What If Hourly Rates Are Holding You Back with Joel Miller

We talk with marketing agency owner Joel Miller about why most service providers underprice their work and how that choice quietly blocks growth. We break down positioning, value-based pricing, and practical ways therapy practice owners can raise rates while serving clients well. 

Connect with Joel:

https://www.theskyfloor.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelelliottmiller/

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We specialize in helping therapy practices like yours achieve financial clarity, so you can focus on what you do best—helping your clients and managing your team- while we help handle all the businessy stuff they didn’t teach you in grad school. 

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*Intro/outro song credit:
King Around Here by Alex Grohl

Transcript

Meet Joel And The Big Question

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Today, I had an opportunity to interview Joel Miller, the owner of the Skyfloor. It's a marketing agency that goes above and beyond what your typical marketing agency does. Today we dug into how pricing your services can really impact your growth and your revenue sources, but also how can you improve that and start working toward increasing your rates so that you're charging what you and your team deserve. My name is Craig, and I'm the owner of Daisy Financial Coaching. Our team is on a mission to make your therapy practice permanently profitable. If you own a solo or group practice, we're here to help you build a business that creates more time, makes more money, and serves more people. This is the Therapy Business Podcast. All right, Joel, I'm glad to have you on the show. How's everything going? It's going great. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm I'm pumped. When you reached out, there was a couple things that that stood out. Obviously, you know, you talked about uh positioning ourselves and pricing and all those things. And then as I dug into your website, I was like, oh, and he's a twin, which yeah, I'm a twin as well. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So do you work with your twin or is that uh is that not is it off limits for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

It's not off limits. So uh I have a twins twin sister. Um so you know, we're we're super, super close. She works in the film industry, so she's a lot uh a lot cooler than I am. Uh I work I work with people on money, and she's you know working with movie stars. Uh but yeah, and once I saw I was like, okay, twin, you know, twins you have to look out for each other. Let's you're gonna be brilliant. There's that's a given.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, right. It does something to you when you spend that much time at think around another person growing up, you just like all of a sudden, I don't know, see the world a little bit differently. Maybe I don't know what it's like. Do people ask you what it's like to be a twin? Because they ask us that, and we're like, I don't know what's it like not being like you I don't think that's how experience works.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Totally 100%. Yeah, people are like, doesn't it stink to have to share your birthday? I'm like, I've never had to not share my birthday. I don't know what I don't know what it's like to have your own birthday. So, no, it doesn't stink. That's my only experience, right? So, how did you and your brother decide to start working together? Was that just always the plan?

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Uh I mean, I think so. Like, you know, it's been 42 years now of being a twin, and uh and we always kind of were building ideas together and started thinking like entrepreneurs pretty young. Our dad is an entrepreneur, he did a he was actually in the film business, and and then my our grandpa was as well. So he had like a store downtown Chicago on State Street, and then one in California. So maybe it was just in the blood, I don't know. But we like started very early on thinking like, oh, we can mow lawns and you know, build flyers because dad has a laser printer and send those out. Oh, we could like we'd meet up with friends in junior high and like come up with how can we sell ads on placemats and give them to restaurants for free. So, like we were always thinking of stuff to do together to make money, and I guess we just kind of thought, why not why stop just because we're adults now?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I love that. You know, I'm my my story is very similar, just little since I was a kid, always just trying anytime I was like, I am I want money to to buy a PlayStation or whatever it was, like, well, I'm gonna go figure knock door to door and rake leaves or uh whatever it was. So there was always some kind of money-making operation. I just saw it as if I need to make money, I'll find a way to go make some money. And so um it's magical, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Once you realize like you can provide some kind of value to people and they'll pay you for it, and you're like, oh dang, I this is like ultimately flexible because there's always ways to do that.

What The Skyfloor Actually Does

SPEAKER_00 3:34

So 100%. Yep, there's always some some gap out there, and so well, aside from being a twin and all these things, tell me a little bit about your your company, what you guys do, um, and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah, I mean, so we own the sky floor, we call it, because and people are like, why the sky floor? It's a little bit I don't know if it's cheesy, but basically we're like looking at the the startup world, and you can get in on the ground floor of something, or the sky's the limit is supposed to be like the max you can reach. And we were like, well, what if that's just the beginning? Let's let's aim even higher than that ceiling. So that's the name, and in that spirit, we help our clients solve problems and get to their next goal or outcome. And so that sounds really broad. What does that mean? Well, when people come to us and they're like, you know, we hit we wanted to hit do another million in revenue this year, and we're not sure exactly where to start. Uh, they come to us and we'll build not only do we not have a niche of clients we serve, we actually don't have a niche of services we provide. So it's a lot of times it's centered around around a website and some, you know, usually something digital, it's a digital age, but it can span so many different things. If we can learn how to do it to help them achieve that goal, we're gonna learn how to do it. And then and then no sacred cows, right? We want to be in partnerships. If we get it wrong, I'm gonna raise my hand and say, look, that did not do what I thought, but let's move forward together, right? We can we can make this work.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah, absolutely. Just learn as you go. Um, I think it's uh I love that, and I love just the different ways you can serve people. Um, uh, you know, you and I were talking a little before we hit record about just the the niching down and you know, just that balance of of what it is, and you know, I think there's a lot to be said about working with a diverse group of of industries. Um, and I've personally found, and maybe you found this to be true too, sometimes the value I bring when I'm I'll have a prospect, somebody who's you know considering hiring us uh to work with them in their business and the consulting, and they're like, Have you worked with this industry before? And it's like, you know, we haven't, but sometimes I find that that's our superpower is we can we're not so close to it. We can ask some of the questions that might feel too obvious, or we can uh see things that maybe you can't see because we aren't super familiar with the industry. Um right.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah, if this was a text, I'd put the 100 emoji on that. Because it's like it's uh it's so true. I mean, do you really want the agency or the firm or whatever, whoever the creative that's done this a hundred times? And so when they come into your situation, they say, I know exactly what to do, and they never ask the right questions to find out who you are. Yeah, and the actual problem you're trying to solve, even as similar as it sounds to the last guy they worked with, and we get to come into those situations and say, ask great why questions and probing questions, find out what really needs to happen, and then apply like experience from all these other industries in maybe a creative way that someone else wouldn't think of. I think I think it is a superpower.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, I'm I'm with you. I agree. And I man, I think it's just like you were talking about. I think it's a great, great point that we don't want to lose sight of uh even if you do work with a certain industry multiple times, but just that every even inside of that niche, there's individuals and every business is every practice, every whatever is unique uh from the others. And so, what is what do you want it to look like? Do you want to scale to 10 locations or do you want it to just be a small one location thing? Um, what do you what do you want this business to become? Because there's not a right or wrong. Right.

Why Broad Experience Can Win

SPEAKER_01 7:00

And when we're talking about uh competitive advantage or positioning even and and pricing, like hopefully you can ask your client why should someone hire you over anyone else in the same zip code or whatever, you know, whatever their service area is. If they can't answer that question, which is often the case, you know, then I think it's my job to help them get there, right? It's get some strategy layer in there. This isn't just about making you uh a product. I don't want to do commodity work like that. I want to help you actually get like your business to where you want it to go. But so like that's all that's all combined, right? Like every person should have something a little bit unique about what they're offering the world. So so finding that out makes it interesting anyway, even if it is a repeat uh man, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Well, and so let's dig into kind of what you were just alluded to, which is that pricing and positioning. And so um I f I find with therapists, especially whether it's mental health or physical therapists, uh, occupational, all the above, sometimes that pricing piece can be um tricky. And I know that that's something that you're passionate about that you help a lot of people with. So, what are some, I guess let's just start with the common mistakes that you see or the common, maybe the way people view it that might be hurting them when it comes to pricing themselves. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

I mean, I think the number one thing for this type of service business, which is essentially right, a therapist, is is like just looking at the marketplace you're in, and then what I would call is like just vanilla pricing yourself in the middle. You're like, I don't want to be, I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb. I obviously don't want to be the cheapest, we're gonna find the middle of the road. And basing everything on that, I think it's just a bad idea. Like it's again competitive advantage. Like, why should someone hire you versus anyone else? And I think that really gets to the heart of what positioning is. It's to me, it's like who you serve and then what transformation do you provide, right? It's not it's uh why would this person choose you over anyone else they could they could go to? And I think if you can't define that, then you're gonna have a hard time charging the higher price.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yes. And so it sounds like you know there's probably that balance of like we talked about, niching down, but also just understanding what are the what do I really excel at? Or um how do you figure out what what that messaging looks like? How do you figure out what am I who how am I targeting that? I don't know if that makes my questions make sense, but um how does how do they where do they start figuring getting to that point where they have that clarity of what they're what they're gonna say, what they solve and who they're attracting.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Right. I think it's you have to uh you know identify who you like to serve the most and then what the transformation you're looking for is. I was thinking about this ahead of time because I was like, all right, how would how would I describe this to someone? So I came up with some ideas like you could uh you could say I work with high achieving professionals who can't turn their brain off, right? Or then you don't have to like pick one of these things, but I wanted to like fuel some thought if someone's listening. I help couples who've already tried everything uh and are deciding whether to stay or go. I specialize in teens and and parents and watching uh and the parents watching them struggle, right? So I'm gonna help bring connection there and help them work through that. Or I work with people who know exactly what their problem is and just can't stop doing it anyway. So like coming up with some of those, like something that it's not just a tagline, it's an ethos that you can then apply other business practices to, like what happens in between the client visits for customer experience? Like what kind of culture are you making if you have other uh counselors or therapists in your practice that that is making it more personal? Because this, I mean, sometimes it's just business almost every time business is personal, and especially if someone's coming for therapy, it is a personal business. So I think you need to get good at excelling at the personal part, and you can do that by answering that question who am I serving? What outcome am I providing for them?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

I I'll that's great. And you know, I I've I've uh fully believe in that. That I think sometimes we get caught in the trap of trying to speak to everything, like I can do everything, you know, I can help with this, this, this, this, this, and it's this long laundry list. Um I don't think saying, you know, I so for example, when I'm speaking to pain points in our business, it's you know, we we help practice owners pay themselves, finally pay themselves what they deserve. Yeah, um, yeah, that's our main main focus. Doesn't mean we don't help with getting out of debt or creating a you know, all these other things. It's yeah, but that just is what we've have found to be a huge pain point, uh, a commonality across a lot of people. So um that could be it sounds like what you're saying is a good place to start to figure out what's that what's a key pain point that you're seeing across most of your clientele, or at least the clients you like the most is probably right.

The Big Pricing Mistake Therapists Make

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah, what like lights you up, what gets you excited about who you want to serve more frequently. And again, I mean I'm a big and now this is ironic since we don't our business, the sky floor, doesn't have a target like this, but I'm a big believer that if you set that center pin and you're playing darts and sometimes you miss, so you know that's gonna be another client anyway. So, like you're not necessarily um limiting your your business, but by aiming at something specific, you at least have a story to tell.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yes. I mean, that's great. And and you don't want to water hose people with uh or fire hose people with just here's all the things we can do. And they're like, Well, you th you mentioned 20 things and two of them are what I'm looking for. Um they gotta be able to see themselves in it, right? When they go, That's me. That's correct. Yeah, I I'm I think it's uh very that's just really good advice. So that's the positioning piece, and then overcoming the the pricing part. Um, talk to me about you're you mentioned not falling in the middle. So um how do you recommend people go about even just starting with their pricing and figuring out what should what should I charge? How do I charge enough for the what I deserve?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yeah, and I think that's gonna be like difficult to answer in a broad sense, but I think some ways you can think about it or some questions you can ask yourself. I think of how can I unlock premium pricing, right? You can how are you onboarding new clients? And I kind of got at this a second ago. What ex what's the experience between sessions? Like, and if you have a team, how are you training and cultivating the touches that set you apart from what I'm calling the therapy mill down the street? You know, the practice that's just like we hire as many people as possible, we're not giving them any special tools, we don't have a culture, it's just you know, basically uh it's a local better help or something. Although I do want to I think it came to my mind that better help is sort of a case study about what positioning looks like, right? Like they're not like out therapisting ever anyone, they're they picked different variable variables to comp uh to compete on, like the ease of starting, maybe lower rates than you can get locally sometimes, anytime anywhere access, and then like having that company layer that that's an acts as a guarantee to the patient, at least that's how they feel. So, like you I don't think I I would recommend anyone to try to replicate that model, but you can see through that example that there's room to position yourself in a different way, uh, on different variables than might be readily obvious. So, like, how can you look at your own practice and say, well, I don't want to be better help, but what are the levers I can turn? What are the ways I can position myself? What audiences can I talk to that demand that higher uh private pay price?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Uh, that's that's great. Yeah, it's better help is you know, that's the looking at them as the example like you're talking about of they said, okay, here's a way we can serve people on a more of a mass ease, get people in where they can text with a therapist instead of uh going into an office. Um, most likely not what people are wanting to do that are listening, like you said, but maybe that's just a good way to say, okay, they were saying, here's how can we take this and adjust it to attract a different market? What can we do on the flip end of finding people who maybe are gonna are willing to invest uh more money in in their therapy and finding the right person? Um, and you know, and that kind of brings me to something which is a lot of people are stuck in that insurance trap. You know, some want to stay with it, but I've yeah, most practices I talked to are they wish they could move more to private pay. Um, this sounds like it could be the avenue to doing that of right attracting those people who are willing to pay out of pocket, is that right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah, I think so. Because like you're probably not gonna be able to convince, you know, the insurance industry, which has its very specific processes, that like the subscription model I want to offer is going to, you know, what how do you even code that? I doubt it exists. I don't know enough about that side of it, but I'm just doubting that it exists. And so what if you want to like develop some of those things that kind of break maybe that's even a good litmus test? Does it break out of the kind of insurance building billing mold? And then that might be a place where you go, okay, I can make this into an offering that I can't bill insurance for, but I can talk about this in person on my website and and make a pitch for why it's probably gonna serve you better long term, right? We're looking for that outcome again than just coming in and getting those uh billable appointments for insurance.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, that that's awesome. And you know, and and I know with physical therapy and that in adjacent industry, right? Um more has opportunities for those cash-based uh things they can probably introduce. Um, there's different services that they can they can provide that you know, maybe it do target a different demographic and a different market. Um, so that seems like a huge opportunity. And then that can bridge that gap from okay, once we build this up, then we could probably reduce the number of insurance clients we're taking uh and start to build that that balance. Now, both sides, mental health, physical, all of therapy, a lot of times get trapped in this hourly thing where it's uh I'm I'm charging for an hour of our time, and it's I I know that you are big on breaking away from that um and more pricing on value. Can you speak to that a little bit?

Finding Your Audience And Transformation

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, I mean, I don't think we just recognize in every other part of life, well, not every other part, but most other parts of life that we're not paying for the hours of anything. Uh I mean, time is valuable, I always say, but it is not money, actually. So, like one of my favorite examples, right, is you have uh Lexus is made by Toyota, and and they have a lot of the same uh chassis and other components, but you don't go in when that there's that premium Lexus price, and you you understand there's some more premium features, but you also don't go, I want to make sure that it took the the people who put this together the right amount of hours extra to justify this price, right? No, you don't do that because you're like, I want it to be quieter, I want it to be a smoother ride, I want the status symbol of owning the nicer brand. And so there's all these other things at play, or another favorite of mine is Rolex. Here's an even bigger example because now we have a$50,000 watch. Well, I can go to Walmart and buy a$15 one and they both tell time. So why if telling time is the proposition, why does one someone want a Rolex? Well, we all know that it's not about the telling time at that point. And you also don't go to Rolex and say, how many hours did it take to produce this? I just want to make sure that the hourly rate made sense. No, because you're not buying that, right? You're not buying the time. And so I'll it can be hard to think about our service businesses that way, but it's still true. Like if the honest truth is if that someone sometimes will build a landing page for someone uh that they need for a one-off campaign, and it's something I'm so good at I can do it in two hours, and they'll pay me a thousand dollars for it. Well, it's well worth a thousand dollars to them because we're expecting it to return tens of thousands of dollars. If I said the rate is five hundred dollars an hour, they would run away screaming this guy's nuts. And and so you it's just like I don't know if that helps anyone like kind of start to get out of that thinking of like, well, I've got this billable hourly rate. It does come down to that positioning because if you're able to help people see the outcome that you're providing, and then sometimes I think you have to package it a little differently, right? Like if you are talking about hours, they're gonna want to know that. So maybe for a therapy praxis, it's more about bundling a bunch of things together and it comes with a service level. I'm gonna check in on you once a week. I don't know, you know, there's all kinds of ways to like build something up that isn't just about the session, so you can get away from that feeling that it's tied to the the time, and then there bec there becomes the ability to charge something that would seem ridiculous if it was break broken down by hour, but it actually is more valuable.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yes, uh man, that's great. And you know, you're talking about the landing page. I think you're right. No one's paying for the hours it takes you to create it, they're not even really paying for the landing page if we're being honest, they're paying for the clients or the leads or whatever they receive from it, the sales. Um, that's what they're paying for.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

And hopefully I ask them the right questions. And then because I ask the right questions, they give me the answers and the cheat sheet for the proposal to say I understand what I'm providing to you and what you're gonna get out of it. And it just becomes a no-brainer for them to push that buy button. Now, if I come back and I just say you get landing page$500 an hour. Yeah. No, and they don't know what they're getting out of it. Yeah, they're those they're gonna just go on fiver up work, and that's why those places exist and are diluting that. But but people like us exist because we are bringing our experience expertise. We're not conning anyone, but we're saying we understand how to help you get to where you're going. And so we can sell that at a premium price.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yes, yeah, I think uh you're right. We're I we're so worried about being sleazy or slimy or conning people, and that's that's not it. People care about the end result, and you know, we're we're helping I look at it as we're helping people get out of their own way. Um, you know, if I call a locksmith because I'm locked out of my car, uh I'm what I'm paying for is them opening my car so I can get back in it. I don't when it takes them 10 seconds to pop it, I'm not like, hold on now. Um you know, this was 150 bucks. You need to drag this out for another two hours so that I can just you know swallow the hourly rate you're charging. No, it's right, I paid 150 bucks to get back in my car, not right. I want you to take it 10 seconds is much better than it taking you an hour to get exactly well, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Speed is actually one of one of a value point. Like speed makes it more expensive sometimes, not less. That's because if you want to get something faster, you get to use it sooner. That's better for your business. It's better for getting into your house again so you can have dinner or feed the dog. You know, like so it's it's there's a so many factors at play. And we often let just this like hourly time exchange notion limit us to that singular, that singular lever. And it's just there's so much more.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah, that that's great. And this is all um and sounds like it's just a mindset shift of uh the business owner, the practice owner is perceiving this differently. The the client side or the prospect side, most likely they're seeing what we're what what we're telling them. And so if we're pitching it as an hour, then they're immediately thinking, well, they're anchoring it to what they think is reasonable for an hourly rate, regardless of industry. I would imagine it's just you know, they're like, so you're saying it's uh uh what$200 a session and a session is an hour long. That's that's a ridiculous hourly rate, right? But ultimately it's no, like it's$200, uh, and we're going to solve X, Y, and Z. We're gonna work on helping you with uh rehabbing that knee or whatever it is, right? Yeah, getting you getting you back on the field if you're an athlete.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, and actually think there's a lot of maybe similarities, but I don't know if you run your business this way too. There can be some similarities though, between like maybe PT even or you got to make it work for your business. It's a it's a journey, right? Like you can't also just jump usually from the way you're doing it now, probably to like 100% of the other version without probably shutting the market down. I have a story on that if if we have time, but but like also if you do this, it allows you to be generous with your time and generous as the provider because now so for us, like we're very against nickel and diming, but that's because we charge really good prices that people know what they're getting, but we charge it prices that feed our families and then some. And so when they come with a month, let's say they're on a monthly agreement and they have something that's like out of scope, now not insanely. We have to have reasonable limits, but not insanely. I'm gonna just do it. And it's it blows people away a lot of times. They're like, where's the extra invoice? And I'm like, I'm not giving you one. Well, why? Because we're in a long-term partnership, it's okay. We're we're taken care of. And people just like being able to provide that, or being able to help a nonprofit for us that doesn't have the money. Well, I can do that because I'm charging premium prices elsewhere. So, like, it doesn't have to be there, can be altruism, there can be actually even more, I think, than the hourly billing. Because now you're not like sitting there depressed because you spent an hour you didn't get paid for. You're like, no, this is part of the whole system, uh, and the whole value I'm providing.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, that that's a really great perspective. You know, I think with a lot of mental health practice owners specifically, but also PTs on both sides, it's uh they meet people who maybe don't have the funds to pay out of pocket for therapy. And so they want, they don't want to abandon those people. They don't want money to be a barrier, but by charging a higher premium, by charging, you know, a higher rate, maybe they're they can set up a fund, like a scholarship fund to cover those who maybe can't afford it, um, right so that they can serve them still, but not undercharging across the board to where they have to they feel like they have to charge those people X dollars to to work with them.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Right. And it can even be a competitive advantage. I mean, you I'm not saying the you would never pitch this in a Robin Hood style uh thing, but like maybe you have clients who you know can pay the premium prices that you want to charge for a certain service or package or or um or level of what you provide. And you can even put that as a like some of those people are gonna love the idea that you're helping people who can't afford it. Like that could actually be one of the things that they're like, oh, I go here because when I give them my dollars, I know that they're helping people who are less fortunate than me, too. And so again, that becomes like a status signal sometimes for people who are wealthier, that they're part of a system where other people are being helped. And so I just get creative with your thinking, right? Like there's always a way to find uh something unique and that's a story to tell if it's something that you want to pursue. It doesn't just have to be a giveaway.

Unlocking Premium Pricing Without Insurance

SPEAKER_00 27:11

That's great. That's a I again didn't even think of that perspective of yeah, the the ones who can't afford it, maybe feel a sense of of pride being able to fund, uh contribute part of it going to a fund to help those who can't afford it. Um that's awesome. Okay, so uh I'm curious about the story you alluded to that you said if we have time. I I want to hear it because um yeah, share it with me.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Well, so my wife and I, one of the other businesses that we ran more early in our marriage was uh wedding photography. She wanted to, she studied photojournalism in school. It was like it was 2009. We got married in 2008. So 2009, economies down, she wanted to just get a regular job, no one was hiring. So we go, well, we can just do this. I have always been creative making websites, blah blah blah. I'll run the business part and and you we'll shoot weddings together. So we did that for about six years. We did over 100 weddings in that time off of like five or six hundred leads anyway. Wow, it went, it did a lot, it was it was fun, it did well fast, but we were, and it's package-based pricing, right? No one's like, How much is it per hour? So we started off at a price point that brought in a lot of leads, and we were like, it's time to to jump up. So we, I think at that point doubled our prices. It was something like early on, so it was 2000, we went to$4,000 for a wedding day. And all of a sudden, I'm not kidding because I wasn't big on putting the prices on the website because I liked like the the filter that it proved provided. And so, but we got crickets, the leads are gone like overnight. And and so about a month or two into that, I we halved it. So we went back to like 3,000 and and all of a sudden they started trickling back in. So it was interesting to see we actually pushed the marketplace that we were in specifically as Kate Miller photography a little past where it was comfortable, and that can happen. And so you have to be like flexible and see those signals and sometimes adjust. And in the end, by the by year six, we were charging, I think our average uh package was six grand and we were getting more leads than we could shoot. So, like you can see that sometimes you have to like it is a process and a journey. If we had tried to jump from two to six, we probably would have ruined our business.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Because it would have been like the people who we were shooting for didn't know other people who could afford that. There's lots of reasons. Yeah. Um but yeah, so like sometimes you have to like play with the pricing mechanics a little bit and figure out what how it works and where you're going, but that doesn't mean you you ever stop, like you probably end up further than you thought you ever could go. Just pay attention to those things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

That's great. I think that's um super gives almost permission to not for those who are maybe weary or nervous about raising their rates up uh to take it slow, you know, do an incremental shift and see how it goes. And then after six months, 12 months, however long, just then you jump it up again, jump it up again, maybe less, you know. If you're yeah to to me, I'm like if you're if you're busting at the seams, if you have a waiting list, that's usually a sign that it's time to do a rate, yeah, a rate raise, and then also forwards you the ability to have time if leads do dry up, you're not all of a sudden just just scrambling.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

And the reality is I think it can be hard for us all. I mean, it's a human thing. We think people are all paying attention to this, to the level where they're gonna see it and be like, oh, that's weird, or they're they're gonna be judging it or something. I don't know. But but the truth is that no one's thinking about you as much as you are, and and they're thinking about themselves, right? I mean, I guess the therapists probably know this. So, like, but but but it but it can still get be easy to get into your own head. So, like again, just to give permission, like uh play around with it, not frivolously, but know that no one's sitting there watching and reloading the website and they're going, yeah, what are they doing now? It just went up exactly right. They don't know, they don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

So uh so uh uh what I have one at least one more question for you. Um what's your opinion on because I know there's there's multiple takes on raising current client rates. So the ones you you have on board already. Uh are you do you include that in this, or do you feel like you know, maybe they get a discounted or grandfathered rate? Uh I don't know that there's a right or wrong, but I'm just curious of your approach to this.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Yeah, and I don't think there is a right or wrong. My typical philosophy is to have a grandfathered rate, at least for a time. Uh and but it kind of depends, like I maybe I'm kind of having a gut reaction to what I think if I were in a therapist's shoes, a practice's shoes, like what would I feel comfortable doing that? I mean, when it comes to our own business, sometimes we'll go through and raise rates, you know, to try to call out some of the lower end people in like a multi-year cycle of like, all right, we've collected this, these maintenance contracts, whatever's going on. It's time to like move on from some of these. Well, if they can't pay the extra amount, that's fine, it's a natural breaking point. So, like, but I I think I my gut reaction is like, ooh, do it, would I do that to my patients? You know, to so I don't I don't know if if uh if I have a definitive answer on that. Yeah, that's it's a case by case, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Like, that's right. Uh I was it was a little devil's advocate knowing that I I think it's it it genuinely it comes down to opinion. Um, I think it's really just a practice, you know, for me personally, we grandfather, we have clients who've been with us for years who are for the most part at the same rate. Once uh in I think once or twice I've had to go and bump people up a little bit, nowhere near our current rates. But right um I think probably the time with especially the therapy world, the time where I'm where I encourage people to maybe raise rates is if it's if they have a big team, and so they're trying to give their their therapists and clinicians uh pay raises. Yes, but if they're not raising client rates or their caseload is full of people who've been with them for years, then then they run into that issue. Now, PTs have it a little bit easier. This is the only time it's easier for them in that their life cycle of clients is just a matter of weeks versus a mental health therapist, it's like years, years, right? Um which most of the time is not advantageous because they're always trying to find new clients. Uh right. But all that to say, I I think it is just a case by case, and um, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with uh bumping people's rates. I just think it comes down to what people are comfortable doing.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Yeah, and I think for us, and I don't know, it probably doesn't have the same mechanism in the therapy world, but for us, and maybe it's the same for you, with our kind of maybe I'll call them legacy clients, because we have some people who've been with us for 10 years or 12 years. And it's like, well, a lot of times we're the work gets simpler because we're so used to what we do for them. The value hasn't changed, right? But like I don't even need to feel sometimes like I have to go and be like, it's time for that cost of living increase on what you're paying us. It's like, well, really, like the margin has increased and I still want to be available for you. So let's not make it any harder for that because I value this partnership. And but really, like, if we're looking at it from a business perspective, I'm actually profiting more now than I was 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yes. Yeah, I think that's great. And you know, I I guess it really does boil down to are they are they impeding on your ability to bring in more clients? Like if is it really hindering, or do you have because that's lower bar, um, do you have the are they really taking up much capacity in what we're trying to do? Um, and and also too, you know, what I found that the couple times I've raised the rates, it's always met with uh I even had one client that was like, it's about time. Oh, totally.

Stop Selling Hours Start Selling Outcomes

SPEAKER_01 35:17

I guess we're so like I and I can't stress enough, we do charge really good prices. I'm often on like a Facebook group, and people are like they're they're like saying, You charge someone this much for this service? That's highway robbery, and I'm looking at it and going, like, the last time I did that, it was 10 times that much. But um, but like we had we were on a call yesterday with a long-term client, and she said, quote unquote, I keep trying to give you guys money and you won't take it. And we were like, We'll take it. We're just trying to be realistic about what you actually need.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah, uh that's always the best, is uh whenever they're like, You you're undercharging, like right, right. Thank you. I wish everyone said that.

unknown 36:06

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Man, this has been so much fun just just chatting and getting to pick your brain. And uh I've taken a lot of insights away. Uh, how can people, if they need help? I know you said you do a variety of of services, so not just with the pricing and those pieces, but uh marketing, all those things. So uh tell me a little bit about how you can help and how people can get in touch with you.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I mean, honestly, like if you have a business problem, you're unsure of how you you can solve it, reach out and have a conversation. If I can't help you, I'll try to point you somewhere that yeah, where you can you can get to where you want to go. And you can do that at theskyfloor.com, which is our website. We have a blog there that I write occasionally, not as often as I used to, but there's some good ideas in there just from anything from very specific topics to just like business thinking in general, which hopefully inspires you to grow your business the way you want to. Uh, and you can subscribe as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Awesome. We'll we'll link those down below in the show notes. And uh, Joel, it was such a pleasure. I really enjoyed chatting with you. And uh, I definitely, if you're open to it, would love to have you back sometime. Thanks for joining us on the Therapy Business Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a practice owner that you may know. If your practice needs help getting organized with finances or just growing your practice, head to therapybusinesspod.com to learn how we can help.