The Extra
The Extra is a podcast hosted by Crosspoint Christian Church in Conyers, Georgia. Senior Minister, Curtis Zehner, and his friend, Ken Pierce, talk through each week's sermon unpacking the extra material that didn't make the cut for the weekend message. Curtis' and Ken's conversational and relaxed style lend itself to listeners of all ages and spiritual maturities.
The Extra
Grace Ann Miller talks Worship Ministry
Unlock the secrets of worship music with us as we welcome Grace Miller, a distinguished worship minister, to this special holiday episode. Grace shares her journey from performing alongside Andrea Bocelli in Atlanta to orchestrating a Christmas program that melds classical and contemporary tunes. Discover how her academic background enriches her approach to crafting Sunday morning worship sets, offering a refreshing perspective on the artistry involved in creating an inviting spiritual atmosphere.
Check out more at www.CrosspointConyers.com
Merry Christmas from podcast land. Doesn't it feel good to have a little sleigh bells in the background? Welcome back, oh man, it's good to be back. What?
Speaker 3:has it been. Three, three weeks four weeks, let's say three weeks.
Speaker 2:Four weeks sounds too long Four weeks, three weeks, three weeks, who knows? Yeah, that's exactly why you tuned in today was to hear Ken and I Say four and three, four and three, three, four, three four. That's something that you do like as a music person when you're checking microphones.
Speaker 3:One, two.
Speaker 2:One, two, yeah, two, three. And you're conducting Two, three. That's a perfect segue for us, because today we have a special guest in the studio. We have our very own worship minister in the studio with us today. Grace Miller is going to be sharing some thoughts about worship and how things at the church happen on Sunday mornings. We're also going to dive into some song analysis. I'm looking forward to that. Are you ready to go, kim?
Speaker 3:This is the episode I've been waiting on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is in your wheelhouse Personally. Yeah, this is the reason you built the studio in your house.
Speaker 3:It is yeah at this moment, Yep.
Speaker 2:So buckle up everybody. We're going to have a good ride. Grace, welcome to the studio with us today.
Speaker 1:Hello, I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Isn't it so great to be here.
Speaker 1:It is. I mean, don't undersell it either, Like oversell it for the people who are listening. Yeah, I mean I have waited, since we even talked about having a podcast to be on the extra, in case of listeners want to know. The extra was my number two podcast that I listened to on my Spotify wrapped. Um, I did have over 2000 minutes and I think a good, probably 500 minutes if not more, that's probably the extra.
Speaker 2:You listen to a lot of podcasts, then huh.
Speaker 1:I listen to a lot, yeah, what was number one.
Speaker 3:You can't tell, can you?
Speaker 1:It was. It's actually the rise and fall of Mars Hill.
Speaker 3:Mars Hill, mars Hill.
Speaker 1:Which is. Which was Mark Driscoll's church that fell.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well that fell yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Oh well, you know, I, that's an that seems like an odd one for you to be listening to, but I guess maybe it was interesting.
Speaker 1:I had a friend recommended to me back in like January.
Speaker 3:Is that on the true count and true crime, end of things.
Speaker 1:No, but true crime was my number three.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So it was Mark Driscoll's church that collapsed us, and then true crime.
Speaker 1:Sandwiched, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're right sandwiched in there.
Speaker 1:That's good. Sorry, Marcos.
Speaker 2:Great, that's okay. Well, grace, I'm so glad that you're with us today. We're going to talk about the process of preparing music for Sunday morning and then, as a bonus part of our episode, we're going to talk about some song analysis, breaking down a couple of worship songs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we're coming off a great weekend. We had our Christmas program, grace you did such a great job organizing all that.
Speaker 2:Your choir sounded amazing, your band was tight, everybody sounded really good, and that was even overcoming a technical difficulty that sometimes you just can't prevent. Those things Turns out. A fuse blew on one of the amplifiers and so, like half the speakers weren't working for about a quarter to half of the actual worship set, but it still sounded that good.
Speaker 3:Everything still had presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great, it was excellent yeah. So let's just from your vantage point. What did you appreciate from Sunday as the leader of that? What'd you take away from it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was very. For those who don't know, I actually study classical music in college right now, which is very different than contemporary worship music. Very different, Very, very different than contemporary worship music Very different.
Speaker 1:Very, very different. And something that was really cool to me was to take what I have been learning and apply it in a Sunday morning without changing the whole way that our services run. So I was able to find a big cantata of music and, uh, perform it for the congregation and really open their hearts to receive rather than, um, your standard, uh, Sunday morning corporate worship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so explain a little bit of the difference between, just in a couple of words, of classic classical music and contemporary music. Yes Uh us, uh us us, morons who don't know what that means yeah help us understand well, your, your classical music is going to be um.
Speaker 1:Most people know andrea pocelli see the guy that's blind.
Speaker 2:Yes, he's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um a voice like an angel yes, and I did get to sing with him and it was like the greatest day of my life, but anyways, you sang on stage with Andrea Bocelli. I did back in February when he came through Atlanta.
Speaker 2:What was uh? Did you get paid to do this? Like, are you a professional? No, I wasn't a choir.
Speaker 1:I got the opportunity through UGA, but it wasn't a UGA event, um, but anyways, you guys can ask me about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh later. Uh, going kind of back into the difference in classical and, uh, traditional worship or congregational worship, classical has a lot of connotations of just sitting listening and this kind of like uppity-ness, um, I mean, goes back years and years and years ago. Yeah, whereas with sorry, I paused.
Speaker 2:Contemporary music.
Speaker 1:With contemporary music. It is a lot more modern. It is a lot more English, Okay.
Speaker 2:So you're saying a lot of the stuff that you're learning in school is a different language.
Speaker 1:Oh, completely.
Speaker 2:What's the most popular stuff that you're learning in?
Speaker 1:school is a different language. Oh, completely. What's the most popular language that you sing in? That I sing in is probably German, but I would say in your standard repertoire it's going to be Italian.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, das ist gut, gut, ja, liederhosen yes.
Speaker 1:We know.
Speaker 2:German? Ja, we know German. Ja, my last name is Zaner. Yeah, we know German.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We know German, yeah, my last name is Zaner, of course I know German, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you're singing in German or Italian, do you find it more difficult to get into the emotive parts?
Speaker 3:Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Just.
Speaker 3:Connecting with the language.
Speaker 1:Okay, actually, I personally struggle with connecting with English art, songs and arias rather than foreign languages? Um, because there's more room for interpretation, I feel, in different languages. Uh, whereas in English it's just kind of there and you're like, oh my gosh, like this is English, everybody who's listening probably can understand exactly what I'm saying, or? Is supposed to Um, whereas in German it's, it's can be so much more over. Or I say German, cause that's just what.
Speaker 1:I'm saying but in a in a different language, it can be so much more emotive and really just over-exaggerative.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So you have to be more emotive. Is that what you're saying? Because it's a different language, or that's just how those languages are? You know, cause, like in preaching a lot of times I'll I'll talk about like the Greek language because, that's.
Speaker 2:You know what the Septuagint, the Bible was written in, uh translated into. And there's a whole lot more depth to the Greek language than there is our English language. So we might have one word for love, but Greek has at least three that are used in scripture. Is it because those other languages are like, deeper with meaning, or are you having to emote more because it's a different language?
Speaker 1:I think a mix of both, because I can you know for native English speakers, I can sit here and say this is what I'm talking about, but if I'm like das ist was ich spreche about, or whatever the right way to say, it is like you're not going to pick up on what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Sorry for the butchered German. I don't know if I'm supposed to be impressed by that or like Well, be impressed. Yeah, that's good Grace, come on my podcast and speak a different language. That sounds like a great plan today. Thanks for that, yeah.
Speaker 1:But all that to say in totality, there is, I would say, a huge difference, but a cool difference that we see in comparing, um, comparing your, you know, classical traditional music versus your contemporary modern music, and I think it's a constant change that we're even seeing today, um kind of veering away from the classical music side, uh, stepping out of that tradition into the realm of uh well, that's the word I'm looking for Um, like holy music sacred, sacred, yeah it left my brain, uh, stepping out of that tradition of sacred music.
Speaker 1:We get hymns, and into hymns we get kind of this like 2000s era where we're like we're going to only sing four chords and in those four chords we have to stay in this box. You know, still following that kind of which, that is what classical music is. You stick to the music.
Speaker 3:Rules yeah.
Speaker 1:You do not like counterpoint, Counterpoint, I hate counterpoint.
Speaker 3:That's what kicked me out of music Really. Yeah, I just that's what they said do not, don't even think about trying to study music ever again.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, can you take it, but I mean, that's so demoralizing.
Speaker 3:I don't know your experience with it, but at Young Harris, where I went, there was an ivory tower that all the music faculty inhabited proudly and they were like so you don't even read bass clef, yeah Bye.
Speaker 2:Gosh, that's just horrible. Yeah, Ken, we know you want to do this for your whole life, but really you're terrible at it, so you should quit.
Speaker 3:Try physical education or something Like, something like that, like they were snooty about it Be a PE teacher.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Counterpoint was just difficult. Yeah, it was like chess.
Speaker 1:I don't, that was. I took counterpoint. It was really big in like my music theory, one class that I took five years ago and I don't remember a single thing. And I don't have to remember a single thing, because if I want to compose music, I'm going to compose it how it sounds best, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well let's talk. Let's talk a little bit about composing music, then, because your college career is about is focused on classical music, all of these ridiculous terms that the two of you can nerd out about, but me and all the other listeners, we're fading, okay.
Speaker 1:They're running off the road. Yeah Right, don't crash your car right now.
Speaker 2:Look out for the deer. Yeah, actually, my mom hit a deer a few weeks ago.
Speaker 3:Oh no, that's why I thought of that. Too soon, yeah Well everyone's alive. We're fine, okay.
Speaker 2:I was in the car, I wasn't driving. Okay, I digress, it came out of nowhere, it was no one's fault. I just felt like mom, it wasn't your fault.
Speaker 3:Clear her name. Okay, I've said it now.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, grace, you are a worship minister as your profession, right Full-time student, but also a part-time music minister at our church, and that sounds like a pretty big difference between what you're doing in school and how we do things on Sunday, because a lot of our music is four chords and follow the progression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely get a slap on the wrist sometimes at school for that I'll be in a lesson and my professor will be like you've, I've been. I can tell you've been singing at church too much, so it's always it's always it's a it's. It's a fun balance. But yes, it is.
Speaker 1:It is very strange is the best word to use, but strange is the best word to use Um, but I, I kind of like, it's kind of like my party trick is like it's like in my back pocket and I can just whip it out and be like I can sing um this Mozart aria if you want to hear it right now. No, not right now. Um, uh.
Speaker 2:I think we'll take a quick break from a word from our sponsors and we'll come back, yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, but you know it is a big difference but honestly, I think it has played a big part in myself as a musician and has really in both ways has helped, Like, for example, right now I'm programming my senior recital that'll be in the spring and I think, you know, having the task of programming Sunday mornings every week, it has really helped me to say, OK, I want to go from this idea and this key to this song and this key and I want to include this piece and I want to include that piece. Um, and has made planning what is an hour of me singing uh, which seems like a very daunting task, and to actually a not so scary one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not as intimidating, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So start from the beginning. How does a worship set become a worship set from from nothing to? We're doing it on Sunday morning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so first things first. Um, I listened to a lot of CCM.
Speaker 2:What is that CCM?
Speaker 1:CCM stands for contemporary Christian music. Um also stands for a different term in classical music, but we're talking today CCM.
Speaker 2:So does just any Christian song fall into that category?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then it kind of breaks up into your subgroups of, like, indie Christian. You know, you have your like Chris Renzma stands, your Josiah Queen stands, you have your Maverick city music. You have all of these different spectrums within that. I just kind of like to put them all in that blanket term ccm.
Speaker 2:I'd never, I'd never heard of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go I might be making it up. I don't think I am but if I am welcome to my podcast all right, hot take.
Speaker 2:Do you like? C, let's move on.
Speaker 1:The face that.
Speaker 2:Grace just made. I don't know if we want her answer.
Speaker 1:It kind of. I think, yes, I you know not to hate on this song. The song Glorious Day is a great song.
Speaker 2:It is a great song. It's your favorite song. Phil Wickham, right. Phil Wickham, no. Christian Stanfield, Christian Stanfieldfield.
Speaker 3:The version that I'm more familiar with is live and it's a bunch of different people, oh yeah. Including Phil Wickham Okay.
Speaker 1:Live music versus studio music is a completely different path that we could wander off on. I love that song. I do think it gets kind of repetitive in my opinion, and it's an easy song to grasp. Songs that are kind of repetitive, in my opinion, um, and it's an easy song to grasp, like songs that are kind of built like that. I kind of listened to it and I'm like, okay, I'm listening to Caleb, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, um, and me personally, just cause it's what I have grown up Like. I mean my mom every morning would play the fish constantly.
Speaker 2:There we go. Now we're talking. Yeah, my brother-in-law works for the fish. Got to give some shout out, mike Kelly. Way to go, man 104.7.
Speaker 1:But anyway. So like my whole life I've listened to just the CCM genre. I think now that I'm getting older and I like finally have broken out of that and realized there's other music, I'm like, okay, that's kind of boring, you know, that's fair enough. Yeah, just with the and this is not to hate on anybody who loves it. I I listened to it too, still, um, clearly, because it is my one of my top genres on Spotify wrapped.
Speaker 1:Um, and it's what you work in, it's what I work, yeah, um but it can be, it can be repetitive, it can be a be a little bit um, it can be a little bit much, but I, I appreciate that, um, the kind of ccm blanket of music has kind of really expanded. And now you have I like to, I like to call it this I you have artists who are christian making music okay who aren't technically making like Christian music, if that makes sense Like one of my favorite bands has.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're so small they have like less than 10,000 listeners on Spotify. It's called Zion Goins. They're really small, based in Georgia, but they, their music is all Christ inspired, Even if it doesn't directly reference him. And like that is the music that I have found I can find true worship in, because it's hard when I'm singing uh, CCM music like light, glorious day every every Sunday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it gets repetitive. It does get repetitive Um so you're picking songs for Sunday then?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am.
Speaker 2:So you're listening to these CCM songs all the time.
Speaker 1:All the time?
Speaker 2:How does a Sunday happen?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I come in on um Monday mornings or I sit down at a desk on Monday mornings, depending on where I am Um, and I just kind of I kind of go down from the top. I have templates set. I always like to start off with a well-known upbeat song, because the first thing you want to do on a Sunday morning is not listen to something that's going to put you to sleep. So always something upbeat. I love going towards something like Glorious Day.
Speaker 3:Kind of driving yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Or taking a um, taking a hymn, like I'll fly away and really vamping it up and putting some uh backbone into it. Uh, to just kind of, when you walk in, feel that like warm embrace of like okay, like we're here to like, we're here to worship. Yeah, the familiarity in the room makes a big difference for people's engagement. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And that's really what we're doing, right? I was having a discussion recently with somebody about church and some churches call their Sunday mornings the Sunday morning experience and like great, you know, a name is a name. We don't call it an experience because my philosophy, is my personal viewpoint. We're not here to experience something, we're here to give ourselves so that Jesus experiences our worship.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:And so when we come in, we're not just singing songs that we know and that are familiar so that we'll get energized and the crowd will clap. We're showing up to church to give our worship to Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and I think that's a big thing that we saw. This past Sunday I walked in and um had put together a cantata based style kind of program for the church where there wasn't much corporate worship involved. Um and so like, cool, it's an experience, but we're still sitting and worshiping and receiving rather than giving you know. Uh, but always want to do and worshiping, and receiving rather than giving. Yeah, you know, but always want to do songs that are well-known. That is number one.
Speaker 1:It is nice to throw a new song in there, and if I'm going to do that, I like to do it in either the second or the third song, giving it space to, giving it space for the congregation to learn it, um, but also making sure that it's not a moment where, like it's like after the sermon, and uh, we're in this nice invitation moment and I'm like we're going to sing this new song that nobody has ever sung before, because as soon as you hear something that's unfamiliar, you disconnect.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Shoulders go down yeah exactly you, um and no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's difficult, it can be very difficult. So you're picking out songs based on familiarity and your uh ability to help the congregation be pulled in to sing those songs. Um, you'll introduce some new songs every now and then. So once you've got your arrangement and kind of the musical preparation side of it right, you got your transitions and this song is the same key. I'm just kind of like talking for you, but you're agreeing with me.
Speaker 1:These are the things that you do?
Speaker 2:Uh, at what point do you need to make changes? And like, how do you bring your band and your vocal team in on the play?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so after all of that, uh, every Wednesday we have a rehearsal. Um, most Wednesdays we have a rehearsal, uh, and that is our time to really come in. I encourage the team Uh, I don't ever call it a practice, because there's a different mindset behind a practice and a rehearsal. A practice is you're coming in to learn the music. A rehearsal is okay, I've listened to the music, I've learned the music. Let's come in and make it the best it can be. Uh, so when we walk into a rehearsal Wednesday, uh, I like to just run it from the top and that is where I see, okay, that key isn't singable for our group or, uh, that song kind of, uh kind of feels awkward in this place. Like how can I? How can I fix that? You know how can I? It's really a chance to kind of walk in and workshop a set before Sunday. So we don't show up on Sunday and it just kind of like yeah, it takes you by surprise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:So let's say, um, I'm out in the audience like normal Right and I'm just not really much of a singer. You know what do you? You have any advice or anything to say to a person who you know comes to Sunday morning and a lot of our service is singing, but I don't really like to sing, grace. What should I do?
Speaker 1:Singing is not the only form of worship is the first thing that I would say. I think a lot of times we get stuck in the mindset uh, because it is a genre of music is worship, uh, but worship is so much more than singing. Um, you know, I, I, I like to um, try and connect music with words. I know, um, like, one of my things is, uh, I think one year I tried to do Easter and tried to involve every single different type of way to worship, whether it be through prayer, whether it be through adoration, through scripture, through music, like it's. It's it's kind of like love languages. We each have our own personal way of worship, and so the first thing I would say is that's OK. Like, if singing is not your thing, that is, that is fine. Like there are so many different ways, um, to worship. Now, if you're just singing cause you're scared, your voice sucks, I would say throw that all behind you, because the only way that you can get better is if you keep doing it.
Speaker 2:Um we could just turn up the volume in the room, so then nobody could hear each other singing.
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's like? What is that like the Passion City model, you know, you pump the music so loud that you cannot even hear yourself sing.
Speaker 3:After reverb like just keep adding reverb yeah.
Speaker 1:Was it the store Hollister that used to bump music so loud that you wouldn't think when you were buying clothes, so you would impulsively buy more Great idea Wouldn't be surprised, that's like what a casino would do.
Speaker 3:Don't get me started on that, but yeah, that sounds like a casino.
Speaker 2:No windows, no clocks, just buy clothes. We know how to get your money and play the music louder. Maybe we should do that at offering time next week. All right, let's get back on track here. Uh, so okay. So if I'm not a singer, I get that right. There's other ways to worship. So what do you, if anything, picture in your head while you're worshiping? Like, what are you focusing on?
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, for me, I mean, I feel like being a worship minister is pretty self-explanatory. What I'm about to say is like but music is the way I worship, you know, and when I, when I am singing on a Sunday morning, I just like, I want to be fully present in the hands and feet of Jesus.
Speaker 1:you know, which can be hard, because there are a million different things happening which can be hard because there are a million different things happening and, like my first year and a half of of doing this, I really struggled with, like finding that balance, you know, like walking off of a stage and being like, oh my gosh, that transition didn't go right, or oh my gosh, I should have done that differently, or oh my, I sang the wrong words.
Speaker 1:But if you, like I have just learned, I have to take a breath, I have to like, I have to put in preparation into my spirit before I even step in on a Sunday, like, if I am not in the word of God, it is evident on a Sunday morning, like I face so much more doubt, I face so much more oh, I should have done that differently. But when I like truly spend time with him and prepare outside of a Sunday morning service, um, and really just dive in with him outside of that, that is when it is at its easiest and it is just so easy to step up there and to just be like this is what God has gifted me with. Like I'm going to stand here and worship him. And this is what God has gifted me with. Like I'm going to stand here and worship him. And I want to invite you to do the same.
Speaker 2:So I'm really interested in this. Might be really good for some people. Uh, what, give me some practicals. What are you doing to prepare yourself? You know you said being in the word, spending time with him, but what does that mean? Are you reading something specific? Are you on a program of, like worship leaders, devotional, I don't know? Like, give me some practicals.
Speaker 1:I mean, actually one of my favorite Instagram pages is, uh I think his name is John M Thurlow or something like that Um, but the stuff he posts he posts like little, like um, carousel devotionals, Um, and even just seeing that during the week, like he has really challenged my mindset to shift in thinking when it comes to stuff like that, and when I first followed him, it was one of his posts that like completely made me think oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:The reason I'm struggling with this doubt and just of uncertainty on a Sunday morning is because I'm not spending enough time connecting with him before this. You know, uh, when we, when we are with him, like we are at peace in a, in a strange way, you know, even if it is the craziest week of our life, like Jesus brings peace, he brings peace in the chaos, and, um, that just kind of like reminded me, and so I, even if it's just like opening up my Bible app and reading the chapter of the verse of the day or whatever, like I am filling myself through that, through listening to podcasts, through listening to just a variety of different things.
Speaker 2:You do that stuff on Saturday nights or like Sunday mornings or just throughout the week, is what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I try and do it as much as possible. I'm not a perfect person, so it doesn't happen every day.
Speaker 2:I mean, some people are super regimented on stuff like that and they need to be, and other people I'm going to call you a creative and I'm going to loop creatives into a very generalized statement here. A lot of times creatives aren't as regimented with their life. You know, we just kind of go from one moment to the next and everything will get taken care of eventually. Yeah, so is that kind of how things play out for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would. I would say so. It's definitely a you know, as a type seven. It's a day by day basis.
Speaker 3:You're Enneagram type seven.
Speaker 1:Oh, straight up to the T. Yeah, I don't want to paint that with a bad brush or anything like that, no, but I mean it has its strengths. And then it has its weaknesses, like I can be so spontaneous that I neglect myself, uh myself, of quiet time, of alone time. Like I fill my day with so much stuff and I try and please so many people in that um, that it kind of just, you know, it is easy to forget, it is easy to like um, neglect that that part.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know you are so a type seven.
Speaker 1:I am so a type seven.
Speaker 2:This is how I know Grace's Enneagram seven Before we recorded today, before we turned the mics on, grace goes. Man flights on Frontier are only $15 to Puerto Rico right now. Let's go. And I'm thinking okay, first of all, why do you even need to go to Puerto Rico?
Speaker 3:You're like focus Grace.
Speaker 2:But that's it, that's your, that's your spontaneous personality you know living in the moment and and uh. But then you also have the side of you that uh, I think you and I've talked a lot about in in the office, which is like sometimes you can get in, not just you, but type sevens can get into this people pleasing uh kind of place where you're operating out of trying to please all these people. So how have you combated that part of your personality as the leader on Sunday mornings for the congregation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had to. I've had to learn. It's okay to tell people that they need to change something or that you need to say no, you know. Uh, learning how to say no is still a daily struggle for me, um, cause I am the kind of person I instantly just love to say yes to things like I can't, can I, can you help me with this? Yes, you know, even if I have five minutes, I'm like yes, um, but just learning how to say no, I think it was one of our um during my residency. One of the things that we talked about was like, let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Speaker 1:Like um, so that has been a big thing for me. Uh is just learning to say no, like learning to find time for myself.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's very good.
Speaker 3:Being a people pleaser and a band leader or an ensemble leader can be tricky, because you sometimes do need to say ease up on the cymbals, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know something like that.
Speaker 3:Switch to chords.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 3:No, we're going to the A minor.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:This is really good. Right now I've got band director in Grace and Ken who is band, so tell me a little about Ken Perpetual side man yeah, weigh in on the relationship between being in the band with the band director, maybe not even necessarily just Grace, I mean talk about your relationship if you want to Come on, ken, hear your grievances now no grievances the best thing, especially for an uninitiated musician.
Speaker 3:Like I said, I was asked to leave a music program, so if somebody says, hey, ken, can you switch to the ride cymbal bell, if you were to say that to me, I'd be like I will absolutely switch to the ride cymbal bell, because that is not language that somebody that doesn't know what they're talking about would use. If you said, hey, could you do like a, I'd be like no, I'm not doing that. I feel like I say that all the time. No, but you say can you give me a wash on the symbols?
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, you say that. I've heard you say that that is language that I'm like.
Speaker 3:Okay, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've heard that I've heard you say that that is language that I'm like. Okay, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:I don't even have to ask you do.
Speaker 3:you mean this. I know what you're talking about because you use the right language. So many times, when you're talking from voice to drums or drums to guitar or bass to voice or piano, you try to use the language of the instrument and every instrument has their own language and you can't do it. Sometimes people can't do it. You're absolutely learning that process and saying, hey, can you switch to like kind of a pumping eighth note rhythm on the bass or something you could learn how to do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And a bass player that is there for the music and for the band is going to say oh yeah, I can do that because she knows what she wants.
Speaker 2:A band leader that doesn't know what they want not good A band leader that doesn't know what they want. They'll say things like Ken, give me a little bit of the boom, boom, boom, boom. Exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when he's on the talkback, did you?
Speaker 1:like that Grace Was that good. Yeah, I did it was perfect.
Speaker 2:I could be in the UGA music program. Give me a break.
Speaker 3:When Curtis is on the talkback, mike during when he's playing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It is such a relief, it is such a great time for me because he can speak the language and he knows exactly what he wants. Like in the moment. Yeah, it's like in the moment. Yeah, that's a lot of fun. It can go from something that might be stale to something that sounds spontaneous.
Speaker 2:But there's a dialogue, there's an important relationship between the person they call that a music director, music director, so Grace, she is the director, she is the music director of everything, the czar, but there's usually a person on stage, not necessarily at our church. Sometimes we have that person called a music director who's off in the back and has a microphone that only the band can hear and their little headphones and that person's job is to make the worship minister's vision for the day happen with the rest of the band, and so you gotta have a.
Speaker 2:the music director has to know what the leader wants and their personality and kind of like understand flows of music. And so, you know, sometimes we've had that feeling. We've looked at each other and I'll be on bass and you're on drums and it's like, all right, we know Grace wants to go here Build it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you'll say build it. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah. The MD is such a it's not crucial because, like we don't, we don't need it yeah. But it is. It is a really cool and a really helpful position and the times I have worked with an MD, it's really, you know, it's really interesting. Most of the time, MDs also have Ableton, which is the software that pumps through and keeps you on time and on track, so you are more at liberty to be like we're going to repeat this chorus right now. And just stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But you do have a little bit of that built into the current system. Yeah, we do right so we're like pulling back the curtain on some things, for so if you, this is, this is your look behind about what happens in the headset of the people on stage on some days, it's actually would maybe surprise a lot of people that the thing you hear most in your headphones is always it's just this clicking and it's super loud and it will like pierce your eardrums after a while.
Speaker 3:It sounds so beautiful though. It is a comforting tone, Cause you hate it when you if it ever goes away.
Speaker 2:I mean we're dead in the water.
Speaker 3:I can't play without one though.
Speaker 2:It's really difficult. It's really difficult.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not one of those Germans. I don't need no click. Yeah, I'm seriously. I need like you better give me a click and make it loud. Yeah, like I don't want to hear my drums over it.
Speaker 2:You're not a human metronome.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not respect to those who are respect. Um, yeah, we have a lot of click. Um, we have some also just some supporting instruments in the track, sometimes like we don't have a regular electric guitarist. So something that we're at Liberty to do because of the wonderful wide web and technology is we can put some into the track you know we can fill the room with that sound, so people who may be able may be afraid to sing feel comfortable with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Okay, let's shift gears.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, you wanted to do a little bit of song analysis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk about a couple of songs.
Speaker 2:Now, because of copyright things, I can't play those songs over our airwaves.
Speaker 1:That's okay.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I don't want to be on the hook of.
Speaker 3:So we're going to acapella them. We're going to acapella them.
Speaker 2:Alright, do our vocal warm ups. Do re mi fa so la ti do. So let's talk about a couple of these. You gave us three songs. That you'd like to comment on Any particular reason why you picked these songs.
Speaker 1:Well, so one of them I picked Because it is what I would, without a doubt, say is one of our congregations favorite songs.
Speaker 2:Which one is that?
Speaker 1:That is ancient gates by Brooke Ligerwood. Every time that we play it, whether it be the opening song or the invitation song or anywhere in the service, it is always the one I I can like hear the congregation almost roaring singing and I think a lot of it has to do with Brooke Ligerwood songwriting ability, I feel like I me personally. I think that everything she writes is honestly so scripturally backed and just so personable. In that sense, if I ever, ever need to pick me up like she's my first, first listen you know always, but Ancient Gates has just such that strong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's got a great pulse to it. It has a great pulse to it.
Speaker 3:And then one cool thing about it when I get to play this is it starts with a strong pulse and then you can go into. There's this little pickup into the second verse and it goes even one step further.
Speaker 1:It's like a constant evolution of the beat. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's funny that just adding I'm not playing any louder. If I play it, I'm keeping the bass drum going and then doubling the hi-hat. That's my approach to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Now, levi and Bo.
Speaker 3:They do it differently which is great.
Speaker 1:Oh, every drummer has their different DNA. It's great that there's three different drummer feels.
Speaker 3:And I can't wait to get back into the rotation. But the bass drum keeps going and I just double the hi-hat and it gives you a little push. Yeah, and that's all you need to go. Oh, okay, we're going somewhere. Yeah, and that's a lot of fun to see people start clapping their hands, even modestly.
Speaker 1:It's like, okay, they're feeling something, yeah, always the room's moving. It is yeah, and it is an instant move room mover.
Speaker 3:There's a tongue twister, yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, I, I, you know that is really one of the main reasons I picked it is just to talk about it was that, you know congregational pool that that song has. I think the the lyrics are just phenomenal. Um, they're singing at the ancient gates. There's a melody of uh, ceaseless praise, h2h. The sound is only growing stronger. You know, it's something that, um, we see in. I'm going to actually look it up really quickly because I wrote the verse but I didn't write what the verse says and I'm so sorry but I don't know.
Speaker 1:It off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:That song's in my head because, from a percussionist standpoint, like you're saying, it's got such a nice pulse to it.
Speaker 1:We call that four on the floor.
Speaker 2:And it does that through the entire song. It really like you. You sync up with it. After a moment it's like a heartbeat of the song, right it's.
Speaker 3:It's in that magic tempo range from like anywhere from 190 to one from 90 to 130 beats per minute. That's just, everybody likes it. Yeah, you're going, you're going to be able to groove to that and that's what. That's what a somebody that plays drums and learned from the radio learned from Top 40 Classic Rock Radio that's how I'm going to feel things. A lot of drums now in modern Christian music are tom heavy and I am not a tom heavy drummer. I can get it done with hi-hat bass drum, snare drum, crash, no toms fine, no big deal.
Speaker 3:I can get it done with hi-hat bass, drum snare, drum crash. Yeah, no, toms. Fine, no big deal. I can get it done with four things.
Speaker 2:Christian music these days is really Tom heavy. Yeah, cause they're epic sounding.
Speaker 3:They have potential to just be huge.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, grace. Get back to this verse.
Speaker 1:So one of the one of the big verses that this kind of, uh, the lyrical stuff is pulled from is Psalm 118, 19 through 20. And it says uh, open to me the gates of the temple and I will go in and give thanks to the Lord. This is the gate of the Lord. Only the righteous can come in. Um, and I just, you know, that song just first of all fully solidifies that verse. In my opinion, velineal's too, uh, but it's just, and especially cause it, it ends with that the one who was the one, who is the one who is to come, just repeating that over and over again, uh, and just, really, I mean putting an exclamation point on it.
Speaker 2:There's deep roots in doing that, like repeating a line over and over again, especially it's not a chant. There's a cadence to it. The one who was the one, who is the one who is to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was all you get today of me singing. It's very, it's like a prayer yeah Right, it is. And it's very, it's like a prayer, right it is, and that at certain times of day, like if you go back, if you're reading in the New Testament, jesus, you know when he teaches us to pray. You know we should. We're adopting an ancient technique of praying and there were prescriptive times per day when you should pray, for you know a first century Jewish person and at those times you stop and you say the prayer.
Speaker 2:It's the same prayer every day, the same prayer at the same time every day, and it's prescriptive for your mind and your spirit to focus you in on the one, in this case the one who is the one, who was the one who is to come case, the one who is the one, who was the one who is to come, and I think that in a cool way, from my perspective anyway we're kind of participating with an ancient way of talking to God, yeah Well, and kind of to go off of that.
Speaker 1:I think with that too, like it is an almost, there's a cadence to it, but it's a cadence that can be displayed in so many different ways Like no matter what scenario you're going through, that song is always able to be applicable, always. You know it's not isolated to. If you're sad, jesus can make you happy. You know it's not solidified to. If you're struggling with this, jesus can fix it. Like it is a full spectrum of like. If you like, just sit and worship at his feet. Like that, that is all. That is what we are called to do is we are called to worship him, and I think that that is a big reason why the congregation grasps onto it is because it is just so. You know, I walked in today and this is what I'm feeling and I can sing this song and know that you know he is the one, who is the one who is to come.
Speaker 2:Is there a difference between worshiping and acknowledging God? Going to be quiet for a second while we think. You know as I'm, I'm just hearing what you're saying and my thoughts are developing. Like when we say worship, the picture that comes to mind is that there's a band playing and a team of singers singing from the stage and that the congregation is supposed to open their mouths and sing the same melody that everybody else is singing in the same words, but maybe, maybe that's a picture of worship that we need to maybe back away from a little bit, like we do that on Sundays, oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:That isn't necessarily the eternal definition of worship if you will.
Speaker 1:No, it's not.
Speaker 2:But simply acknowledging God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, that's what worship is.
Speaker 2:God, you are the one who was, you are the one who is and you are the one who is to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like with a mind focused on God, just saying it is worship, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and something that I love that Brooke does is I. Just the keys of her song are so easy for men or women, and you know it is. It is at a like, at a key word, the one who was the one, who is the one who is to come, picks up at your own vocal cadence, so you can just say it like you can just speak it, you know, Cause it follows that same rhythmic pattern that our voices tend to go to.
Speaker 2:It isn't. You know, I'm thinking of some places in scripture where maybe I've applied my understanding of worship to the words that were written on the page. John sees this vision of heaven, and you've got all these creatures who are standing around the throne saying holy, holy, holy the Lord, god Almighty, who was and is and is to come. I think I just butchered that verse, but there's a holy, holy, holy. Like we've applied music to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was developed over centuries later. Yeah, that, yeah, that was developed over centuries later, like that. So what did john actually hear when he saw the vision of the, the creatures in heaven, singing?
Speaker 1:to god, was it anything?
Speaker 3:like what we experienced as singing worship or was it?
Speaker 2:or were they just chanting this? You know, holy, holy, holy, and it had cadence and rhythm to it and maybe there was a 12-piece band that were ripping it up in an MD in the state.
Speaker 1:Jesus on the drums yo, but that is worship.
Speaker 2:We get this picture that worship is happening constantly in heaven.
Speaker 3:That's true, yeah, and it's necessarily musical. We say it's necessary, there's got to be music attached to it, but maybe not Because that's our context.
Speaker 2:We hear music when we hear these words, but was there actually music with those words? Or was it just them acknowledging God, who was sitting on the throne, and all they could do was just speak about how holy he is? There's literally no other words that can come to my brain right now because of how holy you are. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1:That's actually a perfect segue into our second song, because the whole concept of the song is derived from Revelations 4. That's Endless Praise by Charity Gale. And let me just say for a second Charity Gale can tear the house down.
Speaker 2:She's good.
Speaker 1:If I could have any person's vocals in the world, I would. I would want hers. I feel like that's a really hot take maybe to some people.
Speaker 1:Um, I just that's high praise oh gosh, there's just something about her music that is just so like refreshing. Oh my gosh, and that's that's kind of. This whole song is, um, endless praise. I know I don't think y'all have ever listened to it, but I heard this song and you know like I I have gotten emotional to music before, but I'm not like a I'm gonna sit in the car and listen to music and then end up crying like that's not really who I am. But this song I just had my like spotify shovel on and it comes through and it just like I mean, it just filled me with this overwhelming like oh my gosh, like adoration and that she, she, she takes that holy, holy, holy, lord, another glimpse of glory. We'll sing once more and really, just like I mean have you heard it live?
Speaker 1:no, I've never seen her.
Speaker 3:I would do anything like that song, the way you're talking about it. It may I mean have you heard it?
Speaker 1:live? No, I've never seen her Um. I would do anything like that song.
Speaker 3:Oh, the way you're talking about it, it made me think that you had seen it, I I.
Speaker 1:I desperately need to, desperately Um, but there's just like almost in her, in her progression of it all. There's just so much like anticipation in it and I think it's so reverently depicts the anticipation we feel to seek to, to see Jesus you know, say that again. Uh, I think it, I think it, um it. It displays the anticipation that we feel to see, to see Jesus.
Speaker 2:So you're saying that this song pulls out the anticipation that just our natural bodies have to see Jesus?
Speaker 1:That is personally how that song makes me feel.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:There's just such a like it starts just so low and so mellow and then all of a sudden it's just like I'm running full force through it, you know. And then she closes with uh, uh, worthy is the lamb, you are holy. All of that, you know. Yeah, uh, your typical on you stay, creed that I love that one so good that is a good one.
Speaker 1:It is always, it always hits um. But I mean it is just like and she like it's pulled a lot from Revelation and in Revelation 19, 16, it kind of talks about like he is worth our full devotion. You know, not just like we can't, just we can't just halfway devote our lives to Jesus. You know, I like in kids church and youth group you get this picture of you can't walk down a road and be on both sides of the road. You know, but you can't True.
Speaker 2:I guess, You're going to get squashed.
Speaker 1:I get what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I get what you're saying oh, I see, so I see Is that saying you have to commit one way or the other?
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:That's right yeah, you cannot, you karate you. You have to be full in for jesus. That's all that comes to my mind karate wax on wax off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, rock, yeah, walk on the left side yeah fine walk on the right side fine walk in the middle, sweep the leg.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, but I, I just, I don't know what she put in that song to make me just overwhelmingly feel that way, but like that song, instant tears, always like, but like genuine worshipful, like there's just, there's so many layers to it. It is so magnificently done.
Speaker 2:Can you have a song like that? I'm going to have it Drives you to an emotional state, not that you mean in general, like in general, yeah, tons In the worship context.
Speaker 3:yeah, probably the song Defender.
Speaker 2:Ooh, great one. Yeah, Defender, you remember that one Grace.
Speaker 1:Ooh, that is a great one Defender. You remember that one Grace.
Speaker 3:Oh, that is a great one. It makes me think of okay, we're all helpless without Jesus and without God and his power, and it makes me imagine Jesus patting me on the shoulder and going I've got it, don't worry, whatever it is. He rolls his eyes at it Like I've got it.
Speaker 2:That song is great. How would you define that? Like the feeling of that song, like it's more of a mellow, kind of a lower tempo.
Speaker 3:It's not about the drums, it's a ballad.
Speaker 1:It's not about it's a ballad. Yeah, I would say it's a ballad. It's just a love song. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's not about what's funny is. It's not about the drums or the band in general. The lyrics are the lyrics hit hard on their own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And you could just read it and it would be like, oh, that's powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right and give somebody with an even halfway competent voice that song and it sounds really good. And it sounds good in different feels. I've heard it straight ahead, I've heard it like singer-songwriting, I've heard it epically, you know drums, bass, guitar, multiple vocals, strings, all that stuff, and it sounds good, no matter what. That's the mark of a good song If you can strip it all the way and it sounds good, or you can build it up and it sounds good.
Speaker 2:Multiple ways of doing it. Mine is the song that gets me every time is Nobody Greater.
Speaker 1:I almost put that one on the list, Curtis.
Speaker 2:Which I almost did.
Speaker 1:Honestly, it list Curtis, which I almost did.
Speaker 2:Honestly, is a little to me at least a little surprising that, uh, it drives me to like an emotional, makes me want to cry kind of a state because nobody greater is actually more like upbeat and like it is.
Speaker 1:It's a very gospel driven song.
Speaker 2:We're like uh, uh, we're getting after it.
Speaker 3:Right, kind of a thing yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it's, it's almost like it produces a fire in me and I just want to like stoke that fire and we're just like we're singing to Jesus right now. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because he's nobody greater. Well, but I mean.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, like, and sometimes I'll be in the car and I'll be listening to it and yeah, oh, it's got that sick bass line that. I always airbass when that line comes, even if I'm in the car by myself. I'm driving with my knee, but I'm just like it's so good. I tear up almost every time I listen to that song because it just like it pumps me up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's no air instruments in Defender.
Speaker 2:No instruments can be aired.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's no headbanging in that one it's like when you get your hairbrush and you sing into your hairbrush.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would do that In Glorious Day, the guitar line in Glorious Day is excellent. That's what gets me in that one. That's the glue for that one.
Speaker 1:That song like I said, I feel like it's sometimes overplayed. That song I I, that song I, like I said, I feel like it's sometimes overplayed, but it is just such a classic you know like it is just like it. You know we may have sung it three times last week, but we're going to sing it again this week and it's still going to hit. It's still going to sound good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the breakdown in the middle of the song gives you that nice simmer, and then it rolls back up. Yeah, and I love playing that yeah. Because the full backstory for me with that song is it was playing when our twins were born.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's a lot of fun for me to play that song.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Having all that in the background.
Speaker 2:Glorious day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was on repeat in the delivery room.
Speaker 2:We're wrapping up here. Share that story, because I love it. It's so funny.
Speaker 3:So thanks to my wife for knowing exactly what I needed on delivery day on the birthday of the twins, and she's like do you know? What would be nice is if you did like a playlist. They said we could have a playlist in the delivery room and I said, perfect, I know exactly what I'm going to do. I have a thousand ideas and I made this finely curated playlist that I still have on my phone because it's never going away. And I accidentally hit loop on glorious day and they'd play glorious day over and over and over. Because I was right.
Speaker 3:Next to faith, because um because the twins were born C-section and I was like I feel like I've heard Glorious.
Speaker 2:Day a few times.
Speaker 3:Never mind, I'm focused on Faith. There's Rondon, there's Simon, but I've heard Glorious Day a few times. So whatever, whatever, it's fine. It's fine, I'm sure it's fine.
Speaker 2:Isn't it awesome. Like the pitfall of that story is silly, right, you accidentally hit the button and you listen to Glorious Day on repeat for like an hour yeah but it made everything like it made the room a little bouncy. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it gave some life to the room, because that's a very lively song, even in the simmery part in the middle, and we cannot disassociate it from our twins being born and we never will. Thankfully, because it gives anytime, you can give context to a song like that or a musical moment like that.
Speaker 2:It, just it gives it yeah it gives it that much more weight and you can play it really well music is kind of like the, the sensory of of smell, in that it provokes memories or invokes. What is it Provoke or invoke? Invokes, invokes memories. Really well, yeah, I mean, that's super, super cool. Grace, I'm so thankful for all the input you brought today and your perspective on how things happen on a Sunday morning Before we leave. Is there anything you want to tell the people, like where are we going? Like what's your hope on Sunday morning?
Speaker 1:that would happen. My hope is that, no matter how someone may worship, that they can always just connect with Jesus in those times. You know that we as a church body can always do a good job of just worshiping him, honoring him, you know, sitting at his hands and feet.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well, that's it. I really enjoyed this today. Thanks again for coming on, Grace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 2:Man we nerded out for almost an hour today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not nearly enough time, no.
Speaker 2:Now I'm starting to understand why Joe Rogan can go for three hours straight yeah. You know we're getting more comfortable behind the mic.
Speaker 1:Next week we're going on a 24 hour podcasting.
Speaker 2:Oh good, actually, nevermind, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 3:No, I'm talking like we can do an hour and a half. Maybe an hour and a half yes.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you all for tuning in today. It is great to be back. We are celebrating lots of things at the church and hopefully you'll come and join us Sunday mornings at 1030. We would love to see you there and to worship with you. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. Merry Christmas, you.