Bonus Episode – Geoff Milz: Director of Development at Pennrose

Geoff Milz is the Director of Development for Pennrose in Cincinnati, Ohio. His organization specializes in developing and managing affordable, conventional, and mixed income residential properties. He stresse the importance of creating more income aligned housing. 

Interview guest: Geoff Milz, Director of Development at Pennrose

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Transcript

Hernz (00:02):
How influential are community members in a neighborhood when it comes to construction for this developer? The community is the foundation of any project,

Geoff (00:11):
So we do a lot of work before any kind of application or before any kind of design to make sure that what we intend to build is going to be a good fit for that community. So we go to places where we're wanted.

Hernz (00:23):
Director of Development at Penrose, Jeffrey Mills says times are changing, so it's time housing these people where they are.

Geoff (00:31):
When I was in college, I worked in restaurants and I had an income that was different from my income today. I needed affordable housing then just as I do today. And so there should be housing options in each of those income bands that is aligned with different incomes as one moves through life.

Hernz (00:47):
Come see how when faced with a tough decision on whether to continue with the development or not, his company started the need was far too great to walk away.

Geoff (00:56):
Ultimately, we made the decision to execute and to close and to build. And you know what? When I hear the stories of the residents, I know that we made absolutely the right decision.

Hernz (01:08):
This bonus episode is the second installment of three interviews with developers. Jeffrey Mills has been director of development at Penrose for nearly three years and sees that Cincinnati needs a lot of different types of homes to fill the need in the area. Let's get started. This is Brick by Brick Solutions for a thriving community.

Funder (01:29):
Brick by brick is made possible thanks to leading support from A ES Ohio Foundation, greater Cincinnati Foundation, and George and Margaret McLean Foundation With additional support from Lori F. Johnston, Murray, and Agnes season good, good government foundation, the Robert and Adele Schiff Family Foundation, Ann Moore. Thank you.

Hernz (01:52):
Hello, and welcome to Brick by Brick, where we're highlighting solutions for a thriving community in southwest Ohio. I'm your multimedia journalist, Hearns Legger Jr. I sat down with Jeffrey Mills in the fall of 2024 to talk about large scale apartments, but we spoke about so much more like penrose's development philosophy. As part of the special bonus episode, I want to take you back to this extended conversation. Plus I caught up with mills this summer to get an update on Penrose's development in the Walnut Hills neighborhood in Cincinnati. Check it out. Jeffrey, once again, appreciate you for joining me here on Brick by Brick. I guess first things first, if you can tell me a little bit about your role with Penrose, and then tell me a little bit about Penrose.

Geoff (02:36):
Sure. So my name's Jeff Mills. I'm the director of Development for Penrose. We're a company that's based out of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We predominantly build affordable housing. We do it pretty much all over the country as far west as Colorado, far south as Texas. We're down in the Virgin Islands and all up and down the East Coast. But our office here in Ohio is based in Cincinnati, and we do affordable housing development all over the state of Ohio, including Cincinnati, Cleveland, Finlay, Akron, and hopefully Columbus.

Hernz (03:09):
Now, how would you describe how Penrose develops in the community?

Geoff (03:13):
Sure. I'm really proud of the model that Penrose uses. Nine times out of 10, we are partnering with a local community development corporation or a nonprofit to serve a very specific population or to fill a need that has gone unmet, particularly as it relates to housing. So in the building that we're in here, this is John Arthur Flats. This is a senior affordable building, and it's L-G-B-T-Q affirming. And so you don't of course have to be queer to live here, but certainly we hope that allies are here and this is set in a neighborhood. This building is set in a neighborhood that has always been friendly to the queer community, and it's a wonderful building. It's a wonderful case in point as to how we do what we do and why we do what we do. That is to serve populations that are unserved.

Hernz (04:03):
What makes Penrose different from other development companies in your opinion?

Geoff (04:07):
Well, I mean, I think our scale is one thing. So we're probably the fifth largest developer of affordable housing in the country when you look across all the regions. And we also are focused on affordable housing of all kinds, whether it's family product, whether it's in rural settings or urban settings or suburban settings, whether it looks like a, we would call this sort of a stacked flats or a mid-rise building, or whether it looks like townhomes. All of our buildings are designed specifically for the context within which they are, and I think that that's really special. We're not the only ones that do that, but I think we're the only ones that bring that constellation of things together.

Hernz (04:50):
So we're sitting in one of the buildings that you guys are developing here in southwest Ohio. Can you tell me about some of the other properties that you guys are working on here?

Geoff (05:00):
Sure, sure. Here in Cincinnati, a property that's near and dear to my heart is up, up right up the street, right up Hamilton Avenue in College Hill. It's 171 units of workforce housing, and that sits on top of five commercial units. So right now we have a mac and cheese restaurant. We've got just opened last week, a board game bar and a state farm agency. So that is a great example of mixed use and it's in a neighborhood that has had a 20 year vision to have density and residential units to help bring a vibrancy to its business district, which when I was growing up, it didn't have a whole lot of vibrancy. And now if you go up there, it really is, it's a great example of development done and we're so proud to be a part of that. So that's College Hill. That building is called H and in Walnut, in the Walnut Hills neighborhood on Gilbert, we have a property that is called Thatcher Flats, and it's a affordable housing development. Right now it's 50 units, but we're building another 36. It really is oriented towards the innovation district in Cincinnati. So we think of ourselves as the affordable housing component to the innovation district, and really proud of that project as well. And hopefully there will be more. In addition to John Arthur Flats, which is where we're today,

Hernz (06:25):
What are some of the obstacles that you guys encounter when looking to develop in a particular community?

Geoff (06:30):
Well, there's a lot of obstacles. It's hard. It's very hard. But first thing we look for is a community that has identified housing as a need. And by community, I mean city neighborhood could be black, but it should be a place where from our perspective, they're looking for housing that is accessible, that is aligned with the incomes of the people that are living there. So that's number one, a place that cares about housing. Number two would be it has to be within a place that scores well for those tax credits because that is a very significant portion of that capital stack that builds the deal. Three, we love to have community partners and other people that care about getting that project across the finish line because it's hard. And if you're out there by yourself, what is the cliche? Many hands make a lighter load. So when you have many people working on a project and carrying that project towards the finish line, it makes it a lot easier. And so that's another key to success. And finally, it needs to be in a place where there are financial resources that can fill those gaps. Because the unfortunate truth is there will always be those gaps on affordable housing deals.

Hernz (07:45):
John Arthur Flash was made for seniors, L-G-B-T-Q affirming folks. But when you guys make the developments like this, is there people in mind or what need or what group of people are you trying to serve with these developments?

Geoff (08:01):
Yeah, every one of our developments is different. In College Hill, it was a need that we heard from the Community Development Corporation up there that we need workforce housing and we need folks that are going to activate our business district. And we tailored our project to that. Here we heard the need from Nest was our community partner here, which is a community development corporation here in Northside that they wanted to serve the senior queer population to the greatest extent possible. And so we met that need here in Walnut Hills. It's not age restricted, so families are being served up there. There are three bedroom apartments that typically are rented by families with children, and that is really oriented towards the innovation district and the hospitals and the folks that work in Clifton in Coville. So each one of those has a very specific population that we're looking to serve. And each one of those, that population was informed by our community development partners who are on the ground every day walking in these streets every day. And they know way better than us the needs of their community.

Hernz (09:09):
But if you could talk about how large scale apartments can help with the local economy.

Geoff (09:14):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let's take the College Hill example. HBE is located in one of the corridors that connected communities has assigns greater density to. And the reason they did that was because the Southern, the Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Agency, the bus company is going to be creating bus rapid transit along Hamilton Avenue. So that means that our HBE project is going to be transit oriented, mixed use and workforce. It's a beautiful thing when all those things come together. That means that the people that live there will be able to have shopping opportunities in the business district in College Hill, and they'll be able to get to other business districts throughout the city because bus rapid transit is going to be at their doorstep. It's going to be efficient and inexpensive. I like to think about housing affordability as a three-legged stool. There's going to be your rent of course, and that in a building like this that is made less because of the low-income housing tax credits, but you also have utilities to contend with.

(10:17):
That's a cost related to where you live. And you also have transportation, which is a cost that is very much impacted by where you live. And so what we try to do is make our buildings as efficient as possible. Many of our newer buildings have solar photovoltaics, which reduce the cost of electricity, particularly for our common areas. And we are doing everything we can to orient our new buildings towards transit options so that our residents can get to the different business districts, they can get to the errands that they need to run easy and less expensively.

Hernz (10:52):
I want to know a little bit from your perspective how you see the housing market currently. How would you describe the current state of housing?

Geoff (11:00):
It's hard not to use the word crisis. It's hard. It's hard not to think about the opportunities that my kids will have and compare them to the opportunities that I had and not come to the conclusion that it's going to be so much harder for my kids than it was for me. When I bought my first house in Cincinnati, it was in College Hill and I spent $112,000. That house is probably worth close to 400,000 now. There's no way that I could have been able to purchase that house, gain equity and then move up without that. And really, when we talk about wealth formation in America, for most of us, that wealth formation comes from housing. How are folks going to in the future build wealth and really provide the stability that home ownership, if that's what your choice is or that's what your goal is, how is that going to happen?

(11:59):
It's different and we've got to figure it out. I believe that if there is a silver lining, it's that there is a way out, and that is by building more. So I really do believe that this is a supply challenge, and what we need to do is figure out how to increase the supply of housing. And as we do that, those prices are going to come down. There's going to be a place for you no matter what your income is. It will be income aligned. There will be houses for folks who make a lot of money and houses for folks that are just starting out. That's the range that we need. We need it all and we need it fast. And that's, I think, the solution to this problem. But it's hard to not to look at the landscape and not see something that could be described as a crisis.

Hernz (12:47):
You described that we need a variety of homes, but if you had to assess the Cincinnati area, what type of housing does it need more? What would you prescribe Cincinnati, in regards to housing?

Geoff (12:58):
I think the best path forward for housing in Cincinnati is housing that is dense, more dense. I think that it's aligned with existing infrastructure. I think that it is. And what I mean by that is single family attached homes. I'm not talking about it's going to be all apartment buildings in the city of Cincinnati, but it could be single family attached, it could be fourplexes, and that's a lot of what connected communities was contemplating. And hopefully we'll achieve. That's what I think we need. I think that what we need to work against is an outward pressure because I think that it is much cheaper to build outside of the city and on a greenfield than it is to build in the midst of an urban space that has had hundreds of years of history on this specific piece of land. But I think it's really important, and I think that if we are trying to align economic development, if we're trying to align economic opportunity, if we're trying to align vibrancy, cultural opportunity, I think that those all, and housing, I think that all of those goals are achieved by building housing that is high quality, dense income aligned and in the city.

Hernz (14:20):
Speaking of alignment, could you describe income aligned housing?

Geoff (14:24):
Yeah. I mean, affordable housing has so many connotations, so many different people have experienced that word in different ways. Really, what a boil. And here's the definition of affordable housing. The definition of affordable housing is if you spend 30% of your income or less on your housing, that housing is affordable to you. Now, that changes if you're a firefighter versus an attorney. You have different incomes, but your housing could be affordable or unaffordable. It really is. Housing is aligned with your income. And so what I like to talk about is when I was starting out, when I was in college, I worked in restaurants, I worked in coffee shops, and I had an income that was different from my income today. I needed affordable housing then just as I do today. And so there should be housing options in each of those income bands that is aligned with different incomes as one moves through life.

Hernz (15:19):
We hope you're enjoying our conversation with Jeffrey Mills so far. We still have way more right after this break. This is brick by brick.

Funder (15:29):
Brick by brick is made possible thanks to the generous support of so many, including Diane and Dave Mosha, p and g, the Camden Foundation, the Stephen H. Wilder Foundation, Rosemary and Mark Schlater, a donation in memory of Frank and Margaret Linhart, the at Folger Jr. Low Simpson Fund and more. Thank you. We couldn't do this work without you.

Mark (15:58):
Hey, we all have a different story even if we grew up in the same neighborhood or city, especially if we're talking about housing stories. Hi, my name is Mark Lammers, executive producer for Brick by Brick. Growing up, I lived on the west side of Cincinnati in a single family home, but I've also experienced apartment life in good and bad settings in a number of different cities. I learned a lot from those times in my life and from my journey as a whole. Now we want to hear about your housing story. That's the new audience question that's live on our show pages@thinktv.org and CT connect.org. Log in and hit the green button to share your journey and what you learn from it. We hope to share some of your experiences and lessons as we move forward on Brick by Brick, so we can all get smarter together. Thanks.

Hernz (16:53):
Welcome back to Brick by Brick. I'm Hearns Lagar Jr. Earlier you heard the extended conversation we had with Jeffrey Mills in the fall of 2024. I reached back out this summer to see what he and Penrose were up to and what difficult decisions they recently encountered with the development in Walnut Hills. And then I'll share with you his answer to one of our favorite questions we'd like to ask on Brick by Brick. Check it out. Jeffrey Mills of Penrose, thank you for joining us on Brick by Brick.

Geoff (17:21):
Thanks so much for having me, Hearns. It's a pleasure to be back with you.

Hernz (17:25):
Yes, sir. First things first, I want to touch base with you about a project that you told me during our last conversation, Thacher Flats, a couple of the buildings were already developed. Would you mind sharing with me a little bit about how that project has gone?

Geoff (17:40):
Yeah, no, I think it's gone great. We have brought online 50 units of affordable housing in the Walnut Hills neighborhood in partnership with the Walnut Hills Urban Redevelopment Foundation, a really amazing partner. They are a co-developer and co-owner of the building. And we really had the opportunity with this project to really execute on the vision that the neighborhood had. They were feeling a tremendous amount of development pressure as folks woke up to the idea that Walnut Hills is an amazingly vibrant, situated in a perfect place in the city, so many amazing amenities and people caught on. And I think the community was really wise to put together a plan that focused on preserving affordability for residents that have spent decades in the neighborhood or for attract new residents in the neighborhood. And so to your point, yeah, when we last talked, we were under construction the first phase.

(18:49):
That first phase is complete. So 50 units are online right now with some very affordable units there. And we have the second phase is under construction now with 36 additional units, and that will bring the total to 86 units there. And what's really exciting for me, what really makes me feel very proud of that project is hearing some of the stories of the residents and where their lives have been before Thatcher Flats and what Thatcher Flats really means to them is incredible. And it's a project turns where some very difficult decisions had to be made.

(19:36):
The funding that is available for this type of housing, Litech housing is very much dependent on low-income housing tax credits. And for the second phase in particular, we were relying on a combination of this 4% low-income housing tax credit with state low-income housing tax credits. And while we were fortunate to get an allocation of state tax credits, it was just half of what we needed to make the project work. And so we had to make some really tough decisions. And this is something that I bet many developers who are trying to provide this affordable product face. And the decisions really made us think about, do we do this project even if it requires taking some of the architectural flourishes off of the outside of the building and really driving what resources we have to make this come to fruition into the interior and make the actual units fantastic for the residents and accessible for the residents, or do we say, no, this isn't going to be the most beautiful building that's ever been built, and so we're just not going to build it. And those 86 units won't come to fruition. Ultimately, Hearns, what we decided was it was necessary, the community wanted it. We went back to the community and said, this is what we have. We can make it work, but this is how it is going to be. And ultimately, we made the decision to execute and to close and to build. And you know what? When I hear the stories of the residents, I know that we made absolutely the right decision.

Hernz (21:17):
I know you told me during our last conversation that Penrose has really prized himself on connecting with the community and making sure that what they develop in the community is accepted by the community. How would you say the community has reacted to the development and the changes that had to be made? Was there any pushback there? Any questions? Were there any concerns?

Geoff (21:42):
Yeah. So in the early stages of looking at the resources, the total amount of resources we had and the cost to build, we went to the community. And again, like I mentioned, asked, is this still a project that is important to you all? Do you want to see this get across the finish line? And the answer was absolutely yes. We provided a number of different options for the color of the building and the color of different aspects of the building, the design, the mural, what the mural would look like, which is gorgeous, by the way. I think it's awesome. And the community weighed in and they chose what those components would be. And so that was all great. But there has been some pushback from folks in the community and maybe I'd say the broader community outside maybe of Walnut Hills that say, Hey, this is not what we want to see more of.

(22:48):
We don't want to see more units that look like this or units in buildings that look like this. And that's understandable to an extent, but those opinions have caused me to reflect on privilege and on the privilege that many in our community have to value aesthetics over safety, aesthetics, over stability, and housing stability. And when you hear the stories of the individuals that live in Thatcher Flats, it's clear that for many others in our community, they don't have that same privilege to say, Hey, I want a pitched roof rather than a flat roof, or I want black windows or white windows. For many folks, like what I want is a safe place to call home that I can afford a place that is dry, a place that is warm, a place that is cool in the summertime as we are here.

(23:59):
And so when I hear those opinions about the aesthetics of the building, it makes me reflect even more on that privilege, and it's a worthy policy debate to have. My position is that our community needs affordable housing. It needs housing of all kinds. We talked about this, it needs luxury housing, it needs midpoint housing, and it needs more public housing, frankly. I mean, we need housing of all types. And so I just don't feel like at this moment in time we, well, I'll just say at this moment in time, I think we need more of everything. And I think that that's your flats. While it may cause some to have and share opinions, I think that it was the right thing to do, and I think that we should prioritize the provision of safe, affordable housing for all over in some instances, aesthetic concerns when you have a fact pattern like we do here,

Hernz (25:03):
When will Dasher Flats be fully completed?

Geoff (25:06):
Dasher Flats will be fully completed August 11th, knock on wood. But that is our completion date right now, which is just weeks away. That's right. Just weeks away. So right now there's 50 units that are full, and we are starting lease up for the 36 units that are coming online now. And there's quite a list, hundreds of folks that are on the list that have said they would like to lease there. So we are hopeful and pressing on.

Hernz (25:41):
We're just about done with this episode. But before we end, I wanted to go back to Jeffrey Mills to answer a staple question we have here on Brick By Brick. In your opinion, what describes a thriving community?

Geoff (25:54):
So a thriving community is one, I think, in which regardless of your background, there is opportunity for you. A thriving community is one in which there's an active street life and a healthy culture. There's acceptance. There's the ability to live the American dream, right? I talk about this with my son frequently. What is the American dream? It's that each generation, we have opportunities to get closer to what it is that we want, and that can take many different forms for many different people, but I think a thriving community supports that path, whatever it may be, and we're thrilled to be a part of many thriving communities in Ohio.

Hernz (26:40):
That's awesome. Jeffrey Mills, director of Development for Penrose, thank you so much for meeting with me on Brick By Brick. Thanks. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yes, sir.

(26:48):
Remember, if you're interested in digging deeper into our conversation with Jeffrey Mills and want to learn more about Brick by Brick in general, there are plenty of web articles and videos. Go to CT connect.org and think tv.org, and we'd love to hear your housing story too. Click on one of the big green buttons to share your feedback with us. We have one more developer interview coming your way. My fellow multimedia journalist, Ika Moore rounds out our bonus episodes with her conversation with Tim Forbis on August 20th. Then right after that, season two, here we come. That's our show. If you like what you hear, please rate and review our podcast. It helps make it easier to find. We hope you learned something, and if you did, please share with your friends and family for Ika Moore and Anne Thompson. I'm Hearns Legger Jr. We appreciate you all for listening. We'll be back with some more solutions very soon. Take care.

(27:49):
Our show is produced, hosted, and edited by Anne Thompson with reporting and story editing for me, Hearns Legger Jr. And Amy Gilmore. Our executive producer is Mark Lamber. Our show consultant is Gloria Gersky, audio sweetening provided by Mike Swartz. Zach Kramer runs the lights and cameras. Derek Smith is our production specialist, and Jason Garrison is our production manager. Kelly May heads up our marketing and promotions, along with Mike Shea and Bridget Dillenberger. Alyssa Stinson handles the website. And Steve Wright and Josh Lusby are our designers. Bill Dean and Andreas Cruza are the engineers for the show. And our chief content officer is Colin Blo. Our music is from Universal Production Music, brick by Brick Solutions for a Thriving Community. It's a production of CET and Think tv Southwest Ohio. PBS Member Stations.