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EP 05 - Dr. Robert Paul - A Journey to Stronger Marriages - PART 2

• The River

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In this episode of Upstream, Chaplain Joy Tolle continues her conversation with Dr. Paul from the Focus Marriage Institute, affiliated with Focus on the Family. They discuss his book Nine Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage and the most damaging misconceptions that can undermine a relationship. Dr. Paul shares personal insights from his own marriage, the importance of teamwork, and practical steps couples can take to build a thriving relationship. Tune in for an honest and insightful discussion on strengthening marriages with biblical truth and practical wisdom. 

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:02
Unknown
Welcome to upstream. I'm Joy Toal, a chaplain with River Radio Ministries. We're continuing our conversation with Doctor Paul of the Focus Marriage Institute, with focus on the family. And we're talking about one of the books he's authored called Nine Lives That Will Destroy Your Marriage. In this book, Doctor Paul shares, which lies seem to be the most damaging to marriages in general, and one of the most important things we can do to keep our marriages healthy.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:48:17
Unknown
Doctor Paul then gives us a peek into his marriage and what finally made it successful. Now let's go upstream and continue our conversation with Doctor Paul. We know that he has coauthored several books. The dating of relationships with, Doctors Gary and Greg Smalley. Relationships are couples nine lives that will destroy your marriage, the truth that will set it free and finding ever after.

00:00:48:20 - 00:01:16:18
Unknown
So what I want to talk to you about now is, I in our last conversation, my interest was very piqued in several of the books that you had coauthored. And one of the books that I ordered is The restoring Hope and Integrative Approach to Marital Therapy. Since I encounter a lot of couples who are in crisis, and while we recommend them to focus on the family many times, sometimes they either don't have the resources or just don't want to go there yet.

00:01:16:20 - 00:01:48:26
Unknown
But I also recently ordered the book Nine Lives That Will Destroy Your Marriage and the Truths That Will Save It and Set It Free. And this is a resource that I've ordered for our chaplains. We have six chaplains here that will use and they can refer couples to. However, I've and I've just really started reading through it. I know it includes, several self tests that help spouses assess the extent to which their marriage has been affected by the nine lives, and those lives are like they lived happily ever after.

00:01:48:26 - 00:02:08:17
Unknown
One plus one equals one. All you need is love. I have to sacrifice who I am for the marriage. I have to meet my spouse's every other, you know, every need. The differences between us are irreconcilable. I'm going to make you love me. Or your love is. Your love is driving. You create me crazy or you win some.

00:02:08:17 - 00:02:29:11
Unknown
You lose something. Now you talk about the assessment and it helps identify, how your marriage has been affected by some of these lies and which is more pervasive or whatever. But in your opinion, which lie do you believe? Or maybe there are a couple lies that you believe are the most pervasive and destructive to a marriage? I know that's okay.

00:02:29:13 - 00:02:48:16
Unknown
We're expecting, and I start off by saying this yeah, yeah. That's okay. No, let me start off by saying this. The restoring Hope book is written primarily to helpers, okay? Not to the couple who's struggling. So that's written for people who work with couples and, to learn our model and how to apply our model to the people they work with.

00:02:48:18 - 00:03:18:22
Unknown
Nine lives is written to the couple themselves. Now, obviously a helper chaplain or whoever, is able to to, if they're familiar with it, can use it very effectively because they this was the one they would give to, their, the person they're working with. But this is really just directed for people in general. So it's hard to pick because, they're, they really are all very powerful and, and not everybody is some is dealing with the same one.

00:03:18:25 - 00:03:41:09
Unknown
Right. So so let me just start with the first one, okay. And they lived happily ever after. This is one that I'm, I'm pretty partial to because I was very caught up in this when I got married. You know, the idea is and our culture really supports us. The idea is that, you know, one of the primary reasons you get married is because you want greater happiness and greater fulfillment.

00:03:41:12 - 00:04:03:23
Unknown
And then if the marriage is good, happiness is maintaining and it's growing and so forth. However, if you notice that the happiness is fading, well, you begin to think that so is the marriage. And if the happiness is gone, so is the marriage. And I would say the probably one of the most common complaints that we see in therapy is I'm just not happy anymore.

00:04:03:26 - 00:04:32:26
Unknown
And the problem is that our culture really has been captivated by fairytale views of marriage. You know, all fairy tales begin once upon a time, and they end with and they all lived happily ever after, and that was that was absolutely my belief. You know, there was there are so many, our culture, our, our, our nation, you know, the Declaration of Independence, you know, the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

00:04:33:03 - 00:04:55:26
Unknown
So that is, you know, that's that's very pervasive in our culture. But the reality is there's no fairy tale view of marriage in reality. And it's certainly no way reflecting a Christian or scriptural view of marriage because we live in a fallen world. And, there is a lot of yuck that's going on around us and we are all subject to it.

00:04:55:26 - 00:05:23:26
Unknown
We're all impacted by it, and we were intentionally created by God on purpose, with purpose, to participate in the unfolding of his plan and to to do our part to help his ultimate purposes be fulfilled. So you got to figure in relationship, you're going to hit those unexpected twists and turns that throw you and will cause happiness, to feel hard to capture, hard to recapture.

00:05:23:28 - 00:05:45:13
Unknown
And then one of the ways that the enemy comes at us these days is with busyness. And we can get so busy and caught up and raising our family and caught up with our jobs that we just drift apart and and it and it doesn't. It feels like the happiness is fading, and it's easy to mistakenly believe that the relationship is suffering as a result.

00:05:45:13 - 00:06:11:00
Unknown
So one of the big changes for me was when I realized how much I had been captivated by the the romantic views of marriage that are often depicted on the big screen. And I realized that ultimately, when I was choosing Jenny to be my partner, I was not choosing my happily ever after partner. I was choosing my journey and partner.

00:06:11:02 - 00:06:30:25
Unknown
And this is the person that I walked through life with. Through all the twists and turns, good and bad. Yeah, right. Good or bad, come what may. Till death do us part that that's the. That's the deal. And we're going to face some tough stuff. We've lost the grandbaby. We've had a daughter have brain surgery. She had a tumor.

00:06:31:03 - 00:06:55:00
Unknown
I mean, we've had I mean, we've been through some really tough stuff and fortunately, we've learned now that those things that earlier in our marriage would have caused us to spin apart, those caused us to run to each other. And we we struggle with it together. When we pray together, we'll cry. Together we will. We will face the uncertainty together.

00:06:55:03 - 00:07:14:21
Unknown
And then when we hit those high times, in those great times, we celebrate together. But we go. We're walking through it through a journey that is filled with unexpected twists and turns and ups and downs and heartaches and and joys. And we're in it for the long haul with all of those that we figure out how to manage.

00:07:14:27 - 00:07:31:12
Unknown
I think it's important for couples to remember that you're on the same team. Oh gosh, you're not enemies of each other. There are, you're going to have things you don't like. But the fact of the matter is, you have to be on the same team. And I think a lot of couples forget that. You know, his job is her job is to make me happier.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:51:08
Unknown
My job is to make him happy. And happiness, I think and I think you alluded to this. It's a choice that you can make. I'm going to choose to not find my happiness in the circumstance, but in for us it would be our faith in Christ. And then, you know, I've made a choice to love this person even when it's hard.

00:07:51:10 - 00:08:10:07
Unknown
And, you know, I think I think that you you shared something that that actually is love and light. Number nine. The chapter is you win some, you lose some. And and the idea being this and I may have talked about this last time we talked, but, the reality is we are teammates and marriage is a team sport by God's design.

00:08:10:08 - 00:08:30:29
Unknown
And when you're on the same team, there's only two possible outcomes. You both win or you both lose, period. And if you can get that because the enemy wants you to, Satan really wants us to square off as adversaries. He wants us to fight. He wants us to get in the trenches and see each other as the adversary, because we take our eyes off of him.

00:08:31:04 - 00:08:47:22
Unknown
And, we we create this illusion like I had this one do. I mean, I've been touched by all of these, really, in some way or another where I figured, hey, it all comes out in the wash, I'll get my way sometimes getting get your way sometimes. Yeah. It'll all average out. Yeah. And that's a life from hell.

00:08:47:28 - 00:09:10:10
Unknown
I mean, the reality is, if either one of us walk away from any interaction feeling as if we lost, then the team loses because you both win or you both lose, period. And so I, I mean, when I walked away getting my way and, you know, dumb bobbed thinking, man, cool, I got my way this time. The truth is, I had a big old nail on my forehead and I just didn't realize it.

00:09:10:17 - 00:09:35:11
Unknown
And it just it's in the end, it's so bad because I could see that it wasn't a win for Jenny, and. And I just was deceived. And I'm over that. Focus on the family has, from what I understand, has helped, about a half a million couples strengthen their marriage in just the last year. So what is the most important thing a spouse or even a married couple can do on a regular basis?

00:09:35:17 - 00:10:10:29
Unknown
Well, a spouse can do for their spouse or you can do for your marriage. You know, that will keep it healthy. I think the simplest thing that you can do is realize that if you put your relationship on autopilot, you are set up to fail. It's amazing how common it is when you know people, when they're when they're courting, when they're dating, they invest a lot in, in time and energy and in being together and doing things together and having fun together and, getting to know each other and all of those things.

00:10:11:02 - 00:10:40:21
Unknown
And then we get married and it's like it's so common for us to go, okay, well, I got that covered now. Now let me go off and you got to build a career and I've got to build a family. We've got to do all these things. And you don't even realize that you've put your marriage on autopilot. But the success of the idea that that would be a successful strategy is about as consistent as if you threw a handful of vegetable seeds in the backyard and then said, okay, God, they're yours now do something and expect to have a productive garden.

00:10:40:23 - 00:11:11:11
Unknown
You know, it doesn't work that way. You got to turn the soil. You got to plant carefully. You got to make sure you water and weed. All of those are the things that that will create a really exceptional garden that produces wonderful fruit. Yeah, same thing with a marriage. You have got to invest time and energy. And if as long as you can just make that a normal part, this is what we gotta do so that everybody benefits me, you, us, the kids, our neighbors, the community, it can make a huge difference.

00:11:11:13 - 00:11:44:02
Unknown
And it doesn't have to be, like, intensive. An hour long every day can be five, ten minutes every day. Right? Really can be five, ten minutes. I mean, we say that we do an event called Resist the Drift and we talk about some research. We found that some of the most successful couples that we've been able to track, and that we've found through research, say that they invest ten minutes a day in conversations of something of significance that's not just, you know, the surface stuff for the, you know, the how do we do this, that or the other today?

00:11:44:02 - 00:12:05:06
Unknown
How do we get this done? Who's going to pick up the kids? You know, about something that matters to you? Ten minutes, not ten hours. You know, not an hour, ten minutes a day. We found research to say this. This makes a huge difference in a relationship. So I'm going to get a little bit personal here. You and Jenny have been married over 40 years.

00:12:05:12 - 00:12:44:16
Unknown
How how many? 43 years. 43 years. You said that there there was the lie of the happily ever after that you bought in. But were there areas? And I'm putting me on the spot here a little bit. Were there areas that you and Jenny felt that you needed to work harder on than other areas of your marriage? Well, the thing that that you need to realize, you know, it's weird how God moved me into marriage ministry as a career because, I'll tell people frequently that Jenny and I have been happily married for 14 years, or 30, with just those first three years that were really tough.

00:12:44:17 - 00:13:08:22
Unknown
And we had a lot of challenges. It was it was no, we had moments in there that were great. So I'm not saying it was all bad. We had some great moments, but we had a lot of really difficult times. And it is only by God's grace and mercy that we made it through and actually broke through. So yeah, I can relate in some way or another to pretty much all of those nine lives.

00:13:08:27 - 00:13:32:07
Unknown
Okay, but we have done some things. I can tell you what, maybe our biggest turnaround was in and I share it, always hesitant, hesitantly because, it doesn't I don't know that it relates to everybody, but but it was powerful for us. It was it was a game changer for us. I grew up in a family that you just talked pretty bluntly and and just put it out there.

00:13:32:07 - 00:13:54:09
Unknown
If something's bugging you. And, there was a lot of fighting and, you know, and I really got caught up as I got older and, you know, and the idea of fair fighting and, what I didn't realize was, first of all, that wasn't Jenny's background, and she didn't see her parents fight, and she hated it. And I and she basically credits me for teaching her how to fight, which.

00:13:54:11 - 00:14:15:16
Unknown
And first of all, I hate I hate to own up because her idea of fighting was not what I was, what I, what I had in mind. Yeah, but it was tough for us. And I didn't realize, how big a deal it was for her. And, maybe that she, 14 years ago said, finally got to the point where I said, I'm done.

00:14:15:18 - 00:14:33:23
Unknown
And, she said, I don't I'm never going to fight with you again. She's. I don't believe it. So unbeknownst to me, she when she wrote it on the calendar. Oh, I love and, a month late and we're talking her idea of fighting, not mine, as she considers things fighting, but I think it's just having a passionate discussion.

00:14:34:00 - 00:14:48:18
Unknown
And, she said that, a month later, I come home and she said, I want to do a get dressed up, and we want to go out and dinner and celebrate. I said, but, you know, it was the middle of the month. There was no anything. But she said, a month ago you told me you wouldn't fight with me, and I didn't believe you were capable of that.

00:14:48:18 - 00:15:04:18
Unknown
So I wrote it on the calendar and you haven't fought with me. And that is the biggest thing of all to me. I've been trying to tell you that. And, And I said, okay. Yeah, you've been saying stuff about that, but it was kind of couched in a laundry list of other things. So how did I know that was the biggest deal?

00:15:04:18 - 00:15:23:04
Unknown
So what happened was I actually really got to the point where I stopped fighting with her. We deal with stuff. We deal with it respectfully, with great, great degree of honor toward one another. And we deal with the stuff we need to deal with. But we don't fight with each other. We don't use fair fighting rules. We don't fight.

00:15:23:06 - 00:15:43:12
Unknown
And that has been probably the most traumatic issue for us personally. That has turned things around. Kind of on a side of that, would you say that that was probably the biggest factor in helping you? I don't know, you just said that I don't know whether it was a light bulb moment 14 years ago, but it was a game changer for Jenny.

00:15:43:15 - 00:16:01:25
Unknown
Yeah. Were there factors before that that actually helped keep your marriage going, or was it just we're going to grit our teeth and we're just going to we made a vow and we're going to keep it and we'll just grit through it. Well, I was serious about I mean, I was serious about wanting it to be better. Okay.

00:16:01:28 - 00:16:21:08
Unknown
I would say the biggest thing that made the difference for me personally was, when I realized that my goal in life was not to have a great marriage, my ultimate goal in life was to be more completely conformed to the image of Christ. Wow. Okay. And, and, and I just kept saying, okay, dad, take me there.

00:16:21:11 - 00:16:45:12
Unknown
What do I need to learn? What are the issues? Because I realized that, honestly, Joy, I've got no hope of pulling that off the side of heaven. So I got to keep my eyes focused on step by step, moving toward that goal, and, even even get my my eyes off of Jenny. I was I was for many years, the self-appointed Holy Spirit helper in the Perfecting Jenny project.

00:16:45:14 - 00:17:06:04
Unknown
And then and and I think a lot of spouses are. Oh, yeah. Because I had some great ideas. Hey, man, she she's a work in progress, but she I mean, she just did this, that and the other, and God finally busted me one day and he said, okay, Bob, I'm going to make a deal with you. It'll be okay with me for you to focus on the mess on Jenny's plate the day yours is perfectly clean.

00:17:06:06 - 00:17:29:25
Unknown
So I heard that loud and clear, I got that, I said, okay, so, not the side of heaven, right? You know, and and I got it. I got I got plenty to do on my side of the equation. And that has been, when I made that change quite a number of years ago. That has been something that has helped us move forward, even through some dark times, because I kept saying, okay, this is going to be okay.

00:17:29:25 - 00:17:51:01
Unknown
God, where do I got to go with this? What what are you trying to do with me? And, you know, knowing and you know what? You what are your desires here? Lord's here. And that's been such. If you or someone you love is struggling in their marriage and need help, I want to encourage you to get connected to our chaplain team here at the River.

00:17:51:08 - 00:18:04:03
Unknown
We can pray with you, share helpful resources, and encourage you with the reminder that God has committed to your marriage and it's success. To reach a chaplain, visit River radio.com and click on Connect.