EP 3:17 Where Does Intimacy Begin with Thr33

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/intimacybegin

In this deeply personal episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, Dallas Bragg explores what intimacy truly means—and why it has nothing to do with sex. Joined by his close friend Thr33 (also known as Tucker, a therapeutic yoga instructor based in the Asheville area), Dallas traces the years-long evolution of their friendship as a living case study in building real connection. From their first awkward exchanges on a dating app to the moment Thr33 set an early, gentle boundary that Dallas initially read as rejection, the two unpack how vulnerability, repair, and commitment became the foundation of a bond that has reshaped how Dallas relates to himself and others. Dallas shares the raw story of sitting with a wave of jealousy and abandonment in the middle of a restaurant—letting the trigger move through his body rather than acting on it—and the profound breakthrough of lying beside a naked friend with clear, agreed-upon boundaries and no sexual expectation, finally understanding that someone wanted him simply for himself.

Throughout the conversation, Dallas and Thr33 offer a practical roadmap for gay men navigating sexual reintegration and the fear of sober intimacy after chemsex. They emphasize that intimacy is a practice, not a destination—built slowly through honest communication, clearly defined "containers," and the willingness to name a "charge" before resentment takes hold. Thr33 speaks to his journey from people-pleasing toward stating his needs up front, while Dallas reframes triggers as messages pointing toward growth rather than evidence that a relationship is failing. The episode lands on an encouraging invitation: intimacy doesn't have to begin with sex or a hookup. It can start with one hard, vulnerable conversation with a friend or family member—the first step in learning, as Dallas puts it, that "into me, you see."

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Dallas Bragg

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So I really wanted people to see that.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I would I'm gonna emphasize one more time because I think this one is really important. Uh is just pacing going slow. Yes. Cause like that's that's the way that we did this. That's the way that I've seen in my own personal experience that allows the intimacy to grow.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad you're here. Today we're talking about intimacy and what intimacy truly is, how to establish intimacy together with another gay man, which is very scary for many of you. I know it was very scary for me. Um, oftentimes clients come to me and we've got them to a place where they've quit the substance, um, and now they're ready to get back into their sex, get back into sex. Sexual reintegration is that whole process of trying to be sexual without getting triggered or discovering your kinks and fetishes again. It's there's so many complex layers there that you have to go through when you want to get back into enjoying sober sex. I talk to men often who haven't who have stopped 15 years ago and haven't had sex since. Um I have men who haven't been able to get an erection in 15 years. So there's a lot that goes on here that as a result of a quote unquote sex drug, or you know, chem sex, you're having these chemicals to have sex, but then you have to, there's ramifications and you have to go through the the process and the consequences of what you did. So today I'm going to share a personal experience with my what I call my intimacy friend, really my best friend, um, three Shelton. Um, I'm going to share our experience and how we just we have gone about establishing an intimate relationship. Um, and I don't know, I'm not talking about fucking either. Because this is the thing. This is what we're talking about today is a lot of you hear the word intimacy and you think it means being intimate in terms of having sex. And that is not what we're talking about here. Um, so three, could you welcome to the podcast and could you tell us about yourself, please?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Thank you so much for that beautiful welcome, Dallas.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Thanks for having.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Um a little bit about myself. Yes, so I go by the name Three, um, but you'll find me on the internet as Tucker. Uh that's what my mom still calls me, working on it. But uh I live in Asheville, North Carolina area, and I'm a yoga instructor by trade. Um yeah, just interested in growing in authenticity and getting to connect more with my inner truth and the inner truths of other people. Um, and yeah, I'm super stoked to be here. I admire what you do and have admired what you do for so long. Um, and yeah, just really honored that I get to be included in this process. So um maybe there's more I could say, but I think that's a good summary.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Thank you. Um you are you are yoga Asheville, by the way. Let's just say that. You are yoga Asheville. Um yeah. And I do slip up and say Tucker sometimes in my mind. And that's what you are. Yeah. Still in my phone. I have to change that. Yeah. Um, okay. Well, let's talk about our process a little bit, and then I'm gonna ask you about your own experience too. But so we met on, I think, some date dating app. I don't know if it was Facebook dating, maybe or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 4:15

Yeah, probably would have been back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yeah. You were like the only probably the only plausible possible one on Facebook dating for me to match with. Um, but we lived two hours away from each other, and somehow we you may have had your Instagram on the face on the profile. I don't probably. So I followed you on Instagram, and then we started chit-chatting there. Um, just chit-chat, normal chit-chat, um, back and forth. But it became this voice ma voice memo relationship. Right. And I I don't know who was first, but we started sending each other these voice memos back and forth. Um, we had some of the same friends, and so so at first there was a little bit of sexual tension. Um, because then we exchanged numbers, right? And then I don't know if there were we didn't there was never any dick pics or anything like that. Thank God. This, you know, it's like probably the only friend I have that I haven't seen their dick. And so, but we did there was some racy, can maybe some sexual undertone stuff, right? But you you set this early boundary, which I was not used to boundaries at the time. And it was look, I'm not I don't want to talk sex sexually. I like you, I like talking to you, but that's I'm not available for that. So for somebody like me at the time, this was probably three years ago, I guess, right? Um I boundaries feel like rejection. Right? Because I I don't know, I didn't know what boundaries I I've never traditionally had boundaries. You know, it just wasn't my thing. Um and so but usually when I would get something like that, a comment like that, I would just block somebody. Because that was just my that's that's my boundary. Bye, you know. Um, but there was something in the way you handled that that was, you know, it was honest and it was gentle, and it was also just like in this space of you know, following up with, but I still want to get to know you. You know? And so there was something about the way you handled it that got my attention, and I was like, oh, this is somebody that I feel like I need I want in my social circle. So let me let me ask you first, kind of where did you learn about boundaries in terms of speaking your needs like that? Like, like what where did that come natural to you? Is that something you had to learn?

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Yeah, I learned about boundaries by not having them.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, me too. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Uh and then suffering the consequences. So um, yeah, uh, you know, recovering people pleaser over here, working on it. And um, I think one of the hardest things to do when you're trained to monitor other people's needs and feelings is to know what your own are. Um, and so I have been on this healing journey for a couple years now of understanding that I was doing that, that that was even a part of my being, and now and then starting to rewire. And so that's that's been a process, that's been a journey. But then I I've found that it was easiest to do that right off the bat, because it's like once I'm getting somebody put it right there so that it's not something I we have to like unlike stick later on. Uh so that was that's been a journey. Uh, but even when we had that interaction, that was still early for me in this like time of trying that out. So uh yeah, I'm glad that it was well received.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Yes, yeah. And so I point that out to say that is when the intimacy began. Because you were being vulnerable, you were taking a risk, you were speaking, you didn't have to say that. You could have just did what a lot of gay men do, which is fade away. Or what is that, that slow fade or ghost me. You know, you didn't have to say that. You didn't have to share that part of like, this is where I'm at, and this is what I'm available for, and that's not like so to to that's that's where I feel like our intimacy began in that little little little comment. And that also opened me up to be able to share, because I was like, well, if he's setting a boundary, I'm going to set one. But I did, you know, I didn't not yet, but you know, but that was that was the beginning of it. And so as we went along, um you did get involved, you know, with with a man, and I still had romantic uh inclinations toward you. And you started saying to me, you started saying that you love me in these voice memos. I was very triggered by that. I was activated by that because it felt too vulnerable. And it felt like kind of a slap in the face of because wait a minute, I'm not available for romantic things with you, but I am with him, but I love you. You know, like I've never really said I love you to anyone or they say it to me. And let's just remember, those of you have listened to the podcast for a while, that was my fetish in chemsex was having the guy tell me that he loved me. How sad is that fetish? And what does that say about the trauma inside? Please tell me you love me, right? Uh, but that's you know, so you didn't know that, of course. However, I was able to say that to you. You know, I was able to say, you know what, that's that is kind of making me triggered. It's kind of like I don't like that kind of thing. And but that was uh to me, it was our first repair as well, because I was able to say to you, this isn't you. This isn't a trigger, you didn't trigger me. That word, you telling me you love me triggered me, but it's because of my own shit coming up. Um, and so that was another time of saying something really uncomfortable of I feel hurt when. And and and being able to say that with confidence that it's going to be me met with love, with openness, not with defensiveness either. Do you remember that or or am I just making that up?

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Oh, I remember that, yeah. Uh but I yeah, I think that that's like when intimacy is built, like even deeper. It's go through those layers of um repair, like you're saying, you know, it's like that that uh like fracturing and then like this commitment to keep showing up and holding the container together.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

It it is commitment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah, I read I read somewhere, let's see, I wrote it down. Intimacy is a practice, not a destination. And it is a commitment to keep practicing intimacy. And the more you practice it, the more it stronger it grows.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Exactly. And then the more you're able to take risks with each other, too, I think. So over the years, you know, then you had the boyfriend, then you had the boyfriend, the partner, and then you had partner problems. Right. Right. And but there was one particular moment, and I want to share this. I want to share this, um, not particularly for the intimacy, but but partly for the listeners, in that I still had these romantic feelings for you, and you left a voice memo, and it was all about this other guy. I was in a restaurant having lunch. So I'm listening to the voice memo and my whole body was activated. You know, it was jealousy, it was um abandonment, it was rejection, it was all those things. Because even though at this point we weren't sharing completely everything, because I still had I still had this notion that we might become romantically involved, I didn't share that. So it wasn't, you know, the intimacy wasn't deep enough for that. So I, you know, that wasn't something I shared. But so when I heard this voice memo from you, I'm in this restaurant, and I decided, because of everything I've been learning, I had decided to, I'm gonna let this trigger run through my body. I'm not going to hang up, I'm not going to get upset, I'm not going to text something back, I'm not going to get mad. I'm going to, what everybody says is feeling is healing. I'm going to let this ride. And so I sat there. I had to grab the table because my body was shaking so much. I was shaking and crying, and I had my eyes closed, but I just let it. It was, it was as if it came up through my feet, all the way up through my body, and it came up to my head, and it just kind of fluttered away. And I looked up and the server is staring at me, you know, and they're like, she was like, Are you okay? It's like, I am so good. Because I I felt so good after that. Because I and then I felt like, wow, like this is what it's like to lean in and sit with these big, strong trauma emotions. Because it wasn't you. It wasn't you rejecting me. It was some feeling from some time when I was a boy, I'm sure. I could probably unpack it and attract and track it back. But I want to say this to you guys to say that in when establishing intimacy with somebody, they are going to bring up all of your shit.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

Is that right? That's it right there. That's what relationships are, right? I'm sure you talk about this, but they are mirrors and they're just going to show you what's inside. So yeah, I something I admire about you, Dallas, so much is that you acknowledge and remind me over and over that when I'm triggered, it's for my own growth. And so when you when one of us is doing something that then brings it up for the other, that that's actually an opportunity to seize on and be like, yes, okay, here's a growth moment, versus, oh no, it's all falling apart, and like push it all away and hide and go back to our other patterns.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

So that's right. That is right. There's something that we often say with each other is that triggered me. Well, it's usually me. It's usually me getting triggered. But I would say that triggered me. And it's nothing you it's you are being used by the universe to send me a message and to show me where I need to work. It's such a great relationship to have because it's never personal. Right. Like I am experiencing a trigger. Yes, it was something you said or something you did, but I know you I know that is a message for me to work on something, and thank you for being that catalyst of change, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, so so we as as the years have gone on, we've we've we've practiced this and we've established this. And so we can say openly to to each other, like it's intimacy is into me uh you see, or into me I see, but into me you see. And so for gay men, and especially for me, is I I I spent three dec over three decades not letting anyone see into me. Because I was in the closet. And then we think when we come out the problem's solved, but it isn't. Because we're still in the practice of you can't see me. And if you see me, you're going to you're you're going to regret it. You know, you're going to you're going to reject me. You're going to hate me if you do see what's in here.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

I said the exact same words to you. I was like, you know, if people really knew what was going on inside, then they would, you know, think I was a terrible person. You know, like that's the the root fear that I have to keep processing over and over. And I remember when when we met in the progress from there to now of like the the shelled version of you, that I was like I was like, Oh, Dallas has this nice little spiky shell, but I know he's talking to the middle, you know. And then it would be like this over time that's like opening and unfolding, and it was always those like vulnerability moments that it's like rawness and realness that would allow that in. But it's scary to freaking do that. And especially with gay men when it's like it's like what is a relationship with a man, because we weren't supposed to have those, but then it's you know, it's like oh, when we get to, it's like always then blended with sexuality, and then especially with another gay man, it's like, well, every time we interact with each other, it's like sniffing butts, you know. Like it's like, how do we how do we do this? So then yeah, it's like easy to kind of get get gray. So I think that yeah, just building our intimacy over time and letting each other in. Um I think it's it's a good thing for it to be a slow process.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Um yes. And and back to the commitment thing, you you've always been committed to this, to what we're creating. There's something, I don't know why or how, you saw something, I think, in me and and us. Um I I would have run off a long time ago, because that's what I do. That's why I don't have I have one other close gay friend. Um, and he took me back after dru after I went into drugs and you know, ignored him for years. Um and so, but you it was a commitment of no matter how hard the shell or no matter whatever, you're I'm coming back because this is I'm committed to this friendship. Um, it's like committing to you know a romantic relationship, right? Um and so we started to to gradually becoming more vulnerable with what we shared and being more comfortable with saying, you know, to like for me sharing, like I did this last night, you know, like something that I would be ashamed to show somebody else, I would I started to share with you. Then we got to this point in our relationship where you had considered we had talked about possibly um coming together in some type of physical way, not you know, to practice fract practice physical intimacy, perhaps. Because you had you were trying things with you know someone else, you were going to some to some retreats and things like that. So that possibility came up. And so then that kind of was in the air between us, right? And so that complicated, not complicated, and it complicated things for me a little bit too, because I think it started stirring up, well, maybe this, maybe this is meant to be, maybe we're always meant to be together or whatever. Um, and because I will be honest with you, and I think you knew because because you cut it off, I was not, and maybe not still in a place to practice full-on, like deep physical, like kissing and touching and you know, genital stuff. I don't know that I'm in a place where I could practice that with somebody I'm so close to and not get attached and not go in a deeper and get attached in a deeper way. Um, and I feel like that at that point it would change everything for the friendship.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Um so moving along, we did um get physical, finally, but not, you know, and not in uh the way that you you would think think intimacy is, and that is we were able to um, we've been able to lay together, cuddle, um, even with no clothes on, with predescribed uh pre prescribed boundaries. Right. There is no kissing, there's no touching genitals, uh uh don't touch your nipples. I accidentally did that once. Um but you know, just and so when we the first time we did that that was so that really it took me into this deeper level of healing that one I didn't know was possible, but two, I didn't even know needed to happen. Because I'm laying there with a naked Man with no expectations of sex. And it it dawned on me when we were laying there. I think you were Big Spoon at that point. Because I remember this point, and I was like, he is here just for me. Like, he doesn't want me to fuck him, choke him, hit him, call him a disappointment, or anything else the other men want me to do. Like he really wants me for me. And what? And I'm just like bawling. I cried the whole weekend that weekend because something broke loose for me in that moment. And I understood kind of, oh, this is intimacy. This is really what it feels like. Beyond all the performance and the uh the the pressure of should we fuck, should we not fuck? What if I don't get hard? What if I come? You know, all of that stuff. Beyond all of that, it was a soul-level connection. Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. I've done a lot of talking.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

I'm enjoying it because I get to like relive our story through your eyes, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, not to go on too much of a tension, but I feel like that's like where intimacy gets confusing for us is like we where relationship is the only place where it tends to be like safe to feel that. And but then it's confused with, oh, there's this, there's all these layers of like performance, like you're saying, or like gotta do it right, or um, you know, this kind of like I gotta put this mask on in order to get received in this way, in order to get the thing that I want, you know. But if it's like we just take all the masks off and it's like, hey, it's just us, and there's no there's no expectations here, you know, and there's you see the boundary, you know the container, so you know the sync key that will hold you in that experience, then it's like oh, we can start to relax all that just be ourselves. And that to me is like that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, yeah. So can you talk a little bit about container for the audience? Like, what does it mean to have a container?

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Yeah, um, I mean, to me, container can be so many things, but it's really just like a almost I would describe it more energetically that it's like knowing the like the foundations that you can flow inside of. Um, so I think about the world as like you know, that kind of yin and yang or shiva shakti, these kinds of like masculine, feminine divine archetype, and like that masculine structure, which is like a you know, a like a cup, and then the the feminine flow, which is the water that would fill it. And so if if there is no cup or the cup is cracked, then it the water's gonna leak and go everywhere and splatter, you know. But if you hold it in a container, then you can use it the way that you want to, or you can take it somewhere and utilize it. So this is to me like the gift of a container, and a container could be boundaries, yeah, yeah. Like how you know our communications, um, it could be more of a physical thing or or more of an energetic or mental, emotional, uh, conversational thing. So, you know, we can hold containers with like you hold containers all the time with groups. Um you're holding containers right now with this podcast. It's like we hold the container in our relationship that we create together that's like, oh, this is how we're going to meet each other in this relationship, and these are the boundaries and structures of this relationship. And I think a lot of times those things are just not spoken, but something that helps that I've seen for me and for us is when we speak it. And if we just this is what the container is, you know, this is how available I'm gonna be, this is how I'm gonna communicate with you, um, these are the things I'm not gonna do, you know, these are the things that I want to grow, and I'm asking for accountability with, you know, like a way that like the container can then serve a purpose versus just being like loose, yeah, and we'll see, you know, unfair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what with what has been your experience then with with other men in this? Because you you have a lot of men, I mean, you your social circle is so wide. I mean, like 10, 20 times mine. Um, but you have men's groups that you go to, you know, they're they're straight men too. Um, and you have ri other retreats that you've gone to. What is what is your experience with that in terms of how do you go about the conversation, perhaps, or what is your overview, I guess, of of establishing intimacy with a gay man? Or with a straight man?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

With any human.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah. Any human. I mean, it's always communication. It always comes back to communication for me. Um, and that's an area that's like a work in progress as recovering people pleaser, because it's hard to tell people something you think they don't want to hear. Um, but that's that's where the work is. So yeah, I'm a part of uh like men's groups um with and I'm like with mostly straight men in those men's groups, and that's been an interesting growth edge for me uh because I was not interested in spending time with straight men for a lot of my life. Uh actually afraid too. Uh, and so this has been a really important piece of like healing that. And then I've had um like gone on like gay men's naked tantric yoga retreats, right? Which are like a whole other thing, like a whole other experience because it's like group of gay men, let's take our clothes off, but uh so much healing in that too, because they're it like it took away, like we're talking about like the pressure because it was like, oh, we're all just we're all just naked. Not like it's like now we have to, you know, it like there's no it's like and now we're like you know eating lunch, and now we're gonna go to a fifth class, and now we're gonna meditate, you know. Um definitely, you know, those are two very different containers, but um in each one it's like knowing what are the boundaries, and and then communicating those. I found when relating to gay men that for me what I find the most helpful as I said and as I practice with you is like early on saying, here's the boundary. Um now when I make a a new gay friend, that's the first thing, our f our first hangout when we're first communicating, or even if they send me a message on like a like a social media and then I'm responding, I'll say, Hey, just so you know, like this is where I am. Like I'm I'm open to friendship and and connections like that, but I'm not here for anything romantic or sexual. Uh and so I'll say that from the very beginning, and then it's you know, you then you see how the person responds. Right a lot of information, right? So it's like, are they going to meet me in this container or are they going to show, oh, this is not a fit, you know. Then I say thank you and I would move along. Or this does really feel like a good container, we can continue to connect and get to know each other. And um yeah. So for me, that's been super helpful. Um just saying it right from the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So communication sounds like that's the that's the key. What are you laughing at?

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I love you.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

When I'm when I'm what?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

When you're working.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

When you're working all business right now, mister. Uh yeah. So communication is obviously not something that comes easy or something we're taught. Right. And commute communicating in and of itself is something that's vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Yeah. For a lot of me. But also communicating with your mask off, as you said. Is also is also something to be looking for. So so for you, I I guess for you listening, where do you start? And I think meeting somebody on Grinder is probably not I mean, uh not always, I don't want to say always, may not be the best place to go to practice intimacy with somebody. But if you are scared of physical intimacy, if you are scared of sober sex, if you have no libido or whatever, I'm telling you the place to start is with a friend or a family member and begin the vulnerability journey. Share something that's hard to share. Say something that's difficult to say, the scariest thing. Just telling somebody that you have an issue with chemsex. That's vulnerability, that's intimacy. Into me, I see into me you see you are showing a part of yourself that is hard to show, that you might be ashamed. You know, eventually three and I have shared um secret fetishes. You know, sexual things that that we've shared that you know that that are that we now have a container where it's safe to share that. Right? Um, and so I would just say to you, like it doesn't have to start with a massage, it doesn't have to start with a fuck buddy, although those are nice. Practice intimacy first by being vulnerable and having these hard conversations. Um and then the other part here that we've I think done really well and has established um a higher a deeper level of intimacy is the repair work we've done. Right. Because there there was a time recently when there was perhaps you talk about container, you know, it needs to be going somewhere. I think that you, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that you are beginning to feel that perhaps we need to take another look at this container. You know, has it gone it's where it needs where has it stopped evolving? Has it stopped growing, right? Um, because sometimes I, you know, at that time I was spinning out. Um, but you shared something and it was maybe you were too tired to be sharing, you know, through voicemail. Um and then I was too tired to be receiving, right? And things were were said, right? Um, but the repair that we do is so that when you when you work to repair, and I think you call it when you have a charge against someone. Is that right? Can you talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Yeah, so um I don't know where that term came from. I think it was from men's work, but just like when I feel a charge, which to me is like energy built up in my system that doesn't have a place to go, then that's when like uncomfortable and unhealthy things start to happen. So let's say I like, oh, you know, like the way that person commented on something, I didn't like that, and then I didn't say anything. But then the next time, oh, they did it again, and that's like building up this like like level of energy in my system, and so I feel like I've got this charge, like I need to do something with this energy. Um, so that's where I might say, Hey, um I've and I've done this with you, I've done with this with all my intimate friends and my close people, and I'll say I am experiencing a charge in my system right now, and so I just want to express it and connect with you and kind of share what that is for me, and and then then we start a conversation that way. Yeah, but yeah, for me that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

It it's I I think it's difficult for a lot of people to share those kinds of charges, especially these days when we have these cancel cultures and we have people just ghosting when they're not when they're upset or or going off, you know, or I'm gonna give you a read, as we, you know, we want to do in a gay culture. But, you know, you coming to say, I have it, I have a charge. And then and then what we could do at that point is we can talk about the charge you're experiencing, a a personal, it's not a personal hit of how I'm gonna start listing all the other things you do that bother me, right? And and I'm gonna bring up the path. I don't think we've ever done that. I don't think we've ever brought up the past to say, you know, you've done this before, right? But but we have in a in a very vulnerable way, in terms of when I notice a pattern with you. Yes, and you notice a pattern with me, I'm gonna say, hey, I just noticed something. You're in the same pattern you've been in, which was part of the problem, but part of the issue this last time was I was in a I was stuck in a pat I was stuck in a cycle, a pattern, which God, thank God I got out of. Part of it was because of you pointing it out, too. But we we have the confidence and the vulnerability and the intimacy to say, hey, I notice you're repeating a pattern right now. How can I help you with that? Or is there a way I can hold you accountable? You know, and we hold each other accountable for things. And then and then we reassess our conversations even. Like you came back earlier uh lately and it's like, you know, I am trying not to be, uh, I don't want to complain anymore. I don't want to bitch, you know, about life or about myself or about other people. Can we in this container, this that's the word of the that's the word of the podcast container, I guess. But can we in this container limit that? You know, can you tell me if you hear me? But let's let's not complain together. Let's build each other up in this. And I, you know, and I was uh on board with that, and I think we've done well so far. I think we're doing um and so on the repair work, you then after we had we had, you know, done the whole cuddling thing and we've been we've been naked together and that kind of thing, you made a final decision of I am not opening, I am not available for going farther physically. That was that was still a question. Right? Um, and there was an aspect of me, even though I was like healing and crying and just like so like over the moon feeling this like all these wounds were coming, like were just being healed just by you holding me and just by me holding you, there was still an aspect of me thinking, oh, is this is this the beginning of us doing you know more? I think that's a natural question because we hadn't addressed it. Right. But you I so there was so then when you had decided that that was not something you wanted, um, you started to pull away from me.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Right. So this is uh I was really happy I was really happy for myself in the way that I handled that one. Yes. Because I had I like got your attention, pull you to the side and sat you down, look at you, and like, it's okay. Don't do this. Let's let's you know, let's cuddle a little more, but I'm good. Like I'm fine. Cause I, you know, because I was fine, you know, with without it. But um that was uh maybe a little bit of people pleaser in you. Right? Not wanting to or being just maybe you were avoiding saying it to me, you don't want to hurt my feelings, you know, and you and you saw how happy I was, you know, and how how healed I was and all that kind of stuff. Um but you did, and you told me and you're like, this is it. Like I don't want anything more than this. Um and I was perfectly fine with that. I was perfectly fine with that because look, I I have never ever just been able to lie with a man with no expectations ever. There's always expectations either from him or on myself. And I always Whoa, the desk is going up. Sorry. I pushed I'm not getting excited here. I pushed the button and the desk started going up. Um I don't even know what I was saying. Oh, um the expectations thing. And so anyway, that's I'm I'm I'm offering these examples as ways to show different levels of intimacy, how to establish this and what intimacy truly, truly, truly is. And we've been able to, for years now, bring this forward and bring it to what it is today, um, where it's so beautiful, I think. Hopefully you agree with that. I I've just I've never had uh a friendship, you know, that that also kind of uh healed these wounds around gay men that like this has. And and given me what this did is give it gave me an uh a peek, a a glimpse, an insight into what it could be like if I were to break down my walls and be intimate with another gay man. And you're not the only gay man in the world that I can do this with. Right? And and so it just it there's so much hope in that. Um because a lot of us who come out of chemsex uh misuse are traumatized by gay men. There's a lot of non-consensual sex, there's a lot of broken boundaries, there's no boundaries in chem sex. Um there's this there's this um overall feeling that men are out to get me, they only want to fuck, um, I only want to fuck them. You know, there there's this this dark world that we come out of, and then we come into this sober world and we just we we hunker down, and either we don't try sober sex or we're convinced we're not gonna have it, or we just totally misunderstand what intimacy is, which is what I think which is why we're doing this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

There's something come up for me if I may.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Okay. Yes, please.

SPEAKER_03 41:31

All right. This is like from I think Renee Brown, and she like had this little talk, she was talking about something, but it was like the trust jar. It's like a marble jar that put like every time you do something uh that reinforces trust, then you're putting a a marble in the jar, and then eventually that jar is like full of marbles, and then y'all can really lean into the trust, but it's a slow build process, and when there's a rupture of trust, a lot of those marbles are lost, and it's a slow process to build it back up. And I think that that also speaks to like each time that we continue to agree to show up because authenticity means discomfort, it means showing up and feeling our real feelings, not just people pleasing and trying to be like it's all good, no problem. Um, but then continually showing, like, here's my dark nasties, not all at once, because that's that's you know, trauma overdompt, you know, like not a good thing. Um, but bit by bit to build this thing over time, like that that's how we show each other, oh, he's not gonna run away. Oh, okay, we can handle this, you know. All right, cool. You know, I can do this again. And and building this with you also then allowed me to do it with other friends, right? And then with family members and now with partner, where it's like, oh, like I'm really building these relationships slowly, mindfully, and continuing to meet that person in vulnerability, and that's like a foundation of our relationships now, versus it's all good. So I'm imagining coming from this environment where it's so the opposite, where there is not trust, right? But it's like wild thing, and then coming back safety, which is like sobriety is like a you know, it's like a closing, like you're even making those gestures with your body, you know, it's like oh no, I'm gonna be really clear about what comes into this vessel. I'm gonna like hold my field. I'm creating a container for myself that's really holding me so that I can come back to me. But then how do I then interact with anything if this is all closed? You know, if the spell is up, then there's you can't let anything in. So you don't want to just let anything in because we know what that looks like, but we we want to be like, okay, how can I make mindful choices from this centered place to see, oh, this person. Can match that energy, which is why like those little messages at the first are like a good to be like, oh, that person would align with me. When you strong filter on, like, and we we've talked about this before. When you have a strong filter, it filters a lot of stuff out. So not gonna suddenly then feel like, man, I have 32 intimate friends, you know, like it's really great. It's so easy, you know. It's like we have each other, you know, and then I like I built this here with one or two other people, you know, but it's like small and it's a concentric circle that like grows outward from you from tension first. And if you notice, okay, I'm I'm disrupting this central piece thing, or like getting caught in an old pattern, is like that's when it's like, okay, I need to check in and see is this serving me? Do I need to change something with myself, or do I need to change something with that relationship? Um and then there's the relationships that will meet you there and be like, oh yeah, okay, I hear you. Let's upgrade this container together. And there's the one like thank you for the time we had together and let's go on the journey.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, so I guess there's also the other end, is there's some of us who won't give any marbles, right? Like we're holding all of our trust marbles. Right. But then there's the others who take the whole jar and pour it into yours right away. Right, and like there's no cost of admission to get to me. So I think there's two the two spectrums there.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Mm-hmm. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Yeah. Um but if you want to build intimacy, like you're saying, is one little marble at a time. Let me trust him with this. Now let me trust him with that. Now let me share this. Let me see how see how he he she they he she they responds. You know, like you said, the response, you can tell in the response right away how it's going to be. Um Yeah, I think I I I I think that's important to to know if you, you know, because some of you here's the thing is if you had anxious attachment, if you had, you know, whatever trauma you had before myth, you probably were taking myth to to to calm it, to voice it, to numb it, right? It's still going to be waiting for you after myth. Um, and so if you didn't know about like for me, I didn't have boundaries before meth, certainly not during. And then after I didn't, I still was that anxious, attachment, needy, like, you know, just always getting my feelings hurt, always looking for someone to love me, man, after myth. Um, I just I I I just didn't have any example until you. Like there there's there's no examples out there for how for doing this, for building this, for being committed to it, to to to to not settling for a a container or friendship that doesn't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Right? Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

So great, good. This is good. I think that this is a really a a good um introduction. You know, we've we've had intimacy coaches on on the show, um, and we we've talked about intimacy there. But I wanted the I wanted you as a listener to kind of see in real life how the process can can be. Now I am not the I am not the you know realized guru of all this either, but I do know that practicing intimacy with somebody has really helped me on the other end and in my sexual reintegration. Because number one is I'm not clingy and needy, and I don't give myself away so fast now. Because like with the marbles that you mentioned, you that's what we practiced, and that's what I'm able to do now. That's very helpful. Um, I don't get attached right away. I don't, you know, I just there's so many, there's so many parts that are better now for me that have helped me establish a a happy sex life that that came from my friendship with you. And so I really wanted people to see that.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

I would I'm gonna emphasize one more time because I think this one is really important, uh, is just pacing, yeah, going slow. Yes. Because like that's that's the way that we did this. That's the way that I've seen in my own personal experience that allows the intimacy to grow because it's it has to be over the course of time to know that it's that it is solid, that it is stable, that it's something you can rely on. If it's feels amazing really fast, that's actually kind of a red flag. You know, it's like it's like yeah, too much too fast is like this like spike of of internal energy, and that's not sustainable, right? It's like we want this slow thing where we're building the the energy over time, and then we can sustain it that way. But if it just goes like this, it's gonna drop again. So that's right. Noticing this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Yeah. And you've you're in a partnership now, and you two have gone really slowly, you know, but intentionally slow and methodically, you know, and and you really have again modeled for me what to how to build an intimate but a long-term sustainable romantic relationship as well. And I'd like to think that our friendship informed your partnership. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Absolutely, absolutely. That's what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

It's like practicing with you and then practicing with these other friends, and then practicing with siblings, and then parents, and like working way outward, and people I work with, and you know, those that like concentric circle of practice is how I've been able to make recovery strides of people and be able to actually have healthy boundaries and communicate my real feelings and needs. Then slowly over the course of time, then I open back to the possibility of relationship and intimacy with somebody that that had to go real slow. It's like we were talking about with like sobriety and like closing off. Like, I went celibate for over a year, you know, and I was like, I'm not gonna touch that, you know. I'm just gonna like this is what I'm holding and um for myself, and then being like, I'm gonna introduce somebody to this field after cultivating it so strongly for that much. I was like, well, it's gotta be really mindful because I don't want to just spike the thing again. As you you were there and you heard it, you watched it happen, you know. But I was able to catch it because I was like, oh, this is so dissonant from the field that I've been cultivating that it's like this is not it, you know. So I need yeah, then I was able to be like, okay, get that filter back up.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

Yes, yeah. Yeah, and you're right. In sexual inter integration too, and in building intimacy, intimate relationships is like you've been saying, is the the boundaries is a metrics of what it is I'm looking for, what it is I'll tolerate, what it is I won't tolerate, you know, these are the things that I need. Um, and I'm gonna set all of this up like in a container. You know, I'm gonna set all this up in a filtered container. And look, it's gonna save you so much. Time, heartbreak, energy, repeating patterns is look, this man comes along, he doesn't fit, he's not, he doesn't come through the filter. He doesn't he doesn't fit in this container. And I'm gonna know that right away. I'm gonna I'm gonna come up with ways to know. I mean, not maybe not the first encounter, but very quickly I'm going to know. And sometimes the first encounter.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

But you have to you have to have the metrics available. That's what some of us is we're we're floating around thinking anybody who wants me gets me. Or nobody gets me. One or the other. So well, I hope this helps. I hope this helps um someone out there. Um it was nice to go down memory lane and with us. Did I miss anything?

SPEAKER_03 52:43

Um, it's like our full relationship, but you know, it's all I think I think it's you know, it's like there's this dynamic that of like the podcast, which can be a little bit more like structured, and then our relationship, there's more flow, you know. So one part where I'm like, it's not just like this, to, you know, but it it so but I I love our relationship in this dynamic because it's not just like we create this solid structure and then it's just like this. You know, it's it's like we're doing it organically together as a dialogue, right? And it's like this this thing felt weird, or you know, like butting up against my boundary now, and like so yeah, acknowledging the living entity that is the relationship as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

That's right. That's right. Yeah, I love that. Thank you, thank you. And I love you.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Thank you. I love you too.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Took me a while to be able to say that. Um, but I'm glad, I'm glad to say it. Um, okay, guys, um, I hope you enjoy this. If you have something you want to add, um, if you have thoughts, if you have your own experience with intimacy, I would love to hear about that. You can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify or you can just DM me on any social media platform. I am everywhere. Um, do you want us to share if you you I don't know if you want us to share your business platform, your yoga um social media handles, we can do that.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

If people are interested, they're welcome to look. Uh I it's I focus on mostly therapeutic yoga, so it's um slower. And for folks who are uh often for folks who have injury or surgery history or conditions or discomforts in their bodies, so um it doesn't always appeal to everybody, but it is a beautiful practice. So if anybody wants to come play with me, I do teach yoga uh in Asheville area and online.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

So yeah, sorry, say it out loud where I am. Yes, they're gonna hunt you.

SPEAKER_03 54:44

They're gonna I was gonna tell them, I'm gonna tell them where my where to find me. Right, okay. I just wanted to make it awkward first. Right. But yeah, it's tuckeryoga.com or uh Tucker underscore yoga on Instagram. Oh, I think I changed it. I changed it to three here now. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:07

Well, we'll put the links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

All right, yeah. Well, probably you can edit that last part.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Okay. All right, go play with Tucker. Three. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you, Dallas. I love you. Okay. Love you. Bye guys.