EP 3:39 Late-Bloomers and Chemsex with Darrell

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/late

In this episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, Dallas Bragg sits down with Darrell Martin, an LCSW, transformational psychotherapist, and musician based in New York City, for a conversation about what happens when gay men come out later in life and find themselves swept into chemsex. Dallas shares his own story of coming out at thirty-six and the relentless drive to "make up for lost time" that pulled him toward crystal meth — a drive Darrell sees echoed in the aging gay men he treats, men who arrive in his office carrying the added weight of believing they should have known better. Together they trace how the illusion of validation works on older men: the house, the money, the sudden flood of attention, the pharmaceutical props that sustain a manufactured virility. They name the loneliness underneath it, the way rejection by the broader gay population lands the same way on a fifty-year-old late bloomer as it does on a young Black or brown man, and how chemsex offers both of them a subculture where they finally feel wanted.

The conversation moves from the psychological to the practical. Dallas reframes dopamine as a molecule of anticipation rather than reward, explaining why men stay glued to Grindr for hours in rooms full of other men, and why euphoric recall retains such vivid, full-body power years into recovery — a phenomenon he still encounters at the edges of sleep, eight years out. Darrell points to that anticipatory surge as the real intervention point, the moment before the pickup. They discuss why crystal meth carries the highest relapse rate of any drug and why chemsex recovery raises it further: you aren't only surrendering a substance, you're grieving an identity. Dallas makes the case for harm reduction and tapering over rigid abstinence, argues that safeguards must replace willpower because willpower runs out late at night, and describes the work of detangling sex, work, and connection from the drug. Both land on the same foundation — willingness, community, and the shift from instant to delayed gratification. Darrell's contact information will be included in the show notes, and he'll return for a future episode focused specifically on the experiences of gay men of color navigating crystal meth.

Contant Darrell:

Websites: https://darrellmartinconsulting.com/

https://artsnyc.org/

http://darrellmartin.org/

Email: darrellmartin1@gmail.com

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Dallas Bragg

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Okay, what is the first step I should take if I'm struggling with crystal meth or chemsex? And I say tell somebody. Just like you're saying find someone to share it with. You know, if you don't want to walk into a 12-step room, tell somebody, and all oftentimes it's the person you're most scared to tell, like mom or best friend. Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. Really excited today to introduce you to a new friend of mine, Daryl Martin. I'm going to introduce him here. Um today we're talking about the effects of late bloomers, in terms of those of us more seasoned gentlemen who came out later in life. Um, and of course, we're going to get into how that affects chem sex. And I can um personally identify with this because that's my story. That's what I did. Um, but Daryl is in New York City, and we're gonna, I'm gonna introduce him now. He is an LCSW and a transformational psychotherapist and musician whose work bridges emotional healing, creativity, and cultural insight. A proud Afro-Hispanic gay man. Yay, we need more Afro-Hispanic gay men on the show. Um, he bring he brings a deep commitment to serving individuals of all identities, orientations, and backgrounds, particularly those with complex life histories. With graduate training, trading training, training from New York University, and an undergraduate degree in entrepreneurial diversity studies and intersectionality. Wow, from the City University of New York. Daroy specializes in identity shifts, emotional breakthroughs, and life redesign. In both private practice and through his program Artist Reimagining Therapy and Systems Arts, which he co-founded with fellow Broadway artists turned clinical therapists. He provides accessible, system-focused mental health care to New York City's artist community. His clinical work spans assessments, substance dependency counseling, individual and couples therapy, polycule therapy, organizational psychology training, and group facilitation. Before his career as a psychotherapist, Daryl spent three decades immersed in the music and arts world. A graduate of a performing arts high school, he became part of New York's legendary ball scene through members of the House of Extravaganza, appearing in the groundbreaking documentary Paris as Bernie. His artistry extended to performing, writing, and producing for cultural icons, including BruPaul, Pink, and Cheryl Lee Ralph. During the COVID-19 pandemic, he launched a national program uniting therapists and artists to confront inequalities in mental health, further cementing his role as a leader at the intersection of creativity and healing. In 2024, Daryl received Crane's Magazine's 2024 Notable Leaders in Mental Health Care Award. Darrell is finishing his memoir, Scarred, Fierce, and Unbreakable: My Lessons in Pain, Pride, and Healing at NYC. Daryl continues to integrate his background in music, entrepreneurship, and psychoanalytic training to guide high-performing individuals, creatives, and culture shapers beyond achievement into true alignment with an emphasis on emotional wealth, legacy building, and personal sovereignty. He lives in New York with his husband, and together they have raised five wonderful children. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

It's a mouthful, isn't it? That's what happens when you stay on the planet for a while.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Well, you know what? A lot of people stay on the planet that long, but they don't accomplish those kinds of things either. Um yeah, this is I I I've said this season, season three, is the season of big names. And really I I count I count you as that, a big name here. Um really glad to have you and your expertise.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

I'm excited. Listen, I I'm excited to have this conversation with you. Um I don't think that this conversation um is really in the zeitgeist just yet, although um there has been a turn, certainly since I've been a young gay man, like the term daddies and bears and all of that has become part of the norm. And uh and although, you know, so we got these labels, but we're not talking about it. Like what is it like to be a daddy, uh, you know, an Asian gay man um in, you know, at this time in the country, in the cities, wherever people may be. Um so yeah, so I'm you know very excited to uh just kind of have this conversation, maybe do some exploration with you. Uh as you and I both identified earlier uh a couple of weeks ago that there is some scholarship um on this, but not a whole lot. Um so I really think that you and I and many other clinicians are really on the cutting edge, the sort of uh breakthrough of uh introducing this um as it relates to drugs and uh sex and all the many other uh things that age and gay men navigate. Um so yeah, I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, good, great. I am too. I am too because one one of the first when I was um before recovery and then right after, one of the things, one of the directions I was going to go in instead of this one, was to write a a handbook for older men who come out late in life. Because I wish so much I had had a guide, you know. I did have a therapist who helped me through the transition. Um, but it was different. It was it was there was so much to try to work through and process first, you know, that I couldn't get traction, you know, because I had gone all my life without a therapist, you know, and so I came out at 36. 2013, I was 36. Um, and you know, I'd never been to therapy. I had gone therapy one time, and he was the only person that I had come out to, he was the first person that I came out to, and I ended up in the mental facility that night for three days or however many hours, 72 hours, whatever it is that you have, you know, you check yourself in. Um because he'd, you know, and when I got there, the nurse was like, So, and this is how she said it. So, what's up with the gender confusion? You know, so I don't know where that came from, but whatever this therapist, whatever this therapist I had gone to gotta was all wrong. And he's a Christian, he was a Christian therapist, so um, but I, you know, I was just thrust into this community, this I don't know if it's a community anymore. I I I I just say want to say a population. There was a population of gay men that I was thrust into um in a world so separate from what I had been used to. And I I just I got eaten up by it. You know, there was so much that I hadn't handled yet, that I hadn't processed yet. And there was one thing going through my mind, and that was I have to make up for lost time. I have to make up for lost time.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

And that thing I I love that you're saying that because that is um one of the sort of mental uh attitudes of some of the age and gay men who that I work with who have come out late is making up for this lost time. And uh I I want to say, enter drugs, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Yeah. Because sort of those those feelings of um inadequacy, having to make up for lost time. Um drugs has a way of sort of quelling those uh inhibitions and those insecurities. And so it just makes um psychological sense, you know, sometimes uh because um I found that other people, you know, uh don't quite have the judgment around their use as much as my clients who are Asian gay men and you know got into you know using drugs uh sort of later stage in life. And you know, one of the things is that oh oh I know better. Like I'm an older gay man or I'm an older man. I I know I should know better. You know, how did I let myself get here? And I always say no one you know is born and says, okay, I'm gonna be a drug addict when I grow up. You know what I mean? Like so, so just sort of um orienting them around uh, of course, you know, drugs uh was an accessible, uh I I don't want to say easy, but certainly an accessible way of um navigating those feelings while in real time while you're in it. Because it's it's very different. Um, you know, when you're young and you decide, oh, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna, you know, party, I'm gonna do blah, blah, blah. You think you have all this time in the world. I, you know, I can always recover later, or yeah, it's gonna take me a few days or something like that. But gay men in general, um, uh age and gay men in general, I think they really feel this sort of sense of loss, uh, meaning that they've wasted time and they really want to catch up in a way. And I think that's what the drugs and and the alcohol included does. It it kind of quells the mind a little bit, eases the mind a little bit so that you can say, like, okay, I'm good, we're good, you know. Until the parties uh increase, the drugs increase, the sexual experiences begin to expand, and um and then there's this sort of perpetuating cycle because uh although they're in it and they're doing it, they still are very aware that they are older, you know. Um and so I think that also plays into the isolation around uh meth use and uh cocaine drugs in general, is that um I I've said this before, and I say this many, many times. Yeah, drugs, uh crystal meth again gives us the illusion of power. And um and one of the things is uh it's uh uh shame. I I was thinking about this uh podcast coming when I was coming to work today, and I was thinking about shame and addiction. And uh I've always posited that shame and addiction lives in secrecy. It it needs secrecy in order to bloom. But as soon as you start to spread the light, as soon as you start to talk about it with another gay man or a therapist or someone like yourself or myself, that uh from the very moment uh they begin to start talking about it, the healing begins. A lot of people think they have to be in therapy for years and you know, before the healing happens. But I'm of the school that healing can begin the moment you step into the room, the moment you start to tell another person. So it could be with us, like you and I, professionals, or it could be in meetings, in you know, a 12-step meeting or a recovery group. Um, but once they start to talk about it, all of a sudden the addiction doesn't quite have the hold, and the shame uh isn't as deep uh as it was before they said something. So that's sort of the miracle that you bring to the world, that I bring to the world, um, and many 12-step programs is kind of pulling that person. Um what are you you talk about the decompensation sort of bottom period, you know? And just by a client walking into the room or getting online with you and just talking, talking about who they are, how they're feeling, all of it like you can see the shifts. And I'm not gonna say that, you know, we both know that it's not uh magic, you know, they don't instantly become, but certainly the journey begins. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And one thing that I've I've said a lot is crystal meth, you know, and and you could say this for addiction, but for chemsex, it's like black mold, just like you're saying, it grows in the dark. Right. But once you start putting light on it, you know, it smothers it. It can't it can't grow. And like you're saying, for addiction, it releases the hold because it's not in secret. I I I would I think, I mean, this is the world according to Dallas, but in terms of secrecy, crystal meth has got to be the one that's kept in secret the most. You know? Yeah. I mean, opioids get all the attention. You know, marijuana, you can say marijuana, I smoke marijuana, I I have a drinking problem. Even heroin is kind of it it you're not even really I I don't know. I don't maybe it's because my world is smaller, but I don't even hear a lot about heroin anymore. But meth is just something that you want to keep in secret because it's so stigmatized.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Um and so I I've always asked in podcasts and otherwise, if okay, what is the first step I should take if I'm struggling with crystal meth or chemsex? And I say tell somebody. Just like you're saying find someone to share it with. If you don't want to walk into a 12-step room, tell somebody. And all oftentimes it's the person you're most scared to tell, like mom or best friend, right? Or partner. But guess what? They mu most of the time they already know. They already have their suspicions anyway. But getting it out of here and through through your mouth and sharing with somebody, like you said, what a what a burden that lifts. Yeah. You know, and then you can start the healing process.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Yeah. The other things is that, you know, uh crystal meth is an insidious drug, meaning that um I have found that uh sometimes people uh are able to hide it for long periods of time because uh you know, many people who um uh have used or before they got addicted to it, uh really could function on it. So they could go to work, they could, you know, get up in the morning, do what they need to do. Whereas, you know, the other drugs are like cocaine, you it you in order to keep the high, you need to keep reintroducing the drug and keep snorting. Heroin, you're gonna nod out, you know, at work. Alcohol, you're gonna, you know, smell and nod out. But uh crystal meth is what makes it particularly insidious, is that um, I mean, doctors prescribe Adderall and all sorts of methamphetamines um for people who are challenged with ADHD. And so, you know, a lot of the times before they get to my office, they've they've been going for a very long time. And in some ways, crystal meth has served them. Like I've had clients say, Oh, I'm able to get my work done, I'm able to concentrate. So, so yeah, so uh I'll I'll stop there with, but I I I wanted to put a plug in for uh like you said, crystal meth is is a little different from the other things um because of the insidious nature of the drug.

unknown 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, yes. Yeah, and you know the drug is no respecter of persons, crystal meth. You have the homeless man using it, you also have the CEO of a major company using it. And so the thing, these men come to me, they're highly successful in their life. I mean, running their business, their family, their friends, they're I don't know what they they have all this going, but they can't seem to stop using. And I tell them, they're like, why am I good at everything else but crystal meth? I said, You're good at crystal meth. You're you're functioning while using crystal meth. That's that's skill, right? Like you said, like it it's it is insidious in terms of you can maneuver it so that you only use enough to function. And you're using it as Adderall. Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Um, which is what a lot of heterosexual women that contact me are using it for. Keep their weight down, keep the house clean, keep the kids going where they need to go, feel better about themselves, have the energy it takes to be a woman in today's world. And it's not used for sex, but it's used for that. You know, it's like, I mean, it used to be bottled in the 50s, like mommy's little helper, and you know, amphetamines, right? Um the the problem is that crystal meth has now changed into this super meth, um, where it's highly psychosis provoking and paranoia provoking, and it's highly it's more addictive and it's more pure. And so we can't fuck around with it as much as we could. And that's what I'm seeing. These CEOs coming to me, these doctors, these psychiatrists, they're like, I don't know what's going on, but I can't, like I can't go, I can't stop going for days now. And it's beginning to be more out of control because the substance is different too. Um you know what I mean? Um yeah. So it's a pro yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 19:41

You you got I was just gonna say, uh, in addition to uh what we didn't have before was this sort of cross-pollination of drugs. Crystal meth and Viagra, crystal meth and cialis. Uh with cocaine, you know, years ago, if you did too much, you know, you get limp dick, you can't function.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

But because of uh all of these other pharmaceutical drugs that you can get, you know, from your doctor, um, and especially with aging uh gay men, it's very easy. Like you know, um it used to be a lot harder to get, you know, erectile dysfunction drugs, but now you can click on a website when you know, and have it delivered to your door. So uh that toll, like that drugs used to take, like uh uh for cocaine, for instance, um a lot of older gay men aren't seeing that, you know. They so if they start to, you know, get erectile dysfunction, they take a pill. So that can keep them going. And now they they're virile. You know, you and I were talking about virility and the illusion of virility, you know, on crystal meth.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, I I think Crystal Myth is the the perfect storm for a gay man, but especially an older gay man who has been closeted his whole life. You know, like for me, I had to pretend, I had pretended my whole life I was someone different, and now here's my chance to be free. But what but what I ran into, which is again, I think the other men that I talked to are the same a lot of times, is what I ran into was the population did not accept me. Like I I had this idea that this is where I belonged, and when I didn't belong, I spiraled out of emotionally saying, Where the hell do I belong then? I belong nowhere. And like you said earlier, enter drugs, enter crystal meth, because I'm older, I have a house, I have money, this is where I belong. Everybody Flocking to me now. Right. They can't get enough of me. Right. Yeah. And I have access to Viagra and Cialis and Trimix. You know? Let me just inject everybody's dick and we'll be hard for two or three hours. Um, and it just feels like I finally got what I wanted. This is the life I've been wanting.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Right. And that's true. I mean, uh, again, it when we walk towards something, we're walking away from something else. So that illusion of validation uh that we're getting, um, and I really call it an illusion of validation because, like you said, um aging gay men experience being exploited by younger gay men for the resources that they can provide, you know? Um and uh and like you said, I have money, I have a house. Um and I, you know, it it it's it's funny because um the same sort of questions that older gay men enter, like who come out late, um, are questions that young young gay men have as well. You know, meaning like they come into the world, even as young gay men, who am I, how do I fit, how do I necessarily fit the Chelsea boy, masculine, you know, Tama Finland uh imagery that we that we see. So you know, if I'm effeminate, if I'm a person of color, um now I'm dealing with with that, you know, as well. So um the questions are very similar, young and old. Interesting. Young and old. Um, but it's it's the the enter the drugs that we seem uh to find um instant answers. I call it add water and stir solutions. You know? As soon as you as soon as you you know they take the hit, they're like, okay. Yep. Um I I want to ask you a question about um I often uh work with clients um and when they tell me about their experience um with sex, particularly on crystal meth, um they talk about uh this phenomenon of being really horny and you know certainly seeking out the sex and wanting the sex, but even when they get it, they're so removed uh emotionally from it. So they'll be having sex thinking about the next conquest. Like when is this person gonna leave? Uh and maybe you can uh speak more from a personal experience of what that's like and what goes on.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Uh I I I think that that comes from we I I believe that we have a bit of a misunderstanding about the effect of dopamine. Like we call it a reward molecule, but it's really the anticipation of a reward. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

And and so that we 1200 times the the amount of dopamine gets released when you take crystal meth. And I believe that all of it, all of it is this anticipation of what I'm going to get. This is why we have men sitting around for hours on their phone looking for the next guy when they are surrounded by men. I need it's anticip I need more. I we're gonna have an orgy, we're gonna have this, we're gonna have that. And even when you're yeah, even when you're having sex, I when I when I was having sex, I could not stay off my phone. If I was topping, if I was bottoming, whatever it was, I I had this in my face. Right. On Grinder trying to find someone else. What if I miss the next hottest guy? Right? And and then and and then it even goes into the porn, the anticipation of the porn is that you'll see guys for hours trying to find the right porn to put on, or adjusting the settings of the of the picture and the color. And then then you've got Zoom, right? These Zoom rooms where you're all using together. There's this more and like who else is in the room, who else is in the room. So I believe it's we have to understand this dopamine, what it does is that we're never going to get there. You know, it's like it's why you you feel like you're gonna come for hours. You're right on the edge. I tweaked out on I tweaked out on that so many times. I would beat my dick to death because I was just right there. I I was I it would just give me a minute, just give me one more second. An hour goes by. You know? And this this I'm gonna get this reward, I'm gonna get this reward, I'm gonna get this reward. And so, and then you take more and more. And so I think that that's the disconnection. It is we just there's no presence because there's an anticipation, there's a desire for something else.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's so uh beautifully put and so helpful. Um so it's it's sort of uh what you're describing is this sort of anticipatory stage um that uh meth amphetamine keeps you in. Yeah. So um, and uh by staying in the anticipatory stage, you keep the dopamine going, both chemically and uh naturally. Um, but it it it really isn't about the actual uh fix itself. Yeah. And that that's interesting because that is a huge difference from other drugs. Whereas heroin, you hit it, you hit the sweet spot and you're nodding and all that stuff. So you've arrived at the place. Um, but with crystal meth, you never quite arrive. And it's this sort of cyclical experience of uh anticipation. That I mean, that's that's beautiful, uh beautiful Dallas. Um and I think it'll help other uh people who work uh with you know, people who are struggling with this challenge to understand the end because that that is um one of probably the most common thing I hear as a therapist is that like I'm on I was on my phone for five hours before that two-minute uh experience where the guy came over and left, and then I'm back on my phone, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah. And it's not a hundred percent, you know. I mean, you're you I I can hear the guys now writing in saying, now wait a minute, you know, when I use it, we fuck, and you know, that kind of thing. I it there are a small majority of men who seem to be able to take a certain amount just enough to get really horny and and and still get hard, too. They're the unicorn, they're the unicorn, they're the popular boys at the party. You know, they have the line because they they have they can get hard. Because you know, sometimes even with Viagra Cialis, you're you you can't get hard still. No, Trimix is different. But the thing about Trimix is how many times have I seen guys rush to the emergency room because they're injecting their dick while high, putting in too much, and their dick explodes almost, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Um, and so uh yes, I mean that's for the most part, that's it. And that is why also euphoric recall is so powerful when it comes to chemsex, is that it releases that dopamine, that anticipation gets so high that I'm gonna, this is the time. I'm gonna have an orgy, I'm gonna get gangbanged, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, you know, I all this stuff's gonna happen. You know, it's it's this this whole you're you you start thinking about it and your body starts releasing all that dopamine, all that adrenaline, and you're swept away by it. You're you know, you're just swept away, and then you're you just switch off into autopilot. This gets cut off because you know, arousal in and of itself shuts down the prefrontal cortex. So and this is a drug that's tied to arousal. So you mix the two together, you're not thinking. You're just not thinking. You're not in control.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

Right. I that that which brings us to the sort of the relapse nature of crystal meth, meaning that um understanding the anticipatory stage. So even before people pick up, like we always say, you picked up long before you picked up.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

Yeah. Right? Yeah, uh, you slipped long before you slip. Um and so uh thinking about it and helping people understand that this is sort of what's going on in my body right now, this anticipatory stage. Because um you can get that anticipatory dopamine before you even pick up the drug.

unknown 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Which then in turn, you know, brings you to the drug.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

That's right. Yeah. And that's where that that euphoric recall comes into play. And with crystal meth, everything has been etched and printed. Each each memory, each time you used, you really, it's hard to forget. And I could tell you, it's been eight years for me in August. And I still will, and it's that twilight time of when I'm lying down for a nap. I'll I nap every day, or I'm lying down for sleep, memory will a memory will flood in. Vibrant, such a vibrant, clear memory of using, you know, in some scenario with somebody. Because you just you it's not like blackout drunk, or like you said, nodding off with heroin, or you know, people who smoke marijuana all the time, they they can't they can't remember the the conversation they just had five minutes ago. You know, but with this, it's so etched into the brain, too, that euphoric recall has more power because you're right in it. It's like a like a putting on a real uh one of those what virtual reality masks is you're you're right back in it and you're in it too, and and like you said, the the the body, it's just a full body takeover. I call it you're being possessed. You know, you're possessed at that point. Um, and that's why that's why it's important to have your phone blocked, to not have access to user buddies. You know, this is why you put these safeguards in your life is because it gives you a pause and uh and a lot of times enough pause to wake up.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

To say, oh, whoa, whoa, you know, I'm gonna get out of this trance. And really think about what the next li what the next day or two is going to be like if I go use.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

That's right. That's right. That's right. Um, the ability to think it through, as we always say, um, you know, what's the next and uh again, that's the insidious nature is that uh a lot of the times people can function on it. So the next day or two from alcohol, you know, blackouts could be in the bed, you know. Um whereas crystal meth, you know, you get two hours of sleep, you wake up, you do a little more, just a little to get you going, and then it's off to the races, all all over again.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

Yeah. Um it's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah. This this idea, by the way, this anticipatory idea of as an older man, so we hear a lot, we see a lot of studies about older men exploiting younger men. And by the way, there's a huge rise in older white men exploiting young black and brown men. So, because I, you know, I got a lot of I used to get a lot of comments on uh still do sometimes social media that meth is a white man's drug. And and and it might have been before. I can't speak to that. But I know based on the research, it's it's rising rapidly with brown and black men, but younger brown and black men.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Right. And it's cheap, it lasts a long time, they get to go into daddy's big house, right? And they're wanted. Like you're saying, like, who am I? If you're facing here's the thing about chemisex, I think it is a mirror reflection of what we're seeing in our population. We can't blame anybody but ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Because as an older white man, I'm rejected by the population. As a young brown man, I'm rejected by the population. Where else do I go? If I'm not taught the skills to accept myself. Like you said, enter drugs. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

Yeah. Right. Wow, that's beautiful. Um and I uh I guess I I I'd also, you know, want to touch on this is very new. I don't know if you're seeing uh clients or this is coming into your uh practice, but um there's like this new sort of uh thing where uh drugs are mixed. So uh just in the past uh month or two, I've been hearing terms like 2C. 2C. Um yeah, and I had no idea about 2C two months ago. Um and so um just uh thinking about um how people are, like I said, cross-pollinating drugs. It's so funny. Um the way drugs happen is that like we take drugs to take us somewhere, and then we get there and we want to come down, right? Because we're too up there. So now we're doing something to bring us back down, and we're always seeking that sort of state of homeostasis that we had before everything was introduced. And homeostasis, yeah, homeostasis doesn't mean that we're not sad or angry or having feelings. It just means that, you know, we're balanced uh in a way that we're something externally like a drug uh isn't taking us up or down. And so there's this this cycle of you know trying to get back to the place where we started.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

You know?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. So thinking of it. Yeah. Go ahead. No, you go ahead. You're thinking of what?

SPEAKER_04 37:34

I so I was thinking that uh when you were talking earlier, is that um this sort of uh anticipatory um experience, right? So once you're in that experience, you you're off to the races, like you it's starting to build up. And um, and that might be the intervention point, meaning noticing when the dopamine starts to flood. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We start our heart starts to race before we pick up the phone, before we um I I'd like to, if you can, or if you're willing to um talk more about um the pragmatic side of managing um sobriety, we could say, you know, I I I don't mean sobriety in as an abstinence, um but sort of you talked about uh you know getting rid of all the contacts, um the erasing grinder and all of that off of your phone. Um uh what are some of the other ways that you find?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Yeah. So and I I I want to add a caveat to that is oftentimes men will get a new phone number, get a new phone, block grinder, block the contacts too soon. Because here's the thing, methamphetamine has been proven to have the highest uh the highest relapse rate of any drug. And then if you look at the chemsex relapse rate, it goes even higher. Again, it's a drug that's fused with sex, desire, libido, and we're men with a lot of sex, desire, and libido. But not only that, is that like for me and for that young brown man, chem sex becomes a world where we finally feel accepted. It's a culture with ritual, uh with its own language, its own app, Zoom channels. It's it's where we get to step out of this world we're living in today into this subculture where uh we love, we we we have fun, we were we're we we get to be that bad boy, we get to be free of internalized homophobia, we get to be, you know, the sexual fantasy, this this unstoppable sexual machine, even if it's all in our head, for a minute we get we get to be that. And we get to escape emotional pressure, um, we get minority stress, you know, all of that. We get to escape that for a a moment. And so when you're giving up chemsex, when you're in chemsex recovery, you're not just giving a drug up. You're you're saying goodbye to this whole identity that to you you had been looking for all of your life. That's right. And and that's what I that's what I couldn't let go of. Like, how dare you? I've been closeted all my life. I tried the gay scene, I I have and I've arrived here. Yes, I'm injecting meth, but this is the first time I felt relief. You know, and so how dare so now I have to give this up for for what? Because I I can't go back to that life. You know, and so and that is what happened to me is when I finally was in recovery for a year and a half, I'm standing at the kitchen sink looking at dirty dishes, and I'm like, I I can't do this again. This this I can't have this boring life because I had not discovered who I really was. You know, I hadn't taken that time to do that. So I the relapse rate is really high for many reasons. Number one is you're you have to grieve and and switch a whole identity.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

And number two, it's everywhere, especially if you're in New York City. Just walk down the street. You know, you can tell, you can tell, I could tell when I was there, the men who are glued to their phone and they're tweaking out and they're looking at you, like I I know what they're doing and where they're going. You know, and so it's and it's uh you you talked about accessibility. It it's basically an instacart drug. You know, you can get on get on grinder and be using with somebody in 30 minutes or or less. So it's not that easy to stop. And so I I I think, and this is research-based too. You can, if you all, if you're listening and you don't believe me, go do the research. Harm reduction in the form of tapering off managed use, that those techniques are more um impactful and successful for long-term chemsex recovery than any other way, especially abstinence-based recovery programs. Right. I think you you want to get in the 12 steps, do it. But you can't expect to walk in a room and then never use again. It's just not going to happen. Not with chemsex. That's right. And so it it it for for my guys, it once I tell them, oftentimes there's men that come to me who've been using for 20 years. And all I have to tell them is if you use, it's fine, no problem. We're not starting days over here, we're not ranking anything, we're learning, and we're moving on. Oftentimes they'll never use again. They just stop. You know, because that pressure or that stress and that strain and that, you know, all of that that's pounding on them for I can't use, I can't use, I can't use, you know, all of that is just swept away with one comment of it's fine if you use. Oftentimes, you have to use to learn how not to use.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Say more.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Yeah. You you have to go through a relapse, oftentimes, and learn from it so that you know how not to use the next time. It is part of the journey. That's right. Um, it it just is. I mean, and but the thing is that when it's treated as Failure, pass or fail. We don't get what we learn from it. And you're going to keep going back to it until you learn from it. Because there's something in there, there's something in there that's telling you you there's somehow that you need to show up differently. You know, there's there's some modifications to make in your life. So pragmatically, you know, what is it? Um, it could be anything. It could be on the weekends, I'm gonna go stay with mom. Um, you know, when I go out to an event, I'm gonna make sure that I have a buddy to go home with. And I'm not, you know, because a lot of guys, they they have a group of friends that are sober and they all go out and they'll go out into the bars and stuff, but at 2 a.m. they go home, but he doesn't. He goes off by himself and goes to use, you know, engaging chemsex. So you have a friend committed to stay home with you, or you stay home with them, or whatever. That there are ways to, you have to pretty much give up your privacy for a while, but there are pragmatic ways to make it so that you do not have a choice to use. Because you cannot rely on willpower, motivation, or self-control, because those are finite resources that run run out late at night. And late at night is when you want to use chemsex and when you have the temptations to use. So you're out of those things.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

So, what what do you do? You build enough safeguards so you don't have a choice. Because if you have a choice, you're going to use. Yeah. You know, and so it takes a lot of planning. That's why a lot of men don't want to do it, but it takes a lot of proactive planning to look at your calendar, and you can you know when your danger zones are going to be. You know when you're most likely going to use. And when you know that, you put in the safeguards so that in the fences and the boundaries so that you can't.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

Right. And when I have clients who who talk about the struggles and how they can't, and or even they'll they'll sometimes get really angry with me by saying that, you know, this is just too much. This is, you know, having to bookend every uh time I leave the house, having to, you know. Um, I always say, just uh remember what you did to get the high. So do you think this is work? Staying on the uh your cell phone for five hours, jerking your dick for, you know, six hours till it's raw. Like that's a lot of work. And I I often say that it takes work to be actively uh in addiction. It's a lot of work. You're managing, you're you know, trying to make up for the money that you lost. You know, sometimes you're in put yourself in unsafe situations. Um and so uh in comparison to like, oh, maybe I'll stay at mom's this weekend, or maybe I'll take a buddy with me to that event, or maybe I won't go to that event. Like some things I tell clients, like, there are just some things you just can't do right now. Right. Right now. Not saying that you'll never be able to go to another white party, but if you can just say right now, do I need to go to the white party? Do I need, you know, what are what are the sort of chances that's gonna pull me back into it? Um before we go, I I I also I want to touch on the um the detangling of the sex from because often with older gay men, like you said, they feel more virile. And so as humans, we want to have sex. You know what I mean? We are sexual beings by nature. It's the way we are made. So um because people associate sex with meth, they think like once meth stops, sex stops. Yeah. And so learning how to have sex without uh that sort of the without the drug, that's been uh an amazing journey. Uh a lot of my clients find that I'm too candid because sometimes I go, I skip, I say, okay, let's put the drugs aside for a minute. Let's talk about sex. Let's like what are you into? What do you like? What do you you know? Yeah. Um and when they start to sort of do that exploration of what they really like, not what's expected of them. So just because you are a man of color and you got a big uncut dick does not mean you have to be a top.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

You know? That's right.

SPEAKER_04 48:46

Right?

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

But but but a lot of people, when they come into uh relationship to others, automatically stereotype them into that. And so they'll do it because that gets them the acceptance, right? Yep. And that's right. And and so I I uh there there's a sort of phase of detangling life from the drug. So uh detangling work from the drug. Because some people it's like they know they're going into a stressful meeting, they know they have a long day, you know, they're like, oh, this will definitely get me, or even a hard conversation. I get that all the time. Like, oh, I knew I was gonna have a hard conversation or something, and this regulates me in order to have that conversation. So, so kind of uh um orienting them in yes, you're gonna have sex. Yeah. You need to have sex, right? You know, you need to work. Um and how can we do that? How how can we do that without uh needing or thinking that we need this other thing? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Can impotence be okay? Right. For you know what I mean? Like maybe you won't get hard, but does that mean that you're not enjoying yourself?

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

Does that mean, you know?

SPEAKER_00 50:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I just think it's more standards that we're getting from the population. You know. Again, you went back to daddy. You know, at the in the very beginning, I I I was like so uncomfortable with being called daddy because I had only been called daddy by my children. You know, and I just thought I thought of my kids every time somebody said daddy, but now it's just like I'm on the hen, I'm on Hinge, the dating app, and that's the first thing that they're that's that's the hello is hi daddy. You know, no matter how old they are. Um, it's like I have to be daddy, like you're saying. I have to be daddy if I want to have sex, pretty much. Right. Whether whether I'm top, whether I'm a bottom, you know, uh uh younger guys, they don't a lot of them don't care. They'll top a dad, they love to top a daddy, or they like to be topped by a daddy, you know, but I'm daddy either way. Right. And um, but it's just it just feels so so oftentimes it just feels so forced and expected. Here it's so funny to me that we have a population of men who are trying to go against and break sociocultural norms, but then they want to comply to gay sociocultural norms. I have to dress like this, I have to read you, I have to act like this, I have to be, you know, I have to be a twink, I have to be a daddy. Like we're doing the same thing. And it's driving us into creating our own culture where we don't have that. Yes, there's daddy in the chemsex world, but for the most part, it's everybody's in it. You know, everybody's doing their own thing, having, you know, and I just it it's just it it it can be frustrating for me as dating as an older, you know, I'm I'm I'll be 50 in a couple of months, um, trying to date. And it's like, okay, let me guess. I bet you want me to choke you, spit on you, slap you around. I uh I let me just let me just tell you already what you're gonna ask for, because every other man, every other man is asking me to do that, because I want they need me to be Dom Top Daddy.

SPEAKER_04 52:32

Right. Right. And it it it really is. You just when you think of daddy, you think of caretaker, protector, you know. Um, and so a lot of uh these sort of labels, like you said, I I've been called poppy before I was a poppy, like I was 17. So hey poppy, poppy, poppy. And and I I learned, like you said, I learned um how to uh come into that role. I learned that, okay, if I am a poppy, then they will like me, then they will accept me, then um, and underneath all of it is connection.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:16

Underneath it all, yeah. All humans want connection. We don't do well alone. Our species is designed to be in connection to each other. It's how we protect ourselves, it's how we survive. No one can, you know, so um meth as a vehicle to connection um is, I have found, sort of the under underpinning of it all. Yeah. Um and uh and just like I say we have to detangle sex from meth is we have to find connection outside of meth. Yeah. You know, so uh so I often find that people who have the willingness to come into relationship with others h have the higher higher uh percentage of um being successful uh uh away from that, you know, I don't want to again, I don't want to say abstinence, but in recovering. Yeah. Um like finding community finding community so important, even if it's a community of ex-meth users, you know, or community of aging gay men, some kind of uh community that's gonna give you a sense of belongingness, a sense of, you know, when we think of Maslow's uh triangle, that sort of sense of belonging is is right in the middle there, root, you know. Yep after you hit safety, you know, belonging is right there.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

So yeah, I agree, I agree. We had a um God, I forgot his name. But anyway, a gentleman from the UK who has been running chemsex groups, and he said, like, uh they they found over time that most of the guys just wanted to date. They just wanted a connection, right? That's what it is. But you said something very important that I want the listeners to hear willingness. So to me, if you want to talk about sexual, you know, getting back on the horse sexually, you want to talk about reintegrating and re and untangling and diffusing and connecting and and being happy in recovery, it all starts with the willingness to believe that it's possible. Because if you come in and you say, I'm never gonna have Tina sex again, I'm always gonna have vanilla sex again, I'm never gonna be able to do this, then yes, that's what you'll get. That is what you'll get what you're looking for. Open your mind up to the possibility and understand that meth was all about instant gratification, everything, instant gratification. So if you want to be somebody who doesn't use meth, then you're gonna have to get used to delayed gratification in every sense of the word. And that means taking time to build a connection, taking time to get to know your body again, taking time to connect your head and your dick again. Like it takes time. And I understand, I understand. I had a friend who took a year of abstinence on his journey after his he broke up with his partner, and he's he's reaping the benefits of it now. And I told him, I was like, yeah, but you're in your 30s. I said, if I took a year of abstinence off, it's like 10 years. You know, because in my mind I'm still I I'm still running on that borrowed time. There's still some of that in me of I have time to make up. Like I'm almost 50. I can't take a year of abstinence. That's you know, that's a big chunk of what's left. But that's not true. But it's not true. Exactly. But it is that voice running in the back of my mind saying.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Yeah. And undoing that voice, I always tell uh my clients, uh, in every sense of the word, I say, you're not going to think your way out of this.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:19

Because if it took the intelligence and all that, all m all of my clients, uh 100% of them are bright and intelligent people. And so uh thinking that this that they're gonna be able to think their way, like if I just you know read the right book, you know, if I do boom, boom, boom, then uh you have to act your way out of this situation. So yes, it doesn't feel good, but act like it does. You know, like so normally, you know, uh it having sex, you know, on meth probably would be instantly more gratifying, but uh it doesn't mean you don't have sex. You know, you don't do the meth and have the sex. Just keep acting your way into this. This is not um this is not gonna be you can't you're not gonna like pray the gay away, just like you're not gonna pray the meth away.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

That's right. Yeah. You know that's right.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Exactly right. Yeah. Well, well, Daryl, we we got a little off topic today, but what do you think we missed in terms in this discussion? What do you what do you wish we would have mentioned or talked about that we might not have touched on?

SPEAKER_04 58:38

Um I d I don't know. I I'm pretty satisfied in the sense of of you know, we only have but so much time and we are uh touching on very overarching uh sub uh subjects and experiences. So I'm very I'm very satisfied. Um I think you know, if we ever come back together, I I would love to focus in on uh the men of color aspect and the experiences of being uh a gay man of color and navigating uh crystal meth. Uh because like you said, uh statistics are showing, you know, that more and more men of color are starting to be introduced to this drug uh unawares of you know the sort of pitfalls that can lie before them. Um so yeah, I think that's the only that's the only topic that I would expand on.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Well, let's do that for sure. Because that's a subject we haven't touched on. It's a subject that I don't know. I I don't know, you know, I don't have a lived experience with, but you know, I I I see the studies. Um I have had several men of color lined up to come on the podcast and they've canceled on the la at the last minute.

SPEAKER_03 59:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Um and so I don't you know that's an interesting phenomenon, I think, too, is that there's a little there's some fear there, I think, about coming and making it public. Um, and I'm sure there's I'm sure there's a lot of cultural stuff involved in there that I don't know about.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:17

Right, right. And I I'd love to to be sort of a stepping stone or vehicle into that exploration with you because there it is um it does have some unique aspects uh to it. You and I talked about this, you know, in our pre-interview a couple weeks ago about uh you know black men and doctors and medical, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it'll be interesting. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And so now that's a teaser for the for the listeners for the tune in when you see Daryl on here again. Exactly. All right. All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Daryl, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

I did very much, and thank you for the work that you do and for being out there and also the vulnerability that you bring to the work is very, very amazing and and quite unique, especially especially because you know, some we're taught in school, you know, uh only the use of self only at you know certain times. But you yeah, you do the use of self from the beginning to the end. And I think that's what makes it special. I think that's what makes it special.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

So thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. All right, all right, guys. If you want to join in the conversation, you could comment on Spotify or YouTube. I appreciate that. If you want to DM Daryl directly, we'll put his contact information in the show notes, and you can DM me anytime. I'm on social media, everywhere, at all times. Probably three times a day I'm posting stuff. So can't get enough. All right. Thanks, Daryl, and everybody will see all next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

Thank you, thank you. Ciao