Style as Language: The Transformation and Identity behind Fashion with Rachel Hills

In this episode of Style POV, I sit down with journalist Rachel Hills to explore how personal style can be both a tool for self-expression and a form of self-transformation.

You’ve seen Rachel’s work in Vogue, Cosmopolitan, Elle, The Sydney Morning Herald, and The New York Times—and in our chat, she shares the early influences that shaped her style and how it’s evolved into something that holds both power and connection.

We dive into her behind-the-scenes experiences at some of fashion’s most iconic shows, her thoughts on the rise of "it girls", and what today’s TikTok-driven trends say about how we dress. Rachel also opens up about navigating the balance between novelty and sustainability, and how AI is beginning to shift the way we think about fashion.

If you’ve ever wondered how the industry insiders see style—or what it looks like to define your look in a fast-moving world—this episode is one to press play on.

Rachel's Companion Article: How We Dress for Power- and for Eachother

Full Show Notes: https://gabriellearruda.com/style-as-a-tool-for-self-expression-and-self-transformation-with-rachel-hills/

Where to Find Rachel:

Heart Talk by Rachel Hills Substack

Instagram: @msrachelhills

Legacy Article Referenced { why every creator needs an archive-before it's too late}

Rachel's Kibbe Article

00:00 – Intro To Rachel Hills, journalist 
01:21 – In Love with Fashion but trend-resistant
05:27 – Fashion as Expression or Transformation?
06:04 – Using Fashion to Create Connections
08:12 – TikTok Trends
10:54 – The Era of Influencers
14:04 – Democratizing Fashion
15:37 – The Rise of “It Girls”
24:40 – The Language of Fashion: A Gift or Learned?
28:30 – Evolution of Fashion Shows
30:27 – Building Your Fashion Legacy
32:58 – Fashion and AI
34:32 – Novelty vs Sustainability
36:35 – Being Fashionable and Intellectual at the Same Time
43:58 – Her Fashion Moment
47:11 – Final Thoughts + Reflections

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Disclaimer: The Style POV Podcast content is for general informational purposes only and should not be considered professional advice. The views expressed by hosts and guests are their own. Gabrielle Arruda is not liable for any errors or omissions, and listeners use the information at their own risk.

Transcript

Gabrielle: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Style POV, the podcast, where today we're exploring personal style as identity, language, and storytelling. Today I'm joined by journalist Rachel Hills, whose work you've seen in Vogue, Cosmopolitan, Elle, Sydney Morning Herald, and the New York Times.

You might also know her from her brilliant Substack Heart Talks by Rachel Hills, or her insights on Instagram @msrachelhills. We talk about fashion as a tool for transformation, how it helps us express who we are, how we want to be seen, and the way it can signal belonging and even power.

From the heyday of the 2010 style to the limits of fashion as self- reinvention, Rachel brings a deeply thoughtful lens to every part of this conversation, so let's get into it.

 So, welcome, Rachel. I am so excited to have you on the podcast and we're gonna talk about everything from fashion as a tool of transformation and communication, but let's just like dive in a little bit and talk about your relationship with fashion over the years. How has your perspective changed both as [00:01:00] a writer and someone who has developed their own personal style?

Rachel: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me here, Gabrielle, and I think, of course, it's probably easy for me to answer the question in terms of how my approach to fashion has changed as a human rather than as a writer. The way that I approach it as a writer is probably more a reflection of how I change as a human than being 

Gabrielle: Okay. I love that. 

Rachel: Yeah, , I think I first became drawn to fashion when I was a teenager, which probably makes sense. I think it's when a lot of people are first drawn to it. And I was a teenager in the 1990s and, you know, my icons at the time were people like, Cameron Diaz. I remember the outfit she wore with like this pastel blue cardigan, does not sound fashionable from a 2025 perspective. But as a teenage girl, I thought it was so cute. Or like Sarah Michelle Geller and Buffy or Alicia Silverstone and Clueless was kind of my ideal image of what a teenage girl could be. And was not what I was, but it was what I was.

Gabrielle: Yeah. I [00:02:00] think we all wanted the Alliah dress, right? 

Rachel: Yeah, or you know, the cute little, plaid jacket and skirt like that. Mm-hmm. That's the outfit that I remember when I think of that film. 

Gabrielle: Absolutely. 

Rachel: It's an Alliah!

Anyway, so I had this kind of very clear idea of what I saw was beautiful, which was obviously influenced by the time, like thinking that the pastel cardigans were cool. But, I was also at the same time kind of trend- resistant. So, I remember as a teenager in my late teens, like, Fluro became popular.

Mm-hmm. And I hated that or like cargo pants became popular. 

Gabrielle: Oh yeah. 

Rachel: And I hated it so much that I wrote a whole poem about how I refused to buy them. So, I had this idea of what I thought was beautiful and what I was working towards with my own sense of style, but I didn't really know yet how to apply it.

I think in part because I didn't know how to apply the aesthetic I liked to my own, [00:03:00] to my body, not just the body, but the head, like the carrot, the person that I was bringing for. Mm-hmm. And of course we had much more limited shopping options back then as well. Yeah. So I guess I'm involved in having like a clearer idea of what I like and how to translate it.

And also I think having the luxury of not just going into a mall stall and being limited by what's available to me there. 

Gabrielle: Yeah, I love that you used your writing as a form of expression about why you would not be going for cargo pants. That's just amazing. , and you've talked about this in your writing before too, that you, see fashion as a tool for, like, identity and transformation.

How have you personally experienced those roles in your life or your work as a journalist? 

Rachel: Yeah, and I think, again, that's a place where my experience as a human connects with my experience as a writer. 

I think, from my intellectual perspective, and this probably isn't controversial, that one of the main promises that the fashion industry sells us on is this idea that if [00:04:00] only we had this one item or this one look, we would be transformed not necessarily into somebody better or somebody else, but like this better version of the self that we currently are.

Gabrielle: And you could be upgraded. 

Rachel: You could be upgraded, right? And as someone who loves fashion, that story has always been very seductive to me mm-hmm particularly when I was in my twenties. But at the same time, I always knew that that wasn't actually true. That if I had this, particular item, I would not suddenly transform into Sienna Miller or Alexa Chung.

Gabrielle: She had such a choke hold on me during those years. I loved her style. 

Rachel: Exactly. And so I think that tension between the promise of reinvention or the promise of becoming more yourself and then the frustration of the reality of that kind of underpins a lot of my writing in fashion. But at the same time, even though I know that it's a lie, there's the reason it's a lie that works [00:05:00] so well is because there is an element of truth to it. Mm-hmm. 

Like even now, there are times when I put on a different outfit and I feel transformed into a different version of myself and I really enjoy that. I enjoy crafting that and then taking that out into the world to share with other people.

Gabrielle: Do you view each outfit as an individual transformation or do you feel like it's expressing kind of different sides of you that already exist? Is it kind of a mask or is it an amplifier? 

Rachel: I think definitely more of an amplifier than a mask. And I mean, I think my own sense of style, obviously it's evolved over the course of my adult life, but I think that year to year basis, it's pretty consistent.

So it's not generally like I'm showing up in the world visually as a radically different person on a Thursday than as a Monday. Mm-hmm. So much as I'm kind of playing with how I present myself and it's in slightly different [00:06:00] versions and I do sometimes like to tailor it a little bit to different audiences, not in a masking way, but more in conversation between me and the person I'm with. So, I might wear something that I think the person I'm gonna hang out with will appreciate, just as a kind of little way of honoring them. 

Gabrielle: Yeah. Let's talk about that for a second because I think that's a really interesting way.

So, for you internally, you have this identity of who you are. But then you kind of mold it to these different situations and tweak it so that the person can see you in a different light or is it kind of more of a gift for them? Like, they're going to appreciate this.

Rachel: Yeah, it's more just a way of bringing them some pleasure, so.

You know, I have a client and colleague I work with who loves color mm-hmm and she's a finance client. I'm sure she'll be thrilled to be on the podcast now, and she has this fantastic kind of bohemian sense of style, which I love because it's kind of unusual in the finance world.

So one time I was on a call with her [00:07:00] and I wore this really colorful dress and she's like, "thank you so much." And I wore it partly because I knew that it would bring her pleasure to see that colorful dress. Mm-hmm. 

Gabrielle: So it's, like, connection point kind of, too. 

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. So it's not that I'm changing myself or trying to make people generally think that I'm, other than what I am, but we can get more to that later.

These kind of slight little changes. And I think that's kind of how the language of fashion works is often a really great subtlety to it as well. 

Gabrielle: I think it does when you have like clarity of mind of who you are. But I think as your first point of when you have all these articles saying, if you only bought, you know, quiet luxury or if you only embrace buttery yellow, you'll be on trend. Everyone will be looking at you.

I'm gonna ask one follow up question here. Do you think that sometimes when people buy those trends that they're buying the dream? Or do you think that they're trying to connect with the fashion world a little bit?

Because we all have so [00:08:00] much admiration for the fashion world. The pages of Vogue and Marie Claire and Cosmo, they've painted like a world we wanna be part of, right? 

Rachel: Well, I think when you talk about those trends, I think of the TikTok trends, which obviously I've aged out of by the fact that all the TikTok trends, you know, the quiet luxury versus mob wife, et cetera.

 And I think that, as I say, obviously I've aged out, but I see it as kind of a form of play rather than, as trying on. I mean, you are trying on the identity in the sense of trying on a character. 

Gabrielle: Yeah. So, it is a little bit more of a performance then, or do you think it's tied to like, a shift in cultural values too for something like quiet luxury?

Rachel: I mean, I am not a fan of quiet luxuries. You can see by what I'm wearing. I prefer patterns and color and things like that, but , I mean, no, I don't think it's tied to a shift in values. I know we're gonna talk later probably about the 2010s, which was from a style perspective that was [00:09:00] really kind of bold and over the top.

 And, from a fashion perspective, quiet luxury is very different to that, but they're both performances of wealth. They would signify this valuing of wealth and perhaps sometimes quiet luxury could be a way of, if you actually were wealthy saying, I don't wanna glare it down other people's throats.

But again, because the language is subtle, if you're a wealthy person wearing quiet luxury, people can still read it. Like, I can still tell at the airport who the rich people in their tracksuits are, because their tracksuits look different to everybody else's. 

Gabrielle: Yeah, they're not from Amazon. They're the one on cashmeres, sweaters.

Rachel: I didn't even know how they do it, but they're just sitting differently and the fabric is different, and you can tell. And similarly, I think when those of us who aren't exceptionally wealthy, wearing, you know, our own versions of quiet luxury, what we're trying to telegraph is still wealth.

So we don't know that it signifies a shift in values, per [00:10:00] se. 

Gabrielle: Yeah, maybe it's more of a shift of perception too, is that we all now want this to be perceived as this kind of ultra- wealthy individual that has this presentation of easy beauty and easy mm-hmm. "I just threw this all on and now I'm at the airport and look at how polished and awake I look" even though it's 5:00 AM. There's like an ease of lifestyle. 

Rachel: And I don't know how people do that. And again, I guess this is where body interplays with clothes as well because I think my body just would not wear, doesn't matter how expensive the tracksuit is. Yeah. I don't think I'm going to look, you know, easy and relaxed in my cashmere tracksuit that I don't own at the airport. 

Gabrielle: Well, we can talk, like, body types and style systems and all of that later, but I wanna rewind back because you mentioned kind of the 2010s and what a bold fashion era that was. I also witnessed at firsthand there was lots of color, lots of statement [00:11:00] jewelry.

You have journalists like Anna Dello Russo and Miroslava Duma, the influencer, tons of people really coming to light with bold street style. Mm-hmm. It was an era. Talk a little bit about that because, you know, they really dressed for the part, they dressed for those photos. 

Rachel: Yeah, it was an era and it was an era that I loved.

I found it very inspirational and aspirational at the time for how I wanted to dress. I couldn't really put it into practice because I did not have the cash that those women had to buy those extremely expensive outfits. But I would fill mood boards with images of the outfits that I might like to buy, if I had the money. I'd look up the items and like the out net. And there was some social media place at the time where you could put all your favorite items together and maybe design looks. So I just did it privately for [00:12:00] myself. It was a really fun era. Mm-hmm. I mostly consumed it via social media. 

Although my enjoyment of it via social media, I was living in London at the time and it inspired me to wanna go out and cover London Fashion Week. And I think what I loved about it was the self-expression that people were engaging in. Yeah, and even though obviously it was very kind of gaudy kind of fashion, there was still this kind of subtlety of communication and this kind of skill entailed in putting these outfits together.

Whether you were someone, like, Anna Dello Russo or Taylor Tomasi Hill who were, you know, fashion people and journalists, or whether you were the fashion students who were really, most of the people outside of Somerset House when I was covering it, kind of parading their own very bold styles. 

Gabrielle: Do you think that that was kind of the first, peak behind the [00:13:00] curtain? We all saw the pieces in Vogue or growing up and they were in the magazine in this very artistic way and a lot of these journalists and street style influencers at the time really brought them out and said like, look, this Prada dress. This is how I wear it in real life. It exists. Yeah. On the streets, like the street style foundation. 

And it showed people a world. It was kind of buying a new dream in a way too. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Gabrielle: They were taking up space. It wasn't in the pages of Vogue where we would normally see these pieces. It was out on the street. You could technically go and see them and meet them and not really, but like that was the kind of the idea behind it, right? 

 Do you think that that shifted our personal style or shifted how we interact with style at all? 

Rachel: Well, I think even though we're talking about these very wealthy and very well connected in the fashion industry people, that sort of style, that era of street style was also kind of democratizing in a way.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, there's, there's them who were [00:14:00] within the fashion industry and people who follow fashion. These kinds of niche celebrities. But then you would also have at the time, and I think less so now, or maybe it's just the streets that I'm walking on, even myself with my own far less developed sense of style and less developed, you know, 10 years ago than it is now, even I was getting snaps. 

So just people who liked your outfits on the street would capture it. Yeah. So there was this kind of mutual appreciation, not just of these women with access to these fantastic wardrobes, but with how real people are paying attention to what they like and putting it together in interesting ways.

Maybe it did contribute to maybe not all of us, but a bunch of us dressing a little bit bolder. And yeah, a little bit more thoughtful in what we put on. 

Gabrielle: I think that definitely. In my experience in New York, I remember that era too, and people were there. Like, I remember being in like a Japanese magazine and being like, "Hey, I saw your outfit there."

Because it [00:15:00] was just, they wanted interesting style and more so than ever before, there was, as you said a democratization of access, of being able to see what people are wearing. And I think that's continued on a lot, obviously, over the past couple decades. And you have accounts like, you know, watching New York and all of these things that are continuing to show these evolutions.

But along that same time, we have like a lot of "it girls" popping up, which is kind of the opposite of the democratization of power. It's like, no, you guys aren't all fashionable. These women are fashionable. Mm-hmm. It was kind of, they were just famous for being famous or what do you think, like, revolutionized their existence at that point?

Rachel: I mean, such an interesting question and I've written a lot about "it girls" both for magazines. I think I wrote about them for Cosmopolitan, I wrote about for the Sydney Morning Herald, and I wrote about them a lot in my blog at the time. I think, [00:16:00] because I found them so magnetic, in like visually magnetic? 

The way that they would put an outfit together and then how that would appear on them was commanding and beautiful. And I was really drawn to it. I mentioned Alexa Chung before. I think I was also drawn to Olivia Palmero. Is that how you say her name or have I said it wrong?

Gabrielle: Yeah, yeah. 

Rachel: I found them both very magnetic and it tied into that idea of transformation that I too could be as visually magnetic as I'm, if only I managed to find clothes. That's why, like many of us, I guess I would buy things and feel transformed and then , it's not that I wanted to be an IT girl on the grand scale, it's not that I wanted.

Mm-hmm. Be photographing me and putting me in the magazines or anything, but I wanted to feel like one when I stepped outside and I was never able to achieve that sense of feeling. So I felt very frustrated with what I perceived, I think, accurately to be [00:17:00] this live transformation. But it also really frustrated me as someone who was writing for women's magazines and who was very kind of involved in women's popular culture.

That the women that we were highlighting in these pages, maybe I shouldn't say we, I wasn't making those editorial decisions, women that they were highlighting, they weren't actresses, they weren't singers. In many cases they weren't even models. They were just women who were beautiful and looked good in clothes and were good at putting outfits together.

And it kind of frustrated me that this was the vision of womanhood that was being sold to us. This was the ideal of what it meant to be a young woman, at least in the pages of, say, Cosmo in, yeah, 2000s. 

Gabrielle: Yeah, they were kind of like the seeds to what influencers are today yeah or a lot of influencers and it can be interesting.

Do you think that the [00:18:00] OG "it girls" though, do you think they really emphasized purchasing or what were they kind of just, "This is my overall essence and I'm so magnetic. Don't you just wanna buy my life?" It wasn't, "Here, here's my bag and you can buy it." It was just, "Look at how magnificent I am."

Rachel: I mean, it's such a good point, Gabrielle, because you are right.

 Like Alexa and Sienna, who to be fair, is an actress and Alexa as she, but... 

Gabrielle: She was an "it girl". 

Rachel: But she also was a TV presenter. It's not like she was actually an empty vessel. She was also famous partly because she's funny and rye. But neither of those women or any of the others, none of them were saying buy this handbag or buy this jacket.

 The magazines would take their images and then they would go next to it. But you are right that they themselves were not selling us anything. In fact, part of this fantasy of the IT girl is that, which is very different to the influencer mm-hmm, theoretically she has no control.

She didn't choose to become it. She was just [00:19:00] plucked out of the ether because she was so beautiful and magnetic and well put together and interesting. And interesting primarily for her visual appeal and, I think in some ways she ties that figure, ties more to the idea of the muse, as yeah archetype than she does to the influencer who is very much choosing to be there often for her own economic survival. Mm-hmm. And so I don't fault her for that very much as sell us things as well. 

Gabrielle: Yeah. Do you think that there's more or less power when we have the age of the influencer versus the age of the IT girl?

Because the IT girl, we kind of couldn't attain her life, you know? By default. Mm-hmm. It was like. The walls are back up and you guys are out there and I'm going to give you privilege to view my beautiful life. I'm going to give you privilege to see the runway shows and the outfits and the bags I buy.

But you're kind of out there, whereas the influencer opens the door and says, [00:20:00] kind of come in with me. 

Rachel: Yeah. But power for? Who do you mean power for versus the influencer or power for us as the consumer? 

Gabrielle: Power for us as the individual viewing it. 

Rachel: I don't think we have any more power. The current situation, I think it's probably worse because at least "it girl" herself wasn't saying, "I'll let you inside the fashion show." She was photographed there by someone else and then her mm-hmm picture appeared on social media or in the magazine. But as you talk about that influencer culture, and I think back to that era of Alexa and others, I think of the very early influencers. And I don't know if you remember, a woman called Julia Allison, who was very popular.

She was a New York journalist, kind of, she was a sex and dating columnist. Mm-hmm. And she had a Tumblr back in 2007, 2008, 2009, that whole era, which was kind of very early influencers. She would share pictures from her life. [00:21:00] She shared a swimsuit that she'd bought, which I admit I purchased.

Mm-hmm. Because she had it and, again, I found her to be visually very magnetic, but because she was an influencer. Although that wouldn't have been the language used at the time, I guess you would've said blogger. She also felt a lot more entertained, a lot more, relatable and accessible. And in fact, I did end up meeting her.

So that is a greater level of accessibility then. 

Gabrielle: So, since you had kind of the background of this, you could kind of see a little bit behind the curtain more than most of us. Do you think that there was a lot of labor attached to these "it girls" and journalists who were kind of taking up space in the industry at the time and really carving their own space in the fashion landscape? 

Rachel: Well, I think that someone like Julia Allison, who was a projo influencer, I would say that the labor was absolutely relentless. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know her personally, I [00:22:00] just met her, but that was apparent from the way in which she was constantly blogging and constantly commanding attention, that was clearly not effortless.

 But I think that, for me at least, the labor of the "it girls" was a lot more invisible. And it was only when, I think it was Cosmo that I wrote that piece for and I interviewed Danielle Meda, who is a Canadian fashion writer, and she pointed out to me for this piece, she's like, actually, there's a huge amount of labor involved in looking like someone like Alexa or Olivia. 

 It's not just the beauty labor, but the labor of being able to put together, and I mean, it sounds funny saying this out loud, but the labor of being able to put together an outfit as well as they're doing it like that takes a large amount of visual acuity and they're not just showing up like that.

Gabrielle: They're using it as a tool of communication, right? 

Rachel: Yeah. 

Gabrielle: Because if they, they falter their outfits are gonna be, you know, regarded as, [00:23:00] oh, that was inauthentic, or, what a miss, how much does that not communicate who they are? They really did use it as a tool of communication, not necessarily transformation, because they were being photographed in those outfits all the time.

Rachel: Yeah. 

Gabrielle: Do you think they were aware of that? 

Rachel: Probably yes. Mm-hmm. I would imagine that they were probably having fun with it as well mm-hmm in a really good way. If you're going to become that sort of person get heralded for your ability to put together outfits, you are probably someone for whom the subtle language of fashion is extremely interesting.

And it'd be quite wonderful to be that type of person and also be having all these free clothes sent to you to wear together in whatever way you please. So I think it was labor, but I'm sure it was also a pleasurable kind of labor for them. And I think that because someone like say Alexa, her sense of style did seem to be so much her.

It did seem to be really [00:24:00] authentic. I wouldn't imagine that it would be hard for her to just continue dressing in a way that really reflected her own aesthetic. Or someone like Sienna Miller, like I think again. Mm-hmm. She had this very authentic and clear sense of personal style, which was maybe why we found her visually arresting.

Maybe it's actually very rare for a 22-year-old woman to know so clearly who she is on an aesthetic level. 

Gabrielle: And do you think that that is something you talk about, like the language of fashion and messaging, and do you think that people, the average person, has that ability to learn that? Or do you think that's kind of a gift that they might innately have?

And you know, obviously Sienna Miller had acting in her background and a lot of these IT girls had some media kind of training or experience. So they might have been... 

Rachel: And their mom probably teaches them a lot too. 

Gabrielle: Yeah, exactly. So do you think it's just like a gift we have or is it learned in the pages of Vogue? Where do we capture this visual [00:25:00] language? 

Rachel: I mean, it's a great question. My immediate instinct was I do think it is a gift. Mm-hmm. I think there are some people who just know in a really innate way how to style an outfit. And I think that it's a skill that most people don't have. I recognize it in people when I walk down the street. Like, I'd say of my own sense of style. I think I have a clear idea of what I find beautiful and I'm able to find items that reflect of my idea of beauty. But if I compare my outfits to someone who I think is incredibly skilled in that, I don't think my own outfits come together with the same sense of cohesion and, I'm not seeking flattery here, it's just my honest assessment.

 And I think that while I've improved that over time. That, and so probably I've come a lot closer to it than I might've been five or 10 years ago, I think that there are some people for whom that's innate. Mm-hmm. But to your point about Sienna Miller, having been an actor and I think about friends I have who've been models. 

I know that friends I have who have been models have [00:26:00] learned enormous skills about styling their hair and makeup, for example, mm-hmm through watching other people do it for them. And I imagine that if other people are styling your outfits, you learn little tricks here and there. 

Gabrielle: Yeah. It's like a collection of knowledge and learning to pay attention to details, too.

And as you mentioned before, kind of learning what works for your body type or learning mm-hmm different elements of the language. So I know that you have covered lots of different things and you've think covered elements like Sydney Fashion Week, and you mentioned that you weren't drawn to the technical details, but the kind of woman that each collection spoke to.

Let's talk a little bit about that because I think that ties nicely into the idea of communication and how we use the language of clothes and how we're all connecting through that. 

Rachel: Yeah, I think so. I was only 23 when I reported on Sydney Fashion Week. Okay. And I was just, honestly, at the very beginning of my journalism career, and to be honest, I didn't know very much about fashion aside from what I liked.

So, I wouldn't have [00:27:00] been in any position to report on it like a fashion journalist about, well, I guess many, many very good fashion journalists will report on Fashionist story. But I wouldn't have known how to report on the lines and the colors and the technical terms because it just was not, and is not where my education is.

But what I was able to do as someone, who'd studied a media studies degree and studied symbolism and interpolation and all of those things, and who I guess was paying attention to fashion through that lens is I was able to look at the collections and understand what type of, let's be real in all cases, cool girl they were. For they were all for cool girls. Mm-hmm. But what type of cool girl and who were they trying to speak? And I think that in telling the story in that way, I remember the editor I was working with, she said that she really enjoyed that and I guess it made it more accessible for other readers, most of whom also wouldn't have been trained designers. 

Gabrielle: [00:28:00] Yeah, I think that's an absolutely a gift.

Because honestly, no one wants to unless you're another fashion designer, read about the bias hems and the, you know, split seeming or the raw selvage, you know. Those things are not going to be captivating, like the story that you are going to tell. 

Do you think that fashion shows in general have changed since, you know, kind of the early aughts and, and till now because fashion seems more and more needing to make a splash and to kind of scream at you a little bit, and maybe we've lost a little bit of this, like, collective storytelling that existed back then. 

Rachel: I mean, I think you are more the fashion expert than I am on these things, so I... 

Gabrielle: But, you have a beautiful story. You tell stories. 

Rachel: But I think that when I look at it, I think you said they're losing stories in some ways.

I think they're still telling stories. So just telling lot in bigger and more cohesive ways. And again, maybe I'm thinking more of 2010s and post [00:29:00] pandemic stuff. Mm-hmm. But if I think of how I'm imagining my reflections on how fashion shows have changed, because so much of it is told via social media now.

Whereas when I was in my twenties and I wanted to find out what had happened at the shows, I'd go to vogue.com and I'd have to, you know, press the arrow through the slideshow. Mm-hmm. 

Now they create whole worlds. So this storytelling is kind of, I think, amplified. Because the clothes have always just been part of the story that's why we have fashion advertising, for example, where they, put it in a broader context. And so I think the shows have become often more a bigger part of how the stories are told. 

Gabrielle: But I love the way you talk about fashion, and I love the way you talk about it as a storytelling and kind of a legacy aspect.

I read on your Substack, Heart Talks by Rachel Hills. And I loved your idea that we kind of form our own legacies, and you mentioned Beyonce style and how she has mm-hmm crafted her own legacy by [00:30:00] storing it all. And I think a lot of people are in kind of trying to do that online with social media or daily outfit photos.

Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? 

Rachel: Yeah. So that piece was really about, for the benefit of the listeners, that piece was about how artists create their legacy through keeping their work together. So, Beyonce's archive is quite famous. I kind of imagine that as this room in her house.

I know a lot of it's digital, but I imagine that she keeps her costumes there. She keeps all of her music, she keeps apparently videos of every single performance she's ever done. And you are right, the fashion is obviously part of it. And I think Beyonce is also someone who, whose skill with commanding image.

I am very drawn to and impressed by the way that mm-hmm she uses her Instagram. I mean, she basically gives away nothing about her life. 

Gabrielle: Yes. 

Rachel: But she creates these images that tell a story that I'm gonna guess for her. I mean, she's talked about how she separates Beyonce, the person from Sasha [00:31:00] Fierce, the performer.

Gabrielle: Mm-hmm. 

Rachel: I don't feel like what Beyonce puts on Instagram is probably at all an authentic reflection of who Beyonce the human is. But it is this kind of beautiful reflection and kind of a form of art in and of itself. 

And so, yeah, fashion is obviously part of how she tells her story. And I think I was thinking about it more how as artists, and obviously some of us are artists through fashion.

Gabrielle: Mm-hmm. 

Rachel: So for me, I was thinking more about writing and music and theater and stuff like that. I didn't know that I would personally put my fashion in my archive. 

Gabrielle: I think it tells your story. 

Rachel: Yeah. I mean maybe, there is some special items that I could include in there if theoretically this is of importance to other people. 

Gabrielle: Like your poem about how you don't wear cargo pants, I think that's... 

Rachel: Cargo pants and now I have no place to shop.

But yeah, I think for people, certainly for designers, they should be keeping [00:32:00] archives. I have started taking pictures of my outfits recently because I've been using AI to optimize them a bit more. So, I'll take a pic of my outfit and then I will ask for the AI's critique of my outfit and, then ways that they would accessorize it, I uploaded my entire wardrobe to it.

Mm-hmm. Although a perfect memory of it. But I don't think I'd personally include my pictures. Maybe if there's a picture of me doing something, but then honestly in my big career moments, I don't feel like I'd been wearing outfits that I love that much. Maybe that will change in the future, but I don't think I've really aced my image.

Gabrielle: Oh, I think you have, remember it's a transformation evolution. But I wanna go back to something you said because I think it's so interesting that you use AI and I think a lot of people are kind of exploring AI and trying to find the value of what it can help with and when it goes maybe too far.

Mm-hmm. I know you think that fashion is, like, very deeply coded and that we kind of see signals or we instinctively pick up on things that others might [00:33:00] miss. Do you think that AI can see those things that maybe you can't or... 

Rachel: I don't know. I don't think it's picking up on the signals of what people are trying to communicate.

I think it can pick it up in broad brush strokes, so mm-hmm if you were to upload a bunch of pictures of yourself and ask it to describe your style, it'd probably be very accurate in that. 

Gabrielle: Mm-hmm. 

Rachel: But I don't think that it's picking up on the little details that you or I would pick up on. What I love when I'm walking down the street and I see someone with a cool outfit is, you know, the way a belt is or I think of a guy I saw years ago, after dropping my son off at school.

He was a young man and he had like these cropped pants and these really high socks and mm-hmm. I don't work in fashion, so I can't describe it better than that. So I apologize, but 

Gabrielle: That's perfect. 

Rachel: It was. It was so, it was this little detail and I'm not sure how many people would've even noticed it, but I noticed it and I think what that detail said to me was, here's [00:34:00] someone who's taking care of their appearance and having fun with it.

That was really all the language communicated, but I loved it and felt an affinity with it as someone who's also trying to have fun. Although I wouldn't have done the sock and pant thing Because it just wouldn't work on me, but it worked great on him. 

Gabrielle: But it's cool to hear you kind of like read the outfit in a way.

What do you think about novelty in fashion then, and kind of where fashion is today, or how we approach novelty in our transformation skills and in our expression and how you write about it, too? 

Rachel: Well, I think that novelty is kind of at the root of fashion.

It drives the fashion industry and there are some tensions within that, particularly from a sustainability perspective. Because of the existence of cheap fast fashion and because of, as we've seen over the last couple of years, these really rapid trend cycling, although I'm not sure how many people are actually following each trend as they cycle.

I'm gonna guess it's not a super common experience, but there can be this [00:35:00] rush for novelty. Mm-hmm. That obviously is not good for our planet and results in a lot of waste. But I think that even if you're not chasing the trends like that. I still certainly on a personal level, enjoy a sense of novelty, like I enjoy a new item and figuring it out, how to incorporate it into my wardrobe, or I enjoy seeing an image that I'm inspired by and trying to figure out how to translate that with what I have or what items I would need to make it work, et cetera.

I think that the novelty is kind of fundamental. I try to get around it on a sustainability perspective by buying as much as I can secondhand mm-hmm and then reselling when the item is no longer serving me. But yeah, I feel like novelty is fundamental and inevitable, at least in the industry as it stands.

Gabrielle: And I think that's what some of the it girls and women like [00:36:00] Alexa Chung did so well. I know when you wrote about her, she said she just like wanted to crawl into your brain or, and, she was just someone who was so smart about how she balanced novelty and expression and kind of used this platform that she had built and used this communication tool, to funnel a career.

Rachel: Yes. 

Gabrielle: And so how would you say that people would balance something like intellect with image in their own lives? 

Rachel: Most of us have intellect. We all have intellect, but we all have interiority and we all have, thoughts and feelings and things that we're working through in our own brains.

 And I think fashion can be a really fun and pleasurable way to express that interiority externally. So in that sense, mm-hmm. I don't think they need to be in conflict. Obviously we live, maybe less so today than previously, but I think we do live in a world where for some people they will see a woman who is fashionable or beautiful in some way and they will [00:37:00] assume that she has no brain.

And I think that I, you know, I reviewed that article I wrote about Alexa before our call and people often assumed that she had no brain because of the fact that she was beautiful and fashionable, and this is obviously not true, that these things need to be an opposition and I think that it's better to view it as this expression of the person inside rather than being an opposition to each other.

So, I don't really feel like, for me there is a contradiction between those two things. I feel confident and secure in my own intelligence and interiority, I don't feel like having an interest in fashion really contradicts that or undermines that in any way.   When we think about what makes a good outfit, or at least when I think about what I think makes a good outfit, often it's that there's something a little bit creative or unexpected about it, that someone's pulled together some garments in an interesting or unexpected [00:38:00] way. To me, that conveys a form of intelligence as well. I also think that for women, the way that we dress can also be a really important way that we convey and express power. And while that can sometimes be a little bit unfair, so often.

You know, the way we convey power through dress is by conveying or suggesting wealth. It can also be in much more kind of creative and transgressive ways.

 A couple of years ago I was in Kigali in Rwanda for the Women Deliver Conference, which is this big, international conference with feminist activists from around the world.

And one of the things that really struck me while I was there was how much, so many of the women there were really bringing it from a fashion perspective, wearing these incredibly creative and colorful clothes. And it really got me thinking about how our [00:39:00] ideas about what it is to look professional and credible are shaped both by very masculine ideas, they're very masculine standards, but also by very white and Western standards.

In this space, which was very female dominated and very international, we, the thousands of women in this space were able to kind of challenge that and have a much more expansive and kind of joyful expression of what it meant to be someone who was credible and intelligent and powerful than we might have if we were in, say, a New York or London law firm.

So for me, I would say I have no conflict between those things. I'm very confident that I am a smart and interesting person. And I also enjoy fashion and that's fine. 

Gabrielle: I love that. because I think [00:40:00] that we as consumers have gotten more intelligent and more astute with how we present. As we do that we need to also break down those kind of barriers or those, preconceptions that if you're into fashion, you're not also a smart, independent, forward- thinking or independent- thinking person. 

Rachel: Quite a strict assumption really as well. 

Gabrielle: It is. 

Rachel: Like, I feel it's an assumption that straight men are more likely to hold than other groups. When you asked me about that contradiction, I did think back to maybe when I was in my late twenties or early thirties, and a guy I knew who was really quite nice otherwise said to me that I should smile less because it made me come across as stupid.

Gabrielle: Gosh, people are incredible. 

Rachel: I did not really take on his feedback. 

Gabrielle: Good, good. You should not. Did you feel that being a journalist in fashion that you were held to a different standard at times because, like being a journalist, were you looked down by other journalists or were looked up to [00:41:00] within the fashion industry, did you kind of feel like you were towing the line a little bit between those?

Rachel: Well, I really write about a very wide array of topics of which fashion is just one. Earlier in my career, I might've been known as a women's magazine journalist and more broadly. And suddenly there are people who would look down on women's magazines back when they existed in that form, as a stupid form of journalism, and I certainly did not believe that that was true. Kind of my whole mission was to insert smart and complicating ideas about femininity into that. I wouldn't say that I felt looked down upon within the journalism industry and I was also writing for newspapers. 

Gabrielle: New York Times, all these great publications.

Rachel: But I also wouldn't feel like I would be looked up to by other people in the fashion industry either. I mean, I consider myself to be more adjacent to it rather than part of it. 

Gabrielle: Well, I love your standpoints on some of the things you've talked about, whether it was Kibbe or the "it girl" [00:42:00] and all that.

I think that you had really smart things to say about it. Now, to circle all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, you were talking about style as kind of a transformation tool. We were kind of sold that with a lot of women's magazines especially. 

Rachel: Yes. 

Gabrielle: You know, 10, 15 years ago it was buy this and you'll become this.

Do you think that there are limits to this transformation either then or now because things have changed? 

Rachel: I think there are always limits to the transformation. As I said, like, that was the point in my frustration that I was being sold this idea, but I could never execute on it.

And even now that I'm in my forties and I feel like I have a really nice handle on my own personal sense of style. I'm still not ever ultimately transformed. 

To tie it into other Women's magazine themes, if we look at those images that were sold to us at the time, and that I guess is still sold to us now for through influencers, this idea that if you have this product, you'll be transformed.

The image that's being sold to us is not just [00:43:00] contingent on the item or on the clothing, it's also contingent on the body and the face. So it's part of this bigger fashionist soul to us, almost as this tool by which we can achieve a beauty standard. But, the reality is that I am never gonna look like Alexa Chung because we have very different body types. We have different faces, and the transformation that fashion offers me is the ability to be, I guess, visually better version of me, a more accurate version of me, different facets of my personality, rather to become more like someone else.

Gabrielle: An evolved version that helps you tap into different evolutions. So, was there an outfit or fashion moment that kind of like changed how you saw yourself, even if it was just for a day? 

Rachel: Great question. My first thought was an outfit that I wore when I was 17 and I was a singer and I was going to a [00:44:00] singing showcase and it was just this plain black, tight- fitting dress.

The item itself wasn't really remarkable, but it was the first time in my life where I ever felt pretty. And I remember getting the photos back from that event. I was like, wow, this is an image of myself that I actually like. So it did transform the way that I saw myself in that moment. 

Gabrielle: That's very powerful. And I think that when you get that fashion language right, and it communicates what you'd like it to, it has that kind of power to communicate it to yourself, too, because sometimes we don't listen. 

Rachel: Yeah. 

Gabrielle: Or we can't see ourselves to that full potential. So, and lastly, let's just go with what does style mean to you today? And what is your personal style point of view right now? 

Rachel: Hmm. So I think that... 

Gabrielle: Big question. 

Rachel: Yeah, I know. So for the first part, style to me is somebody having a clear sense on who they are. And what they like and being able to communicate that [00:45:00] aesthetically, like when I'm drawn to somebody's style, I think that's what draws me to it.

And then what's my own style point of view? Do you mean what am I drawn to now or 

Gabrielle: Yeah, let's hear it. You've seen so many beautiful transitions and been in the front rows of these shows and been able to see the fashion world and the journalism world and writing, and been able to tell so many stories.

So what's your story? 

Rachel: My story or my aesthetic? 

Gabrielle: Both. Well, are they connected? 

Rachel: They also more connected, I guess. Great. I mean, that's actually a great point. I recently had some new headshots taken. And the idea behind those was to communicate a different and more powerful aesthetic. And therefore, to tell a more powerful story about myself as a creator.

 So, I'm drawn to, what I've been drawn to for a while. I love color, I love patterns. I love bold jewelry. Also, what's drawing me right now that wasn't before was some of the images that came out of the Paris Fashion [00:46:00] Weeks, I think back in February and there was kind of a lot of lace and texture and layering.

So I'm drawn by, because I guess I like detail in the pattern and the color, of bringing together complex details as they were doing through texture. Whereas I normally do it through color and patterns, so I'm experimenting with block colors. 

Gabrielle: Oh, I love that. And it kind of expanded how you were looking at your outfits too.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly.

Gabrielle: So, I wanna hear though, what were you trying to communicate in these new headshots? What was the story? 

Rachel: The story was boldness and confidence. So I think often when one gets head shots taken, there's this kind of, often people will try to make you look a bit corporate and that's not how I feel.

So I think I wanted to look kind of powerful and Bohemian. 

Gabrielle: Yeah. A reflection of where you are in your life, too. The evolved journalist and writer and someone who stepped into their own. 

Rachel: Yeah. 

Gabrielle: Any last parting words on [00:47:00] style and your point of view with writing through the lens of the fashion industry?

Rachel: I would say that instead of using fashion to transform ourselves, let's see it as using fashion to transform ourselves into something that is more ourselves. 

Gabrielle: That's amazing. I love that message and I think that everyone would benefit from checking out your Substack. So you wanna tell us a little bit about that, too?

Because I loved the legacy article, about, Nancy Elizabeth, sorry, prophet. Yes. Is that her name? Yes. That's profit. 

Rachel: Yes. Yes. Uh, so yeah, my Substack is called Heart Talk. It's my name rachelhills.substack.com and it being called Heart Talk. It's really meant to be kind of deep reflections on matters of the heart.

So how we live, whether it is style or politics, or friendship or selfhood and explored in this really deep and authentic way is the intention behind it. 

Gabrielle: Well, I think you do that beautifully, and I love hearing your style lens as [00:48:00] well. I think you're a wonderful storyteller and, I will make sure that all of your links are in the show notes.

And thank you so much for coming on, Rachel. It's been a joy to talk to you. 

Rachel: Thank you so much, Gabrielle. 

Gabrielle: Okay, thank you guys. Until next time.