The Extra
The Extra is a podcast hosted by Crosspoint Christian Church in Conyers, Georgia. Senior Minister, Curtis Zehner, and his friend, Ken Pierce, talk through each week's sermon unpacking the extra material that didn't make the cut for the weekend message. Curtis' and Ken's conversational and relaxed style lend itself to listeners of all ages and spiritual maturities.
The Extra
Prayer pt. 2 | Hope
What does genuine hope look like when life falls apart? Mike Thompson takes us on a deeply personal journey through Romans 8, revealing that authentic hope isn't wishful thinking about visible outcomes but rather confidence in what remains unseen.
Check out more at www.CrosspointConyers.com
Welcome, Welcome back to the Extra Podcast Curtis here. Over here in front of me is my good friend, Mike Thompson. Mike, welcome to the podcast. Yo yo yo man, this is good. You preached with us on Sunday. Thank you for that, by the way, what a great message you brought to us. Our second installment in this series on Sunday. Thank you for that, by the way, what a great message you brought to us. Our second installment in this series on prayer, and we're going to dive into that. But before we do, before we do, what was? This is your first time at Crosspoint ever. Yeah, man, what do you think? What are you taking away from your time at Crosspoint this weekend?
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it man. I just love the opportunity to be back. I mean, I like to follow up G because yeah, G did such a good job last week. Yeah, but you know you got to fill in a lot of the cracks that he missed. So I love doing that, I'm kidding. I'm kidding For the people that don't get it like.
Speaker 2:Obviously anybody listening doesn't understand. Yeah, you and G were friends way before you and I and G were ever friends because we all went to the same college together. I claim that even though I was only there for two years. Yeah, I went to like 17 different colleges and took 10 years to do it. But you know, but yeah, so we have some old inside jokes going back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Gee, I mean gee's the best man in my wedding. I was the best man in his. So like there's, I mean love the guy so much, Definitely a brother in Christ for sure. But we just it's appropriate. We have to rag on each other you know we have to and I, you know, I just wouldn't feel like myself, and I know he wouldn't feel like himself as well.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that you guys did such a great job. Our church, we're thankful that you came out and shared with us, and your sermon this weekend was really about hope and prayer. And why don't we just dive in? Can we read the scripture together? Tell me what you want me to read, I'll read it and then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So if you'll just read, you know, I think a good starting spot would be in verse 18, and just go all the way until verse 28.
Speaker 2:Okay. So Romans excuse me, Romans chapter 8, starting in verse 18. He says, for I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the joy. That is chapter 8, starting in verse 18. He says, all right. Remember I'm reading from the ESV. Is this still okay, mike? You're good, you're good, all right. Where did I leave off Verse 22. Together, in the pains of childbirth until now, and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit grown inwardly, as we await eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies, for in this hope we were saved. Now, hope that is seen is not hope. Now, hope that is seen is not hope for who hopes for what he sees. But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. You want me?
Speaker 1:to keep going, please do. Okay, perfect, just a couple more verses.
Speaker 2:Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know what to pray for, as we ought. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words, and he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. So good, so good. That's a ton to unpack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not going to unpack it.
Speaker 2:No, of course, and that's why you couldn't unpack it all on Sunday morning. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, basically I wanted to come from you know the angle of this scripture has lived within our home and really been a lifeblood for my business and what I do now, and I get to develop things, create things, partner with people to breathe new life into something, and a lot of times it's something that's old, whether it's a 90-year-old gymnasium, an old bus barn or the old grammar school, and so those are the things that my thoughts have been like man, how do we make the best days forward for these things? So there's one of the scriptures that I've really clung on to is like man, I want to hope that this thing is the best thing that it can be. But I was convicted in a lot of different ways by being open-ended in the sense of, hey, it may become something I can't see right now. And there's a verse in here that says if you could see it, it's not hope.
Speaker 1:And for me I feel like a lot of people look at kind of how I operate as man. You're all over the place and like you don't have a plan and like how are you going to do all this without having a plan? Like what's the end goal? And like for me it's like, well, if I can see it, it's not hope, yeah Right, but like, every time I've been able to do something, it's been able to be so much better than anything I can see. And so this verse has constantly reminded me that if we trust that God is doing things, if we put our hope in him, he will do hope, that understanding of, if you can see it, it's not really hope right?
Speaker 2:When did that start to materialize? Was it early on or was it like in the past few years, you know, in your career?
Speaker 1:And when I yeah, we talked about it a lot and I don't know if I don't think I mentioned it during the sermon but when I was my last year as a student pastor at a large church, I had a leadership team and they were. We were going through the new applications to be on Michael's leadership team. Not that it's anything special to be on Michael's leadership team, not that it's anything special to be on Michael's leadership team, but— oh, it's special. Yeah, it's something for sure. It's a lot of what you can't see, I tell you that right now.
Speaker 1:But I had such a good group of leaders and potential leaders and one of the things I just I was reading Romans 12 one day and the verses 9 through 18 just clicked, like this is what I want, like if my leaders could just do this, if they can embody this, like I don't have to give them all this other stuff and all this training or anything like that. Just like man, just be how Paul says, to be between Romans 12, 9 through 18, and you will be okay, and not just for me as a leader, but in life. And so I put a stipulation on hey, if you don't have this memorized, I basically had my final. I had a lot of kids and pretty much most people made it, that applied for it, but there's a few that didn't make the cut, but the ones that did make it. One of the things was hey, you know, you have three weeks, you have to memorize these nine verses. Yeah, and if you don't have these verses memorized, you're not going to be on my leadership team.
Speaker 1:Wow. And so I know I'm going on a deep dive here. But what happened there? So this was at the beginning of the school year, so it was the fall of 18, school year. And what happened is? I remembered we were about four days from all my leaders coming over to my house. We were going to have a big dinner and at our dinner everyone was going to have to recite the scripture. And you know, I'd let everyone know ahead of time like hey, like you're not going to be able to be on the leadership team if you don't have this memorized.
Speaker 2:So that would be embarrassing to show up and not have it memorized.
Speaker 1:But then I got convicted, uh-oh Because.
Speaker 2:I didn't have it memorized.
Speaker 1:Oh man. So here I am in a spot thinking, oh, I don't have this memorized. And we were in Bible classes together. Yeah, our whole college was having to memorize Scripture and test and learning about different books. But I hadn't memorized Scripture in a long time and I started feeling convicted and that was literally my only angle. It's like I was just convicted that I was asking them to do something that I hadn't done myself. And so this whole week I started memorizing Romans 12, 9 through 18.
Speaker 1:And my days started to change and I was waking up. I was going through it. I was starting to memorize. I couldn't do it in one fell swoop. You know me, my mind is all over the place. I have to write it down. I literally had to write down every word multiple times just to remember it, go verse by verse. But my days started to change and I started to see the power of memorizing Scripture for me, and I'm teaching once, twice a week.
Speaker 1:I have a group of 200 or 300 kids that I'm leading and teaching and everything, and I just thought I was in the scripture all the time and I was doing like devotion books and stuff like that, but like in reality I wasn't. So then I was just like, forget this, I'm going to memorize the whole chapter. Yeah, so I memorized the whole chapter and obviously Romans 12, you know, don't be conformed, you know to the world chapter. And obviously romans 12, you know, don't be conformed. You know through the world as well. A lot of people know about it, but just how it just goes into like the individual everyday life of a christian and like you know what to lean into, what to not lean into, like my days started even getting better and better, even after the whole time, the first time, and that's when I was like I'm going to take it to another level, I'm going to memorize the whole book of Romans.
Speaker 2:The entire book of Romans.
Speaker 1:The entire book of Romans, oh, my goodness. And hope is obviously all throughout. Yeah, I was like I'm going to do it in a year. Yeah, because it took me like a month to do, you know, chapter 12, and I started tossing in a lot of different things about hope. Yeah, and I remember the day that g's son cruz, was born.
Speaker 1:Um, it was in june of 19 and I had just gotten to chapter 5. And so I was in June and I had five chapters done, because I did 12 first, right, but I had just gotten to chapter 5, and chapter 5 talks about, hey, we rejoice in the coming glories of God, but also we rejoice in our afflictions. And we rejoice in our afflictions because we know that our afflictions, you know, our afflictions produce endurance and our endurance produces proven character and our proven character produces hope and our hope won't fail. And I'd been in this mindset the whole time. And I remember it was the day that Cruz was born, because we got on a plane and went and saw him that afternoon, and I remember trying to tell it was funny, because G had a kid before I did, which he would love to tell everyone that he did it before I did it.
Speaker 2:He did it first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like he's to the point, he loves to tell everyone that he preached here before I preached here too, so you know.
Speaker 2:You're celebrating your 10th anniversary with your wife. He's celebrating the 11th anniversary with his wife.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know, you know how it is yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I remember trying to tell this guy who just had a son, all about like man, this verse, like today, and like gee, it was just like on a different planet. It was so exhausting, but like I just remember, like, because I'd always thought his hope is just like if you need hope, get hope. Yeah, right. But here's Paul saying hey, hope comes from proven character. Great, just get proven character. Well, proven character comes from proven character. Great, just get proven character. Well, proven character comes from endurance Great, well, get endurance. Well, endurance comes from affliction. And I started learning pretty quickly that there is a process to get to hope. There's a process, Okay. And that's when I feel like you know, I started thinking about okay, wait, so I know all these Bible terms. I have a Bible degree. It took me six or seven years to get it, but like I have it, we're not counting yeah yeah, but I have it.
Speaker 1:But like, why is this any different than faith? Why is this any different than trust? Why is this any different than love? Why is this any different than any of these other things? And you start looking at how Paul frames hope and what it is and what it means to the future. So, all that being said, I know this is a long story, but I started really focusing in on what is hope.
Speaker 1:What is my hope? What do I put my hope in? Because, honestly, I'd always put it in myself. I knew I had the best resume coming out of college to get on at a church, get on at a large church. I knew I could do that and I'd always said, well, God's led me all these places.
Speaker 1:But there's a reality that a lot of my hope was just in myself. But, yeah and, but like that hope that I had in myself, like it wasn't. I could say that, oh man, all these afflictions, I had to get through this and get through that, but like it wasn't. Real afflictions. We, you know, we were talking, you know before about how, like, once you experience real afflictions, like that's when you get on another level, Right and but at the end of 5, in verse 5, it says and there's hope.
Speaker 1:When I fail us, Not only will you get hope, it won't fail. And I'm like what does that mean? What does it mean that hope won't fail? I don't want to fail, I don't want it to fail me, it's like you know. And so a few more months go by, because I'm taking it chapter by chapter, and just I'd already July was my last month at the church and we had these two buildings that you know we were trying to get and create this concept for, and we couldn't wrap our minds around, like man, what could this be? And I just felt like it was spinning out of control. And I remember getting to Romans 8, in this verse about hope, and it's saying, hey, hope is what you can't see. If you hope in something, hope in what you see, that's not hope. If you say, man, I hope to have that car that Curtis has, man, one day I hope to have that that's has man, one day I hope to have that that's not, Not my car.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the future Curtis's car. Right right right.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah, it's like man, I hope to have that one day. Well, that's not hope. Yeah, that's coveting, that's me wanting, that that's me. I'm hoping in myself that one day. That's not hope. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, man, it's that hope to man be secure, like Curtis is to be able to walk through the fire, like Curtis has walked through the fire, to be able to chase that, to be able to do what Jesus has us to do, like that's the hope to be able to make the right decisions when the right time comes, to be able to endure, to get through. Like that's what hope is and what really clicked for me, and it won't click for a lot of people, but it really clicked for me because, you know me, I'm not patient. I've never been patient. I've never known how to be patient. I've always felt bad for it because I felt like I was allowed to pray for patience, because everyone was like don't pray for patience.
Speaker 2:Don't pray that. And I didn't really know why you don't pray for patience.
Speaker 1:Don't pray that. And I didn't really know like, why, like you don't pray for patience. But no one really taught me how to be patient other than just like wait, and it's like you know. But at the end of this verse it says but if you hope so, I'm using the, you're using the English Standard Version, yeah, I'm in the Christian standard version. Ooh, yours is better than mine, just a little more Christian. That's all. Just a little more Christian, I'm just kidding. But it says if we hope for what we don't see, we will eagerly wait for it with patience.
Speaker 1:And for me, not being patient, not knowing how to wait, you know, that was one thing. When I proposed to my wife, her dad was like well, when I asked for the blessing, her dad was like the blessing's yes, but I want you to wait, because I know as soon as I give it to you, like you're going to be gone, because that's how I've always been right. Yeah, and my background kind of leads to that hope one day of being able to have a family with my family background. Well, it's huge for me, but not being able to be patient is a big theme of my life.
Speaker 1:He says if you hope what you do not see, you'll wait for it with patience, see, you'll wait for it with patience, and so I quit trying to build beautiful pictures of what things can become, even in my business, and then trying to figure out how to develop these buildings. That's just like I don't know what it's going to look like yet. And when that started happening, man, I didn't have it locked in. I wasn't like interviewing everyone to see if they fit my vision of what it looks like in the future. It opened me up to unbelievable people coming and saying have you thought about this? Have you thought about that?
Speaker 1:And everything started getting better than what I could even imagine it being, and so from then on, I was like man, this is going to be a theme of my life. Yeah, you know, this is going to be a theme of my life of not trying to hope, and you know, or trying to actually hope in stuff. I can't see Things that are bigger than me. Yeah, and that's how God's allowed us to grow, and so that's where it really came from.
Speaker 1:But it has been a constant theme, and every time I feel like we get sidetracked in our business and what we're doing or in our life. It's because we've created this goal that we can see that starts getting further and further away, and it's hard to wait for because we're going through affliction and pain and reality is like we're not hoping that God's going to take care of us whether we reach that goal or not, and so we go a little bit less on our plans, a little bit less on our goals and a lot more on our hope. And it's been a common theme for about five years now for us. By we, you mean you and Kingsley, me and Kingsley, yeah, and anyone who's going to come in on our team is going to kind of understand that eventually, over time as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what does that look like just in a day-to-day then? Because you got to keep working, you got to keep pushing for goals in the business and in the family. So how do you balance that like the necessity of having things to shoot for and aim for but also live in this? You know, maybe maybe there's a listener feeling like, well, it seems very, you know, willy nilly. Where is that balance?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it kind of goes back to what we're talking about in the sermon, is it? It's what you can't see, yeah, yeah, there's what we see and there's what we hear, and then there's things we can't see, and then there's things we can't hear, and then there's times to where you know, and and, and, as I went into it in the next section, when it talks about prayer, it's like you know it talks about the whole world is groaning together in labor pains, right, and I was talking about, you know, a little bit of like man, like. I remember Kingsley groaning when Philip was born and being like, like you're in this charge. I mean, it's the Super Bowl, right, like being competitive, we're like, let's do it.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Like pump, pump pump pump pump.
Speaker 1:And like you see, it's like well, like this groaning is producing, like keep groaning, keep going, like, and like you know you're so like supercharged, like through it and through the day to day. It's like you learn, like moments like that. It's like man, like groaning produces great things. Yeah, but then, as I talked about in the message, I believe as well, it's like man. When Kingsley lost her first baby and those groans, I remember hearing her groan. It woke me up in the middle of the night and I'm like, what can I do? And she's like nothing, just go back to sleep. And those groanings haunt you. It's like I feel helpless, home to you. Yeah, it's like I feel helpless and that's to where I have to trust even more in the things I can't see. I have to trust even more in the hope that all this is going to be made right.
Speaker 1:I have to trust even more that, hey, we're going to see our kids one day you know that we are a family, you know at that time a four in heaven and eventually become a family of five in heaven. Right and now, it would be a family of six in heaven.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, real pain if you don't have hope. You're in a spot because things start getting cloudy and you start looking at other things when the things you see aren't the things you like. You start looking at other things instead of being okay with what you can't see, and so I think you walk through it in that way of just like you have to believe there's that other dimension there, there's this thing. That is what God's doing, that one day, you know, it'll make sense. It may not make sense to me.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you're right. I mean so many people will say things after going through a tragedy, a loss, or walking through grief. They'll say Christian people will say I don't know how anybody does this without Jesus. And I resonate with that, because Jesus is the hope, he is the thing that we hope for, that we may not be able to see him face to face right now, but our hope is that we will see him face to face right and that he's working together and that all these terrible things, how does it say in Romans eight? I closed that portion of my.
Speaker 1:Bible, but that that all things work together for the good right.
Speaker 2:Right and not to make that into like a health and wealth, Like if you just believe in God, everything's gonna be great for you. No, like the good is what's coming Right. A few weeks ago we we talked about that from stage on July 4th week. We talked about we have, through Jesus, we have freedom from the penalty of sin, Like our guilt has been taken away so we don't have to take on the death that our guilt compounded for us, and then we're free from the presence of excuse me, we're free from the power of sin, that we're no longer slaves to the sin of this world, right, but that there's still sin all around us and then. So we're still hoping for what's coming one day the promise that we'll be free from the presence of sin when we're with him in heaven.
Speaker 2:That's something we haven't seen yet and we won't see it until our eyes close here and open when we're with the father in heaven. And, man, jesus is the hope. And so, yeah, man, I'm totally.
Speaker 1:Well, he's also here, right? And that's why I went into that next section of and prayer, and how this connects to prayer. Yes, because in those moments when we can't see and we can't hear, you know we feel numb and we don't know what to do and everyone's like you know well in those times, that's when you have to lean into Jesus and that's when it's like well, that's really hard to do because my heart's breaking and I'm trying to love my wife who's breaking it.
Speaker 1:But that's why it's so unique that the next section talks about hey, when we don't know what you should, pray for us. We should. The Spirit intercedes on our behalf. With what? With unspoken groanings, the same groanings, the same groanings that she was feeling when Philip was born child. That same groaning. It's like not only is he here, but he's keeping it going. We have to trust that there's that other dimension, that things are moving along, even when it's hard. And that's how we get up, because man and it's funny, because it's like sometimes it's like man, I don't know what to pray for, right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I don't know. So then it kind of stops us from praying and like, or when a friend's struggling, like a couple weeks ago I had a friend we're going to play golf and he was getting off work and he had an appointment and he's like, hey, man, I'm just going to let you know that. And we didn't even know. But I was like, you know, my wife's pregnant and but she's not been feeling well, so we're going to go get an ultrasound. If we get bad news, I'm going to hang back and won't be able to make it. And he sent me a text. It's like, hey, man, I'm going to make it. And he sent me a text. He's like, hey, man, I'm going to hang back.
Speaker 1:Like, going through what we've gone through and like, obviously, knowing what you've gone through, it's like man didn't know what to say, didn't know what to say. All I knew and I've heard, like, just be present, like however you can with that person, just like, be present. But just here you have in Scripture there's times to where it's just like, when we don't know what to pray for, as we should. The Spirit himself doesn't intercede and say the things that we should be saying, doesn't intercede and say this beautiful prayer that we wouldn't be able to. You know what it says.
Speaker 2:It says it intercedes on our behalf, with unspoken growlings.
Speaker 1:And then after that, why does it do that? It does it because the searcher of the heart that's what the unique word that says about God, right there, the first time you see God called the searcher of hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, or the mind of the Spirit knows the mind of the searcher of the hearts, because he knows that it all works forward toward the will of God, because he intercedes on behalf of the will of God. So we know that it's going to be okay. Don't know what to say, don't know what to say, don't know what to send up. Right now it's sitting in this pain. This is a season of enduring. Going back to Romans 5, right, this is a season of enduring. But I think that's what's hard and why I wanted to go into it, about this. I wanted to take this angle of hope and I wanted to take this angle of prayer, because if you are hopeless, if someone is hopeless, you as a pastor right, pastor Kurt it is going to be so hard to convince them that they need to start praying.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Especially if they don't know how to pray at the moment or if they're too hurt to think of words. Because what are we going to do?
Speaker 1:Say thank you God for all the great things in my life, as my heart is just broken. Yeah, that's true, you want to be able to say that, but it's important for people to know it's okay to not know what to say. Yeah, absolutely, it's okay for your kids. You need to be able to teach your kids. I talk about to a lot of people. I think one of the biggest problems in society we deal with is the inability to say I'm sorry and the inability to say I don't know. Yeah, it's okay to tell your kids I don't know why. Yeah, but, he does.
Speaker 1:I don't know why, but he does. And even when we don't know what to say, there's a spirit, there's a helper that we have right now that's interceding on our behalf and, after we endure, it's going to build our character and that character is going to build our hope, and that hope won't fail. So just keep moving.
Speaker 2:It's going to turn around. I want to ask maybe one more question before we round out here. So I think that the person who's struggling through a really hard season, this is a difficult sermon to listen to, not just listen to, but it's a difficult sermon to bring to life, to do something about it on Monday morning. Life to to do something about it on Monday morning. So, um, what, what I've often said uh, from you know the the pulpit is, uh, you've got to be cultivating these things in your life before you walk through the season of tragedy, before you're walking through that really hard.
Speaker 1:It would very much help. It would very much help.
Speaker 2:Right, right, because it, because it's just the truth. I mean, you're, you're saying stuff that I've lived through, right, and so many people who are listening have lived through it too that when you're going through those really hard times, the last thing you want to do is pick up your Bible especially like even as a Jesus follower, like I love Jesus, but like the last thing I want to do is is pray, like because I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 2:And so it's like that friend you have like a, like something rough happens between friends, or like there's a tragedy that happens. It's like you're saying it's you don't know what to say, so you just don't go to them and and and so, like what do you do if you don't already have this cultivated in your life of you know I, I memorize scripture or I'm I am praying every day? Uh, you know, three times a day. I don't know what your, what your rhythm is, um, okay, so the question that I have is what do you say to a person who is going through that season now and just listen to you preach on Sunday, like what's the next step? What am I supposed to do today?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I would reiterate that one. I'm walking through that myself, you know, hoping that you know when our boy goes, you know, under the knife in a couple of weeks. Yeah, that you know it's going to be okay. You know, um, you know under the knife in a couple of weeks that you know it's going to be okay, you know no one. No one wants you know it's weird because I won't. We want our eight month old to be better.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But at the same time, we don't want to sit out in the waiting room for three or four or five hours. Yeah, you know, hoping the whole time. You know that the doctor's going to come out, you know with good news, and so one I would say I'm still right there with you. This isn't a victory lap, right, we're preaching this is in the middle of the marathon. Like, we're right there with you. This isn't a victory lap, right, we're preaching. This is in the middle of the marathon. Look, we're right there with you, and so for that I would say I'm there with you. The other thing I would say is it's basically what we said in the sense of just remember, there's things you can't see. There's things you can't see. There's things you can't see, right, yeah, and there's just as much power and momentum that is going on in things you can't see.
Speaker 1:Because when it says that the Scripture himself intercedes for us, on our behalf, with unspoken groanings, right, it makes it sound like, oh well, it's doing the same thing that we'd be doing. No, it's not doing the same thing we'd be doing, although it is taking that same posture of showing you. It's okay to not have the words, right, but, lord, please, whatever it is, I don't have the words. I need help right now. I need to keep moving. But this is what it says.
Speaker 1:It says it says it says he who searches our hearts, he knows the mind of the Spirit and he intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. So, although the groanings, they're unspoken, they all go up according to the will of God, to lead to the right thing, for the will of God, because that's the will of God, that's it, that's it, that's the path, that's the map. And if it's the will of God, because that's the will of God, that's it, that's it, that's the path, that's the map, and if it's the will of God, it's going to happen. Well, those unspoken ground is knowing that there's something going on that's leading on, that God's way is marching on. And it says we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and who are called according to His purpose. Well, all things work together to the will of God. So, to know that there's things that we can't see, that there's things that we don't know Right but if we're going to have hope, we have to endure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And trusting that those things you can't see are better than the things you can't see, Right, and that the hope you have is for the will of God to come out, and one day, you know. It says at the end what I was talking about earlier in Romans 5,. It says this hope won't fail us. And so it's putting that hope in the bank and saying, hey, this is what we're building our life on.
Speaker 2:It's beyond, like the hope that we're, when it says the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of god. Right, the will of god might be beyond your personal prayer request yeah, yeah, right, god, I want that car.
Speaker 1:Right, you know that's it, ain't saying that right.
Speaker 2:it's not saying filter, it's the filter, right. And so, even when we pray for certain things, we should be hoping for even the thing that we're not imagining in our head. Like you know, relative is sick. Pray for healing over that relative, right, my mind sees. Like Lord, I'm praying for this in my request, but my hope is that the will of God would happen and that that will would work together for his glory in all things. And it is, it is.
Speaker 1:He's constantly acting and working. We've talked about that because you're telling me just a little bit about your language and your church that you all use. But I will say saying I appreciate you asking me about what I would say to that one person. What I'd also like to make sure I mention is what about the ones who don't feel like they're walking through that? Oh yeah, the ones that's like, okay, well, how does this? You know? Because you even said like it'd be better to have the spirit of prayer, to have this mentality of knowing that, hey, you know, do some pre-work, yeah, right, right Before. And what I would want to make sure is that I have the opportunity to say, especially to you as a pastor, is that, like I know, you want your members to be members. They're included.
Speaker 1:And if we believe that there is an active helper and that we have a responsibility as believers, that they have a responsibility and they have a responsibility to play their part, to be beacons of hope, to be beacons of light and to intercede on the behalf of others and to encourage others and all those things To be everyone who. I said that I wanted my leadership team to be in Romans 12, 9 through 18, right.
Speaker 1:You want that the mindset for those people should be I want to be ready, I want to be ready, I want to be able to know that I can be there and I can look out for those people. But what you're going to find a lot of times in the preparation and the prayer and I know I didn't come from a traditional I'm talking about the hard prayers. You're right, I'm talking about the hard prayers. Well, one of the hard prayers and I wish I had time to go through all this in my sermon and I don't but the last thing I'll say is one of the hard prayers is that prayer. When it talks about the beginning of Romans 12, it's like, hey, every day, what does it say? You know Romans 12, he says it's so funny. Are you sure?
Speaker 2:you got this memorized.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I did Well, listen, you can't memorize it all at once. That was one of the things I had to give myself grace to know. It's like, hey, you do one chapter at a time, that's right and that's it, I got to a point to where the first I think it was six chapters, I could say, and every day I would try to repeat chapters one through whatever, and then past like chapter six.
Speaker 1:I was like I don't even have the time to re-quote all this and it's like I was losing days. I was canceling like nine 10 o'clock meetings because my quiet time was going from like 5.30 to like nine or 10 o'clock. But I even wrote this in my book because I think this is something to where it doesn't seem like a hard prayer, but it is a hard prayer because we're prideful people and sometimes we get stuck in our ways. But it says you know when he says don't be conformed to this age.
Speaker 1:But it says, be transformed. I can't believe that's the part I forgot, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. One thing I wrote in my Bible is God, have I swayed? Is there anything I should change? The renewal, recycling, waking up and being like, yeah, even I think I'm running in cruise control and everything right, is being able to ask and say, hey, am I going the right way? That's a hard prayer. Sometimes it is. Am I looking at this the right way? Am I parenting my kid the right way? Am I loving my wife?
Speaker 2:the right way yeah.
Speaker 1:And because, as Americans, it's so easy, because we've been so blessed to be going with the norm, going with what we see, and sometimes a hard prayer could be what am I not seeing, god? And you start digging with that. You won't be in the spot of oh, how do I be prepared to help that person? You're going to be going through that same cycle yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think living in that, romans 12, one and two that do not be conformed to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Mike, so much of what you said is a much larger biblical theme. Right, you saw Romans, you made this challenge and then you were convicted that you weren't doing the challenge yourself. And so, once you started doing it, you said your days started to change, the way that you worked, the way you interacted with people, your meetings. I mean even down to the point where you were so dedicated to it. You were canceling work so that you could remain connected in the word with God.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of school of thoughts. If that was appropriate or not, we are called to be good followers too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Psalm 119, 105,. Your word is a lamp to my feet, a light to my path. I've sworn an oath and confirmed it to keep your righteous rules. The psalmist is telling us there's no better picture to show us where to go than to be in the word of God, and really when that was written it wasn't the full word of God that we have in our hands, and so really he's just talking about God himself. God is the word, Jesus is the word.
Speaker 1:A light to your path. Yeah, just a light, exactly Just a light, just where you could see a little bit in front of you. John, chapter one, verse one.
Speaker 2:In the beginning was the word Right and the word was God, and the word was with God. Here we go. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him and without him nothing was made. That was made In him was life, and that life was the light of all men. Jesus is the light 100%.
Speaker 2:And in Psalm 1, we've been memorizing this as a family at home. We're doing hand motions. It's so fun, the girls, I love that, and Jovi, my oldest. She gets competitive with it. And so I'm like Jovi, turn around and face me. She's like no, I don't want to watch you do the motions, I want to show you I can do it without the motions. So we're learning Psalm 1, and it says here we go. Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord. The blessed one, His delight is in the law of the Lord and on his law he meditates day and night. Now the psalmist was saying the law is the first five books of our Old Testament, it's the Torah, the. What's the Greek name for that? I always forget this one it's the Torah. Yeah, yeah, Whatever that's the Hebrew word for it the Torah word for the Torah.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, the law is what God gave through Moses. Like, meditate on the words of God, right? And if you do that, you're like a tree planted by streams of water and who yields its fruit in season and its leaf does not wither. And all he does, he prospers. The wicked are not, so. They're like chaff in the wind that is driven away by the wind. Do you see the big picture?
Speaker 2:The biblical picture is that if you meditate on who God is and you just spend time with him, you reorient yourself to be a person who thinks about God. Like, use the Bible to just think about God, to allow, allow those things to to transform how your brain is thinking. Well, according to Psalms, one you you turn into like the tree that's planted in the garden on page one, yeah, yeah, it's like the tree of life living in you. Now, it's not a place you have to go in the garden and eat its fruit. Like, you become the place where the fruit is just growing inside of you. And then you go to John 15, you know, you, I'm the vine, you're the branches, and every branch produces fruit, and if not, I'll prune you. Like it is truly transformative.
Speaker 2:What just reading the scripture and praying, being connected to God, does for us. It changes everything about us the way we think, and if the way we think changes, then the way we interact changes, the way we act in general and the way we work changes, and if those things change, then man people are going to start changing around us. Because a tree that produces fruit, that fruit's not meant for me. I'm getting my nutrients from the roots. I'm not eating my own fruit. Now it's for other people, people who get a taste of who Jesus is.
Speaker 1:Now, everything's transforming around me. It's getting bigger and it's growing and the dots are starting to connect and I think that's what scripture does. And if you look at just what you did, that's another way to where it's just like you started here and it's like well, this is basically this, and then punches to this and punches to that and punches to that, which is great, and I think that just also goes to show it doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't like. You know, romans 12, 9, cling to good, detest what's evil. Yes, let love be without it says. Let love be without hypocrisy. So, let love be real.
Speaker 1:Yes, cling to good, detest what's evil. You know five seconds or less, michael. What should I teach my kid? Yeah, number one thing I'd say is let love be without hypocrisy. Cling to good, detest what's evil. Yep, and if you're in this mindset, okay, well, I won't cling to good. I want to test what's evil, I want to do good. I want to say yes to good and no to evil. As you start connecting those dots, you start well, what is good?
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:Jesus says why do you call me good? There's no one good besides the Father. Okay, All right. Well, now we're digging into something deeper. I do as the Father. I All right. Well, now we're digging into something deeper. I do as the father. I've seen the father. Do you start seeing all these connections to where it's just like, well, I want to start doing it. If he's the father, I want to start following him because he's doing what his father's doing? And you start seeing these things where it's just like man, you start realizing Everyone's like oh, man, this is such a hard decision. It's like, well, no, man, this is such a hard decision. It's like, well, no, which one's the good one?
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, which one's the good one? Recently I was thinking I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about Solomon, who's the wisest king of Israel. I mean, for all we know from what the Bible says, wisest person ever. Because God gave him given, God gave him the opportunity to ask for anything and I'll give it to you. And instead of asking for riches for his kingdom, or strength in military or fortification and defenses against his enemies, he asked for wisdom. He said, man, I like I'm King, now I don't know. I don't know what's going on. And so, God, just give me wisdom. And the biblical understanding of wisdom is understanding the difference between what's good and what is evil. It's not just what's best for the kingdom right. Wisdom isn't just what's best to build your organization right or to build your portfolio. Wisdom is knowing the difference between what's good and what is evil. And you can't know what is good unless you know the Father.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, really, what is the gift that God gave to Solomon? Relationship to the Father? Yeah, so that he could know the difference between what is good and what is evil. Now the thing is right. We look at these biblical characters like David and Solomon. David, especially known as the man after God's own heart, he knew the difference between good and evil. The thing is, they weren't perfect people, yeah, right. So you look at David and, yeah, he was Israel's greatest King, almost like this pre-messianic figure, the savior of Israel, but he screwed up man. Yeah Well, paul says in seven, romans seven.
Speaker 1:You know when I want to do it. What's good, right, evil's right there with me, Right? I think that's the best. No offense to you, pastor, it's easy. I'm an ordained minister, but now that I don't work for a church anymore, I can just, you know, tell everyone what pastors should do. I'm joking, but like I tell everyone what pastors should do, I'm joking. I've always said, man, that would be every pastor should say that before they go on stage. What I want to do is, good, evil's right there. Just know that it's closer than you think. It's closer than you think. That's why you got to cling to the good. You have to cling to it and you have to know he's our hope. If we lean in and we cling to the good, that our hope is going to take care of us, because our hope won't fail us.
Speaker 2:Right, I can't tell you how many Sundays. I mean, I say it like it happens infrequently, but every Sunday, right before you walk up onto the stage, usually the prayer that I'm praying silently is Lord, I don't deserve to be up here. Forgive me, god, because, like I got my regular week stuff like everybody else man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm just chasing after the Lord, but like, like David, the figure that we all look at, or at least that that Jewish people would look at and be like that's, that's the measure of who we want to be. He had to go before the Lord and say, lord, I'm sorry. Like man, I screwed up big time. I'm searching for that prayer in the Psalms. I think it's Psalm 62, but I want to get it right.
Speaker 1:I'll say this while you're searching for it yeah, I remember after I came to know the Lord. I got hooked on Charles Stanley just in my car. I remember he would come on like 8 or 9 o'clock and for some reason I was always driving around the high school around 9 o'clock at night.
Speaker 2:Nothing good happens after 9 o'clock at night.
Speaker 1:Which back then, 9 o'clock then, was like our 11 o'clock now, so that was pretty late. And I remember riding through and I remember him saying one time just over the radio and I know we've talked about this with you, you, me and G on some of our calls that nine times out of 10, the first step to fixing any problem is repentance, just saying sorry. And so I've started to learn to address problems in a way of like Lord. I don't know why I have this problem, but I'm sorry if I've done something to create it, or I'm sorry if I put my will or my way or my desires above all that, and I just think that it's so easy to forget the goodness that God has for us if we will put our hope in him and sit with him for a while.
Speaker 1:That's obviously the big thing I talked about. This whole message was sit with me, sit with me, yeah, sit with me god.
Speaker 2:So now we're not talking about as much of like the tragedies and hardships that life throws at us just because life is hard. Right now we're talking about the tragedies and hardships that we bring on ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a result of our own sin yeah, and I think the reason why David I'm harping on him, but I'm going back to it again the reason why David was considered a man after God's own heart, even though he was a sinner like, even though he made terrible, some terrible choices for the kingdom, and he made that one horrible mistake that we read about- Can you? Imagine your one horrible mistake being plastered in the Bible for all eternity.
Speaker 1:Forever, yeah, bastard in the Bible, for all eternity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, forever, yeah. He saw Bathsheba on the roof and then he sent her husband away, essentially murdered her husband in battle so that he could have Bathsheba. And then she was pregnant and Nathan, the prophet, comes and says well, that baby's not going to live.
Speaker 1:It's the first HBO series. It is, it is the first HBO series. That's so true, yeah.
Speaker 2:Psalm 51,. I was wrong earlier when I said 62. Psalm 51 is David's what's believed to be David's prayer. Right after Nathan, the prophet tells him you know, the baby's not going to live. You're being punished for your sin against God. Here's why David is considered a man after God's own heart. He says have mercy on me, o God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me of my sin. He's remorseful, right, that's first. Maybe there's a bunch of R's, we'll see if this.
Speaker 2:I love alliteration. I'm a preacher, bro. So there's remorse, right, okay, for I know my transgression and my sin is ever before me against you, only you. Have I sinned and I've done evil in your sight. Uh, he keeps going. Behold, I've brought forth iniquity and sin. Uh, did my mother? Uh, and in in in sin did my mother. I'm gonna keep going. Behold, you delight in truth and the inward being and you teach me wisdom and the secret heart. Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean, okay, so he's getting into repentance now. I don't want to live in this sin, so get it out of me.
Speaker 2:Help me make that 180 degree turn Like let me live in this different way. Let me hear joy and gladness, let the bones that you have broken rejoice. Um. He's praying for cleansing, asking for God's mercy Verse 11,. Cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me. Man, he's recognizing, he's got remorse, he's wanting to repent and he's calling on God. He wants that presence.
Speaker 1:He's doing the Romans 12, one and two every day.
Speaker 2:Right. Show me what is good and keep me from what is evil.
Speaker 1:Well, transform me God, renew me here, yep.
Speaker 2:Renew me. Restore this is verse 12. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and uphold me with a willing spirit Verse 13, then I will teach transgressors your ways and sinners will return to you. Now he's that tree that's producing fruit for other people, so that they can see the goodness of God. Deliver me from here's a big ESV word deliver me from blood guiltlessness. I had to pause for a second on that one. Oh Lord, open my lips and my mouth will declare your praise. Now he's like the remorse has happened, the repentance has happened. He's asked God for the cleansing so that now he can become that voice of the Lord, so that when he opens his mouth now, only goodness comes from him.
Speaker 2:The sacrifices of God verse 17,. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart. Oh God, you will not despise. Do good to Zion in your good pleasure. Build up the walls of Jerusalem. Then will you delight in right sacrifices and burn offerings, and whole and burnt offerings. Then bowls will be offered on your altar. So David's still living in an old covenant era, era when the sacrifices of animals is what was the conduit to God's forgiveness and his grace on your life. Now we live in the new covenant era, where the blood of Christ on the cross is the conduit to our salvation and forgiveness in him. And so, man, it's not just about the tragedies of life. What is tomorrow going to bring? I don't know, because life is tough. But, man, how much more tragic is this play? Because I bring the tragedies on myself and my own sin and transgression and iniquities against the Lord.
Speaker 2:And so, god man, that's our prayer. And Lord, forgive me, lord, heal me, cleanse me from the inside out, and I'll hope in those things that I don't see, because Jesus has accomplished that for me, yes, 100%, that's a good word.
Speaker 1:Man, that's a great word. This has been good.
Speaker 2:It only took us 55 minutes to get there.
Speaker 1:That's perfect. I held back so much too. I held back so much. I'm glad, proud of myself.
Speaker 2:See, I'm a podcast guy, so I guess Joe Rogan he does the three hour podcast. I'm not sure if I have the physical stamina to sit and do a three hour podcast.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. It's funny. Like when I first started you know listening I talked about like I met Nate Barassi and like the thing that, like I felt, really connected me was like his podcast, but like, yeah, some of them were like two, two and a half hours long.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was just like man. It's a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's a long time to just keep digging in. So for the person who has been, who stuck with us all the way to minute 56 today, Wow. Way to go Wow. Thank you for hanging out with us today, mike. Thanks so much for coming to church and preaching and hanging out. We hope to have you back soon, man, that would be awesome.
Speaker 1:In the next six years. Dog, let's do it All right. See you, hey y'all.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening. Remember, check out crosspointkinderscom. Check out what's happening up next at the church. We would love to see you get involved and be a part of our church family. Thanks for listening today. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.