EP 3:13 Adverse Childhood Experiences and Chemsex Misuse with Kit

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/ACE

In this episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, Dallas sits down with Kit Morgan, LCSW — a licensed clinical social worker and creator of The Liberated Porch — for an unflinching conversation about Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and their direct line to chemsex and methamphetamine dependency. 

Kit, who specializes in religious trauma-informed therapy for queer people, opens by sharing his lived experience as a queer trans man who grew up in fundamentalist Baptist environments, offering language like "stealth" and reflections on embodiment that broaden the podcast's ongoing commitment to diverse voices. 

From there, the conversation moves into the heart of ACE work: how early emotional neglect, unmet attachment needs, and pre-verbal experiences of abandonment lay the neurological groundwork for the "skin hunger," pleasure deprivation, and intimacy starvation that meth so effectively — and tragically — counterfeits. Dallas and Kit dismantle the moral-failing model of addiction, reframing relapse as a signal pointing toward unhealed wounds rather than evidence of personal weakness, and emphasize that shame is what got us into addiction, not what gets us out.

Listeners will walk away with concrete tools, including Kit's "60 days of gentleness" protocol — a deliberate detox from high-impact activities like intense BDSM dynamics, punishing workouts, or chronic overwork, replaced by pleasure-receiving experiences, nourishing food, rest, and safe non-sexual touch. The conversation also explores meaning-making as a core component of sustained recovery, the difference between releasing resentment and forcing forgiveness, and alternatives to journaling like the empty-chair exercise for processing childhood neglect. 

Dallas shares a deeply vulnerable personal moment about a non-sexual cuddle experience that broke open decades of touch deprivation, modeling the kind of healing intimacy that becomes possible when we slow down and let safe people in. Whether you're newly sober, deep into shadow work, or supporting someone you love, this episode is a reminder that recovery isn't just about putting down the substance — it's about finally tending to the child inside who never got held.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Whenever having dependency on math, where it can um be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened in in those wounds. But um, but I think in in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process of being like, wow, you know, like there's another gray hair, like that that's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to to be getting to to this this point of the kind of shadow work of um of having addiction.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and ghb, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad to have you here. Glad that you are continuing to listen, and we are continuing to see record numbers of downloads for the podcast. Really, really, really, really happy to see that. And a lot of new listeners to the podcast. So if you are brand new, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. We're glad that you've taken time out. There's a lot of podcasts to listen to, um, and you chose this one. So um, today I'm going to introduce a new friend of mine and our second trans person on the podcast. I've been really seeking and asking for more diversity on this podcast, and I'm getting it, and I'm really happy to hear that. But I'm going to introduce my friend Kit Morgan here. I'm going to read these, I'm going to read this bio. And I have been told that when I read the bios, it's I I need to practice it first because it I stumble through it. Um, so I did practice this one. So I'm going to see how well I do. So Kit Morgan is a licensed clinical social worker in Indiana. Well, here I go. There's something popped up on my screen. New York, Virginia, and Indiana, creator of The Liberated Porch. It's a podcast, right? Um, is a leading innovator for queer religious trauma-informed care. Kit consults with thought leaders and healers across the globe and has featured, been featured in Out magazine as a guest speaker at Colgate University. Kit's work began in 2014 advocating for formerly incarcerated individuals through interpersonal skills, development training, and research about alternatives to incarceration for non-white men. It came to Kit's awareness that many of the incarcerated individuals had backgrounds in authoritarian authoritarian Christian groups and felt deep shame about their identities and expressing vulnerability. These were stories that Kit related to. Kit began his career with one foot in and one foot out of the closet before fully emerging into identities as a queer and trans man who grew up in the independent fundamentalist Baptist and Southern Baptist churches, where being out of the closet was both unwelcome and dangerous and sinful. In finding liberation of his identities, Kit felt drawn to pivot his career path and began to focus his work with people who ever felt unsafe in their homes or places of worship because of their gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation. While Kit specializes in religious trauma informed therapy for queer people, his work expands to other adult trauma survivors. Welcome, Kit Morgan.

SPEAKER_05 3:52

Well, thank you so much for having me here. And I just I absolutely love your work. And I'm so glad that you have this podcast and are providing education about such an important topic.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Thank you so much. Really appreciate that. Really appreciate that. So I want to get into uh your specialties, which if we're looking at your Instagram page, um online therapists for survivors of adverse childhood experiences and religious trauma. But uh before we get into that, uh you know, I'm very curious about, and I think from what I gather, listeners are about what it's like to be a trans person in today's world based on everything that's happening. But do you still feel a little bit like you're in some kind of closet? Or do you have to be like constantly aware of what you do and how you are in in public? Like, what is it like for you? I love this question.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

Uh for me, I don't feel like I'm in a closet where there there can be such a wide variety of experiences whenever being trans, just like how there can be a wide variety of experiences whenever being gay. And uh, and so there's this phrase that that's used amongst trans people called stealth. And stealth is whenever a trans person uh does not want to be perceived by others as being trans. And so it is almost like being out, but also being closeted at the same point. Uh, but for for myself, that that's not the path that that I've chosen. So even though that I may be out and about, and uh and people may not be able to tell that I'm trans at the same point too. If someone asks me about what my lived experiences are, then it's like, okay, I had a a girlhood because of how I was being treated, of growing up and being in a very religious environment. Like I wore a lot of dresses, a lot of skirts, because that was what was expected and demanded of me. So that really did end up shaping my manhood for for today and and how I look at the world and and move through the the world. Uh, but in in my trans experience in 2026 and in being an American, I mean, it it is pretty heartbreaking to be seeing um all of this dehumanization of trans folks um and and also experiencing it directly. But then this is the first time in my life where I felt fully connected to myself and feeling fully embodied. And uh, and I I think that you know, this is such a goal that a lot of people want to experience of feeling fully embodied, like feeling fully connected to themselves. And uh, and I just wish that, you know, pursuing that and also attaining that wasn't something that was being punished for people.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

That's right. Yeah. Or maybe even a big deal, you know, like right. Like I I I think uh this whole idea of coming out is too big of a deal too. You know, like it should just be this natural, like, okay, this is what I like and this is what the life I'm going into, period. Right. Um, so uh yeah, it's very similar. Okay. Well, you know, I've just I'm I'm curious. I'm learning more. I mean, I'm I'm trying to educate myself, and I I found out just how ignorant I was last summer when I I dated very briefly, but I dated a trans man. Um I I knew, you know, I knew that it was from a dating profile hinge. Uh and and he said he was trans man on there, you know. And and I'm and I'm attracted to trans men. I'm not hitting on you. I'm just saying I'm attracted to trans mentioned.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

No, I uh I got that. You're you're just being open out here because I I mean I I think that it's important to differentiate because sometimes people are only attracted to cis men and and not attracted to trans men. So you're just clarifying.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so it didn't go well. Right. And I just I said and misgendered him constantly and said things that were so, you know, uh for lack of better words, ignorant. You know. But so I just I've I realized through that experience, like, you know, I want to understand more. I want to, I I I want to to not be ignorant anymore. And so I I took it, I took some classes, and now I'm in this sexology course where we're going deep into non-binary, trans, you know, queer fluid, uh gender fluid, just all the different asexual, pansexual, just all the different types of this and that. Um, and I'm really getting a clearer understanding of what is really happening, you know, what is in this decision. Um and so I I just if this if he's out there listening, which I doubt he is, you know, I I tried to apologize, but he's blocked me. Probably rightfully so. Uh but I you know I just wanted to I I would really like to see him someday and to say, look, I I understand what I was doing and how I was, you know, just stepping all over the place. Um he had some patience at first, but it didn't last long. But anyway, thank you for thank you for explaining. And I like this word stealth. Um I I love learning new words and and I'll be able to use that too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:01

And I I also just appreciate you sharing this here because I I think part of this um in the LGBTQ community, that it's important for us just to take responsibility and accountability whenever we're we're learning new new things, you know, and I I think like whenever recognizing of being attracted to the same sex, that a lot of times there's this fixation on genitalia. And um so then whenever being attracted to someone who is the same gender but not the same sex, then that can get really complicated whenever having all of these narratives for a really, really long time. And and there can be a lot of untangling that that comes with that.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, I mean, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

I don't want to get into the things that I I asked. It's embarrassing. Uh, but okay. Yeah, thank you for that. Very much, very much. Yeah, and so can you tell us? We're gonna switch gears here. If for those of us that haven't heard of it, what what is adverse childhood experiences? What is what is that exactly?

SPEAKER_05 11:15

So adverse childhood experiences came from this questionnaire where researchers were studying about clinical obesity. And then as they were studying about this, they started to realize that there are all of these different adverse childhood experiences that people can have, where this occurs anywhere between whenever a person is an infant all the way up until age 18. And the higher of the score that they have from this adverse childhood experiences questionnaire, where anyone can do this for free online and see the results on online. But the the higher the score, the greater the likelihood it is that a person ends up developing a substance use disorder or has uh a different chronic health condition. And so whenever considering about this, it can feel pretty dark and pretty dismal of seeing this whenever these things can be outside of a person's control between ages zero to 18. Whenever people find out that they may have a high adverse childhood experiences score, they might be like, well, then is my long-term health just fucked, essentially. And it doesn't have to be. Instead, this can be something where it's shared with your doctors, your care team, of letting them know that there needs to be more preventative health services so that then you can be able to live a long life and be able to catch things sooner if that's something that comes up. Because a lot of this is connected to the stress hormone with cortisol that can be really dysregulated, of being raised up in a time whenever you are vulnerable between those ages of zero to eighteen, where that environment was not a well-regulated environment.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

So if I am curious as to if I'm trying to recover and I'm curious as to what got me here. Like we can say it's genetics if we want. Like maybe maybe mom and dad was an alcoholic or something like that. But this score can you help could help me kind of uncover this is this is why I am, this is what got me here. Was I can look at these I can look at this score and kind of determine, like I was bound to be an addict, you know, because I I I took this, so it's known as ace, right? Um I took this back when Oprah did her big push for it and wrote the book, co-authored the book about it. I was 10, I was all of them. You know, and I was like, oh, well, no wonder, you know, I ended up and and actually I should be in prison. And I almost was anyway. Uh, right. I mean, it was it's it's interesting how the score was pretty accurate in terms of determining whether I, you know, what what was in store for me.

SPEAKER_05 14:17

Yeah, it's like whenever I I consider about this too, there there can be this aspect of self-compassion there of looking back at this because I I mean, whenever I'm working with people who have addiction in my therapy work, then a lot of times people ask, well, when did it go from using to addiction? And so it's like in looking at all these different adverse childhood experiences, I think that it also opens up this picture here of wow, there wasn't really someone who was able to be soothing. And so it's like in considering about even uh having these experiences whenever being an infant and not having an emotionally stable caregiver to be showing like these different facial expressions, for instance, that were happy and were warm and might be detached or may have just left, you know, that that person whenever they were an infant alone for a long period of time, then it's like there can be this depth of of crying that it can almost feel like where then it's like, wow, like this feels like this comes from something that is so deep where the memory may not even be in that that front awareness, um, because of the the roots of of where this can be found.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, yeah. So if I find so this idea of being left alone, which to me sounds like abandonment. Right. So if I'm wondering why somebody ghosts me or breaks up with me or shows me signs of not interested anymore, I wonder why my response to that is so exaggerated in terms of why am I spiraling over this? It could be, it could be directed, it could be correlated to being left alone as a child.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's like considering about whenever being uh an infant, like crying is the way that communication is done. Like that is a way of saying, like, I'm hungry, I need to be fed, or I'm tired, right, right now. Like it's going back to you know, halt at a really early age of um where where this is brought up in in recovery quite a bit. Like, am I hungry? Am I angry? Am I lonely? Am I tired? And whenever not having a caregiver be able to consistently be responding to that, then these responses can end up becoming very loud whenever being an adult because of not being heard whenever being so young.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Okay. So if I'm in recovery and I keep relapsing, it could be that this abandonment feeling keeps coming, and my way to soothe it, of course, would be crystal meth or methadrone or you know, the drug. So my my soothing is the drug, basically. And so what what I don't think a lot of people connect here is they they're just thinking about how can I stop using this instead of how can I approach uh the problem, the the the hurt, the trauma that's causing me to want to use it. You know, like we're focused on the the the outside, the the the the symptoms that are the cause almost.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Yeah.

unknown 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_05 18:00

Oh, yeah, uh a hundred percent. Because this this questioning of like, okay, well, how how do I stop? How how do I quit? Then I I think that this is really linked to this archaic idea of early addictions treatment of considering addiction as being a moral failing, which it's not. Like, you know, it's very important to be acknowledging that. Um and it it breaks my my heart that that this is still uh a message that is put out there by addiction practitioners or in different peer recovery groups. Like this this is rhetoric that that needs to be done away with. So when whenever we can reframe things of looking at, no, actually like the the very real needs that people had whenever they were vulnerable babies, whenever they were vulnerable children were not being met, like that's where the failing started. Yeah. And like, and like, and and I also want to have compassion for you know the caregivers who weren't able to meet those needs either, because a lot of times it was this whole chain reaction of there being failures of the system that were then impacting people's families in a very deep way.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

That's right. That is exactly right. The moral failure idea of shaming you for using, you know, if for being in for being in this addiction, because I I've said it a billion times, you know, shame got you into the addiction. Shame is not what's going to get you out. So if you are in some recovery circle anywhere, it doesn't matter what, and you are feeling shame and you are being told that it's your fault and just quit and all this other shit that makes you feel really, really bad about yourself, get out of it. Get out of it. Yeah. Because that is you it's doing you no good, but compounding the issue. They might as well be sending you right outside to use drugs.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Am I correct too?

SPEAKER_05 20:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I I think about this messaging of shame of I am bad, I am wrong. And and it's like, you know, in in stepping back and and looking at at this too, it's like this kind of phrasing, then it's this this tunnel where it can be this never-ending tunnel because of having this really deep belief rather than taking a step back and questioning about like, okay, where where did this messaging come from? And so when whenever we hear, you know, um different messaging about like there is no love like mother's love, for instance, or you know, or if like turning on, you know, a football game and uh and they're saying, you know, ah, I just want to say thank you, you know, to to my family, and and are like saying all these wonderful things about their families. And then people who came from families where then their caregivers, their parents weren't able to offer that to them, then like they may have this deep shame that is like, well, I must be bad because my parents did not give me that love or that attention and that care that I needed to have whenever I was younger.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

That's right. That's right. Yeah. So my my dad used to brag about and laugh at um the fact that they would shove my crib out into the hallway of the apartment building that they lived in because I was wouldn't stop crying. Right. Now, this was a these were teenagers with a baby. Right. W what do you expect? Like you're saying. Right. That abandoned that child, that baby out there is feeling like there's something Like like you're saying, like I'm bad. My parents don't want me. I'm bad. I stand between me and the love of those who I need the love from most, the care from most. I stand in my own way, so I hate myself. I reject me. You know, and there's shame. That shame begins. And that self-loathing begins so early. We can't discount it. Pre-verbal. Right? And so figuring this out, I want to say to the listener, this does not mean you get to blame mom and dad and be mad at mom and dad or blame grandparents or bullies or anything like that. It's okay to say you were victimized. You were victimized, but don't play the victim now. Yep. Is that right? Yeah. You're the therapist here. You're the I I am loving this.

SPEAKER_05 22:58

You're just like on top of it, like this is wonderful. Yeah, cuz because I I mean, like, okay, resentment and and for forgiveness, these things can be really complicated. Um so for for instance, like holding on to resentment, this is something that can then cause a person to continue to be relapsing. But however, that doesn't mean that a person actually needs to forgive the person who abused them, because we've been learning from research that forgiving an abuser may actually um create a higher likelihood of returning back to the abuser. So there can be a possibility of holding what can seem like two opposing truths at once, of releasing resentment, but also not pressuring yourself to be forgiving that that person. So what it could look like is you know, acknowledging how this happened and acknowledge that this isn't okay that that this happened, and and grieving that, and part of grief and going through these different stages of grief, and grief is nonlinear, but anger can be one of those parts. But when whenever coming to this part of of grief of acceptance, there can also be meaning making that that comes from from that. Um, and that's something that is really needed whenever having sustained recovery happen.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Okay. Can you talk, can you double click in on meaning making in this process of grief and acceptance?

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Well, I'll I'll bring your yourself up here for example.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Therapise me.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

Well, I I I can't. Okay. You're you're not my client. Right, right. But uh, but you creating this podcast, this is you doing meaning making. The research that that you do, the education, this is meaning making. Because it's like looking at in in peer support where where it's like, okay, so I've gotten to this this point now of having sustained recovery. How am I gonna give back now? And giving back maybe to others, giving back may be to yourself, and it may be a combination of both.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important to look at your past and decide that's going to inform my future, and I'm going to make a meaning out of it that's empowering and healing and edifying for other people. Or just myself.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I think that's really important. Um and and that's the message I want to give to many of the listeners to make a meaning out of your meth experience, your chemsex experience. What meaning can you make out of it? You're talking about resentment. So so many people resent themselves for what they did. Just for using. And they go get into these spirals about what if I had never used, what would my life be like? You know. But what your life would be like would probably you would still be in the circle of trauma and not knowing, not knowing it.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

You know. So the meaning you want to make out of your chemsex experience was it got your attention. It got you looking at these ace, these this ace score, and got you looking at I didn't get soothed, I was emotionally neglected, I was abandoned as a child. Like those need your attention. And so the meaning making you could make of your your chemise experience was this was here to get my attention so that I could heal deep, deep wounds. Not just quit using a substance.

SPEAKER_05 27:23

Yeah, definitely. And when whenever I'm considering about folks who have a history of being dependent upon math, I think about this of being pleasure deprived, being intimacy deprived. And and how that can start at this very early level, because it's like in considering about attachment and and how I mean in my clinical work and and in meeting people who you know have histories of of meth uh uh sorry, I'm tripping over my my words here, over uh meth dependency, is that a lot of times like these folks were neglected whenever they they were very, very young. And so it's like thinking about this of like how important it is to be held and to be spottled whenever being a baby. Like like this, this is the the earliest part of of intimacy. And um, and so there can be like this um this skin hunger that that starts, you know, even before turning one year old. Um and and so it's like when whenever I'm I'm thinking about you know going after math, uh, a lot of times it's looking for intimacy, looking for pleasure, and trying to find that over all those years that that were lost whenever being very, very young.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Could could there also be, and this I'm thinking about me now again, I definitely was pleasure deprived. Okay. Um and that grew into sexually I didn't want anything given to me. Like I don't want a blowjob like I don't don't do anything to me. And it's almost as if I don't deserve pleasure. But I'm gonna give it. I'm the one giving. I'm the one giving all the time. But don't do anything to me. Um and I just wonder if that's if that's just what uh if that's what you're used to, if that's where your comfort is, is not receiving if that is what happens, you know, uh to some of us who were neglected, is that that's just where we're comfortable is not it's deprivation almost, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:47

Yeah, yeah. And I I think that there is this this language that that is used so often in in our community of I'm a giver. And when whenever I I hear this, I I think that it's important to explore what does that that mean? Like, does it feel uncomfortable? Does it feel unsafe to be asking for what you want? Or does it also feel uh really confusing whenever not knowing what it is that that you you want? And so then uh maybe not wanting to show that confusion to a partner of not being aware of what could be those different pleasure points of receiving.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah, and I've told this story before, it was last year. This was last year, I don't know, but um, I have a friend who I call my intimacy friend, and we went to a retreat, and the first time like we we laid naked together with boundaries of there's no kissing, there's no touching of genitals, like this we're just going to lay here, and it uh tore me apart. I mean, it was so uh it and when I say tore me apart, it uh broke down all of these walls, but it uh it hit me like this was the first time I felt like someone just wanted to touch me and give me pleasure with no expectation in return. There was no transactional part to it, and I think it was the very first time I experienced that. And it just I just broke down and just could not stop crying. Um, and then I went into all of these other things about how angry I was that it was I was almost 50, you know, but you know, because that's just where my mind went instead of being you know grateful for the moment. But I I just think you you're talking about the touch and the craving of that skin to skin. And I remember trying to get my mom to touch me and hold me, oh my god, I'm gonna cry every episode this season for some reason. Um but just like starving for that. Um and you just don't realize how that leads into myth and addiction. You just don't realize you you you you have to put all these pieces together and know that it's it was giving you what you needed at the time.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And then I think about this additional layer here, whenever being active in Matthews and whenever someone finds out about it, then there's so much stigma that then you know folks can be treated as I'll I'll call it the the untouchables. And so so then it goes back to this um this you know very early history of not not being touched with with care. And um, and and so like in our community, like there, there's a lot of um just very quick experiences with with people rather than just slowing things down and maybe just having clothes on, maybe just having those cuddle experiences, maybe not not having kissing. And I I think about what could happen for our community if more of those experiences were shared with with safe people and the different healing that could happen as a result of that, because it is really cathartic and it's something really powerful to feel so safe with a person, to to have that and to cry and to be held in that.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

So if I figure out like I I didn't get soothing as a child, okay, I was emotionally neglected. How do you go about as a therapist helping me heal from that? Besides, I think you just answered part of that, but what would you say to somebody who maybe they maybe they take this test, which I'm I'm gonna read off the 10 in just a minute, but maybe they take this assessment and they figure out they're at high risk, or they it leads them down some memories of being like, wow, I needed I needed you, mom, dad, and you weren't there for me. But so how do I heal that part of me now?

SPEAKER_05 34:47

So it really depends on who I'm working with, but something that I have found to be really helpful with folks with addiction histories that did not receive um proper or appropriate soothing whenever being very young is to ask them about the different high impact activities that they're engaging in. And then uh and I I consider it to be a kind of detox process of those high impact activities. So uh a lot of times, like what I'll see from from these folks is um is they will be engaging in these different uh kink and BDSM dynamics where either they're not receiving pleasure or then they are delegating pain. And so I ask them to be refraining from those activities for 60 days and to instead be engaging in pleasure giving and pleasure receiving with people that they feel safe with. And um, and this this can also contribute to exercise as as well. If uh if people are lifting so so hard where then they are hurting the the next day, then I ask them to be switching up to yoga instead or doing another kind of strength training that isn't going to be as hard on their body and to be doing this for 60 days. Okay, and I kid you not, Dallas, at the end of those 60 days, I have seen so much changes from my clients. I notice hypervigilance decrease from folks, I notice the impulsivity decrease as as well, and the self-esteem increase. And that does not mean you know, not engaging in those activities ever again, but it's having this space and time to be having gentleness be brought into life and to be focusing on that for 60 days and seeing what can this be like. And in this gentleness, then I don't want people to be self-isolating either, because that is not gentle, that is punishing. And so engaging in gentle activities with with other people, I think is really essential whenever tending to these wounds that happen from the interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Okay. So if I am not somebody who goes to the gym, if I'm not somebody who is engaging in in kink and and and those the high impact activities that you listed, um I still my goal though is to be in 60 days of gentleness. So I need to figure out for me, what does that mean? Gentleness. So it could be high impact mentally mental activities too, right?

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Yeah, absolutely. Of being highly productive in work. Um may mean like not getting out into nature in a relaxed way. Maybe this is also something where um shortening the the hours of sleeping. So maybe that means increasing the the hours of of sleeping as as well. It could even look like changing up things with with food as as well. Maybe that that means starting to incorporate crock pot meals, you know, um, where it's like things where it's slow of slowing down that that process uh where that contributes to to daily life.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Hmm. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah. Yeah, I would think eating a McDonald's hamburger is not being gentle when you're in the system. No. Right?

SPEAKER_03 38:40

No.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah, and being around maybe being around family that it requires a lot of mental fortitude is not a good idea during this time. No. Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

unknown 38:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Yeah. So 60 days of gentleness. What am I noticing, or what am I do I what am I doing?

SPEAKER_05 39:06

So something that I like to be considering about with with journaling, because I I do work with some people where um they don't have high literacy levels because of having neglect happen. Uh okay. Or, you know, or in and also like looking at journaling as being a gold standard, then my my thoughts are, well, what if I'm working with someone who has dyslexia? You know, and so I I like to step away from from journaling if if a person tries it, and if they've tried it for a month of doing it a few times a week, like whether that be three to four times a week for a month, and if they're like, you know what, this was not helpful, because sometimes it can actually increase people's ruminating thoughts rather than decrease it. And so some people find tremendous benefits from journaling, and other times people don't. Um, but uh so whenever people don't find as much benefits from journaling, then I find usually they tend to benefit more from having a guided meditation um or also doing an empty chair exercise. So an empty chair exercise uh is whenever um you're sitting in a chair and you have an empty chair that is set up. You can have multiple empty chairs or just one, and you talk to this chair as though it is a representative of either a part of yourself, whether that be a younger part of yourself or a future part of yourself, or it can be a representative of someone from your life, whether that be present or past. And you can be talking to them about how you have felt in experiencing neglect. And this can be a really cathartic process, and you can even switch chairs of then you sit in their chair, and then now you're symbolizing them and representing them, and then talking to your uh symbolic representation of of yourself in in the empty chair. So those are some different alternatives to journaling if if journaling isn't uh a good fit for for someone.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Yeah. Thank you for that. Because it, you know, I I do talk about journaling a lot, um, but it isn't for everyone. Yeah. So after the 60 days of gentleness, I mean, uh I'm I'm guessing you're you know you're working with a professional, but where do you go from there?

SPEAKER_05 41:42

Well then I think about this from a recalibration process.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

Uh.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Where it's like whenever people talk about going on different retreats, and then they're like, wow, like this just changed my life. And now I'm realizing that I need to be having different changes in my relationships or how I'm showing up for other people or who I'm showing up for, then I think about that and having 60 days of gentleness. After that, a lot of times what I'm hearing is needing to recalibrate relationships or different ways and how people are showing up.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah. Yeah. Recalibrate. So at work saying no to some things instead of taking it all on, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Or setting boundaries with mom.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Yeah. It's a good time to reevaluate. I like that. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. Well, let's uh let me read the ten questions for the ace. Is that okay? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if you're listening, here's the 10 categories of okay, of um, ace, adverse childhood experiences. Did you feel that you didn't have enough to eat, had to wear dirty clothes, or had no one to protect or take care of you? Did you lose a parent through divorce, abandonment, death, or other reason? Could that be losing a parent, like mentally?

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Okay. Did you live with anyone who was depressed, mentally ill, or attempted suicide? Did you live with anyone who had a problem with drinking or using drugs, including prescription drugs? Did your parents or adults in your home ever hit, punch, beat, or threaten to harm each other? Did you live with anyone who went to jail or prison? Did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down? So that could very well be also passive aggressive putting you down too, by the way. Right?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah.

unknown 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Um You know, there's people I know, there's a a a guy I knew I worked with one comment from his mom about he was she was trying to put his jeans on and she couldn't get his pants on him and she said something about how fat he was getting. That was it was like five and still suffers this body dysmorphia like when he's he's pulling his jeans on he'll start crying if they get you know a little bit tighter. Isn't that something?

SPEAKER_05 44:34

It really is, because it's like whenever people are considering about these aces, then sometimes people will be like, Well, this didn't happen my entire childhood. And then say, Yeah, okay, well then let's talk about whenever this pivoted for you and how did this change the perspective of yourself and other people and the world around you as a result of this change of dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah, wow. Um did you ever feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special? God, did you experience unwanted sexual contact such as fondling or oral, anal, vagina, intercourse penetration? So unwanted sexual contact, by the way, is I I'm talking like I know everything here, but it it is at it is at the discretion of you right. I have well, I'm gonna say this on the podcast. So my daughter is was is being touched by a family member, but it was a hand on the lower back or massaging the shoulder that might not be considered unwanted sexual conduct by him, but it is by her.

SPEAKER_05 46:01

Yeah, and I I think that this is something that is is a really important distinction too, because like like let's take for for instance this like in families depending upon like different cultures, like a kiss on the mouth may be something that is considered to be normal. But then there can also be these different breaks of cultural patterns, and then it can be like, you know what? That made me feel really icky, that made me feel immoral, like I did not like that. And yet um there may be this pulling away that that happens from from that, and then that is that unwanted sexual touch. Like whenever I'm thinking about consent, I I like to consider it about the Fry's model of consent, that it's freely given. So there is no expectation about it. It can be reversible at any time. So maybe that was something that a person liked was like of greeting their family member, of having a kiss. And then they got to an age where they're like, actually, no, no, no, I don't like that. And then it's informed, it's enthusiastic. So if there's a pulling away from from that, then that is not consensually done. And it's specific as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yeah, and then so let's go back to my daughter example when she reports this to her mother, it's swept under the rug as that's just how he is. So then that goes into another number here, right? Is that did you feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special, or any of these other, you know, any of these others is that then she's felt she feels uh invalidated, right? And even that that compounds the problem in that moment.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

Yeah, absolutely. And it's like, you know, I I know that like invalidation can be a feeling, but it can also be an experience. And so, like for her to have said, well, that's just the way he is. This is something that is told to a lot of people who have gone through unwanted contact. And so, so it's an invalidating behavior. Um, and and it's like, and I I know that this is part of a generational pattern, but it's something where where we we can break this pattern. Like, like we we don't have to say, oh that's just how how they they are, you you know, where it's like, okay, like I I hear this, you know, and like and you know, thanking the the person for saying this made me feel uncomfortable. Um, because that that's very vulnerable in and of itself to say those words.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Well, if he does it again, she's gonna there'll be another one where did your parents ever threaten to harm each other? Because I'm gonna harm the man? Um so I might have to add to the a score. Um so if I okay, so based on these 10, should I could even if one of them applies to me, isn't that important enough for me to to pay attention to and try to kind of unpack it?

SPEAKER_05 49:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um in in being a trauma therapist, though, I have not worked with someone who only has just one. Um anyone, you know, that that I have met with with addiction, uh whether that be in my my personal or or professional life, doesn't just have have one. Um, and and part of this, it's like, okay, considering my my sample size, you know, I know it's skewed because of what I do for a living and because of the kind of environment that that I grew up in. Um you know, but uh, but I I don't think that uh people with one ace uh score are are gonna be as likely to be open to having these different conversations because it hasn't been something that that has really touched their life before.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I mean this can be found anywhere, by the way, guys. Um, but we can put a link to your maybe your do you have a favorite site where people can go on and take this assessment kit or not?

SPEAKER_05 50:46

No, yeah, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

All you do is all it did was yeah, Google Ace Assessment, right? Um, but so you can find this anywhere and go on there and take it if you haven't already. If you weren't weren't a part of the big push uh a few years ago, uh you know, Oprah, what anything Oprah gives attention to, the world embraces. Um so Oprah got on the train of the ACE scores um a while back. But it the question was the question was not why are you like this, is what happened to you. Right. That was her, I think the name of even her book was what happened to you. Um so I think it's it's just so vitally important for you in the recovery for long-term recovery. Like you can get to this 90 days, six months, a year and you want to start looking at this pretty heavily because these a these adverse experiences have caused deeply ingrained patterns beliefs belief systems in you that will fight to repeat if all you do is leave the substance behind and not dig into this work.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

Yeah, right? Yep. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Yeah, yeah. And you need a uh a a specialist like Kit Morgan, L C S W to help you with this. Um so yeah, thank you. Um okay. So what did I miss here, uh, Kit? What am I what's some important uh information that you think we could go over that uh I might have not touched on today? Anything come to mind?

SPEAKER_05 52:41

I think that this was uh so in depth here where you know where people can can learn a a lot from from this. And and I mean it, it's like whenever considering about adverse childhood experiences, it it is something where it's depth work that that happens with with it. Uh it can also be called shadow work as as well. Yeah. Um where I I think about this from uh the the concept of of Peter Pan, where Peter Pan was chasing around his shadow to you know try to sew it onto his his shoe. So so that it could be a good thing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And I I think about that, you know, um whenever having dependency on on math where it can um be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened in in those wounds. But um, but I think in in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process of being like, wow, you know, like there's another gray hair, like that that's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to to be getting to to this this point of the kind of shadow work of um of having addiction.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah. Yeah, and you know, for somebody who's constantly needing validation, you know, and that's what myth gave them. It could be possible that you just you just didn't get it as a child, and you've been searching for it ever since. Right. And it could just be a matter of when that urge comes up to be validated is that you just sit with it. Yeah. And maybe uh and maybe hold yourself. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like that part, that baby, it needs it needs held. Yes. But we wanna it's like because when we were a baby, we didn't we we didn't know how to do it, so we tried to get to the next best thing as fast as we could. I think we're in that same mindset now. Is I feel a little uncomfortable and I've got to do something about it right in a second. Instead of just stopping being with it and being with yourself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for your time today, kid.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

Thank you so much for having me here.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

I feel like I talked too much on this episode.

SPEAKER_05 55:26

I don't think so. I uh one one bet. I I felt like it was a really fluid conversation here. Um and and like I I just think about like the the vulnerability here, and I I'm grateful for all the things that you shared.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

Yeah. Good. Thank you. So can you tell us before we go about your podcast, The Liberated Porch? And I'm gonna, for those watching, I'm gonna put your um your Instagram up on the screen here.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

Yeah, so the the Liberated Porch is an educational platform that I started. And um, and so I have a Substack where I write about it. I I also share some of this information too on Instagram and and TikTok, all under the name The Liberated Porch. And uh and then I started this podcast, and it's exploring about sexuality, gender identity, gender expression, and how it relates to adverse religious experiences, because adverse religious experiences can also be uh very tied to people's adverse childhood experiences, um, depending upon what people went through. And uh and so I I want to help people of um of learning more uh about this um so that then they can find freedom from from shame and and finding the the words to be articulating their experiences.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

Lovely. Love it, love it. Thank you. Great, great work you're doing. It's so needed, so needed. I really appreciate it. I'm gonna dig dig deeper into it um this weekend. I've put time aside. I should have done it before the podcast. But I didn't, I didn't get to it. Um, but yeah, I appreciate you taking your time today. And um I know it's gonna help somebody. And um, so if you are listening and this helped you today, or if you dig into Ace and you find it helpful, tell us. Tell us in the comments. Um, you can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify. Hopefully, soon on Apple Podcast, you'll be able to comment too and watch the episode as you can on YouTube. Um, yeah, so thank you again, Kit. Appreciate it very much. Um, and I hope you all enjoyed, and we'll see you next week.