The Extra
The Extra is a podcast hosted by Crosspoint Christian Church in Conyers, Georgia. Senior Minister, Curtis Zehner, and his friend, Ken Pierce, talk through each week's sermon unpacking the extra material that didn't make the cut for the weekend message. Curtis' and Ken's conversational and relaxed style lend itself to listeners of all ages and spiritual maturities.
The Extra
Exodus pt. 1 | Patterns
In this episode, we unravel the fascinating patterns hidden within the Book of Exodus, offering insights into the repeated motifs found throughout scripture. Discover how figures like Moses and Jonah embody the archetype of the reluctant participant, initially hesitant but ultimately guided to greatness by divine intervention. We draw compelling comparisons to Joseph's journey from arrogance to leadership, exploring how God crafts leaders from their imperfections and hesitations.
Check out more at www.CrosspointConyers.com
Today on the podcast, ken Pierce and I talk about patterns as viewed in the book of Exodus. Welcome to the extra. I love a good pattern, ken, me too. There's something about just a good pattern that catches your eye and it's like mesmerizing.
Speaker 2:People like patterns, yeah, in general.
Speaker 1:My kids do patterns all the time, in fact, really cute. My kids call them patterens for a long time. Be like look Dad, there's a patteren.
Speaker 2:Vivian says popcorners when she's talking about popcorn.
Speaker 1:Those aren't actual. I always want to add yeah, you ever had those chips, those popcorner chips.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I didn't know they were a thing. Dude, oh, that's a real thing. Popcorners they're so good. Okay, I could slam a bag of popcorners. They're like rice cakes Okay. But they're not rice cakes, they're corn.
Speaker 2:I got you Whatever. Okay, I think we bought some of them.
Speaker 1:They're shaped like Doritos.
Speaker 2:I think we bought some of those the other time.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is brought to you by.
Speaker 2:Popcorners. Yeah, so patterns in Exodus. You mentioned patterns several times in the sermon, great sermon, and I was wondering are there any other places in the Bible that you find a pattern and then we'll come back to Exodus? Yeah, just real quick, and then we'll come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean good grief. There are patterns all over the place. I think there's one thing that's sticking out to me right now, and I've talked about it from stage recently, is this pattern, or maybe I should say motif of the shepherd all, throughout scripture.
Speaker 1:It starts at the very beginning. It's just like Cain and Abel, and there's the difference between the shepherd and the farmer. And then we get to Joseph, who is the next person. Well, I mean, there's Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, but Joseph becomes like this image of the future Messiah. And Joseph was a shepherd. And we're getting to Moses. And Moses, before he encountered God and received his commissioning. He was a shepherd, a Midian, and shepherds just become this pattern of people who learned how to trust God with everything, like they've learned how to rely on God's provisions for everything.
Speaker 2:Okay, that goes along with what I was going to. The motif that I was going to mention is the reluctant participant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And people going I don't think I'm worthy of this or can do it. Well, here you go, yeah that's huge.
Speaker 1:That's Exodus, chapter 3. And I'm actually going to talk about that in next week's sermon. The reluctant participant.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And Moses tries to convince God three separate times. Well, really four separate times, but in chapter three three separate times. You know he says what if people don't believe me if I show up? Actually, it starts with who am I that you would choose me, god's like well like I'm with you, like enough, said next question Don't worry. And so he said, well, if I go, then who do I tell them? Sent me right I am, I am, yeah.
Speaker 1:He says, well, what if I get there and they don't believe me when I say it, pick up, pick up your staff and throw it on the ground. Yeah, right, like, yeah, the reluctant participant. And uh, it's just interesting about Moses that I wonder if that's a quality that God is like really searching for a person who's reluctant or is that humility?
Speaker 2:Okay, I think we might be on to something, because if you're reluctant and God already knows the outcome and if you're saying, okay, he's reluctant, that means I can turn him into the prophet or the participant I want him to be. I can mold him into X, and because people love people that are giving lessons, love a blank slate. No bad habits. We've talked about that before. We have, yeah, no bad habits. You're going to be one of the hungriest learners of this concept. That can be because everything is going to be brand new.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So the reluctant participant and being a shepherd, yeah, seemed to go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting, joseph was not so reluctant. A participant, okay, he was a dreamer, like literally he had dreams that he would become, you know, the leader of the family and beyond that that he would become like royalty to his family. And so Joseph, I think, had the pitfalls early in his life that although he was a shepherd he kind of had some arrogance about him.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was going to say what was his tragic flaw then. Because he had to have one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, arrogance and insensitivity, I would say, were Joseph's main things as a young person, as a boy in his father's house. God beat that out of him, though, through being sold into slavery, tossed into the king's dungeon and lived there for almost two or three years, I think is how the narrative says it. Yeah, and then finally being brought up and made second in command of all of Egypt. Okay, that's quite a transformation story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a real rags to riches story Riches to rags to riches.
Speaker 1:Riches to rags to riches.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Classic, god used the pit to turn him into who he needed him to be.
Speaker 2:Well, it's similar to Jonah being swallowed, being taken down and coming back up.
Speaker 1:He was reluctant for a different reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was reluctant because he didn't want to see his enemies come to know God and partly because Jonah knew, as a prophet of the Lord, that if the enemies of God started worshiping Yahweh, then trouble was about to happen to Israel, I mean that's you know there, man, I kind of wish I had looked it up before I came in here.
Speaker 1:So I'm not going to go any further on that. But it wasn't just that he didn't want his enemies to worship God, it was that God told them if your enemies start repenting before you, oh sons of Israel, you better watch out, Okay, Okay. So maybe we should probably look that up for next time. Go look it up yourself, people. Should probably look that up for next time. Go look it up yourself, people. It's fascinating that he was reluctant, Jonah was, but it was for much different reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the pattern in Exodus is one of just tribulation, salvation, tribulation, salvation. Is that what you laid out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a very common pattern throughout the Old Testament scriptures. I think the actual words I used on Sunday were deliverance and commission. That's it. So there was a moment of perceived death.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:God delivered people from that death so that they could live their commission of life, and it's different in each circumstance. The family of Jacob was starving to death. The famine was happening, there was no food except for in Egypt, and God delivered the family from death of starvation by raising up Joseph, who was the life giver of the grain. He was the one who had stored up grain for seven years in Egypt so that during the seven years of famine the world could come to the distribution center and live. So Joseph becomes the life giver. God's doing this deliverance through a person right. So the family's delivered so that they can live their commission of life, continue the promise of Abraham, be fruitful and multiply, have many, many descendants. And they did. They became very strong and powerful. And then the next scene of death comes in, when Pharaoh just starts killing everybody, like he puts forced labor over them.
Speaker 2:All the kids, exactly All the baby boys. Yeah, is that similar to? We listened to Matt Chandler last week in a small group where he says conviction leads to a better life. Is that similar?
Speaker 1:Remind me of the context of that.
Speaker 2:So we're talking about the Beatitudes and he says conviction is a pathway to a better life. If you're convicted by something, you learn and it's a pathway to a better life. Yeah, is it similar? Why do learn? And it's a pathway to a better life. Yeah, is it similar.
Speaker 1:Why do you think it's similar?
Speaker 2:Well, it's similar because if you go through something and you learn from it, obviously you're going to be better than you were.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it seems like these. I don't think it's trivializing it, but the Israelites are just constantly learning who they are in God's eyes.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely.
Speaker 2:So if I mean I would love to know who I am in God's eyes, that'd be great. So why not do it on a on a people scale, not a personal scale, and then put them through these things, but then, through these convictions, tribulations and all these hardships, come out on the other side. Then do it again, then do it again. It's sort of like a blacksmith folding metal, curing it. Folding it, curing it, hardening it, yeah, something like that. Absolutely, and the Jewish people are extremely strong in their religious beliefs. Now.
Speaker 1:They've always been called a stiff-necked people.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what it says. God says that about them. Okay, I've never heard that In the Israel story. Maybe that might be a misrepresentation of that quote just now. But that particular pattern of conviction leading to being forged into something new, that definitely shows up throughout the stories of judges, joshua judges the King narratives, so 1 and 2 Samuel 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, which is a retelling from a different perspective. But God is certainly doing a pattern through there In Judges. We call it a cycle.
Speaker 1:It's a cycle of the Israelites. They sin against God. In other words, they allow for idol worship to run prominent within their camps, and so God punishes them by delivering them into the hands of the enemies who created those idols to begin with the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Jebusites, the Perizzites, all these ites that we read about the parasites, all these ites that we read about.
Speaker 1:Then, after they are defeated by these enemies, they cry out to God and they repent because something terrible has happened to them. God rescues them by delivering them through, usually the hand of a judge, like who's a judge? The really strong dude, samson Samson. Samson was a judge. That's the only one I know Well. I wish I could remember off the top of my head.
Speaker 2:I'm telling on myself. That's the only one.
Speaker 1:I know Deborah is one, anyway, gideon is one. So God raises up a leader in Israel to lead an army or to do something militaristic in order to free the people, because they've repented and now they're back at the beginning. Now they're free, and then they digress and they worship idols again, and so they slip back into another. And it's this cycle all the way through. That's why the judges are necessary.
Speaker 1:So every new judge is the end of a cycle in the book of Judges and it's this forging, but also it's like their own fault. You know what I mean. Like you could have avoided so much of this if you'd have just obeyed the plan to begin with.
Speaker 1:So there is a little bit of a difference in like the what you're describing conviction leading to a better or a deeper life with God, versus what we see in Exodus, which is really I mean, seemingly it's just a retelling of the historical events. It's not a perfect history lesson. It's not a perfect historical account. It's very specific for the people who are wandering through the wilderness on the way to Canaan. So the people who are hearing about their history are the people who are going to make those mistakes in the book of Judges in the future. But they're also they're not the people who were living as slaves in Egypt. They were the ones who were born in the wilderness. They're in the in-between, and so Moses is teaching these people.
Speaker 1:This is where you came from, and so Moses is teaching these people. This is where you came from. God delivered and gave a commission. God delivered Moses and gave a commission, and then God used Moses to come back and deliver you from death so that you could live this new commission. And now here we are, out in the wilderness and Exodus 19, where God gives them their commission. You're going to be my people, out of all the people on earth. You're going to be a nation of a royal priesthood, a holy nation is what he says. He's essentially marrying himself to them. Okay, it's the great wedding between God and the Israelites.
Speaker 2:Has it ever been called that? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't know if it's as colloquial as I just said it but yeah, I got you. And, ironically, they rejected God at the altar, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's almost like if the pattern's going to hold, you're going to reject me and then come back to me. It's similar when you were talking about this cycle. It's similar to a toddler, like we have a little step stool and Simon will get up on it and he'll get stuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He'll hold out his hand. Yeah, he does that a lot throughout the day and I'm like you know how this ends you stray, you get on the stool, you don't know what to do and you have to come back to me. So it's like it's literally the same thing, like I'm going to help you again, again, until you learn, and that's sort of the. That's that God's grace that we're all after. You're just going to help me over and over.
Speaker 1:And look at how patient God is. Patience, yeah. Describe what it feels like to be a dad in that moment, Like moment after moment, when Simon's doing this. Do you get frustrated, or how does patience work in that for you?
Speaker 2:At the very beginning, when he first starts making the sound, you wait to see if he's learned anything. And then, when he first starts making his little distress noise and holding out his hand, you're like, okay, maybe he'll find out. Maybe when he first starts making his little distress noise and holding out his hand, you're like, okay, maybe he'll find out, maybe he'll look around and help himself. Okay, that's not happening. I have to go over there and do it for him and show grace, because he doesn't know what he's doing. Right, he doesn't know that. He's stuck. A lot of times in life you don't know where you are until you run a test and then it doesn't work, right.
Speaker 2:Yep, luckily, god's there for answers, help, grace, all these things that we need as people and it feels like, okay, you need me and I am more than happy to help you in this situation. It is my job, right? That's why I'm here. I created you so that you could learn about the world. Yeah, that is one reason I created you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know things like that and you can get pretty lofty pretty quickly, but when Simon needs me and I can help him, that makes me feel good, definitely.
Speaker 1:So this is what God says in Exodus 34. So we're still in the Exodus narrative. Okay, up to this point. Okay, here's the super brief overview. It's almost like the same of what you're saying that you have with your son. It's these moments of testing that God, like the people, keep failing and they keep asking God and they keep. God keeps pursuing them.
Speaker 2:So they're a mistake Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, god keeps pursuing them. We made a mistake, sorry. Yeah, so they're at Mount Sinai and they didn't do the covenant the way that God wanted to originally, and so God is patient and allowed them to like he's going to do it in a different way, and then, as soon as they do it, he comes down, and Moses comes down off the mountain and they're worshiping an idol. Yeah, so it's like they're cheating on him already even though they just agreed to get married to him.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and and it's similar to say don't. I don't mean to cut you off, but it's similar also, as I chose me and faith chose to have Simon.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I chose to create, to be party in your creation and help you whenever you need it. Yeah, I chose to bring you about. I'm going to go ahead and look over some things, overlook some things and help you here.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 2:You're my chosen people, so we're in this covenant together.
Speaker 1:And so God says in Exodus 34, 6, he describes his own character. He says the Lord, the Lord, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, filled with gracious, love and truth. That's not all of it and if we still have time I'll finish that sentence. But look at there, it says slow to anger sentence. But look at there, it says slow to anger Literally the words used in the original text. If I remember correctly, the description is that God has a long nose, which I know it kind of sounds weird. But like when you get mad, your nose gets hot, like your face gets warm.
Speaker 1:And so it's this description of like-.
Speaker 2:It'll take a while to get warm.
Speaker 1:It's going to take a while for that thing to heat up. So I don't think it's literal that God has like a huge schnoz, but it's like. I think what he's describing is like you're going to do some things that should make me boil over with hot anger.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I'm slow to anger. It sounds Shakespearean anger, yeah, but I'm slow to anger. It sounds shakespearean. It does, doesn't it, man? The authors of the scripture are just like it's, divine inspiration. Yes, but, man, the way that god put it all together with these people like this is just genius writing. But it's a look at how. Look at how wonderful it is to be known by god yeah that and to be taught by him. You're going to mess up a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but God is slow to anger. Now, what we don't have time for today is the second half of that description of himself, that he doesn't put up with wickedness forever, okay, but the good news is is that the pattern is leading us to Jesus, okay, and I think if we can just remain focused on that in this era, man, I think it'll help us overcome these sin patterns that we find ourselves in, these lifestyles of sin, because we're not alone in this human predicament. All right, man, good patterns, yeah, all right, dude. Hey, thanks for listening today. If you enjoyed today's podcast, if it meant something to you at all, I would encourage you to share this podcast, not because Ken and I are looking to be super famous, but because maybe it'd be helpful for somebody else in the church who was here on Sunday to extend the conversation. I don't know. I hope you enjoyed it. Thanks for joining us today, ken. Any last words?
Speaker 2:No, I'm good man, a few words.
Speaker 1:All right, we'll see you next time.