Episode 0

In this episode of Pages and People, hosts Pete McGowan and Sue Hecht explore the intersection of faith, politics, and community through insightful conversations with authors Kaitlyn Schiess and Skot Welch. They discuss the importance of critical thinking, curiosity, and the role of the church in fostering unity and understanding in a divided world. The episode highlights the mission of Baker Book House and the significance of engaging with diverse perspectives in literature and life.  Visit our website @ Baker Book House - New, used, and bargain Christian books - or better yet come visit us @ 2768 East Paris Ave SE Grand Rapids, MI 49546

Books Mentioned in This Episode:

1. Ballot and the Bible by Kaitlyn Schiess
   In Ballot and the Bible, Kaitlyn Schiess offers a thoughtful exploration of how Christians can engage with politics, balancing their faith with their civic responsibilities. This timely book is a must-read for anyone looking to understand the intersection of faith and politics in today’s world.
   Buy it here
2. Unfractured by Skot Welch
   Skot Welch presents a powerful guide to healing the fractures in our relationships, communities, and churches. In Unfractured, he shows us how to move toward unity and reconciliation, addressing the deep divides in our society with both compassion and conviction.
   Buy it here
   Follow Skot Welch on his website: Get Unfractured
3. The Burning of Rosemont Abbey by Naomi Stephens
   In this historical novel, Naomi Stephens crafts a gripping mystery centered around the destruction of Rosemont Abbey. With vivid characters and a suspense-filled plot, The Burning of Rosemont Abbey will keep readers on the edge of their seats as they uncover dark secrets buried in the past.
   Buy it here
4. Specters in the Glass House by Jaime Jo Wright
   Specters in the Glass House is a hauntingly atmospheric story that blends gothic suspense with elements of historical fiction. Jaime Jo Wright masterfully weaves a tale of mystery, danger, and redemption that will captivate readers from the first page to the last.
   Buy it here

Upcoming Live Events can be found @ Events - Baker Book House

Transcript

Pete McGowan (00:00.034)
Hey, thanks for tuning into our first episode of Pages and People. This podcast is to give you some extra insight into life and what's going on at Baker Book House on East Paris and 28th Street. We just dropped this episode this week and we featured two insightful authors who are sparking some important conversations around here. First off, Caitlin Schaess, the author of Ballot in the Bible.

She joined us in this podcast to explore how scripture has been used and sometimes misused in American politics. It's a thought provoking dive into faith, voting, and what it means for Christians today. And the best part, ballot in the Bible is 30 % off right now on Bakerbookhouse.com. Don't miss this deal. Also Scott Welch, the author of Unfractured.

brings wisdom on building a stronger, more unified communities for the people of God. His book is packed with actionable steps to heal societal divides. And it's on sale for just $12 today at Bakerbookhouse.com. Grab your copy of Infracture today and start making a difference in your community. Listen to the full interviews here on this podcast upcoming.

And then head over to BakerBookHouse.com to get your copies while they're still on sale. I'm going to throw you over to Chris Jagger, our fiction buyer who has two more deals that you won't want to miss out on in the next coming week. Hey guys, let me tell you about a new book that's coming out really, really soon at Baker. It is called The Burning of Rosemont Abbey. It is by Naomi Stephens. She is an amazing author. This is set in the 50s.

which gives you really cool look at some really uniqueness of the post-war England. But it's got a fantastic mystery to it. I enjoyed every minute of it and I gotta tell you, I did not figure out who it was. I changed my mind several times and I still didn't get it right. So that was kind of a fun read. So go to BakerBookHouse.com and then tell the release date of 10-15.

Pete McGowan (02:10.252)
You can order it for 40 % off with free shipping. After the release date, it be on sale for 30 % off on the website also. So you really want this one on your TBR list. Jamie Jo Wright is one of the only authors I know of that can make butterflies creepy. They're beautiful, and yet in Specters in the Glass House, they are kind of creepy.

Some of the inspiration for the book is at Frederick Meyer Gardens and the butterflies that they have there in their beautiful scenery. If you've never been there in Grand Rapids, you should go. But this book has everything. Creepiness, murder, mayhem, and even some ghosts that are whispering in the background so you get to hear them. So if you have not ever read a Jamie Jo book and you're into a good mystery or good thriller, let's start with this one. You can get it at BakerBookHouse.com right now for 30 % off.

And if you get $25 or more you get free shipping with it so it's a wonderful, wonderful deal. So enjoy the book. Like I said, you might not want to read it in the dark.

Pete McGowan (03:26.094)
The mission of Baker Book House is to equip the church to live and grow in faith, guiding her to engage quality Christian books, product, and community. So Baker is a company really seeks to make available books and other resources across a broad spectrum of Christian perspectives. That means that everyone will find books here with which they disagree, as well as ones with which they agree.

Now honestly with most books I read, there is something in that book with which I just disagree or things about which a point maybe that I just have a different perspective. So reading those kinds of books challenge my views and if I allow them, they can prompt me to think more deeply about the topic at hand. Maybe it helps me to clarify the position I hold or maybe it helps me to see where I'm wrong.

Or maybe it just simply helps me to think about things that had not occurred to me previously. So one of the most important skills, I think, that we can learn is to think critically. Now, I don't mean to think negatively about topics, but just to be able to discern what's the basis or foundation of a view and how sound is that foundation. Because people come to conclusions based on a variety of reasons. It may be what was taught to them.

It may be what they've concluded from experience or it could be the result of study. Maybe it's just something that's been traditionally accepted by their community, whether or not it was explicitly taught. But I think another way to say this is that it's helpful for us to be curious. Being curious often means taking time to consider what other people believe on any given topic and why they believe it.

Not only can that help me clarify what I believe by either contrast or even by comparison, but it also helps me understand the other person. And when I can begin to understand the other person, well, that starts to move me toward loving my neighbor. But first, Pete and I want to let you know a little bit about who we are. co-host is Sue Hecht. You have been at Baker Bookhouse for five years now.

Pete McGowan (05:42.678)
And I just want to get to know you a little bit. Some of the things that I've learned about you in just working on this podcast and working together day to day is your empathy and your kind spirit. You're someone that's very approachable and I think you're going to be a great co-host on this podcast. first off, thanks for, being a part of this with me. I want to know what you do day to day here at the book house. Tell us a little bit about your day.

and what it looks like. You fulfill orders for e-commerce. Can you tell us about that? Thanks, Keith. And I do want to say thanks for being so kind and generous in your comments. I enjoy working with you on this, too. I think this is going to be a blast. And I hope our listeners will enjoy it as much as we've been enjoying it so far. Yeah. So what I do here at Baker Book House in working with e-commerce is help to pull orders that we have from various sites on the internet.

kind of pull them together, file, track them, yes, help fill them, and make sure that people are getting the resources that they're ordering from us. I enjoy doing it, it's a lot of fun. It's kind of like being a personal shopper for people. When it comes to books, mean, being surrounded by books is my happy place, so I enjoy that a lot.

did not grow up in a Christian home. We were a military family. We moved a lot. In the different places that we moved, I met a variety of people, but it really wasn't until I was in the middle of high school. We moved to a location where I became a Christian and met believers who were my age. Like, I had never met people like this before. So I started going to church at that point.

and started to grow in my faith. And frankly, there were family members of mine who just were not very happy about my decision to be on this faith journey. But like I said, it was making a difference in my life. And I went to college, got involved in a campus group that really helped me to grow personally. And then when I graduated, decided to go into full-time ministry myself and work with college students. So I did that for about 20 years.

Pete McGowan (08:03.286)
and all through this time I'm learning more about the Bible and I'm also realizing as I engage with college students that you know some come from really good Bible teaching backgrounds and some just didn't and just didn't really know much about the Bible much like what my experience had been. About 15 years into doing full-time ministry I decided to go to seminary to get more depth and breadth of biblical training because I was working on some projects to develop tools

Bible study skills tools as well as evangelistic tools. And I thought, you if I had more biblical training, I'd have more to offer to these projects. And when I was in seminary, I remembered how much I love being a student and was encouraged to go on to get a Ph.D. So when I graduated seminary, I went back on the field for about three years and then entered a Ph.D. program and did some teaching. But then.

there were some family issues that had come up and I just really needed to step out of academia for a while. And so I came to Grand Rapids and Baker Book House was a great place for me to land. And one of the reasons why I love being here is that I love the mission and the vision of Baker Book House to serve the church and provide resources for believers.

across a wide variety of topics. And what do you like best about your day-to-day job here? Well, I love pages and people. I love pages. I love books. I love books. I love the resources. love the kind of, it's like having conversations with different authors to hear what have they been thinking about for a long time and studying and what has impacted them. And I get to hear their stories that way. But I also enjoy the people that I work with here. have...

great colleagues. So it's fun to be able to work here. We do want to help our listeners get to know a little bit about us because they're going to be hearing from us with each of these podcasts to some extent. So P, tell us a little about your journey and how you were led here to Baker Bookhouse. I have been going to Baker Bookhouse since the early 2000s. So I was a customer for a long time.

Pete McGowan (10:22.35)
I found out about this great store because there were cheaper books here. When I was in Grand Rapids at Cornerstone University, which is where I got my undergrad degree, and I started coming in here and I developed some friendships with some of the key people. That was my first exposure. I did grow up in a Christian home, so from about 2002 to 2016 or 17, I was full-time vocational ministry. So I was either...

I started as a youth pastor, then I became an assistant pastor, then I became a senior pastor. So I've always had an entrepreneurial mind. And that is something I got from my dad who owned a small business himself for 35 years, owned and operated it himself. And I always thought I would like to do that. So I owned and operated my own small business for almost 10 years where I grew up in Belding.

and I had a shop there and loved it and loved being a part of the community and a central hub that people would come to day in day out. So now you are managing our coffee shop here at Baker Bookhouse, the Beanery.

And what is it that you like most about running the coffee shop? I love the interactions. I think a coffee shop is a great place for community to happen. And it can just be as a simple three to five minute conversation when I'm making your drink. I love interacting with customers.

I love finding out what they like and then crafting something they enjoy and maybe even saying, hey, have you tried this before? That's how I got you hooked on the spicy mocha here. yeah. yeah.

Pete McGowan (12:13.302)
And what is your vision for the coffee shop, for the Beannery? I would love it to become more of a meeting place than it already is. Baker Beannery has been here, my goodness, think at least 10 years in some context. I think over the years, some level, there's been a coffee shop here in Baker Bookhouse. I would love for it to become more of a spot that you go to instead of like...

I need to go shop for a book. I'm going to get a coffee too. And I would love to see people just creating community right within that shop. I would love for people to have to, I don't know, it's the place you go to other than work or home to find your source of community.

I think you're a great person to be able to facilitate that too. You're such a welcoming person and I love the way that you engage with people. For someone who's never stopped by the cafe, what would you want them to know about it that might entice them to come check it out? I really don't like it when coffee is complicated. I have had the experience of going into other shops and there's almost this phobia or fear of getting the order wrong or saying something wrong.

I, that is like so far from what I want you to experience when you come in here. You can even say, I want something sweet, but a little bit of coffee taste. And I can come up with four drinks for you to enjoy. I don't want it ever to be complicated. And I don't want anybody to feel silly for not knowing how to pronounce the drink. I think that pretentious coffee is a wave of the past and I think it should be enjoyed. I think it should.

There should be some fun in it and I should get to know you a little bit. If I'm making your drink, that's my hope is that I would know something about you when I make you a drink, but vice versa as well, just to know a little bit about the people who are here making your drink always helps solve that problem of, you know, feeling foolish for not knowing what to get. What about food options? Is possible to get a bite to eat as well?

Pete McGowan (14:25.194)
Yeah, so we do have fresh food. Really coffee is our hero here at Bakers Beatery. We're primarily a coffee shop, but we do also have quick grab and go sandwiches that you can get and enjoy here or take on the go. Everything is fresh, so nothing is pre-made. We're making it on the spot. It doesn't take long. You can get in and out of here in less than 10 minutes with a coffee and a sandwich to go.

We also do have some grab and go options that are a little quicker. We've got egg bites. We've got bagels. We've got breakfast bagels. Lots of quick options on the go and it should be fresh. It should be made just the way you want it. If you don't want something on there, we can definitely take it off. Okay. Some of my favorites are the scones and cookies. Yes. Not to mention the lemon poppy seed muffins. Yeah. we partner are my favorites.

So we partnered with Wealthy Street Bakery who have been in the community, the Grand Rapids area for years. When I first came to Baker's Beannery, I asked who had the best scones. I found a great place that's been doing it really well for years and they offer seasonal stuff. So it does change throughout the month, but they do have staples like our raspberry lemon scones and our cranberry almond scones are always, always here.

but we do alternate with what their seasonal offerings are. And they are a favorite of many here in the Grand Rapids area as well.

Pete McGowan (16:05.582)
In today's episode we have an opportunity to develop our curiosity. We're interviewing two authors who have a lot to say about topics that many people might not exactly be drawn to, but both however are very gracious and were a delight to interview. I came away from both of our conversations feeling encouraged in my walk with God and even hopeful about building bridges with others in our communities. And if you haven't already read the books we'll be discussing.

They might provide opportunities for you to develop some good, solid, critical thinking skills.

Pete McGowan (16:42.968)
both books. They were two of my favorite authors since I've been here at Baker Book House. And you can follow them each individually. They're socials that we'll put in the show notes later. But Caitlin and Scott were both just a breath of fresh air to Sue and I. We're just very excited to have both of them help us launch our new Pages and People podcast. Yes. So thanks for tuning in.

We'd love to get to know you as well. So please reach out to us. Our information and contact will be on the show notes as well. So if you have any questions or you want to see any authors on the podcast, feel free to let us know. Thanks for tuning in.

Pete McGowan (17:30.99)
First we want to welcome Caitlin Schess to our podcast. Caitlin is an author and a speaker. She has had her writings appear in Christianity Today, The New York Times, Christ in Pop Culture, Relevant, and Sojourner. Caitlin has THM in Systematic Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and is currently a doctoral student.

in Political Theology at Duke Divinity School. Caitlin is just a delight and we are here to talk about her most recent book, The Ballot and the Bible, How Scripture Has Been Used and Abused in American Politics and Where We Go From Here.

Pete McGowan (18:13.698)
honestly, when I think of politics, what comes to mind are our major political parties in our country. And that just is off putting for me. It's overwhelming. And I don't it's hard for me to approach the topic of politics, frankly. then I thought, you know, more broadly, the definition of politics, it has to do with activities and governing policies that help us to live in community. Yeah.

And when I think about politics that way, well, that seems more approachable to me. So how would you define politics? What's a good working definition do you think for that? I really like your definition. Let's even just start with looking at the word. The word politics comes from the Greek word polis that just means city. And so very broadly speaking, politics just means how do we live well together? It does go all the way up to

elected officials, the laws that govern our country, the judicial decisions that get made. But it also filters all the way down to much more local politics when city councils meet, when local elected officials make decisions about where roads are built and how different zoning questions can be made and local judges make very local, very personal decisions for people's lives. And it even then beyond that goes even smaller to

You know, I live in a neighborhood with people who are very different from me, religiously different from me, politically different from me, racially, ethnically different from me. And we have to have relationships and conversations that help us live well together so that.

When my next door neighbor, True Story, starts playing very loud music at three o'clock in the morning, I have to do some politics. I have to some conversations. We have to discuss together what kind of shared life we want to have because we share a wall. And so we just in our physical lives share things and what we believe is best for our communities comes up in conflict with each other and we have to work it out. And for me, that is all politics. And if that's all politics, hopefully then there's avenues for people to engage in it that are not just

Pete McGowan (20:11.522)
the big national stuff, the debates that get so heated, the stuff that just feels like entertainment, like it's not really about how we live well together, but on a much more local level, there's opportunities for us to have a healthier vision, I think, of what politics could be. So, Caitlin, how did you initially get interested in this topic and to the point now that you are working on your doctorate related to?

politics. I was a college student during the beginning of the 2016 election in 2015 and 2016 and I went to Liberty University. There were politicians on campus, there were national media, you journalists on campus that were asking us questions about who we were voting for and why and what we thought about what was happening. I would go to chapel three times a week. We would sing worship songs and then sometimes a politician would get up and speak. And then I went to seminary right after that and I kid you not, I fully thought that was political and messy and gross and I hated that.

I'm gonna go to seminary and do the holier thing and leave behind the messy political stuff. And then my first semester of seminary, the 2016 election was still happening. And I had all these peers who were gonna be pastors. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I fully went to seminary with no vocational plans, but a lot of my peers were gonna be pastors. And they were like, I don't know what to do. But something I used to think was a completely separate question from my vocation. Suddenly now it feels very relevant to my vocation, because it's splitting my church.

It's shaping people's theology. I'm watching it actively create idolatry in people's lives. And so I now feel like my vocation does implicate me in this, but I have no idea how to do it. And as a new seminary student who was first being exposed to, wow, our theology doesn't just get built in one day. Like we receive all these gifts from the church throughout history. People have asked these questions before. I suddenly thought, well, when it comes to politics and theology, they must have asked these questions before. And once I

started studying, I really couldn't stop. I just thought there's so much here for us to learn from. We don't have to reinvent the wheel, actually. We need to really think well about how Christians have been faithful in the past and what theological resources we have for this. And at some point I thought, I'm not done after seminary. need to keep going. need to keep studying because I think I've grown up in traditions that had some real amnesia about this. We've recreated the same mistakes, I think, in part because

Pete McGowan (22:24.216)
We haven't known what resources are available to us. One of the things I value so much about your book that I actually did end up reading cover to cover. First time I thought it, I thought, no, this book I cannot do, but now I've read it and I really enjoyed it. Like it was so informative and I think you did such a great job of clearly tracking for us.

progression and identifying pros and cons for various people who are holding scripture and politics. They're trying to hold the two together, sometimes doing it well and sometimes not. There are great resources in our history. And actually one of the goals I had for this book was a lot of my peers are looking around at Christians and politics and thinking there is no good here. It is only bad. The Bible has only been used as a weapon. It's only been manipulated. We should just get out of this entirely. And I understood that impulse, but also thought

Maybe our historical understanding is still too narrow. Maybe we really are still thinking only about the last 30 years of the church that we grew up in. And maybe there has been pretty serious failure in that time. And also there's more to the story than that. There are examples of Christians who have been really faithful. We just have not been faithful to tell their stories. You talk about how we handle scripture and how we study scriptures, but it's also handling conversations with other people in terms of the former. So handling

Scripture are there a couple of hermeneutical principles that Stand out that you want to help encourage people to start with these like pay attention to these things at least as first steps Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I would say is expect that every passage of scripture says something both to your personal spiritual life and to your public political life So that's the first thing I would say is every single time you're hearing a sermon you're reading scripture and community whatever you're doing

you're having your quiet time, you go in and you assume this will say something to my personal spiritual life and my public political life. And then the second thing I would say that if you look at American history in particular needs to be watched out for is pay attention to who is being addressed in this passage. We have a tendency to be incredibly selfish and like self-focused in our Bible reading and assume that it's all directly addressed to me and my country and my neighborhood.

Pete McGowan (24:40.3)
And don't pay attention to some of this is for Israel, some of this is for the people of God more generally, some of this is very contextual, right? Like instructions that are given to the people of God living under particular political circumstances are still deeply relevant for us, but they can't just be plucked out of their context and applied without any work being done to it, which is one way of saying pay attention to audience, but it's also another way of saying we need theology. We don't just need Bible verses. We actually need the witness of the church throughout history to help us understand them.

And then the last thing I would say is make sure you're thinking about the whole story. This is another way of saying don't cherry pick, but pay attention to is this verse that I'm pulling, whether it's Romans 13, let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, or whether it's Jesus saying, give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, or whether it's the Jubilee, I'm pulling this and saying, this tells us our economic policy, whatever it is, make sure that it makes sense within the larger scriptural story from Genesis to Revelation. It seems like you're combating some things that you heard.

Can you talk about some of those messages or conversations that you heard? One would be someone would come up and say, here's a Bible verse. It's the Jubilee or it's I knew you in your mother's womb or it's given to Caesar with his Caesar's or it's the mark of the beast in revelation. And they would be like, tell me what to do with this politically. And then the most common thing that people would say to me afterwards would be, how do I talk to the person across the pew for me? How do I talk to my

and to Thanksgiving dinner. And it was almost always Christians. Someone who actually shares so much hypothetically with me, I find it hardest to have these conversations with. And it tended to be people saying like, what do I do when on Facebook, here's a list of verses that someone gave. And I even, remember in the lead up to the 2020 election, there was a bunch of different like TikToks and memes that were all circulating around that were basically like, here's a short voter guide and it'll have a bunch of issues and it'll just have references. It won't even list the whole.

verse at all. It'll just say, it up, trust me, the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. And I was so frustrated with doing my own little, know, refutations of those piece by piece, feeling like I'm constantly addressing why this one verse doesn't mean this, or why this one verse doesn't mean that. And I finally was like, I think we just need broader help. Like, we can't just be constantly plugging up the holes and sticking bandits on things. We also need just a larger approach to how scripture is used in politics.

Pete McGowan (27:00.898)
But I also thought, OK, if I write something that's just here's a theology of scripture in politics, and it's all abstract because I don't want to get too into the weeds of any particular issue, we're not always asking, what about this specific immigration policy or what about this specific abortion policy or child care policy or whatever it is? So part of the challenge is it's always contextual. It's always specific. And so I thought we need specific examples. So I thought, let's go to history. I both think we need to learn what we inherit from our history.

We need something to hold on to. And I'm hoping in history we have examples to hold on to that might still really deeply relate to questions that we have now, but are distanced enough from us that hopefully we can at least pause before we get too heated. And then once I got into the history, it was like, this is so much more important than I even realized. Like, I really think we inherit more than we realize and not just inherit habits of reading the Bible. We inherit all of these past fights and where to situate ourselves in these fights. And we need some context.

to understand them well. And I hope that that both gives us that inheritance idea and also gives us some sense of like, maybe if I want to have a good conversation with someone about how Romans 13 applies, if I start with this historical example, we have something to talk about that maybe we won't get so heated about right off the bat and we can actually have a good conversation first. I've been really encouraged by how many people will tell me that have read the book. I went in with certain ideas about these verses and I've had my mind changed or I've at least

been more open to other perspectives on this. And it was, people often will point to the historical part of like, I would have come in pretty hot if you had had some specific current issue that you were talking about, but it did help me a little bit to pause and look at the history. I'm wondering if you could speak to a different posture for us to take going forward. What is a good response to what's going on right now in our current climate? Yeah.

I've been really shaped by the story in Genesis 20 of Abraham and Sarah. It's the second time that Abraham says that Sarah is his sister to try and get out of a messy situation with a king. But what I love about that story, I would encourage people to go and read it, is that part of what's happening in that story is Abraham mistreats this king, potentially causes him to be cursed by God by telling him Sarah is his sister and the king takes Sarah into his house and God visits him in a dream and is like, I'm going to come and curse you and your family and it's going to be really bad and everyone's scared.

Pete McGowan (29:23.904)
Abraham does that because he says when he's confronted and asked, why are you doing this? He says, it's because I thought there was no fear of the Lord in this place. And that's such a picture to me of so much of our political lives. When I assume, there's no fear of the Lord in this place or insert something else. I assume there's no compassion here. I assume there's no goodwill here. I assume they don't really care what the Bible says or even with non-Christians. I assume they don't really care about human life or I assume they don't really care about the health of our community or I actually end up

mistreating those people in an effort to protect myself. They'll be the bad guys, so I have to be the bad guy first. It's basically what Abraham does. And I think that's true in our larger political conversations. And I think it should be true, I mean it is true, in our conversations with other Christians. They're the people that don't care about the Bible. And so I go in already willing to misinterpret scripture and twist it for my own purposes because they're going to do it. So I already know what they want to get out of this. I'm going to go in with the same posture.

Whereas if you go in assuming there might be surprising agreement here, there might be something good here. The spirit of the fear of the Lord and the spirit of God might be there already where I don't expect it, where I assume it won't be. That's the different posture towards humans and it's a different posture towards interpretation. If I go in saying you're on another team than me and we will disagree, wait for the disagreement. It might come. I've been in lots of conversations where it does come and someone is mean and someone does mistreat me. But a lot of the time they don't. And if I go in assuming they will,

It will start off the conversation on the wrong foot right to begin with. And in the case of this story in Genesis 20, it's like it risked harming my neighbor deeply because I assumed that they would harm me. Yeah, I think that's part of what, again, as we've been talking about these topics to our tendency can be just to push away that I'm just tired of dealing with this stuff. I don't know. I'm afraid of the confrontation because I don't want to lose the relationship if it's somebody that I know. So one of the questions

We wanted to ask too is what's at stake if we just stay in that position of I don't want to engage for whatever reason. What's at stake there? Do you think? think there's kind of two levels to this. One is part of what's at stake is just the well-being of our neighbors. There are really important political issues that affect vulnerable people in ways much more existential and important than they do me.

Pete McGowan (31:45.93)
This is like fun political entertainment and game for a lot of us. For some people, it's their lives. So we should take really seriously the way that we live and serve in our communities. But then there's this other level, which is that like that is all true. And also, if you berate your aunt at the Thanksgiving dinner table to try and force her to vote away that you think serves your vulnerable neighbors, that does not actually create a better community. That's not helpful. It doesn't help anyone. It doesn't change her mind, probably. But there is also this risk.

that our relationships remain on a surface level because we think we're bracketing out just policy. We think we're bracketing out who to vote for or what policies to support. We're not. actually bracketing out really deep questions of what it means to be human, what kind of community we want to live in, what's ultimately true and good in the world. And I've known people who have said, I mean, constantly I travel to churches where they say, we just don't talk about politics. And I asked some questions and I talked to some congregants. And over time, what I learned is we kept it surface level.

in our preaching and in our relationships. Like we just, I didn't get into your life because you're a public school teacher and we have these fights about education. I didn't get into your vocation because you're a doctor that deals with women's health and that involves all these political questions. So I think partially what's at stake in our relationships is just the depth of our relationship and our ability to live well, even not just broadly communities that deal with all these political issues, but just this family, this church, this neighborhood. I don't want to give up.

the possibility of us having those kinds of conversations that are hard because they deal with these deep, important questions. But if we say they're just too hard, it's not worth it. I think to your point, we're not understanding what's at risk here, which is depth of relationship and depth of community. And you risk you risk it being broken when you get into these conversations. You totally do. But if you don't get into them, you risk it not existing at all in the first place, I think. When I hear you describe those things, Caitlin, I think, wow.

What I feel challenged about then is how small is my view of God in this? I really believe that God can bring about good for people, all people in community because when God said, you know, go forth and multiply and fill the earth, that means we would be in community with other people. And then he gives us different gifts that we need to exercise in community with other people. So we need to really

Pete McGowan (34:07.032)
pay attention to that. That's something that's important to God. And so, yeah, what is my part in that? Sometimes I think we just disregard the work of the Holy Spirit in this. Like if it was fully up to us to have these conversations well, to pass good policies and elect good leaders, and then on a very small level to just make it through Thanksgiving dinner or make it through family life, or if it was fully up to us, it would be an impossible task in a fallen world with fallen broken people. And yet the Holy Spirit

changes people's minds and convicts them of things and brings relationships about that feel impossible. I mean, I've seen in my own church people who deeply disagree have deep relationships over time. I've seen people change their minds about things that I thought they never would. They've been watching too much cable news. They're down a rabbit hole on social media. They're never getting out of it. And what I partially was realizing was I can't convince them out of it. Actually, there are people that I'm like, I have tried my best. It's not possible. But also I've seen the Holy Spirit do things that I was like, that's not humanly possible. And it wasn't humanly possible. It really did require

the Holy Spirit to do something I could not. And sometimes I'm operating in our political world. I operate in like church world, like the Holy Spirit's working. And then I operate in political worlds, like the Holy Spirit is absent. And I think that's not true. Well, we really want to highlight your book. We would love for for people to pick it up here in the bookstore or online at Bakerbookhouse.com. If you're looking for a sense of history and a sense of belonging.

I think a great place to start is the Ballot in the Bible by Caitlin Schess. Thank you so much for joining us today, Caitlin.

Pete McGowan (35:47.864)
Pete and I are here with Scott Welch, an author with Baker Publishing Group's Chosen Division. The title of his most recent book, a topic of our discussion today, is Unfractured, a Christ-centered action plan for cultural change. Scott has written several books and was the former VP of Diversity, Inc. magazine, founder of Mosaic Film Experience, and former co-host of the Radio in Black and White show.

Scott also is the founder of Global Bridge Builders, which is a worldwide consulting firm that focuses on issues that include diversity, equity, cultural competency, and inclusion. Global Bridge Builders has been working with businesses and churches for almost 20 years, but Scott has been working in diversity management for over 30 years.

Needless to say, Scott's book, Unfractured, draws upon decades of experience and insight gained on these often sensitive and sometimes difficult topics. So Scott, welcome to our podcast. Thank you. It's great to be here. Scott, like I said earlier, man, this has been kind of like a bucket list thing for me since we initially connected here at the shop. And you've given me some language to discuss these topics. And I love to just...

jump in with you and get you to give us a little bit of a synopsis about yourself and this book. What kind of led you to this book? This is just a reflection of my upbringing in so many ways. And the way that God designed me was I've always been in the marketplace, but I've always had a heart for the family. When I say family, the family of God. And so this brings together the years of experience that I've had working with organizations all around the world. But I always feel.

the tugging of Holy Spirit saying, what about the family? And so I knew I was being trained as I would go and counsel these organizations. A lot of times they're doing things and I think they're doing the best they can with what they have. But I've always believed that the body of Christ has the answer because we've got Jesus. In the scripture, everything we need to have to build community with each other, with how do we engage culture.

Pete McGowan (38:09.87)
It's all in there. And so I wanted to put some practical things together in Unfractured that would help and enable leaders and just everyday people to walk it out in a way. Like what does that look like practically? Your background's got you. Yes. You allude that you had kind of a bit a different background. You have quite a large extended family. So even when you mentioned the family, your family is a little bit different. Yes. Tell us about that. So my family has always been kind of the open house where, you know,

We would have guests come in all the time, and our families, it's already a big family, but we always end up being this surrogate family for other folks that want that kind of family, right? So there's oftentimes conversations like seven at the same time, and we're just talking with each other, and I always tell folks, our family, we don't need a reason to get together. We just like hanging out with each other. so...

That's the thing where we are so open to essentially adopting other members because we've never met a stranger. And then fast forward when, like in the book I talk about when my mom and stepdad said we're moving to Korea and I said, I didn't know what a Korea was. We're on a plane and I'm crying because I'm seeing my family here. How old were you? I eight years old. Eight years old. And here's the thing, it wasn't a city at the time. These were villages. And I was the only...

American kid in the village. That was it. Not one other kid because they considered what they called a hardship tour. So I just made friends with the Korean kids of the village, the adashi, the storekeepers and all the different people. And I think that really kind of was so foundational in terms of how I see family. And so when Jesus came into my life, I had a sense of family. I had a really good example of what family was.

So it really wasn't a hard transition because I've seen people love me and we couldn't speak the same language. My definition of family was very much affected early on. you know, was just kind of, this is book as a kind of a natural next step. And now just trying to equip other people with an idea of how, family should be. I was never, I was never taught to reach down to people. I was always taught to reach across. And so,

Pete McGowan (40:32.118)
It just kind of kept going, you know, that's kind of where it ended up. the current culture we're in, that is so other. I know. And it's sad to say that. It's true. But we have to admit it. It's not like that everywhere. And that's why I think inviting people into this way, it gives me a lot of life. It gives some wind behind my sails. One of the terms you used in the book and at the event that I heard,

And I just loved it resonated with it so much as who's who's not at the table. And you really talked about everyone deserves a spot at the table. Everyone deserves a spot in the room. So talk to us a little bit about that. Where did you even hear that? How did you come up with that? Where did that come into your vocabulary? The table is just such a beautiful metaphor for community. the scripture, we see so many examples where the word talks about a table. You talk about

the power of the table, it's a place of community in the family of God. We think we have the option of stepping away from the table and not coming back. If you're really a member of a family, you might argue, you might say things or whatever, but you come back to the table, right? Or at least we should if we're mature. I think sometimes because we may not look alike, we may have some differences of opinions.

But what happens is that we get to the table and we get riled up and we walk away. And we think that that's optional because really if we're going to be mature believers, we have to have the tenacity to come back to the table even though we may not agree with each other. I still am supposed to love you. That's not an option. That's a commandment. And I think we may not sometimes like each other.

But here's the thing, I think sometimes we are deceived into thinking that we have an option to walk away from the table of fellowship and we can just keep going. It's like God's like, sorry. What it really shows is that we are, when that occurs, it just shows the immaturity of the group. When you see division in the scripture, it's always coupled with immaturity. We forget that none of those things should be at the center, but Jesus should be at the center. And that everything that I am,

Pete McGowan (42:55.552)
needs to submit and bow down to his lordship. I'm African American. I love that, right? I love my sister who is from this country, that country, the brother from this country, that country. God loves that. He didn't say oops when he made us. He said wow. Right? And so it's those things. mean, being a father, being a male, being born into America, all those things are beautiful.

And so sometimes I think the rub is, I'm just, but you gotta be like me. It's like, but, but God never tells us to be like each other. He tells us to be more like him. He's the standard. Right? And so I don't have a right to have you, I don't, shouldn't, I don't have a right to require you to try to be like me. Let's all pursue him. It's one thing to be childlike.

You have a childlike face. Yeah, but you're you're being childish. God loves childlikeness. He's not fond of childishness. You were talking also linked with that the idea of keeping Christ central. Yes. There are four terms you start off with at the beginning of your book and they show up at other places and maybe you could explain a little bit to us those terms. Well, that's the gift that God gives us is family. But if we're tied into

our upbringing, our other things that kind of, and they really kind of can limit us. And God's like, hey, hey, look, there's your family right there. But we've been taught that our family has to look like us. I'm like, well, that's not true, right? And God's family is the mosaic. To me, it's Revelation seven and nine, every tribe, every nation, and every tongue. So the terms you talk about is how I really, I said it kind of came to me and Pete,

got me a coffee before we sat down, right? And I love the whole idea of the metaphor of pour over coffee. how the ideas came to me in terms of how do I want, how can I distill this? Where people can understand it. And I came up with Christocentric, ethnoconscious, and ethnocentric and Christoconscious. So we know that Christo is Christ. We know that centric means to revolve around.

Pete McGowan (45:05.932)
We know that ethnos is where we get ethnicity, but it's also culture, right? People group. And then we get conscious to be aware of. And so those are the four terms. And what I'm suggesting in the book is that we need to become Christo-centric. So Christ is at the center and ethno-conscious. That's what we want because God made us as beautiful as we are and the beauty is in the diversity.

Now, where we get tripped up is where we say no. Instead, I become ethnocentric. So you got people group as the center as opposed to Christ in the center. I tell you what, those couldn't be any further apart than the East is from the West. And so when you have Christ crystal conscious, that means that you are aware of God. But he is just another one of the voices as is your newsfeed and anything else, but he's not Lord.

When you have Christo centric where Jesus is at the center, he's everything and then everything that you that he made you, it comes through the lens of how he sees things. So it's always in the beautiful, beautiful part of it is it affords us the ability to be who God made us. Right. When you're ethnoconscious, you're saying, I'm aware of the fact that I'm this, I'm that, you know, I've come from this family and come from this country, those things. I'm aware of all that.

And God's like, yeah, that's good. The only thing is, is when we don't make him a priority. And so Christo centric is that prioritization of Jesus is Lord and everything else. it's not that it's easy, but everything else has to submit to his authority. But the scripture says his commandments are not grievous or burdensome. everything he tells us is far, far good. And this set it's that relational part that sometimes I'm like,

I think we make it harder than it really is. It's not that hard. We just want to say, we want to study it for a while. We have been given the ability to love each other as the Father loved Jesus, and that's in John 17. So we have the capacity. Now we have to consider the willingness us to love each other. And that's the work. Do you have any words of encouragement for people? How can they take, what would be some helpful first steps?

Pete McGowan (47:28.216)
How do we make friends with anybody? It's the same thing. You stripe up a conversation, right? Let's do this together. Let's have coffee. Let's have food. And over time, it's just fellowship, right? We grow together, but we have to spend time together. And so the opportunity is for the exposure just to spend time. And here's the thing. The beauty about communication.

is that real communication happens in real time. And it's not digitized. Like, there's only so much that texting can do and those types of things. But it's also the risk that you take in real time. And that's how relationships happen. You spend time with people and then before you know it, you're like, yeah. It doesn't mean you got to be all intense about it. It's like, Well, Scott, kind of a blessing for me at least, and just this conversation.

as you've extended my table and my family. thank you for that. Thank you so much. And my hope for just this podcast in general, everyone deserves to be heard, valued, feel safe. may that be so with your book, with your family. I'm just so grateful for your time and space and the conversation we had today. I'm really behind you and we just want to thank you for this work. And I know it's

It's more than just a book for you, Scott. There's lots of resources. Your hope is that the church would be truly a mosaic. we want to extend that out to our customers and anybody listening. Scott's local to the Grand Rapids area. And again, thank you so much for your time today. you for the invitation. Thank you so much. Thanks for allowing me to be here.