The Extra
The Extra is a podcast hosted by Crosspoint Christian Church in Conyers, Georgia. Senior Minister, Curtis Zehner, and his friend, Ken Pierce, talk through each week's sermon unpacking the extra material that didn't make the cut for the weekend message. Curtis' and Ken's conversational and relaxed style lend itself to listeners of all ages and spiritual maturities.
The Extra
Prayer, pt. 1
Have you ever wondered if there's more to prayer than just talking at God? In this thought-provoking conversation, Curtis sits down with his friend G to unpack the ancient Hebrew concept of "Shema" – a single word that revolutionizes our understanding of what it means to truly listen to God.
Check out more at www.CrosspointConyers.com
Welcome. Welcome back to the Extra Podcast. Hey, it's Curtis here and I'm not here with Ken today. Ken is absent for this one, but I'm with my friend G.
Speaker 1:What up G? What's up man?
Speaker 2:You know, part of the podcast is actually using the microphone.
Speaker 1:My bad Can you hear me now Check, check.
Speaker 2:Man Gene, thanks so much for coming to our church. It was awesome to have you preach on Sunday and to start our series on prayer. Excellent job, by the way, Thank you. Does it feel weird when people are like, hey, good job preaching?
Speaker 1:It feels good. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if they heard what I said.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because people are just nice, yeah, and they're just going to be like hey, good job Right. Okay, but did I say it the right way?
Speaker 2:Or are they just being really nice? Yeah, especially when you're a guest speaker.
Speaker 1:Of course, so if you don't invite me back, I know it wasn't good. Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2:Is there anybody that you just don't want to hear from? After a message?
Speaker 1:Like is there somebody that? Oh yeah, you going to put somebody on the spotlight?
Speaker 2:No, you don't have to name anybody, but, like you know, I mean it's like like I don't know, like I feel, like I feel like my wife is always gonna say great job.
Speaker 1:Yes, like that's good. It's not like I don't want to hear it from her, but it's like, is she?
Speaker 2:ever gonna tell me that I was bad on a sunday.
Speaker 1:Oh, morgan would tell me. Emily probably would too, but not like, not in a bad way, you know she'd be like oh, you did really good, but right, it was like that, but you, okay, I know what you're saying I got it.
Speaker 2:Can you handle? Can you handle the criticism?
Speaker 1:I'm getting better at it. Yeah, I think when you first start, you think you should be like Michael Jordan and be awesome. Right, but yeah, I think, as, especially when people say it with the intent for you to learn. Yeah, with the intent for you to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, like they want you to know. Hey, you did good, you can be smoother in your transition. Or hey, you need to be clear on what you're on this point. Yeah, so when they give you that kind of advice, that's great.
Speaker 2:Constructive, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But when it's you suck Okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Believe it or not, the one person I can always count on to give me the constructive criticism is my grandmother. Really, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, sometimes, we love you, grandma she calls me curtis paul.
Speaker 2:That's paul's my middle name. She calls me well. My dad's name is curtis too, so to to differentiate between us. Okay gotcha Curtis Paul, that was a wonderful message today, but that's awesome. Yeah, it's good, it's good.
Speaker 1:Curtis Paul.
Speaker 2:Well, you did a great job on Sunday and we hit some really cool topics, some great aspects of prayer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed that. You didn't just teach us like a new prayer to say right, but you taught from a position of maybe prayer isn't so much about speaking, it's about listening right. Something that all of us are not great at. Right, you know I find it interesting. You mentioned at least in your like intro video that we did on Sunday. You know you got two ears and one mouth. You should listen twice as much. That's an old saying.
Speaker 2:I feel like we had a professor in college Probably Huxford used to say that to us all the time, professor Huxford or Strother. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, strother definitely said that he was our preaching, professor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah man, you got two ears, one mouth. We should be listening and that's a deep theological concept, like it's a very intimate part of being in relationship to God, and we see that all through scripture and we're gonna talk about the Shema here in a few minutes. But when you were talking it dawned on me that a lot of times Jesus would say things like those who have ears, let them hear.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So is Jesus saying that Is the definition of that saying the same as what we're talking about with the Shema that if you listen, then you should obey. There's not a separate word for that.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, so, shema, if we're going into that, but that's the word that they would use to say listen right, so since the beginning in Genesis, moses starts talking to them and says hear O Israel. And even in the prayers of Psalms and Lord, hear me right, it's Shema, listen, listen. And so when you have a relationship, you want to be heard right. In marriage. You want to be heard. Our kids, they want to be heard. They're like you're not listening.
Speaker 2:And it's convicting when you're like oh yeah, I wasn't listening.
Speaker 1:You're like I'm listening. No, you're not. So we do the same thing with our kids. Like you're not listening?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And listening is very. It's a beautiful gift that I don't think we use enough. Yeah, especially nowadays, you know, people want to give our opinion through social media. We want to say what we want to say and be heard.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Rather than listening to people and hearing them and showing them compassion, right, jesus would hear the sinners and the tax collectors. He would listen to them, but then he'd speak truth and grace to them. Right, but he first listened. I feel like I don't know. That's not theology, but just, you know, just an observation of his interactions with people through the gospel.
Speaker 2:Let's go back to Deuteronomy 6. Let me read it this is the King.
Speaker 1:James version okay.
Speaker 2:The King James. It's just all I have in front of me okay. Here, therefore, this is Deuteronomy 6.3. Here therefore, O Israel, and observe it and do it Observe. I don't know, I put an extra B in that word that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:Here I put an extra B in that word. That doesn't make sense. Hear O Israel, and observe it and do it, that it may be well with thee and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord, god of thy fathers, has promised thee in the land that floweth with milk and honey. So here, therefore, that's the Shema. That's a Hebrew word. It has also become a title of this prayer that you talked about on Sunday. So here the definition of Shema according to Strong's. What is it? I don't know what number this is. So here it is the definition to hear, to listen, to obey. It's really interesting that those things like to listen and to obey are the same thing yeah that's the same definition for the same word, right?
Speaker 2:so is it possible to listen and not obey when it comes to what the shema is telling us to do, is it? Possible to listen and not obey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you can hear somebody and not do it right, yeah. My mind goes to the story of the two sons. Right, the first son said yes, he heard them, he listened to them. Yeah, I'll do it, yeah, I got it. The second one nah, I don't got it. But then later he said yes and heard and obeyed. Right, so, yeah, I think so, yeah, what do you?
Speaker 2:think Well, you were making the comparison earlier of, like our kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and we say those things like you're not listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When really they probably hear what I said. Yeah, like you know, go go pick up those toys off the floor. Yeah, you know, good grief, I got three girls in the house and there's like Barbies and toys and castles everywhere. And it's like, well, you just pick up the stuff off the floor and have to say like six times before they finally do it, and it's like, why, Like listen?
Speaker 1:listen to me, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think probably they heard me by the first or second time, but they didn't obey yet. And so I do the same thing. I equate listening with obedience and obedience with listening, and that's what God's teaching us that obedience is listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I love the fact that that you're using your kids right, like you know. They heard you, yeah, but why aren't they obeying you? And I don't know why. I'm going on this tangent, but, like you, going back to the two sons, they heard the father, one obeyed, one didn't. So maybe you're onto something like you can't listen and not obey.
Speaker 2:So it would be the son that didn't obey. He's choosing not to listen.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:So just simply hearing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we're sitting in front of these microphones, we have these headphones on. It feels super professional, like Joe Rogan is in the room with us right now. Right, we're hearing the noise come out of the headphones, right, right, right, we're hearing the noise come out of the headphones, right. But maybe it's not just as simple as hearing the audio or like an audio response inside the ear. Maybe it's the oldest or the son that you're talking about in this parable? Yes, he heard it, but choosing not to obey means he didn't actually hear it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, biblically speaking, we're not just talking about noise entering into the ear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because Jesus would say those who have ears let them hear. Yeah, right, and so you would have to—listening is a response, yep, so it can't just be receiving receptive. Yeah, it's also response, so it's both. And Okay, at least that's what you know, shema. You know it means listen and obey, and so it's one word for the Hebrew text. So there's something there, right, you can't separate the two. Somehow we have separated the two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, why do you think we've done that?
Speaker 1:I think the enemy's just wise right Not wise, but deceiving right. The enemy's deceiving us to say, hey, you can listen and you heard it, you don't have to necessarily obey, right? Yeah, you heard it. I don't know, I don't know, what do you?
Speaker 2:make of church, modern day church? What do you make of our churches that we sit in? And I certainly I want to be careful. I'm not like bro, the pews are full of people who listen but do not hear, or whatever you know. But you know sometimes like do we come to church and sit down in the chairs and go home and nothing changes, like we heard a message, right.
Speaker 1:But that's the beautiful thing about gathering too, right, like we have to be told constantly the same thing. My son, he's six. I tell him to do something a lot. Clean your room, right, you have your girls. Clean your room, do this, don't do that, don't hit your sister, right. And. I tell him over and, over, and, over and over again. And so, morgan, my wife, she tells me like hey, you got to be more patient. Or hey, close all the cabinet doors. Apparently, I leave them all open.
Speaker 2:I don't think so, so you're trying to discipline your son and your wife's like hey, but buddy, you messed up too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and so I'm 35, about to be 36, and I'm still learning, right, and I feel like God uses my son most of all to teach me, like, how patient and kind he is, you know, like I think he uses our kids to show us how loving of a father he is. Yeah, and so when it comes to church, yes, we have made it to be where you come and receive and then you go. But, hey, come again so that you can continue to be transformed. Right, we come to Jesus all the time, or we should go to Jesus all the time and say God, how do I become more like you? How do I show forgiveness, how do I show compassion? And we have to continue to learn. We don't get it on the first try. So, yes, we are full of people that don't obey, but when you come back and you continue to allow God and His Holy Spirit to move and transform you and sanctify you, yeah, absolutely, you know, I think that, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a very long process.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Growing up is a very long process. Yes, it doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking of the Israelites in the Old Testament. Like the entire generation of Egypt Israelites, the Israelites who were raised in slavery, they had to essentially die off.
Speaker 1:A whole generation had to be gone because they couldn't listen and obey.
Speaker 2:They failed over and over again in the wilderness, first in Mount Sinai, and then God made them wander the wilderness for those 40 years. And they got to see miracles, man. They got to see them.
Speaker 2:The water come out of the rock and the cloud lead them by day and the fire by night and the presence of God actually come down into the tabernacle and they saw these things At church. We've talked about these things this year. We're doing a series. It's kind of a long-term goal to see Jesus from A to Z and we talked about it through Exodus and Leviticus so far, like the amazing things that they saw the Spirit of God with them, present with them, but they still had this problem of listening but not obeying. They had this issue.
Speaker 1:We're not listening at all. Baby Not listening, right?
Speaker 2:exactly Exactly, man did we dig ourselves a hole on that one, right? Exactly Exactly, man did we dig ourselves a hole on that one, yeah, but it wasn't until the next generation, when Joshua became the leader, and then that generation could enter into the promised land. Right, because they grew up in the wilderness, learning to listen and obey to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, that's where the Shema comes in, Exactly. So Moses is giving this speech right and he gives them the Ten Commandments again. And then he says the Shema because they're about to enter the promised land, dude. And yeah, listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Listen to who God is, what he's done, what he will do, what he will continue to do.
Speaker 2:That's why I love that we do come together every week.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know what? There might be some people who come and sit in the pews or the chairs or whatever, and who hear a good sermon, but nothing changes.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But if we keep coming back each and every week, it's over time and relationship with God. There might be a Sunday where somebody comes in and it just clicks man. It just clicks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I got to witness something recently that is almost like the exact thing we're talking about. A lady in our church has been following Jesus for a long time and one Sunday she just came out and was like you know what? I need to be baptized. Oh wow. And she came up out of the water after we baptized her and said it's been 50 years in the making. Like she'd been following Jesus for so long right Right. And it took, so this is certainly not like a condemnation. I'm happy that this happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100% Like it's amazing. Praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:That you know what, For those 50 years of following Jesus but not yet understanding the fullness of baptism and like the promises of God. But now she has it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like those are the moments of like crossing the Jordan River. Yeah, and then you build up those stones like they do, to recognize this is the moment that I listened and obeyed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, we followed God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we're going to remember that for generations to come Absolutely and remember those milestone moments. So listen and obey, that's a really that's life, yes, I mean that's life with God. Like man, that's life with God. It's really really difficult, but God has grace and his mercy covers us for those things and he keeps speaking to us.
Speaker 1:Right, and the cool thing is like if we listen to him, we know that he listens to us. Yeah, you know, I think, understanding that when you get to know somebody and you're listening to them, you know my wife right, like once I get to know her, like I know, like what she likes to surprise her and all these cool things. It's so cool because God knows us, he listens to us. And once you begin to know, once you get to see how God listens to you, why would you not listen to him?
Speaker 2:Right, right yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's just a beautiful thing about God, where he allows us to be kids for 36 years or however long, but also reveals himself to us. He reveals the kingdom of heaven to us in Christ. In Christ, and Jesus was so patient but also knew his purpose to be reveal the love of God to us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. God listens to us. I just want to make a comparison to myself one more time because I'm so terrible at this, I know, like I trust in scripture, that God listens to us.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But maybe some of like my hesitancy to bring everything in prayer to God is because my failure is to listen to people, Like I'm putting the lens of how I listen to people and projecting that on God.
Speaker 2:I'm bad at that sometimes, especially on like Sundays you know, like everybody comes out and they want to like shake hands and say things. And some people actually want to have a conversation with you and it's like, man, I'm standing in front of you, but I'm not going to remember anything that you just said you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, dude.
Speaker 2:But man God is so much better than that, Like he does he he? Uh, the promise is that he listens and the promise that you know, even when I don't know how to express it with words, like what is it God? Like the Spirit is speaking on behalf of us. So God is also listening to the Spirit who is speaking on my behalf?
Speaker 1:interceding for me? Yeah, perfect.
Speaker 2:That's really good, man. Okay, so you're a church planter.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I have a sense that you're in a season of listening, hence the sermon. Give us a little bit of insight, before we close this out, on what is it like to be a church planter and how are your like? What's your prayer life like right now? Yeah, are you learning to listen and rely on god?
Speaker 1:yeah, man. Well, church planting is amazing, um, and difficult, right, I know I made the joke with you when we were talking earlier of like don't do it, please do it. Church planting is very important. It is the body and the kingdom of God expanding Right, and so it's awesome. It's definitely hard. I'll share it like this so Morgan and I got married in 2014, and we left Georgia to Arizona for the residency Kind of like your residency in Kentucky, right, yeah, and we just got married. We're moving to Arizona. We don't have jobs I'm getting my master's with no money, right, like we're just moving. We're like we're walking in faith. Yeah, fast forward 11 years and God's calling us to go somewhere else, like to start something. Things change when you have kids. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Things change when you have kids, yeah definitely there's a weight, a responsibility that you just kind of start carrying. And you know, when it was morgan and I just go in arizona. We're like you know, we'll eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. We're good like we'll camp outside, we'll eat, we'll sleep in a truck, whatever right but when it's your kid you're like well, they gotta have the best, they got to have a bed, they got to have AC and heat and all that stuff and at the bare minimum they still will eat the peanut butter and jelly.
Speaker 2:But now you have to make it for them. You have to prepare it ahead of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can rationalize. I'm only going to eat this one piece of peanut butter right here, this loaf of bread will last us three weeks.
Speaker 2:You know like just crazy stuff.
Speaker 1:And so I feel like God has just shown in my prayer life to listen to him and to trust him. Yeah, and so you know I ask for a lot of things. You know I've been praying for, you know, families to join. I've been praying for families to join. I've been praying for our finances. I've been praying for the city. I've been doing prayer walks on Tuesdays. I'm learning this stuff. I never prayer walked before, but God is stretching me and growing me. And that's the beautiful thing about God is like he's not upset about that. Where I feel conviction, where I'm like, well, haven't I been doing this forever? He's like I'm just showing you because now you can handle it, or maybe now you're mature enough, I don't know. But God is just kind enough to say, hey, look, start doing this. And so, with prayer and listening is to really sit in silence, which is so hard man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and especially when you know you try to listen to music and like worship music, you know you jam out, you know it's awesome.
Speaker 1:But then just to be quiet and allow God to just remind you of who he is and how much he loves you. Man, it's a game changer, and so, for those of you trying to learn how to pray or like, it takes a time. You know like I think we forget where we started, instead of seeing like, oh man, gee, in college though I was, you know, very much in love with the Lord, I didn't pray much. You know like I didn't devote myself to this, but God is so kind and patient with me and shows me mercy and grace, Like, okay, now you get to teach people how to do this and that's a gift. And so, yeah, man, the church is doing great. We're excited. We're going to be starting October 5th, so pray for that. And, however God leads you, we are excited for the journey ahead, and he's been growing our faith dude, through this prayer. Honestly, it's been a fun journey for sure.
Speaker 2:That's really cool. Yeah, you've been doing prayer walks. You said, yeah, what is that? Like you invite people to come pray with you, or like you're just walking and praying to yourself?
Speaker 1:yeah, uh well, don't pray to myself well, by yourself alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no no, uh, yeah, no, so right now it's just myself. Uh, I've, morgan has gone, now it's just myself. Morgan has gone with me once, okay, and Cruz has gone with me once Cool, which was so cool, man, when you invite your family into that. I don't know about you, but sometimes I get intimidated to pray in front of Morgan because it's very vulnerable, like I'm very vulnerable with the Lord and I'm like, oh, she's going to hear this, you know, like my insecurities, like I want her to think you know her man's strong and confident, but there are times where, like I, have that insecurity. But anyway, yeah, so prayer, walking, just walk. We're renting out a brew bar or a coffee shop. They don't like to call it a coffee shop, so Gilly Brew Bar.
Speaker 1:It's a coffee shop where they call it a brew bar. Yeah, a brew bar. I don't ask questions, man, I'm just glad that they're giving us a good deal.
Speaker 2:Is it Gen Z owners?
Speaker 1:Nah Daniel, what?
Speaker 2:Maybe it's millennial owners. That sounds like a millennial thing more than a gypsy. Yeah, yeah yeah, we're not allowed to call it a coffee shop. We have to call it a brew bar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they serve more than coffee, I guess, I don't know. Oh, oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now that I think about it.
Speaker 2:That's cool, I love it, so is gonna is meeting in that space on Sundays yes, that's what we'll be meeting at the beginning that's really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, we're excited so yeah, we just walk around and pray around that building, pray all through the city and yeah, yeah awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, church plant. I mean that's super exciting because it's new, it's fresh, like you've got a lot of things on your plate, but also it's scary because tomorrow is unknown and you're just kind of following the wind of the Lord as the spirit moves.
Speaker 1:What's that passage? A light, a lamp into my feet A light into my path. Yeah, you could just see one step at a time. So that's been the journey so far one step at a time. So that's been the journey so far One step at a time, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll definitely be praying for you. Hopefully, those of you listening when you're spending some time with the Lord today pray for G and everything that's going on with Kingdom City Church in Stone Mountain. Let's go. That's great, g. Thanks so much for being here and for doing the podcast.
Speaker 1:I know it's a little unnatural to be on a podcast A little bit.
Speaker 2:But you did great, man. Thanks, man, you did great.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, we'll see if we do another podcast, if I did great.
Speaker 2:You know what I think Kingdom City Church needs a podcast.
Speaker 1:I can't do the techie stuff man.
Speaker 2:Well, dude, thanks again for being here and for being a friend of the church and a partner in the community, and hopefully we will see more from Kingdom City in the months to come. Thanks for having me guys, absolutely. Love you all Thanks for being here, Listeners, and for sticking with us all the way to the end. Hey, don't forget, you can check out more about Crosspoint online CrosspointConyerscom. Check us out. Signing off today Curtis and.
Speaker 1:G. See you next time. See you next time.