SURFACE DRIVES, DUCKS & DATA!! | Ep089 | Off The Clock with B Scott

Fewer ducks. Warmer winters. Skinnier water. We brought in Josh Bradley of SeeLite to connect the dots from rig choices to resource management—and to show how small details on your motor and big decisions on the landscape shape your season.

First, we get tactical. Josh breaks down his Havoc setup, why a nine and a half gallon bow tank keeps the hull flat in shallow runs, and how Mud Buddy’s 5400 won him over after years with GatorTail. We compare trim geometry that actually lifts a skeg above the transom, the new ergonomic tiller with momentary forward for safer micro-moves around spreads, and a quiet exhaust that keeps mid-range punch without the roar. Stainless skegs, belt support, gearing options, and maintenance rituals round out a no-hype guide to making a surface drive work in real flooded timber, sand, and river systems.

Then we zoom out to the tough stuff. Duck numbers hinge on weather up north, water and invertebrates down south, and how we time floods across sanctuaries and WMAs. We talk transparency with Arkansas Game and Fish: publish the data, align boards and gates with clear plans, and spread hunters through access models that increase the odds of a good hunt. The timber debate gets honest—when to cut, how long recovery takes, and why roots still breathe in winter. Food becomes the pivot point: moist-soil units, rice, and the corn question. If private and northern practices hold birds, can public land add smart, marked food zones and adjacent hunting to keep Arkansas’ flooded timber relevant without bending the rules?

What emerges is a blueprint: better ergonomics and torque on the stern, predictable water and targeted food on the landscape, and open data that lets the public see progress. It’s not about inside baseball or pointing fingers—it’s about making choices that bring birds back to the woods and keep new hunters coming back next year.

If this conversation helps you rethink your rig or your plan, tap follow, share it with a hunting partner, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. Your feedback helps push the conversation—and the conservation—forward.

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Transcript

Kickoff, Guest Intro, Season Check

SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's five o'clock, and you're off the cargo beat Scott. Now, today we have with us Josh Bradley from Sea Light, and I got Tim Scott to my right. And today we're going to talk about Mud Buddies, Gatortail, surface drives in general what we like or we don't like about them and the differences between. Also, guys, we're going to touch base on the game of fish stuff. All right, Josh has some really good ideas, really knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of stuff. So he's going to tell us his opinion on this, and we're going to talk with it back and forth. It's going to be a good time. It's a good conversation. But before we do, make sure you leave a like, subscribe, and hit the bell for notifications. Josh, I'm glad you can make it today. I hope the travel wasn't too bad for you, but I know we're eager to talk to you. How long did it take you to get here? I mean, about two hours.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

It's not bad.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

No. Wrestleville ain't too far.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

No. I'm used to that two-hour drive. Yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

So how was your duck season this year, man? Did y'all kill him? I would say it was a decent season. I'm not going to complain too much, but I know that it was a lot less than years past. You know, I I I treat hunting a little bit differently more than most. I just enjoy being out there with my friends.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Right.

Fewer Ducks: Weather And Food

SPEAKER_02 1:09

You know, the killing part, I'm past that. But I do feel like the number of ducks that we saw was significantly less than years past. And it just keeps on going down. Why do you think that is? Um there's a multitude of reasons. I don't think it's just one solid answer, but I do think that um weather plays a big part of it. Weather up north plays a big part of it, and then food sources. Yeah. You know, and food sources up north or food sources down here. Down here? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Like a lack of, maybe?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yes. I would say a lack of and just areas adjacent to them, uh to the areas where like you would have refuges or wildlife management areas for them that would be like a a refuge or a haven for them. You know, right, right, right. So a lot of our sanctuaries that we have on the federal ground, you know, they didn't ever really get significant rain to hold the ducks. And then the sanctuaries that did have um the water may not have necessarily had food or invertebrates on it.

Boat Setup And Weight Balance

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Right. So dealing with a lot of you know low water stuff. What what rig are you running? Did you run this past season?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Uh I use uh it's a Havocbo. It's a 753, it's a MSTCAS. And it's an adventure series Tim made it. Old school, baby. Yeah, and man, I just love it. It's hard to get away from it. I built a tank up front.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Did a little bit of math. You know, I run a lot of shallow ground and um found the the right size tank to build to put up front so that that thing really rides pretty flat. Flatter than most, but that's what I want.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

What uh uh what size tank do you put up front? It's actually nine and a half gallons. You you did the math on that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

I guarantee you you did, man. Knowing Josh, you know, you know he's in there crunching a number, and he's like, All right, I need exactly this. That's why I love this guy, man. I mean, I mean, he's mathematically gonna prove you around.

GatorTail To Mud Buddy: Why Switch

SPEAKER_02 2:52

That's right. What what motor do you have on the back of it? Um I I've had on that boat in particular, since I've had it a few seasons, I had a gator tail. Um, it was just uh a um the GTR, and then now I've got that mud buddy.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah, gator tail built a good motor.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Yep. And now I've got the um 5400 Mud Buddy. How'd you like that? I love it.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Really? I love it. What's the big difference between the two, you think?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Uh I would say that in years past looking at Mud Buddy, I had um the original one with the with the tiller that was long, and I mean it was just really just bent conduit or or small um wall thickness tubing, and it will hurt you, it hurt your hip. And then I went to uh Sport H before Boss went just strictly boss. I had a Sport H. I really like that tiller handle, and the gear drive system was nice, it was just really loud and slow. And then um they went out of business. I went to Gatortail, and uh the Gator Tail was fine. There's some nuances there, but the the Mud Buddy, I there's just several things about it that I do like.

Trim Systems, Skeg Height, And Lock

SPEAKER_01 3:54

All right, guys, we just hit over 10,000 subscribers on YouTube. Guys, we appreciate each and every one of you guys and everybody that's watching this thing. Now, let me tell you, it shows that 75% of you guys are watching and aren't subscribed. So it helps us out a lot. If you subscribe, hit the bell for notifications and share it to your friends because guys, you could be missing out on things that you might enjoy to watch. Now, let's get right back into it. Well, let's talk about that. What uh what all right? So you pretty much ran them all, it seems like. So, what about the Mud Buddy that you like now? Why is that? Like, what you're talking about your 5400, right, B Scott?

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Yeah, the 5400, the new one.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah.

New Tiller Ergonomics And Safety

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Um, I would say that they the trim system, if you're comparing them, you know, uh uh gator tail, and I do like the gator tail, but the gator tail is a reverse pivot. So the trim system's up pretty much underneath the base of the motor. And then when you when you trim up, it's actually pulling in that actuator. So depending on how you have it set up, you really never get the skeg above the bottom of the transom. And that's a problem if you're hunting hard bottoms, not so much in the marsh. Right, right. So I had to I modified mine to where I could get it up and actually trim it above the bottom of the boat. Uh Mud Buddy, it is with the new 5400 and the new tiller, you can trim up you know as high as you want almost until you get to the locking function.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Right, right. A locking function is really nice. It is too transport. Yeah. Um, so I mean, what about the new tiller handle? It's adjustable, it has lights on it. I mean, it has a lot of different features. Uh, it's a much needed upgrade from Mudbuddy.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah, I mean, you look in the past, anything negative people said about Mud Buddy, you're usually directed at the tiller handle. It was, it was.

Stainless Skeg, Hard Bottoms, Maintenance

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I would say that the tailor handle now, you know, I I don't have the the Timber King version, but I did order the handle guard that comes on the Timber King. So my lower has got that 32-inch lower instead of like the 37-inch lower. Which honestly, the speed aspect of that is kind of why I went with the longer one. I didn't, you know, I even with the 32-inch uh lower unit, I don't have an issue turning in tight timber. Like not one. Um but the tiller handle itself, man, the the trim switch is really close to where you're normally operating right. You know, that was an advantage. And then um the momentary forward that mud buddy has.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Talking about the button butt uh the uh talking about the bump bump switch, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yes, that that is imperative for like um that is nice trailering, anything like that where you're just trying to move forward. Say you come off pad, you're going through somebody's spread that's set up in the river, man. You can just bump forward through their stuff slowly. If you're moving around, one of the big things, especially when you're hunting shallow, you know, as you take off or you leave those areas, you know, I'm always very cautious about who's walking around because those those props, I mean, they're they'll hurt you. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So being able to to momentary through things like that and not just put it straight in gear and have it go, you know, that was even even like decoys or anything. Oh, yeah, it's nice for all that. Absolutely, especially if you're hunting a river system, you can just momentary forward while you're in current and keep yourself stationary while you place decoys, right?

5400 Performance And Quiet Power

SPEAKER_00 7:01

So right, yeah. It all I mean, all the features. I I'm a feature guy. When I buy something, I look at all the features and how it's gonna benefit me. And you know, uh the that's how I pick a product, you know. Right. So I mean, it sounds like to me, you really look at every little feature. Oh, yeah, yeah. Every little feature. I mean, I mean, I I think you kind of get off on it. You know, like, yeah, this is exciting. We don't love features, you know, like like he mentioned about the you know, the trim button being close to his hand. I mean, he pays attention to every little detail, you know. Um, you know, one thing I like about the mud buddy that I've always liked about a mud buddy is the low profile of the motor. Oh, yeah. I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Yeah, it it definitely is. I would say um I I've had some issues in the past when you're starting to go under like low airspace conditions where you're going under bridges or um, say footbridge or something, and actually had to push down on the boat to get it underneath it. And and the profile difference between the two is is fairly substantial. In fact, it feels like you're running a much smaller motor when you're running a mud buddy. And I I had gone on my my um gitter tail and actually put a turbo on it, so it it increased that height, you know, over the past season. And um it didn't really bother me too much, but I do like being able to look back and see over the motor, which with the mud buddy you can do.

Options, Gearing, And Use Cases

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Right, right, right. Is there anything else about the Bud Buddy uh 5400 that just really stands out?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

I mean, I think the stainless steel skeg, you know, I'm pretty hard on them when you're running through those hard bottoms or anything with sandy bottoms. You're gonna tear up the aluminum ones.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

And of course, this is a uh flooded timber situation, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, so I would say a a flooded timber situation, but you've got to get there through interconnecting river systems.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

And some of those systems may be sandy bottom, right? You know, so you've got to cut across areas that may be really low. And so that can eat up a skeg over time and also eat up a prop. You know, you may just get a few hunts out of one prop. How many props do you go through a year? I mean, I would say at least one, maybe two.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah.

unknown 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

So you run your equipment pretty hard.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. But I also do a lot of maintenance. You know, I'm checking valve lash every two hours and I'm changing the work. Really?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

At least weekly.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, you're that guy.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Absolutely. I can see that, dude. I can see that 100%. Without a doubt, I can see that.

Warranty, Belts, And Support

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, absolutely. That's what's so special about Josh. Yeah. Absolutely. That's why I want him to wire my boat up, you know. You know he's picked up doing an immaculate job when it comes to that. But it's an icon to him, you know. That's right. But uh, yeah, I mean, all this is great information, you know. And the 5400, I don't know, you know, it just runs good. I mean, uh the first the first one time we ran one was up in Nashville. It was. And you know, uh, it just runs good, it holds a nose, it just fits really good with the havoc, you know. Um, is there anything else about the 5400 that just really stands out other than what you mentioned?

Josh’s Engineering Mindset

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Um, I think 5400 just out of the box, you know, it it it is a a worked special motor. You know what I mean? It's got some features to it that most stock motors are not gonna have. So you don't necessarily see it on the top end. It's not like you're gonna strap a 5400 to your boat and go 10 miles an hour. Right, right, right. But that mid-range is incredible. Getting up on pad with a load, you know, I ran out of the box, I had like half an hour on it, wasn't broken in yet. And I took um two other people, a dog, decoys, and camera gear, all of our gear and and guns, and got up on pad, no issues, had no issues, and still never ran it wide open. I was running probably three-quarter throttle running 31 miles an hour with that load.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

And not a river system, just uh, you know, stagnant water.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

You know what's kind of crazy though? You go to the Mud Buddy's website, it doesn't state that what a 5400 is, like horsepower. Yeah. If you go to other motors, it tells you how big it is. I mean, the horsepower rating, you know, you know what it actually puts out. What is the 5400? Do you do you know?

Shift To Game And Fish Transparency

SPEAKER_02 10:54

To be honest, I I really don't. I don't know that anybody's dynoed it yet. They don't they don't publicize what the horsepower is, but when you look at what's done, when you have um different internals, and when I say internals, you've got different head system, you've got different valve system, and you have a cam. You know, and and the new um Mud Buddies come with that silent cue. And I'll tell you, man, I I thought I would see a big gain by taking out the silencer in it just to see. So I took it out, tested it, and it definitely got louder. But the improvement improvements on the gains were non-existent, so I put it back in. Now I've got a really quiet motor that's got a lot of mid-range bunch.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Wow, that's pretty impressive that Mud Buddies doing that, you know. But uh yeah, I I was always just curious. I went to their website, I just couldn't tell where it is. And you know, I've I've I've I've contacted Glenn, you know, and he's he you know, he's gave me some numbers, but I just don't know. I I don't know if somebody's ever dynowed one to actually see what the worth buy rating is. But overall, though, it's a great motor. It's performing great. People love it. The new tealer handle is a a big hit, you know, it's a big improvement.

Habitat, Pressure, And Water Levels

SPEAKER_01 11:57

I would say for Mud Buddy across the board, dude, that was the best improvement they could have just came out with right there.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

And I I I think it's it's very important to like recognize that it's also like an Amherdexra style motor. Yeah, it is. With the ability to swing that tiller either way, oh yeah, you could sit there if you're a left-hand side driver, which I know a few people that are, you just have to flip the actual throttle handle and you've got a motor that you can use sitting on the point.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

I didn't think about that. Yeah, no, I had nobody's brought that up to me either. Did you uh did you adjust your tiller handle? Because I know you can move it. Yes. Did you adjust yours? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Yeah, I I've started out with it in the center, and then when you go to make a left-hand turn, yeah, that thing gets into you. Right. So I put it more toward what would be the left side.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

And um, so it's not running straight down the boat parallel to the gunnel. It's kind of cocked over to the left, and it it it never got into me after that. What about the light on the bottom? Do you use the light? I mean, I would say based on the lights that we have in our boats, like the one that I have in my boat.

Spreading Hunters With Access Programs

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Well, of course your bus lit up. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

The the I did use it um while trying to get into the lower hatch. I did turn it on a few times.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

No kidding. Yep, because it's right above it. I'll be dang. So it isn't actually a usable feature. I didn't know if it was just for I don't know. Yeah, like let's put a gadget here, you know. I didn't know what it was really for. I thought it was cool, but I didn't know. So it so so you the light is handy.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Okay, definitely. I got you. I got you. Well, that's pretty I mean that's good to know. So do you want to talk about some of the specs on the spreadsheet? Uh do you guys got the spreadsheet here? Yeah, you know, a little bit of comparison um between the two motors. I mean, they're both great motors. You know. They are. All all of our dealers sell both, you know. Uh but the uh I see uh, you know, you know, in the marketplace and what I'm hearing from people, the the 54 is definitely gaining some gaining gain gaining ground.

Timber Cutting: Rationale And Concerns

SPEAKER_01 13:50

I mean um you know the tiller handle anybody that's driven it, you know, anybody's driven it, put their hands on it, the way it handles, I mean, it's comfortable. Especially with the adjustable tiller handle, it's comfortable. And for the power you have on the low end and the mid, you know, the mid, like you're talking about, when you're loaded down like that, you know how hard it can be sometimes the low water to get on, you know, get on pad and get out of there. Oh yeah. I mean, that's a big deal. How important is the optional motor oil cooling protection?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

I think it's pretty important. Why is it why do you think it's important? Because if you're running through tight timber and you're starting to go through buck brush and things like that, man, you can you can do some damage to your oil cooling lines. There's a sending unit just on the back side on the starboard side that you can rip off. That's all covered. And then in the Timber King version, the actual oil cooler itself is fully encapsulated and has cooling fins that direct air to it. So it's pretty handy. Is that something you pay attention to when you swap motors? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I like the features like that. Anything that's gonna protect me from having to work on it while I'm out there using it is something that I appreciate on the front end. Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

That's something he's interested in. I understand. I understand. Um, so uh the all right, the the lifetime, all right, Gatortail offers a lifetime warranty on the belt.

Flood Timing, Tree Health, Data Gaps

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Yep, and they stand behind that. I'll say that 100%. And the the over the lifetime of the motor, I experienced stretch. So you can call up Gatortail and they'll direct you through on how to address it. And you're gonna end up shimming your motor up to take that tension out of it. But over, I mean, their customer service is pretty spot on, so I can't knock them for that. The um the the belt is actually much bigger, you know. When you're talking about wider, you mean? Yeah, it's probably three inches. I've had it out a few times, but it's probably three inches, um, maybe four inches um in there. And it's really hard to get onto that lower unit whenever you take it out to service it.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

So they got a really bang up job on customer service, and they got a bang up job on their belts.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Yep.

Food In Woods, MSUs, And Corn Debate

SPEAKER_00 15:50

You know, um you know, I've actually heard that before. I mean, Kyle does a really great job. Yeah, I've heard it before too. Uh customer service and that kind of thing, you know. And we sell, I mean, our dealers sell a lot of gators. There is a lot of them out there. You know, they're definitely getting the job done. You know, it just as the market progresses and as as people push the market and industry, uh things do get better. And it to me, it seems like based off this spreadsheet, uh, I mean, Mud Buddy's covering a lot of areas that Gatortail's not covering, but again, you know, uh both motors are great. Um overall, if you you know, overall um they're both of the motors are getting the job done, right? We're not knocking either or.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

No, for sure. I it would and to me, just looking at this spreadsheet and looking at you know what Mud Buddy and Gatortail has here, it really just shows uh it shows that Mud Buddy really focuses on options. Flexibility.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

The one thing I see on the spreadsheet is optional uh pinion and gearing. Why is that a big deal?

Public vs Private Practices And Policy

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Um you can adjust, you know, uh top end speed and bottom end speed. Do you think most people are actually doing that though? No. The price to do it, the price to do it, and then especially since when you change the upper, you have to change the whole clutch. Uh, that is not something you're gonna see. But the lower end gear, I could see people changing.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Right. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Like I fully plan on playing around with it.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

I could definitely see somebody like you doing that, but the everyday common person probably wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I don't see the everyday guy doing it.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

No, I would I wouldn't see that, you know. Of course, what do you do for a living? I mean, explain to everybody what you do for a living.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Uh I work at um, well, first of all, I won't see light, uh, started it in 2011, and then since um man, about 18 years now, I worked at the nuclear plant. So I I was started out as a reactor operator and then went to um the engineering fix-it now team. I'm a degree engineer, and then went to management for a while, did project management for over the turbines and generators, and now I work in training.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Right.

Redlined Seed Event And Enforcement

SPEAKER_02 17:51

So I I enjoy the training. We decided we wanted to have a kid kind of late in life, and um allowing, you know, the our management team allowed me to go and it really gave me some free time to be a part of my you know daughter's life.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

And so I greatly appreciate that. And so as a response, I still stay there. Right. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

You're a very loyal person.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Oh, yeah. I I enjoy um that work. Right. I don't necessarily have to be there, but I enjoy it so much so that I'm gonna continue to be a part of it. And my wife, you know, she worked there about 20 years, and she just recently, within the past couple years, she went to enterprise. So she works for Entergy too. We both work for a utility company in the state of Arkansas.

Protecting Arkansas’ Timber Legacy

SPEAKER_00 18:31

I got you. I got you. I I could definitely tell you you love it, you know, and you and and you love numbers and you love spreadsheets and and you love comparing product, you know, and seeing who's who's pushing the industry. I get that. So I mean, so you you got the 5400, you love you know, you love your mud buddy, there's a lot of features. We could all obviously see, you know, the the gain in that, but you know, going back to duck hunting, but your passion, you love the duck hunt, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, and and you know, the the you know, we're let's talk about the Arkansas Game and Fish, and it's been a hot subject here lately, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

And uh what do you what what do you see in Arkansas Game and Fish? What do you what would you like to see change?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

I'd just like to see more communications. I want to see a little bit more transparency, you know, throughout their regulation and the decisions that they make that affect hunters.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

And why is that important to you?

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Um because we're all a part of it. It's one big family, whether you're a private hunter or a public hunter. That's right. And most people do a little bit of both now. You know, I'm I'm getting older, so I'll be honest. There are days, especially on a weekend, where I choose, hey, I'm gonna go hunt private today. Not because I think the ducks are gonna be there, but because I just don't want to deal with some of the frustrations. What is the frustrations you're seeing? Um, I I just I feel like the infrastructure's not been maintained in a manner that would be suitable for ducks to use.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Right. So you're talking, you're talking as in like habitat.

Closing Reflections And Thanks

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yes, habitat, um, just overall hunting areas, things like that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

What about the pressure you're seeing out there?

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Um I'll be honest. As far as pressure goes, as long as the other people are respectful. Right. Right, part of that is starting with us. So I just everybody out there, the the pressure part is on us, right? We all have the ability to be courteous, good sportsmen, and stewards of the woods. But um I will say that in the past we've had some of that where that was of issue. This year I didn't really have anybody that ran up on us or got too close that didn't respect us. Right. We respect them, they're working ducks. We don't, you know, I don't even call it their swing ducks. If they got ducks on the trees, I'm gonna let them see if they can finish them.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Now, if they don't, then we're gonna spare a game.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Then we're gonna try and stick them. Yeah, it's fair game at that point. Yeah, that's right. Then we're gonna try and stick them. And um, I feel like it works better that way. Rather than comp calling against each other, let them work.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Well, you you know, like a lot of people, I I've heard from a lot of people the pressures, pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure. And a lot of it comes from just not a lot of water. Oh, I mean, if you don't got a lot of water, pressure is gonna be where the water is, and that's instantly gonna make it worse.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Absolutely. I would say that the lack of rain, that's not due to the game of fish, right? They can't control the mother nature and the weather. And not having a cold spell up north until January, you know, that's always the case kind of, you know, as of the past five years, we've had fairly mild winters. So that that is a big player. But the other side of it is what is the other side? I think that um if you know what your license sales are gonna be, and I know that we've got timber plans that we're trying to manage and we've had them for several years on the books now, and you can see, you know, they could tell you what the improvements are. I I have my own formed opinion about it, but I think that you have to kind of bind flood levels in zones where you can control it with structures based on the number of license sales. They have to equate to each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I agree a hundred percent. I agree 100%. I mean, that makes sense for sure. So do you think they're overselling and underdelivering based off of the weather conditions, the rain, or whatever you want to call it? It doesn't matter. Do you do you think that it starts with uh license sales?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

That's a tough question. I don't want to say that I don't want to see out-of-state hunters ever. I don't I don't believe that. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to and and I get that. I understand that people say, hey, we eliminate out-of-staters, then it's just us in-staters and we got it all to ourselves. I don't ever want to say that because the out-of-state folks have put us where we are. I have to I have to keep that.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

100%. I mean, I agree. I agree 100%. But there is a there is a fine line of controlling the situation than letting it get out of control, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yep. I definitely think that um if we based flood elevations and flood zones on number of licensed sales, everybody would be better. If we could spread people out, people would be happier.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I mean, I agree. And it also it it also uh you know, we went to an outfitter um I don't know, a couple years ago. I killed a deer, I killed a good deer up there in Missouri. We were going back for turkey season, and uh when I called the guy, I was like, like, hey, we want the first week, we want the whole week, and we want to bring all of our people up there. Right. But we didn't get the first week, we got the second week or something like that. I don't know what it was. Yeah, I don't remember the deal. Yeah, but they were posting all these turkeys being killed, you know, and I'm like, and he still wanted us to come because he wanted our money, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to me, it was like it was a percentage of the turkey kill. Right. Like if I'm gonna bring 10 people to an outfitter, I want a 50% chance, maybe that's what we're paying for. Right. Um you know, I feel like you know, even duck hunting on public land, they have the ability to increase the percentage of a good time.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Of an experience.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

To some degree, for sure. And there's some things you can't control with nature, like you said, water, rain, all that, all that such. But to some degree, there has to be a way to help.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

There has to be a way to increase the percentage of a of an experience of Arc Solfload attempts. Right. You know, that's my biggest thing is don't oversell and underdeliver. I mean, mean, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I think that um they've tried in the years past with uh the W Rice or Rice program, that is awesome. That's a great idea. And you know, like Kansas, for instance, I hunt a lot in Kansas. That's why I'm not against out of state hunters because I do the same thing. I go out of state. That's right. And I agree, I agree a hundred percent. And when y'all get ready to go to the beach, you're gonna go out of state. But why are you going out of state though? I'm going out of state because I feel like my chances of seeing a different style of turkey. For me, I like to turkey hunt in Kansas, but um, seeing a different style, a different breed of turkey is something neat. I just like to see turkeys, you know, to watch the show is just incredible. There's a lot of ducks in Kansas too, though. Oh, yeah. That's another thing, and I was gonna comment on that. Is like Kansas has they call it weehaw, right? But it's like walk-in hunter access areas. Oh, yeah. Those are similar to what like W Rice would be, except W Rice is just you're gonna have a a field, say 50 to 100 acres, and you're gonna have a four-man pit because that's what they allow them, or it could be a flare square where it's like sit above ground. But um, you're only gonna get four people in that. And it it would be really nice if you could see some of these areas that were like some of the landlocked W mace where they got access. I don't want to necessarily hunt on other people's ground in the timber, but there are several tracts of land that are landlocked that are only you know farm accessible, and there's several of them, and those would be nice to have access to. We've already got the infrastructure, the state already owns them, we just can't get into them.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

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SPEAKER_02 26:09

Having easements, working with those would help spread people out, and then those of the farmers that did have the infrastructure to support it that did not hunt, they did not mind, you know, to be paid a certain fee. Right. To allow to lease it so that it'd be for the public. Yeah, that's right. And then have those be, I don't want to say necessarily draws, but just like in Kansas where you do the hunter check-in, if you got too many people checked in, then you just can't check in, you don't go. That's right. That's the way that it goes.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

And um, they may or may not have ducks on them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Um I mean, but that's how they control the the amount of people coming.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

You can definitely alter the numbers that way.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, and and and you know, I was talking, you know, um, you know, it goes back to a customer that called me. What really got me fired up about all this was a customer called me coming in from Alabama, wanting to kill some ducks, and he called me and said, Hey man, there's just no ducks here, water stinks, whatever. Just a bad experience for us. You know, I felt bad for those people because you know hunting Arkansas Flood Timber was on their bucket list, you know, and it's just like, man, they got a really bad experience. They got a bad taste of it. You know, could it be less hunters in the area could have increased our chances of killing a duck? I I just think there's there's things that need to be changed about the way we do things to give somebody a better experience.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

And a lot of it too. And I don't necessarily think that maybe they're necessarily doing a bad job. I think that maybe if communication was better, like you said earlier, transparency, if we knew more about what they're doing and why, it would make a lot more sense to a lot more people. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

I'm about to bring up a subject that's really a sore subject for everybody is cutting the timber.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Why do you think they're cutting the timber, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 27:52

I think multitude of reasons. I know what we've been told. What we were told is that they're cutting timber, just some of it needs to go, some of it's starting to become unhealthy, some of it is um just overpopulated. But the ultimate goal would be to build habitat, open the canopy up, have buck brush grow on the floor, or just brush, and then you can have deer and other animals bed down into it. It's not just all about the ducks to them. And I get that. And and that's why I say for us, it's not just all about killing. As a true sportsman, you should be thinking, how can I support the duck population? And the answer for them would be give them a place of refuge, right? Not maybe, maybe you have places that you can't hunt that have food. You look at Kansas, I'll go back to Kansas because they're great. Kansas has several areas that are just planted, unharvested, and then allowed to flood. Right. So those ducks get in there, and I I saw it firsthand. It was post-season. I was up there turkey hunting, and I'm walking through the woods, and I come out in a little clearing, and I got up like probably a thousand teal. I had not heard or seen a duck all day, but I walked under the edge of a cornfield that had some just sheet water from a recent rain, and it was just loaded. Loaded. And I walk over there just to see you, man, there's corn all over the place, you know, and we don't necessarily do that anymore. And I can give you an example. Um, I'm from the River Valley, right? We have the River Valley Flyway, that area that's kind of runs between Fort Smith, which is like Oklahoma, and the Mississippi Flyway. And right there, you know, right around Russellville area, you've got Arkansas River, makes a big bend right there by the Dardanill Dam. Just south of it, or just downstream of it, you got a big refuge, Hollow Bend Refuge. It's it's federal ground. Great place to deer hunt. Used to be an amazing place to go watch ducks. You could drive nearly the entire thing and see hundreds of thousands of ducks. And what they did was they would have areas that were essentially just impoundments that would have rice, corn, beans, not harvested. You know, there would be a portion that was harvested, and then they left some for food, so you could drive through and see every species of duck that you wanted to see. It was a great place to go and just bird watch. A lot of people did. Now that's not done anymore. They still have crops. Wow. I don't know. They still have crops, but a lot of the areas that they used to have flooded are now just trees growing in them. They're not managed the same way. Just across the river, uh, you know, as a like an 18-year-old person, I went down there's been a long time ago, and used to launch a 1436 boat with a 9-9 into this little WMA. It's probably three, four hundred acres, and it was all just standard, perfect green floated timber. You may see one other group, maybe. Most of the time I didn't see anybody. But in the morning, those ducks would get off that refuge, get up, fly right over. You could stick big groups of ducks. Really fun place. Now, completely devastated. Windroad, they just pushed it all over into big piles. And I have no idea. They said that it was all dying at the time. And you look at But it didn't die in the past.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

What caused it to die?

SPEAKER_02 31:06

I don't know. I don't want to step on anybody's toes that was involved with that project because I know that there was probably a basis behind it.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

But the trees that I used to stand by, they didn't have any issues with them. They're no longer standing. Right. And then just on the other side of the river, we used to have some amazing hunts. Man, so good, so good that um I actually bought a piece of that property. And I bet you I haven't hunted it in 10 years. And the biggest concentrations of ducks I've even ever seen in my life, and that that's that's a lot of ducks, was there. You know, where you're landing groups of, you know, 200 to 500 ducks and in just one land. So many ducks landed that you don't want to shoot them because you don't want to educate them.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

You let them land, let them loaf, and then you let them go, and you wait till you know a pair or eight come back in.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

You know, that happened several times. It just doesn't happen anymore. You go through Hollow Bend now, and it's just a lake where they sit on the corner, and you may have a thousand ducks a season. And they've kind of changed where they rest. I I mean, a couple of seasons back, I've seen more ducks on the river than I had ever seen. You know, in just one area, they were piled up, stacked up before season. But five days into season, they're all gone. They just migrated. Either went to Oklahoma or went east.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

It's crazy how everything's changing so much. Oh, yeah. And we don't even know what's really causing it. No, I mean and you know, and right now that's our big push right now, is trying to figure out what's causing it, what we can do to improve the situations. Um, I mean, what what what do you think? Let's say, all right, Josh, let's say you could go in there right now, Arkansas Game of Fish, and say, hey, we're gonna make some changes. What what would the changes be?

SPEAKER_02 32:49

First of all, I would want to know, and I have some talking points that I really want to cover, but well, go go ahead. I mean, just start spilling it out. Let us know. Educate some people. Okay, so let's talk about levels. If you know you have X amount of license sales, why not keep the levels up? And I understand you have a water management plan that you we really started talking about in 2017. I remember it vividly. We have not stuck to those plans. So we started really cutting trees, right? Now I'm not saying places haven't been logged because in my lifetime I've seen a lot, a lot of logging efforts take place that we have now gone back to hunting, and they're fine. You know, there's no problem with that. But the cutting tree practice in itself, when you look at how much revenue it actually generates, is it actually worth that based on the amount of licenses you sell? Is it worth the squeeze to go through that effort to not have a resource for the next 20 to 30 years? Because that's how long it's going to take to get a tree to stand by.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Unless there's a good reason to cut the tree.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Agreed. And I'm not saying I'm not a biologist, so I don't know that, but um, a lot of the trees that I've seen cut were healthy.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Do you think it's because you just don't know why they're cutting the trees?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

No, I think I we know what we've been told. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, and and um I'll I'll say this when you look at some of the adjacent private landowners and then holders, how many of those are doing select cuts and clear cuts on their properties? Nobody. Nobody, you know, and and when are they flooding their trees? They start flooding in October, you know, and it's not so much and like we talked about earlier. I I had always been under the impression that, hey, root systems are completely dormant in the winter. That's not true. Root systems are are always active, just more active from like spring to fall. So keeping water off of trees during that time period is more imperative than worrying about it in the winter. Not saying you don't need to worry about it, you don't need to soak a tree for anytime. But it's not as important, it's not as important. Yeah, as detrimental to the tree. Agreed. Now I'm not saying that you know trees are not meant to have water, unless they're a cypress or a tupelo, they're not meant to have water on them for that long of a period. Right. So it would be imperative to get that water off of them starting in the spring, keep them dry until the fall, and then begin your flood efforts. So in October, November, you've got a place for those ducks to find refuge and assimilate to. And why do you think they're not able to do that? As of right now, it's because we don't start putting gates in to sometimes November 15th. Sometimes, you know, in the past it's been mid-December. Why? Well, they've got a flood plan, right? Their flood plan that that we first saw, it was in the WMA that's kind of on the eastern part of the state. And it started in 2017, and we were told, hey, we're gonna go to a five-year management plan, and we're gonna lower the level next year, then it'll be less than next year, two years it won't flood, and then we'll we'll go back with a little bit more staggered flooding on following that. That same WMA has not had a single board in or a gate closed since 2017, and all they have done is log it. And I say you're like, oh, that's not possible. No, I can walk you through the areas that are now gone. We had several areas that were just great. We didn't even hunt those areas, but I definitely saw ducks using those areas no longer. You know, it's just clear cuts. Not a select cut, it's a straight, just clear cut. Multiple football fields worth the trees just gone.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I it just don't make no sense. No, it don't make no sense. And you know, that's that I mean that's the problem. I mean, that's what we're seeing. That's what we're hearing. We're hearing it from our customers, we're hearing it from our from everybody. It just doesn't make any sense. I think, like you said earlier in the podcast, that they need to do a better job explaining.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Yeah, I mean, that's the that's the big thing about it is when people don't know and they're out of the loop, people are gonna assume the worst. That's just the nature of the beast. People are gonna assume they're they're doing something that they might not actually be doing, but without everybody knowing or them explaining it to people, people are just gonna jump to conclusions. So what else do you think?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

I mean I think I think we've had 10 years of runtime on the water management plan. It starts time to see some real statistics. Yeah. You know, I want to see what what improvements to trees that they did the surveys on initially have we seen? Are they now healthier? How's the new stand of trees doing that took their place?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

It's a it's okay to be wrong.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

It's okay to be wrong. I mean, but stop it now.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yeah. If that's the case. Right. I mean, I agree. And um, you know, water on trees. You know, we we talk about that, hey, we want to keep the water on trees, we want to protect this stand of red oaks. One of the stands of red oaks that they're trying to protect has not flooded it since the hundred-year flood. When you look at the highest water on record, it never reached the level of the red oak stand that they were trying to protect originally. So that that was frustrating to me, you know, talking to people from the Corps of Engineers about it. Um, and you look at public versus private practice on flooding trees.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

You know, they they flood their obviously they're doing something, we're doing something different.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah, I think the answer is they're getting water off the trees and keeping it off, you know, and their trees are a little bit healthier than ours, but you don't see people not flooding, you don't see private landowners staggering this trees. That's true. You know, you see them flood it in October, drain it in February.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Let me ask you something.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

That is true.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

The private clubs, are they making money?

SPEAKER_02 38:08

I mean, depends in what sense. If they're guiding, I feel like they're definitely making money.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

But is most of them making money? Or is it is it is it a tax write-off on these private clubs?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

I think it's different for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

It is different for everybody. But either way, it's it's wrapped around revenue.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Uh I I would say so.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Either tax revenue or so they run it more like a business.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

I would say most of them do.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, I run it more like a business. So they know when to put the water on the trees and when not when to take the water off. Yeah, I mean they're because it's an investment for them, right? They're playing the game. It's an investment for sure. Is that the main difference between them and Arkansas Gaming Fish? I don't know. One one needs it to be a successfully ran business. One one one part, I mean, one's say, hey, I'm getting paid to do this, we're we're getting paid to manage, and one's making money, or it's a tax write-off, or it's a benefit in some financial way. Is that why they're have different practices? Could be. I mean, what do you think, Josh? I mean, maybe. I don't know either.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

I I think um I think the answer is I don't know. I don't know either.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

You know, that's what's so important about all of this. That's what we need is somebody that does know. We just want to know. And you know, we're not here to stuff on anybody's toes. We just want to make it better. You know, like I said earlier, it's not what we see today, it's what my grandson sees tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

And the thing about it is too, even if the game of fish has been doing this for the years, and it is wrong, like you said, it's okay to be like, okay, we're wrong, everybody. But this is what we're gonna do to fix this. We're gonna we're gonna correct our path here so that we don't further, you know, make bigger problems potentially. And are they willing to do that? I think a lot of they'd be willing to take a hit like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

I mean, it's it's not necessarily a hit, I don't think. I I just think it's more of a um getting the common man involved and you know, getting the guys that go out there every day to duck hunt, you know, it just like us. I mean, you know, you know, you know, we build havoc boats, right? How often do you see us in office? Right. We're in boots on the ground. I mean, we're either we're either looking, watching, or we're on the water testing, right? You know, and we're really involved. I mean, you go to a lot of different boat companies, and you know, there's a difference between us. We don't have an office. Right. We're like a we're like the boss man that walks around. You know, we don't we have other people that stay in offices, but we are there to watch what's going on. I mean, we were walking through the plant the other day and we say, hey, uh, that's not right.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

They they gotta weld this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, figure out who's doing this and let's fix it. And it's you know, it's every day that you have to keep up your quality control, you gotta keep up your procedures, you got to teach, you gotta train. Because you said earlier, you're in a training situation, you train people, you have really good people skills, obviously. Uh, and that's hard nowadays to communicate. But you know, what I'm seeing from Arkansas Gaming Fish, they got a lot of pressure on them. And and you know, it's not just ducks, it's turkeys, it's deer, it's it's it's right, it's all of it. It's a it's a lot. We don't know everything about it.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

What we're talking about here is primarily the ducks, but you know, they're fighting fights on multiple fronts.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

They're trying to make turkey, deer, and everything better. But what's more important about it to us is what is Arkansas known for? Arkansas duck hunting. Arkansas duck hunting. It's legendary flooded timber. Everybody knows about this, you know. So you see these other states that promote their, you know, trophy animals that they got, either be deer, elk, whatever, mule deer. For us, it's ducks. I mean, where do you go to kill a mule deer?

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Man, to be honest, I I'm not a deer hunter much. I mean But it but if you did. I'm either going out west or going south. That's right. You're not gonna do it here.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

But you're gonna do your research and you're gonna figure out what's the best state. You're gonna find a place. And for a lot of people that go out of state hunting, they're gonna take vacation from work. Yeah, they're gonna go to the state they're desired to hunt, they're gonna spend money doing it. And even that happens in Arkansas, but it's four ducks.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

I mean, is it Ohio that we have to put, we have to like pay something, pay something, get so many points. Uh no, it's uh you put me on the spot. It's uh Iowa. Iowa? Oh, yeah, deer hunting. Yeah, it might be Iowa, I don't know. I'm not for sure. Preference points. Facts check me on that, I don't know. But, anyways, you know, um my big ding is Arkansas is known for green timber hunting, you know, and that's the most important resource we have when it comes to outdoor industry. Because we're not known for turkeys.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

And I would hate for another state to come in and steal that just because we're mismanaging our resources.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

You know, you brought up a good point. Can the flyway be changed by baiting? I hear rumors all the time. Missouri's doing it. Everybody's flooded cornfields. I mean, can that happen?

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Man, you're putting me on the spot on a really touchy subject.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I mean, I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

I'm just saying possible. I'll I'll talk about it, no problem. I feel like I am not for or against the practice of flooding court here. I'm I'm not for it, I'm not against it. I'm not opposed to seeing it go away for a few years just to see the impact downstream. But um I ain't talking about shins, please. I'm just talking about like over.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

I know I know where this is going, okay? We're I mean, we actually support those guys too. You know, I'm not talking about that. You know, let's leave that out of there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Let's say if there's a bunch of flooded corn in uh like is there a chance that we lose it altogether and we stop seeing ducks. Does it make an impact? Can you change a flyway?

SPEAKER_02 43:45

I just feel like the the type of timber that we have is pretty unique to Arkansas, right? So I don't know that we necessarily use it, but I or lose it, excuse me, but I feel like ducks will start imprinting on different areas. Yeah. That the the the land mix. That we have with a mixture of cypress, tupelo, and and oak trees, different breeds of oak trees and willow trees, you know, that also spawns up different kinds of invertebrates. Right. So there's some there's some benefits because ducks aren't just always eating corn. That's right. You know, they're going to eat corn and they're going to bug out for a while. So I feel like you're going to see them in all different kinds of areas.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Acorns. Yep. But um I mean that's that's the thing, huh? Acorns.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Well, I mean, I don't know that they necessarily go out and find just small, they don't really care for overcups, but they're not going out and just eating acorns by the million. No. You know, they use a lot of them for digestion. They will eat them, but um you're you're gonna see ducks in the timber looking at invertebrates and different types of offerings that they haven't had. Right. And it's really about, and this is wild. I'm gonna this is a shout out to Papa, right? 82-year-old man in Vietnam vet. He schooled me on some ducks. Um I'd like to hear it. Yeah, it's it's pretty wild, man. I never really thought about it. Some biologists somewhere probably tell me it's it's crazy, but it makes a lot of sense when you see how they behave. Um, they could sit on a rice field or a bean field or a cornfield and eat all they want, but that hen mallard, as soon as she makes, she's gonna go to the timber somewhere and she's gonna be looking for a specific type of invertebrate. Right. And the reason she's doing it is because there's protein and there's calcium, and those eggs that she's about to create inside of herself, she's gotta have calcium for that shell to form. Otherwise, you think really? Oh, yeah. I I do, I do. And um, like I said, that's a shout out to Papa. That's not my knowledge.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

So I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah, it's good stuff. It is good stuff. Man, I thought it makes sense. And it does make sense. Yeah, it's pretty neat. It's pretty neat. But I do think that there are a lot of offerings in Arkansas that are not the same anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Is Arkansas Game of Fish missing an opportunity?

SPEAKER_01 45:45

I mean, I mean, are they are are are are they taking it as serious as you believe they should?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

All right, so we that's a good question. Let me bring this up. We talked about the cutting tree practice, you know, private versus public, you know, private landowners mostly not doing it. Then we talked about water on the trees, you know, the game of fish is is preaching their water water management plan, which I have no issue with. If we're truly saving trees, but let's see the data. Let's see the trees that we kept the water off of for a few years and see how healthy they are. And then um the last one would be food inside of woods, right? So that's a touchy subject with the game and fish. Why? Right. So, well, I'll go into it. So you got you got some areas where they offer um moist soil units. And there are some benefits to moist soil units. You know, you got specific types of weeds, invertebrates that grow inside of those that that they do like, but you offer a stand of corn and they're gonna like that too. So why not have it to where your moist soil units could be a mix of both? Why not have rice and just your straight moist soil unit inside of that impoundment that's state-owned? And then you've got um the the corn thing, right? If we're so against it as a whole, as hunters, which I see online all the time, and like I said, I'm not for it or against it, but if that's the big hang up, why don't we just put some in our moist soil units to help some of these people out feel better about people up north planting corn?

SPEAKER_03 47:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

And I get it, hey, they're they're stuck up north, they're not coming down. Well, that weather has a lot to do with it. It it does, it does, that's right. But it does I will say that flooding corn is not a normal agricultural practice. So when you when you go read the the migratory bird act, the like the the pact that we made, that the federal law essentially, um it talks about what you're allowed to do in your woods, on your ground, talks about normal agricultural practice, talks about soil erosion. But I don't know any farmers that flood their corn intentionally other than during duck season. You know what I mean? Now, rice is a different story. You know, rice, rice is a different story, but corn is kind of like that is that truly agricultural practice, or is that just giving a haven for ducks? And if it's for a haven for ducks, that's fine. You know, but let us do it too. And when I say us, I mean the public land hunter.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

You know, put some of that in.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Why don't Arkansas gave me fish do it?

SPEAKER_02 48:01

I don't know. And I'm sure that the answer is probably gonna be money. You know, it costs money to plant things, but you you could have some subsidies for people that were willing to give up some of their feed, some of their data though, they have they have plenty of money.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

They just need to cut back a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

It looks like they gotta reroute it. There it does look like, and I'm not I don't know all of the numbers for 2025, but there does look like there's a surplus in their budget where there's money left over at the end of the year that could have been used for for seed. Oh, or better judgment. Yep. And one more example. So we talk about cutting trees, talk about water on the trees, um, talk about the water management plan, how one never came to fruition. But um, food in the woods, you know, we talk about food on sanctuaries, that'd be great. If you could put it on a rest area or a sanctuary and give them something else to hit, awesome. Do it on federal ground, do it on state ground, that'll definitely keep them in the area. But what about the woods? You know, and if you look at, say, Kansas, the areas I talked about earlier, you're allowed to hunt those areas. Are they baited? Depends on your definition of baiting. What is the what is the private landowner doing with this rice field? There's specific rules on what they have to do, right? They cannot just um go about it willy-nilly. I'll just put it that way. There's specific rules on how they have to flood their crops and what they have to have done. You're not allowed to manipulate it. If you didn't harvest it, you're just allowed to hunt it. And then when you get a volunteer crop the following year, then you can manipulate, which is how do you really prove it's a volunteer crop? You can go on and on. But why not put the same type of food that they're allowed to hunt over, which is cut rice? Why not put that in our woods? They're they're hunting over standing millet, right? When I say that, you there's videos online of historic videos of people planting millet in their woods, not altering it, not touching it once it sprouts. And then by the time December rolls around, all that stuff's knocked over, the heads are off, and it's all just floating in the water before it rots.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

It's a perfect example.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Yeah, but why not put millet in your public woods and allow people to hunt over it? Just tell them, hey, do not mess with these areas. You know, you don't even have to allow them to hunt directly over it, but give those ducks a reason to go there. And even better if you had impoundments inside those, and I say impoundment, just marked off areas where you had millet or rice growing that weren't allowed to be directly hunted over, but you could have them adjacent to it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

Yeah. Is it a private club versus plubbet?

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Maybe I'll tell you. Maybe, and I I I walk a lot, a lot during the season, so I put a lot of boots on the ground. And um, on average, and this is gonna sound crazy, but on average I walk about 200 miles a year in the woods, I track it all. And of course you do. Yeah, I mean I can see that. Anyway, um I'm not gonna name the place. I'm I'm big on not naming places.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Me too, especially with catching big fish.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Yeah, especially with catching fish. But just say hypothetically that there was a large 200-acre area of rice that got deposited into a public land track somewhere, and it came from an adjacent farm. Some people may say, Oh, I was flown over. There's no way that I believe that could have happened. Well, when you look at the trees around that area, it's complete devastation, like either straight line winds or ice. You know, something got those trees, because all of them were healthy. Something got those trees and broke them all over. I don't know if it was straight line wind, like I said, or if it was just ice or if it was a tornado. But at the same time that all that devastation occurred, you have more rice planted in those woods than I've ever seen in my lifetime. And I I wasn't gonna hunt it. I just wanted to see if anything would hit it. So I just kept looking at it, you know, kept seeing it. And um I guess somebody found it. Maybe a deer hunter, I don't know who found it, but they told the game and fish. So the game and fish, they took it upon themselves to go redline the entire thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

I I don't know. But I'm thinking to myself, why would you redline this? When you you definitely had areas that you could have hunted in it. I never did, just to be honest. I just didn't want to. But um they redlined it, right? So you got an adjacent area that's hunting the same conditions. They've got rice on their fields, food in their woods, they're hunting, no problem. But the gaming fish comes onto the public land and redlines all of that food. Now, granted, the duck still gets the food, right? So that's a benefit. But the area that they redlined was pretty large, you know, where you just can't have any hunter pressure in there.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

You think they did it because they didn't want too many people hunting it?

SPEAKER_02 52:35

No, I think on the edge and maybe it was a safety issue? No, I just feel like the area that that was in. I mean, good luck to anybody else who finds it, but um it's all hypothetical anyway. Yeah, you'll be looking for it forever. But um, you're gonna have a wild wild space out there.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

Yeah, yeah, it just um You just think it was done. Why?

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Why'd they redline it?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Well, uh You think it was politics? Maybe. Okay, maybe or they just leave it at that then.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

I think they wanted without saying it directly. Charge it to the game. I'm just well, I I I I feel like he's over there struggling.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

I think that's a good thing. I mean, we definitely I think we all know what I think he knows the answer. We're tippy toeing around now.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

We're exactly we all know what he's saying. But without saying it. Definitely it was a you know, overpology. Conflict of interest, yeah, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:24

Well, there's no there's nowhere else that you're gonna be able to hunt over anything like that that's state or federal owned. I'll just say that. So technically, you they could have considered that baiting, even though the farmers adjacent to those properties and across Arkansas and across the United States are hunting over the same style of crop. I cannot make that make sense.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

I mean it's like it's legal here, it's not legal here. Yep. What's the difference? So what what separates the two?

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Uh you know, and I could say, you know, maybe they think somebody flew it in. I think it was an act of nature. Yeah. You know, I don't think anybody could have flown in that pattern that that was deposited. But to just red line it with no reason why is just wild to me.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yeah, it's it's like it's overstepping their boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

There's no I can promise you there's nobody that carried that much rice into that area and deposit it.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

But whether they flew it in or not, they would have had to fly really crazy to do it. That's why I think it was a storm that actually carried that seed over there.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Right. Right. Makes sense. Makes really good sense. I mean, it does. Yeah. You can't argue with that. I mean so I mean, I I don't know. We you know, we talked about Arkansas all game fish and we talk about ducks, and then we talk about everything. But overall, I mean, you had a good duck season. Yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

I'm not gonna complain about it. Uh, there was days that were better than others. Um, you're not gonna leave every duck season with a full limit of ducks every time, but uh I made it through without injury. Yeah, you know, a healthy, and I got to see my family during duck seasons, and so that that and my friends. Yeah. So that's important to me. So I had a great duck season. We shot a great number of ducks and geese, had no complaints. Um, I would say there was days that I wish it would have been better. Yeah. Just based on the conditions, like, why is there no duck here?

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

And um, I will say this, man, I was disappointed in the youth veteran hunt. Yeah just because in an area that's historically known for green timber duck hunting, I took these two vets, two members of the Navy. Um man, we didn't see a duck. Yeah. And we sat there for hours.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

I've heard several people say the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Didn't see a duck. I did not think that was gonna happen. You know, in years past in that same area, you you could show up at any time and see ducks because they know the season's over. Ducks are smart. Yeah, it's like they knew at hey, the whatever cutoff time was, oh yeah, within one season, they knew when those cutoff times have shifted and they were based off of pressure. Oh, yeah. They're in those woods as soon as that cutoff time happens, they're getting in those woods. There was no cutoff time on those days. You could that's that's pressure.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

It's no different than it's deer hunting, it's pressure. It's I don't know. I don't know. I know there's need need to be some changes, you know, and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to make changes, trying to improve the situation for the future. And this helps. Talking about this kind of stuff helps for sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Because you know, it's like it might not be you that makes a change, but if you know you bring it up enough times and enough people hear it, somebody out there knows something that could push the pendulum, you know.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

Well, Josh, thank you for coming, man. Oh, man, it's a pleasure talking to you. It's been a good time.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

We're gonna do it again this time. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Well, guys, leave a like, subscribe, hit the bell for notifications. Thank y'all for watching. We'll catch you on the next one.