What To Do About Rising Property Taxes?

Property taxes date back to at least the 1600s, making up an average 70 percent of local government revenue. They pay for schools, police, fire, infrastructure and more. But as property values increase so do property taxes, pricing some people out of their homes. States are scrambling to offer relief. But is it enough and are there alternatives?  

Interview Guests: Former Ohio lawmaker Bill Seitz; Associate Director of Tax Policy, Lincoln Institute of Land Policy Adam Langley; Butler County Commissioner Don Dixon; Montgomery County Auditor Karl Keith; Committee to Abolish Property Taxes Organizer Brian Massie; Hamilton City Schools Superintendent Andrea Blevins; urban sociologist and property tax researcher Junia Howell

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Transcript

Ann Thompson:

Owning property is expensive, but add in the required property taxes and it's sticker shock.

Carol Monahan:

If they keep going up, it's going to be like, okay, shoot, I'm going to have to move. I've got to downsize. I don't want to do that.

Ann Thompson:

That's because some levees are tied to what property is worth, causing bills to skyrocket.

Bill Seitz:

The problem is very simple. Real estate valuations, price valuations have greatly outstripped the rate of inflation for about the last seven years.

Ann Thompson:

2023, 2024 property values increased 28% in Hamilton County, 34% in Montgomery County, and 37% in Butler County. Even though property taxes aren't popular, they date back thousands of years.

Adam Langley:

The property tax has been around for a long time. According to some sources, it goes all the way back to the ancient Egyptians.

Ann Thompson:

In Ohio, it's the oldest form of taxation dating back to the 1830s and pays for every government service you can think of, including police, fire, infrastructure, and schools.

Andrea Blevins:

There is no inflationary growth, so the only way that school districts generate new money is to go back to the voters.

Ann Thompson:

There are efforts to get rid of property taxes, including Ohio. Florida is drafting a plan outlined on Fox Business to make up the lost revenue should voters decide to eliminate property taxes.

Gov. Ron DeSantis:

Of course, we're going to make sure we have fire, police, and all the core things, but the reality is these local governments have overspent and people are paying more and more for that. And at some point it's like, when is enough, enough?

Ann Thompson:

In this episode, the problem of rising property taxes, how local governments have their hands tied by state lawmakers, but still manage in some cases to give homeowners relief. And one possible solution 29 other states are using called a circuit breaker. What is it and how does it work? Let's get into it. This is Brick by Brick, solutions for a thriving community.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to leading support from Greater Cincinnati Foundation, AES Foundation and George and Margaret McLane Foundation, with additional major support from Laurie    Johnston, The Robert & Adelle Schiff Family Foundation, Murray and Agnes Seasongood Good Government Foundation and more. Thank you

Ann Thompson:

Hello and welcome to Brick by Brick, where we're highlighting solutions for a thriving community in Southwest Ohio. I'm your host, Ann Thompson. Get ready. It's almost time for another round of property appraisals, meaning your taxes will likely go up next year. Counties do them every three years because the property tax is the largest source of revenue raised by local governments. In Ohio, it amounts to 65%. And the thing about property taxes is it doesn't matter how much you make or your ability to pay, you still owe what your home is worth. Nationwide, the poorest 20% of taxpayers pay 4.2% of their income in property taxes. It's 1.7% for the wealthiest households. Adam Langley is the associate director of tax policy at the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy. Lincoln released a study on property taxes last year, and among other things, found great disparities even in communities where they were trying to do right by homeowners over time.

Adam Langley:

One of the most striking findings in the 50 state property tax comparison study is the size of inequities created by property tax assessment limits. So over time, these assessment limits create really large disparities in property tax bills for owners of nearly identical homes based on how much has their home appreciated and how long have they owned it?

Ann Thompson:

And don't expect significant property tax relief anytime soon. As state and federal aid dries up, local governments will be looking for even more.

Adam Langley:

Federal government is significantly scaling back support for state and local government, cutting Medicaid and other sorts of policy changes, which are going to mean that state and local governments have a hole in their budget that they need to fill. They might actually need to raise taxes.

Ann Thompson:

In 2022, local governments in Ohio collected a record high in property taxes, 19 and a half billion. It was tied to huge increases in property values for 2023, 2024. Hamilton County, up 28%. Montgomery County, 34%. Butler County, 37%. Clermont County, up 39%, and the list goes on. Renters are also being impacted. Columbus is one of only 15 cities in the Lincoln study that imposes a higher statutory tax rate on apartments than homesteads.

Adam Langley:

It's not completely clear, but the evidence suggests that most of those property taxes imposed on apartment buildings are pushed through to tenants in the form of higher rent.

Ann Thompson:

Langley says given that the average renter has a lower income than homeowners, state and local government should really think twice about shifting the tax burden onto apartment buildings. Recognizing property taxes continue to climb, Ohio has passed a handful of bills which cut more than $2 billion over three years. You can read about them at cetconnect.org and thinktv.org. The journal news says the owner of a Butler County $100,000 home would save about $213 a year under the change. In Montgomery County, it would mean around $277. The legislation included some ideas from the governor's property tax working group, of which former lawmaker Bill Seitz was co-chair. Site says the most meaningful of the group's 21 recommendations applied to both school revenues and inside millage is ...

Bill Seitz:

Instead of allowing some levies to rise in lockstep with increasing property valuations, we are instead going to cap that rate of increase at no more than the rate of inflation. That gives these districts some inflationary growth in their revenue stream. Makes sense. But it doesn't give them the windfall that they've enjoyed because of this vast increase in property valuations.

Ann Thompson:

But in the case of House Bill 186, Seitz says lawmakers wrongly applied it retroactively, forcing the school districts to give back lawfully collected monies in 2023 and 2024.

Bill Seitz:

We could not have foreseen this chicanery that was pulled at the last minute, which results in the retroactive application of that new principle, and that's unfair.

Ann Thompson:

And in another case, the committee wanted county budget commissions to be prohibited from reducing the amount for any levee for five years because to change it would be undemocratic. In House Bill 309, the lawmakers changed it to one year. Seitz’s committee did look at ways to reduce property taxes for the elderly on a fixed income, but he says the state lawmakers weren't interested in increasing the homestead exemption or creating a tax deferral. The homestead exemption exempts a portion of the home's market value from taxation. Some counties are getting frustrated about the lack of progress at the state level, including Butler County. Commissioners say they've been looking out for people on a fixed income for years. Brick by Bricks Emiko Moore tried to get a better understanding of what they've been trying and if it's working.

Emiko Moore:

Over 10 years ago, 70-year-old Carol Monahan retired from Proctor & Gamble and enjoys her lakefront home and tight-knit community in Fairfield.

Carol Monahan:

I love the view. And the neighbors here, I was the 10th one to move in. I was the 10th homeowner to build here. And the neighbors have moved in and everybody's great.

Emiko Moore:

But when residents of Butler County saw the spike in their 2023 property taxes, many began to question their ability to stay in their homes and wrote letters to the county, including Monahan.

Carol Monahan:

Dear Butler County Treasurer. Is there any possibility that us older people, 70 and old over, can get a break on these taxes? I don't want to have to sell my house that I love and move somewhere less desirable.

Emiko Moore:

The impact of COVID-19 and the shortage of housing helped create a perfect storm that Butler County commissioners saw coming. Don Dixon is president of the Board of Commissioners with over 30 years experience.

Don Dixon:

I went through an earlier bout with this with the state tax commissioner in late 2007, 2008, and that's when we were having a lot of foreclosures and interest rates were bouncing all around, but foreclosures were through the roof.

Emiko Moore:

Butler County is in an earlier phase in Ohio to get their property reassessments, which occur every three years and was seeing over 30% increases before other counties and begin sounding the alarm bells.

Don Dixon:

You know that you can't take a 35% real estate increase in any kind of business and not damage the business or put you out of business or be a lot of people laid off.

Emiko Moore:

The commissioners called for a summit together with lawmakers, but it didn't lead to any new legislation.

Don Dixon:

So we battled through it and a couple trips to Columbus, hours on the phone with our legislators and different organizations trying to get some consolidation of a group to be able to get everybody's attention. And when I testified in Columbus a couple times, I said, "Look, I'm going to tell you guys something. You don't seem to take this serious, but one day if you don't fix this, they will fix it.

Emiko Moore:

" After legislative efforts stalled, the commissioners in Butler County took the reins. This past fall, they gave unprecedented tax breaks payable in 2026, a one-year 12.5 million tax rollback, as well as doubled the homestead exemption for the 19,000 eligible seniors and disabled homeowners.

Don Dixon:

We have worked very hard to be able to accumulate enough cash that we can run nine months without any funding from anybody. Okay? We can run nine months. We have that much carryover.

Emiko Moore:

For other counties, doubling the homestead exemptions would not work. Karl Keith is the auditor from Montgomery County.

Karl Keith:

We got 88 counties in Ohio, and I think only nine have chosen to go that route. So it's not been widely addressed. Voters voted to spend those dollars on schools or on parks or the library. They didn't vote to spend those monies giving someone a tax break. And so I think it's a little bit inappropriate. And again, different counties, it's a bigger burden than others.

Emiko Moore:

But Dixon admits this isn't a one size fits all solution and that real change in legislation needs to happen.

Don Dixon:

It's a Band-Aid, but we can only do that so long, only because we've got an economic development program that throws off enough returns as far as sales tax and real estate taxes that we can afford to do that. A lot of these counties are going day to day. It's not a fixed all forever. The whole thing needs to be reconsidered and reworked.

Carol Monahan:

Places should look at maybe figuring out ways to cut budget so that it's not always falling on the homeowners. You know what? When I built it, I wasn't paying these high taxes, but it just keeps continuing on and on. And not just for me, I'm talking about for other people who are retired and people have had to sell their homes and move downsize and things. I love my house and I don't want to go through the hassle of having to move again. For

Ann Thompson:

For Brick by Brick, I'm Emiko Moore. Ann? Thanks, Emiko. But what's good for property owners doesn't always help schools. Districts depend on levy revenue and are having to constantly change their budgets based on what they're hearing from Columbus. The recent property tax legislation and other funding decisions are just the latest challenges for Hamilton City Schools, the 18th largest school district in the state with an annual budget of $124 million. Over the years, it's managed its money well. The last levy request was in 1993, but with funding cuts at the state level, Hamilton is facing a deficit. Superintendent Andrea Blevins is looking for solutions.

Andrea Blevins:

My treasurer and I meet regularly to understand what are the latest trends that we're seeing in our budget to make sure we aren't overspending, to make sure we're being responsive to the changes that are happening both at the state and local level.

Ann Thompson:

For example, posting report cards electronically instead of mailing them will save $100,000 a year. Blevins is looking for other ideas and held a series of forums last fall. She explains Hamilton gets 75% of its funding from the state and 20% from local property taxes, which is the lowest legal limit she says you can tax your community.

Andrea Blevins:

We want to be on top of this. We want to make sure we have a plan that we clearly communicate to our staff and to our community, and is also responsive of what the needs are. Not just what we think, but what you think, what the data tells us, what the results show us, so that we can be the best district we can each and every day.

Ann Thompson:

Treasurer Jeremy Frazier's data shows a deficit ranging from about five million to nearly 20 million from fiscal year 2026 to 2029 if no changes are made. Cutting the school funding formula prompted all 12 Butler County districts to draft a letter calling for reform. Former board member, Lauren Sprague.

Laurin Sprague:

If you are thinking about contacting the state, please do. Because we always talk about ... I don't think you said it in this one. We always talk about those are state dollars. Those aren't state dollars. Those are your dollars.

Ann Thompson:

Based on the treasurer's projections, the district is finalizing a spending plan, which the board will vote on. Because of cuts to the fair school funding plan, Blevins says it's the first time every single school district in the county is experiencing financial distress. She says, "We have to preserve free education."

Andrea Blevins:

Public school is the American dream. It doesn't matter where you come from. It doesn't matter whether your parents have wealth or not. Public schools should be the place where all kids can come, see themself and have a sense of belonging, but also be able to follow their passions.

Ann Thompson:

Just ahead on Brick by Brick, 29 states and the District of Columbia all have a version of the same solution to hold down property taxes. What is it? Plus, tax disparities and their impact on black and brown communities.

Junia Howell:

And communities of color, particularly in our county black neighborhoods and lower income neighborhoods are disproportionately over tax compared to their counterparts and white neighborhoods and more affluent neighborhoods.

Ann Thompson:

That's coming up on Brick by Brick.

Ame Clase:

Brick by Brick is made possible thanks to the generous support of so many, including Diane and Dave Moccia, P & G, The Camden Foundation,  The Stephen H. Wilder Foundation, TJ and Susie Ackermann, Patti and Fred Heldman, a donation in memory of Frank and Margaret Linhardt, and more. Thank you. We couldn't do this work without you.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Hey, it's Hernz Laguerre Jr., One of the team members behind Brick by Brick. If you think about it, we all have a different perspective of what a thriving community should look like. That's why we need to hear from you. We want to know what a thriving community looks like to you. Maybe it's more housing, more parks, or stores, or even safer sidewalks. Whatever your vision, we hope you'll share with us. You can do that by heading to the Brick by Brick Showpage on cetconnect.org or thinktv.org. There you'll find an audience question button. Just file out the survey and that's it. We look forward to sharing your hopes and dreams with the rest of our neighbors in future episodes. Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Welcome back to Brick by Brick. More than two dozen states try to prevent a property tax overload with something called a circuit breaker. Ohio doesn't have it, but co-chair of the Property Tax Working Group Bill Seitz tried to push for it.

Bill Seitz:

And here's how it works. Whenever your property taxes exceed a specified percentage of your income, all or a portion of that increase you don't pay. The state will pay the difference.

Ann Thompson:

But Seitz says Ohio lawmakers weren't interested. The circuit breaker was also part of Adam Langley's recommendation. He wrote another report for Lincoln Institute of Land policy called Property Tax Relief for Homeowners.

Adam Langley:

It's specifically targeted at people whose property tax burdens are heaviest. People on fixed incomes, people who lost their jobs, moderate income homeowners who happen to live in hot, gentrifying neighborhoods where values are going up a lot.

Ann Thompson:

The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy says more than two thirds of states with circuit breakers extend their programs to at least some renters and Oregon provides its circuit breaker exclusively to renters. Go to our website at thinktv.org or cetconnect.org to see how circuit breakers meaningfully improve property tax fairness. A map of circuit breakers shows primarily blue states. What about getting rid of property taxes altogether? Florida is thinking about it and needs 60% voter approval. Governor Ron DeSantis says it's doable because it's only for permanent residents and they make up just 30% of the state. Florida property taxes would still apply to people who have second homes, investment properties, and rentals in the state. The situation is not the same in Ohio where it's unclear how the billions of dollars that property taxes make up would be replaced. It's 65% of the budget. Here's the idea from Brian Massey who leads the committee to abolish property taxes.

Brian Massie:

We first started out with SOS, SOS, Save Our Seniors. We thought we could convince the state legislators to abolish Ohio property taxes for seniors when they hit 65. That was quickly shut down. That's when we said ... And the expression we use, we've got to starve the beast. We've got to actually abolish the property taxes.

Ann Thompson:

Massey says he's tried to get enough signatures to put the measure on the statewide ballot this fall. He's still working through how the state would make up for the lost money. Some of his solutions are more radical than others.

Brian Massie:

In Ohio, it's not a revenue generation problem. It's a spending problem. Do we need 611 school districts in the state? If you don't have property taxes, you're not going to need an auditor or a treasurer in every county. And I said, "Well, that's the start to reduce the size of government."

Ann Thompson:

Nationally, the tax foundation says there is no good way to pay for property tax repeal. Lincoln tax expert, Adam Langley, read their report.

Adam Langley:

And they found that in Ohio to eliminate the property tax, the average combined state and local income tax rate would need to rise from 4.24% to 12.59%. So basically tripling and 12.59%, it would just be a massive outlier. That's the same as California's top rate for millionaires.

Ann Thompson:

Brick by Brick will continue to follow this effort and watch whether or not the issue gets on the ballot. Many people are wondering, if not property taxes, then what? As a headline in the Ohio Capital Journal asks. We just referenced one option. Other possibilities include make up the loss with income taxes or the sales tax or just dramatically cut local budgets. None of these seem realistic. Beginning this year, Montana will tax wealthy out- of-state homeowners more and its permanent residents less. So alongside Florida will have at least a few states to keep an eye on for additional response. Another option is just taxing the value of the land. This eliminates taxes on any house, apartment, or business on the land and any improvements that have been made. In Ohio, a land tax would require a constitutional amendment. It's being proposed by Ohio Senator Bill Blessing.

Pennsylvania has had a land tax on the book since 1913 and implemented it in 20 cities and counties. Results show it expanded the housing supply, combated urban sprawl and encouraged renovation and more. Detroit considered a land value tax. Why? It has some of the highest property taxes in the nation, but it didn't pass in the planned February 2024 vote. However, the new mayor has talked about reviving the idea. Don't expect the conversation around property taxes to go away anytime soon. Ohio lawmakers are still drafting new legislation. One idea would give local governments and county commissioners the authority to lower property taxes. Another would require every county to offer payment plans and there may be other ideas. We switch gears now to talk about a related topic, housing appraisals. Research shows that some black and brown communities receive a lower appraisal value when compared to white neighborhoods.

Despite logical thinking that this might lead to lower property taxes, that is not the case quite often, and these residents pay proportionately more than their white counterparts. Brick by Brick’s Hernz Laguerre Jr. Interviewed one researcher who has seen this disturbing trend firsthand.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Some Hamilton County residents feel like their property taxes are rising randomly and rapidly. South Cumminsville resident Charles Johnson calls it.

Charles Johnson:

Inconsistent. One year it went up maybe about $18 for the whole amount for the year. Next year, like I said, it's $160, almost $17080 difference.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

And Northside resident Sandy Hamilton, who we featured last season on our ADU episode, has seen her property taxes double.

Sandy Hamilton:

I didn't think it was fair because a percentage of increase wasn't across the board throughout the City of Cincinnati.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Urban sociologist, Dr. Junia Howell has research inequality with property taxes in Hamilton County. I sat down with her at the Working and Neighborhood headquarters ahead of a homeownership workshop. She explains how the assessment of taxes contribute to the disparity. She also explains how market appraisals correlate with tax assessments.

Junia Howell:

So based on Ohio law, like many states, the property tax is supposed to be a proportion of the value of your house and what's often called the market value, so what you could go out and sell your house for. Now, gratefully, the government doesn't make us sell our house every year just to figure out how much it would cost. That would be insane, right? But because of that, they have to figure it out. But how they figure it out is slightly different than how a bank's going to figure out how much your house is worth if you're going for a loan. So in the case of a bank, they do what's called a market appraisal. They're going to send an appraiser to your house. They're going to look at your house. They're going to look through it. They're going to try to find similar houses out in the neighborhood that they're going to compare to.

A county cannot spend the time or money to do that. Instead, they do what's called a mass assessment model, which is just a fancy word for doing a computer model that gives the best guess.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Since property assessments are different from market appraisals, how does this affect the taxes residence pay?

Junia Howell:

Generally speaking, the assessments are pulling the market appraisals or what you could actually sell the house for kind of to the middle because of how the estimates work. If you have a really expensive house, especially compared to the other houses in your neighborhood, your tax assessment is actually going to probably be a little bit lower than what you could actually sell that house for in the market. And inverse is true if you have the cheapest house in the block. So in some ways that might sound good because it means everyone's taxes are actually, or their assessments are actually closer to that middle, but it also means that the same people who have more resources are being charged less in their property taxes.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Are there other demographic differences in who is paying more than others in Hamilton County?

Junia Howell:

Yeah. Like many other counties around the country, Hamilton County experiences a phenomenon where people in communities of color, particularly in our county black neighborhoods and lower income neighborhoods are disproportionately over tax compared to their counterparts and white neighborhoods and more affluent neighborhoods. This has to do with honestly the racist logics that are a part of the market appraisal system. And because the county is trying to be race neutral, they're not taking those logics in, which in one way is a good thing, but they unintentionally then are creating the opposite effect where they're actually then overtaxing the black neighborhoods and the lower income areas.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

How do property taxes compare to residents' wealth?

Junia Howell:

So this year is part of a fellowship I was doing with the Federal Reserve in Boston. I actually looked at this explicitly. And so we looked across 50 years of data across almost the entire nation and we said, okay, let's actually measure wealth compared to what people are paying in property tax. So the first measure of wealth was what scholars often call net worth to just like add up all your assets and minus your debt and compare that to property taxes. And we found that those with the most wealth are paying the least in property taxes relative to their wealth compared to those with the least amount of wealth. The wealthiest people in our country, most of their wealth isn't in their house, it's in their other assets versus if you are not that wealthy and you own a house, that's a lot of your wealth.

So you're getting tax in a much higher proportion of your wealth than if you are super wealthy and have a ton of assets.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

I guess that part is the part that admittedly just sounds the most contradictory, right? If people with less wealth are paying higher in tax rates, first off, how is that possible? And does this affect their ability to accumulate wealth, especially over time?

Junia Howell:

It's possible because of the algorithms that are used to assess these, because we're not actually taxing the wealth when you make the wealth when you sell the health. We're testing a guess of what we think that house is worth over time. And historically and across different places, we see those guesses are not very good, especially relative to the inequality across wealth.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Is there a way that you feel like appraisals could be done in a way that better assesses someone home?

Junia Howell:

On the market appraisal side, there's actually multiple things that I think we could change to make sure it was more equitable, kind of all the way to if we're really dreaming and really getting there. I argue that making appraisals about the material reality so the quality of your physical house would be a much more equitable way that was disconnected from the historical legacy of race and class that has created a lot of this inequality.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Professor Junia Howell, thank you so much for joining us on Brick By Brick.

Junia Howell:

Thank you so much for having me.

Ann Thompson:

Thanks, Hernz. Philadelphia residents experienced home appraisal bias and the city formed a task force in 2021 to try to get rid of it. Despite specialized training and the hiring of dedicated staff, new research shows it remains a potential roadblock for home buyers in that city. There are no easy solutions to home appraisal bias or property tax relief. Let's talk about it with the team. It's time for takeaways. And we welcome to the microphone, Hernz Laguerre Jr.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Hello.

Ann Thompson:

And Amico Moore. 

Emiko Moore:

Hello. 

Ann Thompson:

So Hernz, what are your takeaways from this?

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Yeah, most of the people I spoke to in leading up to this episode, I spoke to a lot of senior citizens, seniors on a fixed income, whether they were middle class, lower class, upper class. Everyone had an issue where property tax is increasing because it affects their quality of life. On top of that, if you look nationally, no state had an average residential property tax bill under $1,000 for the first time in 2024 according to Newsweek. When you see those issues, but then you also see the inequalities, I'll show you some things that Junior shared with me during our conversation. Property tax bills rose two times more in communities of colored than in white neighborhoods. Low income households pay 18 times more in their income on property tax than higher income households. And also these assessment equations contribute to inequality on property taxes as a whole.

When you think about all these issues, you can understand why people feel so burdened by their property taxes.

Ann Thompson:

Yeah, all that is quite disturbing. Emiko?

Emiko Moore:

Yeah. One of the things I asked Carol Monaghan, the homeowner in Butler County, that if she had to tighten her belt, did she think that other people should have to tighten their belt like those who make the decisions, those who implement them and recipients of the taxes, and she wholeheartedly agreed. It should be everybody tightening their belts. Property taxes are complicated and for many, these are the largest bills that people pay every year, and yet so many do not understand how it works, what a millage means, or when a levy's passed, how much that's going to affect their property bills.

Ann Thompson:

Yeah, so true.

Emiko Moore:

And I think that until the public better understands this tax process and demands more meaningful changes, legislative changes, it's going to continue to be challenging in the coming years.

Ann Thompson:

And if you think about it, property owners are not helpless. They do have a say. So when levees are on the ballot, homeowners and renters must decide if the issue passes, can I afford the additional taxes that I will have to pay? And you might have to set a limit, like I'll pay up to a certain amount, and then if it goes beyond that, I will have to vote no. Even if you support the issue, or also that it may hurt various county agencies and schools.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

Which is a tough decision because a lot of people enjoy the services they have in their communities, but they also don't want to lose their entire income on those services as well. 

Ann Thompson:

We realize property taxes are complicated and we have lots and lots of information on our website. So please go there, use it as a resource at cetconnect.org or thinktv.org. Thanks guys.

Hernz Laguerre Jr.:

No problem.

Emiko Moore:

Thank you.

Ann Thompson:

Coming up on the next Brick by Brick, Toxic Housing.

Jeremy Hessel:

They'll be looking in living spaces, bathrooms, bedrooms, just to find that mold that's being complained about.

Ann Thompson:

We're talking mold, lead paint, lead pipes, bad housing materials, and more. How prevalent are they and what kind of a difference getting rid of them can make? That's on the next episode of Brick by Brick. 

That's our show. We hope you learn something and can tell your neighbors about it. And if you liked it, please rate and review the podcast and makes it easier to find. For Hernz Laguerre Jr. And Emiko Moore, I'm Ann Thompson. Take care. 

Our show is produced, hosted an edited by me, Ann Thompson with reporting and story editing from Hernz Laguerre Jr. and Emiko Moore. Our Executive producer of Mark Lammers. Audio sweetening provided by Mike Schwartz. Zach Kramer runs the lights and cameras. Derrick Smith is our production specialist and Jason Garrison is our production manager. Kellie May heads up our marketing and promotions, along with Mike Shea and Bridgett Dillenburger. Elyssa Stefenson handles the website and Josh Lusby and Steve Wright are our designers. Bill Dean and Andres Kruza are the engineers for the show and our Chief Content Officer is Colin Scianamblo. Our music is from Universal Production Music. Brick by Brick: Solutions for a Thriving Community is a production of CET and ThinkTV, Southwest Ohio PBS member stations.