EP 3:31 Chemsex Harm Reduction and Homelessness with Thiccums

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/homeless

In this special episode — the first ever recorded in person for The AfterMeth Podcast — Dallas Bragg travels to Los Angeles for a chemsex conference and sits down with Thiccums, the voice behind the Instagram page "How to Be Homeless in LA." What unfolds is a candid, deeply human conversation about loss, survival, and the slow work of reclaiming one's worth. Thiccums traces a life that once held two houses, two cars, and a marriage, and how the death of his mother, a divorce, and a childhood spent searching for belonging in the foster care system opened the door to meth. His story lands squarely on a theme familiar to so many in recovery: how the drug offered a counterfeit sense of acceptance, euphoria, and appreciation to a man who had spent a lifetime looking for love and a place to call home. Dallas and Thiccums move through the arc of addiction with unusual honesty — the progression from party spaces to isolated use, the paranoia and psychosis, the grief of watching a friend die, and the guilt that eventually led Thiccums into therapy.

Grounding the conversation in practical reality, Thiccums walks listeners through the systems he learned to navigate: contingency management programs through APLA's chemsex services, shelter intake and housing matrices, general relief and food stamps, and the everyday resources — showers, laundry, restrooms, a listening ear — that make survival on the street possible. He speaks openly about the role fentanyl test strips played in his decision to slow down, the impact of budget cuts on the recovery meetings that once sustained him, and his diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder as one window into why some are drawn to substances in the first place. Threaded throughout is Thiccums's hard-won message of self-love and self-acceptance — that recovery begins with knowing you are enough, exactly as you are. The episode closes with a gentle call to community care and a reminder that small acts of dignity can change a life.

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_real_thiccums/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Today is a two-parter. So first I want to walk you through some of the newest peer-reviewed research on chemsex recovery. Might seem a little boring to you, but I want you to stick with me. I'm making it as simple as possible. I don't like to listen to a bunch of names and journals and all that stuff either, but this is important. Because we're going to look at what is actually working for this very unique, misunderstood, worldwide healthcare crisis. You deserve to hear what the research world is saying globally. You deserve to know that there are real alternatives beyond abstinence-based approaches. One quick note before we start. As I said, every study I mentioned today is going to be listed in the show notes. Authors, journals, years, all of it. So I'm going to keep it simple as we go and just say a study. And you can dig into the details yourself if you want them. Then, after the research, I have something I am really excited about. While I was in LA recently, I recorded a first ever in-person interview, and I could not have picked a better person. His name is Thickams. DeLong Cray, I think. He is a former meth user, currently unhoused, and on his way to changing that. And he has built an Instagram page offering services to unhoused people all over the LA area. He is truly giving back. And Thickams is a product of contingency management. It's one of the harm reduction approaches we are going to talk about today. You will hear the research and then you will hear it walking around in real life. So, what do I mean by abstinence-based approaches? I mean the model most of us have accepted as the gospel of recovery. Recovery defined as never using again, starting today. You stop and then you receive care. And as long as you say stopped, you are counted as a success. Success gets measured in days from zero, and one use sends you back to the beginning. For some men, that route is very valid and that route is right for them. It was for me, but based on the research, we are doing you a harsh disservice if we never offer you anything else that might work specifically for you. So I'm going to use this term harm reduction to separate these other approaches from abstinence-based ones. But as we have learned on this podcast, harm reduction is a spectrum that runs from abstinence all the way to active use. So technically, it is all harm reduction. That is what this episode is about. Today I'm making an argument, and I want to be very precise about this. Abstinence keeps its seat at this table. The argument is that abstinence is one door in a room that the research, scientific research says has many doors, and specifically for meth. Some of the other doors, contingency management, managed use, structured reduction, all of it carry very serious evidence. So let's open some of these doors for you. When abstinence is the only measure of success, everything short of it gets recorded as failure. A man goes from using five days a week to using twice a month, and that's failure? No. A man who stops injecting, who starts sleeping, who gets his job back, who reconnects with his sister, but all of a sudden he tests positive once in a week in week ten, and he's a failure? He has to start over. The model does not see who he is and what he's actually doing. And that model, what the model can't see, it cannot serve. The research has started to see him, though. So let me walk you through it. Door number one, contingency management. If you have never heard the term contingency management, it's very simple. You get rewarded, usually a gift card or small voucher, for meeting a recovery goal. Most often a drug test that comes back negative for stimulants. So that's it. Your brain's reward system, that same system that meth hijacked, gets recruited back into your own corner. You show up, you test negative, you get rewarded. The rewards grow the longer you go. Now, I know how that sounds to some people. You want to pay people to not use it, really sounds like some kind of a gimmick, but it it sounds like too small to matter against the drug this big. But here is what the data says. A major review in 2020 looked at 27 studies of contingency management for meth use disorder. Twenty-six of the twenty-seven showed reduced meth use. Twenty-six out of the twenty-seven. And on top of that, people stayed in treatment longer, they attended more sessions, and they took fewer sexual risks. The review concluded that clinics treating meth should be offering contingency management. Full stop. And listen to this part. Gay men helped build this evidence. Because some of the foundational trials were done specifically with meth-dependent men who have sex with men. Back in 2005, a study in Los Angeles worked with meth-dependent gay and bisexual men and found that the men who received contingency management, alone or combined with talk therapy, went longer without using than the men who got talk therapy by itself. And those gains held for a full year later. If contingency management were a pill, it would be front page news. And the tide is turning because in 2023, California became the first state in the nation to get federal approval to cover contingency management through Medicaid. It is called the Recovery Incentives Program, and California's own health department describes contingency management as the treatment with the strongest outcomes for stimulant use disorder. Reduced use, stopped use, longer time in care. In January 2025, the federal government raised the annual incentive cap tenfold to $750 per patient. And a study published in 2026 found that even at the higher cap, contingency management is still a bargain for the healthcare system, saving the money. It gets results. Sit with that. After decades of confrontation, of shame, of white knuckling and folding chairs, the behavioral treatment with the strongest evidence for meth turns out to be reward. Big surprise. A system that says over and over, you can do this. Let's focus on your wins, not all on the losses. And it's in a language that recut the recovery brain can actually hear. You did the thing, and it counts. Door number two, reduced use as a real outcome. This is where managed use and the tapering live. For most of the history of addiction treatment in this country, there was only one finish line. Total abstinence. Researchers had to measure everything against it. Even the FDA has historically wanted abstinence as the benchmark for approving new addiction medications, which sounds pretty rigorous until you realize what it hides because in 2025, the National Institutes of Health shared the results of a huge study. Researchers pulled 13 clinical trials, over 2,000 people who had sought treatment for methrococaine and looked at what actually happened to them. Three groups emerged from that. People who use whose use stayed the same, people who cut way down without stopping, and people who stopped completely. And two things jumped out. First, more people managed to cut way down, about 18% than managed to stop completely, about 14%. Cutting down is simply a rung more men can reach. Second, and this is the heart of it, the men who cut down got measurably better. Their cravings dropped by 60%, their drug seeking dropped by 41%, their depression eased, their daily lives improved. Yes, the men who stopped completely improved. Nobody's disputing that. And the men who cut down were recovering too, in real time, in real bodies. The old model would have marked every one of them that cut down a failure. Even the head of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the most cautious voice in really all of America addiction science, says this way out loud now. In 2025, she wrote publicly that across study after study, people who reduce their use show real improvements, less depression, less cravings, fewer legal problems, better relationships, better sleep, cutting down counts. In 2021, researchers pulled two clinical trials, over 200 people in treatment for Methuse disorder, and asked a question almost nobody had bothered to ask. Which outcomes during treatment actually predict how well someone is living years later? And here's what they found out. Complete abstinence during treatment did not predict long-term life functioning. The gold standard, the one door, did not predict who was actually living well down the road. Other measures did a better job, like the longest continuous stretch of non-use a person reached. The study said plainly that there is a lack of evidence for using total abstinence as the definition of success. So what do managed use and tapering actually look like? Managed use means a man with support sets deliberate boundaries around his use. Less often, lower risk settings. Planned, planned, right? Planned use instead of compulsive. The goal is shrinking the harm and often shrinking the use itself over time. Tapering, structured reduction means stepping down gradually instead of demanding a cliff jump on day one. And I'll be honest with you, because honesty is the whole brand here, because we want you to know the research on formal meth tapering programs specifically is thinner than the research on contingency management. This is true. But what we have is the reduced use evidence I just walked you through, which tells you that movement in the right direction produces real benefit. And I can tell you this anecdotally from my program. Tapering off reduced use gives men a sense that there is an answer, a way out, a light at the end of the tunnel. Reduction really does work. Every man who goes from daily use to weekend use has recovered five days a week in of his own mind, right? The research now says that that actually counts. It's almost three four years now of me sitting with men in this work. And I'm gonna tell you it does count. Door number three, what the people in the room actually want. So this one matters to me, maybe more than any study, because it is about listening. In early 2025, a study surveyed 100 people who use meth and asked them, in their own words, what does recovery look like to you? Here's the tension inside the answers. And I love this because it is so human. About two-thirds agreed with the traditional statement that recovery means stopping all mood and mind altering substances. That old story lives in them. Okay, I carry it sometimes too, but when the researchers asked which outcomes were absolutely essential to their recovery, listen to what they said. Staying out of legal trouble, 92%, stable employment, 82%, better quality of life, 80%, stable housing, 78%, better coping skills, 78%, better relationship, 75%, thinking clearly, less depression, less stress, more hope, better sleep. Not one of those can be measured in a urine screen. People with lived experience are telling us that recovery is a whole life. And a treatment system that only measures molecules in urine is measuring the smallest part of the story. Let me bring this home to you because chemsex is this whole other terrain, right? Meth for us was rarely just about the drug. It was welded to sex, connection, belonging, to the internet, in our pockets, to the loneliness, which means abstinence only messaging for gay men often fails twice, once as a drug treatment and once as sexual health. The harm reduction tradition understands this and it understood it early. Because there's a pair of studies followed over 200 meth using men who have sex with men through community treatment programs that delivered solid, evidence-based therapy from an explicitly harm reduction stance. Men did not have to pledge abstinence at the door to receive care. Here was the outcomes less use, less severe addiction, better HIV care. This is the lineage of the programs like the Stonewall Project in San Francisco. It's built on the belief that not every man is ready, willing, or able to pursue abstinence today, and that the first job is to keep him alive and moving him toward health. More recently, 2024 review looked at harm reduction programs built specifically for chemisex among men who have sex with men. One pilot program stood out, it's 76% of the men completed it. And notice this 74% of them reached abstinence on their own inside a harm reduction program. 74%. Nobody demanded abstinence at the door, and most of the men walked toward it anyway. That finding does not surprise me because shame. Shame is a horrible motivator and a worse teacher. When a man is told he is welcome, only if he is perfect, he's going to hide. When he is told he is welcome as he is, he shows up. And showing up is where every recovery I have ever witnessed actually started. And showing up produces long-term results. Harm reduction and abstinence are not enemies. And very often harm reduction is the road that leads a man to abstinence. Wide enough to walk at your own pace, but with the guardrails, right? Instead of trapdoors on the outside. Abstinence is a door. And for some of us, it is the right one. It was for me. There are men I work with whose relationship to myth is such that any use reopens a whole wound. And they know it. And for them, substance-free living is it. The research agrees that abstinence, where a man can reach it and sustain it, does bring the strongest gains. Nothing here is taking away from that. And the same body of research says the room has other doors. Contingency management, backed by 26 of the 27 studies, now covered by Medicaid in California, reduced use, validated across 13 clinical trials as a path to less craving, less depression, more life, harm reduction programs for men like us that keep men engaged, keep men alive, and often enough walk them all the way to substance-free living anyway. The one door model asks, Are you clean or are you dirty? I do not even use that word, as you know, because you are never dirty, whether you're using or whether you're not. The mini door model many doors model, ask a better question here. Are you moving toward the best and highest version of yourself? Are you improving at least 1% every day? And if you are listening to this and you are still using, here is what I want you to take from this. You do not have to be ready for everything to be ready for something. The evidence says that that something counts. Fewer days, safer settings, a support group you actually attend, an honest conversation with a counselor, with a sponsor, with a coach, with a therapist, a doctor who will work with you where you actually are, instead of a book telling you where you should be. If a program shamed you out the door because you could not promise forever on day one, that was the doorway failing. Not you. It's not you. You're carrying the blame for a system that doesn't work for you. If you are absent and it is working, keep on trucking. And if you are somewhere in the messy middle, you're using less than you were, but more than you want, I want you to hear this. The middle is recovery too. The researchers finally caught up to what your body already knew. Every step out of the fire is worth something. The man who used to disappear for four days and now disappears for maybe one or none of them, you've changed your life. You're in your way. Whether or not a fucking spreadsheet calls you a success or not. This room has many doors. Some open into abstinence, some open into less, some open into not yet. Come back tomorrow, we'll leave the light on. Here's something to keep you safe. Whichever door you choose today, know this. The room isn't locked. Everything I cited today is waiting for you in the show notes. You can read these studies yourself, bring them to your therapist, your doctor, your group, your sponsor, whoever needs to see this. The science is there. For once, I'm using science. Not the world according to Dallas, but this is the world according to me too. So now, if you made it through this, I hope you enjoy my conversation with Sickams. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas. Very special episode and the first in-person recording I've ever done for the Aftermath Podcast. Amazing. I'm so glad to be part of this. We are here in LA and in a historic park, apparently, we just got chased out of.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

See a hummingbird.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

And a hummingbird. Yep. There we go. It's a good omen. Um I'm here with my special guest, Thickums.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Thickums de Loncrae. It's French. Dubois.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Thick's has a very interesting um Instagram page. And it's called Homeless in LA. Um Thick's has a story that we're going to find out in just a minute. Um but while I'm here in LA, I came here for a Kimsex conference. I thought I would try to get out and meet some people. And I was given Thick's name. And number. Hey.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Can't leave the party without a number. Right. That's probably the only number I'll get while I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

So let it be the best one. But a bum. All right. Okay. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe your history um with drug use or anything else you found would be interesting and pertinent here?

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Uh yeah. Um, well, I'm 43 now, but um not too long ago. I was half the weight that you see me now. I was gorgeous. Still am on the inside. But I had everything. I had um two houses, um, two cars, a husband, a very good life for myself. And then um my mother passed away, um, got divorced because of some issues that I discovered after the fact that we've gotten married. Uh just pretty much being used to get somebody's papers. And um I slowly st started my downward spiral into my decline through meth.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Through meth.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

So your your mother died, and then you found out your your husband was using you for papers? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

It's a lot it's a lot, especially when you grow up, you know, in the foster care system and all you're doing is looking for a family and a place to call home.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

So you grew up in foster care?

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Yes, predominantly.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

In LA?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Uh in San Francisco. Oh, okay. So how did you live in LA? Uh um the rent is the rent was cheaper back then.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

That's the truth. So you got into meth as a coping mechanism, it sounds like. How did you discover it?

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Um, believe it or not, my brother was the first one to have me try it uh in my early teens. I tried it one time, I didn't like it, and that was it for many, many years, decades. Um uh I found it when I went to go on Grinder. It was one of my first experiences. And I didn't know, I mean, I had a familiarity of what it was because I did it with my with my brother once. Um and uh but with this one, it was a little bit different because it was somebody that I wasn't related to. And it made me feel very euphoric. And um it made me feel, I don't know, appreciated. I've always grew grew up kind of self-conscious in my body. Um, even though it looked nicer back then. Uh appreciate what you have when you're younger people, okay. Appreciate it. Um but uh it was at that point that um I just was looking for I don't know, looking for someone to appreciate me, looking for some looking for love in all the wrong places.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Yeah, interesting. Acceptance. Acceptance. So as a foster child, you were probably always looking for that too. Is that right? Clock it. Clock that one. So then growing up, then you find a husband, and the message is you're not appreciated, you're not wanted, you were just used.

unknown 24:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Yeah. That's right. It's not it wasn't just the husband, it was also the the fact that he came with a family. So I got his family as well, which is great. Oh, nice. For as well, for as long as it lasted, it was great.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Hmm. Did the family turn on you in the divorce, or did you have still have a relationship with them?

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Yes, I lost connection with them. I mean, they're it's it's blood is sticking water, I guess, and so I'm not blood related, and so yeah, therefore, I mean, yeah, it's yeah, yeah. So looking for love, looking for love, looking for a place.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Looking for acceptance. Looking for acceptance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

I I when you're on meth, uh, I think that people that you're with um don't really care so much about your body as long as it's it's acceptable to them. Yeah. So I didn't have to like do as much, even though I was gorgeous. Um I I filmed myself doing things. So I was like, you know what, you had you got it. Okay, for real. Um and I still I still have some of those videos actually that I I would look at every now and then to help me stay off of meth, which has really helped as great.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Interesting. Interesting. So want to share that. Um it's interesting because uh the my clients, we just had this like challenge of deleting videos and pictures from their meth days because it was triggering. But you're saying you kept some videos from your meth days to combat the euphoric recall, I guess. Is that right? Absolutely. Absolutely. So were they terrible? What was it about them?

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Just I I just knew my angles. Um I don't know. It's uh I I grew up watching a lot of porn, um, as you know, kids back in in the 80s and 90s did, or um watching a lot of um independent films uh from like gay areas, you know, England. Um and so I just uh in watching porn, that's how I would deliver my sex to people in the same manner as in the same ways. And so I knew how to work the the camera in certain angles to make me look better. Yeah. But watching it made you not want to do that. Right, because it was like I was reliving the same experience.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Mm-hmm. I can still get off on it because it was that good. You know when you go back to the same porn video? You know what I mean? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Like it'll get you there. I thought you meant you watched the video to make you not want to use.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

It kept me from using because I was already living that euphoric memory.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Oh, yes, okay. That makes sense. Gotcha. Oh, okay. Alright. Yeah. I mean, look, everybody has a different way, different technique of keeping themselves from going into that physical relapse.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Not only that, it was it was because um I was bringing people more people to the house, but then like their energies were in a match with my energy. And you gotta be careful about the energy bringing to your house, people, okay? Yeah, even when you're using. Especially when you're using, yeah. And um, so I never really understood why people smoke methylone until yeah, I got through towards the late latter parts of the years of doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

Yeah, you know, there's a progression I see a lot where you start out the parties and with other people, and then like you're saying, toward the end of the use, I see a lot of men just using by themselves. When one is you never know what you're getting, there's a lot of paranoia and psychosis, right? Or the guy shows up, he's been up for three days, and he's not gonna fuck anyway. Right? He just needs a place to crash. Pretty much. Right. And so you get so tired of that. Um even in larger cities, you know, it happens that way. Uh, that you just start using on your own.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Using your own.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Just using on your own.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Oh, okay, gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Because you can live in the porn and not ever be disappointed because you're living on that screen, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:37

I r I remember it would take um hours to to bust a load. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like, golly. Yeah. And so, but I I preferred being with people. I never understood why until later, like I said later later on, I was like, it's a party drug. It's a party drug. You should be around people. And then um, but yes, they all come with their own baggage, they'll steal from you, they'll try to out outwake you. You know, they were waiting for you to fall asleep so they can rob you. Is what's happening here.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, yeah. That happens a lot. Okay, so you get into the this train is fucking relentless over here. It is always loud here in LA. It's always loud in LA. Nervous system is wrecked. Okay, okay. Anyway, maybe it's not too loud in the in the microphones. But so you're in the scene. How long did that last?

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Okay, so I was in the scene for maybe four or five years, maybe? I don't know. Maybe I'm gonna say at least four years.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Okay, so you were in the scene for about four years. Now you said you started with two houses, cars, a husband, and what did you end up with?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Zero. Yes, loss of foreclosure. My husband wouldn't sign the papers.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I see sell it. I see. Okay, and then so you're in the meth scene. So what made you what was your turning point to start to get out?

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Uh my turning point in starting to get out of meth. I mean, I t I tried so many times to to get sober. Um What did you try? What methods? Um quitting cold turkey. Um not not smoking as much, just trying to condense that I was smoking into a few days, just trying to get more disciplined into it. Yeah. You know, I only smoke when I do this. Right. I only smoke on my office when I'm not working. Yeah. Um, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

But um, sorry, remind me what a person was.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah, no, what what was your what what methods did you try? So you tried cold turkey, you tried tapering off, you tried managed juice.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Yes, I tried managed juice, and that was pretty much it. Oh, and yeah, um I also tried just um smoking marijuana. Oh, okay. Yeah, I tried other other forms, drinking um poppers only. Um those things didn't work. Um I remember going to my dealer and saying, hey, you know, I I'm good, you know, I don't need anything, I'm trying to quit. Right. And then he'd offered me a special deal.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Of course he did.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah. You know what really helped me quit though was um using the test strips. Really? Yeah. Everything has fentanyl in it. Oh. Yeah. And I I've seen people like OD. Yes. And it's just like if it smells like paint, it's not good.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Is that is that the sign?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

That's one of the signs. Uh that's for mostly for coke though.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

With meth, I just I just I would I would try it and test it and kept coming with that little red line and I was.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

And you wouldn't use it. Did you test that before you left the dealers? Can you do that?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Because you're you're you're getting it in passing.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

He's in the car, you're outside, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

So you have exchange. Test it later and then throw it away. I'm guessing, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah, waste the money. Oh, well then I I I'd call him and say, Hey, what's going on with this thing? And he'd say, Oh, it's not that, don't worry about it. I've never seen that. And you tried to explain the the chemistry of it to me, and I'm just like, I just want to get high. It's too much, it's over my head. Right. Um, but I was just too paranoid at that point. Yeah. Because I've seen people do, like I said before.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

So when you started seeing the fentanyl, you started you slowed down. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It it it's scary. Okay. So then at what point were you is it unhoused or is it homeless? Uh I'm unhoused. Okay. Um I'm in a shelter now. You're in the shelter. Okay. So how long have you been there?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Um it's been three months now.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Three months.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

And then you start so did you you mentioned APLA, which is um God, now it's le leaving me what it stands for.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Uh APLA. AIDS Prevention Los Angeles. Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

AIDS Prevention Los Angeles. That's how I met Dickham's uh Joe from there. Joe has been on the podcast with Dr. C. Uh they we did a podcast on um Weekend Warriors.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

So Weekend Warriors?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Okay, I'm gonna check that out.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah, it's very good.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

He's a celebrity. I had no idea I was being gonna read by him today. No, now I f I follow you on Insta. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Thank you. Um okay, so you you became homeless and unhoused, and you're in a shelter.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

So Oh, we should talk about that. Yeah, I was I was working and getting high at my workplace. I was working graveyard shift in an office building. Okay. And um, yeah. I I had to stop that um yeah, before they caught me.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

So then what what why did you and when did you start your Instagram page being homeless in LA?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Um I started uh How to Be Homeless in LA about six months ago, uh, because of Malik Henry um and uh one of my workers from um Sharp. It's a homeless prevention organization. Okay. Um they both recommended that I chronicle my journey and that maybe my journey might be able to help others.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Nice. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

So what about your journey as a model for others?

SPEAKER_02 34:30

What about my journey as a model for others? I think it's the outlook, I think it's the perspective. Um, I think it's the resources that I provide on on the page for housing.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

For housing, for laundry, for restrooms, for showers. Nice things that people really need.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

There's not enough public restrooms, as you can imagine. Even for those that are housed. I mean, you're out there outside, you use a restroom, nobody will let you use a restroom of a store. I mean they would never let us they wouldn't let us here, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

They wouldn't even let us know.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah, there's no restrooms in the park. There's no restroom in the park, they won't even let us sit down on the bench here. But no, little things like that. If you're out here, you need to go to the restroom and you got you got the bubble guts. I mean, what where are you gonna go? What you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

So I think that's what people take from my page is more or less um where things are, where the resources are, and how to get access to them.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Wow, I love it. So if I'm I mean, if I'm home if I'm in house in LA, I need to know where where can I do my laundry? Where's the next food bank?

unknown 35:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

How do you qualify? Oh yeah, how do I qualify?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

You gotta have your qualifications, gosh. What do you need to qualify? Um, well, you've had you have to be um interviewed, there has to be an intake done on you uh to see um what what your score is under a system. There's a matrix um software that they have that everybody uses here in Los Angeles. I think it's called the CLMX, something like that. I'll have to find out for you. It's okay. Um but yeah, they they'll it they'll give you an intake, they'll interview you, and they'll ask you so many questions, um, and based on your answers is how you're scored and how you're categorized and how soon you'll be able to get housing.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Wow. Priority list.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Yeah. So housing does not include the shelter then? Or does it?

SPEAKER_02 36:24

You know what they say, home sweet home, home is where the heart is. Um even if you're housed in a shelter, you can still be homeless because it's not your home. Right. You don't feel like that someone people are are checking on you every five minutes, every five minutes, 24-7. Every five minutes. They check on you? Sometimes 15 minutes if you're lucky. Really? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

They just open up the doors. They open up the doors just to see if anybody's doing anything in the room. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

They shouldn't be doing. So are you in a big room then with a lot of other people?

SPEAKER_02 36:54

I'm in a reconverted motel. Okay. Uh-huh. Uh funny. Uh uh a motel that I had smoked meth in. Oh, interesting. Full circle. Talk about a full circle moment. Am I right? So being in the same room where I used to smoke meth um has now been a place where I've called home as a shelter. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

So you share it with another person?

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Uh there's three-door room.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Three-door room.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

Yes, very comfortable mattresses.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Is that sarcasm or no, the very room? Shout out to Sunrise Shelter. Sunrise Shelter. Yep. Sunrise Shelter. Okay. So what are the distracted? So, okay. So you're in the shelter. Are you working toward then I'm I'm I'm assuming working toward getting out of there? Do you have a plan? Does somebody like help you with some type of long-term plan to get into housing?

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Absolutely. Um Dolly Cordova from Sharp is actually helping me. Um they along with the intake that they'll do with you, they'll offer you objectives uh and things that you want to work on, and they'll work with you as long as you have uh those objectives. And once you're done with those objectives and you get trimmed out of the program. And so I meet with Dolly Cordova once a week. Um and I get my medication through Sharp. Um it turns out that I've been diagnosed with hyposchizoaffective disorder.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Uh didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

So a lot of people that um may be drawn to doing drugs like that maybe have what I have. Who's to say? Um, I'm not a doctor, I can't diagnose you. But they can at Sharp. That's S-C-H-A-R-P. Yeah, we'll put the link in the show notes. Yes. Um, but yeah, so I meet with them, and so it's because of them that I've been able to get an organizer, um, get work. I'm working now as an Uber driver. Oh. At the shelter, they allow you to to live there and stack up your bread, okay, so to speak, your money uh for six months. And you're only allowed to be at the shelter for six months.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Oh, okay. So how long have you been there? There's always a catch.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Uh uh three months now.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Three months. And you're making money through Uber.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

I am.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Very nice. Like saving. Very nice. So you are there rules about are you tested there, drug tested?

SPEAKER_02 39:14

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Yes, yes, yes. They they test you if they suspect that you're under the influence of something, they'll test you right there on the spot. If you're on meth and phenomines, they give you three chances to get off of meth, which is a big which is a lot. Um, because we had a roommate uh who was on meth, and we never got uh an ounce of sleep. He's always going in and out of the room. Um but yeah, so they're they're aware of the issue, and uh you do get three chances at the shelter to to get sober.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Do you go to meetings or how how how do you work your recovery?

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Um, I used to go to meetings through APLA. Okay. Through through Joe. Okay. Uh they've stopped the meetings because of budget cuts, thanks to you know who. Um, yeah. And so I've tried going to other meetings and groups, but um I'm pretty good at just managing it on my own right now at this moment in time.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

How do you manage it? How what keeps you sober?

SPEAKER_02 40:12

I keep busy.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

I keep busy with work. Um whenever I'm feeling like the need to do something, and don't get me wrong, I've I've I've messed up a couple of times by relapsing. Um then feeling really remorseful afterwards. Uh it was during those times I luckily had the meetings to go to through Joe, our friend Joe. Um but with all the budget cuts being what they are, and other meetings, I just um I'm not really comfortable there. I think there's a lot of energy that's associated with meth and those people that are still on it, which triggers me to get back on it. And so uh meetings like that aren't really the best place for me.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

For you, particularly. Okay. So what kind of services do you get at APLA then through through Joe? Joe runs the Chemsex um portion of APLA.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yes, there's a program, it's um an eight-week program where they they test you for methamphetamines uh three times a week. And it's a program I'm forgetting the vocabulary term for it, but it's where they they they provide you with incentives.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Oh, yes, um contingency? Contingency management.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Management, yes. Um, and so I graduated that program. Um and then when I relapse, I have to go back into the program. But I'm grateful for it. Um they give you gift cards after your eight weeks so you can get clothing, soap, shampoos, anything to eat if you're homeless on the street. Really nice. So it helped you. Oh absolutely. And you asked me a question before that. What uh uh what do you do for your recovery? Yes. Um what I do for my recovery. Um like I said, I keep busy with work. Uh I completed a semester of school last semester. Okay. Not doing anything this semester. I'm only two classes away from my associate's degree. Wow. Did you believe that? All these years later, at 43.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

That's very nice. What are you what are you planning on getting your degree in?

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Um, it'll be something in horticulture. I'm a landscaper by trade. Oh, okay. Yeah, I do like that.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Nice. Yeah. Very nice.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

You gotta stay busy. You have to stay busy and keep yourself distracted, especially if you're on on drugs like that. But I think the real thing that that kept me is keeping me sober is um the fact that I've seen somebody pass away. I saw somebody pass away. Um on it, I tried I called 911 and um I've had to deal with the guilt because I said that my my friend had OD'd and they never came, they never showed up. And so now I realize you're not supposed to say that you're you're someone's OD'd, you're supposed to say that someone is having trouble breathing or something like that. There are key terms you have to say to the cops. Really?

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Yes. Yes. Why is that? That's why I go to therapy now to help release that guilt too. Yes. This was a nice young man. Uh gorgeous. Uh and um Wow. Uh yeah, so I think that's what's helping me stay sober.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. It's a yeah, that has to be traumatic. And you see a therapist, you're saying once a week. Is that through APLA or is it?

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Um, I actually was going through APLA. The thing is you can't double dip your resources. Okay. So I'm getting my sources through Sharp now, but APLA did provide me with a counselor. Yes, the therapist, amazing, amazing therapist. Really? Yes. You need to be heard. You need to get your your voice out there, you need to let them know what's going on so that way you feel you have someone that can relate to you and really help you with providing you with the tools and resources on how to get through something like this. So, where do you find your acceptance now? Uh I found it through Joe's group while it was still going on uh party wise. Um and my acceptance now. Now that that's been terminated because of budget cuts, um, it comes from myself. I finally got gotten to that point where I can say and look look in myself in the mirror and say, you know what, yes, you've done it. You're enough, you're okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it had been a long time.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Yeah. So what what was your process like for that? For for finding your self-acceptance.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Well, the name thickums. Um when I was going through my recovery, and this would be like uh um getting sober cold turkey. I watched Survival of the Thickest. Um The Flying Nun. Oh. Um, really positive and body body positive um things to watch on TV. Um that's what led me to the name Thick's. In the show, Survival of the Thickest, she refers to she's a clothing designer for bigger people, men and women. Oh, okay. She calls her her supporters, people that her customers, Thickums. Uh attacking them with my name. Okay. Yes. You could be whoever you want to be. You can change your name whenever you want to. That's right. Yes. Who cares who who who laughs? It's it's for you. This is the biggest I've ever been. Okay. I mean, I was bigger than this and I've lost weight, but um, I was I was your size. I was the size of Dallas Bragg once. And I was gorgeous. Trade. Where are you at?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Um, okay, okay. So on the page, uh I guess the who could also use your pay Instagram page would be people in uh working in the field of homelessness, trying to help homeless people find resources too, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Absolutely. So um Sharp helped me find a place for housing, and then I posted that place on housing on my Instagram um with Sharp's information on it, or with other organizations that are dealing are working with that program. Um yeah, that one got me a lot of hits on Instagram. Yeah. Um also if you're homeless and you have a car, there's places you can be in your car, um, a private lot secured with security officers. Really? And restrooms and showers. So you could be housed in your car. Okay. We're not gonna call it home, but we'll call it a house. It's something. It's something. Yeah. I'm all about the tiny house movement too. I want a tiny house. Yeah. There's a lot of dilapidated buildings here in Los Angeles that are vacant that we have the many resources to um to fix up and house people in, but yeah, politics being what they are.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah. Yeah. So three more months in sunrise shelter. Yes. Three more months of Ubering.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

What do you think will happen after that?

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Um, well, I'm hoping to get into stable housing. Um there are people that have approached me that have beds available, but they want so much money in rent. Okay. $1200 a month. So $1200 a month in rent for a bed um in a shared room is is kind of you know, you it sounds like a lot, but it's LA. So for what you're getting. Yeah. And everything's is fully is fully furnished. You have a washer and dryer, there's a kitchen there. So it's I think it's very, very European. You know, there's a lot of those things where you get you get your room where you get everything else with it.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So what will happen then? So what happens after three months if you don't get a a space? Uh I'm gonna get a space. You are gonna get a space.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

I'm gonna get a space. Uh yes. If if not, um I think the shelter will let me or maybe I can find another shelter to go into. Um that's the fear. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

I don't know. And that's why the system is kind of broken. You just don't know where you go after you graduate.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Right. There's no transition plan.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

We just don't know. But that's why they give you that much much time to save your money for six months. Yeah. So you can afford your first month's rent and your last your deposit.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah. That's the idea. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Okay.

unknown 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

So if it's like three thousand dollars, you know what I mean? You have enough and then you're supposed to be able to make it after that. Mm-hmm. So I think that's the plan. Yeah. Yeah, I've got some money saved up, so Okay. About fifteen hundred, so far. Yeah. But we have expenses. Right. But they do give you three three square meals a day at the shelter. Okay. And um you know, and laundry services. They do. Yes, they do. Okay. So you have to be able to qualify for these programs. But um, if you take yourself to any available emergency room uh that's willing to intake you, um, you know, you tell them that you're hearing voices, um, and then they'll intake you for put you on a seven-day hold. And then from there that's when they'll put you into a shelter.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Really? This is good information to know as far as how to work the system. Work the system.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

They're working it on us all the time.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

All right.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Am I right? You're right. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

So if I'm in LA and I find myself homeless today, I just got evicted. What would be the first thing to do?

SPEAKER_02 49:13

If you found out you're evicted today, the first thing you'd want to do is go get a gym membership so you can take showers just in case. Yeah. Okay. And you can have a place to be. The next thing you want to do is you want to take your driver's license and your social security card over to the TDD office. Not not TDD office, I'm sorry. Um, to the Department of Social Services. Okay. So you can get your GR and your food stamps. Okay. What's GR? General relief. Okay. Uh, which is about two hundred dollars a month, I believe. General relief. And three hundred and ninety dollars in food stamps. Okay. Um, the first thing you want to do. Uh after that, you want to go to um Sunrise Shelter. Um I'll give you the information for that so you can leave it in your caption. Okay. Um, and then they'll do an intake with you. You have to know what to say so you can qualify. Um, if you don't qualify under just having because they they give you a psychiatrist, they want to meet with the psychiatrist when I first got into the shelter, and that's how I got diagnosed. But it was actually um somebody who helped me because I I didn't know what to say, because you know you're you're homeless, you're incoherent, you don't have a a watch anymore, you don't know what time of day it is, you just you're you're in survival mode. Wow. But um you're hearing voices, uh, you have thoughts about walking on the freeway, say things like that, and that's how you get in.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

And these things are true. People people I mean, you see people talking themselves on the train and stuff like that. These are suicidal ideations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Well, especially if you're using myth. Especially the myth that's out there now.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

I I can tell you stories about things I've heard when I was on meth. Yeah, I thought I was being haunted by a ghost.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah, I mean, it's common. Very common. Psychosis, especially now with the myth that's out there. Um, yeah. Well, I just think it's great what you're doing. It's great what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Oh my god, you reach so many people. Thank you. You've seen his followers? Insane. We love it. We love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, we want everybody to follow you and watch this.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Please follow me on how to be homeless in LA or under the real thickcums. The space, real space thickums, t-h-i-c-c-um s.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

And we'll put that in the show notes. Um, I think it's very helpful. And, you know, even in a small city like I'm in Charlotte, where I was homeless.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Ooh, how's that? How's it been going on?

SPEAKER_00 51:34

It was very, it was just, it was very um i difficult to navigate. You know, even in a small city, the the resources are just siloed. You know, there's not one place to go to say, you know, it's a but now we have a number, I think it's 211 or something like that, that you call, and it's supposed to be just an integrated continuum of care kind of system, and they will get you to where you go. But, you know, even just navigating the bus for me was difficult. I would get on the right bus but the wrong direction in like shit like that, and then they'd make me late for work, or then I wouldn't have a job anymore, and it was just just like it was it was difficult. And then what I remember one day I traveled all the way, it took me all day to get across the city to the um Social Security office because I needed a Social Security card. Stood in line for like an hour and a half to two hours, and they closed.

unknown 52:31

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

I didn't get anything. I had nothing. That was all day, you know, starving. Yeah, yeah. It's just we it something like you're doing, I think, and using social media is just perfect. And I think it's probably helping a lot more people out here than what you m might realize.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

That's exactly what Malik Henry said. And I just want to encourage people out there that if you have a friend that's experiencing homelessness, offer them a shower, offer them to do a load of laundry. Um, those things like things like that really help a lot. Yeah. People always ask, what can I do? What can I do? Just be put yourself in their shoes. Yeah, yes. But a sh a shower and some laundry is I mean, you don't have to let me sleep in your house, but a shower would be amazing. Right. And some laundry, thank you so much. A shower can make such a difference. You know, a haircut. Yeah. You know you know how good you feel after you get a haircut. You feel like you got your integrity back?

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah. Things like that really help a lot. Yeah. So there's always a way. It doesn't have to cost you very much money at all. Or just a listening ear.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

A listening ear.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Mm-hmm. I love it. Am I right?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Anything I missed today that you wish we would have touched on that you like to get out there?

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Um, self-love, self-acceptance um are the most important things you can do if you're trying to get sober. Um, you don't need the meth. You are enough. Um, you are sexy. Uh you do sometimes the sex is better by yourself. Am I right? Because if you've had bad sex, you know what I'm talking about. Um other than that, I think that's pretty much it. Know that you're enough. Know that you can do it. Take your time, take a breath, stay focused, and get disciplined.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I love it. And congratulations on your recovery.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Thank you very much. Thank you. It's people like you and watching your Instagram that have helped me stay sober. So thank you. It's true. We need education and we need more public restrooms outside. Yes, we do. For everybody, not just the unhoused. And we need me too. And you know what? We need a better system. You were talking about people in Charlotte and how you went about things and how there's like only one place to get numbers like 211. Those numbers don't help anybody. We we have 311 for us. Oh and it is not the business, it's not the same. Yeah. Um, and so we need more nonprofit organizations doing things to help people, more charities. Just coordinate. Yeah, we need our council members to do to do seven, but you know, words into real action.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. Thank you. Thank you so very much for taking time for me today.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Thickums from Mayor, you're very welcome. Nice meeting you.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Nice meeting you too. Oh, finally in person. All right, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you have any comments, please leave them on YouTube or Spotify. You can reach Thickums. I'm going to put his Instagram low his Instagram handle in the show notes. If you have a question for me, you can reach me anywhere at any time on social media. Have a great week. Thickums out.