Screwworm Is Back: What Every Cattle Producer Needs to Know | Dr. Chris Womack | EP. 74

The screwworm is officially back on the radar, and cattle producers across the country are asking what it means for their operations. In this episode of Registered Ranching, we sit down with Dr. Chris Womack to discuss the return of the screwworm, how it impacts livestock, the risks it poses to the cattle industry, and what producers need to know moving forward.

We break down the history of screwworm eradication in the United States, how infestations occur, warning signs to watch for, prevention strategies, and what the industry is doing to monitor and combat the threat. Whether you're a rancher, veterinarian, livestock producer, or simply interested in animal health, this episode provides valuable insight into one of the most concerning livestock pests in North America.

Join us as we separate fact from fear and discuss what the return of screwworm could mean for the future of the U.S. cattle industry.

🎙 Guest: Dr. Chris Womack
🐂 Hosted by Registered Ranching
🤝 Sponsored by Ag Gear

Be sure to like, subscribe, and share this episode with fellow cattle producers and agricultural professionals. Every rancher should be informed on this important issue.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Saddled up for episode number 74. Welcome back to the Registered Ranching Podcast. And uh we called this a year ago. We called that this podcast would happen again. I'm gonna welcome back into the studio for the second time. And over the same thing. Dr. Chris Wamick, welcome back to the Registered Ranching Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Thank you. And this is registered, not regular ranch. Not regular ranching. I'd heard this referenced as the regular ranching podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

We're probably some regular ranchers anyway.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

There are some regular ranchers, but I I I there was a little misnomer there, which gave me a chuckle. I did I did appreciate that. Um I am Chris Walmuck. I'm back. Tucker, you and I talked about this a year ago, and and we said we were going to revisit it as things progressed, and here we here we are. Um I want to start by saying that that um I'm not a government employee. I am not involved in in policy making. Um I don't I don't I don't work for an academic institution, I don't work for the government. I am a private practitioner, veterinary medicine, um been in practice for 34 years, trying to be kind of retired right now. Um but I'm also a producer and I raise I raise cattle, sheep, and goats. Uh my family and I have for uh I've been a veterinarian for 34 years, I'd like to think I'm a rancher for 61 years. Um so this topic uh I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I would I would like to think I have a better than average work and knowledge of the parasite, the history of the parasite, how we got rid of it, um how we've maintained the United States and all of North America and Central America clean for almost 50 years, um, and why why the pest is has come back. Um and again, that's uh I'm not an expert, but um I will give you I would like to think that I have above average knowledge about it. Um I'm gonna tell you I will answer whatever questions you have with what I believe is the truth. Uh if somebody can disprove me, that's great. I'm I'm I'm I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

But anything that I'm gonna answer you your questions with what I feel is the truth. Deal. Fair enough?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

And for those who are listening, if you've been living under a rock and don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about the screw worm. Screw worm is a uh fly that lays larvae in open wounds. And that larva eats live flesh, eats its host until it dies? Uh or is treated?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Correct, yeah. Uh the the the the significant thing is the the screw worm female fly is attracted to a fresh wound, that's correct. She deposits the eggs adjacent to the fresh wound. Um the larva hatch out and they must feed on living tissue. Unlike a blowfly that feeds on dead tissue, the screw worm larvae have to feed on living tissue, which is significant. Yes, the the first very different the first fresh wound that an animal has in its life is at birth, it's it's umbilicus, it's naval cord. Um so if you could imagine if the fly gets in the umbilicus shortly after birth, a little baby, it's not very far into their abdomen, and the next step is their liver, and they get dead pretty quick if you don't treat them. Pretty quick. Yeah. As high in some of the deer populations, they claimed as high as 80-90 percent mortality in fawns due to screw worms. Wow. Yeah. So you can imagine a a sheep or goat producer. Oh, sure. If they're not if they're not on top of them, and some of these big big acreages where they're spread out, if they are unfortunate enough to to lamb or kid during the the fly season, you could have significant mortalities. Calves too.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I mean it seems like the cattle industry, and maybe I'm just more plugged in, but it seems like the cattle industry has rung the bell pretty loud as far as ag industries. Have the others been doing the same.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I would I would tell you my experience has been no. Um and again, we're we're involved with TSCRA, right? Um which we've been as an organization, the alarm was sounded in uh exactly in August of 24. Uh uh group of us were in Panama and we were actually having dinner in August of 24 with a man that used to be the president of the Panamanian Cattlemen's Association. And he very matter-of-factly said, Oh, by the way, the screw worm has escaped the barrier zone, the buffer zone in Panama at the Darien Gap. By the way, by the way, and it's in Honduras. It's like, oh wow, nice dinner conversation. I wanted to vomit. Um and since then, uh we have been trying to sound the alarm, trying to educate people, make them aware that this is a potential. And um I would not want to say I told you so, but unfortunately, here we are. Um and and just to be bring everybody up to date, this is June 15th. Um the first the the index case was in Zavala County, and it would have been June 5th, I believe. Um since which which great kudos to to the producer that we both know uh for recognizing it number one, and number two, reporting it. Yes, and that triggered a series of events that um is is important for everybody to be aware of that reporting triggers, yes, it it triggers some movement control of animals, but it also triggers the release of sterile flies, which is the workhorse of the the control and ultimately eradication program. Um I teased the man um about having a calf born the first of June. You know, if he was a better manager, he shouldn't have had any calves. And he told me that unfortunately he had half a dozen or so heifers that a bull got in with and bred them. They didn't know about it until they started bagging up. And so he had segregated them into a field so they could keep an eye on them. And and again, uh a blessing in disguise, if you will, because his his hands were able to, you know, observe and and realize that something was wrong. Uh he came and investigated and they found my iasis, they found the maggots in the in the navel of a three-day old calf. Uh the the USDA report says it was three weeks, but he told me specifically that calf was three days old. Yeah. Um, if if if you think about it, if he hadn't had a little management mistake, when would that have been identified? Um and for the people in in Zavala County in South Texas, there's a lot of income derived from deer hunting. And the the the does are just now starting to fawn.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

If if he didn't hadn't have found it the first of June, when would it have been discovered? Would they have found buzzards circling dead fawns, or would the coyotes and feral hogs have eaten the carcasses and you wouldn't have known anything until when? You know, so again, it was a it was unfortunate that we had the incursions, but you're also talking 50 miles north of the border. Right. So that means in a three-day old calf, that means that the fly is endemic. It was already established in that area. So how how much longer would it have brewed? Or moved north. Um before they got action taken. So I mean, again, in good nature, we ribbed him about being a bad manager and and he had a few choice words to throw back at me just because we've known each other a long time. But but that was a that was a fortunate mistake, if that if that makes sense. Yes. Is that fair a fair description?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

You you get where I'm coming from. I do, yeah, a fair description, because I think it would have been you know, there was a lot there was some talk all along social media of not saying anything if you had.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Which is a terrible idea. A terrible idea. Terrible idea. Again, this is proof perfect right here. He may have saved at least a fawn crop for his and his neighbors' ranches by reporting it and getting action taken. Um and I mean they they should buy him a beer for that too. Because I mean, not to be melodramatic about it, but if you think about it, legitimately, he could have saved this summer's fawn crop.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Right. Because they're dropping flies there.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

They're dropping flies, they started dropping flies twice a week um immediately almost. And uh, we were down there Thursday. Yeah, today's I don't know what today is. I don't even know. Monday is Monday, yeah. We were there, we were there Thursday, uh, and they they actually had some ground release boxes. Oh dropping by vehicle. No, no, it's a static uh box that they hang between some oak trees in a in a kind of a little mot in the shade, and they they put the pupa in there in the pupil form and let them hatch. And then it's kind of it looks kind of like an egg crate, and uh as they hatch they get their faculties about them and they they fly out. Um they also have a a way that they can meter the hatchability. They have little they have a uh a hundred little wells that they put a pupa in, and then they they calculate the hatchability of of the pupa that they remember they brought these pupa from Panama in an ice box. They they chill them to arrest their development, bring them to Moore airfield, some of them go in these ground release chambers, some of them go in the airplane and are released by plane. But the ground release gives the USDA people uh uh an opportunity to meter the effectiveness of the or the hatchability of those pupae. And they said consistently with those chambers it's 94 to 96 percent hatchability, which is better than I thought. I mean, you think about it. You grow them up in Panama, you irradiate them so they're sterile, then you chill them, then you put them on a big plane, and they bring them to Moore, which is Panama to Texas, is about a four and a half hour flight, four-hour flight maybe direct to Moore. Uh, and then they they brought them up to Zavala County and dispersed them up there. So um with a 95% hatchability. Yeah, which is which is impressive. I mean kudos to our our our colleagues in Panama at CopEg that are doing I I reached out to them yesterday and thanked them personally since it's it's now in my county. My house, my house, the clinic, and two of our property, family properties are in the quarantine zone right now. Ooh. As of five o'clock Friday afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

And I want I I want to get to that, but I don't want to jump over the fact that somebody may not know about this screw worm, see may have seen a lot of information that's probably not true or probably not all true.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah. Yeah. But again, that's a problem we run into, is misinformation, which is just as dangerous as no information.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Right. And that this uh that this fly has been here before. Correct. And for a qu for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Correct. Maybe maybe hundreds of years. Yeah. Um it was it's a it's a it's a tropical parasite. It likes warm and moist, doesn't like cold and dry. Um so historically, if you look at it, you pull up some of the old maps, um the distribution is um kind of I-40 and south all the way to the northern half of Argentina. That was the historic prior to 1950s, that was the distribution of the parasite.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So in the Great Plains during the summer, yeah, it's possible. You think about it, if the if the buffalo were migrating north for the summer, grazing, where'd they come from? Texas. Right? Probably brought it with them. Yeah. Makes sense. Brought it with them in favorable years. Again, it's not always favorable, but there were incursions from the endemic areas, Mexico, Central America, North, or if you're in if you're in South America, uh, Colombia, Brazil, South to Argentina, not all of Argentina is endemic, but the northern half of Argentina is endemic. So same kind of deal. The reservoir, the the stable population is in the tropics.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

But incursions in favorable weather, it goes north and south. So we had there's some old military reports uh mid-early 1800s of of uh army mules getting infested and dying with with myasis. And the officer had to, I saw a copy of the report. Wow. This officer had to justify to his superiors what happened on an army mule, and it was a strange maggot infestation in the sheath. Didn't know about it until it was, I mean, think about it, there's some pretty vital stuff up in the sheath. And if the maggots start growing up in there, it doesn't take long to get in his abdomen, and then he's done. Um and uh he said they had to institute a uh procedure where they had to cast all the all the geldings and examine their their sheath and penis. Wow. To make sure that but this guy, I mean, think about it, you have to, you have to, it's like calling your dad and say, hey, I wrecked the truck.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, you know, telling the superiors.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, had to tell the superiors that this mule died because they weren't aware that that it had maggots in its sheath. So significant. There's some old, we may have touched on this last time, but there's some old reports of when the Spanish conquistadors came to Central America. I think we did, but you'll have to remind me. And they they conquered indigenous peoples tribes and they branded them. Oh and the the the slaves died from strange infestations of of worms uh associated with the brands. I mean, again, that's all that's all pretty subjective type uh hearsay, but I mean it makes sense uh disregarding smallpox and stuff like that. But but sure enough, I mean, think about it, they created a wound on these people. They were um probably obviously they were conquered, so maybe they were warriors, maybe they had wounds themselves from a fight, and here we go. So um been around a long time. 50s um they uh a really intelligent, insightful group of scientists came up with the sterile flight technique, um, initiated, initiated it over in Florida, successful, got the isthmus of Florida cleared. Us here in the Southwest said, hey, we like that, let's try it. Had a grassroots funding campaign of producers funded it, the initial uh construction of the facility. Uh and then the feds and the state, you know, ponied ponied up money. And that was the more down at more. Yeah. Uh they originally they started up uh Menard and then went to Kerrville, and then Moore. There was a uh ARS was in Kerrville just like it is now, and they did a lot of the initial research and figured out how to to rear them in a mass mass forum, and then started Florida, came to Texas, successful throughout the the Southwest. Um officially beat it from the United States in 66. Well, I was born in 65, and I remember it, so it wasn't gone. Uh we did we did push it back south of the border, and then favorable weather patterns, just like we've had this this spring. Yes, they had incursions from Mexico, and I can remember as a little kid uh in the 70s, and uh about to about 78, 79 is about the last time I remember anything. Um really 72 is when it really cropped up really angry, and it was a year, supposedly a year like this, where we had a really moist, had a mild winter followed by a moist spring and early summer. And if you look at the weather patterns, we've had monsoonal flow from the southwest to northeast for a month and a half, and this is June. I mean, that's a that's a August-September weather pattern. Sure. So that's I think that's part of the issue at hand right here.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

It has to be as far as moving them correct, moving those flies to the room.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

In the environment, and what's what's happening? We got more jackrabbits this year than I've seen in a long time. Oh man, jackrabbits and rats. I've seen unreal. Think about it. I mean, they got plenty, plenty to eat. We've had y'all are fortunate. This country looks great. Driving up, it looks good.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Um, so you got an environment that's conducive. Um, got lots of babies born in the spring, right? Um and wildlife, people don't think about wildlife being a vector, but they are gonna be they're gonna be significant uh as a vector going forward. So would they be the largest vector going forward? Uh uh reservoir, yes, I think so. Yeah. I I mean it'd have to be. Wow. Think about it. You can't do much about them. You can't control their breeding season. No, we can those of us that have heeded the warning, um we we've changed some our breeding seasons. I've changed my sheep and goat breeding seasons uh to to to lamb and kid in the cooler, cooler months. Um we we took the effort to pull our billions and our rims up, which is hard. You gotta do something with them, you gotta warehouse them. And for a mature billy goat, a fence is kind of a suggestion. So we we actually moved ours from the Slacker County to Concho County. We moved them 70 miles away where there are no goats. Um so it's doable. Um, how many people leave their bulls out year-round? A bunch of them. Yep. Unfortunately, they're gonna be affected more than those of us that can control our breeding seasons.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

What can you do to manage? You know, as a as a manager of a of a of an operation, what can you do going forward? Because this isn't gonna go away all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah, that's the next that's the next question I've been having from a lot of folks is are are we gonna be able to control it where it's at now and just make it to where it's incursions that are jumping over the border, or is Texas gonna be, are we all gonna have to be looking for it?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Again, I told you I would answer the questions with what I believe is the truth. Okay. Um I don't have a crystal ball. I would like to think with um if everybody's on board, if we report the cases, if we adhere to movement controls, that doesn't mean you can't move them. You just have to take a few extra steps uh with inspections and treatments. Important point. Important, yeah. It's not a quarantine, doesn't mean now and forever. Yep. It means until we get them identified as being free and clean, and then they can move. Um they can even move interstate to most states. Um each state has their their own the ability to write their own regulations.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

And if I think Canada maybe said something.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Canada put a moratorium already. Yeah. Um we also put on Texas cattle. Yeah. We also put a more we're we're you United States is not shipping anything south. We can't export cattle to Mexico or live animals to Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yep. That came, I think that came about last week. I don't know how long that's gonna be in place, but um what were we talking about? I forgot. That truck driving down the road kind of got me confused. What what you know? Yeah, how long we can control it, I think. It's gonna be it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be all hands on deck, it's gonna be everybody cooperating. The the fact that I failed in my prediction of when it would get here is is perfect because I would have bet you any amount of money it would have been in Texas in August or September of last year. So the efforts by the by the USDA right now, Texas Animal Health Commission, um people are complaining. Oh, how did they let it get here? Well, they did a hell of a job of of slowing it down. And they were playing catch up when they started. Um so uh Secretary Rollins was confirmed in what February of last year? Yeah. She hadn't had that job for a year. Admiral Smoyer, um, Dudley Hoskiss, the the under-secretary. They weren't confirmed until September, October. Yeah. Uh so these guys are busting their butts trying to get stuff done, and they're playing catch up, you know. Um there's retrospectively, you know, I can I can criticize what what happened and why it happened. Um but the I mean we can beat that horse to death. The the long and the short is uncontrolled, unregulated movement of livestock from and people from south to north. And there was multiple opportunities in the in the chain of events that could have taken place and could have controlled it. And the most glaring in my mind is that isthmus of Tuanapec in Mexico. They could have they could have shut her down. That's the that's a little narrow, narrow spot of questioning. It's about 120 miles wide. Yeah. Panama's 60 miles wide. Okay. Uh and Tuanape, that's where back in the in the um late six, well, it would have been, it would have been uh late 70s, early 80s. We built the we built a plant. USDA built a plant in Tijuanapec. You coupled that with the one in Moore, the one in Tawantepec, and they got Mexico, northern Mexico clear.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Okay. Uh okay. And so that's where the one is now that they're retrofitting.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Uh yeah, close, right in there.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Right in there. And that's a fruit fly facility, the way I'm understanding. They're supposed to be. That's what I understood. That's they're supposed to be retrofitting it. Um Secretary Rollins said Thursday in our meeting that uh the nuts and bolts are supposed to be complete by the end of the summer. It takes time to grow a brood. It takes time to grow and establish a brood of of breeding flies. You have to have flies to sterilize. So you have to have the you have to have the the boy and the girl to make babies in order to have pupae, in order to irradiate, in order to do the job in the environment. And a lot of the people right now that are complaining real loud and saying, well, we could do this, we could do that, we could do this, we have these other technologies. Um, they they may very well be effective technologies that sterilizing the flies, but you have to have the flies. They got to come from somewhere. We can't ask the USDA in CopEg in Panama to say, hey, y'all are operating it at max capacity right now. We want to take 25% of that, 50% of that, 10% of that, and go and and experiment and see if we can grow our own population. Right. I mean, does that again do that? People don't think about that. They're complaining and they're they're beating the drums about, oh, we could do that, we could do this other technology, we could we could do this faster, we could do it more efficiently with smaller, multiple smaller facilities than the big, the one big one that they're proposing to build in and more. Um, but they they don't they discount where the flies are coming from. You gotta have flies to make that work.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

And some of those technologies are 90% effective. I don't want a risk of 10% uh fertile flies, you know. Remember, I don't know if you remember seeing my little slide that that took from took you from one female fly to a million in 63 days. No. Yeah. If you think about it, if one female can can lay 200 eggs per setting, 200 eggs, half of them are boys and half of them are girls. If that 100 females from that one, all of a sudden she can lay 200. Yeah. And the the life cycle is about 21 days up here in the north, 63 days, you can end up with one fly to a million. So, you know, put that in your pot and smoke it for a minute. It's gonna taste bad. Um that that's where people uh well meaning, I'm and I'm again uh smart people, and I'm sure their technologies are are are valid that they discount worth growing the flies. You have to grow the flies in an extremely biosecure environment. Yeah. Because you, by definition, you have to have fireble flies. And what if they get out? Right. Um I've been to the facility in Panama and I've seen the biosecurity measures. And I've I've uh it's you have to see it to really understand what's what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

So and it's a nuclear facility too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 28:19

Uh cobalt, cobalt 60, I believe, is the isotope that they use. Um, I mean that has to be shielded, and and uh again, it's not a it's not like a nuclear reactor, but it still has a significant amount of radiation.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Um whenever so they got northern Mexico cleared out in the 80s and 90s, yeah, 80s.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

And it was effective in the other it took us a minute to get cooperation from the Mexico from Mexico. From Mexico. And then once they figured it out, they're like, oh yeah, y'all are gonna come do this? Yeah, come on. And then the the other Central American companies countries said, oh, hey, we count, you know, can we have some of that too? And again, they they they they got it down south of Tuanape, down into Central America. We we shuttered the the facility and more. They were still crunching them out in in uh Metapa, I believe, is where it was. Uh and then leapfrogged and did the the Panamanian facility, which has been, I think, '94 is when it was constructed, and then Panama was declared free in 2001, 2002, something like that. Wow. And we beat it back down south of the Darian, the border with Colombia, and it's been under control.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Now how's that? And this may be a dumb question, um, did the collaboration kind of quit there at the Darien Gap?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Um My understanding is that that no. They were they were still producing the they were they for Well for countries from South America, like were they when they were they wanting to pitch in and try to get rid of that fly or were they uh uh again it was never yeah that was never successful uh even negotiating uh um will it be now? I don't know. For y'all, for your generation, I'm gonna be done.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Uh I'm not gonna I'm not gonna because it took them fifty fifty years to get to get it down there from back to the area end. We have different technologies now. We have different things that we can use that are gonna be helpful, but we're gonna have to retrain people to manage.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah, almost typically two generations that have never correct, correct. And probably three now that like the third being the young guys that are brought in.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I'm old enough to remember treating them as a kid, but I was a kid. I just did whatever you know dad said. Um I wasn't making any management decisions. Yeah. But the management decisions back then were centered around mitigating the impacts.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

It is it's interesting how getting rid of that screw arm the last 50 years you were really allowed people to get away with none like basically no management. Yes, yes. It that it's allowed people to do that. And I've never thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yes. Uh I uh I'm gonna give you for instance. I had a man call me the other day.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

About regular ranching?

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Uh no, different guy. Different guy, not the regular ranching guy. This was a local client. Um he called and he says, Hey, we had a good spring. I said, Yeah, we had a good spring. He goes, I got lots of grass. So I went to the auction and I bought some some pregnant cows. Quick turnaround, right? You got plenty to eat, quick their bread already, you don't have to worry about a bull. And he goes, This was last maybe I don't know, Friday or Saturday. And uh he said, Some of them are bagging up already. One of them's springing pretty heavy. So you're gonna calve next week or so. Summer calving. And uh he goes, What do I do? And he was an older guy, and I said, You do what you did 50 years ago. You did what we did when I was a kid. You watch them, you're gonna need to you're gonna need to dip navel with iodine, and it wouldn't hurt to give those baby calves a shot of either ivomectin or or uh dormectin just as a preventative measure. But dipping the navel with iodine, what do they what do they do in Brazil and Colombia and Argentina right now? The people that are Forever, that's what they've always done. Yeah, the people that are successful, there's lots of big ranches down in there, right? They got lots of help, they got lots of cheap labor. Yeah, but the ones that are successful, they calve them up in traps. They have people on top of them and they dip their navels at birth. So think about that. That's the way it used to be.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Um, so you're right. That's and this guy, you know, he's like, Man, I I I had a bird's nest on the ground, had plenty of grazing. You go to Sell Barn, buy some bred cows, calm out, either sell pears or strip the calves. And I mean, but his investment, he loses one or two, he's done. Yeah, yeah. You're not gonna recoup from from that. No.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

No, you won't.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Um I had another another client that um earlier in the in the spring, uh, after we had started getting good rains, he had some friends in Oklahoma that were still really in dire straits, dry. And he bought 150 nannies, bread nannies. Um, well, he suspect they they run the billies out year-round up there, and he bought them and he he I talked to him Friday, and he said, Hey, some of these nannies are already starting to bag up. He goes, What am I gonna do? And I said, get you a big big jug of iodine, and uh you're gonna you're gonna have to buy some alfalfa hay, you're gonna have to put them up in the trap. And I I mean he's got the facilities to do it, and he's he's punchy enough. He and it's they're his, not the ranches. That's his boot, is he gets to run some goats on the side. So he's gonna be you're gonna be invested in that. Um and he's he can do it. He's he's a hand. He's a hand. He can he can do it, but that's not what he had planned on. He he thought this was gonna be a passive investment. And uh we could we could you know we could cut some couple of different couple of different cuttings of cat of uh Billy Kids and sell them in the fall.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

So it's changed a little bit now. Changed a lot. Changed a little bit. So whenever they had I mean Panama was free for 20 years. 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Before that, before that breakthrough. Before I mean a biological barrier where we had the one, as I remember, the one facility.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

The only facility left was there in Panama making like something like 25 million flies a week.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, 25, 30 million a week.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

And that was to hold that was holding them.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, yeah. As long as you weren't having you were having control of the movement um of animals and people. It's a little old narrow thing, you know, and they had it, they had their their government is called MEDA, their equivalency of our USDA.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

They had inspectors that were um you know, livestock inspectors. They were inspecting the transit of animals from south to north. Okay. Um CopEG, the the facility that manufactures or produces the flies, they have their own inspectors that if a rancher sent in a submission, they would actually go to the that and have all the dozens of guys on these little motorcycles, and they drive around the country and they would go to your facility, your farmer ranch, they would pick up the samples, they would help you treat the animals, and then once they were confirmed that it was a screw worm, then then Copeg would have an aerial release of flies in that little you know, specific area. Yeah. Uh and that worked well. Um when I asked him when I asked him what happened, we were we were there, we went to Copeg in April of this is 20th. April of April last year, April of 25. Um you went to Panama? Yeah, we went to Copec and we got to see the facility and we asked them, you know, hey, how did this happen? Why did it happen? And it was uh multiple factors. Uh COVID set them on their ear, uh, with the inspectors having to stay home, both for Mita and Copeg. They had some supply chain disruptions and production disruptions and making the stern flies. Then uh the previous administration opened the borders. They said when people started flowing through we couldn't do anything. And they couldn't control people, they couldn't control animals. Wow. And and then you had that little generational ignorance too. People weren't looking for it like they were. Um and then it got across into to Central America, some of those countries had been without it for 35 years. And again, legitimately, you have a generation of people that don't know anything about it. Never had to look for it. Um they're talking about some some ecological ecological changes in the fly. And they they they claimed that uh down there, you know, sub-equatorial, uh the the life cycle went from 21 days to 19 days. So it speeded it up by three days, which is significant. If we go back to that one fly to a million in 63 days, you know, we can get there shorter than that. Okay. So um again, it's kind of a perfect storm.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Um and it broke through that biological barrier. Do you do you remember what year that was? 23, I believe. 23.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

We were there in in August of the 24, and it had gotten to Honduras. Okay. So COVID was the 20. And a new administration started. The migration of people and southern south to north. So again, perfect perfect storm. Um, and then it just think about it, Panama is a bit narrow, Central America is a little wider, the isthmus of Tuannepek is actually a little narrower, and then Mexico is big. Yeah. You get to the you get to the the border with the United States, I don't know how many thousands of miles it is, but it's a bunch. From the Gulf of America all the way to California. That's a big that's a big border. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

And real so really our their opportunity, they did it sounds like they had a really good opportunity, or we did, to stop it right there in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah, that's my what do you call it? Ismus of Tawanape.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

It's that little narrow spot down at the bottom of the bottom of Mexico. Uh that's my opinion. I mean, it's easy for me to sit here and tell you that uh application. There's there's factors involved in that that you and I can't even begin to perceive. We have ideas. Um but legitimately, if if if if that if if the efforts would have been concentrated then there, it could have been done. It would have required all the movement from south to north to be stopped and or controlled, inspected, treated before they moved out of that that infested zone. All the flies from Panama would have been diverted right there, and that whole area could have been inundated with with flies, but you'd have had to stop the movement of the livestock. Um that's what the people need to understand here. Yes. Are the movement controls they told us they weren't gonna impede commerce, are they? Yes, they are. There's gonna be a little temporary pain associated with that, but the the control of the animal movement out of those areas is imperative. We need to they can still move, we just need to either treat them andor treat them and inspect them, but they need they need to be inspected at the very least, and inspected and treated would be my preference.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Um that's gonna there's some issues with slaughter animals and withdrawal times. Oh right. Um I'm I'm I worked with some some sheep shipments last week that people were trying to go to Florida, and um apparently talking to the Florida authorities when whenever the animals get to the border with Florida, whatever the status of the county of origin is, then that day, is what's applicable. Well, we processed them on Friday at midday. I had CBIs already written and they didn't announce they were planning on hauling them that night in the cool. Um they didn't announce our county being infested until 5 p.m. So if those animals would have already been on the road when they got to Florida, the state, the status of our county of origin would have been infested and those animals would have had to been turned around. Wow. So the owner said, well, we're not sending them. Uh he had to he had the ability to to warehouse them and keep them on feed, he has them on feed already. Um so he had the ability to warehouse them for a little while until some kind of agreement between Texas, USDA, and Florida, we come to some common uh doable. You can't they said we'll give them Ibn A. Well, they're going to slaughter. So they need 30-day or 28-day withdrawal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Are they gonna go to Florida for 28 days? And somebody gonna warehouse them.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Again, that's I mean, this guy's this guy's animals could, but what if you're going from a cell barn? What if those were fresh kids or lambs coming out of a cell barn? You're not gonna be able to take them. You're not gonna be able to haul them from here to Florida and warehouse them there. You'd have 50% more quality. Yeah, they'd they'd be done. Yeah. So and not from screw arm. No, no, no, just from shipping stress. Yeah, yeah, and and weaning stress and that kind of thing. So there's some stuff that needs to be worked out. Uh is it doable? Yeah, I I I think we can work it out. It may be it may take a little bit, but I think we can I think we can work some kind of mutually agreeable procedure. Um I had gone through and inspected all those animals one by one as they were coming down the chute and we were putting ear tags in them and we were spraying catron spray on ear tags because we just created a wound, which was effective treatment. But Florida required a a more systemic treatment, which would have been ivermectin injectable. Not a not a doable thing, and then again that that withdrawal. time is what what got the challenge yeah yeah that'd be the challenge um so you know the the USDA Texas Animal Health Commission all along they they don't want their their mantra was that they did not want to impede commerce right and and and unfortunately there is gonna be some impediment there has to be and right is it it's not now and forever people need to be aware that that it's not now and forever but um you know um it's it's we can get around it it's just gonna take a little doing and some some level heads some some critical thinking uh some rational thinking um to get it done yeah I feel like the smoke has kind of cleared a little bit since we've since when you and I met a week and a half ago or a week ago. Yeah yeah the boy the the you couldn't think see through the smoke uh last it was last weekend last week so nine days eight days something yeah uh and we I mean this is important we both agreed that we needed to revisit this topic because things have changed so so much in a year yes so um K Moss man what else do you want to know what else well this leads me to one of my favorite segments of the podcast okay it's called the Aggear hot seat you've already kind of been in the hot seat I feel like I'm kind of sweating already yeah but I've uh thanks to Aggear they sent me a couple shirts sweet and um I've got two of them both of them I've got a green one and a red one for you to choose from so so that one's a little more maroon is it is that what you're wanting which would be it'd be a little better for you to pull for a for a a for an yes and this is the uh stockyard red stockyard plaid look at that sweet tryout fantastic if you had the Ag Gear shirt on the seat wouldn't be so hot because it keeps you is that what it is yeah well I'm we're this other unmentioned brand is just what was clean and what was in my truck I did I did change shirts before I came up here I didn't change my breeches or my boots but uh thank you well then thanks to Ag Gear that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Yeah use discount code Tucker Brown that's all caps no space use discount code Tucker Brown get 20% off online try out some Ag Gear. So the got a couple questions for you okay from the audience a lot of them are the same questions so I may yeah I may change them just a just a little bit uh one of the questions I wanted to attack first is there are a number number of people that say this has been your this has been here for years and we called it the bot fly.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

That's incorrect. We do have a bot fly yes and they feed typically on necrotic or dead tissue uh it is the the the significant difference between the screw worm and a bot fly or a secondary screw worm is that the new world screw worm must feed on living tissue. And that's not to say you can't have both in a in a an animal with a new world screw worm infestation they could have some dead tissue around the edge of that thing and you could have both bot flies and screw worm flies in the same wound but that's a pretty progressed wound. Yeah there'd already be some dead flesh in there there's got to be some dead flesh they're they're they're getting to be pretty bad when that when that progresses to that that stage and another one that I've seen people confuse it with is just a grub. Like they're like they used to put coke bottles on no that's incorrect that's right that that's a that's a cattle grub. Hypodermobus how about that I remember the scientific name of that one for whatever reason that's some useless minutia over in the back of my brain um could that when those so think about that um again back in the dark ages when I was a kid that was a common it was a common thing and then we had Ivamec come out the bottom you're saying the grub the grubs yeah real common I mean you could go to the sale barn and in no say the end of August September September October is when the the grubs were popping out in this part of the world you could see old bulls with hundreds along their back um if if it was still warm enough and those things popped out well it creates a wound and they could have screwed they could have screwed um in in Panama I was there a couple weeks ago and was asked to go look at some cattle up in the mountains that had a condition called torsolo I said well torsolo sure I'll I I have no idea what you're talking about and well you have to go and we'll see them and they were their bot fly grub whatever you want to call it and it was similar um except that it was direct injection of the of the infected larva and so everywhere they were bitten they had a grub. The old cattle grubs here they call it the heel fly because they bit they bit the the the cattle in the early spring on the heel uh and then it migrated through the body up up around the spine and that's where they erupted these cattle had some of them had a hundred little lesions all over their body wherever the the they were bitten and the larva was injected is where they formed a lesion and it was similar you could I have videos you could pop it yeah you popped them out but when when they popped out they had to come back and they had to treat those wounds with a powder because they were worried about the the screw worm infesting those things so they wanted me to tell them how to fix the their torsolo and I was like I I don't know anything about it. I've never seen that um but it was significant um uh I I could see where it's and you think about it man that the the hides on those animals where those grubs erupt that's a scar so those hides are not worth a darn oh true I mean that was one of the things here if if you had cattle going through the auction and they had grubs that you'd get an automatic dock because the hide was gonna the hide value was nothing.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Yeah I never thought about that yeah yeah uh we kind of touched on this and you can touch on it as quick or as long as you want to what is the range that this screw worm can affect what uh right how far how far north again like we talked about before it depends on weather conditions.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Right could it get to to Canada in a truck it could you know they say that below 60 degrees the flies activity diminishes dramatically and then 40 degrees uh you can forget it yeah the the soil temperature gets that they have to feed on the live tissue they have to go through three larval stages and then that third larval stage falls out has to burrow into the ground and it pupates for a week or so and then it emerges as a fly well if that soil temperature they said below 40 you can forget it that that larva won't won't develop that's why they can chill them and stand them all okay they're still viable ship them here warm them up and then they they they pupate out and for those who are in South Texas hopefully stays there recommended treatments if you find it if you find it if you find it in any of your animals well number one you need to report it. Yeah um I again I can't I can speak in generalities because I would have to be talking I would have to have a valid veterinary client patient relationship of course to to give direct information to somebody on treatment. Does that make sense? So you need to call your veterinarian but if one of my clients called me uh if I found one on my property on my animals um you collect a sample for submission and the county agents are supposed to have the submission kits now so if you think you found one call your county agent call your county agent call your veterinarian call parks and wildlife call texas animal health commission but um like the index case he he collected them in a syringe case he didn't have a an official unofficial submission vial but he just he said he got about 30 or 40 in a in a syringe case and took them to the vet called took them to the veterinarian but first thing is you catch you you collect some maggots from deep in the wound you need at least half a dozen or so deep in the wound not around the edge because like we said you could have um a secondary blowfly infestation they're gonna be around the edge. Okay. So you need to go deep in the center of the wound collect some then you need to do whatever you can to get the maggots out. If that means when I was a kid my dad would take a balinar and make a little loop out of balonir and and dig them out and and drag them out of the wound. Catron spray the the screwworm spray uh those kind of uh tincture iodine straight iodine anything that will kill those maggots and help help drag them out when you drag them out don't leave them lay on the ground kill them um if you have to put gasoline if you have to burn them if you had to pour alcohol spray them with ivomic poron something kill them don't leave them alive on the on the ground yeah um because then they could be they could be third stage and they could pupate and then reinfest your environment then I I would recommend an injection of dectomax or dormectin dormectin injectable dormectin um is the dormectin the the drug that's in dectomax yeah dormectin is the drug okay yeah like saying ivermectin okay is it i is it brown label ivomex is is dormectin yellow label dectomax i mean you know dormectin dormectin is the molecule that we need to use to kill them and that gives you it's it's labeled and approved in the United States Dectamax is the brand name is approved for both treatment and control of uh infestation ivomax ivermectin is labeled or uh um it's not labeled but it says emergency use authorization for prevention okay okay so a baby calf dip its navel give it a shot it doesn't have maggots yet give it a shot of ivomectin and and it's it's effective as a preventative but once you have an infestation you need to use dectomax or glormectin okay there also a lot of them are sick think about it they got a nasty wound yeah uh they're inflamed it hurts so I usually give uh an anti-inflammatory you would have to have that from your veterinarian you'd have to have a prescription for that is that something like uh flunux and megalamine um I also administer an antibiotic you know la200 penicillin exceed something some kind of antibiotic that would be effective in the soft tissue wound um I myself I like I like oxyten I like LA and something like that um there's a new product a topical called fluoronolir which is a pore a poron exalt is the brand name uh the Merck product yeah yeah yeah uh it's got a lot of promise but I don't think it's okay to use it on a little b one but it's a poron it's a poron so I I don't remember I have to look at the label it has some some age requirements or weight requirements I'm not I don't I don't remember I haven't I haven't ever used it and I haven't looked at it uh it's a prescription product as well but it has a lot of promise uh as being an effective treatment without having to give them a shot um again the poron dewormers right now they don't have they don't have emergency use authorization so um we would have to stay with what's what's approved or authorized right now.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

I had somebody ask me um I felt pretty good about answering questions on social about screw worm as much as I've been able to talk with you and and a lot of other really knowledgeable people on it.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

One that I didn't know about on the drug side was um was if and you may not be able to answer will because long range lasts longer will it prevent longer no I I would not use long range um it's not approved and also I the the way that thing is released I don't think it's gonna be effective I don't know that but I know it's not approved. Yeah um so I would not I would not be able to script that just because it's not on that list of emergency use authorization. Sure. But no use what use what's working. What's yeah and again what's what's what's been vetted if you will what's been determined to be effective in other countries is what's on our emergency use. And there's a lot of other products in the pipeline right now that I I think will have I think the um the list of approved products is going to be ever expanding um it's you know there's not gonna be a magic bullet the flies are gonna do the sterile flies are going to be the workhorse but there's going to be some other tools that are going to become available that that I think um will be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Oh do you see any uh state border closures uh in the near future Tucker I I again I started by saying I don't make policy uh I don't begin to predict if I if I did we need to get some futures trading going which would be inappropriate uh I I I that's a question that I that's not for me that's above my pay grade um I can't even speculate on that fair trying to think of some of the other ones that uh that I always get hit with well I I I interestingly enough I was asked to speak to some ag students animal science students in in Panama when I was this right just I mean just two weeks ago yeah um well colleague friend asked me to speak if if I would speak to their their ag students and I said well sure love I love it I always I mean we've been down there before and and I always enjoy speaking to students especially ag or veterinary students I said what do you want me to talk about he goes I want you to talk about management techniques to to mitigate the impacts of New World screwworm on your your herd I was like uh what you why me he goes well i i've I've heard you speak um I know you're old enough to remember it and remember the eradication program you you know a lot about the history of the eradication program why it worked why it was why it was even started and um if you think about it these students down here they're going to have to manage there they're not gonna have screwworm sterile flies available to them for at least a decade yeah last time it took 50 years and I'm like well you know what they're in the wind um so yeah what what do they have they got management that's all they have to mitigate the impacts on their on their flocks or herds and you know I kind of kind of set me aback for a minute and then I thought well you know what I would sure I would love to and we we talked we talked about the eradication program we talked about the history of the parasite first then we talked about the eradication program that was initiated here in the United States and why and those kids i they came up to me afterwards and said you know we've never heard that before that's fascinating you know that they and and then we talked about you know what what what management techniques do they have that they could same for us yeah what are our management techniques let's let's manage our breeding seasons right well let me back up number one is let's pay more attention you need to look at your livestock more whatever that takes um for us is that a drone is that game cameras is that infrared drones is that just in the pasture is that hiring more help is that just making it a routine what does that look like I don't know it's different for everybody I had somebody asked the other day or said they were they were hearing of a company that was training dogs. That's called the USDA CBP yeah their Beagle Brigade really well they're not they call it the Beagle Bright okay because that's where they started years ago and that's the that's the the contraband smelling dogs that they use in ports of entry for multitudes of things they can train them for foodstuffs they can train them for plants they can take them train them for drugs they can train for explosives well why couldn't you train them for screen old timers at home used to say they had border collies that would take you to a worm that was that was brushed up somewhere to a wormy that's funny. Yeah or I had one guy claim his gilding could smell them really yeah yeah and he would he would point you to them because they feel bad right they're shaded up they're brushed up yeah they're not you know caking them you know oh they're gonna come to the cake wagon we cake them twice a week the the sick ones aren't gonna come to the cake wagon if it's a baby calf his mama may come to the cake wagon but he's still gonna be brushed up so observation you know vigilance is is number one management technique that I I would I would tell number two is let's control our breeding seasons um down there you know a lot of them just leave bulls out year round some of those places are dual purpose beef and and dairy so they have to have calves year round yeah because they're milking they're milking some of these jersey brain cross things um and I mean think about it that's their sustenance um so they they have to have calves year round right but the the beef producers down there they can do it I went to one place down there that was sure enough progressive and they they had the the most uniform calf crop of any of them that I've seen around there and I was like hey what are you doing he goes oh we we have a 90 day breeding season good I said could you make that better he goes I would like to I really would think about the difference 180 days I mean 90 days 180 pounds of uh 90 kilograms for them uh that's a big difference weight range from the first first of the breeding season or cabin season to the end of it oh yeah so he's like uh you know can we talk about sure so we talked about it um we talked about some some techniques some synchronization techniques and things like that and you know yes we could do it we could do it they don't have a winter they got a dry season and a and a wet season so you know you can manipulate it a little bit but um just concentrating the breeding and cabbing if you if you gotta have resources if you got it what if you have to hire temporary help well if we got it down hire them for 60 days hire them for 60 days calve them out treat navels that kind of thing and then when you when you're going to process them you really you know you need to have somebody around for a week or so afterwards just in case you had to treat anything. Right makes sense so concentrating your your labor expenses I mean that makes sense um you know doing the the husbandry techniques um when when when you're uh when you're processing the calves give them a shot of Dactomax or Dormactin um cauterized D horns maybe go to freeze brandon instead of fire branding or if you are fire branding put some kind of of coating agent on the the brands you know spray them with IU shield spray them with put put pine tar on them you know something um castration sites which some of them down there it's kind of eh a lot of them don't don't cut their bull calves um got a lot of bull brama bull calves running around down there uh intact bramble bull calves uh but when you do you know spray spray catron spray uh uh uh screw worm uh aerosol around the wound coat the wound ayou shield um wound coat pine tar is something um uh you know if they're aiing Do we cause do we cause wounds? Sometimes, I mean, when you're AIing, do you ever have a bloody glove? Yeah. Um, I saw a picture of a of a of a dairy heifer or dairy cow that had been AI'd, and then the first thing they noticed was the milk production was dropping. And didn't notice anything wrong with her, just her milk production went went off and then started having a funny smell. They they spread her vulgar lips and she had a terrible myiasis, a terrible maggot infestation in her vulva just from the AI. Wow. Um, you know, could you give them could you give them a shot of of mectin? Uh could you give them a shot of dormectin at the time you're AI and you know, just things like that, management techniques to mitigate. Um, I don't know how how many bulls they test down there, but if we're trick testing bulls, do we ever get a you know a little blood on there? Sure. You're messing with the sheath. So should you give them a shot of avarmectin's uh ivermectin or dormectin at the time? Yeah, maybe so. Maybe that wouldn't be a bad idea. Um wait until that after you they pass the the semen evaluation, you know, in case they had to be slaughtered. But um you know, still is that is that a management technique? Sure, sure. Um and and there's gonna be there's gonna be lists of new management techniques. You know, we're doing this because we want to try to prevent it. A lot of the stuff I didn't growing up, uh, you know, I it was unawares to me that that's why we did it, but yeah, painting brands. I mean, I had to paint brands. That was my job. That's what you did. Yeah, I've got a had a can of Ticoli and I had a paintbrush and I painted brands. Why are we doing this? Oh, it makes them feel better. Okay, fair enough. But it was also to to reduce the screw worms. Um, we always growing up, we always sprayed uh screw worm bomb. Well, we don't have screw. Well, we're doing it anyway. And we, I mean that's what that's what we did. It's muscle memory. I still, my kids grew up doing that. Um we always spray the castration side. Again, why? Well, because that's what we did, that's what dad did, that's what I'm doing, that's what you're gonna do. But it had there was some rationale behind that. Yeah, of course. There was rationale behind that. Um ear tagging, you know, do you spray a little catron or aerosol permethrin? Yeah. Probably so. How about when you when you implant? Do you make a wound? Yeah, you make a pretty good wound when you implant a calf. So let's let's squirt a little bit on there. Let's give them some. We're processing them anyway. Won't we give them an injection of Dwormer? Um, those kind of things. That's what I told those kids down there. And then I asked for questions. You get a lot of them? Yeah. I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

Kind of ship their world up. You know, they're they're little, they were apprehensive, and they're all sitting back. We're in a big auditorium, had about 60 students, and they're all sitting in the back. And I got a translator translating everything. I said, okay, hey. You tell them that everybody on the back row, there's gonna be an exam at the end of this lecture, and they're all gonna fail. Anybody on the front row gets an automatic A. I was kidding, right? They all, you know, they he translated, they all got up and they all moved down to the front of the auditorium, which was good. And they're you know, they're a little apprehensive, this old white guy from Texas. And then we got to talking and they they started warming up, and then they wanted to ask questions. And one of them asked, she said her granddad said that you treat by spitting tobacco juice in a wound. You know, is that right? And I said, Absolutely. You know, nicotine is was the original dewormer. You know, of course. You spit tobacco juice in one of those, is it is it really the best treatment? No, but would it be effective? Yes. Wow. Um, one of them said her granddad said that they took ashes and would put in the navel. Well, it's desiccant, it dries it up.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

Sure, would that work? Yeah. Is that the best thing? Well, maybe not, but if that's all you got, when I was a kid, they used to talk about taking cedar leaves and grinding them up and packing a uh a wound with those that had that had screw worms, the tannic acid in the in the in the cedar leaves, you know, plus it was a desiccant and dried them up. But is that the best thing? Well, no, but it it does it help. Would it work? Yeah, possibly, yeah. That's all you got. It's mehorking not uh. Um one lady asked about feeding garlic. Well, sure, it's a it's a um it's a repellent. Um you gotta be careful, it's toxic at high levels, but I mean, could you do that? Sure, sure, why not?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

Yeah, didn't you get that question at TSC?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:09

Sure did, yeah. Uh again, would it be effective? I you know, maybe. Um just be careful with the with the dosage because you can, it is toxic. Yeah, it can be too. Yeah, yeah. Um one question that that caught me completely off guard is one, you know, we had already we'd already talked about the sterile fly, sterile insect technique and using radiation and releasing these things into the environment. And one girl, she had, she said, is there any unintended environmental impacts of the sterile fly or sterile insect technique? And you know, it was touted as being environmental friendly all along because you're not releasing radiation out into the environment. You're you're releasing a fly that had been irradiated, but it's not carrying uh uh radiation in into the environment. And while the while the guy was translating, I'm thinking about it, and I was like, unintended environmental impact of the sterile fly technique. You know, that's that's a that's a you kind of blow it off at the first, like, oh you know, she's worried about environmental impact. And then you get to thinking about it, and I said, Well, actually, I can think of an unintended environmental impact from the previous eradication of sterile sterile insect technique. And I said, That has to do with our wildlife, our wildlife flourishes after after we control the screw worm in the environment. Is that a negative impact? Um if you're selling hunts, uh no, I mean it's a it's a it's a positive environmental impact. But if they're gonna act as the reservoir for the screw worm now that it's come back, could that be negative? I you know, it's it's it could be depends on which side of the fence you're you're standing on when you look at it. Um that was an interesting question that that young lady had, and I think she was expecting a uh an answer like, uh oh, you know, radiation into the environment's bad, bad, bad. You know, it's gonna make all these mutant stuff. But that's not the case. But I think that was unintentional. I don't think we I don't think we we collectively, our forebearers, thought that one through. Um we didn't have feral hog issues, we didn't have we didn't have urban deer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:44

Um I'm gonna say I bet a whole lot less animals were getting hit on the road.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um almost hit a coat just right down here, just middle of the night, middle of the afternoon, you know. Um those did our did our varmints flourish? Well, sure. A whole lot more food. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Unintended? Hmm. Negative? Again, depends on your point of view.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

So have you heard of have you what is the I mean the half of the flies they make are female as far as sterilization? Half the flies they make are female, half are male.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:19

I have heard word through Texas Parks and Wildlife about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

Novo fly and the the sterile fly, uh the the touch cycling dependent uh females. That's a real a real possibility. If we can get it implemented, it's going to immediately double our efficiency.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

So you'd go from uh basically wasting half yeah. You got 50 million, right now we're making 100 million muscle minus in Panama. By law of nature, it's half boys and half girls. So you're only really dispersing 50 million males. You're not dispersing 100 million males.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

Whenever the females, if they mate with wild males, can the males mate more than once, or is it just the female that mates? The mate, the males, my understanding is they can they can mate more than once.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

Okay. So a a sterile female, it doesn't matter. Right, it doesn't do any good. Uh it's not gonna, she's not gonna reproduce fertile eggs. But the the workhorse is the the sterile male, because the female does only breed once. Um so if she breeds with a sterile male, then the eggs that she produces are gonna be non-viable. So we could what do you call it, the Nova? No Novo? Novo Novio, I believe, is the the I don't know if it's trademarked. It's a it's a it's a and again, I I'm not I'm not sophisticated enough to completely understand it, but it is a gene edit that makes the female fly dependent upon having tetracycline or doxycycline in her diet. So when they're when they're rearing them artificially, as long as the the tetracycline product is in the feed, the female reproduces, she breeds, everything's super duper. When they when they're pupating, or or in the larval form, I guess, is when it's gonna happen, they remove the the tetracycline from the the growth media that they're feeding on, then the females die. So you're just all your resources are going towards the males, and and it's gonna increase the efficiency. Because they are dependent on tetracycline in their artificial diet. If they were to escape, in the real world, there's not tetracycline in the diet, so those those larvae that she produces out in the They'd wipe out anyway. The females would, yeah, anyway. You just have you'd have males. But um the females wouldn't be No The Females are the ones that do the do the damage. I think there's even I I if I'm if I remember right, I think that there's a a dilutional effect in the the the males, if a male that was raised with a gene modified or gene-edited tetracycline dependent, I think his if he were to breed with a wild female, I think the offspring are like 50-50. I think there's a dilutional really. I if I remember, I I mean, Tucker, I'm I'm maybe making that up, but sounds good. It does sound really great. Sounds like that. Sound like I know I've said it with authority, so you you know, um you you believe me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:51

So uh I don't know But that would double our capacity.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

It would double our capacity in a relatively short period of time if and again it it it uh well uh Dr. Scott and Dr. Art presented that last week. You were gone. Did they? Yeah, I must miss that one. Yeah, yeah, they presented on that. Fascinating. Um brilliant, brilliant academicians researchers, and they presented uh Dr. Scott is from Australia, I believe, and he had worked on a similar project in New Zealand on some bot fly down there, and then Dr. ARP and uh Dr. Scott is at North Carolina, Dr. ARP is at ARS in in Kerrville. Okay. Uh really interesting young man.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

Yeah, I'm sad I missed that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:39

Yeah, it was it was it was actually pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Uh a lot of uh I did get a lot of questions about the doge cuts and the blaming on whatever administration you want to blame. But uh there was cuts to some type of funding towards this the screw from what I understand the screw worm monitoring or uh something like that as far as as far as what doge cut.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:11

Yeah, what is the truth in the since yeah again I'm not a government official. I can't I can't speak um with authority on it, but uh at least when the question was posed to some of the officials, they they denied it. They said actually they got a tremendous increase in funding. Remember, we got 750 million approved in pretty short order for the construction of the the new fly production facility and and more. Um again, if there was significant cuts, um that wouldn't that wouldn't have happened. So uh again the the those in authority denied that that was an impact. Um if if there was an impact, and again, I'm gonna I'm gonna render an opinion, which may get me in trouble, but um if there were funding cuts, um it was before the current administration took over, before Doge started. You know what I'm saying? If there was a breakdown in action, it was 25, 24, 25, something like that. We asked that question in when we were in Panama to the CopEG people and they said no, they weren't they didn't have funding cut. Um so again, I that's based on just observation. Um and again the the when in the in the doge world, we were actually getting money for these projects right now. And and I know a lot of people are upset, a lot of people are pointing blame, a lot of people are saying, oh well, you know, uh we didn't know this was coming, or we knew it was coming. Um if we knew it was coming, why didn't we do more? Tucker, they bought us eight months, nine months, if you think about it, they bought us more time to prepare and and don't want to be elitist or or or talk trash about people, but if if you were unawares and it caught you caught you blindsided, I've been busting my ass for two years trying to get the word out.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:51

Um, and and I'm not the only one. Right. Um, it's not like it's a one-man band here. There's some really good people that have been working really hard to try and educate and try to push forward um some answers. You know, are uh uh are we doing everything right? I don't know. We're doing we gotta do something, and we're doing something. And again, I I people point, you want to point finger, you got five fingers on every hand, right? You can point it five different directions. Well, you know, we shouldn't have we shouldn't have closed the border. We should have closed the border. You know, we could have gotten cows across. We shouldn't have got, you know, uh that's a whole we could have a whole nother podcast on the benefits and and and and costs of that. But it was leverage. We had to have some kind of leverage to make to to try and and entice Mexico to to to play.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:49

Oh, that was one of the questions I meant to ask was did we get immediate collaboration from Mexico this time? Whenever it was whenever uh it had made its way north into Mexico?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:03

As far as dropping flies and and again, I'm uh I'm not I'm not a government official and I can't answer that. I I I I don't know with enough certainty to comment on it. Okay. I I have my ideas uh and I'm gonna I'm gonna keep them right now. I don't have any hair underneath my hat, so I can put them up there and keep them. Um again, we could go down that rabbit hole and you'd be burned up. Yeah. I'd be burned up. It's not uh I I again I don't I can't say with authority that that did or did not happen. Fair enough?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

Yeah you like that? Is that but you can't even but the the bad part is like we can't even say that it did happen, that there there was great collaboration.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:56

If there if there was great collaboration, um how did it get this far this fast? Um again, it is food for thought there.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Good.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:09

Again, if you want to if you want to lay awake at night, think about something, think about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:13

And those so those we've got I mean the flies here for now. Flies here. Flies here. Yeah. The Mexico facilities being redone, bolts are going in. Correct. So maybe we can drop some next spring, summer.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:28

Yeah, and again, uh uh i i if if what we were told the other day is true, uh the the facility in Metapa should be online here within, you know, by the end of the summer, within a month or so. But it goes back to the to the brood. You still have to have the you've got to be able to grow flies, man. I mean, everybody's okay, it's gonna be done by the end of the summer. Well, if we're if we're producing flies by December, we'll be doing good. I mean, again, it it just takes time. Just uh talking to my colleagues at CopEg, you know, you ask them when they tooled up from 30 million to 100 million, how long? It still took them six months. And they are the experts. They're doing it, you know, and so we've got to start from scratch at that new facility. Um supposedly there's still people around that were that that ran it back in the 80s, um, that that you know have a knowledge base, but still you still have to get that brood established and and growing enough flies to irradiate them and sterilize them and make an impact. Um we were told that those flies are gonna come to us first.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

Gonna come north from Mexico?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hope that's hope that's correct. Um again, they could do it, it only makes sense. The problem came south to north. We gotta start north and go back to south. Makes sense. That's that's that's the only thing. Um one thing that concerns me um is with the current response to the to the positive cases, we we're gonna get our state resources are are gonna be every time we get a new response and they have to control that specific area, we're diluting our response our resources. And uh if you we looked at that map earlier. Yes. And and you that was on screwworm.gov. Screwworm.gov, yes. That's the USCA, it's an interactive map. That's that's that's the authority. That's the website that if anybody wanted to look at it, um, that's got the best up-to-date, most correct information that I would I would recommend. Um Texas Animal Health Commission has a website that's got good information. Uh Parks and Wildlife, uh, their maps are actually pretty good. They're pretty easy to to manipulate. But the the screwworm.gov is the the Bible. Um but when we were looking at that map, and you have, you know, I'm in Tom Green County, we got Sutton County to the south, we got Edwards County, then you jump over and you got Zavala, and then you got LaSalle, and then up north you got Gillespie. So there's counties in between that, you know, the the index case happened in in uh Zavala County in La Pryor, which is 50 miles north of the border. So what what's going on between what's going on south of there? Um, does that mean it's established south or did somebody bring it in there? I don't know. The fact that it was in a three day old calf to me would indicate that it's endemic in that environment.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:01

Um so is it endemic south of there and nobody's reported and we don't know. When I was driving back from Zavala County, I went through Rio County, there's not much livestock there. There's a lot of small acreages that are recreational. Are they for hunting, you know? Right. Is somebody there every weekend or are they there a couple times during the summer to to fill their feeders and check their game cameras and then they then they spend, you know, every weekend there in the fall? You know, I don't know. But the thing that bothers me is is that endemic in those counties that it's jumped over. And you know, are we going to end up just making that whole, you know, draw a line from I-20 south to the border. Yeah. Um and and move our resources, say, okay, everything inside here is going to be considered a surveillance or infested or whatever you, whatever designation that that arrives at, and put our resources at the periphery. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not making those decisions. But to me, I I worry about my friends at the Texas Animal Health Commission, my colleagues, I mean, I talked to them, I was like, hey man, you know, are you alright? You gonna you taking care of yourself? You know, are you getting any sleep? That kind of thing because it's all encompassing for them. And they're they're trying to it's like fighting a fire man.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:31

Having things pop up every now and then and yeah yeah they got their work cut.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:35

We got a hot spot here, hot spot here so you go over there, you go over here, you go over here and you know do we need to back up and and fall back to a perimeter and sure and fight in. I mean and again questions I that's a question that I I I have I don't have an answer in my mind that's what makes sense but uh again I'm not I'm not making those decisions.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:01

And on that facility and more should have that or their estimation is up next is it next end of next summer or something?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:11

This is 26 right? Yes. Uh I believe they they were they were predicting production I think November of 27 production. Okay. So I mean they're gonna have to hump it yeah to get there. So by the spring of twenty eight we're we're gonna be fully armed season uh in theory yes in theory armed we'll have Copeg we should have the Mexican plant and in Matapa uh we should have more operational then we can get some traction then we can start thinking the eradication mode not just control mode a little more attack mode right now we're we're right now we're in control mode so if we get those resources available then we do have we have the ability to go back to the eradication mode which again is gonna have to start north and go south yeah so potential's there it's not gonna be this is not gonna be a quick fix thing yeah this is this is uh well I told those students in in Panama a decade at least and that's yeah and that's you know I don't want to I don't want to be too negative to them um tell them it's gonna be another 50 years I don't think it will I think we have the ability to get it done faster with the tools that we have available now um we just we got to get more flies more flies it's gonna take some time yes sir so perfect world in a perfect world which is where I live I don't know about you too no it's it's like it's great it's wonderful nothing nothing messes up in my perfect world um the perfect world I have hair nice no wrinkles brown hair no oh it's blondish blondish right blondish yeah yeah um big muscles nice and my joints don't hurt yeah that's my perfect world what about yours no screw worm in mine no screw worms yeah that's that's that's probably more attainable yeah yeah yeah game moss man yeah perfect world we have those out of the U.S. about 29 I think that's uh that's a goal to work towards and I think I think that's not I don't think that's a pipe dream I think that's attainable um we gotta have a lot of things go right um but realistically yeah I think that could happen I think that could happen that means we strap on cowboy for a few years here we're blessed by having winter time yes um you know unfortunately for some of our producers in South Texas they may have a day or two but the curious thing is you know they haven't had any positives down there in South Texas I know because they had flies being dropped there since they've had the first of the year yeah so they've had the hundred million a week going over there well they're in Mexico yeah yeah but I mean we've we've had fly drops on the northern side of the border since January or so so it works it worked yeah yeah kind of so they just went around that barrier yeah that's the way it if you look at the map that's the way it looks so obviously the flies can do their job wow so um I did want to touch on the tick the tick the Asian longhorn tick and you don't have to talk a long time yeah yeah honestly I don't know a lot about it um I I think if I remember correctly I believe it stays on the host the whole time I don't think it drops off and then you know so um it's a significant parasite it causes it carries a significant um riquetsial organism deliria which is um if you want to think about it uh like anaplash ricketzial type organism a blood parasite um there's not there's some there's some products being looked at about treatment uh talking to my colleagues over on the east coast um they're not real applicable in the real world um and that's the like causes it to where you can't eat red meat or is that is I'm am I thinking of something different I'm thinking of the lone star tick is what I was thinking of on that yeah I've I've heard some stuff about that and I'm not sure I'm really I don't know anything about that I can't really comment on that but the the thaluria the Asian longhorn tick and the thaluria it's a it's a significant yeah disease in cattle um my understanding is uh it's encroaching I believe I believe Arkansas and maybe northern Louisiana have had some positive cases um so it's getting closer um you know what are you gonna do your integrated pest management control ticks just like you would any other tick yeah um you know uh with screw worms integrated pest management's important as well I mean control ticks if a tick bites big enough to cause a screw worm infestation controlling the ticks is helpful uh controlling biting flies is helpful so all those other parasites we can we can make some headway with with some of the newer products and and potentially keep it under control. And I again I saw a little blurb the other day where they're they're they're investigating some other medications to try and treat the thalaria the disease that the Asian longhorn tick carries I do not know much about it. I know I I I listened to a presentation at NCBA last year about it and I talked to the veterinarian afterwards and I said so this sound sounds pretty intense the treatment you know how applicable she said it's not really very applicable in the real world that was more in a dairy type setting where they could get on the animals immediately as soon as they knew it happened you know and and and for us beef producers with ranging cattle it's be more difficult. Again if they're working on it um there's there's a potential for some something that could be effective. Aniplas we still don't have real good treatments for that. Right a little more preventative I guess yeah I mean really um and I think that the immunity for the thalaria is similar to the anoplass um again I think I I don't I don't know for sure but my understanding is that there's animals that are born endemic in an endemic area are more resistant than just like with anaplasing is limited but I think that's what it's looking at. But again it's a considered to be an invasive species that we don't want in Texas. So um are we gonna have are we going to move some tick riders to Arkansas Louisiana border between Texas and and you know trying to mitigate Asian longhorn ticks I don't know but we do need to we do need to be aware that it's an issue and again a good producer we have tools have tools we need to use them just like with the screwworm deal. Our good producers have tools they got management tools we can mitigate it I would tell you that vigilance and good management are going to be the key. Pay more attention to your animals and and have good management techniques.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:11

With uh last question here if you wanted folks to remember anything about whether it's prepping or history or future of this screw worm deal what's it going to be well that's it vigilance and and good management.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:27

Pay more attention to your animals dogs, cats, sheep, goats cows, zebras, chickens you know yeah uh everything better management better vigilance observe them more don't just say this is my this is my gonna be uh my vacation fund for next year I got a few animals out on some acreages I'll I'll go out there on the weekend and and look at them then it's gonna be tough yeah it's gonna be hard um nothing nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with a weekend farmer rancher nothing wrong with that um but good management is gonna pay off good observation is gonna pay off as soon as you see as soon as you see something say something get it reported get that get that process rolling so we can get sterile flies in your area yes people don't like to hear it but we're gonna have some movement restrictions but those are important and if people can if they don't remember anything except that that the lack of movement control is the reason we have this problem right now. It didn't it didn't just it didn't just migrate from from Panama to to Texas and we didn't undo 50 years worth of work in three years with that parasite naturally okay it was moved on a truck. Could it be in Canada tomorrow? Yes if it got on a truck yeah it could be in Canada tomorrow. Is it gonna naturally migrate to Canada? Probably not but could it get there? Yeah sure in a truck so you know we all we all gonna um we all got to be on the same page we all got to be working together um complaining and pointing fingers it's not really gonna do do much good we're gonna have to dig in and and get some work done and it's gonna be work I'm sorry a few years of it it's gonna be a few years of it sure is um but at least what if you're in Panama glad I'm not I'm glad I'm not trying to raise livestock in Panama I get down there it's pretty you get up in the mountains that's beautiful I'm gonna have to go you should go okay thank you that's it you know it all now I know it all perfect all right so we have a new authority regular ranching the regular ranching podcast by Tucker Brown he knows it all just calls him send all your all your questions to him but the guys that figured it out he rose how did that I mean he rose wow I'm gonna put some nuclear radiation on the yeah and we'll we'll sterilize them and they won't kill them and then a girl screw worm fly only breeds once in her lifetime who figured it out I mean how did that happen how did you figure that out man that's that's some cool that old book that I was telling you about the peaceful atom and a deadly fly is cool. If you could get a hold of if you can't find it holler at me and I'll send you my copy but you have to sign a receipt for it because it was my dad oh that's cool that's cool it's got my dad's name in it so that's cool I have to have it back but I would let you read that yeah a few people not very many we better get you back to work.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:44

Yep I gotta go thanks for coming up here.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:46

You're welcome enjoyed thanks for the shirt man yeah you can how about that I don't like that one you like it I do too thank you thank you always like that where will we where will we see you next um maybe NCBA going to a summer meeting um just depends on how things roll out here um I maybe back maybe back south I don't know yeah good luck thanks for the work you do thanks for uh listening to the Registered Ranching podcast go to registeredranchion.com got some new hats Mike just got them put up on the website uh but yeah give us a five star review really helps get the show out and uh man let's get rid of this screw arm get it out of here but until next time folks we love you God bless stay classy and ranch on