EP 3:33 Open Relationships 101 with Aidan

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/relationships

In this episode, Dallas Bragg welcomes Aidan Wharton — a New York-based sex and relationships writer, educator, and columnist specializing in open relationships — for a candid conversation exploring non-monogamy through the lens of gay men's recovery from chemsex. Dallas is upfront about his own evolving bias, shaped by painful past experiences with a broken open relationship, and uses the conversation to interrogate his assumptions alongside Aidan's eight years of lived experience with his husband. Aidan reframes open relationships not as a rejection of monogamy's values but as an expansion rooted in living fully — acknowledging that no single partner can be "everything," while emphasizing that healthy non-monogamy depends on the same foundation as any relationship: trust, respect, and communication. The two dig into jealousy as a teacher rather than a flaw, unpacking how underlying wounds like fear of exclusion (which Dallas names as a particularly resonant theme for gay men) surface disguised as jealousy in open dynamics.

The conversation turns sharply practical when Dallas shares a vivid, in-the-moment story of nearly hooking up with a thruple he suspected was using — walking listeners through the subtle behavioral cues of active meth use (delayed responses, jitteriness, lowered standards, lack of due diligence) as both a cautionary tale and harm-reduction education. Aidan and Dallas then offer concrete guidance for men in recovery considering opening a relationship: minimizing complicating variables (familiar partners, safe locations, avoiding relapse-associated settings), practicing aftercare with oneself, one's hookup, and one's primary partner, and using tools like the "third entity" framework — treating the relationship itself as a stakeholder distinct from either individual — to navigate requests and boundaries without resentment. They close by distinguishing "balanced" from "equal" experiences within a relationship, and Aidan offers a broader reflection on self-compassion, cautioning listeners about how phone and dopamine culture quietly erodes the very communication and presence that healthy relationships — open or not — require.

Contact Aidan:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aidanwharton/?hl=en

Substack: http://gaybuffet.substack.com/

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Dallas Bragg

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Like forever. But in this context, yeah, we do go and have sex with people who we have never met and don't know at all. And there have been experiences where, and I'll say I don't know enough about using, but where I'm like, oh, was that person fully sober or maybe not?

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Yeah. Um, and I think what has helped me. Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Glad you're here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for the increased downloads. Um, we are every single month we we increase. So I'm I'm taking that. I'm not I'm not looking at percentages, I'm just looking at the amount of downloads we get. Um, and I do say, I will say, our audience is increasing in Europe and the and in the UK. We've gone from probably I think 30% up to up to 40% now, 50% in the US. So we're happy to have you all around the world listening. And don't forget to like, subscribe, share, all the good stuff. Leave us a review if you can. Um that gets the algorithm to put this podcast in where it needs to be. Also, I will say I've been getting a lot of clients from AI, from ChatGPT and Claude saying this is a podcast you might want to listen to. So I'm really happy about thank you, AI, if you're listening. Um, I really appreciate that. Because we are the only podcast dedicated specifically to chemsex um in terms of chemsex recovery. There is a chemsex stories podcast that we had on the podcast. We can listen to stories from people who are using or or who have used, uh, but this podcast is the one, one of its kind. And so I'm glad that AI is noticing that and bringing that to you too. So, but I think the more you can get in the algorithm, the better. All right, so today we're talking about open relationships. Um, if you've been listening to the podcast, uh you you know that I have shared my own um bias about open relationships based on some negative experiences that I've had. That bias is softening and softening as I go along. And as I study in my my sexologist certificate, I have understanding more about the why and the context of open relationships and the fact that I have been privy to some broken ones. I think a broken a relationship, if it's open or not, can be unhealthy, right? And so I think that I probably fixed my perspective based on some negative experiences, and then probably I would, I'm sure I have, um probably projected that experience onto anybody who's in an open relationship. So we'll talk about that today, maybe, uh, if we get there. But um, I've already had a little chat with Aidan and I've looked at your your Instagram page, Aiden, which we'll show in a little bit. And I it is helping me quite a bit in understanding the why and considering maybe I, you know, at this point in my life, if I do have ever get a relationship, maybe we'll open it up. Maybe not. Who knows if it'll happen. But Aiden, thank you for being here on the afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I am delighted to be here. And hello, all listeners, including all the new ones from from across the sea.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, yes. They're gonna be interested in what you have to say too, because um I think it's more welcome. I think it seems to be more welcomed over there, from what I can tell. I don't know, as far as more accepted. Um, maybe you can weigh on weigh in on that. I don't know. Um, but can you tell us about you too? Of course.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Um hi everyone. My name is Aiden Wharton. I am based in New York. I'm a sex and relationships writer and educator and columnist, uh, primarily focusing on open relationships. That's sort of I found that's my my niche. Um previous life, I was a Broadway actor and actor in general. It's what I got my training in, which a lot of people don't think there's a huge connect, but you know, going to school for theater and experiencing theater and acting is just a study of emotion and relationships. And so I feel like I've really been immersed in this for a very long time. Uh, I moved to New York about 10 years ago and really threw myself into the dating scene and dated a lot of people in couples, in trouples, in open relationships, and got to really see what all of this looked like. Um, and then my husband and I, we've been together for eight years now. And so that, of course, is also a big topic of my writing and my experience and navigating all of these really fascinating challenges and complexities that open relationships can have.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, and that's I I think in my mind, from somebody who hasn't had a lot of success in a relationship with one person. Um, you know, um I'm like, imagine because I did I did try to date once an ethical non-monogamous couple. Um they were going to, they were gonna we were gonna date, and then the possibility of me joining in there they had a lot of rules though. Like, if we have if we have sex, we all have sex. Nobody has sex on their own. And you know, this kind of thing, and this is the kind of thing. And so I tried that, but it was like discombobulating for me because it was two people with two whole different personalities and two different challenges, and I was like, this is exhausting for me. I told you, yeah, it's uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

So I mean, what do you say to that? There's some really important, I'd say, basis to cover before we we dive into it. Okay. First off, is that everybody has and comes to relationships with their own very strong beliefs about relationships, right? We grow up watching whatever relationships are around us, whether that is our parents or our caregivers. We are immersed in relationship storytelling, it's Disney movies, it's the movies we grow up watching, it is just like the beliefs. It's the um, you know, the society sort of places a heightened status to people in relationships. It's why we encourage marriage, it's why you get tax benefits when you're married. And so there are so many things that influence our beliefs about relationships. And all of that comes from, you know, thousands of years of conditioning, hundreds of years of romanticism and storytelling that tells us all of these things about how we are supposed to be in love. And so we all have that, and it's all deeply personal. And so seeing other types of relationships, whether that is non-monogamy, open relationships, polyamory, monogamy, relationship, anarchy, like there's so many different types of relationships. Whenever you see someone in a happy relationship that doesn't look like yours, it causes a pretty strong emotional reaction because it contradicts the things that you believe about safety and love and belonging. Okay. Which is why the discourse around open relationships is so hot amongst the gays. And so I just like to preface with that because in the work that I do, it's either people saying open relationships aren't real. They don't exist. If you're having sex with other people, that's not real. Or people saying, who gives a shit? Like everyone's open. Why are we talking about it so much? But there's nothing in the middle. You know, there's no books about it, there's no lesson, there's no school you can go to like you can with every other type of relationship. And the problem that arises is that you have all of these people with negative experiences because we don't give these types of relationships the credence and the import to actually look at them and say, what is different from monogamy to open relationships, from open relationships to polyamory? What's different with queer atypical relationships? What's different with gay open relationships? And so we don't look at it, and then this is what happens. You have all of these people who are sort of just winging it based on, you know, I learned it from the men that I dated when I moved to New York. Even now, they're like, I don't have a credential. You can't get an open relationship's credential. And so we're all just sort of flying by the seat of our pants. And what happens is a lot of people get hurt. And a lot of people get stuck in relationships that they don't really know how to move through, whether they're in the primary relationship or the third or the fourth. And so hopefully, for you listening, by the end of this, you'll have a little bit more grace, maybe a little bit more open mind on either side of the spectrum you fall on. And there's some like concrete tips and ways that you could actually make these relationships better so that experience that you had doesn't keep happening.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

So I want to get back to I want to get back to some things that you said. But first, why why an open relationship? What you know, what is the what is the value that you're getting from it?

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah. So I believe, you know, I'm a I'm a huge proponent of living a very full life. When I was younger, my life motto was I want the high highs and the low lows, because who wants a life half-lived, right? Okay. And I've always just been voracious about living life. And whatever clips of me saying this get surfaced, people are like, well, he's just like a hungry slut. Yeah. And sex is part of it, you know, like, but it's not just sex, it is living a fullness of life in whatever way that means. If that's going out and kissing people, if that's hanging out with friends, and it becomes more complicated and intimate than friendship. So for me, it's about experience. And I want to experience as much life as possible before I die. And why would I not want that exact same thing for my partner? I can be only exactly who I am. It's not that I am not enough for my partner or that he is not enough for me, but we can't be everything. I can't be a different height, I can't be a different hairiness level, a muscularity, uh emotional type, you know. None of I just can't. And we live in a a culture where we are expected for our partners to have everything and offer us everything. And I'm like, but they can't just because of who we are. So for me, it is about expansion and trusting and communicating with your partner enough to go out, have experiences and and come home.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So this this idea of living life, living life to the fullest, experiencing, experiencing, right. Um so so I I I I get that. Yeah. What are some other reasons that you know of? Like what what in your experience, like what would what would somebody say in terms of I want I want this to be obvious? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah. I mean a sexual, I'm not gonna say compatibility, but it can definitely alleviate uh sexual imbalances, right? So if one partner has a higher libido than the other partner, yeah, and the communication is good, then again, this can be a really nice way for people to alleviate that. Um, if there are kinks that one partner is into that the other one is not, long distance is a really common one. And a lot of people, when it comes to like big life changes, or they've been together for so long that they've only known each other. Like I know a lot of people who got together when they were in their early 20s and decide to open things up after 20, 30 years because they've only been with one partner for their whole lives and they don't want to dispose of their relationship, but they do want to experience other things. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Okay. Yeah. So some of that I have I have um been exposed to, like, you know, for e even even positions like a top and a bottom are together and the top wants to be topped, but but this bottom's not going to top them. I I you know, I know I know a couple like that, or one is really into like uh BDSM and the other isn't. I have heard I have come across that too. Um so when you when you realize I want to go out, like for you, like I want to experience life to the fullest. I want to go and have all these these experiences, what is the communication like? What is the conversation like with your partner? And what would you say to what would you say to somebody who asking for a friend asking for a friend, this like there there is a so I will say for it is me, but so I try I tried to date um I was about a year, a year and a half ago or something. I date a guy totally too young, probably way too young for me. I don't know. Big age difference. But anyway, yeah, we got together within a month, he was talking about all these things he wanted to do. Like he wanted to be gangbanged, and he wanted this, and he wanted that, and he wanted all these experiences. And so he was like, we, you know, he wanted to be open right away. And there was a visceral, like cry, like I like it hurt like a knife in the chest to me to think to think about anyone else touching him. Okay. I know that's a me issue. I know that's a me issue. I don't know what that's all about. Um, but that's another reason why I think there's a resistance to me about open relationships is what I experience with that. But what do you say to somebody who that you know they they're having this reaction of jealousy of why would you want somebody else to touch you and all of those other kind of things like that?

SPEAKER_02 15:09

I would start by asking what your formative memories and experiences are around sex and honestly, possession. Yeah, yeah. But I'd be like, I don't know, if you feel comfortable, like what did you feel underneath the anger and jealousy? Uh in I'll give you a moment to talk about it as I something I talk about a lot is that jealousy in our culture is really bad. Jealousy is toxic, jealousy is something to avoid. And a lot of things that I hear from people are how could you do this? I would be so jealous. I am inherently not a jealous person. It is, I think, part of why I'm I'm good at having these conversations. It's good why I'm good at the work that I do. I've been cheated on in the past, and I was like, I don't know, I I get like it's never been, it's never been a deal breaker for me. I understand the the nuance and everything. Right. Right. And so for me, jealousy is the best teacher that you can have in an open relationship. Yeah. Because jealousy is a cover for other things. It's not, it's not the cause, it is the symptom, right? So I would ask when you're feeling this jealousy, when you're thinking about him being touched by other people and that feeling starts to bubble up, is it a fear of abandonment? Is it a fear of insecurity? Are you feeling not enough? Are you feeling untethered in the relationship? Do you feel secure? Is there something else you need from him? Because in a monogamous relationship, usually like everyone gets jealous. Period. Monogamous couples get jealous, open couples, polycouples. But in my experience, what I've found is that open couples have a better and polycouples have a better opportunity to talk about what's underneath it than monogamous couples. So what was underneath it?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Well, I so my I would say the overarching theme for my life has been exclusion. Right. Like which is huge for gay men. Yeah, exclusion always. Like I'm never a part of the yeah, I'm never a part of the crowd. I'm never part of the cool kids, right? I I always it's it's such a self-fulfilling prophecy now. So so I have evolved now to the point where I see the exclusion coming up. I'm able to observe it, but not like allow it to take over. I didn't realize at that when when I was dating that guy, what was really happening was that he was excluding me. Okay. He he was going to go off and I wasn't chosen. Right. I was left out. Right. And so to my system, that's life-threatening. And so I I didn't know that's what was happening at the time, but I do now. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Would there have been a possibility for him to include you? Or did that to him feel very separate?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

It felt very separate. He had very specific. Like he wanted two Latinos to spit roast him. Like he was very like a checklist. Yeah. I did get a checklist. Right. Um, yeah. And so it just, you know, I wasn't included in that. I I he could probably let me watch. I don't know. I don't we didn't really get there. But um it didn't seem that way.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

But you know, he would I think knowing yourself well enough and knowing that, I'm like, that actually sounds like a really astute observation for you and not a great partner for you, you know. Yes, exactly. But on the flip side, and also like disclaimer, I'm not ever trying to force open relationships on people. It it is a very common belief that if you are publicly positively talking about open relationships, you are forcing your lifestyle on people on other days. And it and it becomes a very honestly, like a very weird sort of straight argument where it's like, you can do it, just like don't force it on us. So to be clear, right? I believe that what I want to do on the internet and in my work is help people who are curious about it have better tools. If you don't want an open relationship, I don't want you to have one. Okay. And so, like in this context, if exclusion is really, really a trigger for you, maybe openness is going to be hard than it would be for somebody who that's less of a trigger. It might not be the best relationship structure for you. And that doesn't make you closed-minded, that doesn't make you too insecure, it actually makes you like really self-aware. Yeah. But imagine maybe the healing that could happen. Yeah. If you had a partner who knew this exclusion and was like, I'm going to include you so beautifully and holistically in this. Like for me, I think open relationships can actually help us heal a lot of this stuff that couldn't happen in monogamy necessarily. Yeah. You know, because you can have somebody who's like, I want to include you in this in a way that you've never been included before.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Like, let me do this with you. Yeah. Now that I could do. That I that sounds that sounds lovely. Yeah, I want to say too about that is, and maybe this will help a licitor as well. During that time, I turned it all, I gasolit myself. And I said, I'm not evolved enough. I'm not a good gay, you know, I'm not, I'm not, again, I'm excluded. I'm excluding myself from the gay community because I don't want an open relationship. I turned it all on me. My nervous system was also saying, This man is not good for you. Like you don't trust him. That is the other part of that, which didn't come to me later because the next guy I met, I felt like, oh, I I actually could do open relationship with him. Right. So to me, it ended up being like part of it was my nervous system saying, This guy is also, this, this is not good for you, this whole situation. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Right. And I think we always know, right? Like whether or not we listen to our gut feelings, our gut feelings are usually right. And it in that instance sounds like you conflated a relationship style with the person. And I think that happens a lot too, where people will have one really bad experience with somebody who wanted to be open or was open, and it becomes a referendum on open relationships and not that person. Yeah. You know, it's like a little bit of a a double standard, maybe. The example I use often is if a monogamous couple. Ends their relationship because of cheating, they ended it because someone cheated. Like that's the reason. If an open couple breaks up for any reason, it's usually because, well, they were open. So that open relationship was destined to fail. But with cheating in a monogamous relationship, I'm like, well, they actually ended because of monogamy. So that monogamous relationship was destined to fail because somebody had wants, desires, and needs that they didn't feel like they could communicate with their partner. So then they breached the trust. You know?

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great. So I liked what you said earlier about a relationship that contradicts how we view safety, love, and belonging is threatening. And I had this conversation with a trans woman on the podcast recently where she said the same thing. Like her lifestyle, her choices threatened the social cultural norms and what we feel like gender should look like and what people should do. And that opened my eyes up to a lot of things for myself as well of oh, this I'm activated by that because it goes against my fundamental beliefs of what I was taught is right or wrong. Yeah. And I know that that's part of what the bias is to for me around open relationships as well. Um, so I think it's a good question for anybody listening is what is your what are your feelings about safety, love, and belonging and what should and shouldn't be? And can you ease up on that a little bit? Can you look inside and see, right? Right. And, you know, our our brains are not evolved for the world that we live in right now.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah. You know, um, our our brains are rationally able to comprehend about 150 relationships, period. Your sort of like acquaintance circle, I think, hovers around 1,500 people that you can sort of like tangentially uh recognize. Yeah. Think about how many people you follow on Instagram. It is probably maybe, I don't know, over 1,500. Or at least if it's not how many people you follow, it's how many people Instagram feeds you, right? Sure. Yeah. And so we're stuck in this weird place where we grow up with our own sense of morality and we grow up with our own belief systems. And now we are seeing literally every other type out there. And it's gonna make us really mad because also the social media platforms through which we experience audible world want us to be upset. They want us to feel lonely, they want us to feel isolated so we stay on the platform, they want us to get angry and anxious so that we comment and that we boost things in the algorithm. And so everything out there is not helping us be kinder and more accepting and more empathetic of people. And the way that we build that empathy is by being vulnerable. And that can't happen on the internet because the minute you're vulnerable, somebody is gonna tear you down. No matter what I post, somebody will comment some sort of hate on it. You know, it's like the first rule of the internet is like you can post a video of puppies and somehow it'll turn political. Yeah. And so we exist online and it's tearing us apart. As and especially this happens with gay culture, the gays, and open relationships. It's just constant fighting for the sake of fighting.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Who's surprised to continue to hear you say the gays are hating? They also get flack for that. And are hating open relationships because I feel like the gays love open relationships. Because every almost every couple I know are open. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

I mean, just scroll through, I can read you some comments. Especially like, so so my husband and I were interviewed by John Dean. He did a mini documentary about open relationships. Okay. And I actually wonder, I had to take myself off of the reel because it was normally when the comments get bad enough, I'll just turn them off when it's my stuff. But if it's not mine, I can't do that. Um and it was fascinating. I think we're at like, yeah, 650 comments. And I would say 600 of them are bad. Wow. Interesting. And again, it's these open relationships aren't real. In the clip, in particular, it's just me talking. So it's like, well, his husband's silence speaks volume, or like this little slut just wants to go get fucked by blah blah blah. And it's also really fascinating the misogyny that is a parent. Like all of the takedowns of me being a slut are also, well, ew, he's like such a little bottom, he just wants to go get fucked. Yeah. And so it's it's this thing because I again I also think a lot of people do assume that every gay person wants open relationships. So if you are a monogamy-focused gay man who is single and or unhappy, or just wanting to sort of be feisty on the internet, like it's easy to just take that out on you. You know, a lot of single gay men who want monogamy are really frustrated because they're like, well, everyone's open. How am I supposed to meet someone? Yes. Or this person was open and they didn't tell me about it until later. There's a lot of dishonesty too. I think open relationships should be disclosed in the opening, opening salvo.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like oh, so what what you're saying is a comment that I have made before. Yeah. Especially when I see it, no, you know, this is I'm just being quite honest with you. Like somebody like you with the body that you have, because I've scrolled your, I've scrolled your your Instagram. The body that you have, the ass that you have, all this stuff. I will say, I can't even get a fucking date. Right? And then this is what I'm what I have said in the past. I'm not saying I'm saying it now. I can't even get a fucking date. He has a great boyfriend, and he's outdating these men and sleeping with these men. Like, how fucking greedy could he be? Totally. And that's that's the comments.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

And and I again, I would, I would sort of be dumb to ignore the the privilege that I have. I am a white, tall, cisgendered, attractive gay man in New York City. Right. It is it is probably as easy for me in this context as it could be. Yeah. But I also think that, you know, I was raised with a lot of like discussion about relationships. My high school friends and I sort of explored this open, not even open relationships, but our relationships were so fluid and we would sit around and essentially have like group therapy. So I've been really primed to think about and communicate about relationships in a way that is really earnest and vulnerable. And so while I really do understand that that my experience has a ton of privilege, I also think that the way in which I can look at it can still really be helpful to a lot of people. At least I hope. Yeah. Yeah. And I like I try to really better myself in a lot of those ways. And there are a lot of contextual aspects of open relationships that I don't know the answers to, like interracial couples. That is also a really nuanced conversation when it comes to open relationships, chem sex and recovery and sobriety. You know, these are all things that, again, you can't go to school for these things. So it's a lot of careful, empathetic conversation. And I just try to be really open to listening and having the conversations that I think will help people.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I've come to realize is Dallas, you don't have a date because of the attitude you're displaying right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

You know what I mean? Nobody, nobody wants to be around that.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Okay. See, but here's the thing. Uh, like a month ago, the so the sort of like New York gay Instagram community, everyone was making reels about dating. Everyone was upset about dating. Everyone was complaining about dating. Yeah. It was like hot white guys complaining about dating, and then other people attacking them for being privileged and dumb. Like it became like this cyclone of the internet. And again, the the thing that I just was thinking about so much is that we are blaming our inability to date or find our partners on other men. Yeah. But we are not talking about or taking action on like how the apps that we're using are the reasons we hate other gay men. Yes. Yes, thank you. Exactly. I'm sorry, if you are only looking for partners on the apps, you are in service of the app. And the app is filtering how you see these people, and it is making you hate people. It is making you behave in a way that you would not if you were in person. Yes. The online disinhibition syndrome, because of the anonymity and the delayed response, we are awful to each other. Uh-huh. And on like the swiping apps, you're getting rejected more than the human brain can comprehend. On Grindr, you're blocking and ignoring people and you're treating them like you wouldn't in real life. And so that translates to real life. And now we don't know how to talk to each other. We don't go talk to each other in bars because we have the apps. So, so yes, like I'm not out here being like dating is easy, you guys. Dating is the hardest it has ever been. Yeah. But the villains are not each other.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

The villains are the apps. Yeah. Yeah. And yourself. For me, I mean the villa, the villain was me, you know.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

But I I but I see, even though I was listening to a podcast and it was about Gen Z dating. And at the very end, they said, it's really important to say, like, these Gen Z kids have inherited a world that is so devoid of human connection. Yeah. And that is not their fault. And it is not your fault, Dallas, or you listener, if you're feeling frustrated, that we have been seduced and addicted by billion-dollar companies whose entire business model is to keep us addicted. Yeah. Yeah. And so we, and again, it's like I feel addicted to social media and it's my job. Right. You know, with other addictions, you can, in quotes, set them aside. I have to open Instagram all the fucking time, and I know it's messing with my brain. So it's not your fault. It's not your fault that the companies are succeeding in what they've spent billions of dollars trying to do, which is exploit your insecurity.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yes. Yeah. Well, we could get off on a whole, we could do a whole other podcast on the apps and how the apps are perpetuating the chemsex scene. And the the apps aren't going to do anything about chem sex because that's their bread and butter, to be quite honest. That's my that's my stand, and I will never stop thinking that. Um, however, I want to get back to, I want to talk about, so if if I'm having a conversation, what does communication in an open relationship look like? Do do you do you say if this is too personal, don't you know, just make it general, but do you say to your your husband, hey, I've got a date tonight with do you like, here's this picture, or here's what we're going to do? Do you go in that kind of detail or how what are the parameters here?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah. So again, the unhelpful answer is it's unique to everyone, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The more helpful answer is what types of communication will make you feel the most secure? For my husband and I, pretty quickly, so so we started having this conversation because we were doing long distance. I was doing a national tour, I was doing Wicked. And so we would sort of come up like with these instances where he'd be like, hey, I'm gonna go out, or I guess I was on the West Coast. I'd be like, I'm gonna go out with the cast.

unknown 34:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

I don't know what's gonna happen. I have no plans, but you're gonna be asleep. What do you feel comfortable with me doing this evening so that I don't have to worry that I'm breaking a rule, worry that there's gray area, so I can know exactly what you feel comfortable with, and I can then be fully present in my experience that I'm having. Wow. I love it. So that was sort of how we started. And now, no matter what we do, we talk about it before. We ask about it. We learned very quickly that asking feels very different than telling. You know, it feels very different for me to say, hey, Dallas, do you mind if I go see someone this afternoon versus, hey Dallas, I'm gonna go see someone this afternoon. Even if I don't think we've really ever said no. But just the option is very important to us. Yeah. Um. And so again, we like to communicate about everything beforehand and a bit afterwards, just because we recognize that what feels good one day might not feel good the next day. The same person might feel different, depending on my mood and my mental health and my whatever, that might feel different. And I find that once you set rules, then there's much more to butt up against in either way. You know, you can either be like, oh, well, I can if this is the rule, I there's a little wiggle room, or I don't like that there's this rule. Like, so we just try to keep everything as as fluid as possible. And I know a lot of other people like really strict rules. Um, I, you know, some people don't want to hear about it, some people don't want to talk about it, they want to set it once and then forget about it. In that context, what I would advise people is ask yourself why you don't want to talk about it. I know a lot of people do don't ask, don't tell relationships, open relationships. That's what I've seen a lot. Yeah. And I think most often I have seen that don't ask, don't tell relationships are a cover for unsolved issues. You know, a lot of people say, I I can't hear about that. Yeah. And if I was being blunt with them, I would say, then you shouldn't do it. If you can't talk about it, you shouldn't do it. Yeah. Um if you don't feel like you need to hear about it, that's a different thing. You know, if you're like, oh, I just it's not doesn't make me upset. I just am like, you know, here home doing work. I don't need to hear about every detail that you just had. Right. But if it's like I can't hear about it because the thought of you with another man makes my blood boil, you're gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, I I do see where this could take communication trust in a relationship to a whole new level. Um I I like this. I like this ask versus tell. I like this what makes you feel comfortable today. Mm-hmm. Because it might not be what makes you feel comfortable tomorrow, right? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

You know, I could be feeling great about myself, right? Say I'm having like the best day ever. And what's a good example? My husband wants to go hook up with somebody who maybe I don't know, I have some like competitiveness with. I don't know. Yeah. Great example. But you know what I'm talking about. And I'm like, yeah, who cares? I feel on top of the world. That doesn't bother me at all. Yeah. A week later, I'm feeling down, I'm feeling insecure. That person would have a very different relationship. And I'd be like, hey, I actually don't feel like I want that. That of course, the the backlash would be like, well, why would you want to invite that into your life? And a lot of people don't, and that's also okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't mind a lot of relationship work. It's what I was brought up doing. It's all my family talks about is relationships. This is where I feel comfortable. This is not where a lot of men feel comfortable in particular. A lot of men are not socialized to talk about their emotions with this much depth and care.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Right. And there's no moral judgment about that. If you don't want an open relationship, that does not mean you're less evolved than other gay men.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah. You know. Okay. And so then then there's open relationships where you play together. Totally. Right. Right. And then there's there's so many different types.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Right. And sort of why it's also so hard to like find information about it is because there are so many types, you know. Someone could look at my relationship and be like, well, that to me looks more like polyamory. That to me looks more like you know, I had a post recently, and and some people were like, hey, this feels very like primary couple-centric, and you're sort of excluding the experiences of polyamorous people. Because again, like I'm an emotional person. I like to know the people that I'm having sex with. And yet I'm not really at this point interested in having another per relationship, right? I'm not interested in having another boyfriend. And to me, that's why I talk about open relationships so much. It is a a primary couple with tangential experiences. Yes. And those relationships can look however you want them. They could be someone you both know, someone you both have sex with, someone you have sex with together, someone only one person knows. Like you get to make it however you want. And again, what I try to do is is give people the tools to have and build the relationships they want, not necessarily the ones that they've inherited. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Okay, good. Okay, so some there's two there's two kinds of camps that I see. One is the couple is open, and one of them finds chemsex because especially where you are, the the possibility of running into crystal meth is very high. I don't know if you ever have, but um, it's it's it's very it's very likely that you're going to show up and they're using their and they have a pipe or whatever, or you know, so then they try it, they love it, and then they're hooked because it's a very, it's a very addictive substance. Um, and so then you've got to, you know, then we have basically the problems that ensue. So what would you say if if I'm a couple and I'm opening them up, what are some things we could do to maybe prevent that or have a communication line open that yeah, that I guess could prevent that or or take care of it kind of soon into it.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah. I mean, again, this will be my disclaimer of I I don't have a ton of experience in this particular area. Yeah. Um, but I think a lot of these learnings and lessons can can be applied. It's interesting. So I grew up in Hawaii, and Hawaii has a really intense meth uh problem and a really intense schooling about it. Yeah. Um so I think part of it is discussion about it before it happens. Yeah. You know, I I was learning about the effects of meth when I was 12. I I would say I got a better meth education than I did sex education. Yeah. Interesting. Um, and that for me personally has never left my brain. And so I bring that up because I do think talking about it in advance is really helpful. Um and in this question, like, are you talking about a couple who has experience or somebody who it might be an introduction to?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah. So this this scenario, camp one, is we've we're just opening up, right? And then, yeah, and then one of them gets introduced. So I think what you're saying is good in terms of if you're if you're a couple, you're listening to this, or let's say you get into a relationship later, is first of all, talk about this what are the signs and the symptoms of somebody who's using. Uh-huh. What are the profiles like? What is the language? You know, like let's educate ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

When I was like, what do you mean? Do I party? And I was like, oh. I'm pretty sure my response they asked me, and I was like, I've I've like smoked a little bit of weed.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

But again, learning and all of this knowledge. That's right. Um, educating yourselves as a couple. Because I I I've heard this said by a couple of don't if you're going to go out, uh, don't fuck around with the tweakers, you know. Well, that's not that's not specific enough. It's not helpful. That's not helpful. That's anyone. Yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Um, so talking in advance, I think. And and I'm wondering about, do you think, I mean, are are there couples that check in? Like, I'm I'm going into my hookup. I'm book like booking, bookending the hookup, is that reasonable for some, do you think? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

I mean, especially again, when I was traveling, I would text my husband and be like, hey, heading over, you know, he has my location. So I was like, if you don't hear back from me in like an hour. You know, and but that's like a it's not weird because it's it's so common and it's what gay people do, but it isn't an interesting. Aspect of gay culture is like there is a bit of risk involved with our sex that is, I mean, I guess there's like pregnancy risk for women and assault risk. Like there's risk, unfortunately, for everyone. But in this context, yeah, we do go and have sex with people who we have never met and don't know at all. And there have been experiences where, and I'll say I don't know enough about using, but where I'm like, oh, was that person fully sober or maybe not? Yeah. Um, and I think what has helped me is having a safe, comfortable partner space where I can sort of laugh about that, to be like, yo, Casey, you will not believe what just happened. You know? And we can laugh about it because we can have the space to sort of explore it. You know, I think shame is a really big one. I think shame is the reason that drugs are so prevalent in the gay community, and shame is the reason that then we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yep. Yeah. And so I would actually then like point the question back to you of like, what have you found our easy ways to talk about it? Because I think it's it's the same conversation.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah. To talk about specifically.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

If it's a couple who has never used, and even if they don't use in a sexual situation, but they're like, hey, like, you know, I don't know, this guy seemed a little strange.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Maybe he's like restaurant, like, what are the yeah? I mean, the there's a lot. So recently I this is funny. Um, I was invited to a hotel room of a thruple, and they were in town. Like the uh all three, like hot thruple. I was like so flattered. I was like, oh wow, wow, you know, and I'm gonna go do this. So I went up on my way, so I got to the hotel on the elevator up. He one of them messaged me and said, Oh, we just we just dropped a bunch of water in the floor. Can you give us a minute? And ding in my head, it was a ding ding ding. Like, this sounds messy to me. Yeah, it sounds messy to me. Um, but I and that by that time I'm in the hallway looking at their doorway. I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna go. Maybe they did just drop water, right? So when you when you're talking to, when you're talking to somebody who's using their their responses usually are very delayed. Okay. Okay, that's one thing, is they're very delayed in getting back. Um, they may ask you the same question a lot, and there's very little like um uh due diligence. Like, you know what I mean? Like then they quickly invited me up to the room. In my mind, even at this point of eight years in recovery, I still fell for it. I was like, oh, they just really they're just really into me. You know, they didn't ask me like what I was into or anything. I mean, I guess I don't know. But so those are some of the things too, is that when you're on meth, your your standards are very low. A dick and a hole is all that you want. It doesn't matter what's attached to it. So when I go in, they're all three already naked, which is a little bit of a sign too. Um, and then they're all three kind of playing with flaccid dicks. All signs that they've been using, right? So I kind of thought, okay, well, they're not hard yet, but then you know, you can tell like they're they're jacking a limp dick, all of them. Right. So then one of them gets up and comes to me and just like jittery.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

You know what I mean? Like something like that. And I was like, I left. I was like, okay, that's all I need, that's all I need, that's all.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

This was great. Or when I turned around, he was letting another guy in. There you go. This this guy, no offense, so unattractive.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

It's so all this flattery that I was feeling about them inviting me up was gone. I was like, I need to get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Anyway, that those are some things to look for. Yeah. You know, and I think it's a disadvantage too, like you're saying, of not maybe getting to know somebody first before you're before you do hook up. And I don't expect you to do that every time in an open relationship, but those are some signs and some symptoms, you know, that that they're using.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

And I would say a yeah, a a a benefit, uh, a possible good thing about being in an open relationship, if that's the case, is that you can sort of like debrief about it. You can talk about it, you can say, like, oh, these are the things I learned, these are things I did it. This is it was really scary. Like, will you comfort me?

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Yeah. Yes. You know? Yes. It but it all comes back to communication. Right. And so that's what I was gonna say is it seems to me that in order for me to be completely honest, to feel comfortable in a container, to share that maybe I used, you know, what I like I knew he was using and I went ahead and used, like being able to be in a a relationship where I feel comfortable sharing that without shame, it seems to me that there's gotta be a lot of work uh on the front end before you're opening this up. Isn't yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:35

I mean, again, every relationship's different. Right. But whether or not there is work done, I think is dependent on the trust, safety, and communication you have with your partner. If that comes really naturally, and you guys, you know, I I know couples who have always been open, who started open and then just stayed open. I know couples who have started monogamous for 20 years and then opened up. And I think there is no relationship health benchmarker quite as strong as like respect, trust, and communication. Um and like a shared dedication to each other's happiness. You know, as soon as you like stop caring about your partner, all that other stuff goes out the window. And I think a lot of open couples, some open couples, that happens quickly, then they open up to try to, you know, fix the relationship, but they don't give a shit about their partner. So they're like, well, I'm gonna do what I want. And that is again where all of this conflict comes from because we don't want to do the hard work of communicating about what we're feeling. I sort of feel like I didn't answer your question.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

No, you did. You didn't because you know, because I I came into the podcast thinking we could give like a step-by-step guide, and there isn't one. Right. Until you write your book, I'm so I'm assuming you're writing a book. Um, but you know, which is going to be really so good. But anyway, I I feel like if we zoom out, if you're listening to this and let's say somebody's used and you've closed the relationship back up for a little while and you're about to open it up, or somebody or you're about to open it up and and there's a chance of using is is asking yourself these questions that you're saying is what feels comfortable for me and for us, right? So if if yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

I think there are two really important points to talk about here is open relationships are hard. Open relationships plus recovery plus chem sex are harder. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's really important in this context to very deeply make sure that if you are opening things up again post-using, you make it as easy and comfortable as possible. You know, make sure that you are gonna hook up with someone, maybe who you already know, maybe who you know is a a safe person. Yeah. Maybe you hook up at their house. You know, if if you used in certain spaces like hotels, maybe don't hook up in a hotel. Like, make sure that you can strip away all of the things that would add a complication because it's already gonna be complicated, especially if there's been breaches of trust in the past. Yeah. That's part one. Part two is that you will only know how you feel about something after you've done it. And I think that's another part of open relationships that that people either make or break is like you have to have some grace with your partner and you have to allow for some level of discomfort. You shouldn't allow for not feeling safe, but there's a big difference between discomfort and safety. And so talk to your partner. Make sure that you ask the questions of what do I feel comfortable doing? Where do I feel comfortable doing it? How much emotion do you feel comfortable with? What do we, what do you and I as the primary couple need afterwards to heal? Do we go out to a nice dinner? Do we take a bath together? Do we have sex? Do we give each other a massage? Do we just watch TV on the couch together? Like what will make us feel like we're coming back together stronger? And then acknowledge that there's gonna be emotions and that you feel comfortable enough to navigate those emotions together afterwards. You know, aftercare is really important, and you need to do it with yourself, you need to do it with the person you just had sex with, and you need to do it with your partner.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That was great. That's good. As easy and comfortable as possible. And then some things you grow on, you only know how you feel about them after you've done it. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Like the first person, I mean this might be like the first person I I will remember the first person I had sex with opening up my relationship with sexual. Like, right? Because it was weird. I was like, how are we gonna feel? What's this gonna be like? And we talked about it. We my husband and I, we weren't married then, but we talked about like who feels safe. And for us, it was somebody that I already knew, somebody who I had sex with before we got together, who there was a healthy relationship between all parties. Yeah. And it was weird, and we figured out my emotions afterwards, but it was a safe experience.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

I like that. I like that. Yeah. It just, yeah, I think being intentional. Being intentional, being safe and and moving slowly. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

A lot of people say like, move at the pace of the less secure partner. Ah, I like that. Yeah, I don't, I'm like, I think I think I agree with that. Unl until, like again, with a caveat of like, if then you're just like always dragging and it's never matched, then there's something to be said there. Something else I think is important to just have the listener know is that there's a big difference between balanced and equal in an open relationship. A lot of couples really get into trouble because they're trying to stay in pace with their partner. They feel like if their partner has sex, then they have to have sex. If their partner has sex a certain way, then they have to have sex with a certain way. But you don't. That'll actually just like really be a recipe for resentment. So, like, know how you want to have sex, know what makes you happy. It's like your solo sexual experiences are yours and they're allowed to be yours in whatever way you want them to be, as long as everyone's happy and and and okay. And like it's okay if your partner has sex three times a week and you have sex once a month. If that feels okay to the two of you, yeah, then you don't have to try to keep up with each other.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

I like that. I like that balanced and equal. There's a difference between, yeah, balanced and equal and discomfort and unsafe. Um and then I also like this ask versus tell too. Yeah. Although you said you've never been told no. What what happens?

SPEAKER_02 56:17

We we have I would say not never, but it's very rare. Okay. You know, yeah. What we do in that circumstance or what we've we've tried to really play with. Um, my grandfather does counsel, which is a sort of Native American form of therapy and communication. And something that he talks a lot about, which we've brought in is like this sort of like third entity. And so we think about the relationship as its own entity, right? So it's like it's not me versus him, it is me and him and the relationship. Yeah, I like that. And what that helps us do is say, I might want to do something, right? Say I want to go off with someone and he does not want me to do that. If he says, and I I might have, you know, usually I'm always like, you're how we always have veto power, and I usually am really totally fine with it. So it's like, if I want to go do something, he doesn't want me to go, we balance how that feels about the relationship. If I'm like, that'll make me sad, but it will be good for you, and I'm gonna be disappointed, but I don't really care, it'll be good for the relationship. So that's two for don't go, one for go. If and that sort of like helps us just like balance it out. If he says yes, but doesn't mean it, that's good for me, bad for him, and doesn't help us with our honesty and communication, bad for the relationship. Yeah, yeah. So even though I'm allowed to go, it's too bad and one good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just helps sort of diffuse the situation.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

I like it.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

I like it. All right, Aiden. What have I left out today? What do you what do you want to do about it?

SPEAKER_02 58:11

I feel like I really covered so many things. We were all out here. Just that, you know, it's I'm like, what's what's my last uh my last little message? We're all out here doing the best we can. Yeah. And a relationship should make you feel good and help you grow. And those are my two metrics that I follow. And if openness works for you, great. Yeah. If it doesn't work for you, that's okay. If your relationship flourishes and then doesn't work out, like it's not nothing's a failure. There's no like problems here. We're all just trying to like the world is hard enough. Exactly. Deserve love and you deserve care and good experiences, yeah. And a little bit of grace as we all try to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Yeah, right. I like that. And the last thing we need to do is turn on ourselves. Yeah. Right? It's just this, you know, which is which is what's perpetuating, I think, the chem sex scene. Yeah. You know, we're we're fleeing the main culture to to develop our other subculture where we do feel accepted. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

And I mean, this will skip us on a whole nother tangent. Turn off your phones. Because we we are in such a dopamine culture. I actually don't know if this has been reported on, but our brains are so primed for dopamine. Uh, there's a great two great books, Stolen Focus by Johan Mari. Yes. And Dopamine Nation by Dr. Anna Lempke. Yeah. We are so like our brains are not, again, evolved to handle this much information and this much dopamine. So that affects how we experience sex, that affects how we experience porn. And so because we want, wa, wah, wah, want, and then we have this sort of like seesaw in our brain where we have so much dopamine, and our brain tries to balance it with anxiety and depression and these bad things. And so it really just perpetuates this. So I'd also say, like, really investigate your phone usage because that is something that no one attributes these problems to. Right. You know, they're like, well, it's it's your partner, it's your communication skills. It's I'm like, no, it's addiction to our phone.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Right. Right. Let me go get on medication instead of turning the phone off.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Yeah. In the in one of these books, he's like, going to a doctor and saying you have ADHD is like going and saying you have a cough. He'll hear you cough and be like, great. So you have trouble paying attention? You don't need some might, some do. There are rising ADHD levels and they're really tied.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

Don't get me going, Aiden. I get I get enough. No, that is something I get hate about. What? Oh, right. My viewpoint on ADHD. Yep. You know, it is the self-tagness.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

In one of those books, this is the last thing I'll say. Your IQ is lower if you are constantly distracted at work than if you are drunk or stoned. So having constant distractions will make you worse at your job than if you showed up wasted.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

Right. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:24

And yes, and yet we're just becoming more dependent on them.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

Um, Aiden, thank you. You have your Substack. Oh, you have 20,000 uh subscribers on Substack. What a following. A big following on Instagram. We're gonna put your uh handle in the show notes. Please follow Aiden. Looks like a lot of my friends and colleagues follow you already, and no surprise. Um, not A-I-D-E-N. A lot of people mistake. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll be in the show notes too. Um but yeah, yeah, we really appreciate you being here. This was good, really good for me, good for the listeners, I'm sure. Um, and then you guys, if you have any questions or you have comments you want to engage in conversation, you can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, or you can DM me or DM Aiden. Yeah, you can do it. I try to be really active in my DMs if people have questions. Nice. That's good to hear. Thank you. Of course. All right, guys. Hope you enjoyed this episode. We will see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

Bye.