S2.E10 | Jared Redick | Transformational Leader in Performing Arts and Education

This episode of KeyBARD features Jared Redick, an award-winning, sought-after master teacher, choreographer, and coach whose leadership has shaped the global dance community. 

A third-generation ballet dancer, Jared blends a deep respect for classical traditions with an innovative approach to contemporary work. 

He currently serves as a full professor and Assistant Dean of Dance at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts (UNCSA), one of the nation’s top conservatories.

Jared's Website

Want to be a guest on KeyBARD? Send Thembi a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1740803399472257afce75768

KeyBARD is produced, written, and hosted by Thembi Duncan.
Theme music by Sycho Sid.

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Transcript

Jared Redick:

I think bigger companies or companies in general, they almost have a responsibility to help educate the audiences. This is not just an entertainment spectacle, but it's actually trying to say something and communicate something to the audience. And so I think if we find ways to educate our audiences, they'll have a greater appreciation.

Thembi (00:30):

Hello, hello, and welcome to KeyBARD. I am Thembi, and today I'll be talking with performing arts and education leader Jared Reddick. Jared has spent his entire life immersed in the world of dance from his early days as a third generation ballet dancer to his current role as a leader and innovator in arts education. His journey spans over two decades as a soloist with world-class companies like Boston Ballet and Miami City Ballet, where he worked with visionary choreographers and mastered both classical and contemporary repertory. After retiring from the stage, he shifted his focus to mentoring the next generation of artists. As assistant dean and professor at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts, he's directed groundbreaking productions led diversity and equity initiatives and managed multimillion dollar budgets, all while inspiring students to thrive on the global stage. Welcome, Jared Reddick. Hi there.

Jared Redick (01:27):

Hi, Thembi. Good to be here with you today.

Thembi (01:29):

It's so good to have you. Let's jump in. What do you love about ballet?

Jared Redick (01:36):

Well, I think, well, first of all, being around ballet my entire life and dance, not just ballet, but dance in a broader spectrum of the discipline and the art form. It's such a formalized, structured methodology of how to move the body. And I think I really respond well to having that structure and how it shapes and crafts an individual's body specifically to do the art form of ballet. So there is that part of it, but I love the physicality of it. I love the physicality of it. I loved that once you had refined your instrument and really trained your body to a certain level, it kind of unlocked all the possibilities artistically about how can you express yourself? How can you express yourself through dance in a physical way? And so I really enjoy that about it. I could also say performing, having great repertory to dance is another big part of that.

Thembi (02:37):

That's wonderful. I think there's something so special when I witness a dancer who clearly is just so good at their craft, but also I can see their personality, their personal artistry, their personal interpretation in the work. So that's really lovely. Now you have a pretty incredible story. Your grandmother was a prima ballerina in the Hungarian National and she escaped during the Hungarian revolution, the uprising started a ballet school in the us. Your mom started a ballet school, you and your older brother danced. You have this whole family history of resistance and resilience. How has that shaped how the trajectory of your impact in the field has played out?

Jared Redick (03:19):

Yeah, I think regarding that, and it's really something I've come to terms with later in my life now, probably in the last 10 years, when I really reflected on my mother's journey in particular, I didn't know my grandmother really well. We didn't have great connection with her when I was a young child growing. I mean, that was probably the time I had it, but when I became a teenager and an adult, she had passed. So I didn't really know her. But really looking at my mom's journey, we always heard my brother and I always heard, and my younger sister of younger sister as well, we always heard about her escaping from Hungary during the revolution when she was 11 years old. And then coming to the United States and now being someone who's kind of unpacking what is my life actually, how has that trajectory landed me where I am today?

(04:13):

I really think about the struggles that she had because in the early seventies, a woman couldn't open a checking account or have a credit card. And here is my mother who opened a ballet school and started a business in the early seventies during this time and watching and knowing that she created this school that had this trajectory over 50 years of teaching into this big school, but knowing she couldn't do it without a man's signature, a husband's signature in terms of the bank accounts and the credit cards. And we take that for granted now to a degree. Again, I understand the privilege that I walk in, but to think about my mom in that respect, it really kind of is kind of informed and given me a different lens to look at my life through. So I think knowing that and being a first generation American, the roots are not that deep necessarily in my family here in the United States because in Hungary, all of that was lost during the Hungarian Revolution. All the records, all the connections with my family were lost basically.

(05:27):

Well, because again, you're talking about this is during communism, during the seventies, the eighties, when we're looking at how closed those communities and those countries were. And we're not going to get political about where things are today in terms of that. So I think in terms of resilience for myself, I feel like it has informed myself to move forward. And I think my mother did so much to help so many young children and then young adults of course, through her teaching, through her school. And I love that flow that she created for them, the idea of helping people, right, supporting people, allowing them to be the best versions of themselves. So I do think about that quite a bit. And my mom passed about five years ago, and so I really have been reflecting on that. And her birthday's right around the corner. It's in two days.

Thembi (06:18):

Oh, happy birthday, mom. Happy heavenly birthday. Sorry for your

Jared Redick (06:21):

Loss. No, no, it's all good. And I was just thinking about that, how much she did and all the things that she experienced through her lives and hard being first or immigrating to this country, and then all the things that she had to do to create a successful business.

Thembi (06:42):

It's a really incredible story. It makes me think about a recent exhibition that was at the Whitney Museum in New York City called Edges of Ailey focusing on Alvin Ailey. And the exhibition wasn't one of where you just say, okay, this person's body of work, take a look at it, reflect it included what influenced him as well as everyone that he influenced. And it makes me think about, when I think about your story, it's like, yes, you have this incredible legacy in terms of what you've pulled from, but you've also influenced people and you are pulling influence from your mother. And through that, even though you didn't know your grandmother, you still have that ancestral memory and the ancestral memory of the things that happened in Hungary and Soviet. Then Soviet Union was occupying hungry. Am I right or had invaded hung or was controlling it in some way? And so that's where the communism came from, right?

Jared Redick (07:38):

Yes.

Thembi (07:39):

So yeah, so you've got this whole, these circumstances that your grandmother was struggling under and was so brave to say, I got to get out of here. And it just makes me think about how dance can be a conduit for liberation, for freedom, for healing. And I love that your life echoes that same kind of through line of freedom, liberation, and preserving art and culture, knowing how important art and culture is. And that's usually where when there's some sort of oppressive regime, they go for the arts and they go for the culture to destroy and to obfuscate. And so I just think it's such an interesting parallel to your story.

Jared Redick (08:21):

Well, thank you for that. And I mean, the other part of that has to be I do feel this responsibility to carry on. I've been very fortunate, all the opportunities I've been given throughout my career and my life and that people gave freely to me and my mother didn't necessarily have the same experiences as I did in that respect. So I feel that responsibility and then also knowing through the art form of ballet in particular for me, how I'm improving the quality of life for these young people through art, giving them a way to express themselves physically through the art form of ballet. And so for them to be able to maybe unpack things in their lives that they can't articulate with words, we have different learners. So for me, that was a great way for me to express myself as a young person when I was still doing it on the stage and whatnot.

Thembi (09:21):

That's great. So you've described a dancer as an interpretive artist as opposed to a creative artist. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Jared Redick (09:29):

Sure. I think so classical ballet dancers in general, when you're talking about them joining a company and becoming professional, you join a company and really what you're doing is you go into a company and then you're given the material, the repertory for you to learn. So you're given a role and you're supposed to, then you interpret that role in whatever way is appropriate for that work. So as dancers in general, we are always interpreting someone else's works in classical ballet dancers, our contemporary dancers I teach here, they do a lot of choreography themselves, whereas choreography is a very creative, creative process. So then you become a creative artist in that way because creating your own work, you're finding your own voice to express yourselves in that way. But as classical ballet dancers in general, you really are just given someone else's work and finding your own authentic voice to interpret those roles and look at Shakespeare and how many people have gone to all the canon of Shakespeare to interpret all the different roles in all the different ways, and what inflections are you going to use through that language. And the same thing goes for classical musicians or musicians in general. You learn someone else's music or song or whatever it is, and then you interpret it and you make your own take to make it authentically yourself.

Thembi (10:50):

I love that you completed your MFA and dance well into your career as a practitioner and an educator. And I'm wondering how getting the MFA later as opposed to getting it, and then you just had a whole different story. You started dancing when you were a child, and I know for ballet in particular, a lot of times you start very young. So getting your MFA later, how did that influence your approach to dance education, dance leadership?

Jared Redick (11:15):

Yeah, it was one of those bucket list things that happened later in my career. I did not ever expect to go to school to get an advanced degree in dance. I mean, I'd done it so much. You

Thembi (11:27):

Are an advanced degree

Jared Redick (11:28):

In dance. You're like,

Thembi (11:29):

I don't,

Jared Redick (11:30):

You could argue that, right? I mean if you've trained for 10 years and you've done the thing for 20 years, you are an expert in the field. But to go back and get an advanced degree, what was really fascinating to me was the wire perspective that I have now on dance that I learned. And it really opened my eyes to some things and looking at classical ballet, looking at dance in the broader sphere of dance and just kind of looking at it through the dance history lens. And once we start unpacking and delving deeply into dance history, and this is just like we were talking about music and film and so many other areas, you start finding you're aware of the invisibleized voices. You were talking about Ailey, right? You're talking about Alvin Ailey, where are the other voices? We generally know in the classical ballet, all the white voices that are out there, especially your centric voices, because really the roots of where ballets coming from.

(12:30):

So you start seeing and you really start studying Dan's history and you see just the wide variety and depth and breadth of what were those influences. And you don't hear about them, they're just not common knowledge. You have all these voices that were silenced and they were never there. So many other things we've been talking about culturally, at least for the last five year, if not like the last 50 years. So I thought that was really fascinating and it's really informed my viewpoint about how I'm teaching and thinking about the ballet cannon in general, like the repertory and whatnot, and how do you put that forward and what's appropriate and what voices could maybe, what voices can we hold up and present and perhaps educate not only my dancers, but the audience as well. When we look at that,

Thembi (13:24):

That's great. And I guess it also puts you in a position to publish and it puts you in a position to engage with academia in a way from a point of credibility, even though your credibility is to the sky. I understand or can imagine that having that MFA allows you to, okay, I have that credential now we can have a conversation. Nobody can try to take away from your experiences. So I think that was just a really smart move and you're working on an MBA as well, but we'll talk about that later.

Jared Redick (13:53):

And you're exactly right. The MFA does give, it holds a certain weight, it holds a certain clout. I teach in higher education. And so the ability to be able to code switch for academia, because academia has its own language, it has its own way and manner of moving through conversations

Thembi (14:16):

And being able to show up for that in an authentic way is really powerful. So it's admirable that with so much experience that you have and so much technique that you know still went to school to get that degree and are still continuing to be a lifelong learner, I think that's such a great example for your students to understand that even if you've mastered something, it doesn't mean that all there is to know and there's still ways that you can learn throughout life. So that's really admirable. You've discussed the practice of shifting ballet training towards more inclusive and affirming language, and you just spoke a little bit to that about erasure and understanding that through your academic study and moving away from the sort of, we all know dance, even if we haven't had an experience in dance, we know the stereotype of the very strict ballet teacher. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what that environment looks like in your classrooms and in your rehearsals.

Jared Redick (15:13):

And this is something that is, I was brought up through a very old school approach to training, and it was very much a situation where the languaging was very not the most supportive, I should say. And you trial by fire, so to speak, you think of all those cliches as you mentioned. So now I really try to create an environment with my students that they're open and curious and they feel comfortable enough to ask questions to advocate for themselves. And this has to be, so I teach from, the students I teach are all the way from ninth graders all the way up to seniors in college. So approximately 14 to 22 approximately. So how do you have them change the environment and the circumstances in which they train? How do they find their own authentic voice and a voice that's not afraid to advocate for themselves?

(16:14):

We can look at all the negative, not just training practices, but the other things, the inappropriate things that have gone on in classrooms all across the country and the world. So the first step that we have to do is create a safer environment that open communication is important. So for me, we have lots of conversations, especially when they're new students to me or even every semester we revisit those things about touch practices in the studios, for instance, because dance is a very, very physical endeavor. So if there's physical corrections that they feel comfortable, if they don't feel like being physically corrected. And I'm very, very aware of any time that I go to touch a student that they are always have the option to not have that happen. The language that we use is not today, right? If they don't want to be physically corrected, they just say, not today.

(17:06):

And I say, look, that has nothing to do. I don't need to know what the reason is. One of the examples I give is like, well, if I was a dancer right now, I could say, not today because I walked my dog yesterday and he took out my legs and twisted my ankle, so I don't want you touching my ankle today. So I don't need to know that reason. So for them to advocate for themselves is really important. Also, creating a positive environment, we want them to be able to be reflective of what they're doing, not just be very authoritarian in terms of the teaching is like, this is what it is and this is what you do. But for them to be able to question it and we can talk about certain things and try and lead them to the answers or have them find their own answers.

(17:50):

So I really try to find that positive energy in the classroom. One of the things, the simple thing that I do when I start classes, I have them just tell me something positive and not everybody tell me something positive from your day right now what happened? Something in the world could be to yourself, could be your family, could be anything just to try and start the day off in a positive way. And that really comes from some research that I came across I think about a year and a half ago and was like, oh, just starting the day positive starts that positive self-talk versus that negative self-talk, which we want to get. We don't need that in the studio. There's enough of that already.

Thembi (18:27):

The check-in seems to be so powerful because then where your students are mentally, which is something that if you just jump right into the movement, you don't even get a chance to know what your students are thinking or how they're feeling, which obviously impacts how they're going to perform in the class or how they're going to approach things. So it makes a lot of sense. And when you talk about touch practice, it reminds me of, I think I believe the equivalent in theater, which is intimacy work where if there's some sort of touch or intimacy involved, not even just relationship, but if you need to be in someone's personal space or if there's simulation of drug use. So all kinds of things where there are professionals who are trained to work with actors to get them to that place, but with their consent. And I really love the consent practice that's developing in the arts to protect artists. It's really, I think it's going to make a big difference in the coming years. So it's great that you're doing that.

Jared Redick (19:23):

Thank you. We also do, we have been doing intimacy training for the last three years.

Thembi (19:29):

Oh, great.

Jared Redick (19:30):

So a lot of that comes from that. Some of that languaging comes from the intimacy training that we've had, and the faculty gets it and the students get it. And so that's really important that we have that. And going back to the check-ins at the beginning of the class, yes, it is to check in, but it's also to get everyone present together in that moment, because usually we have class early in the morning, so just get them to be present and physically able to be with each other in that moment because everyone's got all these different things going on. Some are just waking up, some are thinking they've got exams, some are thinking they've got family problems or life problems or whatever it is. These are still young kids, but still they have issues as well. And those are valid, but how can we arrive at the same place and make space for each other to do our work that we are there to do?

Thembi (20:22):

You've said that small ballet companies across the US are now providing opportunities for dancers of different body types. And I'm wondering what do you think might be driving that change? And what is the relationship between those smaller companies that are coming up and the bigger ones, the bigger legacy companies in terms of the dance ecosystem, right? So are they feeding into those bigger companies? Are they competing, influencing? Is there just no relationship? What are you seeing in terms of that bigger ecosystem?

Jared Redick (20:51):

Well, I think we go back to the question of having more representation within the broader dance world. And obviously George Floyd was, and the pandemic, the two combined, those moments was a big wake up call that we need to really respect all the different voices and backgrounds of people. And so really have that diversity represented where you look at classical ballet really considered a very Eurocentric art form. So these smaller companies is not just a smaller companies. I think the entire dance world, and I would say the entire arts ecosystem is really taking a hard look, a reassessment of where are we? Where are we culturally? Where are we educationally? Where are we artistically and aspirationally moving into the future of finding out how do we have more perspectives present and celebrated and amplified versus just one perspective? And so we see that all around the dance world, and it's not just small companies.

(21:53):

Everyone's just trying to look and find as many people that we can celebrate and bring forward. And I think that's a more concerted effort. It's always been there, but we can always do a better job. The smaller companies is less about body size and shape than it is. These smaller companies really do feed in just like, it's like the minor leagues versus the major leagues. If you think about it that way. Minor league baseball teams, these players get called up to the majors. So it's kind of the same thing. And it's the same thing in terms of financially, in terms of the length of the contract, the facilities, all the resources that go from working from a small company versus a big company.

Thembi (22:35):

Okay, that's cool. So they exist, they coexist, and the smaller ones are a feeder. That's interesting what you said about it, just being in general, everybody's working together to move forward. That's really admirable. So what are some of the questions that your students are asking you these days?

Jared Redick (22:52):

The questions? Well, right now we're at the time where a lot of them are getting jobs. A lot of them are going to summer programs. So they're questioning what's my next step? What do I do? How do I pursue that? And then if they have right now, I actually just talked with a student and their parents separately about, they had a few different options about what do they do next year, and this particular dancer had three or four different options. So we just kind of went down the list of here are the pros and cons. I made a recommendation, but again, it's not my decision to make and families make their own decisions. These are still young people. This particular dancer was 18 years old, so that's a family decision that obviously they're legal adults so they can make their own decisions, but I was like, this is what I would do and this is why I would do it. And try to lay out the rationale for them to make their own choices.

Thembi (23:46):

You've mentioned that when you were a young dancer, you, I mean obviously this is looking back, you look back on your career and you talked about as a young dancer, you didn't have the emotional maturity to eliminate the negative self-talk, similar to what you mentioned earlier in terms of a dance practice and what has happened in the past and the sort of old school approach. So as an educator and a mentor, how do you help steer students away from negative and just having an adversarial relationship with their bodies or with their practice being overly critical of themselves?

Jared Redick (24:21):

That is the million dollar question and maybe the implementation as well, because we're really talking about human development here and we all remember how hard it is to be a teenager or a young 20 something. You're still developing and maturing and growing, and those steps are, they're challenging. So one of the things that I do do is at the end of my classes, I ask them, tell me something positive, something you learned today in the classroom. So that's really helpful. And again, I'm not getting answers. The classes are too big to get something from everyone necessarily, but you get enough people that we just have the dialogue around it as not as a, I didn't do this well enough today. I want them to think about, I did this a little better today, or it improved a little better, or this was good. Maybe this was not so great today.

(25:15):

I was tired or for whatever reason. So I really want them to have that dialogue of looking at the positive of what it is, glass half full as much as possible. Again, you're really up against that human development aspect of things. And teenagers are, it's a tough time in anyone's life. So if we can at least make the studio environment as positive as possible without this is important, without compromising the rigor, you would hope that the two things go hand in hand. It can't just be a free for all. It's like, no, we're here to work, but we should have a good time while we're doing it and appreciate all the things that we do accomplish every day. And we can reflect back on it and say, Hey, you know what? That was actually better today. It might not have been my best ever, but it was better today. Or I'm making small incremental improvements. And I think that that is an important part of any process, whether you're a dancer or an artist or a doctor or a lawyer, whatever field you're in, you just always want to have some forward movement in your life. And we are, I think in general, we tend towards the negative as human beings, we tend towards the negative to find our deficiencies versus celebrating where are our assets, where are the positive attributes that we bring to every day?

Thembi (26:41):

Yeah, we can do hard things and sometimes it seems like we are conditioned, I don't know where this comes from. I guess I could investigate this on my own, but when you talk about us going towards a negative and we think about brain science and okay, it does seem like we pluck out negative things and fixate on that, even if 20 positive things are sitting right next to it. And it makes me think about the idea of rigor and this perception of right to comfort and people feeling like, well, I don't want to be uncomfortable, but rigor is uncomfortable, but the results of rigor is excellent. And so if you want to get to excellence, you have to be okay with being uncomfortable on the path to get there. And I think that sometimes we get so fixated on wanting to be comfortable the entire time. We forget how rewarding rigor can be, but I love that you still keep the environment positive, but you don't compromise on the rigor. You don't say, okay, well, we're not going to work that hard just because I want to make sure that you all feel good. So that's a really interesting thing to think about in terms of that pursuit of excellence and trying to make sure that the rigor stays involved.

Jared Redick (27:55):

And you're talking about comfort, and it's something that I reflect on quite a bit. How do you keep moving forward in your life when you find any bit of comfort? And so that's where my MFA came in. That's where the MBA comes in in terms of that. Because once you've been doing something for a long time, you have successful strategies that you can employ over and over again. Obviously you're teaching, and that is a very complex situation that you're dealing with every day because you're working with different people every day, and people are different in many respects. But how do you keep yourself feeling inspired and thoughtful and reflective and moving forward and evolving? And I think that is the big piece of, so without the rigor piece there, there's no evolution. It just becomes comfort and comfort. No one got better at their job by sitting and watching Netflix at home, unless maybe you're an actor or director and you're studying it. But if you're just enjoying that from a comfortable standpoint, if you're not challenging your own perspectives and education and intellect, then where's the growth? Where's the growth going to happen? It's not going to happen through osmosis. So we need to keep moving forward.

Thembi (29:20):

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I wonder, have any of your students questioned the centering of classical ballet as the foundation of dance, right? That's your wheelhouse. So I want to settle into that and ask, do you think it's possible? You know what, no, let's not settle into it. Let's step outside of it and look at it from outside. Do you think it's possible that ballet as the foundation of dance marginalizes the idea of this, right? Marginalizes other forms of dance as inferior to ballet? Because I think ballet is seen in a lot of ways, like Shakespeare's scene, right? By Americans specifically, this sort of view of superior literature, superior playwriting, and even the idea that one art form is better than the other or more foundational than the other. So classical ballet is a very important form of dance. And I guess ballet came about in what, the 14th, 15th century, where it first began. So there are other older dance forms, but how do you balance the perception of ballet amongst other dance forms? I feel like I asked you five questions in one, and you can choose

Jared Redick (30:37):

Which one you want. It's a deep question. And a great question is a great, and this is a great, I mean, we could spend an hour just talking. We could spend many hours just unpacking all the things

(30:49):

That are contained within that one question. And it has come up. And really that would come mostly from my contemporary students, my older contemporary students in college. But this is the MFA comes into play here as well. Where does ballet sit? Why is it considered a certain way? And so I don't think it looks down its nose at other art forms. I just think it has its own place, its own avenue, right? It's got its own lane. I think that with classical ballet training as being very, there's a precision and an exactness to that where you're talking about what's hard about ballet, what's ultimately the hard thing about classical ballet is it all is the whole form moves through what's considered turnout. So you're rotating your feet outwards. And so to develop those muscles to hold that rotation, that turnout is not natural to the human body necessarily, right?

(31:48):

That's why it's not. It's not for every person from the standpoint of being able to physically have that rotation in their hip sockets, for instance. Not that ballet is not for everybody, but it's really challenging when you're talking at the upper levels of being a professional. There's certain physical attributes that need to be in place to do that. So I think refining that movement vocabulary and the mechanics of that is very challenging for that way. And it sculpts the body a certain way. I don't think that it is superior to any other dance form at all. Absolutely not. But we do adhere at School of the Arts. We definitely, if you come for contemporary, you have to also take ballet classes and vice versa, our ballet students are taking contemporary because each area informs other. So I mean, we could get very deep into what that is. I don't subscribe to the idea that it is the superior art form or mode of movement. It is just another mode of movement. It's a movement vocabulary and technique, and there's methodology that supports it. I do think it gives dancers in general, more formally trained dancers. It gives them a broader range of vocabulary possibilities because you're working in that rotation and that turnout and developing those muscles in that way. But again, it's not a superior art form, it's just another way of moving.

Thembi (33:20):

Do you think that the lay people who are not ballet dancers are influenced by it because we don't understand it well enough? Maybe. Is that where the MFA part comes in where you are able to articulate it to the lay person? Because we certainly can't do the physical aspect of it, and we don't understand what we're looking at. We just know, wow, that's really beautiful. I'm very moved by that. But we don't know the pieces that come together to make that. Do you feel like the academic aspect of your work maybe helps you help us understand that?

Jared Redick (33:55):

Well, I would hope so. I would hope. And that's where you have to have supporting supplemental education for audiences, for instance, I think the arts in general take different approaches to art, their art, the individual artist's, art work. Some artists absolutely do not want to say anything about their art. They just want to create it and let the audience interpret it. But I think bigger companies or companies in general, they almost have a responsibility to help educate the audiences is this is not just an entertainment spectacle, but it's actually trying to say something and communicate something to the audience. And so I think if we find ways to educate our audiences, they'll have a greater appreciation. I always like to tell the story of, I was very fortunate to be in Paris, and I went to one of the museums, but in this particular time, I hired a guide to take me through the museum, and this was an art historian took me through the museum.

(34:59):

We saw maybe one 20th of the pieces of art that were there, but she took me on this journey through the museum, and it absolutely blew my mind and opened up my perspective about what art was doing through the time period that she took us through. And I thought, I love that experience so much, and I would love to do more of that in the dance field, for instance, because it just opens your mind. It's not just something it can be, it can be something that's just beautiful and it's amazing, and the dancers are so incredibly athletic, but when we're presenting more substantial works of art, and not every ballet is going to be the most challenging work of art, but when we're in those places, wouldn't it be great if the audience really came to that with more questions and more understanding so that they could really delve more deeply into it? And you really feel more fulfilled, right? It's like the difference between, I dunno, eating garnishes versus the main course. You really feel nourished after you've experienced that.

Thembi (36:09):

Yes, that's a really, really good point. And I also think about how it's not the fault of arts practitioners of today and arts presenters of today, but the fact of the matter is we have far less exposure to the arts as children in schools, and that influences people's knowledge of and awareness of the various art forms. Just the familiarity isn't there. And so there's really not a baseline a lot of times. So that education, I feel like becomes way more important because there's certain assumptions of understanding that you can't even really make in presenting arts nowadays. So that's really great.

Jared Redick (36:47):

And that's a great point. I mean, that is a great point about arts in schools. And just so you understand, how do you view it? How as an audience member, do you view all the variety of different art forms, whether it's music or dance or theater or film or whatever? How do you view that? Not critically necessarily, but how can you really appreciate what's going on there up on? Again, you can just appreciate it just for what it is on the surface, but how could you delve a little deeper? And really what you're getting at is where we're talking about not just school funding and the politics around all the politics around schools right now or as they've been for the last 20, 30 years, but also providing equitable access and opportunity to the arts. And there's lots of challenges within those areas as well.

Thembi (37:40):

Yeah, and the fact of the matter is, earlier in our conversation, you talked about feeling a responsibility as an artist, but as much as any artist can feel responsible for giving back and contributing in terms of telling the story of the work that they do and helping others excel in their field, there is probably a lot more that we all can do as individuals to prioritize the arts. I mean, not to get on a soapbox, but I think people have a strong relationship with sports as something that they deem is really important to get their kids into. They have this understanding of like, oh, even if my kid's not going to be a professional athlete, I want to make sure my kid gets involved in some sort of sport as they're growing up, just so they can learn teamwork, highest effort, excellence. They have that in their minds, but for some reason, as many people don't see the arts in that same way, it's like arts should always be involved in our kids' lives.

(38:36):

And that's something that I've had conversations with people and we're like, do the arts just not have as good a PR machine as sports? What's the deal? But the bottom line is we just have to keep moving forward with doing the work that we do and hoping that eventually people see that value. So I am glad that you're a part of that. I wonder though, to that end, what kinds of conversations are you having with your colleagues about arts and culture in this country in the world? Just what kinds of general conversations are you having in terms of when you're at conferences, when you are having conversations with your counterparts who are maybe leaders at prestigious art schools like yourself and people who are in leadership positions, what are the kinds of conversations are you having about where you want to take the form, where you want to take the arts? And we can just say in the United States.

Jared Redick (39:29):

Yeah, that's good. I mean, we always have an eye to Europe. We have an eye to what's going on globally, far beyond Europe as well. What's happening in the field of the arts. I think we talk a lot about everybody. We talk a lot about funding because if you have the resources you can produce, that's just the name of the game. I mean, if you have the resources, so how do you create the funding? And I think if you have a product, which is what we do, whether you're in education, the product is the education. If in a company, then the product is the performances, how do you have something that connects with people, right? Because that's ultimately what we're doing in the arts. We are trying to inspire and elevate everyone's lived experience, and we bring joy to the hopefully joy. We can certainly bring drama and sadness and tragedy onto the stages, but we hope to inform and connect with a deeper part of the human existence.

(40:32):

You can cut through some of the things. You don't have to spell out what someone's supposed to feel about something that they can connect to connect with the art emotionally. So I think the broader questions around the arts right now are how do we keep moving this forward? I mean, really the big question is everybody right now is how do these forms, these older art forms, stay relevant in the age of the digital age and now the age of AI too? I mean, AI is still a ways away from significantly impacting directly live performance, but it is happening. There are lots of ways that AI can support it and technology can support the arts, but how do we stay relevant when so many people, not just just kids, all of us are on our screens. How is that in-person and living color experience impacting people?

(41:30):

So that's a big question, and that has always been the question as technology, as society moves forward, and certainly I think with technology moving forward as it is when we have so much screen time, how do we go out and see a live performance? How do we interact with each other? And I do love what you said about sports, that people go there because there's a physical element to it. So physically, you're keeping your body moving and you're learning to work with other people and take direction. Dance is exactly the same. I think ultimately where we diverge, and I'm not going to get on a soapbox about this, is capitalism and sports. Sports have that big payday at the end, the retirement, you get a contract in the NFL, you get a big signing bonus. You're good. That does not exist in the art world, except for you have to be Lin-Manuel Miranda and do Hamilton. You have to do something at that level.

Thembi (42:25):

That's a good point. I didn't think about that. But you're right. Maybe there's a little nugget in the back of their mind. I mean, you could get a big payday. That's true. And people spend a lot of money on sports. People don't wear dancers jerseys. Maybe we need to look at sports and how do we get franchise dancers more popular? How do we get them some jerseys or something that people can buy and wear?

Jared Redick (42:50):

Yeah. Well, and if we're going to be real about the conversation, who are the highest paid people in academia? It's not the presidents and chancellors of the universities,

Thembi (43:00):

It's the sports coaches. There you

Jared Redick (43:01):

Go.

Thembi (43:02):

Yep.

Jared Redick (43:04):

There it is. There it is.

Thembi (43:07):

Interesting. Anyway, no, it's a good point. Okay. But that's interesting because it also just makes me think about, you said capitalism. So not that we're on a soapbox, but it does make me wonder about the idea of the capitalist structure. So you say that the big conversations include funding. That's one of the bigger conversations you're having and how to adjust to what I'm going to assume are shrinking live audiences, right? Because that's certainly an issue in theater, and I'm going to assume it's in other areas of the arts. And I just wonder, do we have such a capitalist mindset as a body, not as individuals, but as a body that we worry when it seems like our audiences are getting smaller? Well, is it not sort of a natural evolution if there's more tech and more screens than fewer people are going to show up in person?

(44:02):

And we know that a lot of the audiences for this are aging out, and so they're stepping away for a number of obvious reasons as they get older. So the question I have is, do we think maybe if we started to target, not target, because then that goes back into capitalism. If we started to think about smaller audiences and saying, okay, our audiences are going to be smaller, how do we create for those smaller audiences? Because everybody's canon is built on work that had a whole different set of circumstances around the work when it was created in the first place. So when we're creating new work, do you think it's worth it to think, alright, our audiences are smaller, let's create for the smaller audience and assume that that's just going to be how it is from now on?

Jared Redick (44:51):

Yeah, I mean, we could certainly look at that, but again, you get into a numbers game with that, right? Because dancers have a limited capacity to do number of performances. So

(45:01):

Smaller audiences, and then making sure you can pay for the theater, the crew, the dancers, the administrative staff, everybody around it. So it becomes an economy of scale really is what you're looking at. Now, that's not to say that there aren't other ways to monetize versus just being ticket sales. And I think that's where nonprofit designations are really helpful. So not to get into the real business aspects of that, we do need to think differently. They said that when TV came along that that's going to kill live sports and all of that. And look, people still go to the games. There's

(45:42):

40,000 people in a stadium, and then it's still televised to millions of people as well. So it's just figuring out how do you connect with your audiences? And the one example that I love to give, or what I like to talk about, and I always mull this organization around in my mind, is I look at Cirque de Soleil. So here's Cirque de Soleil who started, I think in the eighties, sometime in the eighties, and they took a traditional form of circus and they made it something incredibly creative. And now they're a for-profit engine or business. Their business model is for profit, but they are so incredibly creative. I love, I just saw a show in Montreal over the summer and the shows, yes, they have kind of their own formula of what they do, but I could tell because I hadn't seen a show in probably five or 10 years that it evolves. They use different technology in the shows even though they're live performers. So I look at them and they're a for-profit organization, and

(46:53):

They continue to create and they produce videos and all these things. So I think that the blending of that art is not supposed to be a commercial enterprise. It's almost the antithesis of a commercial enterprise. It's not there to generate a profit. It is there to inspire and elevate people or have people think differently about their lives. So it's not that, but we're in a situation where how do you survive to create the, the old adage of it being a starving artist. Now no one can survive and create their art if they're starving and they can't pay their rent and they can't feed themselves. So where is that support going to come from? So I think these are the questions that I think about, right? When I'm training my dancers and I'm working, either I'm training dancers or I'm working with professionals, the broader picture of where do the arts go, how do we exist in this capitalist structure and maintain the integrity and the authenticity of really unique artistic voices.

Thembi (47:57):

Such an important question, and I'm glad that you're asking it. I'm glad that you're allowing your students to witness it because we have to keep talking about it in order for anything to shift. So what's next for you? I know you're working on the MBA, I'm sure that's a big part of your day-to-day life, but is there something in particular that you're excited about these days?

Jared Redick (48:19):

Oh, there's always something to be excited about. If you can't find something, that'ss a problem, right? So I think the MBA is the long term and still have about a year and a half in that. But I do have, there is a film that I'm working on that's in development. I'm consulting on another film project, and I'm about to present some work with my students. So that's kind of occupying my mind. And I just had, just this last week, I had a different business idea for the arts. Nothing I could share at this point, but I was like, Hey, there's actually this, I found something where I am thinking I found something that there's a real need on two sides of an equation. I was like, so I was like, okay, this might be something that would be really helpful to the people who would be impacted by it. Those are the kinds of things I'm thinking about.

Thembi (49:10):

I'm going to ask one question.

Jared Redick (49:11):

Yes.

Thembi (49:12):

Does it involve technology?

Jared Redick (49:14):

Yes, it does. A thousand percent, yes.

Thembi (49:17):

Excellent. That's all I needed to hear. That makes me very happy.

Jared Redick (49:21):

Yeah, I mean, we've got to leverage technology. We've got to use it, and AI is a great tool, and I know there are lots of people who, for ethical reasons, it's like I cannot involve myself with ai, whether it's an environmental issue or if it's other ethical issues. But it's here. It's the genie's out of the bottle, and it's a wonderful tool, but it is a tool and it cannot start making decisions for us, right? There needs to be human beings making those decisions.

Thembi (49:52):

Agreed. Well, this has been a really wonderful conversation, Jared. I've so enjoyed getting to know a little bit more about you and hearing your insights on your work and the world as it relates to your work, and I just want to thank you again for coming to talk to me on keyboard.

Jared Redick (50:07):

Well, thanks for having me, Tammy. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you for the last hour and getting into all the different areas and the corners of dance and ballet.

Thembi (50:19):

Thank you so much. 'Til next time...