TALK IT OUT
Welcome to Talk It Out, the thought-provoking podcast that brings engaging discussions, insightful interviews, and interactive segments right to your screen. Our dynamic hosts dive deep into a wide range of topics, exploring the complexities of life, relationships, current events, and much more. With expert guests, lively debates, and a belief in creating an inclusive space, Talk It Out challenges conventional wisdom, encourages critical thinking, and fosters understanding and empathy. Through interactive segments and viewer participation, we ensure that your voice is heard and valued. Join us on this exhilarating journey of discovery, where every episode is a gateway to enlightenment and connection.
TALK IT OUT
S1 E9 - Respectful Dialogues on Faith and Personal Beliefs
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This episode uncovers the complexities of balancing personal beliefs with familial duties, especially when the weight of historical significance and cultural norms bear heavily on one's decisions. We also examine the emotional toll of striving to meet the aspirations set by loved ones while navigating our own spiritual journeys.
Imagine re-entering civilian life after a highly controlled environment like military deployment or a religious mission. This episode sheds light on the psychological impacts of such transitions, drawing parallels between these experiences and the reintegration process. We share personal anecdotes from military and missionary perspectives, highlighting the intensity of these experiences and their long-lasting effects. The conversation reveals how childhood traumas and early development shape adult behaviors and coping mechanisms, underscoring the importance of self-awareness, personal growth, and the journey of healing.
How do you navigate relationships and personal beliefs within a strict religious context? We explore this question by discussing the challenges of living as a Mormon, from dealing with perceived hypocrisy to handling guilt and shame. Comparing this with other religious experiences, we suggest that less invasive practices might lead to a more balanced life. This episode also delves into the nature of faith and prayer, questioning whether feelings alone can be considered divine answers. We wrap up by advocating for respectful dialogues about diverse beliefs, encouraging listeners to share their stories and engage in meaningful conversations.
Welcome to Talk it Out. We're your hosts. I'm Jason.
Speaker 2:And I'm Aaliyah. Let's get into it. Hey y'all, welcome back to the podcast. We have been on a break for a couple months now and Majority of the summer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're getting back into it and we wanted to start off with a new series, I guess new topic of discussion, and this is going to be a very like we need you guys to be involved type series. It's going to be a belief and beliefs in religion series where we just talk about religion and how it's impacted us and you guys and kind of just break it down, I guess. Yeah, um, we definitely wanted we know that things like this have been done before, so we kind of wanted to bring like a different spin on it, where it's a little bit deeper, which is kind of the point of our podcast is to get a little bit deeper into things and view things in more, like of a philosophical type way where, like you, are the questions that we ask and the things that we talk about when it comes to these things. We want it to kind of dive deeper into like you can really evaluate the things that you do believe in and why you believe in those things and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Because I think it's really important when you have beliefs, especially spiritual beliefs, religious beliefs to like look at those beliefs and know why you have them yeah and like it just goes to talk about, like goes in with the other things we talked about about mental health, and also like our behaviors and our triggers and stuff like that, like why we act the way that we act. It kind of goes into that as well as like why do we believe the things that we believe in? And it's important to be able to take that like third person perspective of yourself to be able to evaluate why you do the things you do and why you believe the things you believe yeah, well, I think it's just an interesting topic of conversation, because it's one of the think it's just an interesting topic of conversation because, it's one of the.
Speaker 1:It's one of those things that's just so polarizing, yeah, like whether you do believe in, you know, religion, spirituality, or you're just completely disconnected from all of it, like I feel like most people are pretty like polarizing with it. Yeah. You're either like this is a really big part of my life, I love it, or you're of the mindset of like I don't need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. I feel like there is more. It's just I feel like you see it that way because it's like you always hear the loudest people, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think that there is a lot more people kind of in that gray area that are either trying to figure things out, what they believe in, or they just kind of have this like it's not really like the highest priority in my life, but I do think about it. It's not like I don't need it, like I do think that there is a lot of like.
Speaker 1:different types of People are in different places.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I get that. I mean, I felt that way when I was part of a religion. Part of a religion, but also, like, what makes it confusing is that for myself and, I know, for many other friends and acquaintances that I've had throughout my life, specifically with the Mormon church you kind of and it's hard because when you're an adult it's a completely different ball game, because then you're thinking for yourself, you're making your own decisions, you're talking to people who think differently than you. When you're growing up, you're kind of like in a bubble, and when I was in that bubble and're kind of like in a bubble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I was in that bubble and I've had friends in that bubble, even if you're questioning it oftentimes that's not the appearance or the facade that you put off to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:Like you could be questioning it, you could be wondering if it's for you, but then also telling people that it's for you, but then also telling people that it's what you believe in yeah and that's where I where I feel like it seems polarizing to me, because then, like it is like the loudest voices of right, one extreme to the next yeah, well, and like you just made me think about too, like um, like hello, my brain just stopped working. I don't know where you're going with that.
Speaker 2:What was I thinking? Oh, that's so annoying. Oh, this is what I was thinking Is people that are a part of religions and like practicing in those religions. Obviously those religions are not going to tell people like, oh, just kind of like, go live half-heartedly, these things like if you're part of a real religion, it's usually like expected that you are following the things that they say, dependent on the religion, that's going to change and like the severity is going to be different and all that kind of stuff, but like because it is pretty different from like ali and I.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we live in utah. We're surrounded by the mormon church. Yeah, we both, alia, grew up in the mormon church. I was converted into the mormon church when I was 12.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we'll talk about that a little bit later on but, it's very different, because there are religions that want you to adhere to like a very strict set of rules and guidelines. And then there's, like the baptist church from living in the south where, like their whole I don't want to say this is like what it is, because I don't know enough about that religion specifically to really say, but my experience with it is that they base it a lot, a lot off of grace and it's like, yeah, you might go out and I don't know. It's just so weird because, like it's hard with the Mormon church because you cannot drink alcohol, like you're not supposed to touch it. But all my Baptist friends, it's like no big deal, like they'll go to church every single week and still get plastered on a Friday night, yeah, and still get plastered on a Friday night, yeah, and it's like, as long as you're kind of just living life in a way that's good, then you aren't really like expected to adhere to such strict guidelines.
Speaker 2:Right. Does that church? Do you know if they teach like not to drink, or is it just like excessive? I have no clue.
Speaker 1:As far as I know, it's not even like a, not talked about it's not like a big topic of conversation yeah, which is so interesting because, coming from the mormon church, it really is just like you are given grace by god and like you can screw up, you can make bad decisions and the grace of god will save you from those things. Yeah, to an extent you know like you can't go out and murder people and expect god to be like cool, yeah, but like there's just so much more leeway with what's going on yeah, well, and that is kind of a good segue into how we grew up and what religions we've experienced and beliefs that we've gone through.
Speaker 2:Um, I'll start. I was born and raised Mormon, um, my mom's side of the family. Well, um, I don't know if you guys remember, in like the first episode, I talked about how my mom and dad got divorced when I was really young. I was like four years old, um, and I was my mom. I had my mom had full custody of me, and then I would go on visits with my dad, and so most of the time I was at my mom's house and so I was a lot more involved with, like, my mom's side of the family, those cousins, aunts, uncles growing up. We were like very close. I was always up at their house, um, a few of my aunts and uncles would babysit me when, like, I'd spend time at their houses when my mom had to go to girls camp, which is a, um, a church thing that they do in the Mormon church, and you getting emotional about it.
Speaker 2:A little bit and I don't want you to talk about it, because then I'm going to start crying.
Speaker 1:I just don't know why you're getting emotional about it.
Speaker 2:I just feel like like talking about when you were a kid is like, at least for like where I'm at in life right now. Like it's emotional, why? Like it's nostalgic. Like it's also like look back on the times you don't realize we're like good times, you know it's just like yeah, it's just emotional.
Speaker 2:It's not necessarily like sad, it's just emotional yeah I swear, will there ever be a time on this podcast that I like don't cry? If you wouldn't have mentioned that, I would have been able to keep it together I just wanted to know what was making you emotional about it yeah, anyways, also like it's annoying because I have to do my makeup for the podcast, because the lights make me look like a freaking, lifeless alien creature and so I have to wear makeup. Actually, I don't know. I've gone pretty tan over the summer. Maybe I'll be fine now yeah anyways.
Speaker 2:So that's my mom's side of the family. Very devout members, um, I would say that there's definitely more extreme devout than my family, but they're like, my family is also pretty devout, yeah, um. And then in the specific family, my mom is probably like the least about out of most of her siblings and even then she's pretty devout. So, um, like she always jokes that you know, know, she's the black sheep of the family and um, stuff like that. But, needless to say, very devout family we have like ancestors dating back to like joseph smith's family, like they were friends with them. It's pretty crazy actually.
Speaker 1:Joseph Smith, as in the person who founded the Mormon Church. Yeah of the.
Speaker 2:Mormon Church. I'm just assuming that a lot of people who are like watching this because they're close to us, like understand.
Speaker 1:You have to talk about it like nobody knows.
Speaker 2:I know so. Joseph Smith was the founder of the Mormon Church and I have ancestors that were friends with him and his family, and so my family has been a part of the church since it started. Um, generationally speaking, that is pretty crazy to think about. That is a lot of people, a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Not to mention that, like we did have polygamists in our family, so like even more people and I don't know how it's really affected you having that information, but for me, like just thinking about like, oh, if I had family that was like dated that far back generation, generationally, like that's a lot of pressure too, because there I feel like there would just be this sense of like expectation to continue being involved with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's definitely like a. There is a level of pressure, but I don't know I need to like look into this with my like birth chart or something. I swear because like there is something to me that like pressure like that like doesn't get to me specifically like religious pressure.
Speaker 1:It's so weird but I don't even see it as religious pressure. It would be more of like a family lineage pressure not to let them down in a sense, yeah, no, no, like it.
Speaker 2:Like when I was like leaving, it was more of like a like this is just what I've known my whole life.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like a I'm letting my family down, and I'm really glad that I never had that, because I know a lot of people who do leave the mormon church go through that feeling yeah and it's got to be horrible, absolutely horrible, and like devastating, but I just never like, I never put that on myself and like from a young age it even started like my family but oftentimes it's your own family members or people who are also a part of your church that put that pressure on you. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yourself even will put that pressure Right.
Speaker 2:And I don't know. I feel like I've just kind of I've just I've just been that way. It's just how I am, is like I. I don't want to have like beliefs or I don't want to do things, especially when it comes to like going on a mission. From a young age I said I don't want to go on mission and I'm not going on one and like I know I'm a girl and that was like different, especially when we were growing up.
Speaker 1:And again, to like kind of just give some tidbits um, in the Mormon church, a mission is where you, long story short, you fill out a bunch of paperwork, this big, long packet, send it to salt lake city, to the church headquarters. Their leadership will look over things. And this is where it gets a little bit touchy, because I don't necessarily believe in the way that it all pans out.
Speaker 1:But they say that they pray about it. Talk to God for each individual person that sends these packets in, and then they'll send you another packet back to your home address in the mail. Yeah, and it will just say so. And so you are going to whatever place in the world.
Speaker 2:It can literally be anywhere in the world well, I'm sure there's some places that they're not allowed, but yeah, anywhere that accepts missionary work, yeah, um, and then you just go like there's no choice.
Speaker 1:You it's not, like there's a lot of other religions where their mission trips are like just a few months long and it's pretty much all geared around like helping the community humanitarian stuff and you can pick where you want to go to do that. But for this, like it's not humanitarian, Like that's a small part of it, but the main portion of it is like-.
Speaker 2:Teaching the gospel.
Speaker 1:Teaching and spreading to more parts of the world information about that church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where. And you also, like you, baptize on your mission, like you, like you baptize on your mission, like you basically like what's the word? Like proselyte, proselyte.
Speaker 1:Proselyte yeah, you teach people about whatever your church believes.
Speaker 2:You teach people about the church? Yeah Well, we're talking about the Mormon church, so we can talk about that.
Speaker 1:Right, but I'm not going to call it the church because I don't necessarily think it's the church. Well, yeah, I think it's a church. Yeah, no, and that's actually a crazy thing like culturally growing up in Utah. It's just the church, oh.
Speaker 2:I, yeah, even for me, like not growing up in Utah, I've had to make it very like you, consciously I've had to make.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to consciously tell myself, like don't say the church, yeah, because then it makes me feel like I'm still like part of it, or think that it's yeah, that makes sense, but, um, when I was young, even like I didn't, I didn't want to go on a mission, and the reason that I say like there were different pressures involved is because, especially when we were growing up in our parents generation, it was a very much like boys don't have a choice, you go on a two-year mission yeah when you turn, it used to be 19, now it's 18 yeah, there's a.
Speaker 1:There's a very high amount of pressure on young men.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when they turn 18 to go um, like kind of in our generation it's eased up quite a bit and like mental health is really taken into consideration and stuff like that, but it's still.
Speaker 2:There is definitely still a pressure, yeah, um and also like to do it, unless there are circumstances that prevent you from doing so yeah, well, and like we really couldn't say the last six years because we haven't gone to church, we don't know, maybe it has changed more, um, but for girls they used to only be able to go when they were 21. So a lot of them didn't go because they were probably married by then, or wanting to be married, or in the process of getting married and um well, and even even the Mormon church, kind of, at least, like you said, we haven't been in a while, but I was a part of it.
Speaker 1:It was it was pushed for females to like the number one priority was to get married and start a family. For a female, yeah, and for a male it was like you do your mission and then you come home for two years, and then you come home, get married and you immediately do those things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that definitely started to let up when we were younger Around the time I think it was when you went on your mission, or was it maybe earlier they changed the age for girls down to 19. No, that was way before your mission. What year was that?
Speaker 2:It wasn't way before, maybe a year or two really yeah, I think so, because then it used to be 19 that you went as a, as a boy, as a man yeah, and then they went to 18 for boys and 19 for girls and like, when that came out, that was a really, really big deal in the church. That was like a big like whoa policy change, like that was crazy. Um, and I think they did it like general conference, which is where they like speak to the members once a year like the big leadership twice a year twice a year.
Speaker 2:That's what I meant, um, and like that's where you hear god's revelations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I just kind of laughed because it's just funny to think about the things that like were just so normal to my day to day life that now I'm like that is not what I believe and that's fine, like it's. It's just like crazy. I'm not. I'm really not trying to like be disrespectful or anything. I hope that that is one thing out of this series that I really really hope to gain is that we can have respectful conversations about these things and understand that when people are talking whether it comes from the side of people being still in religions to the people that have left or whatever, like I want it to be a place where we can understand that, like we're coming and there's not ill intentions, it's not disrespectful yeah, and it's okay that there are feelings that are hurt, but just like understand the the intent behind the things that's being said right, yeah, and I'm not gonna try and you know rag on the Mormon church, but if you don't have thick skin, I'm going to offend you.
Speaker 1:It's going to happen because I'm going to speak my truth, according to how I view it. Yeah. And that's not always going to be something that remotely lines up with other people's beliefs.
Speaker 2:I'm just laughing now at like like just you and how you are, because that is just so much how you are and I. It's just funny to me because I'm very much of the like. I do not want to offend you. I will try to say, when it comes to like beliefs like this, like I do, definitely like I will try to say something a little bit more like oh yeah, I'm gonna bite my tongue, but there's certain things that I'm not gonna.
Speaker 1:There's not really a way for me to bite my tongue on it. Yeah, I know, I just love how straightforward you are um, but for me, like I, I didn't grow up in any religion whatsoever, like first nine years of my life. I mean I don't even know if, like, anybody spoke to me about like God or yeah, anything like that yeah, that's crazy, cuz.
Speaker 2:By nine years old I was baptized.
Speaker 1:I had like made promises with God, like by the time I was nine years old yeah, yeah, and for me, like I wasn't, I'd never even thought of like an afterlife or anything of that nature, yeah, um, no, and I had literally been like singing songs about it since I was like born yeah, but.
Speaker 1:I was like a baby growing up with the church growing up with my mom for the first nine years and that side of the family, a lot of them actually were at one point baptized into the Mormon church, but they didn't go anymore yeah and so I didn't know anything about it. And then, when I turned nine, my dad got custody of me. He was kind of up and down like he was in a stage where he wasn't really going to church, but it was still like a big part of his background yeah because my grandma on my dad's side is very like.
Speaker 1:She's like devout, devout, yeah, um, and she was the biggest motivating force in me getting baptized into the mormon church, because she literally invited the missionaries yeah to like come and teach me right.
Speaker 2:Well, and can I just say, like I just wanted to say about your grandma, is that, like she also was married to non-members yeah and two of her husbands have now passed. And like she is just like the sweetest saint of a woman, who's just like has her beliefs and she also like just loves everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like it's just it's yeah, you know, and her beliefs are are really important to her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, of course, when you have a set of beliefs that are that strong and you bring children or grandchildren into the situation, there's going to be a sense of like duty almost yeah to like share the same set of beliefs with them, right, um, and so that's what kind of happened with me but I do feel like it also is like I'm sure you kind of did see a different side, because there are some people who would some devout members who would not be married to non-members and be okay with that. Like it would be, it would be a division.
Speaker 1:So I can see why, like well, my grandpa like yeah my grandma's first husband was he did go to church yeah, did you go to.
Speaker 2:He was mormon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I didn't know that I don't, he might not have started out that way oh okay, okay, but that's how he ended. Yeah, and even my grandma, I think, was a convert. Okay. Because her mom died when she was really young. Uh-huh. And kind of led her to that. Uh-huh Okay.
Speaker 2:Interesting. So when your dad got custody of you, your grandma was a big part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so, like I went through the whole spiel with the missionaries, they taught me all the stuff about the church, the Mormon church, and I you know, of course I didn't think anything of it at the time. I think personally for me, 12 years old, I don't think 12 years old is old enough to be making a decision like that. Your brain's just not developed hardly at all, and that's just science.
Speaker 1:You know, you know well, and all you know is what your, your parents, have taught you right and you don't have any real specifically for me like growing up the first nine years of my life in a situation that was not good tons of bad things happening, lots of negative emotions involved. I do feel like at that stage I was in a very vulnerable position. Yeah, not just because I was a young kid who was having expectations of sorts placed upon me, but also of sorts placed upon me, but also I had been dealing with so many negative things that when I was approached with the positive thing like of course, that's something that in some sense completely sold on ever Like, I always questioned it. I always, when people weren't looking, looking, was not obeying the rules that they wanted me to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no um, I didn't have like actual, like faith in it right um, it was just more of understanding the expectations that my family was placing upon me, and I don't think that they necessarily were doing it out of like ill intent or to take away my choices. But again, it's just because that's what they believed in so heavily that they felt like I needed to believe in it too. Um, and even at 12, I understood that very well because I at that point had already had to grow up a lot. I wasn't really like, didn't have a normal childhood by any stretch of the imagination. I had already been thinking about adult or like problems adult. Yeah, you didn't have a healthy.
Speaker 2:You didn't have a healthy childhood yeah. I wouldn't say like I don't think anybody in our society right now has had a normal childhood.
Speaker 1:I just feel like I didn't have a childhood, like I didn't, I wasn't given the time to be a child.
Speaker 2:You immediately had to grow up.
Speaker 1:I had to like grow up fast. Yeah. And so, even at like 12 years old, I was already thinking about, like you know, how I need to please my family and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know how I need to please my family and stuff like that, yeah. And so those six years, 12 to 18 was pretty much just that Like fake it till you make it. You know, put on a smile around certain people, talk a certain way around certain people, then go hang out with the buddies and drop F bombs and steal from the store and you know whatever else Stupid and. And then when it, when I was graduating high school at 18 years old, obviously they had changed the rules in the mormon church where you can do your mission at 18. So it was kind of like okay, right after graduation, that's going to be the next step for me. Like, okay, right after graduation, that's going to be the next step for me. And there was a, there was a good amount of pressure just that had built up throughout those six years, but also because up until that point nobody in my family had ever gone on a mission, and it was like everything culminated at me. Yeah, it was like you are the one, you're the chosen one.
Speaker 2:Don't let us down.
Speaker 1:And so I was. It wasn't really ever. I didn't feel like it was a choice for me to not go.
Speaker 2:Because you wouldn't let your family down like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I felt like, no matter what I personally believed, I had to do it. Yeah. To make them happy, like I felt, like no matter what I personally believed, I had to do it, yeah, to make them happy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the difference between you and I. I think a big difference. Yeah, and even at the time, like I was, but I also like I do admire a certain aspect of that, but also like it is really unhealthy. Yeah, of course, Like it's not is really unhealthy, yeah, of course, like it's not, it's not good for me.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, you know you live life like that. You're going to be miserable at the expense of everybody else's happiness. Yeah, but I was also dating a girl at the time that it was time for me to go on my mission, time for me to go on my mission, and that was another pressure apart from my family, apart from everything that I just discussed because she also was a part of the Mormon church and very much wanted me to go, because, again, that's just kind of the expectation like girls grow up saying like I want to marry a return yeah, I want to marry a guy that's went on his mission no, like literally.
Speaker 2:I remember writing in like activity days, which is like when you're eight years old to 12 years old. I remember that we had to like write down what we wanted in our future husband and so many people always put return to missionary on theirs and, like from a young age, I never put return missionary on mine. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because that was something that I had decided was like I, yeah, because that was something that I had decided was like I'm not gonna put somebody's worth on that, which is like just crazy that subconsciously because I didn't think that as a kid that was definitely a subconscious thought but like I can see how I am at where I'm at today, like those are things back then being that young, being like I'm not subscribing to that one.
Speaker 1:Sorry, you know what I mean yeah, and I will say, like, even going on my mission, like I did the full two years and it's intense for those that don't know like it's two years of you don't do anything except teach people about the mormon church, yeah, you always have your name well and you literally have a name tag on at all times.
Speaker 2:It says like elder straw, yeah, you're in your church close six out of seven days of the week.
Speaker 1:They let you have monday.
Speaker 2:Well, they kind of let you have mondays off well that it depends, but it's not even a whole day. I don't think it's. I think that's like your mission picks a day, it's not always well, you get one day out of seven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's called like a, it's just basically.
Speaker 2:P-Day personal day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a P-Day personal day where you can just do your laundry, kind of unwind a little bit. But even then it's only a set amount of hours on that day and you still have to wake up and do your scripture study and all that. Well, and then once I think like somewhere around dinner time, once that hits, it's over. You go back to like normal. Yeah, the other six days of the week.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And it's no, you don't have your phone. It's no contact with the outside world. You can't talk to your family, you can't talk to friends.
Speaker 2:They've changed that, they've changed that a little bit. Same when I went though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I couldn't talk to my family, I couldn't talk to my friends.
Speaker 2:I got two calls a year, one on Christmas and one on Mother's Day, because who cares about fathers, right you?
Speaker 1:can't say that and you don't get to watch TV like you don't, don't do anything that, like quote-unquote, normal people do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and you can like. You can like, you can play like church ball and stuff, right?
Speaker 1:Only for, like your exercise time in the morning. You can't just like go do it for fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Even if you like went to the, if you were at the church building when they had like their like you can't.
Speaker 1:The only way you could pull that off is if you like brought somebody that you were teaching and like use that as like, oh, like, we're connecting with them, so like it's okay yeah, but also they do like they do set time aside for like um service and helping, helping the like people with things that they need help with and stuff like that yeah, and that's kind of up to you though, honestly yeah like when you're on your mission.
Speaker 2:That's kind of it's not really like you make your own schedule.
Speaker 1:To an extent, like there's a schedule of like this is what you're supposed to be doing during these times, but then, further and more intricately, as far as like we're gonna go teach so-and-so and we're gonna go to someone's house and help them do yard work yeah, like you have to set all that up on your own.
Speaker 2:Um, and there's services like a part of the mission, yeah, that they want you to do. And service is like going and helping people with yard work and like doing, like helping people with things.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm trying to say yeah, but the way that they spin it is kind of what bugs me, because it's more of like a do it to get close to them not do it, because it's the right thing to do see, but I also think that that's might be like specific missions, and I feel like that's something that probably has changed a little bit too, because I do know that there's like more service-only missions where they're not allowed to proselyte and stuff like that. Do I say that word right?
Speaker 1:Proselyte, yeah, proselyte, because not all countries allow you to proselyte.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like I think that there are, and I do think that there are certain like leaders and stuff that would think of it more of like a hey, like this is something good, you have the opportunity to go and like help the community and stuff like that, I just feel like it could be spun the way that you're spinning it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's why I do get rubbed the wrong way when, like, are people from around our neighborhood that like reach out to us about similar things, because I'm like do you really care about me, or is this all part of like a big plan to try and get me to come back to church?
Speaker 2:See, but that's the thing too, is I feel like it's OK to also just hold a boundary of like we're not going to come back to church, yeah, and like it's OK to say that to them too, yeah, come back to church, yeah. And like it's okay to say that to them too, yeah, like you don't have to like question their motives.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's probably why we haven't heard from them in a while, but because we told them that we wouldn't go back yeah, I literally removed my records yeah, but we're always nice to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they've come over and like asked about my mom before and stuff, and they're, they're kind, we're kind yeah because I always say we always have to be nice to the missionaries because you and I would have never met if you did not come on a mission yeah, well, and I don't regret it by any stretch of the imagination, like it was still, it was two years of doing something I didn't necessarily want to be doing, but also.
Speaker 1:It was like still two years of kind of just being forced to look outward Like that's. The one thing about it is that you are just so enveloped on helping everybody else that you almost don't even really have time to think about yourself yeah, so it was like a good, it was a good escape for you, yeah, yeah and it was.
Speaker 1:It was a nice escape from reality, really, because you're put in a massive bubble. Yeah, like, the bubble that you get put in is so extreme that when you finish your mission you have to like. Actually they put you through classes of like how to adapt back to the real world wild.
Speaker 1:I never knew that yeah wow and the only other place that I've had to do. That is when I went to afghanistan and we were coming back home oh and that was crazy. Yeah, those are the only two times in my life where I had to like sit down and go through classes of like how to integrate back into society. How to integrate?
Speaker 2:I've never had to do that ever in my life. I've never had that talk. I would just like to say I just want to point that out there like.
Speaker 1:This is how you be human again no, like that is giving me okay.
Speaker 2:You know, this is something with my existential, like OCD that I would think so much about that that it would send me into like a spiral of a disaster if I ever and there might be a day that I have to sit through one of those classes yeah and just know hope that I have enough therapy to get through that well, and it's not a shot at the army or a shot at the Mormon church, it's just purely from a standpoint of when I was deployed and when I was on my mission.
Speaker 1:You are only focused on certain things. There's a lot of life that you are not involved in whatsoever. Yeah, so you do have to integrate back into society, because you're now dealing with aspects of life that you haven't dealt with in a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I would hope that those things, those organizations that are like doing that to people, I hope that they would give some sort of class like that. Yeah, like I think if it's there, it's probably needed, oh yeah, and, like you know, they've had issues, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like that's important to remember, like the psychology behind the things that we're involved in, and like it's okay to be aware of the like scientific yeah, but that explanation that was almost like a perfect way of describing all the things that I was trying to say yeah it's like it just is very intense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very strict time period right and for two years to be that way, like that's a long time, two years yeah, especially when you're right at 18 like we're talking about almost a thousand days straight of living life of your first like year of adulthood.
Speaker 2:That's.
Speaker 1:That's like first two years what did I say?
Speaker 1:first year no, like that's, that's intense, that's intense, that's a lot yeah, but like I was saying it was, it was still a great experience. Obviously, ali and I met, which you know speaks for itself, but yeah, it was still a. It was still an enjoyable time for me for the most part. I think where a lot of my issues with my mission came up for me was actually after the fact, when I kind of was able to take a step back and really analyze and think about everything that went on while I was there. That's where you know, I start to have some issues with it, but being in the midst of it, like it was a good time.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and it was like Granted, I wasn't a missionary who followed all the rules, yeah, so that made it a little bit more manageable and fun for me, jeez.
Speaker 2:But like I don't know, just like it's crazy, like listening to your story, just kind of a lot of the like overall themes that I'm seeing I can see in my own childhood growing up, where I had these little, just like I don't know if the church is true for me, I don't know if it, I don't know if it can, is true for me.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it can be. You know, like I had a lot of moments like that from a young age, like I think as early as like excuse me, I just had like a weird hiccup my like youngest, like memories of the church. I remember having those thoughts, yeah, like memories of the church. I remember having those thoughts, yeah, and I don't know if it comes with the territory of like literally having like childhood trauma between both of us that we had to grow up at a young age it was both very young childhood trauma, which I think makes a difference developmentally definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean it gets your. I think it starts working parts of your brain that that a lot of the time don't really start churning until later ages for most people we're always looking into like the deeper.
Speaker 2:Because we've been doing it for so long. It's literally like habitual for us yeah and that's why, like we create and develop ocd yeah like it's just kind of crazy realizing like where, those, where, those behaviors that we have now stemming back all the way to like, oh, that's why I do that yeah and then it feels almost a little bit more like oh okay, if I know why, then I can start understanding like how I should make change that to benefit my life now.
Speaker 2:But if you don't know the why, then it's hard to get to that like yeah, reason. Anyways, I'm just realizing how like it makes sense that you and I would be compatible, like we both kind of just have that like those deeper moments like young that we can remember young and I don't remember like a lot of my childhood.
Speaker 2:That's definitely like one of my trauma responses was like I mean that in and of itself is trauma yeah it is I know that's crazy, huh yeah that's probably why, when, like, I do remember things in my childhood, it makes me get emotional because I don't remember a lot yeah so, like the things I remember stand out a lot.
Speaker 3:That's crazy yeah, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, that's crazy yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. Anyways, jason and I did start talking after his mission. I was definitely one of the like girls. I was still in my home ward. Like that was like, oh, like like girls. I was still in my home ward, like that was like, oh, like I like that guy because I could tell that you weren't really a rule follower and I liked that because that's like how I am as a person.
Speaker 1:I do like a rebel.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people did.
Speaker 1:I know, but also like that was easily like the most attention I've ever got from females. I know, the two years that I was on my mission. I'm sure a lot of people feel that way it was crazy that's funny, that's actually really funny um, which, by the way, like you can't go on dates or like talk to people in a romantic manner or anything when you're on a mission. So it's just kind of like dangling like the freaking meat in front of the dogs and they're just running on the treadmill that's so wild.
Speaker 1:They're literally just wanting everybody to like be prepared for like freaking no like mating it's crazy, though, like serving a mission in utah in the midst of like everybody here is like damn, they're already mormon uh-huh and then again with just like how people, just with everything, tend to be so polarizing, like of course there's a tons of people who are part of the church here, but then there's also the other side of people. We're like they hate it bad, like one time the you're always with somebody.
Speaker 1:You're never alone yeah, unless you're like naked in the shower or like pooping or something. Yeah, you are always like within eye and ear shot of the person called your companion.
Speaker 2:So you like always have like accountability.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You always have like somebody watching you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where was I going with that? What were we just talking about?
Speaker 2:The tension from girls. No.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was saying how polarizing people are. My one of my companions and I were just walking down the road one day and some guy driving down the road literally pulls off the side to the shoulder of the road where we're walking and like rolls down his window and just starts telling us like all this stuff about how, like, joseph smith was a horrible person and this and that, and it's like I understand if you believe that, but for me personally, even though I kind of am of of that mindset now, I don't think it's appropriate necessarily to like go out of your way and be like, hey, what you're doing is wrong yeah, especially to you.
Speaker 2:Also have to remember these are kids. Yeah, they're young kids they're, they're kids.
Speaker 1:They graduated from high school and, before doing anything in the adult world, yeah, went on their mission. Yeah, they don't know anything about the adult world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um like what a horrible, like first impression man yeah, but it's just like it's crazy, because there are people that are so polarizing like that that they can't even like the reason I'm saying that there are people so polarizing is because, um, here in utah county, where leah and I live now, like within 10 miles of where we're at right now, there's two universities Brigham Young University, which is like church school. Yeah, it's like endorsed by the Mormon church. Um majority of people that go to that school are Mormon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they also. It's like um, tithing is used to, used like fun.
Speaker 1:It's a cheaper school to go to yeah, um, and then there's utah valley university, which is like kind of seen as like the, the mormons that don't want to follow the rules go there or people who are not mormon at all, or like or yeah, people that aren't mormon don't want to have to, because byu is private honor role. They have an honor code or whatever yeah, it's a private school, so they can tell you like you're not allowed to have members of the opposite sex in your dorm room you're not allowed to have sex before marriage.
Speaker 1:You're not allowed to drink. You're not allowed to um freaking. Wear shorts like it's.
Speaker 2:It's weird I don't know if that shorts thing is still the same it used to be, yeah. But anyways. And then UVU is very much like they try to be like inclusive and like very yeah, it's like very opposite.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I was on my mission there was literally an entire sorority of women at Utah Valley University. Again, not allowed to go on dates on your mission. Not allowed to like hold hands. Kissing someone will most likely get you kicked off your mission, like you'll be sent back home yeah.
Speaker 1:I got caught kissing someone on my mission and like it was a miracle that I didn't get sent back home. Yeah, that's crazy. But there was this sorority at UVU of girls that their whole like how you got inducted into the sorority they're like trial or whatever for the people that wanted to get in was to have sex with a mormon missionary and get them sent back home that's wild yeah, like this was a bonkers place to be serving a mission okay, this was a bonkers place to grow up in yeah the culture is like.
Speaker 2:That's why, when you're like talking about how like that show that just came out on hulu, you're like that's not really. That's why when you're like talking about how like that show that just came, out on hulu, you're like that's not really, that's not mormons I'm like which one? The one that my mom was watching the secret lives of oh, yeah, yeah or whatever, um, and I was like no, you don't understand. Like, from a cultural standpoint, I don't see how this is far off. There's a very like polarizing, like or not polarizing.
Speaker 1:A very fluid like different types of members in the mormon church that you just like I get that, I understand that, like there's people who go to church every single sunday and still drop f-bombs and you know, talk nasty or whatever, still drink. But to me it doesn't make sense because that's not what the mormon church says to do yeah.
Speaker 2:So like why are you? Why yeah?
Speaker 1:why? Why are you a part of it? If you want to cuss and you want to drink and you want to do this like don't put on a face?
Speaker 2:monday through saturday yeah or act one way monday through saturday and then put on a face in your church clothes on sunday and like act like everything is okay, because even the, even the mormon church, will tell you like if you were doing that, you are damning yourself yeah, well, and like it's not okay if you go, take the sacrament, which is like the pieces of bread and the water cups, after knowing that you are not like doing the things that you should be to partake in that, it literally says in their scriptures you are damning your soul yeah, well, and also like not only that, but you've also like the majority of people there, if you are like a member baptized in, you've literally made covenants with god, like speaking on what their doctrine believes right, like you made covenants with god to do these things, and then you're like you're lying about it and like not being true to who you are and not being authentic and like there's a level of shame and a level of guilt that's very heavy in that and that shows itself in many different ways across, like ex-mormon community and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Like it shows up in different ways and I think that's where a lot of maybe yours as well, but at least for me, that's where a lot of vast majority of my negative emotions toward the Mormon church come from is the fact that I just felt guilty. I just felt guilty like all the time we're like, basically just like who I was as a person, because it just didn't ring true to me. What they wanted, what they were expecting of me, wasn't something that felt right, and so when I inevitably fell short of those expectations, I just constantly found myself feeling like crap, yeah, and no, that for me, it's like the expectations that you're giving me are almost impossible to reach.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like I felt like they were setting me up for failure. Yeah. Because, like you can't say like, hey, go be perfect, I mean that's not what they say, right. Because, like you can't say like, hey, go be perfect, I mean that's not what they say, right, they do want to give you grace, but like, that's how it feels with just how many rules and restrictions there are. Is that you're expected to be like damn near a perfect human being?
Speaker 2:Well, and if you're not, like Honestly, some of their expectations aren't even like to be Okay. So they believe that like Jesus is like God's status right and they tell you that like you have to live like Jesus, you have to be like Jesus. So they're expecting you to literally like not even you cannot give in to like any of your human urges.
Speaker 1:Natural desires. Yeah, no-transcript like you know, there are.
Speaker 2:That's a parent's job to do to a kid is like to make sure that they understand, like, what's healthy and what's not healthy, what's okay and what's not healthy what's okay and what's not okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:But no, I was going to say for me, like those pressures and stuff, like that, I'm telling you, it's just kind of like who I am as a person. I think where, like that, the guilt, you're going to have to do better than that. Yeah, you're gonna have to do better than that. Yeah, like seriously, because like I would do not okay things and go to freaking young women's, go to my weekly activities but you would never feel like about it? No, and I wouldn't feel bad about it.
Speaker 1:When you were no, yeah, see, that's not how it was for me. It was like when it came time for me to do, to be involved in a task that, technically, I shouldn't be involved in because of the way that I'm living my life. It was like oh man, Like oh yeah, I'm going to go to hell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I don't know if I have like I'm telling you, I think, but that's like sorry to cut you off, but that's like I am. I have nothing against religion yeah, I don't. But I do get a little bit more testy when it comes to the mormon church because it just again, it's just, it feels so extreme, it feels so intense to me. Yeah, like if I grew up baptist, I could have been doing all the things that the mormon church was making me feel super guilty for, and probably I wouldn't have felt guilt about it at all, I wouldn't even had a second thought about it if I was like coming up as a Baptist or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like so I feel like, personally, I'm more okay with religion that isn't so involved in your personal life.
Speaker 2:That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I would say that's a fair assessment of like your belief.
Speaker 1:Just give me the information and let me do with it what I will.
Speaker 2:I don't need all this like ticky tacky yeah feeling like I'm being micromanaged type thing yeah, I feel like that's definitely a fair assessment of your beliefs, like understanding how you see certain things and stuff like that yeah like that totally makes sense.
Speaker 2:I like that point of view. That definitely. That definitely makes me see it. And from a different point of view as well, because, like for me, I understood that it was like a high demand religion. But then I was also like but I'm just like, I'm still gonna do what feels right to me and I'm not gonna feel bad about it, like which is good.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's nasty for you but that's where I think, like for some people, like for some people, those beliefs might not seem so crazy. Like to you, it seems crazy, yeah Right.
Speaker 1:Of course, because I just can't wrap my mind around that way of thinking of being like. Your brain just isn't wired that way.
Speaker 2:No like, if you give me the rule book like I, I'm gonna follow the rule book well and like if the rule book says that you should feel guilty well, and if the rule book says that you should feel guilty for doing something, then you're gonna feel guilty for doing it. To me, I'm like the book could tell me to feel guilty, and I'm like I know my feelings well enough that I don't feel guilty.
Speaker 1:So I'm good yeah yeah, and I think the the other thing for me that was just a huge stumbling block I mean massive stumbling block with religion in general is that there was.
Speaker 2:So I said a lot of prayers in my time as being religious and going on a mission that's very heavy. You're praying all the time yeah, people are asking you to pray all the time.
Speaker 1:All day long. Yeah, probably like 20 at least a day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like out loud with people around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's wild and I don't ever feel like I ever had a prayer answered in any way, shape or form. Um, I think when I was on my mission specifically, there were maybe maybe two or three times where I prayed for somebody else, thousand percent. I've never said a personal prayer and felt like it was answered. There was two or three times where maybe I could be convinced that a prayer was answered. But also, looking at it objectively, it very much could have been coincidental as well.
Speaker 1:Especially because being in that environment so heavy you are naturally going to look for things in a certain light and almost like force answers to be there when maybe they're really not. It's just like something so minute and you hold on to it and you're like that's the thing. That's why that happened. Yeah, yeah, but that's just a.
Speaker 1:That was one of the biggest things with me not wanting to be involved with religion in general yeah not just the mormon church but religion in general, is that I feel like I've reached out to God so many times and like never have. I felt like I got a prayer answered and for me personally, like the whole pray about it and if you feel warm and fuzzy like that, yeah, that's your answer yeah, like give me the decency of giving me a real, obvious answer.
Speaker 1:Don't give me some warm and fuzzy feeling that I could have like concocted inside my own head and made myself feel that way. Yeah, because I want it to feel that way. Yeah. No like. Yeah. Reach down and slap me in the face and just be like. This is your answer. Okay, but I have a couple points to make. Or I mean, and sorry, but if that doesn't happen, then, plain and simple, I'm not going to believe in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you like proof.
Speaker 2:I will not believe without proof well, and here's the thing too, is that like in your brain I think that's how you might be like coming to this conclusion, right is like oh, never mind, that thought is gone. See, you took, you took too long. I'm losing my thoughts. I'm losing my thoughts. Oh, let's just get to, let's just get to it. So, very first thing I was going to say is like hearing you told me that just on, there was a moment when you and I were living together, with before we were married, we were just dating, which is a no-no in the Mormon church. You don't do that. And I like actually didn't tell my mom that we were like living together and you didn't know that. I didn't tell her until we were literally driving to North Carolina, because I knew that it would just be a blow up and so I just like avoided it. It was bad. It was bad. But I also just like I didn't, I didn't trust. I knew what my mom was going to say, so I just like didn't tell her. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But like I shut up, but also like that's something yeah because then it makes me. It made me feel like oh, now your mom's going to think that I'm in on this like not telling her about a thing too. Yeah, and you weren't okay with it. You were so mad that I did that because I just didn't.
Speaker 1:It was the very start of our relationship really like, and you had already been on a little bit well and you were already rock.
Speaker 2:You were already rocky within, like my. Like with my family yeah, well, with my mom yeah yeah, so like that was horrible that I did that.
Speaker 2:That was horrible, I shouldn't have done that oh I know, but it was a no-no and um, we were having just a conversation because the church changed a policy that when the policy was put into place, I had a problem with it. It was something that kind of like really started to the like. People in the church, when they leave the church, start saying like that it broke their shelf there's.
Speaker 1:It's just like big moments that, like your whole, like belief started to explode yeah and, like I said, like I've been having those moments as a very young child and so and when alia says, break your shelf, it's like a metaphor of, like a literal shelf and you're putting things on the shelf that you don't want to like address or deal with that are bothering you about the, about the mormon church, and then eventually you have so much stuff up there that it all just explodes and it just falls down and then you're like holy crap, like yeah, there's so much that I do not like that I'm not okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:so I've just been hot, like I've been having those women since I was a young kid, and so it was one of the bigger moments I remember was like this certain policy that they put in place that I was not okay with, and I was in high school and I was not okay with it, and maybe middle school, I don't know maybe I was like a freshman, um, and I'm not okay with it.
Speaker 2:And then fast forward so many years and they, they changed the policy, they change it back back and I was like, wait, I'm sorry, what? Because that was something that I was like I'm not okay with that. And then it gets like proven to me that it wasn't okay and they changed it back. But then you're also claiming that I should just believe what you say, because god's telling you that it's the right thing. Like that was a big hold up moment for me, and so we were having a discussion and, like you told me, one of the biggest things that you have is like, just have faith isn't an answer yeah, no, that, no, that's a cop out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was. I remember I got defensive at first and I was like no, no, no, and then you're like no, it is.
Speaker 1:And I was like and if you're offended by that, I'm sorry, but that's like I'm just. I'm not saying that's a fact, that it's a cop out, but that's certainly how I believe. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I see it. And and like and I I'm like, yeah, that's not awesome to hear like I don't know if I I don't know if I don't know if I believe you or if I believe in what I've believed in about faith yeah, like I was at a crossroad where I had to like think about what you were saying, because it was like it made sense enough to me that I had to explore that thought yeah and so like it was a big like moment for me.
Speaker 2:And then you same day you told me that like told me a story about like prayer, how you'd never felt like a prayer was answered, and I was like that's so sad. I was like are you like seriously and like I tried like explaining it to you and you were like explaining like my experience and whatever. But then I like now, looking back, I realize like I feel like the times that my prayers were more like answered was like me just like I would pray as a kid to like, freaking, find something that I lost, and then I would like pray and then I would just think about like where was the last place I had this? And then I would remember and I would go find it. Like it was more just like listening and like listening to myself and like having like moments of reflection with myself yeah, that's exactly why feelings alone are not enough to make me believe that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm having a prayer answered, because, like that god is talking to your brain like scientifically? Yeah, the chemicals in your brain can literally make you feel those ways. Yeah, depending on certain aspects of what you're doing right, well, and also I do think that, like like if I had an, if I had a prayer answered. I want it to be. There is no other explanation except that this is an answer.
Speaker 2:I remember what I was gonna say when I forgot they also like teach you that, like in the mormon church, that like God, like knows all of his children, knows you. And so, like he knows absolutely everything, yeah, so you would think that, like, if he knew you, he would know the way that you would need an answer and that's the way he would give it to you. And that is what they believe.
Speaker 2:Yeah and that is what they believe. Yeah, but then it seems like in mormon culture it's more like, yeah, you can have self-revelation, but it has to fall under this umbrella. It's not like it's god talking to you but he talks to me more or in a different way or face to face or whatever right. Like it's human nature to have intuition and to be in touch with nature around you, like we are nature. Of course we would have that energetic connection with things around us, of course. Of course we would want deeper meaning, of course we would want deeper feelings. Of course we want deeper connection. Like that's part of life.
Speaker 2:All living things have that some sort of energetic understanding yeah it's how we like, it's how we communicate, like it's just, it's undeniable, it's science, I mean obviously, like it would take a lot for that to change, like it's something that has been researched so deeply yeah, people will still deny it, though. Yeah yeah, that's wild. Um, yeah, yeah, that's crazy, but like when you're thinking about it, of course, you would be like, okay, well then, because you don't believe in a god, correct?
Speaker 1:yeah, I, I believe that there is not one. It's not just that I think like, yeah, maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I, yeah, I think that there is not. Yeah, I'm not gonna say that I know that. Yeah, because you can't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but nothing has led me to believe it so far yeah, like in the slightest yeah, well, and honestly, like I do think that that's kind of as open-minded that you can be about not believing in a God. Yeah. And like for me, I'm like I have pretty much the same belief, but not quite as polarizing as yours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I— but I do try to be respectful in conversations with people. Yeah, unless you are going to come from a standpoint of like I know that there's a God. If you're going to say like I know that there's a God when I know that you don't know that, then I'm going to be very much polarizing on the opposite end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where I'm like you do get spicy, you can get spicy.
Speaker 1:I know I can get spicy and I won't, I won't take it.
Speaker 2:So I just won't take that place, because I just like don't care to have that conversation, because I know how well, the thing that bothers me is that they expect to just have that people will state their beliefs, to correct mine and I and you can't do that.
Speaker 1:That's not cool like I don't go around every single time I hear someone saying like that's the biggest pet peeve I have is when I say like if there's a God, blah, blah, blah, and someone will say there is a God, and I'm like there is no reason to say that. Don't sit here and correct my beliefs. Right now I am saying what I believe in. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you need to keep your mouth shut, respectfully, yeah, and if, like, if you're saying your thing, then I I'll let you say your thing. You're talking about your beliefs, do, yeah that's.
Speaker 1:That's exactly. My point is like imagine I go into a conversation and someone says, um oh, I'm so grateful to god for these beautiful mountains, and I'm just like there is no god. He didn't make the mountains. Like, how offended do you think they would be? They would be very offended, but they just don't think of like yeah treating other people with the same dignity yeah, that's so true that.
Speaker 2:What a good example. I love that example. That definitely just makes me like understand why that is like it's just decent to not be like that yeah, just let people say what they believe and just leave it at that.
Speaker 1:Like I think, all of us have times where we bite our tongue, based on our beliefs, where people will say things that they believe in that we don't agree with, but we'll just kind of sit there and be like, okay, as long as it's not like too extreme or you know, directly offensive, right, but for whatever reason, with religion, like people just forget honestly, I think that that's truly like one of the issues in america, if I'm being completely honest, because, like american, like christianity can get like wild, like that yeah like and I am like a little bit versed in, you know, other religions like I went to when I was in the army.
Speaker 1:I was literally, literally the only mormon in basic training yeah and because I didn't have a buddy to go to the mormon church with. I couldn't go to the mormon church because you can't go by yourself, and so I would go to non-denominational. I would go to just like the regular christian.
Speaker 1:One time I went to islamic, I forget what the actual term of their religion is but islam islam, yeah, islam, and I learned about like the seven pillars of islam and I actually really liked it. You know, I thought that they were teaching good principles, like if you, if you look up right now seven pillars of Islam, like all seven of those things are like to me, like guidelines of like how to be a decent human being.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and you think about like, Like, I don't have an issue with religion.
Speaker 1:I have an issue with the way that people practice it and portray it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, practice it and portray it. Yeah, and, like you, think about the fact that there are extreme religions and extreme sides of religions and sects of religions and stuff like that, that do take things and turn it into something it shouldn't have been yeah, I mean obviously there's you know crazy religions where you know they think like keep blowing themselves up and killing a bunch of people is gonna result in 70 virgins yeah heaven and stuff and like that's like you can't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like that's you're. You're putting yourself above innocence, innocent people, and that's not something that you and I believe in. Yeah, and that's not. I don't think that's something that majority of people believe in, right, but islam, like the religion of islam, is really looked down in america and stuff like that and because americans are ignorant and we yeah, we don't do enough research to understand that islam regular is completely different from like radical islam yeah, yeah, and like being islamophobic is a thing and I know and like it's, it's sad, and it's sad the way that hate is people see the it's, the burkas
Speaker 1:yeah and like get uncomfortable yeah and and like. They also like. Just like how, during world war ii, they were throwing anyone of asian descent in freaking concentration camps yeah, like that's not okay we feed? I should not we feed. The government in america feeds us with fear and, like it, fears how they control us. Point blank period. If you're not afraid, then you're probably going to be thinking with a rational mind, and to them that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is turning into something that's like way wild Because it's blending hot topics yeah, politics and religion, that's hot topics, but also, at the end of the day, this is Jason and I's podcast and like we are going to talk about the things that we believe in and we hope that that doesn't make you uncomfortable and we hope that you'll listen to us and like we're just trying to be us and like we'll respect you. We want your stories, we want your opinions, we want to share those things and so like we're going to be sharing other point of views and talking about it and and digesting it, how we see it and how we would come to that belief yeah, and I think we're both very do our best to be respectful of other people's thoughts and opinions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but at the same time, we are both very passionate people as well, and so I think sometimes people will mistake our passion for like nagging or like like pointing finger, like yeah like we're really not trying to do that.
Speaker 2:We're just passionate about the things that we believe in and I think that that's important. That's an important aspect of believing in something. But we both are trying to like also work on things where, like, we do realize that we take it too far sometimes. So please have grace with us, we'll have grace with you, because we're all just freaking human at the end of the day, and it's this is hard, it's hard to unlearn things. So, anyways, I think that's kind of a good point to leave it.
Speaker 2:Hopefully you guys understand, like, the flow of how we want to talk about things. And if you would go to the link in our excuse me, I had that weird hiccup again the link in our description and fill out the form of sharing your guys' stories. Again, the form is a little bit of a different format just because we want it to be more philosophical, like this we want you to sit down and, like, think deeply about your beliefs. It'd be cool to share. Um, also, if you feel like you just think deeply and then give us more surface level answers, we're okay with that too. Share what you're comfortable sharing. Yeah, um, you don't have to put your first name or your pronouns, if you don't want to just put na in any section that you're not comfortable answering, or you just don't want to answer because you can answer how thoroughly you want yeah, and the point of this isn't to like talk people out of their beliefs or anything like that we just want to talk about beliefs it just happens that ali and I are of a certain set of beliefs, and so that's the way that we are going to engage and approach conversations well and we're
Speaker 2:in a weird place where we understand a religion and we've left the religion. That's a unique place to be in, yeah, um, when the when you live in the area that the religion is still so prominent in, yeah, and have family members and friends that are a part of it but what I was, what I was going to say, is that we still want to hear from people who to hear from people who are religious.
Speaker 1:Um, what you believe, why you believe what things? We've spoken about that you maybe don't agree with, because it's okay not to agree, and I want to be able to, to look at people's feedback and gain some more understanding of things well, and also just to gain an understanding of how somebody might come to that conclusion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because our brains are different. What makes us, what makes us amazing as living things on planet earth, is that we have the ability to have different opinions. Yeah, and like, our brains are literally that complex.
Speaker 1:When I think this is a great platform to have a discussion like this, because we're not actually in person with anybody. Yeah, of contradicting beliefs, because I think that's where things get a little bit.
Speaker 2:Heated easy.
Speaker 1:Heated, yeah, it's when you can actually feel the emotion in the room. Yeah, and like you just know, like, oh, like they're annoying me. I'm annoying, yeah, and somebody might, but I think like this like kind of allows us to you know connect and actually think about the things that we're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not just base our words so much off of emotion yeah, it's a good place to start practicing that, so that when you are in person with the people around you, it's easier to understand your true emotion and not just say things out of like your, you know, like immediate reaction and it, and it would be a lot better to, as a society, be able to talk about certain things like religion and politics we have been conditioned to not talk about those things.
Speaker 1:Because when we start talking about those things, well, and we have different, a lot of the time I don't necessarily have an issue talking about those things, but like specifically with like your family, I will go to whatever extent necessary to not talk about those things, like as soon as they start coming up in conversation, like I I gotta go do the dishes, or like I need to go to the bathroom like, yeah, I don't want to be involved in that because I know that it's going to get heated yeah and and I do want to be able to have conversations with people in person of like, we don't agree with what each other's saying, and we can actually sit there and say like, oh, like.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't necessarily agree with you, but I respect that you believe that yeah, or not only that, but also like it's just, it's okay to like how you should have deeper understanding of your beliefs and it should be able to like you should be able to argue them, because if you can't, then why do you believe in it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and not even argue them. I understand like not everything has to be like pat. It's not. I'm not talking about like combativeness and like fighting, but arguing is like it's okay to have like discussions that you feel a little bit more passionate about and you do have that kind of fiery like you should have, that you should have that kind of fiery like you should have, that you should have that feeling when you're talking about your beliefs. If not, then why do you believe in it?
Speaker 1:you don't. If you don't feel that way, you don't believe in what you're saying. That's my opinion. I don't think you can, that's what I'm trying to say I think you can tell yourself that you believe in those things.
Speaker 2:But if you don get, if you don't feel a certain type of way when they're challenged, then is that really what you believe in? Well, and is it coming from a place like it's not coming from, like an insecure place Like you need to be, like I know, without a shadow of a doubt? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right now, at this moment of time. But I will listen it, yeah, right now, at this moment of time. But I will listen part of your core right, but also I will listen to other people's opinions, because I do understand that, like I can evolve and change and grow. You should be thinking about why you believe in the things that you believe in. There's like it's important. It is an important core of who you are as a person and literally they talk about it in the freaking Inside Out movies.
Speaker 1:That's the other thing about beliefs. Nowhere does it say you have to believe in something until you die because you started believing in it once upon a time. Beliefs are meant to change sometimes you should be, like you said, evaluating your beliefs from time to time. Do these still line up with who I am and who I want to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, I do want to end on a thought from the four agreements. I'm going to grab it real quick, okay. And then also I do want to say that we do have a friend who studied religion like in, like is very um versed in religion and Christianity and stuff like that Um like at its core, uh, and he has expressed like interest in helping us understand certain things if we um needed his knowledge. So if you guys have any like questions about like actual like Jesus teachings stuff, like not translated, translated, translated version of things, you know he might be a cool connection to have. So if you guys have any specific questions like that, we would love to hear them. That would be awesome. But I'm gonna grab the four agreements real quick. So this book is based off of the ancient toltec um people. They were an ancient people and I love what some of their stuff teaches.
Speaker 1:So I'm just gonna say it's not really like I wouldn't say they were religious people as much as spiritual spiritual, very spiritual people.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is in the first chapter of this book and it has this. Actually, this part is literally underlined by jason, which is funny because this is something I was just listening to this book a few days ago and it's something that stuck to me. And then I come to your book and it's already outlined and I love that. Anyways, we are born with the capacity to learn how to dream, and the humans who live before us teach us how to dream the way society dreams to dream, and the humans who live before us teach us how to dream the way society dreams.
Speaker 2:The outside dream has so many rules that when a new human is born, we hook the child's attention and introduce these rules to his or her mind. The outside dream uses mom and dad, the schools and religion to teach us how to dream. It's just talking about society right now, right society's pressures, society's rules, society's ideas. Attention is the ability we have to to discriminate and to focus only on what we want to perceive. We can perceive millions of things simultaneously, but, using our attention, we can hold whatever we want to perceive in the foreground of our mind. The adults around us hooked our attention and put information into our mind through reputation repetition, not reputation.
Speaker 2:I don't know why this is the way we learned everything we know like this, even goes into yeah, every human being ever right learned like this right and it goes for like culture, religion, politics. This is going for everything Norms. Mm-hmm. And then it also goes on to say that like it's not the people's fault before us, for like they didn't know any better, they're just passing along the information that someone else gave them, yeah, and so like, that's where it's so important.
Speaker 2:The only way excuse me those stupid hiccups, the only way that you can have grace for others and grace like for yourself is if, like, it's okay for people to evolve their minds and thoughts and beliefs and like it's okay to step out of those things yeah, well, and if you don't believe that someone is speaking from a place of truth, someone is speaking from a place of truth like you have to remember that, like they were given a certain information and it's almost inevitable that they would come to that conclusion instill certain beliefs in themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also that, like the people who passed it on to us, right. Like if you don't know better than you can't do better, but if you do know better than you can Like, if you don't know better then you can't do better, but if you do know better then you can like. Or if you do, yeah, if you do know better then you can be better, right. Like it's okay to have grace, it's okay to like mess up and have faults, and like that's also human. Like we need to learn how to have grace for ourselves and others better. Honestly, it's and it's okay to. It's okay to have these conversations and to not be afraid of them and to, like we should have this deep understanding and control of our emotions where, like, we can understand that. Like it's okay to feel a little bit of contention sometimes yeah, yeah but great book.
Speaker 1:I know we've. I know we've recommended this multiple times on the podcast and that's another one to add to the tally right, I know, I really truly like.
Speaker 2:If you want to feel like crap in a very progressive way, here's your book but also not only that, but like, if you want to have a little glimmer, if you're just stuck in this, like I don't know who to be, I don't know what to be, I don't know who I am, I want to know those things, or like I feel like I know who I am, but I'm stuck like what do I do? Like if you just want to like have hope for something, like you can choose to look at those things this way too, it will kind of feel like a slap in the face, because we do have ego, we do have pride. But it's okay, let your ego and your pride be checked, it's okay but I think that is your ego and pride being checked.
Speaker 1:When your ego and pride feels challenged, it's because you know deep down that you're being checked.
Speaker 2:You're accepting that you did something wrong.
Speaker 1:The way you are thinking is not 100% correct, or?
Speaker 2:behaving yeah, yeah, and we should come to those realizations because we should want to grow and to grow. You have to look at those parts of yourself. Yeah, you have to. How are you going to fix the things wrong with yourself if you're not willing to look at what's wrong with yourself? That does not make sense.
Speaker 2:you know what I mean yeah you got to know the problem, to fix the problem. Anyways, it was nice being back. This was a long one since we were back, so hopefully or maybe not hopefully I know some people do enjoy actually the tangents, so we might just have to figure out how to make time for that on a regular basis. But anyways, let us know what you'd prefer, as long as, like episode length and stuff, people do like it when we just go on tangents, so we'll have to see what the people say. We'll have to see what they like, but please fill out that form. Also.
Speaker 2:We would love to hear from you guys. Hopefully you feel comfortable sharing and being a little bit vulnerable. Again, you don't have to leave your name, your first name or your pronouns if you don't want to, but we would like to know your age. That always interests me. And then there's some kind of philosophical questions for you about religion and beliefs that we would love to hear from you and we are sharing. We are planning on sharing on the podcast, so we won't share. We probably won't share like first names.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, I know of people that we like know I might share for those that do leave, you know male or female or whatever. Yeah, Because I just think it's interesting to look at the statistical side of things. Yeah With how men and women think differently or similarly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fun to kind of look at that and again, obviously we will respect um non-binary as well, so please know that that is safe in this space and we will not tolerate people being stupid about that to us, so please don't be um. Yeah, we would like to be inclusive, so we expect that on all sides of the coin. But it was nice talking again and we'll see you guys next time thanks y'all.
