The AfterMeth: Gay Men Recovering from Crystal Methamphetamine and Chemsex Addiction

EP 3:19 The Chemstories Podcast with Patrice and Bradley

• Dallas Bragg • Season 3 • Episode 19

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Supplementary Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/chemstories

In this episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, Dallas Bragg welcomes Patrice St-Amour and Bradley Hampton-Wallis, the research coordinator and Toronto host respectively of Chemstories — a bilingual podcast series produced out of the University of Montreal's School of Public Health that gives gay, bisexual, queer men, as well as trans and non-binary people a platform to tell their chemsex stories in their own voices. Patrice brings both lived experience and academic grounding in sexology to his role coordinating the project, while Bradley draws on his background as a social work researcher and his own history with drug use to create deeply human, non-judgmental space for conversation. Together, the three hosts explore the origins and evolution of Chemstories, its community-based participatory methodology, and what it means to center the voices of those with lived experience rather than filtering their stories through a clinical or academic lens.

The conversation digs into the transformative power of storytelling as a tool for dismantling shame — both for those who share their stories and those who hear them. Dallas and his guests discuss the internal hierarchies and stigma that persist even within the gay community around drug use, the nuanced distinction between problematic and non-problematic chemsex, and how hearing someone else's story can unlock self-compassion in men who have long vilified their own pasts. The episode also explores sober sex, sexual reintegration, and the surprising universality of the chemsex experience across borders, cultures, and genders. With a combined library of nearly 60 episodes and 25+ hours of content between the French (Chemstory) and English (Chemstories) versions, listeners are pointed toward a rich, diverse resource — and encouraged to consider how curiosity, community, and radical honesty continue to be among the most powerful forces in recovery.

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SPEAKER_03

Do it. And when we judge it, whose voice is that? Like when I'm judging something, when I'm judging myself, if I ask myself, why why do I care about this behavior? Why do I care about this behavior? I start to then I start to think, oh, it's actually not I actually don't care about this behavior. It's some it's something else in my head that's been rolling around for so long that it's taken up residency. And I have claimed it as my own thought when it's actually not my own thought.

SPEAKER_00

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. You know, if you've listened to this podcast, you understand that I have attempted to expand my own understanding of chemsex. And what you could do, you can tell if by the show intro, listen to season one, listen to season two, and then listen to season three. You can see how my how I've expanded and how that I've become more knowledgeable. Um and I've more have a robust, more robust understanding. So, but I've not arrived in any way, shape, or form, but I'm enjoying this expansion. So I remember the very first episode I did on harm reduction, and it caused a lot of controversy. And I received feedback that I was killing people and I was causing people to use drugs and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I don't believe that. Um, but what I do believe is that I'm really tired of seeing men living under the weight of stigma, shame, judgment. There's enough of that in the heteronormative world that we live in, and it's compounded inside our quote unquote community. So if you can bring some dignity, if I can, dignity to those who are still using, and if I can help advance their safety and livelihood, I'm going to do it. And the podcast is doing that. So if you've been listening, we've had people on who identify as someone who uses drugs. We've had people on who are in the harm reduction field. And guess what? It's all harm reduction. That's a big lesson that I learned last season. So I'm actually currently working to be a sexologist, and what I have found in the program is that I have a lot of bias. And I have bias in my shadow that I didn't even know was there. And so I believe that some of that still exists when I come across men who are still using because chemsex is complicated, it's layered, it's understudied. Um, the men I have on my show today, though, are diving into this with curiosity, without stigma, without shame, and I believe helping so many men who are either using or in recovery feel seen and feel heard. So if you look at my social media, you'll know that I am marketing to a certain segment of men. These men have been negatively affected by chemsex. Their stories match my story. That's my business and my mission is to help these men in many ways. I'm actually not here to help them stop using or stop engaging in chemsex. I'm helping them build a life so expanded and so healed and so great that they don't need to return to something that for them was a maladaptive coping. But that does not mean that my story, your story, the people who follow me, that does not mean that our story is everyone's story. So if you're easily triggered by stories of chem sex, or you're in early recovery and you feel that listening to this conversation is not it it if you feel that listening to conversation that is not overtly negative about chem sex, if that all triggers you, do not listen to this episode. Just push pause. There's plenty of other episodes to listen to. Um, so without further ado, I'm going to introduce my hosts. Patrice Hehem is the research coordinator at Collab, directed by Professor Olivier, Olivier Ferlat. Sorry. Situated within this way within the School of Public Health of the University of Montreal. He currently coordinates Chem Stories. That's a podcast series in both English and French that provides a platform for gay, bisexual, queer, and non-binary men to share their perspectives on PP slash chemsex. Or H H if you are in the UK. Based in Montreal, he holds a bachelor's degree in sexology from the University of Quebec in Montreal and brings his lived experience to his professional work. Bradley Hampton Wallace, he him, is the Toronto, Toronto host of Chem Stories. Very good host, by the way, and a master of social work candidate at the University of Victoria, researching practices of care among men who engage in consensual slam sex. His work draws on his own lived experience as a person who uses drugs and is grounded in a queer ethics of care, attending to how care and knowledge take shape through lived experience and relationships within drug using community. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05

A lot of intro.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

There's a lot of host in the room as well.

SPEAKER_00

Host heavy. Host heavy today. Well, I just want to uh let's just start out, I think, by maybe just maybe if you could both tell us why you're interested in chem sex. Maybe if you uh if you have lived experience, if you want to talk about that, that might be interesting too. Do you want to go first, Bradley?

SPEAKER_05

Sure, I was just nodding perpetrators to go first, but I'll go first.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Why I'm interested in it. Well, I grew up around drugs and I have always been around drugs, but it was um it it I mean it's been um a problem, but it's never been a problem. Um in a way that uh I've yeah, it's never been it's never been framed as a problem. The problem for me when growing up around drugs was when I would go out out of my home with my mom and see what people thought or said about it. That's which is basically the stigma that you're talking about. Uh because my mom um used uh because she enjoyed it. Um and I we would talk about it and stuff. And so my interest has always been there because I love my mom and I still do, even though she's not with us anymore. Um and when I went back to school as a mature student, I uh was gonna do some research and I was you know trying to I had these ideas in place. One was to do this project with some nuns, and my advisor said, nuns. And I was like, Yeah, really. And then uh was like, so what's your what's your location? Like, what's your relation with the nuns? And I was like, other than maybe a costume at Halloween, I don't really have a relation with nuns. And she's like, Yeah, so we need to talk about something that you know. And I was like, Oh, drugs. And she was like, Oh, I was gonna give you two weeks to come up with an idea. And I was like, Oh no, for sure it's drugs. Um and so from there, I just was like, Well, what do I know? I know uh how people in the community use because they I've used with them or I've seen them use, and so I just thought this is this is where my interest is. And then I started looking at some of the research, uh, and some of it is great. It's all great because I think people care. I choose to believe that at the at the center of the research is is caring about community and well-being. Um, but some of I didn't see myself in all the research. And so then I started to want I I wanted to do research or be involved in projects that um uh I was in, because my uh as we say in the podcast, one of my favorite people is Tony or was Tony Morrison, and and she would say, if you don't if you're if you don't see yourself in something, then write your story. And so this is this is how we're writing it.

SPEAKER_00

I love that. Thank you. Thank you. And I wanna I want to just pause and say, problematic was a word I think that you used. And I think that I try to use that when I'm talking about chem sex or drug use, problematic drug use. That's that's the that is the demographic that I deal with. You know, and so I I just want to make that known in terms of when people look at my social media or my my material, they think that I'm this dogmatic, you know, this dogmatic person against all drug use. But it's we have to make that distinction, problematic or negatively affected your life, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um how about you, Patrice? Yeah, well, I I'm very glad that chemsex is a part of my life uh as in my work now. Uh I started with personal experience at the turn of the years 2000. I was an early adopter. Uh I was living in the United States then. And so I had my first experiences in Provincetown. And um fancy. And but uh when I came back to Montreal, it was not here anymore because the drug didn't travel the border yet. So I was going uh back to the United States to have drugs and then coming back to Montreal. Then drug followed, and at the turn of 2010, it happened in Montreal. And so that was when I felt it was becoming a slippery slope for me. So I decided to stop using and I succeeded. So the last time I used was 2012. And then I started asking myself, why did I enjoy it that much? And why was it a slippery slope for me? So I just decided to study sexology because I felt like it was one of the best ways to understand myself and understand this specific type of uh sexualized drug use. And so uh chemsex came back into my life as part of my work. So I started coordinating this project in 2023, that's three years ago. And uh I'm so glad that I can represent the community of the people who practice chemsex and bring this their story to the forefront. And I participated myself in the project before even starting to coordinate it. So that's the way I entered in the project was as a participant. When the project was kind of a its pilot phase, and when there was an opening for a full-time employee, I was there and I already experienced it. So I uh I'm very glad that Buddy VFL chose me to coordinate the project. And so I've been um the the captain of this project for the last three years.

SPEAKER_03

Literally the captain.

SPEAKER_00

Captain.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I became literally the captain. We'll tell you about that later.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I do love um I I wish I would have been able to listen to more episodes. I'll I'll continue to listen. But I do love the beginning when you're saying, you know, leave your uh now I'm losing it what you say, but it's like, uh oh, come with an open heart and an open mind, leave leave your judgment behind and this this kind of things. We're we're getting ready for a flight, a journey, right? Um I love I really love that. A trip every journey is a trip, yeah. Yeah. So so that's kind of your background. So where did Chem Stories, the podcast, come from, if you don't mind? How do I think that's it? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

It's it started in 2020, precisely, where Olivier Ferlat uh wanted he realized he's a professor at the School of Public Health, like we said, and he he realized that we didn't get to hear the people who are using chemsex when there was a discussion about it in the let's say academic world or scientific world, or even in some of the community work. Sometimes it was the mostly the professionals who were talking about it and giving their opinion, and because the voices were not there. And it was the beginning of the podcast. Olivier wondered how would that be if the people would produce their own podcast and we would train them to produce a podcast, to tell their story, and then we would publish them. So the idea was really truly to give some input on how to make a podcast to the people who wanted to share their chem sex experience. And it worked because we were in the pandemic, remember in 2020. Uh, so there was some trainings online. People were coming up to five people at a time. And we I was one of that uh little teams, and so we had three workshops, and then we would be able to produce our own podcast. So that worked quite well, even though there was already some dropouts, because it it's a lot of work to produce your own podcast when you're home alone. Some people never did anything like that in their lives, so it was kind of a little bit too much work, and some people just didn't think they they could do it, especially the people who would, let's say, relapse in the meantime or don't trust the their point of view enough, or uh yeah. So basically, when the pandemic ended, that's where I came in in 2023, and so I could also give individual um trainings and I could also help the people with the editing of the podcast, and some people also with the recording. So I could really provide personal um um accompaniment, Bradley.

SPEAKER_03

I need you for that word, um to help the person to um well, you just helped everyone, like you were the you you would direct and you would support people through the whole process.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly. And when it came to make the English version of the podcast, because I may not have said it, but it was the French version that we started with. For the English version, we brought a committee of people together with lived and living experience, and we said, okay, how can we improve the project? And they suggested that we make panels. So instead of being individual stories, like it was in French, one person, one podcast, then we would have uh individuals talking together and sharing their stories. And that's where uh Bradley came in as a host for Toronto Podcasts. But we also have host in Montreal, Eric, and we have a host in Halifax, Andrew, uh, who put people together from their network, and uh they also suggested some themes that would be um what the main subjects would turn around, even though people would share personal information. There was also um a central team that the the podcast would cover. And that's how Brand Lee came along with us as the host for Toronto. So maybe you want to talk a little bit about your experience.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I was on the editorial committee. It sounds fancy, but I think we're called the editorial committee, aren't we? It sounds very Devil Ware's Prada, being on the editorial committee, um which I'm fine with. Um and we met and we're figuring out ways to um to move forward with the project in a way that was sort of um in a community-based collaborative sort of approach. And I think uh one of the things that I think is so great about the project is that the the methodology of podcast actually it eliminates um it eliminates uh a layer of interpretation so that the listener is not listening to someone else's interpretation of data, I'm listening to the data. And I get to piece things together and interpret things and listen to conversations and then participate, which is why I think um I've listened to episodes a few times now, and they're they're different because it's like looking as it's like looking at raw data. If I could say the word raw a bit more, that would be great too, wouldn't it? Go ahead. Yeah. And so um I uh was on the on that committee, and then I guess because um I'm uh I don't know. Anyway, they asked me to be one of the if I if I would be a host for the Toronto episodes, and I was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the perfect host. Yeah, there's something you talk about a lot, it's meaning making in in the podcast. And I think Yeah, I do listen. Um because it because that's kind of what you're saying, is a podcast is this this this modality where the story is there and it's not interpreted by a researcher, and it's not interpreted, it's not lumped into a chart. Right? And then I get to create my own meaning of it. And I think I really, I really I never thought of it that way before, but it actually kind of has given me this new like little reju rejuvenated rejuvenation about my podcast, because I'm like, oh, that's what I'm doing too. Exactly. Yeah, yes, yeah, I love that. I I really do love that.

SPEAKER_03

That was a uh a professor I had at university that uh would phrase it as meaning making. Uh, Rhonda Hackett is her name. Um and she was actually a supervisor I had on the first uh research project I did, which was just about um what can be learned from men who engage in chemsex. Um and uh the idea of meaning making, I think, is what is one of the things that's so great about just being a human being is that um there like if we choose to not to think there is no coincidence, but we actually choose to get meaning or make meaning out of situations and then and then apply that to our lives and and how that impacts us or what does that mean. It just it just creates it just it's about being curious about people and a way of humanizing everybody. Because drug users, I don't think, are always humanized.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. That's right. The curiosity is so important and and I think missing a lot. You know, we're we're closed, we're so closed in our own little world. And it, you know, if you're somebody listening and you are because I have a lot of um advocates listening or people in the industry that are you know on the the side of like what what I'm doing, I mean, what better way, and this is what I'm thinking too, is what better way to improve what you're doing by learning more from those who are using, who who are actually, you know, letting their voices be heard, studying what's happening, why why are they doing it? That kind of thing. Like, why not be open to that and and let it inform your practice is what I think.

SPEAKER_03

And listening to stories of people where it's not it's it's maybe adjacent or similar to your experience, but there are things in it that that there you have discomfort, right? And finding and hopefully being able to see yourself in that story somewhere a little bit too. I think I think that's where we create um or when we actually start to dismantle the stigma. Because I think that the other thing that the podcasts do, or that even podcast as methodology does, is that it it pushes back against like that sort of heteronormative oppression you're talking about and the stigma that it generates by we do that by telling stories. Yeah. Because the dominant narrative is is it's not everyone's experience, right? And so when we start telling these individual stories one at a time, um, we're actually kicking stigma to the curb.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Yes, a lot of it. If I may add also that the benefits are first for the person itself, the person who has the confidence to come forward and bring their story and share it with the world. I heard so many people who said it freed me from being that person that was unworthy. I feel like I gained so much more confidence in myself. And also the benefits are for the people who listen to the stories because they get to understand a little bit more. What some of the people who participated said, I mentioned some things in the podcast that I would never have in my private life because I had the impression became universal. You know what I mean? And then they had personal discussions about what they mentioned. But I'm sure that people who listen to the stories they can get a little piece of themselves, no matter if they're present users, past users, or if they never use in their life, uh, because we're all human, no matter what.

SPEAKER_03

And I think as gay men we do that. Gay men and queer men. We've been doing that since the earth cooled, right? Like it's why we all know who we are in the Golden Girls, because we the gender doesn't matter. Right? Like we just go and say I see myself. Like I think, yeah, sex in the city, obviously devil wears broader. But we see ourselves in these, um, in these um in other stories all the time. We do that. I think one of the privileges of of heterosexism is that you don't have to do that meaning making because you see your shit everywhere. Well, not me. I shouldn't swear. As a good Christian woman.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, okay, good. You can swear. We say all the words. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, you know, I was thinking about this, and actually um I had a little video. I send my

SPEAKER_02

clients this video every day um but i was talking about the the universal language and how how amazing it is like you talked to um jordan he was on the he was on the podcast and he mentioned this this thing of your your cockerings being getting you know getting worn or and and walked out the door like you're losing all your cockerings right and that little like that is so universal no matter where in the world you are I can say that to someone in Australia Hong Kong you know it's like it's all the same and it's like it it instantly brings you into this this community this universal understanding um the language and so I just think that's just it it it really is something that's uh amazing to think about yeah we we it's uh yeah I agree um yeah and so uh in this in this project um like you said the have you had what what has been the feedback of men uh do you keep up with them after you do has they have they said anything to you about what changes it might have made in in them after they've been on the podcast people that were in the podcast not literally since the participation process was a bit different in French and English in French because we had such a long-term engagement with the people seeing them a bunch of times we also made a wrap up discussion at the very end we call it the evaluation of the participation where we asked them all kinds of questions how did the project um change their lives and sometimes the podcast was not even published yet you know because it was so fresh after it's been ready to publish but all I can remember is that it brought so much joy and pride to the people who finally did it. Some people took up to a year and a half to arrive with the final podcast because they really needed to think it through some people relived some past experiences that was difficult for them. So it took a lot of time some people said I was finished with this project and then it came back to me six months later like I have to finish it you know what I mean because not all the people who showed up and said I want to participate did finish the project. In French we have like 40% uh abandonment rate so uh because we had this last meeting we could really measure the um what what worked what was best for them to make sure that they went through the whole process but also what which were the challenges and that's some of the things that we're writing about right now is that we want to share with other research teams or just whoever would would like to make uh make your own podcast kind of project because it could be brought to any topic really basically the this methodology. So we want to share what are the the things that made it easier for the people and what are the things that were the challenges and how to overcome it. But in English because the participation process was a little bit shorter it was one meeting prior to the recording then we would record and then uh do a little editing before the publishing and then we didn't see them back.

SPEAKER_03

So maybe Bradley you got some feedback from the people who participated um yeah and I think I think what we're talking about is what is the value of um of uh community-based participatory action research which is I think sort of the the big general boring research in our category which is what is the benefit of of doing research uh like when my supervisor said what's your connection to the nuns but what is the benefit of of um because in the research I'm doing now for school um I talk about being a drug user and my relationship with the the the people with the community and so there I knew them before the research project everyone that was in that that I spoke to every one of those groups or uh every one of those episodes I knew them before the podcast before we recorded um and I still know them now afterwards um I went to a uh uh play the other day with with one of them um and so they talk about um one of them's like b before their episode was up there was they were you know being a D and we're like well when's my episode gonna be up I'm sick of listening to everybody else but I think it is the um it's the it's the self-confidence the self-esteem and and the idea of worth I think for queer and gay people is um that when we tell our stories and and people connect to them there's this sense of worth I think that that settles in us that I think is really valuable. And I think that's mostly that's like a a really important thing that I see is this worth because when we take shame away from it um we can have way different conversations. When we stop pathologizing everything into the individual person is like I'm flawed therefore I do this as opposed to I do this because it makes this better or because when I'm at that nightclub and everyone else is doing MDMA I want to do it. Like whatever whatever those reasons are right and also we get to contextualize and talk about the world that we live in that often hates us or that does hate us as as men who have sex with men and also hates women and a whole bunch of other things. While the other guy is listening to it going oh my God that is so interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah right yeah yeah I do love the pain I listened to a panel and I really loved the way they were they really gelled I mean they were it was I mean you could tell they were very um cohesive you know and in and bouncing off each other um and I I found that to be I found that to be interesting. You could tell that they as as the interview went on it seemed like their energy went up too like they were really feeling that connection yeah they were a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03

I think I say in one of the podcasts that they um I think like in my brain they sort of sit in this place in my heart um as these really great memories of sitting around and talking with friends about shit that we don't normally talk about because um even among the in the gay community I think we create all these borders around drug use right like it's okay to do MDMA at a club but it's not okay to smoke meth from a bowlpipe right it's like the gear basically becomes what separates us and we draw all these lines based on how you are ingesting whatever drug you're ingesting.

SPEAKER_00

Because the idea of ingesting drugs for the gay community I mean scandal it's not a new idea right exactly um I I feel like you know when there's a lot of men in recovery and I think they're they're taught to do this but they they demonize they vilify their past you know anything about their chemsex uses terrible bad that was the the end of me that kind of thing I I I had an episode here um called the the gifts of chemsex and I had one of my clients on and we talked about that I if I hadn't had my chemsex experience I I wouldn't be anywhere near the person that I am today that the healing that I've received right the the self-awareness the falling away of like I I was walking around asleep for years I I came out and it was still I was still asleep you know and so that I think that hearing stories like this could help men in recovery also come to terms and accept that okay you know what I had good times it did serve me this was a part of my past let me stop judging it because the more I judge it the more I'm drawing myself to it and there's you know there's some of these men who don't understand why they're in a relapse a chronic relapse pattern they can't stop judging their past. They're just drawing themselves back to it.

SPEAKER_03

And when we judge it whose voice is that like when I'm judging something when I'm judging myself if I ask myself why why do I care about this behavior? Why do I care about this behavior? I start then I start to think well it's actually not I actually don't care about this behavior. It's some it's something else in my head that's been rolling around for so long that it's taken up residency and I have claimed it as my own thought when it's actually not my own thought.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah well thank you for that yeah it because and and that is if you're in recovery that is recovery is is clearing your head of those thoughts you know because those are the thoughts that probably got you into where you were before and so I I just think I just think opening up to these stories and listening to them could there's a lot of healing in that if we just drop the fear like oh no I'm I'm I'm signing off on gay yeah I'm a bad gay I'm I'm a supporting I'm signing off I'm you know and all that just get through that maybe also it's kind of a process because maybe it's a phase that you want to distance yourself as much as possible from the two experiences.

SPEAKER_02

So maybe it's kind of almost um protection that the person wants to put their vilify their past uh perhaps it will come back at some point I think we cannot force it either like it's something that will happen naturally and maybe hearing the stories of other people makes you realize well I was not that bad you know because I don't judge them why should I judge myself yeah yeah that is true um every time on social media when I divulge some deep dark secret something I did you know I get a slew of DMs saying thank you so much for saying that no like I have been holding this back all my life and and you you did the same thing and that makes me feel better now about myself.

SPEAKER_00

And you know I just I I tell everything like I I had kids at the time so I would rush my son to sleep so I could have men over or I would you know and then I got into I wrote bad checks on my daughter's account and you know just just all of this stuff that I did um that normally people wouldn't say in a in a platform like this but I I just keep saying it because you know it's just I just get all these DMs from around the world of men who are like I've been holding this inside and it's been eating away at me for so long. And so just hearing you I I got freed by you saying it. And so I just think again that could be something else of listening to these stories and hearing oh he did that too I'm not I'm not such a horrible bad person.

SPEAKER_03

I'm always surprised how many people uh when I when I've been talking to people and even looking for people when like a when I was in the recruiting part of my of this of the other study that I did for school um the number of people that use that are like oh um and I'll talk about the research I'm doing and be open about it because how can you how can you not be like what I'm rehearsing I mean I'm I'm researching like gay men's health they'll ask me what and so I and so I tell them what I'm doing. But the idea of people going oh I I s smoke met I smoke meth now but I don't slam because that's where I draw the line and then we have these interesting conversations but the number of people that use um drugs on some level or have used drugs I think it's greater than those who haven't yeah yes I would agree with that. Yeah with that yeah I know one guy who's or two three gay guys who have never used well two because I found out just that the one of the three did in the 90s.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah got it from a bouncer like I did. Yeah I'm still shocked by sometimes I get messages like what is crystal meth is that a problem in the gay community from a gay man yeah I'm just really really really shocked by that um this guy he texted he messaged me he says I don't know what you're talking about this is not a problem and all this kind of stuff and I was like okay I didn't answer him we came back a couple days later he has a partner he was like you know I asked my partner about this and it is a problem and well well because it's so many people keep it in secret you know yeah so that perhaps there are people in their surroundings that use and they wouldn't know because they wouldn't tell and because but not naming yeah right right exactly and because also that that's one of the things I realized in French is that when I was talking to people about what I was doing the project I was working on some people said okay well I I I practice chem sex but I would never come to your podcast because it's not problematic for me.

SPEAKER_02

I can use and I don't feel triggered by it. I don't feel like I lost control. So why would I come in a podcast to talk about something I don't have a problem with and that kind of was a bias at the beginning because you know we would have people who had very what we would call problematic drug use coming to the podcast. So it would give an ID that all the people would have the same path. But in French we diversified a little bit the the people participating and in English uh specifically with Bradley bringing a panel of three active drug users talk about their experience and how we don't want to pathologize it and we just want to talk about some of the benefits and talk openly about it, you know so I feel like it it really brought um it a three dimensional aspect to the drug use experience. And I feel like if we really want to understand what chemsex is what it's about we need to have those experiences on the at the table as well. Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah and that it's not new right yeah like chemsex isn't like they we I mean that term is relatively new but the idea of meth in the gay community is not new. We're doing I uh work with a bunch of um uh men living with HIV here in Toronto and one of we have a book club and one of the this fall fall where are we what month is it no this winter they wanted to read um a play instead of a book and so we read Boys in the Band. We read the original the original version and then the updated version with a foreword by Tony Kushner of course who we love um and they the original version was written in like 1968 or something so none of us were born of course um but they uh there's a mention of meth in it like a very casual drug use meth comment in it which the other day when I was I was like can we stop and look at this and they're like one of the guys that's in the reading said do you think they're referring to it like we refer to it and I'm like what do you mean like they're doing it so that they can clean the baseboards and not suck a dick? Like what is the like what is the thing we're talking about here? How is how would it be different? It's a gay man who's doing meth. So and I think that the even that is that instinct to to create these differences of my use is a bit better or mine isn't problematic therefore right like it creeps in all over the place around the good gay and the bad gay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah yes yeah yeah and there's even stigma with smokers against slammers a lot I I I see that in the comments in my social media and DMs you know well at least I'm not a you know whatever whatever the name they want to call them a junkie yeah yeah at least I'm not that I just smoke every once in a while or whatever you know and you know I just I'm just like I you know it just brings me it brings me to this memory I have of when I was in recovery and I was trying to get back into I was trying to create a gay circle gay commun a gay community a gay friend group it was so difficult. I was like no fucking wonder we have chem sex because it's it's just so easy to be accepted and to feel non-stigmatized and to be comfortable and you know I mean it was just like this is I don't want this you know I ended up my recovery team ended up being middle aged hippie women yeah so we would just you know we would go feeling of instant connection instant connection instant wouldn't want that curiosity curiosity and acceptance and no matter what you did you know it's I don't care what you're wearing I don't care if what you know it's just like it was this instant this bonding that we had um and that's that was how I got through my recovery because I was like I no wonder I this just makes me want to go right back you know you know what's interesting about that Dallas is that at the at the podcast launch here in Toronto there were women there we intentionally invited women because we're nothing without women and uh at the end one of them unprovoked I said you know jokingly you know any questions any comments as you know to the crowd that the women spoke up about how they saw themselves in it. And I was like shut the fuck up because I'm so used to it I never ever considered that it would be the other way around right that the golden girls would get value out of a gay situation right with always us getting that is but it's actually a two-way street and that um and one of them talked about oh because they know what it they know what sexual stigma is like they know that people trying to control your body is like they know they know all of these these these universal themes uh that are surrounded by you know heteronormative behavior right yeah because the good gay and the bad gay is very very set dresses a bit differently sometimes than the good woman and the bad woman yeah yeah no I I get messages probably every day from women um all across my social media platform saying everything you're saying applies to me I you're talking you're talking to a gay man but it applies to me and then there's a lot of women who will who will tell me that they smoke meth in the morning to get through raising the kids, cleaning the house being sexual for their husband running the kids around like they do it to make it through the day in their life and do everything that they're expected to do in this society.

SPEAKER_03

Isn't that too fascinating yeah well there's that all that stuff in the 50s around um yeah ads around prescribing women amphetamine so they could vacuum all afternoon in their pumps.

SPEAKER_00

Right mommy's little helper I think is what it's called yeah yeah I love mommy's little helpers yeah so I have to ask because I'm going to get the question um what would you say so I have uh treatment centers listening to this podcast I have you know a a lot of people that are that have seen the the darkness of people losing their their lives you know like with me I ended up homeless right um and and so and then there's the men who you can run across who have this long-term psychosis you know they there's a lot of men who will will set up I I give a free session to anybody who wants it and sometimes I have men who dial in and they're they're in this psychotic state where I you know I can't do anything with it. But what would you say to those people who have experienced that side and and feel this aggression this sadness this anger toward this project?

SPEAKER_02

Well first I just want to say they're represented in the project because like I said we talk about every topic so we have specifically one of the podcasts that Bradley is hosting that's called the wisdom flight where we get the perspective from someone who's been uh homeless and who lived what he calls the the skip living on the skip and um we get also someone with mental health issues and they're represented in the French version as well because you know they're part of the stories. It's not just people doing well with chem sex in the podcast. It's just that they're included they're not excluded like they would in other social settings Um so but truly uh like and the recovery is always there, it's always present, it's always one of the background themes because in almost every panel we have at least one person in recovery from chem sex experience and they want to share about it. Or spin through it. Yeah, exactly. And some people relapse and they're telling how they they they they came back, and it's really stories of resilience because we are resilient, and uh even the people who are active users are resilient because they're facing stigma all the time. So no matter if you stop or if you're still using, uh you will face it at some point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yes. I know there were the there was the one um episode, I think it was Hey Bryan or something, where he he was in recovery and he told his story. Um so so yes, you're you're offering a balanced who knew who knew you could offer a balanced picture of the subject. Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's what we're trying to do, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because it's not really about the drug, right? I think we we make the drug the problem. And when we do that, we don't have to talk about oppression. We don't have to talk about because um we would still we would still feel heteronormative oppression if the drug, if we didn't have the drug.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It would still be there, right? And so it isn't about the drug, it's about um how we one can vacuum and take care of the kids all day. And two, sometimes just about where's my little respite or where does sometimes it's not even about that. Sometimes the the trauma of being disliked and hated or being thrown out of your house, that and sex don't exist at the same time. They can be in the room at the same time, but they don't inform each other that sex is still its own wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you. And there's some discussions around in the uh in the panel with uh what's the user group called at the end, like the episodes thirteen or something, Patrice? What was that? Integrity? Integrity. Um two of those three um guys that were in that chat have been through um like big rehab into a building where they were like there for weeks and weeks and weeks. And and they talk about the value of that. And they talk about the value of abstinence as a as a practice that you can come in and out of rather than uh this um way of life about depriving and not asking themselves questions and blah blah blah. If that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it does. It does.

SPEAKER_02

Just to give you an idea of the the wide variety of experiences that are represented. We have 20 participants in the English version of the podcast alone. Okay. There are 32 episodes, and there's 15 hours of content. So there are a lot of stories that we get uh that we go through. And people don't have to listen to all of them, but maybe you listen to uh one of the the panel, then you want to get all out of it. So you want to listen to it in in total. Um, yeah. And in French, there are also 27 episodes, 27 participants, and more than 10 hours of content. So all together, it's like a lot of experiences.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Wide variety.

SPEAKER_00

Bradley, have you uh what have what have you uh uh gotten out of hosting? Have you has this surprised you in any way? Have you learned something? Has it changed you in any way?

SPEAKER_03

It's funny, in one of the episodes, um, I asked uh Olivier if because he's seen as a as a person that does chemsex research, if anyone everyone anyone like is like, hey, you wanna you wanna have sex because you're a chemsex researcher. And he's like, No, that doesn't happen. And it actually hasn't happened for me either, specifically in that because of that, it hasn't been the impetus for sex, because I who who needs impetus, you just have to never mind. But people have um recognized my voice or the net my name and then messaged me and said, Oh, I listened to the podcast. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then they they they have talked about um how meaningful it is to hear um more complex perspectives around our lives. Um and I think one of the the most meaningful things about the whole project is the sense of community, like even with Patrice, who I now think is my absolute sister, uh, because we've it feels like we've been working on this since the era cooled, but in a good way. Um But the the sense of community that um that has brought us together, even the the guys in the podcast um and the people that listen to it, um how brings people together. In the group that I do, or the group that I'm involved with here in Toronto about with the men who are living with HIV, we're actually going to do like a book club, but a podcast club where we listen to the podcast. And I'm not going to host any of those nights. It's going to be different guys from the group hosting um discussions around the different episodes of the podcast. And we're inviting um anybody, not just men living with, but it'll be led by men who have experience in similar to the one that they're leading.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Okay. And that's sort of. So instead of a instead of a book book club, it's a podcast club.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's just like how how we can um come together. Yeah, yeah. And using podcasts. Yeah. Now that I I I've never now that I know what I'm doing with my podcast, thanks to you. Um, I just yeah, I just find it so much more meaningful. You know, get your story out there. Um hopefully you listening, yeah, f f if you've listened to this episode, that you'll be that that this'll stimulate you to c contact me and want to tell your story, please. Just do I want more I want more stories um to on here. I really do, because that's what people really get. Those are the most watched episodes anyway. Um the ones that have actual stories, yeah. Um, especially those that have sexually reintegrated after that have found joy in sober sex and have gone through that whole journey. Um that's really what pe my listeners are hungry to hear.

SPEAKER_03

That's fascinating. Because I wonder what what is the messaging that we think we can't have joy in sober sex. I mean what is the messaging?

SPEAKER_00

I mean I get it all. I mean, it's there's men who there's there are men, this is very common, they've been meth-free for 10 years, 15 years, haven't had sex since. I know.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And they just have this belief that it's never going to be enjoyable again, and that it'll be it'll never be like that. It'll never be like Tina Sex. No, it won't. But it can be something different, it's something new. Like you have to be open, curious, curiosity.

SPEAKER_02

It's like it's like a new continent, you know, somehow. Perhaps the the landscape's gonna be different, perhaps the weather is gonna be different, yeah. The the feelings, but I mean, at the end, what we really look for is connection, right? In sex, no matter the the context. So uh I did find very good uh connection in sex with being sober for you've had sex for 15 years.

SPEAKER_03

You've had sex since 2012. Yes.

SPEAKER_04

I'm glad to hear it. Good for you. Yes, I can confirm. Yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03

I find that that is um yeah, that's very interesting. I'm gonna uh look for some of those episodes in your because I I've listened to your your your podcast before, and I like you have all of that when you talk about those um phases and those that um like a map, really. You've mapped out, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's fascinating, and I I have enjoyed it. Um but I'm gonna I'm gonna look because honestly, if I'm too I mean we're talking about bias, the ones where people are looking for that that recovery and and that that's that connection between sex, though I hate to say it, but I actually would not that wouldn't be my first choice to listen to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I will. Well one to listen to is called Fuck Like a Porn Star. Is the nine is the name of it. Um it's a gentleman who went into porn after in recovery. He liked sex so much sober that he quit his job and he's doing it full time. And the the process the process he went through to me is the model. It's the model for reintegrating and reprogramming and all the things he did, I think was it was just perfect. And I always suggest that episode to men who say, I'll never have sober sex, I'll never like sober sex. Like, look at this guy. He obviously likes it. I saw it. I've seen it.

SPEAKER_03

There's also an assumption that it that if you are a drug user, that all the sex you have is is not high, is is high, right? Right. And I I have I have sober sex quite often. I mean, it could always be more, but who's who doesn't want to have more sex all the time? Um and I was talking about that in with with the guys the other day about going on an actual date and then having sex after the date, and they were like, Well, when did you do drugs? And I said, I didn't do drugs. And they're like, Oh, you you you're going all hetero homonormative on us. And I was like, No. We still had dicks in our mouths and other places, so it's not, it's still, it's still, you know, all the things, all the requirements. But this idea that um that sex needs drugs, I think, is a really good conversation to have with people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Because there's a lot of stigma in that. There is, there is, and some of these guys have been convinced someone told them they were a sex addict. That'll chestnut. Yeah. And so they have this fear and this judgment around sex, period, because I'm a sex addict. And it just freezes them. They're frozen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. At the same time, as a sexologist, I just feel like some people may need a pause. Some people it may be short or long, but someone shouldn't ever feel pressured to have sex. You know what I mean? Uh, it should come from inside, not from outside. And our society has this tendency to want to push people to sex because that's the way you'll be happier, you know. So I feel like sometimes it no matter the reasons, if it's protection, or someone should also listen to their feelings, their inner voice. And perhaps it'll take longer. And I don't want, I wouldn't want someone to feel like they should or they have to have sex because it's not like eating, eating you need in order to stay alive. But sex is something that is bringing more to your life if you want to have it. But some people don't feel like having it at all. Uh in their so yeah, it's just there is a wide variety, and perhaps there these people are gonna come back to sex a little bit later.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yes. This is why you're so much nicer than I am. As a just as generally as a human being. That's so kind, but it's so true how how we um and especially as gay men, right? The whole idea of being a slut is very um it's like we we it's glorified, actually.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I feel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02

The more the better, the merrier, but it's sometimes I don't know, it hides other things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, vulnerable. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, gentlemen, what did I forget today? What did I leave out that you wish we'd have covered or talked about? Anything?

SPEAKER_02

I may just want to add a little bit something about the universality of the podcast. Because I'm sure Dallas, you might you might be uh realizing that by sharing our story in the world and because of the the now um electronic means that we have, like we can listen to it on the telephone, whatever we want to choose, uh, in our privacy, and we can listen to some content around the world. And it's so universal, the the chemsex experience that I'm sure that with the English version of our podcast, we're going to extend even more the reach that the stories can have. And we realize it now, it's less than the uh half our audience that in that's in Canada. So we have already an international audience, and that's so precious because we know that people will recognize themselves and people want to hear more in some places where they talk about chemsex even less. You know what I mean? So that um the experience is the same, but we have a little bit more um and we can talk about it. Some people have this liberty that they want to talk about it. So it's really a blessing that we have the opportunity to share our stories, our stories with the world. And so thank you, uh everyone, for listening uh to Dallas. And now you can listen to chemstories.ca. Yes, yes, as well.

SPEAKER_05

Just like on the show's channel.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, we'll definitely put the link to Kim Stories in the show notes. My my listeners, I 50% are US, 40% are UK, and then everyone else is is around spread out around the world. Yeah, and the the UK is I'm popular over there. Um so London would be a good place, I think, to expand this to and represent the H H guys. H and H I love it. Yeah, high and horny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I was gonna say hamburgers and what?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No. Oh well, and it's just been very nice, and I thank you. And Bradley, I just want to say too, you're hosting. You you you you create this total space of non-judgment. Like you just I think that you you have made this space that makes it so much easier for them to share and feel free to share. And I love how curious, curious you are. It's it's a it's it's also helped me, I think, analyze some of my what I want to do here with the podcast. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you. I I appreciate that coming from you. I didn't appreciate it coming from Patrice, because he says it all the time. No, he doesn't, I'm kidding. Of course I did. But I I do appreciate it coming from you. That means a lot. I think um it's not intentional. I was uh um, but I do love them. And I think that when that is there, there's it just informs my choices. Even which sometimes means pushing a bit harder, sometimes too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Love comes up.

SPEAKER_03

In that one episode, we we taught I think I pushed them a little bit around their understanding around the word love and getting being high on G. And they're like, no, it doesn't mean anything. And I'm like, girl, settle down. Maybe it does. You can only do that if you love someone and you have that and you have that safety. So thank you for saying that. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's true. You're welcome. Thank you. Well, thank you guys very much. And I hope you, if you listen to this episode, you enjoy it. Um, feel free to comment. You can comment on YouTube, you can comment on Spotify, or you can DM me. Um, we'll put uh contact information for Bradley and Patrice if they want them. Um, you can contact them directly if you like to as well. Yes. Okay, thank you very much. We'll see you all next week.

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Dr. Dallas Bragg

Host