a I'm running a junior event and I had to try to merge a whole bunch so that they could all finish at a similar time. And I just gave it my concepts, and within 30 seconds it said, tee those kids off at this time, tee these kids off at that time, and everyone will be finished within you know an hour of each other. And I was like, wow, that's just phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

It's so powerful, it's information, information is power. Um, you know, it it's helpful and it's it's not going anywhere. So, you know, I say use it. I'm a proponent of it. Yeah, it will change the world in many ways, particularly education. You know, the our kids' generation is going to have a very different experience to us. I mean, it's powerful, it can do everything. So that we won't, but we won't really see the impact of that until you know another 10 years or so. So we we can expect the world to be a very different place in 10 years, but for now, you know, I use it to your advantage um and and just hone in on that human connection piece.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Yeah. Annabelle, thank you for coming on and having a chat. If people want to say follow you on socials or whatever, just to try to see some more of the stuff that you do, how can they do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Sure. Well, thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Uh, so my my website is Annabelrollypsychology.com. So if anyone wants to connect with me, just jump on that website. Uh, I haven't haven't changed my socials in a long time. I'm not really putting that much out there, but I'm soon to change that. I want to start, you know, imparting some information so that I can help as many people as possible. That's sort of my uh ambition. So uh yeah, I'm Annabelle Raleigh on Instagram, and and that's about it. I'm yet to get to TikTok or anything else. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Thank you so much for taking the time to come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Pleasure. Thanks, Brent.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the PJ Professional Podcast, the go-to source for all professionals like you. We hope you enjoyed the journey through the stories that shape our association. Remember, the PJ Professional Podcast is made by members, for members, and we want to hear from you. Connect with us on the PJ Member community, share your thoughts, and let us know who you want to hear from in the future.