EP 3:23 Dating App Hygiene in Chemsex Recovery with Mike

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/hygiene

In this episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, Dallas sits down with Michael Power, an addiction counselor with over 15 years of experience specializing in chemsex, sexual compulsive behaviors, trauma, and LGBTQ mental health. Mike brings both professional expertise and lived experience to the conversation — having navigated his own recovery from methamphetamine use across the United States and Australia before eventually finding his way into frontline addiction work in London, where he trained under David Stewartz, the man widely credited with coining the term "chemsex." Now based in London, Mike works at Innisfree, a sexual compulsivity disorder clinic in Marylebone, where he serves as a chemsex consultant and is launching an innovative weekend structured program for gay and bisexual men.

The conversation centers on what Mike calls "app hygiene" — the intentional, values-aligned approach to dating and hookup apps like Grindr during and after chemsex recovery. Mike and Dallas explore the two-stage model of recovery: first stabilization (removing the drugs and achieving some grounding), and then the more vulnerable, often overlooked work of sexual reintegration. Mike introduces the erotic desire cycle as a framework for rebuilding sober sexuality rooted in connection and safety, and walks through practical tools including masturbation as a relapse prevention strategy, navigating pornography mindfully, and how to thoughtfully design a recovery-informed app profile. Dallas also shares his own "App Map" — a decision-tree intervention that guides men through conscious pauses before opening an app — prompting a rich discussion about the prefrontal cortex, impulsivity, and why secrecy around app use is often its own red flag. Together, they make the case that getting back on the apps isn't a sign of failure — it just requires intention, accountability, and time.

Find Mike Power on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-power-0605a64a?utm_source=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=member_ios

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

It's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days. And really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

And how do we find that out?

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for being here. Appreciate you listening. We just we celebrated a milestone in the month of May. Over 50,000 downloads. Thank you very much. We are at over a thousand downloads a week right now. And just to give you an idea, when we first started, uh we were at probably one to two hundred downloads a week. So over two years now, a little over two years, we've we've really really increased, we've really grown. Really glad to see that. And thanks to you guys who have rated and reviewed the podcast and continue to download it. You're telling the algorithm that we like this. Um and so thank you so much for your support. Don't forget there's a supplemental study guide with every episode. The link will be in the show notes if you're interested. Just click on there if you want to take a deeper dive in what we're talking about. And what are we talking about? What we're talking about today is app hygiene. Um, and specifically with grinder, we'll probably touch on the other ones too. Um, but you know, if you watch my content, you're gonna hear me say a lot about block line block grinder, block access to grind. And I do believe in early chemsex recovery that is necessary. Um, I I don't think it, you know, I've had some clients come through the program who didn't block grinder from their phone. And I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying not have it on your phone. I'm saying put a block on your phone so that you cannot access it. There's a difference, right? Um, but but what do you do for the rest of your life? Do you do you do you stay grinderless? And in the world we're living in, it's moving more and more to geosocial dating apps as the way to meet people. We have clubs, clubs, and bars shutting down all over the place because people aren't meeting people in person anymore. So, what can we do with this? So, today we're going to talk to an expert about this, Michael Power. So, Mike is an addiction counselor with over 15 years of experience working with chemsex, sexual compulsive behaviors, trauma, and LGBTQ mental health. He has worked in LGBTQ plus rehabilitation centers in Thailand, supporting individuals navigating addiction, identity, intimacy, and recovery within a compassionate, trauma-informed environment. Mike is passionate about reducing stigma and encouraging honest, informed conversations around Crystal Matthews, sexuality, mental health, and recovery. Love the sound of all of that. Mike, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Dallas. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah. Well, we met on LinkedIn, and I was I have really enjoyed reading your articles that you've been posting. Um, really good stuff and centered around Chemsex. But specifically, I noticed you were talking about Grinder and Appygiene, and like basically saying, look, if you're going to be on it, here's how to do it. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with chemsex and how you got here?

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Yeah, yeah, okay. So um I'm Mike. Uh pleased, pleased to meet you. Um, my experience in chemsex, actually, I was doing meth because I don't think it was actually called chemsex um back in those days. It was just chem chem chem it was just methamphetamine. And I was actually using it in the United States and um Australia. Um I actually started my own journey of recovery in Los Angeles and went to treatment in in Australia, and then when I came back to London, the there was methadrone, um, which I don't believe is that big in the United States, but Crystal Meth was just starting to come onto the scene. Um, I wanted to save London from this evil addiction that was going around America and and and Australia, and was going to do this big campaign just to raise everybody's awareness. And of course, I never had the skills to do that. Um, but I did meet a wonderful guy who um coined the term chemsex, um, and his name is David Stewart, who's no longer with us, unfortunately. Um, and I did some training with him, then I started volunteering in an LGBT drug and alcohol service there, you know, just making teas, coffees, then I started doing assessments. Um honestly it was like a war zone because nobody really knew anything about Crystal Math or GHB about about back then. So people were really presented in quite chaotic states. However, for me, because I was looking for work, I just I'm actually okay at this. So but what I also realized was I actually, you know, it's very complex, and I was working with very vulnerable people. Um so then then went off and studied and went to university and studied to be an addiction counsellor, and that's kind of how I ended up where I am now, and that was 15 years ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

Wow, 15 years. 15 years so what have you seen as the biggest change over this 15 years?

SPEAKER_04 6:14

I I I think just education is is is is the biggest thing. People are more informed. Um, where where they never used to. It was a really new phenomenon because the apps were just kind of coming into play then. So it was like the perfect storm, really, and you know, intravenous use was never really a thing in the gay community, and it was becoming sexualized, and there was a massive rise, of course, in hepsi. Um PEP was around back in those days, but PrEP wasn't so HIV rates also skyrocketed. So I think probably what what I've seen mostly now is is that people are more informed um around how to take the drugs if they inject, they know how to inject safely. If they take GHB, they know how to dose safe second. I do believe that it's probably reducing a little bit in in severity from an addiction perspective, but I'll be quite honest with you, because I'm not working frontline anymore, you know, when I was frontline, I was really in the chaos. I I'm a little bit out of the loop in what's actually happening. And I I don't obviously don't engage in that world myself. Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

Yeah, the education, that's it's interesting to me when gay gay men will comment on my social media and say, What is this? Is there a meth problem? In the in the gay community, I'm like, where the fuck have you been? Like, how how can you not know? Because I will say, any mostly, I would say 99% of people that I meet, if you're a gay man, you know somebody who has had a meth problem or you've had one. Yeah. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like that. But I'm just really shocked by the people that don't understand it or don't know it, or still, still getting into it. These in 2026 still don't know what it is when the pipe's handed to them. Do you see that?

SPEAKER_04 8:16

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's also a sex problem, isn't it? You know, and and I think that's why the term um chem sex is good, because they become fused, they become fused together. It almost becomes one one one problem. And when we take the drugs out of the equation, and we do have to work on the psychosexual piece as well, which is really important. Hence why I write about the erotic desire cycle and um ap hygiene. It's more really that second stage of of treatment, you know, where you've kind of put the drugs aside, but but now you're reintegrating a healthy sober sexuality. That that's often where people slip up because it's frightening, right? When if I've used a drug to facilitate my sex for for many, many years, then re-engaging in sexual activity is incredibly frightening. So we have to kind of tippy toe into that, really.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yes, yes. So that's definitely number one question I get, number one hurdle that I see too. Um, and really kind of what's missing from my own program, which is why I'm working on my sexologist, my sexology certificate, is to try to get in there and help with this. Um, but you're right. So let's say you get away from the substance, you get some momentum, you've got some recovery going, and now I want to have sex. Right. Um, so let's talk about two things here. So you talked about an erotic desire cycle. Well just for a side note for those listening, where would I get how would I start that process?

SPEAKER_04 9:53

It's interesting because like like you, I was also stuck with that because my training is in addiction. And I'm very good at relapse prevention, triggers, ages, you know, all those skills. But but when it came to the second stage of of treatment, of how do I now reintegrate sex of my choosing, and that's the important bit, is is that I I actually went and did a psychosexual course myself. And it was when I was doing that course that I'd actually thought, actually, okay, I think I'm getting it. And I and I'll be honest with you, just also from my own personal experience of intimacy, I was kind of being a little bit experiential. It was like, I okay, so if we have the first the first bit of the erotic desire cycle is really just connection because connection equals safety. And it's really also important when we're talking about connection, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for a partner. It can actually just mean connection. So I'm being transparent. These are my needs. I'm not looking for a quick hookup. Um I I I'm I'm looking for longevity and and I quit. I I like to do this and I like to do that, and maybe actually if I don't feel safe, maybe we're not going to have sex right there and then. Or maybe actually it is the opposite. Maybe I want to meet for a coffee um first, and if we gel, then maybe we can meet again, but I'm not gonna have sex until I feel safe. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah. Yes. So do you coach coach men on how to have that conversation?

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Um, I I would, especially, especially in group work, I I do the erotic desire cycle. I mean, it's interesting because when you first start to explain it, most most people's go-to is, well, I don't want a boyfriend. Right. But but it's it's talking about boyfriends. This is really just about creating safety, because when I have safety, then then I can get erotic desire. Because if we think about meth and sex and what it was facilitating, even though it's very toxic, it was facilitating safety. It was facilitating confidence. It was facilitating me being able to talk and communicate and not to be scared just to have sex. When we take meth out of the equation, then we have to look at an alternative way of kind of finding safety. And unfortunately that takes a lot longer than just obviously putting a pipe in your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Right. Right. Meth is the ultimate shortcut to all of this, right? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think you know, I I see a lot of men they they're DMing me or I talk to them or they're on the or on social media and they'll say, It's been 10 years. I've been, you know, sober ten years, but I've never had sex. Or fifth fifteen years. I don't even you know, I don't even want to try to have sex. And they they don't believe that it's possible. Or they'll say, I'll never have Tina sex again, so why have sex?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Right. But what a way to live. To just accept that.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

Well that's what I mean about the fear part of it, that when we take the drugs out of the equation, it is a real fear. Yeah. You know, it's a fear. I don't know how to do this. Yeah. And actually, can I find a person that's gonna be patient enough with me so I can do this and understand my need for safety?

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think we need a chemsex surrogate partner program, like a rent in. Yeah. But right, but with chemsex, somebody that uh gets the assignment and and knows how to provide the space for the man to explore that.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

Yeah. Well what is in it's it's it's interesting here here in the UK, there was an article a few years back. I'm not sure it's even online and anymore. And it was about sex workers, S goods. Um one one article was really about the sex working community getting addicted to meth. Yes. Um, which which which which they are, it's quite big in in that community. And one article around a sex worker that found recovery and got sober, he was actually uh providing the service for other people that are engaged in recovery. So almost like a sex therapy book, kind of hands-on sex therapy. Personally, I thought it was a wonderful service.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so too. Yeah, I mean, I have a client who I've I've suggested go to rent men. I mean, you know, there's plenty of them that don't use here. I mean, there's some that say no P and P, no, no drugs or whatever. But you look, you get to there's no strings attached, there's no pressure. If you come, you come. If you get tired, you get hard. And that's the kind of environment you want. And then you they get to they're they're gonna do what you tell them to do, you know. So and he's like, Well, I don't want to pay for sex. And I was like, Well, you're actually paying for a recovery service. Right? You can see it that way.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

Yeah. I mean, it's really challenging because because here in the UK, um, you know, mef meth is really, really big uh amongst the sex workers. So Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Yeah, it is here too, but um okay. So this erotic desire cycle, we're talking about connection equals safety. And like you said, like I don't want a boyfriend. It's like when you mention the word intimacy, I get that a lot too. Well, I don't want to I don't want to uh uh be vanilla with a man. I don't want to be cuddly. Like intimacy doesn't it doesn't have to mean vanilla cuddles. Right?

SPEAKER_04 15:45

No, absolutely absolutely, because what what you're doing theoretically is creating the safety first, because that's where the connection comes in. You're you're creating the safety to enjoy whatever sexual experience you wish to have. You know, what whether whether that is vanilla or whether that's kink or BDSM, um it doesn't matter, but what you're doing is creating a safety. What's nice about the erotic desire cycle, my my experience of working with men when they come in recovery is that when when they do engage in sex, it's just really, really disappointing. Yeah. Um it's too quick, it's over in five minutes, and and actually that can that can create a trigger in itself. You know, what was the point? Why why did I spend an hour prepping for this like five-minute wonder? So so this idea that we're only capable of having one orgasm, and with with the eroting desire cycle, it's actually aimed at if you wish that you have more than one orgasm, because once we orgasm, then we're gonna release oxytocin. And if you hang around long enough and you don't jump out of the bed or the sling, wherever you are, uh and and kind of push yourself down and run out the door and say thank you, thank you very much. Right. And actually allow yourself to be a little bit vulnerable, then a secondary erotic desire can can occur. And then that creates a longevity to the experience, right? Because this is where I got stuck um when when trying to think how we can work through this in recovery from a sexual perspective, is that for a lot of people it was around the connection and the longevity, and actually the drug-induced intimacy, right? So, how do we recreate that? Yeah. Tyson is a wonderful chemical that gets released as long as we don't block it with shame. If we block it with shame, then it kind of blocks it. And that's when a person like post-orgasm, you're like, Thank you, running out the door. I call it the gate of shame, right? The gate of shame kicks in. And it's very unconscious, but it's that uncomfortability that when you've orgasmed, it's almost like coming down off a drug, isn't it? You hit reality. But if you can stay in the experience long enough and really utilize the oxytocin, then you can have a secondary or even a third erotic arousal if it's a good day, right? And then you can leave there thinking, actually, that was a really nice experience, right? It wasn't empty, it wasn't over in five minutes. I actually got connection. Um, I had great, great sex, and it doesn't matter if I'm not gonna see that person ever again. I'm leaning there thinking, you know what? That was good. And I'm not high, and it's now come down. I feel good about myself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Yeah, there's it's interesting that there's so much shame around sex anyway. You know, after the after your chemsex experience, it seems like a lot of men are thinking that sex at all is shameful. Do you find that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

Yeah, it's a difficult one, isn't it? I mean, what what are your thoughts on treatment though? Because you know, I I do I I think in a sense that, you know, you know, a lot of gay men go to a generic or very heteronormative treatment centre, it's it's it's almost like the therapist in there will demonize sex. Yes. And it's almost like now you have to be clean. The word clean, which I don't mind personally, but it's symbolic. I don't like it, yeah. It's it's symbolic. You have to remain clean and you have to have a boyfriend and you have to live like this because that's what recovery is all about. Right. Right. Um, where where really we should adopt a more sex-positive attitude and actually say, you know what, sex is wonderful, it's beautiful, and you can enjoy it. It's just important that you're not putting drugs in the equation and you're not using it in a compulsive nature. Right. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

No, I I I think we throw around because I a lot of the men that I that are in the program and that I talk to, they assume they're they have a sex addiction. You know, coming out of their chem sex addiction because they had all this sex, and you know, it and they'll say, like, oh my sex addiction is being triggered. When you phrase it and frame it as sex addiction, then yes, sex will be something that's bad. That's the enemy. That's that's something else I'm addicted to. And you're what's hypersexual to one is not to the other either.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

I think it's so individual.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

Yeah. And I think we have to look at the nature of of of chem sex as well. You know, in my experience, there's two sides of the camp. Those those that would use meth to facilitate the sex, and there's those that would use meth just get wasted, right? Yeah. Um but regardless of why they're using it, because of the way meth works, it works, it creates hyper, hyper sexuality in in most people. I almost kind of imagine the drug and the sex, like two copper wires that are being fused, fused together. Um and then we have to kind of untangle that. So we're gonna put the drugs out of the equation, they just have to go, right? But the sex, it's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days, and really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi-man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

And how do we find that out?

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Through processing, really. I I I think I think really from a treatment perspective, you know, as you said when you opened up um the the the session, I I agree with you 100%, by the way. In the early days, it's just if it's gonna be a trigger and you can avoid it, just avoid it. Yeah, right. Yep. Don't put it there. You know, let's just stabilize. Often I'll when I talk to my my clients, I want to understand why why is this happening? Yeah, I was like, well listen, right? If we here in London we have big tower blocks and I say, you know one of the tower blocks here in London, if that was kind of leaning over about to collapse, we probably need to stabilize it first, right? Right. So it's not going to collapse.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

M metaphorically, what I'm saying is like we need to stabilize. Let's get the nuts and bolts sorted. Let's get the drugs out of the equation. And then let's start refurbishing the flaws bit by bit. But we can't refurbish the flaws until it's totally stable. So what what I'm trying to say really, Dallas, is that first first section of treatment is stabilization. Second part of treatment is answering all those questions. Who am I now? What am I doing? What is my meaning? What is my purpose in this life? Who am I as a sexual being? What is it that I want? And how do I do that? And that's that's where a therapist would come come in hand, or peers, or you know, a program of some sort, a recovery program, you know, really finding yourself. But it's really a tippy-toe process, isn't it? You're not going to be diving in the deep end before you can even swim.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Right. Yeah. It is a tippy-toe. I I kind of I mean it's almost like walking through a minefield, it feels like, sometimes. Because you you kind of don't know what is going to trigger you. You have to be very cautious about let me try the little bit of this, let me try the little bit of that, let me do, you know, let me let me fantasize about that. Let me watch, you know, let me and what's your your take on pornography then early on?

SPEAKER_04 23:37

It's a difficult one, isn't it? Um for me, because you know, when when I'm working with clients, I I will go through masturbation. I think masturbation is very important in the process. But masturbation is a relapse invention tool. Not not necessarily masturbation for the luxury of masturbation. It's more about kind of keeping the hormones to to a line of so they're not acting as as a trigger. But then how how do we masturbate? What do we masturbate to? What fantasy do we masturbate? And I in my experience often the guys I work with will their their their fantasy will go to um historical chemsex experiences, um, and they really struggle with that. So with porn, if it needs to be done, then use it, but then it's really important that you're not kind of watching the same type of pornography that you would have been watching in a chemsex party, for instance. And there is a phenomenon out there, even with people in recovery, that is almost this more morbid curiosity that they will go to chemsex porn or or slamming porn, and that's incredibly dangerous because you pretty much relapse at that stage, right? So to answer your question without going around the mountains is preferably no, no porn, but that's a tug-of-war, as you can imagine. But if you do use it, make sure it's not the same type of porn that you're using when you were using chemsex, use it for what you need it for, get the job done and close it, basically. That's straightforward.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah, yeah. I think it can be used too for a good way to explore what what is in your erotic template now to pursue. Like I I use the example of fisting all the time, but so let's say I was not into fisting before myth, I got into it uh during chemsex, and now I want to see is fisting something I want to pursue? Right. So I think if you if you're masturbating or wanking as you c as you guys call it, wanking, masturbating, jerking off, whatever. If you're masturbating and you masturbate to a um a porn of fisting or a sober scenario in your mind of fisting, and it takes keeps taking you back to chemsex urges, then that's probably something you you don't want to it keep reinforcing that, you want to stay away from that. Is that right?

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Um yes, yes, preferably. I mean, I I always used to give the example because you know, with sex and food, it's very similar. They're both very primal. You you you will know when you need to release the same way as you know when you need to eat, right? Yeah, okay. Um so it's really about recognizing my urge because sex in itself can can get fused into a self-soothing mechanism, as can pornography, compulsive pornography. We just have to be mindful of what I call the Russian doll syndrome. You know the Russian dolls, when you take one out, it's like take one out and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I might not be doing cameras, but I'm spending like five hours watching porn every night. That that that that's a problem. Yeah. If if I'm if I'm using the porn for what it is, uh, you know, I just need a release, I need a sexual release, I need to get to orgasm. Bum, done.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, so I want to get to the topic. I think this is a good information. So in this second stage, we're working on our erotic desire cycle, and then we're going to try to reintroduce apps. Right. So do you suggest when the app is reintroduced, we're talking about grinder or sniffies or any of the, I guess the websites too. Like, well, you want to you don't want to go to the other some of those bareback sites. Grinder or Sniffies, let's say. If you're would you reintroduce that into your recovery? Do you suggest having a a safety plan first? Like some some yeah, what do you do? How do you help your men do that?

SPEAKER_04 27:57

Yeah, so you know, when when I worked in treatment, when I worked in the residential treatment center, um everything I've just talked about was delivered as part of the treatments. And we go in the treatment, including masturbation as a relapse prevention to app hygiene. What what we would do in in treatments is is actually get them to design their their app? What profile name are you are you gonna use? What does your profile name say about you? What picture are you gonna use? What does your dialogue say? What does your dialogue say about you? Are you are you gonna say that you're sober? What are your safety mechanisms? Can you automatically block? What are you actually looking for? Again, you know, the second stage is like, what am I looking for? You know, because everybody's different. Some people say, you know what, Mike, you know, uh I'm I've done it, I'm exhausted with, you know, I've had so much sex, I I just want to date and hopefully I want to find a partner. Great, wonderful. And and some people say to me, you know what, Mike, you know, I love sex and I love kinky sex. I just don't want to be doing the drugs anymore. Well, I still want to enjoy the sex. Okay, let's explore that. How are you gonna do that? So that that will also be of what kind of app am I gonna go on? You know, if I'm looking to date, for instance, grind's probably not the best site, right? Maybe I prefer to go on Tinder. Yeah. Which is also a little bit safer, right, from a kind of here and now uh perspective. But if I'm looking to enjoy casual sex, maybe grinder is that. But but then you've got to be really hyper-vigilant, you've got to put it out there and make it very clear. You know, because obviously when people are high, they also don't read.

unknown 29:45

Right?

SPEAKER_04 29:45

Exactly. They're just looking at pictures. So you often see on Grindr people put re-profile with a little arrow down, re-read, re-read profile. But also kind of acknowledging the reasons that you're on there. You know, am I actually looking for sex right now? Or am I just lonely or board? Am I looking for validation? What are my reasons for being here? How am I feeling mentally and emotionally right now? Is this a safe place? Is it safe for me to be on here? What time of day am I using here? You know, it can be dangerous at all times of the day. However, after 10 p.m., for instance, it's a bit more dangerous, right? Or very early in the morning from four to six. So really pulling it to pieces, you know, of really kind of looking at that. In in the treatment centre, everybody basically, I mean, these are pretty much just designed with our pictures and um so when when they left treatment, they they knew exactly um what what their app was gonna look like when they decided to get to that stage. And the same with masturbation, when before they left treatment, they knew how often they're gonna masturbate, what fancy they're gonna masturbate to. Oh. Very, very structured, which which was nice with the treatment center because it was an LGBT treatment center and we had a chemsex track, was that's one of the benefits of not being in a generic heteronormative treatment center. That that we can really explore those sides to it without shaming it or demonizing it. Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so taking extra time to design what your app looks like. Maybe maybe one of your pictures can be you holding up a one of those key tea tags from the 12 steps. Clean and serene or something.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Well, I mean, personally, I mean, just just you know, it like also kind of making we don't have to make it so serious, right? It it can be well to be a little bit of an activist, you know, you know, sober as sexy with a little muscle on, right? Yeah, right. You know, sober as heart, no H, no POP. Um really really trying to make it a little bit fun, but with a very serious message there. Yeah. Yeah. But but but also really having that, but I think the important bit is does a person feel confident enough that if somebody sends them a message saying, five of us playing high and horny, do you want to join us? That they can just go block. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

How do you know if you're ready for that?

SPEAKER_04 32:28

I don't think you ever really know you're you're ready. I mean, personally, what I I would do is give a time frame. Um six months I I personally believe is preferable um to to allow you to stabilize from the drugs and defuse. Um but most people will really struggle, in my experience, to say, um six months. Um most people will go three months, and and that's that's a good start at least. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, there's probably some questions to ask yourself. You know, what are you know what are your true intentions? Right? Okay to get on there. Um that's uh do you give any other advice? So look at your profo profile name, maybe have some fun. What kind of pictures do you have? Um what is the what do you have to say down there in terms of the the description in your name? Do you have sober in it? Um yeah, anything else there that you guide the guys around in terms of app hygiene?

SPEAKER_04 33:34

I mean it's difficult because I'm I'm a therapist, so I would be um working with them and preferably what what I would be doing with them in that second stage of treatment is almost kind of mentoring through mentoring them through that experience. Right? So they're not just going solo um and going on the apps. It's something that can be discussed in the therapy room um as well. But not everybody is in therapy. So if you've got a coach, if you've got a sponsor, whoever whoever is your support system in your recovery, you utilize them. Don't don't do it solo and don't don't do it in shame either. Talk about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

You know, don't don't do it in secrecy. It needs to be spoken about, it needs to be normalized. It's okay, but be supportive in that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, no, I have clients that'll come and say, you know, they they'll come and they either use or they're shaken up and they're like, you know, well, I got back on grinder last night and this happened or that happened. And I'm like, why didn't why did you do that? And not tell and tell me. You know, and you didn't tell, you didn't tell your sponsor, you didn't tell your team, you didn't tell the other clients in our chat. Like, I don't it's not something like you're saying, it's not don't do it in secrecy, don't do it without telling anybody. Like, get get make it make sure that you're protected. Make sure there's there's a safe space and that people know to check in on you too, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:04

Yeah, absolutely. Because just the fact that that's happening is a little bit of a warning sign, isn't it? The fact that I'm feeling and it's right. Needing to do that in secrecy for whatever reason, whether that's shame or I feel like I'm gonna be judged, um, or or or criticize. It's a little bit of a red flag, and I need to stop pause and just ask myself why I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

That's right. That's right. Exactly right. Yeah, why did I do that? What am I really looking for? Um, so I wanted to show you a little model that I have and just get your advice on it. Um I didn't show you this. Gonna get your your real-time reaction here. Let me share it. Let me share it on the screen if you're watching, which by the way, you can watch this now on Apple iPod Apple Podcast too. Um okay, here we go. Okay. So this is a little mo little model that it's it looks it looks complicated, but it isn't. So before you open the app, so the phone is in your hand, pause. So am I on autopilot? Which means, you know, am I reacting to getting rejected? Did a guy ghost me? Am I feeling really lonely and desperate? Like, am I on autopilot? So don't open that. So once you try to open the app, wait 90 seconds, ask yourself, where am I? Why am I clicking on this app right now?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

So you name the need. Yeah, what am I seeking? Do I am I seeking connection? Do I need somebody to validate me because I'm feeling ugly? Am I trying to escape am I trying to escape but my world right now? Right? If those are the reasons, can I meet them another way? Right? So if I can meet them another way, yes, do it. Uh and then, but if I if I can't meet them another way, then continue. So that's when it goes into the conscious decision of checking in with yourself. You know, are you feeling empowered? Which would be clear, sober, and stable, or are you feeling desperate? Like, do is there a sense of urgency, like I gotta fuck right now? Or I got somebody somebody needs to tell me I have a big dick right now, right? Like, am I escaping? Am I measuring? Am I at risk? So if you're in a desperate state, if there's like an instant gratification type energy, stop, don't open the app or close the app, whatever it is, but just feel that for 90 seconds. And then if you do end up open it, do you have a time limit? Set a timer somewhere, or you know, you could be on Grinder for three hours before you know it. So, how long you want to be on it? Let's plan that ahead and have an act exit plan. So if I'm triggered, there's if I if I even click on a profile that has H or P and P or an emoji that means parting, if I even just click on it, I need to tell somebody right away, I just clicked on this profile, close, close the app. Um, and then if and then you can use it. What do you think about this?

SPEAKER_04 38:26

I really like it. I really like it. I I like the unconscious and I like the conscious because if if we think then about the nature of impulsivity, um it's usually because the prefrontal cortex is narrowed and I'm working on uh my emotional my emotional brain, which which means I don't have that ability to really think it through. So by having those kind of stop, pause, and breathe, and just ask yourself some simple questions, is it's a really, really good intervention. I like it a lot, Dallas.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Of course, you can. Send it to me. I will, I'll send it to you. Uh I send it to you. Um yeah, it's so that prefrontal cortex being offline, doesn't that happen too when you're in an aroused, sexually aroused state?

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Yeah, no, absolutely, and and craving, and craving as well. Um, anything. So with prefrontal cortex narrowing, it's obviously trauma, um, fear, anger, um, shame can actually do it as well. And and actually euphoric states, yeah, in that very fancy-based uh th thinking. And it's a danger zone because you can't think it through clearly by doing an exercise like that, when what you're doing is forcing your prefrontal cortex to switch back on. So bringing it back online.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yeah. Yeah. No, I like it.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

I like it a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Good. And thank you. And then I mean, breathing could help. Isn't that right? Like it breathing itself, like a breath work practice, bro, box breathing or something like that. Can't that at least give you a pause? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

Yeah. I saw I saw through in one of your videos actually, I think it was on LinkedIn, you did the the three stages of relapse, right? The emotional, mental, and and and physical. And I I use that my myself, and I usually put a little intervention for each one. Uh with the emotional part, you kind of are within your window of tolerance. Are you and you're free from the cortex, it's switched on, but you just want to keep it switched on. So I put the stop, stop exercise where you stop, pause, breathe, and just do a little reflection. And a nice way to do that reflection is just put the holts into the equation hungry, angry, learning, tired. And then for chemsense, of course, ask yourself that final question. Am I honey? Usually I'm hungry, angry, learning, tired, right? Um when we go into the mental part of that, which is pretty much a pre-filter cortex narrowing when we're in obsession, right? Then then we put your tip, which is temperature, intense exercise, and progressive muscle relaxation or breath work um in there. Um and then just a decisional balance. So just looking once my pre-filter cortex is switched back on, you know, what what are the positives and consequences? We use this for apps as well as kind of drug using as well, you know. What are the positives of me going on to this right now? Maybe I'm just like 30 days um in into my recovery and I'm downloading grinder, I probably need to stop, pause, and breathe into that. I just think I see what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Yeah, and if you're if you're listening and you think that's a a lot of work to do to just be on grinder, then maybe you're not ready to be on it. You know? Maybe you just start. You know, think about the why you're asking yourself, like, I don't want to do all that. Why do you want it? Why are you on it then? You know, what are you willing to do here? Because this that that grinder, even the grinder ding can be a trigger. It can put you in the mood. In the mode. This is highly the chemsex recovery is just so high so many layers and it's so complicated. And this the apps make it so much worse. So really be on it. And this is the same with sniffies too. Sniffies is even, you know, a little bit worse because the the profile pictures can be your penis or your asshole. You know, you can get you in the mood real fast to use. Um, and don't tell me you're looking for a boyfriend on sniffies, because I don't buy that whatsoever. I mean, it's possible. But that's probably not why you're on there, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Yeah. I don't think sniffers is very big in the UK. I actually only heard about sniffers myself from an American uh client. He says sniffers is really dangerous. And I said, Sniffers once what are sniffers? It's like and don't I heard about sniffers, but it's apparently quite big in the United States, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Yeah, well, I will say when I was in London, I looked it was active. In London. Okay. Yeah, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

I think I'm just getting odd, Dallas. I'm just getting old. I'm sorry. I better start educating myself before I get out of fashion. They'll be like, oh, that addiction therapist is historic.

SPEAKER_03 43:32

He doesn't know what that means. Right. No, I I looked when I traveled to Europe, I liked looking at I don't know. I I I wanted to see what it was like. So I I did open Grinder, I downloaded a Grinder and I made a profile. I I've actually I downloaded a grinder, I already have a profile. My picture, I I didn't realize my picture was on the profile. And this sounds arrogant, but it's not. But I started getting messages like, oh, you're down. uh you know, the chemsex guy or whatever. Um, and even got invited to a H H party, which was really strange. Um, but I I wanted to see, and I will say the the landscape of Grinder in London was actually everything that I had heard very heavily, heavily H H, heavily chemsex. Um, but I I did check out Sniffy's too. It wasn't as active, but it there was plenty going on there, at least. Um so yeah, it's interesting. Um yeah, I mean I just you know there's so many things to be cautious about here, guys, and you have to be intentional. Um intentional, thoughtful, and you and and it takes patience and it's going to take time. And like we said earlier, meth is a shortcut to these things. But the the alternative is you're gonna have to take the long way around to get this th to to get what you need, to get what you want. But you can get it.

SPEAKER_04 44:59

There's no You know what they say no pain, no gain, Dallas? That's right. Um and it's really not that painful it's it's just really just acknowledging your safety really your safety is is is the most important thing really and just really asking yourself that question am I safe?

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Am I safe? I love that. Yeah because you said connection equals safety and in the safe i if you feel safe when you're in that safe environment that's where you can you can explore you can take a little calculated risks you know you you can heal in that safe environment. Yeah well Mike what did I miss today? Is there something I didn't ask that you wish I had of or something you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Um no I think I think we covered a lot really just um do do a little shout out to where I work and our structured weekend programme. Oh yes yes yes that that is starting so what tell can you tell us about that? Yeah so I I work in London and I work in a private practice but I also work for an amazing clinic um called Innisfree um it's based in Mondyburn in central London. It is a sexual compulsivity disorder clinic I work there as a chemsen consultant and we're starting an amazing program um with which is a weekend structured program uh from a Friday night all the way through to Sunday it's basically just based on a community um outpatient program but on the weekends because that that's where the majority of the people really struggle. So we're basically filling the gaps from a Friday to Sunday and offering an intensive structured day program from 11am to 6 p.m it will be a combination of your traditional relapse prevention psychosexual and trauma informed treatments with with the aim being on connection it'll be all gay gay men or men who have sex with men in the program nice I love it I love it.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

So we'll put in the show notes a link to that if you can give us a link or information or something like that we'll put it in the show notes. If you send me some send me anything too about that I'll share it on my social media as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

Amazing such a needed service where you are such a needed service yeah well yeah I think it's gonna be amazing because I don't know what it's like in the United States but here in the UK with with meth and chemsex in in general a lot a lot of the funding goes into uh harm reduction yeah and and there's very little in the way of abstinence and there's something very powerful about having a specific chemsex program for gay bite or manual sex with men where you can create a safe space and they can share well I think it's the opposite here I think they're getting rid of harm reduction programs in the US I think there's a need for it but but there's also a need for abstinence right I mean we need to keep people alive until they can get absent basically that's right let's keep them alive until they get recovery. Right right yeah yeah I think so too I think so too okay well Michael thank you so much for Mike thanks for being here thank you appreciate it so much so nice to meet you by Dallas good luck with the thing and I really loved um the the app the app map I really like yeah I'll send that to you I'll send that to you please all right all right guys thank you guys see you next week bye