Former FBI Assistant Director of Counterintelligence Frank Figliuzzi on Thriving Amidst Threats and Turmoil

Step inside the mind of Frank Figliuzzi, former FBI Assistant Director for Counterintelligence, as he reveals the intricate web of America's national security and the shadowy domain of highway serial killers. Our conversation travels back to his early counterterrorism days in Atlanta, weaving through the creation of an economic espionage unit, to his profound work with a Crimes Against Children squad. Frank's deep dive into his recent book, "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers," emerges as a chilling exploration of a hidden threat on America's roads, offering an unprecedented look at his extensive research and the gripping realities of life on the long haul.

The art of adaptation in leadership is a golden thread throughout this episode, as Frank and I reflect on the anthrax attacks and the FBI's evidence response team's swift pivot to master a bio-terror crime scene. This discussion illuminates the critical importance of agility and continuous learning in high-stress situations, where quick thinking is not just an asset—it's a necessity. The podcast also peels back the curtain on the psychological endurance needed not only for law enforcement but also for navigating an election season brimming with unpredictability.

As the media landscape becomes increasingly polarized, understanding bias and maintaining a balanced perspective is more crucial than ever. The conversation shifts to the impact of media consumption on our views and the imperative to sift through the noise for the truth. Additionally, we delve into the delicate balance between security and civil liberties in the face of potential domestic terror legislation, a topic fraught with implications for the future of American democracy. Listen in for an episode rich with insight, where the stakes couldn't be higher, and the topics couldn't be more timely.

Frank's new book, "Long Haul: Hunting the Highway Serial Killers" is available for pre-order, now...and will start shipping out on May, 28th 2024. Be sure and pre-order your copy now!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast, where stories about the power of focus and resilience are revealed by the people who live those stories and now the host of the Jack Hopkins Show podcast, jack Hopkins.

Speaker 2: 0:27

Hey, welcome to the Jack Hopkins Show podcast. I'm your host, jack Hopkins. I'm excited to introduce the guest for today's episode, mr Frank Figliuzzi. Frank is the former assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI. Frank was previously the special agent in charge of the FBI's Cleveland division, and that included all of northern Ohio and all of the major cities, so we had Cleveland, toledo, youngstown, akron and Canton Ohio Toledo, youngstown, akron and Canton, ohio. Following his service to the FBI, frank joined General Electric GE and served for five years as Assistant Chief Security Officer for Investigations, workplace violence prevention and special event security for GE's 300,000 employees in 180 countries.

Speaker 2: 1:34

Frank is currently a frequent national security contributor for NBC and MSNBC and I'm sure you've seen his face and heard his voice before, because if it's something that applies to national security in the United States of America, you can bet you've seen and or heard Frank talking about this and sharing his many years of expertise. There's something else about Frank, however, and this applies to something that's getting ready to happen here in just a couple of weeks. That's right. Frank has a new book coming out, long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers. You can imagine the insight that a former FBI agent has into serial killings and the more I learn about these highway killings involving long-haul truckers. It is an extremely fascinating subject. That book comes out, I believe, may 28th, but I know how you can find out for sure. You can go to amazoncom and look and it can be pre-ordered now. I I know you can get this right now, or you can place your order right now and then when it is released which again, I think is May 28th, could be May 22nd, it doesn't matter Just go ahead and pre-order now and then, when it is ready, it'll be shipped to you immediately and then, when it is ready, it'll be shipped to you immediately.

Speaker 2: 3:26

Let's dive right into this fascinating conversation that I have with Frank Figliuzzi and all of the expertise he has to share. Okay, frank, I've been looking forward to this. I've got a lot of questions and the questions that I have you are just the man to answer those questions. So welcome. Let's hope so, Jack. I'll do my best. Can you start by just giving us a walk through your FBI career, just kind of hit on the key points throughout, yeah that's always a loaded question when you're talking to somebody who literally wrote a book about his career.

Speaker 3: 4:13

That's a shameless plug for the FBI way inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence, which came out three years ago and, to my utter amazement, became a national bestseller. But yeah, I'll run through the highlights and even maybe some lowlights. But you know, it was an adventure of a lifetime being an FBI special agent for 25 years. You know it's one of these things where kids often dream about playing outfield for the Yankees or being an astronaut. And I did all that when I was younger. But you know I, as as an older kid, I wanted to be an FBI agent and it happened.

Speaker 3: 4:52

It happened I came in through the New Haven Connecticut field office. I was raised and educated in Connecticut but went to law school at UConn and got some nice prosecuting job offers. But, you know, the FBI came along and said well, you know, yeah, you could prosecute, but we're going to give you a gun and a badge and your own caseload and you're going to have to hit the streets and figure it out. And I said, yeah, that's for me, let's do it. And of course they sent a.

Speaker 3: 5:18

Connecticut, yankee, right after the academy, to Atlanta, georgia. I had never been to the South and I think they do that stuff on purpose. I thought, you know, I thought I was on a different planet down there. But it was a good, active office. I worked counter-intel, counter-terrorism back then, did some civil rights investigations, which there was no shortage of in Atlanta, found myself attending a Klan rally in Atlanta, georgia, to work, you know, to work domestic terror and make sure nobody got out of hand. And I was even the case agent on a World Series in Atlanta while I was there. That was special event security. That was pretty cool. And also case agent on Democratic National Convention that was held in Atlanta. So lots of exposure.

Speaker 3: 6:11

Big city got promoted to headquarters and economic espionage brand new economic espionage unit. This was after the Berlin Wall fell and we were scratching our heads figuring out how do you do counterintelligence today when maybe now think how naive this was, maybe Russia's not going to be the enemy moving forward. And so we had a new unit and we learned that everybody would spy on us, almost everybody, not our closest allies, but almost everyone else would spy on us for economic reasons. And that was pretty cool. Figuring out how to do post-Cold War counterintel, counterespionage, when it's all about the economy. So built up that program with a lot of good folks and then got my first squad in the field. That was in the San Francisco division, but more importantly, it was a resident agency, a small satellite office in Palo Alto that was dedicated exclusively to counterintel and it's the only resident agency in the FBI that does nothing but counterintelligence. Why? Because of Silicon Valley. Every foreign intel service in the world is operating in Silicon Valley trying to steal the latest technology and biopharma, by the way, as well as Interesting. So lots of, lots of great action there.

Speaker 3: 7:35

Operationally, I also moved up to San Francisco proper and took a squad near the end of my tenure there, one of the only in the bureau at the time. That was crimes against children and absolutely without a doubt, jack, the most disturbing work I had ever done in my life, and I had young kids at the time. This is, you know we're talking child pornography possession, distribution, production, unsolved child abductions. It was horrific work and God bless the agents, the men and women who do that every day. It's very rough work. From there went to headquarters, ran an internal affairs office we call the Office of Professional Responsibility Great training for leadership when you want to learn where the mistakes can be made, what not to do right and how the FBI handles, very rigorously addresses poor judgment and misconduct by FBI employees. So I had a piece of that Moved to the number two position in Miamiami, the fifth largest office in the country, and while I was there, everybody remembers where they were for 9 11.

Speaker 3: 8:50

But I was in miami and fbi miami and, oh gosh, within less than an hour we learned that the flight manifesto, those crashed flights lights, contained 14 names. 14 of the 19 hijackers came from South Florida and our backyard and we didn't have time for a lot of hand wringing and introspection at the time. We shut everything down, as the entire FBI did, and we worked nothing but what in God's name happened here? Who are these guys, where did they live? And you know, typically, jack, the FBI is great at telling you what happened. After it happened, we could tell you hey, mohammed Atta bought a Slurpee with a credit card at 7-Eleven on this date and time, but that didn't help us prevent what happened and we had to turn into a true intelligence agency, a true part of the US Intel community. Yes, we're great investigators, but we need to be predictive analysts to stop them right. So I was part of that transition, as many of us were, from straight up investigative agency to a true intelligence driven agency. Now, within days of 9-11, here we are, working 24-7, no sleep. We're hitting all of the apartments and everywhere that these guys were.

Speaker 3: 10:12

I get a phone call from the medical director of Palm Beach County and she says Frank, we have a patient in a hospital here who appears to be dying from anthrax. And this, jack, was the first anthrax homicide in the history of the United States. You remember the white powder letters Indeed? Well, this man was an employee and boy. This is you want to talk about topical. This man was an employee of the tabloid newspapers of America Media Incorporated, headquartered in Boca Raton, florida. That's where he had been to work and that's where we determined he was exposed to a lethal dose of anthrax. And you know who the head of America Media Incorporated is. He's in the news now because he's testifying in the Trump trial in New York. That's David Pecker. And we had contact with David Pecker. But we had to do.

Speaker 3: 11:10

I was the on-scene commander for the largest hazardous materials crime scene in the history of the FBI, three-story building, 60,000 square feet. Our evidence team had to suit up in hazmat suits and, for the first time, attempt to collect microscopic anthrax spores for evidence, figure out where it came from, where it entered the building, how it killed the man. And you know, out of courtesy, we called our. The head of our evidence team called David Pecker. At home we of course had closed the building down with the county medical department and we said Mr Packer, we're going in, we're going into your building.

Speaker 3: 11:51

We can't promise anything but, out of courtesy, we'd like to ask you if there's anything that's really, really of value to you that you'd like us to try and save and maybe decontaminate. And we'll try to get it from your office and said, yes, those two items there were two items only were a photograph of elvis presley in his coffin and an image of something called bat boy, a bat man creature that was featured on the cover of one of the tabloid newspapers. Those were the two precious possessions that he had to have back. Yeah, I'll never forget that. I mean, if you think about, you know your house is burning and you get to grab a couple of things, you know really, oh, okay, I remember seeing the image of Bat Boy on the newsstands as well.

Speaker 3: 12:49

Yeah, it's something you can't block from your mind, jack. It's forever there. Yeah, don't ask me why. Who knows how much those things were worth, but anyway that became part of a much larger, of course, anthrax investigation across the United States because people were getting those letters Congress, senate. A woman died in Connecticut simply because her mail was next to contaminated mail and she opened it. We were all washing our hands, we all went on Cipro because the military, the military antidote for anthrax is Cipro for 30 days. That was no fun. I won't get into details on that 30 days, but I will. I will tell you it's also. It makes you extremely photosensitive, yes, and so the hot South Florida sun out in that parking lot where the command post was, I'd step out of my command post and I just this gets. I get flash burns from the Cipro. I got put.

Speaker 3: 14:00

I got moved from white collar crime branch to the Joint Terrorism Task Force. I led that in Miami. Nine squads in Miami working nothing but counterterrorism Al Qaeda squad, hamas, hezbollah, domestic terror squad. We had everything there. And I then got promoted to a senior executive position as inspector. Bob Mueller was the director. He then appointed me chief inspector of the FBI that's a fancy word for chief auditor. You know we figure out where the problems are and try to fix them.

Speaker 3: 14:38

Then got my own field office command. I was the special agent in charge of Cleveland division. I had all of northern Ohio, you know the golden garden spots like Akron, canton, toledo, youngstown, and I will tell you this, it was my first foray into the Midwest, so to speak, to the extent that Ohio is Midwest, and the people, the work ethic was amazing and I thought it was just a great place, a great place to work and live. After that four years of leading that field office I was promoted to the head of counterintelligence back at headquarters and retired as the AD for counterintel. And you know that's a real kick for me, because I started my career in counterintelligence in Atlanta and I ended my career as head of counterintel and I thought that was, that was pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 15:31

That's such a varied and fascinating career path that you had, and one I'm sure very few people in the FBI get to experience one holding those positions. A couple of questions about some of the things that you said when you were in Florida, and the one particular. I think it was the Anthrax case where you were in charge. You said you know three-story building full of people and you were running the show. What can you tell me about the difference between leadership on that level, or difference and or similarities, leadership on that level and leadership over a 15-man department? How did you approach that differently, or did you approach those in similar ways in some aspects? Yeah, so I mean. A couple of observations.

Speaker 3: 16:23

I talk about this in great detail. In the FBI way book there's a whole chapter that talks about consistency. And you might say, frank, why did you include the anthrax story in a chapter called consistency? It's because I think, as humans, jack, we have a tendency to flip out when something unprecedented is happening. Never seen this before, never had an anthrax murder before.

Speaker 3: 16:52

We don't know how to do this. Oh my God, the sky is falling and the problem is in the FBI. Unprecedented things happen a lot, and so if you flip out every time, something happens that you've never seen before, you're going to be in trouble. And what I tell people and mention in the book is's evidence response team, who's very talented. And I said look, we've got an anthrax, anthrax filled building and can you do this? And he looked at me and he said, yeah, yeah, we can do it. And the concept there is the team was trained in hazardous materials environments Right, mostly especially in Miami. Oh, probably for a drug lab, right, but hey, you're trained to suit up. Use positive air pressure respirators. We know how to do that, number one. Number two do we know how to work a crime scene? Yeah, we absolutely do. Have we worked homicide scenes before? Yes, we have. So what we have here is a hazmat murder crime scene. Yes, so we can do it. And that's what I tell people to do, even on a national level.

Speaker 3: 18:17

Right now, people are flipping out, understandably, about our country, domestic terrorism, a president who's facing four criminal trials, who's you know former president, who's the front runner for his party right now. Are we going to make it? What do we do? Is there a new way? We have to. And I tell people look, don't run away and abandon democratic principles, the constitution, the rule of law, three equal branches of government. It got us this far. We've got to stick to that and we will eventually get through this. Things might look a little different, you know. Similarly, I tell people when scientists are running an experiment and it's going south on them, it's not what they expected. They don't run away from sound scientific method, they double down on the scientific method so that at the end of the day they can say look, we did this right and by the book and here's what happened. So you know, that's what I tell folks.

Speaker 3: 19:19

Leadership it's interesting because the higher up you go in leadership, as you know, the less of a subject matter expert you need to be and the more you need to know how to work with people and develop relationships. So this varies throughout your career. If you're, you know your first squad ever and it's in Silicon Valley and it's counterintel. You better know economic espionage, backwards and forwards. But as you climb up the ranks, you're often running things that you've never actually worked before.

Speaker 3: 19:53

As a case agent, you've got to rely on people and you've got to just establish standard practices, ask a lot of questions, advocate for your people, trust your gut. But I will say this it was baptism by fire for anthrax because there were no experts, and so you know. And yes, I'm in charge. But I also had to get in the weeds Jack on science quickly, and thank God we had PhD microbiologists who came in from the FBI laboratory to get me smart on this. Because one day and this is a story in the book as well I get a phone call from a very high ranking official at FBI headquarters. It's early morning, I haven't even had my coffee in the command post yet and he says Frank Frank, the White House is on the line and they have questions for you about the techniques you're using in the building. Can you answer these questions? And I'm like, hey, if I can't answer these questions, no one can answer these questions. This is my crime scene. So this White.

Speaker 3: 21:03

House science advisor gets on the line. She asked me a series of very scientific questions. Now, mind you, I was an English lit major in college and a law school graduate, right Right. And she's asking me about. You know how we're doing this? And I got it all right. I got it all right. She was satisfied. Then she hung up Interesting.

Speaker 2: 21:29

When you were talking about that, I was reminded of a comment that a good friend of mine. I was reminded of a comment that a good friend of mine who's now a retired Navy SEAL and a comment that he made one time about how he viewed himself when he was serving in the teams. He said you had to become an expert on becoming an expert in a short amount of time, and so that sounds fairly similar to what you just described.

Speaker 3: 22:01

Absolutely right. And you know what I love that about the FBI job? Because, again, similarly, when I was promoted to Miami in one of the number two positions it's called Assistant Special Agent in Charge, asac and I had put in for the National Security Branch because that's what I know. I get there and the SAC, who leads the whole office, he goes. Oh yeah, frank, I'm going to give you the White Collar Crime Branch. And I said, hey, Bob, not an expert on white collar crime, my friend, because now you got talented supervisors that will work for you. You'll figure it out, and I did, and I was out of my comfort zone and I loved it. I mean, if you told me I'd develop an interest in healthcare fraud, corruption, money laundering, financial fraud and securities and commodities pump and dump schemes, we had all of that and uh, yeah, I figured it out with lots of help.

Speaker 2: 23:04

You sound like or it sounds like that you and I have at least this one thing in common, and that is you love to learn, you you love to be expanding your horizons, and maybe there's something that you hear. This is kind of how it works for me I'll be watching the news or something, and they'll take it up to a point to where I've got the base knowledge to know what they're talking about, to that point. But then they go a step beyond and I get kind of excited because I know, as soon as I get up, I'm going to go find out what they were talking about and add that to what I already knew, and that sounds like that's a key in being an FBI agent.

Speaker 3: 23:48

For sure, and you and I are similar on that. And yes, that natural inquisitiveness, the tenacity to keep going until you learn everything you need to learn, is what they help start to screen for during the application process for FBI employees, for FBI agents particularly, and you know, to give you an example, it drove me. I've got this second book coming out. It's called Long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers. It's about an FBI, real life FBI program to deal with the fact that 850 women, mostly sex trafficked women, have been murdered along our nation's highways and mostly by long haul truckers. So when I heard about this initiative, jack, that my first instinct was I've got to learn more about this.

Speaker 3: 24:45

I was embarrassed that in 25 years in the FBI I was not aware of this initiative and I wanted to get the word out. But, as you say, I wanted to learn. So what did I do? People thought I was crazy. I wanted to learn the cultures of trucking, trafficking and behavioral analysis, and so I rode over 2,000 miles with a long-haul trucker a flatbed long-haul trucker slept in that top bunk in the sleeper berth behind in the cab of the truck, did everything he did and learned how trucking, modern day trucking, works today, points of securement, weight distribution, how, how weigh ins work and the whole learning that it takes over $1,000 to fill your tanks up at the rest stop all of that so I could learn more about what's going on on the road.

Speaker 3: 25:41

I talked to the top experts in the country on human trafficking, sex trafficking on a street and truck stop level. I talked to victims who have come out of trafficking and survived encounters with long haul truckers, visited help centers for ladies trying to get out of that life, and then talked to the top experts in crime analysis at the FBI and at the state level who happened to be women and I think, no coincidence there. They are tenacious on getting this thing figured out, and so that's how I prepared for the book. It took over a year of research.

Speaker 2: 26:22

That's one thing. I knew this. I had read this about your preparation for the book Long Haul, and that's one of the things I really like about you. And again, it's something that I have done, although not in that area, with truck driving. But you know, and I've found out that if you really want to know something, live it for a little while, you'll know it, and you'll know it at the cellular level and not just cognitively. So would your book have been the book that it is now without that experience?

Speaker 3: 27:09

No, I have to learn by doing when I can. And I don't. You know. Yes, could I have written the book by talking to people on the telephone, maybe, yeah, would I have any street credibility? No, no, would I be pretending you know. The last thing I want to do is pretend that I know how someone's career works. So you know, and I'm careful, even with this book, I'll be very careful that I'm not going to pretend that 2,000 miles of riding teaches me what the career of trucking is like. And for sure I can tell you that talking to highly traumatized female victims of sex trafficking doesn't mean that I understand their trauma, but it means that I know where they're coming from, their trauma. But it means that I know where they're coming from. And I felt the trauma when they conveyed theirs to me. And I hope I convey that in the book.

Speaker 3: 28:04

And I never wanted to write a book and just say here's a horrible problem that scares the hell out of you, have a nice day. I wanted to offer solutions and things I learned. So you know, without getting into detail prematurely, the book wraps up with a tremendous amount of discussion on hey, what's the story here? Nature or nurture? Are people attracted to long haul trucking because they have proclivities of violence and killing. Is it manufactured inside that cab over very unhealthy lifestyle? How does a young lady from the Midwest fall into the trap of trafficking? When you think it won't happen to your family, it does happen. So yeah, I had to write a book with some credibility.

Speaker 2: 28:55

And I guess it's okay to say I saw this, I believe, on Amazon May 28th. Is that the release date of this book?

Speaker 3: 29:03

That's correct. It's available now for pre-order. And you know, we just talked a lot about learning, right? So now two books under my belt. I have learned an awful lot about the publishing industry Some good, some not so good. But one of the things I've learned is pre-orders are all about success today because the bestseller lists are monitoring pre-orders. Oh OK, You're already getting traction. So that's why I tell people yes, it's out May 28th, but but comma, you can order it right now on Amazon or anywhere else you get Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 29:42

And I might add, too, that I for about any book that I buy, and this applies to those that have been out for 10 years. I would have liked to have had it earlier. So, on a book that's in pre-order, I'm one of those. As soon as it's ready to be pumped out, I want it on my doorstep as soon as possible. So, to anybody thinking about this book or is interested in this, May 28th, but you don't have to wait. You can go ahead and pre-order now.

Speaker 3: 30:15

Yeah. And if you're like me, jack, when you hear about a book that intrigues you, you'll forget about it and you'll go oh yeah, I'll wait, when that comes out, I'll order it, and then I forget. So you know, if you're getting forgetful, you just go ahead and check it out and get it. Yeah, we're getting interest. We're getting interest from Hollywood types already for this. I will be the big launch for this. Jack will be in Nashville the last weekend of May at a thing called CrimeCon. Another thing I've learned about that I didn't know existed was that twice a year of big fans of true crime gather once a year, always in Las Vegas, and then once a year always somewhere else. This will be at Nashville Opryland Resort Hotel, and 5,000 of my closest true crime fans and.

Speaker 3: 31:14

I'll be presenting the book.

Speaker 2: 31:28

I did not know that and that's fascinating because I would have to think because this seems to be like Comic-Con and the different things I think you find this everywhere safe to assume that within that really deeply committed fan base, that that will be at crime con, that these people read this stuff, watch this stuff and that some of them are probably, with no formal training, pretty good detectives.

Speaker 3: 31:53

Oh, that's an understatement, jack. Yeah for sure. And they will know more about certain murders featured in my book than I probably know. And you may not know that there are hundreds of true crime podcasts dedicated to solving unsolved crimes or going over the investigative files and trying to figure out who did it. So, and I'm now really it's funny I'm now entering that world. You know baptism by fire. I lived true crime for 25 years as an FBI agent, but I didn't go home and turn on a true crime TV show or read a true crime book. I had enough of that. But here I am diving into this true crime community and they're great.

Speaker 2: 32:45

They're great folks who really know their stuff. That is kind of a twist to think about the side that you came from and the side that you are on now and the side that you are on now, and I can only imagine that that's kind of the perfect marriage in the totality, because when you can take each side of the coin, it only broadens your own abilities and your own thinking and makes for better writing, better speaking, and makes for better writing, better speaking. So yeah, that's kind of a unique opportunity for, I guess, anyone that would leave their profession but then immerse themselves in educating others.

Speaker 3: 33:31

So yeah, that's- it's been a nice way to. I never use the word retire. Yeah, that's, it's been a nice way to. You know, I never use the word retire, jack, because you know I've got my exclusive relationship with NBC News and MSNBC. I'm in my seventh year with them, which has flown by.

Speaker 3: 33:49

I wish sometimes my services were not needed to explain the national security threats we're facing, not needed to explain the national security threats we're facing, and you know the highly polarized world we live in is just really disturbing. I had a five-year stint, after I retired from the FBI, at a major Fortune 100 global company. That was a nice transition for me from the FBI because you know know the FBI is kind of the 500 pound gorilla in law enforcement and I don't know what you do after that a lot of people struggle with, with that loss of mission. And I went with a company deliberately that was so huge and so global that my job approximated my job in the FBI in terms of corporate security, intellectual property, trade secrets, theft, protecting our secrets, protecting our people and places around the world really hard places that we had a presence in and you know it was the right choice there.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Really filled that void. Maybe that had been created. It helped.

Speaker 3: 35:08

It helped, and now on TV I get to kind of stay in the game by having to stay current on security threats and trying to help explain those to viewers.

Speaker 2: 35:21

And how nice is it? I'm assuming, I guess, that it's nice or kind of freeing, as someone who's no longer working within the restraints of FBI policy and can speak to things in a way that you couldn't have as an FBI agent, oh sure, well, I got to tell you.

Speaker 3: 35:46

The fact that I spent much of my career working classified matters some extremely classified, not really talking a lot about the counterintelligence aspects of my career Now I'm on national television regularly is mind blowing to me. I could never have predicted that I'd have to be on TV talking about the Russia threat, the China threat, and trying to do it, you know, in a non classified manner, of course. But here we are and I hope I'm fulfilling a role. There's a downside here, which is, you know, talking about our polarized society, people tend to stick to one news network. Get their. You know they refuse to watch.

Speaker 3: 36:29

I've literally had people tell me I cannot watch MSNBC and I say tell me why? Because I make a point of flipping over to Fox. So what's your issue? It's fake news, it's fake news, it's fake. Well, I don't think I would be affiliated with fake news, I would walk away. But I urge those people to spend an hour a week An hour a week, you could do it in 15 minute increments if you can tolerate it and on some other network and see how the other side is thinking and presenting things, how editorial decisions are made, how you know, sometimes they'll cover the same story but an entirely different way. But more often the networks will choose to not cover things that they feel don't help their narrative, and that's sad. That's sad, but there are people who think well, frank, you must be some left wing liberal Because you're on MSNBC and I I say you know, people make their judgments Right. If you listen to me, you'll see. I'm talking about national security. I am not talking about politics.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Right. I've heard that same pushback before when I've mentioned I've just freely mentioned or posted on social media that I've always felt it was important to kind of jump around the channels. And for this reason I do it because I'm viewing the process like a scientist might, or maybe an anthropologist that there's a new type of skull that's been found right Now. Maybe your whole life has been focused on Homo sapiens, but now all of a sudden we've got this new thing. And it's not that I'm abandoning Homo sapiens, but I see that it might fit in and offer something to my already established field of study. I look at even the lies that I hear. I look at them as potential pieces of a puzzle that can help me understand the truth even more clearly. You know, sometimes you have to have that opposite side of it to really flesh out. So I thank you for bringing that up, because I do think that's important.

Speaker 3: 38:55

I think if we're ever going to understand each other at all, we've got to figure out how we're all thinking, and I don't want anybody to think that I can have any tolerance for outright lies, which happened on Fox after about, you know, 5pm, but I'll give you an example where I started really getting into an area because I was flipping channels and that's. That's the border crisis. And, by the way, I've lived in my life. I've lived in two, two southern border states as close as 60 miles away from the Mexican border, and let me tell you something.

Speaker 3: 39:39

Yeah, it's a crisis, and if people want to pretend that it's not a crisis, you're wrong. You can't have millions of people coming unvetted into the country and, through my national security lens, claim that that's not a concern. Sure, it's a concern. Now the concern has to be supported by facts. So, for example, when people claim that crime's out of control because of unlawful migration, I point out that there's actually no evidence to support that there's not. And so you know I'm going to push back with facts, but I'm not going to stand here and pretend that everything is wonderful at the border.

Speaker 2: 40:55

No it or Independent to the extent that you aren't afraid of looking for facts elsewhere, democrat or a stronger independent or a stronger Republican because of it, because you've indicated that you are not blocking out everything except what lines up with your thinking, and I think for either side. When we do that, we get into dangerous territory and I believe we become much more vulnerable to cult-like existence, because that's by its very nature. That's one of the tenets of a cult is you, don't listen to anything else but this.

Speaker 3: 41:53

Well, you know it's funny both both sides tend to call each other sheep. That you know. We're blindly following some leader or some facts, we're not checking them out, but god, we've got to stop doing that. Um, uh, you know. So some recent examples. Trump is, of course, claiming that the judge said he can't attend his son Barron's high school graduation. He didn't say that at all, but people are accepting that. You know, what the transcript reflects is that he said we'll see when we get there. We'll see how many delays we have. He didn't say you can't go to your kid's graduation.

Speaker 3: 42:35

By the way there's evidence to support that. The graduations probably at night or on a weekend, and it's not going to matter one hill of beans what's happening in the trial, and there's some question about whether he ever went to his kids other kids' graduation.

Speaker 3: 42:49

Anyway, get the facts, get the facts. You know Jesse Waters on Fox said something that caused all kinds of issues with jury security. You know he said something like oh, they've caught jurors, they've caught activist jurors lying to sneak themselves onto the jury. Absolutely zero evidence of that, evidence of that. But you talk to somebody who gets their news from Jesse Waters and they'll tell you it's absolutely true.

Speaker 3: 43:27

I've taken to a practice on social media. Now, when I see somebody declaring something emphatically on a post and I know this is shaky, for you know this is probably not true I will, I will ask for a citation. I'll just say citation please, citation please. I try not to post things without a citation. Nbc News doesn't let me do that. You know I write a regular column. In fact, I took a break from drafting my next column so that we could have our discussion. And let me assure you, everything I put in a column has to have a citation and it is. It is checked over by editors and lawyers. So that's, that's my, that's where my world is. So if you're throwing something up on a Twitter post, I'm going to ask you for your citation.

Speaker 2: 44:09

Yes, and I think of that often, even with my own posting, because, for example, when I was working on my graduate degree, you don't write a paper without citations. When you do, it's going to be kicked back. You don't inject opinion at large. Social media is a freer type of communication and that, to some extent, that's what most people are doing is expressing opinion. But I absolutely agree with you that when it comes to sensitive matters, especially those that could result in violence, that if you're going to say it, there should be some factual support behind it, and I think that's the magic, if you will, to make it as far as he has. He does the opposite. He says things that have no factual basis, no citations. He couldn't provide citations and I think one of the reasons that he does that is because he understands that presents extra cognitive work for his, his followers, and that people have a tendency to take the path of least resistance.

Speaker 3: 45:46

So he feeds them the most easily digestible form of lies and that's why they gobble it up, because they don't have to work through that You've hit something right on the head here about Trump and his success, which is that the world is becoming an increasingly complicated, high technology place to live, with many things that we struggle to explain, and it's human nature to seek out the simplest explanation, the simplest explanation, and when someone offers you that simple explanation, you tend not to explore it for veracity and truth, but you tend to embrace it because, thank God, someone's explained this to me and you know. I remember while Trump was president, there were a series of plane crashes, if you remember and you know, the reality is that flying planes has really become extremely complicated, and Trump made a statement that said well, maybe flying has just become too hard. And people went yeah, that's it, that's it, that's why planes are crashing. It's too hard, I shouldn't get on a plane anymore. And you know it's the same thing with COVID It'll go away in two weeks. Two weeks, it'll be gone.

Speaker 2: 47:11

You, they just took his word because they were scared, they were overwhelmed, they didn't know what the future was going to hold, whether they were going to die from COVID. And then here's somebody nonchalantly says in a couple of weeks it'll be gone, just vanish. That's comforting if you're overwhelmed, and so they gobbled it up.

Speaker 3: 47:44

Well, similarly with the outcome of the election, you know your guy didn't win and you're flabbergasted. He got his butt kicked by 8 million votes. How could that possibly have happened? Here's the easy explanation it was rigged. So yeah, it can't be that I chose a loser. It sounds much better to say it was rigged.

Speaker 2: 48:10

That's it. He relieves them of personal responsibility.

Speaker 3: 48:16

Yes, and doing their own work. And of course, he can't explain how other Republicans won their election.

Speaker 2: 48:26

But his part of the ballot was rigged. Given what we watched with the January 6th insurrection, given what we know went into it and what may have been missed leading up to that, and also knowing the real threat of an even larger or multi-pronged insurrection taking place in the future, what are your feelings on how much more surveillance has been being conducted by the FBI and our intelligence agencies to try and stay on top of this, or has that maybe not been happening as vigorously as it should be? Wow?

Speaker 3: 49:08

So, yeah, that's a multi-pronged response I need to come up with, because here's the problem. You know, I'm the first one to say that January 6th was not an intelligence failure, but rather a failure to act on available intelligence, because the intel was there. The intel was there, and I do not buy some of the FBI officials who've been saying no we didn't really see enough evidence of potential violence.

Speaker 3: 49:42

See enough evidence of potential violence. That's horse manure, and so it was there. Now the answer is okay. So are people? Is the FBI lying to you on this? No, what people need to understand is what the Bureau can do legally in this democracy that we live in, with freedom of speech and freedom of association. What it's like inside an FBI field office or an FBI headquarters each of which, by the way, every field office has at least one dedicated counsel attorney who reviews every kind of particularly domestic operation to make sure that every rule is followed and the Constitution is not violated.

Speaker 3: 50:25

So if an agent comes into the counsel's office and says, hey, listen, I want to put an undercover agent in this militia group, why? Well, you know they're buying some guns, okay, so what? Have they violated a law? Are they talking about violence? No, not yet, but they're going to get there. No, so when people think the FBI is actually listening to all of us, you know we use the term in law enforcement that you want to intervene left of boom, right Before the bomb goes off, right, not after the bomb goes off. So that's tricky, because you can't get in there with a source or an undercover agent in that chat room or in that militia group until you've got the proper predication for that. And so and we, by the way, we don't want to live in a world where the FBI's in your backyard barbecue listening. We don't want that, and so you know I don't want that. We've got to figure it out.

Speaker 3: 51:38

January 6th was a wake-up call to pay more attention to available intelligence. To answer your question, is there more surveillance occurring? Absolutely, but it's done lawfully, with permission. There's less of a timidity. Oh my God, we're going to get slapped if we. You know this will look bad.

Speaker 3: 52:00

I think they're doing what they can lawfully and doing everything they can lawfully, but I will tell you this they're covering like a blanket the known domestic terror groups and people, because that's easy to do lawfully. You've got your predication. But what they cannot cover, they're not clairvoyant. They cannot cover that lone actor, that two or three person group that tries to act out in some county or state. So you know, do I feel more assured that we'll have a, not have another iconic attack like on the US Capitol? Yes, can I tell you that we're safe from smaller groups acting out at softer targets? Yeah, I don't think we are.

Speaker 3: 52:52

And you know, it'll remain to be seen what the effects of criminal trials and charges have on Trump's followers. But the diehard ones, if he loses this election, they will not accept the results. They'll be led by his lead on what the position he takes, on what to do. You know, during this trial in New York he's already said hey, there should be more protests, the cops won't let anybody here. And of course that's not true. There's just nobody showing up. So you know that's not true. There's just nobody showing up.

Speaker 3: 53:23

So you know, maybe we're getting better here, but it's a tough nut to crack and I remind people I'm going to get in my soapbox for a second we still don't have a domestic terrorism law. We don't have a federal law against domestic terrorism. People are shocked to hear that, but we don't. So when you see people that breached security at the Capitol being charged with trespassing, interfering with Congress, theft of property, voud Boys, oath Keepers, three Percenters domestic terrorism groups right? Well, yeah, I think so, but just so you know, we don't have a mechanism to do that. We do it for international terrorism. We can designate international terror groups and we do have a law against committing international terrorism, against committing international terrorism. And, god forbid, you bump into an al Qaeda or Hamas or Hezbollah member because he delivered your pizza to your door.

Speaker 1: 54:33

We're going to be all over the FBI is going to be all over that right.

Speaker 3: 54:37

Why did that guy come to Jack's door with a pizza? Was there really a pizza in that box? We don't do that on the domestic side and that's the nature of our society and we're going to have to figure out how Can you speak to why there's a reluctance or hesitancy to move in that direction?

Speaker 3: 54:56

Sure sure, it's the. You know, every almost every year in the House or Senate, one of the members proposes domestic terror legislation. Amy Klobuchar, for example, has done it, but many others have. Every year it fails, and the failure is primarily due to the concerns around civil liberties. Now you might say, if you're a cynic, you might say, oh no, frank, the concern is that Republicans think you're going to be investigating them and so they don't want a domestic terror law. But I'll take. I'll take a more legal, broad approach which is valid, which is we don't want the FBI spying on Americans without due cause, right? And the concern is this would get really broad and abused really quickly if we're not careful. So when people say, oh, we should designate domestic terror groups, I throw back a question at them what?

Speaker 3: 55:58

if we had a president maybe his initials were DJT who decided to declare the Democratic Party a domestic terror organization? Or decided to declare MSNBC a domestic terror organization? Or, as he did in a tweet famously one time, I hereby declare Antifa a domestic terror organization.

Speaker 3: 56:26

As if they have like a headquarters in Peoria, illinois or something. You know we don't have a. You know he had to be told sir he likes to be called sir. Sir, we don't have a mechanism to designate any domestic group a terror organization. But if we did Jack, on that very day he would have made a pronouncement via Twitter and here would come the FBI opening cases on whoever pissed him off that day.

Speaker 2: 56:51

It's very much fits one of those. Be careful what you wish for situation. Yes, it will be abused Because I think of that. I'll watch one of the reports on one of his latest antics. Well, I'll be torqued, I'll be pissed after I have watched that or read it, whatever the case may be. And in your mind they need to do this. I wish they'd do this. But a few minutes later, when I kind of backed off of that pissed off mode and are thinking clearly, I'm like you know what, but I don't want that available for me you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: 57:35

The problem and you're thinking correctly I often get asked.

Speaker 3: 57:40

I often get asked why don't why doesn't the FBI do a background check on candidates for president or Congress? You know how do these people get their clearances with no background check? Well, as you just said, be careful what you or not. And what if the FBI has been taken over by a corrupt administration and they're saying this guy didn't pass his background, he can't get a clearance, he can't be president or congressman, or dog catcher? Do you really want that being told to the American people? You can't vote for who you want to vote for Now. I am for interim measures like financial transparency. If Trump had truly been required to turn over not just his taxes but, moreover, all his foreign entanglements and his family's foreign business, we would have been much more informed voters.

Speaker 2: 58:57

I'm for that. I'm for on things myself. I realized that so often the things like that doing a background check, an extensive background check on all candidates that ultimately the way things normally play out or have throughout history is while we think about that as something that would benefit us, the people, but that's not how government works, because ultimately it will be wrestled away to be used on or against the people. So I very often catch myself stopping and saying so. I very often catch myself stopping and saying I know that sounds good, but could it be true that the way things are right now really aren't that bad in the grand scheme of things? That yes, I may not like how it played out on this particular situation or with this candidate, but overall, looking at the alternative and how it could backfire, maybe it's not that bad.

Speaker 3: 1:00:08

Yeah, I'm with you on being really cautious about implementing things that could blow back on us with the wrong administration. And we've, you know, we've gone through most of our history assuming that our most senior leaders will play by the rules and therefore, if we instituted something like a background check for candidates, that people won't abuse it. And we can't do that anymore. We've been playing checkers and we have to play chess. Now we have to think strategically four or five moves ahead. How could this get abused by the wrong folks? And I can tell you I mean, if indeed Trump wins and again not a political statement, but just what he said and what the plans are right now the head of the FBI, the head of DOJ, the head of CIA, the DNI, the head of CIA, the DNI will be people that I would be seriously concerned about having the kind of power that would be easily abused and that's deeply troubling.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

I know you are on a tight schedule today and need to go, so this will be the last question, and it's a quick one. In the event that Trump would be elected, and for the reasons that you just stated, what's your gut on? How many people within the FBI DOJ would quickly resign?

Speaker 3: 1:01:35

yeah, there would. There would be an exodus. People I will tell you this easily people who are eligible for retirement, I mean many, many people stay in the Bureau beyond retirement eligibility. So a special agent can retire at any age with 25 years of service, or at age 50 if they have 20 years of service, but many, many, thank goodness, stay on until they're mandatory to retire, which is 57. The folks who are eligible but not mandatory, they will likely leave. Some will hang on and wait and see. But the first time that they see who's been named fbi director you know, uh, we don't need a rudy giuliani or a cash patel as fbi director they'll wait and see and then they'll go. Or the first time they see an order coming from the white house to meddle with an FBI investigation, then they'll go. So it will be an exodus. And then the real question, jack, is who replaces them? Who comes into the organization that has to pass a Trump loyalty test? And now they're on the street doing his bidding, not the nation's bidding.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

Very, very good point. Frank, I can't thank you enough for being with me today. One more time. You want to let everybody know about your book and when it comes out.

Speaker 3: 1:03:12

Yeah, thanks, Long Haul Hunting the Highway Serial Killers can be pre-ordered now. It comes out officially on May 28th. But if you want to be sure to get it on May 28th, go ahead and pre-order now on Amazon or anywhere else. You can also check out my website and subscribe for free to my website. Get all my TV clips, all my columns, all my appearances, FrankFigluzzicom.

Speaker 2: 1:03:36

Fantastic and I will be pre-ordering my copy today, frank, I hope maybe I can have you back on in the future and maybe we can talk about your book.

Speaker 3: 1:03:48

I'd love that. I enjoyed the discussion.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

I'll talk to you soon, frank. Thank you again. I think you will agree with me that Frank is a really fascinating guy. He's been there, done that, he's seen a lot, he knows a lot and he has this very specialized area of expertise that is so applicable to what's happening in the United States and around the world right now. He's an incredibly valuable resource to this country. Don't forget, go to Amazon right now and pre-order this book, and it is May 28th, which is not far away. On May 28th, those shipments start going out. May 28th, those shipments start going out and this fascinating book on a very intriguing subject will come right to you.

Speaker 2: 1:04:50

Long Haul Hunting, the Highway, serial Killers. If that doesn't pique your curiosity, I don't know what will. Also, be sure to check out my newsletter at jackhopkinsnowcom. That's where I talk all things psychological, emotional and peak performance for developing the kind of resilience, tenacity and confidence that you need really any time in life, but especially during this election season and the upcoming months, as we go into what we know will be, and already has been, most tumultuous and crazy election season for what is going to be the most important election in United States history. It's jackhopkinsnowcom. Give it a look. I'd like to thank you for having tuned into this episode with Frank Figliuzzi of the Jack Hopkins Show podcast, and I will see you next time.