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The AfterMeth: Gay Men Recovering from Crystal Methamphetamine and Chemsex Addiction
Vision:
To eradicate crystal meth addiction and chemsex misuse, especially among the gay male population.
Mission:
Using the power of social media, The AfterMeth will increase awareness around the characteristics and effects of crystal meth and chemsex on the community of men who have sex with men, provide stories of hope to inspire struggling users and produce a repository of tools to be used by the loved ones of men who want to break free from the addictive patterns of chemsex.
Join Dallas Bragg every other week. You can find The AfterMeth Podcast anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. Find answers to:
How can I stop relapsing?
How can I heal my addiction?
How does crystal meth addiction affect gay men?
How can I get sober?
The AfterMeth: Gay Men Recovering from Crystal Methamphetamine and Chemsex Addiction
EP 3:49 The Real Work of Chemsex Recovery with Danni
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/realwork
Host Dallas Bragg sits down with Danni Pomplun, a men's coach and men's work facilitator based in San Francisco, whose message — "I quit the drugs, but the addiction stayed" — cuts to the heart of what happens after the substance is gone. Danni traces his own path from leaving home at seventeen and managing gay bars in Southern California at twenty-one, through losing his first partner at twenty-five, to a second bottom years later when meth entered the picture hard and fast. What finally moved him wasn't talk therapy alone, which he says kept him stuck in his head, but somatic and embodiment work, trauma therapy, and men's circles where he was met with what he calls "sharp love" — brothers who cared less about his stories and more about his integrity. He and Dallas name a pattern the gay community rarely talks about: enormous freedom of expression with very little containment, and the "leaky energy" that follows when there are no boundaries around it.
The conversation turns to why unspoken emotion is so often the real trigger. Dallas describes a client whose unspoken workplace conflict built until chemsex became the exit; Danni frames every relapse as "the moment we choose to leave ourselves." They explore how men are conditioned out of two feelings in particular — grief and celebration — and how learning to sit in stillness, converse with the body, and name what's actually there (anger under sadness, anxiety mistaken for sexual charge) is the work that white-knuckling can never replace. Danni also speaks to touch and the fear of being held, especially for men carrying chemsex trauma, and closes with a call for community care over self-care alone: "It's amazing that we get to laugh and dance together. It's a shame if I don't get to see you cry." He shares his free and donation-based online men's circles and a meditation album, From Pain to Peace, releasing on Spotify at the end of September.
Contact Danni:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannipomplun/?hl=en"
Website: https://www.dannipomplun.com/
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Dallas Bragg
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While it may be hard and scary, that is the work. And I think what what men out there need to hear is you don't have to do it alone. I know it may seem like you want to do it alone or like you have nobody else, but there are a lot of people out there that may want to make sure you don't do it alone as well.
SPEAKER_00Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. So glad you're here. Thank you for tuning in. Appreciate you. I just want to say, I always say like, subscribe, review the podcast, but also I really like to see somebody share it on their story somewhere, share it on their their social media. I put a thousand uh reels out there from the podcast. Somebody share it somewhere. Um, I would really love that. Uh the thing is, you know, I understand a lot of you want to stay uh anonymous that you are, you know, talking about myth. A lot of my clients don't even follow me. They don't want people to know that they are using because it's a it's a it's a secretive thing. Um but if you can, I really appreciate that. If you could do that. So today I'm gonna introduce you to a new friend of mine, Danny Pompoon. Um hopefully I said that correctly, without a country, a country accent just kind of makes everything sound wrong when I say it. Um but Danny's gonna introduce himself, but I'm really excited. I saw um a reel pop up, and Danny was talking about I quit drugs, the addiction stayed, and then I started digging deeper into his work, and I'm really excited to share with you Danny today. Danny, can you tell us about yourself?
SPEAKER_01I sure can, and I'm gonna I'm gonna try to do it in a uh country accent like I love that. Just before we went live on recording, we were talking about my last name, and I was telling Dallas how someone, you know, they made me French, so we're like bomb bloon. I'm like, that sounds rich and expensive. Yeah, let's go that way.
SPEAKER_03I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me on the show, Dallas. And I think even, you know, as the listeners start to tune in, it is so powerful the work that you're doing and the voice that you are giving for a lot of the voiceless out there, and a lot of men that are using, you know, myself in the past are looking for community. So just I want to just brag on you and give you a lot of love for doing the work that you're doing and putting the voice that you are out there in the world is a lot of work. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you very much. And uh, I'm still Danny. So still still me. Uh yeah. My name is Yeah, my name is Danny Pompoon. Um, I guess, you know, it's quite funny. People ask me, like, well, what do you do? And I'm like, I don't really mind. Do a little bit of everything. No, I I'm a coach, and specifically I'm a men's coach and a men's uh men's work facilitator. Uh my background is in yoga and mindfulness, and before that, I managed gay bars and nightclubs for about 10 years. So that was a good time. Wow. I didn't know that part. Yeah. About four years ago, my life really changed. Um, I got coached and I was able to sit in some really beautiful men's circles and have some really sharp love that I had never gotten. You know, I got all the validation I needed to in the gay community. I got everything else, the party, everything else that went with it. Um, but I never really got some some some loving, sharping or sharpening words uh to me. And um, I was so moved by it. And I kind of had this moment in life where I was like, I think I'm here to help men heal. And uh yeah, that's that's that's a quick intro.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like it. Well tell can you tell me tell us more about what is what is a sharpening word?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I I think one thing that comes to mind when you ask that is integrity. And, you know, it for for what it's for what it is and what and and sometimes for what it's not, what I love so much about being gay is that there's a lot of liberation. There's freedom in my sexuality, there's freedom in my expression, there's freedom in a lot of stuff. And I think with that naturally comes a lack of containment. There's almost so much freedom that we don't put any boundaries on anything. Yep. And some of the work that I do, uh, you know, the two ways I look at it is like there's structure and flow, and it's like the masculine and the feminine. It's not about your your sexual identity, it has nothing to do with that. It's it's more like what is holding the thing and then what is the expression of the thing. And and as gay men, I find that we are very, very, very much in full expression of life. And it's a beautiful thing. Don't get me wrong, it is a it is a gift to be able to be an expression. And there's gotta be time for containment and leaky energy in the sexual community, or rather in the in the gay community, uh, is is a thing, you know. You see people, it's it's kind of the things that we no one parties like the gayest party. Right. It is a it is a thing. Yeah. And I think, you know, sharpening, you know, I I don't think I've ever had anyone in the community really call me on my integrity. And, you know, I sat in rooms with straight men unintentionally. I didn't realize I was going to be the only queer man in this container. And um, and these guys, it was great. These guys didn't care about the parties I went to. They didn't care, you know, what uh what pride event I was going to, they didn't care about my Puerto Vallarta trip or, you know, the the three-way or whatever it was. They really just cared about me stepping into my greatness and stepping into my word. And I never really had people of that caliber and that were doing such big things in life that were, you know, supporting me. And and and you know, I'll never forget there was one time I went up to the mic and I was telling my teacher about my ex, and he's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, are you gonna talk about your ex again? I said, Well, yeah. And he goes, sit down. We don't want to hear it. We talked about this last time. You said you were gonna do something you didn't, like, we don't want to hear it. Wow. And at first I was like, fuck off. I paid money to be here, you know. Yeah, right. But the reality was he was giving me a gift. He wasn't letting me repeat the pattern in real time. He was pausing me and asking me to consider before I said anything else. And um, and that's the kind of sharp love that I think that we um that we we lack in many ways. Uh and I can't speak for everyone else's experience, of course. But like I said, you know, I was um, you know, I I I was in bars and nightlife most of my life, you know, and and even while I was teaching yoga and doing mindfulness, I was still working at a bar to to make a living because it's tough on both ends. And you know, everything's more more more in in the land of of being gay and being in a gay bar and and and everything that goes with that.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Lack of containment is such an important concept for for us. Because I I I really believe like y when I have I when I've spoken out about chem sex a lot, there are some in the gay community who will say, you know, you're a buzzkill. You know, you're taking away our sexual freedoms and our sexual liberation. And like you're saying, yes, you can have all that, but there's leaky energy, like you like you said, like we have to contain it though. We have to have boundaries around it, or it's out of control, which is what we have. This is what we're seeing. Even in even if it's not chemsex, even if it's just on grinder or at pride, it's like there is a lack of containment of of it. There's gotta be a balance between that, between going crazy with it, right, and and and knowing where your boundaries are and still feeling the Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think anyone that says you're a buzzkill is you know, there's something alive for them. There's something you they're calling you a buzzkill, and you're getting a reaction out of them because the work that you're doing is confronting to them. So you're doing the right thing. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And and I also on this on the other side of it is I I understand their pain. You know, I understand that they're they're doing something that they're probably at a crossroads with or they don't know how to get out of. And so instead of going inward and reflecting, they're pointing the finger at you. You know, they're pointing the finger at someone who is is calling out specifically in in in chemsex and and the work that the podcast is built around is like that meth is is a drug that is just so prevalent. And uh again, only speaking from my experience, I don't think I've ever seen anyone come out of it on the other side better in life. You know, I've only seen I've seen it destroy lives overnight. I've seen it tear people down. I mean, it almost it almost tore my life apart. And I and I've had a few rock bottoms in my life, but I was lucky to have some high rock bottoms, you know?
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Can you go can you tell us about your experience then with Myth?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sobriety? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So my my my first journey in sobriety started um with uh drinking and cocaine. Those are my two my two things. I was a bartender. Um I started, you know, bartending very young. I was 21 managing gay bars uh in Southern California, and it was the best of times and the worst of times, you know. Yeah. Someone left me in charge, and that was a bad idea. But I had access to everything, you know, I had access to everything at ever and every given point. And that led to, you know, the exploration of, you know, doing uh Molly and well, back then we had ecstasy. So, you know, we didn't really have Molly back then. It was like press pills, and I ate mushrooms and smoked a lot of weed and you know, all that stuff. And um when I was about 25, I had a partner, uh, it was my first love, and um, he had passed away from AIDS. And um I grew up a little different. I I left home when I was 17. I became a sex worker and a drug dealer and had to survive. And so some of the things that, and my mom was, you know, uh in and out of jail most of my life. My dad did his best, but wasn't there, you know, and very machismo Mexican man from uh Mexico who did there's no emotional intelligence behind that, you know. And so as I was growing up, I didn't have emotional regulation. I didn't have anyone, you know, telling me how to feel my big feelings and then getting me to the other side. I didn't have buzzwords like nervous system reset or regulation. I didn't have access to mental health care. None of it existed. I had the bar. And that's what my world revolves around. And you kind of think when you hear this, like, oh, like how did you not know about more? Well, you don't know what you don't know. And a lot of a lot of times people forget if we don't have access to mental health care, to services, to whatever it is, or we just don't know that it exists, we probably don't go find it. And there's shame behind that as well. So, you know, at 25, I lost my partner, and um it was the first big loss that I had. And and uh I didn't take it lightly. And uh, you know, I have my own story with HIV. I've been HIV positive for many, many years, and I was positive before he became positive, and I came out the other side okay, and I was guaranteed that he was gonna come on the other side okay, and and he didn't. He passed. You know, it it sarcoma got him just like we used to lose our brothers from back in the day. Yeah. And the first thing I did is after I left the hospital is I went and got uh a bunch of drugs and went to the local bar. And two days later, I came to and someone was, you know, slamming me, and I had no idea where I was, I had no idea how I got there. Wow. And, you know, I actually it it brought me to somewhat of a sober moment where I was like, what the hell is going on? And and then I tried to fight the person for a second, and then they calm me down, and you know, and then the rest of the story is the rest of the story there. And that was really my first time with it, and I got really scared. I got really, really, really scared. Enough where I was like, okay, I don't need to do that again. And um, I started some therapy, and therapy really started helping. And I I really took uh my yoga practice at the time very seriously. What I what I loved about yoga was you know, I'd come in hungover, I would be walking to the yoga studio, smoking a parliament light, you know, and and oh yeah, oh yeah. And they were my favorite, man. They were my favorite. And um the the thing that I loved about it is no one cared. You know, they they didn't care that the they didn't care that I was hung over. They didn't care that I smelled like Jameson or smelled like a cigarette. They cared that I was there, and that's what really kept me coming back to yoga or to spirituality. Sometimes it's, you know, God, capital G-O-D, sometimes it's you know, a group of drunks, whatever it may be. And um I think once I found this place of belonging, my sobriety not started, but my drinking and partying started to slow down because I was introduced to something that was completely different. Yeah. I knew there was another way to live, and I was being, you know, there were reflections around me of of elevated people, is what I like to say. People living and soul purpose, you know, they weren't there was no need to escape because they were living their authentic lives. Yeah. And um yeah, that went really well in, you know, as it does, where you're like, okay, I'm gonna slow things down. I was still doing cocaine, just not as much. I was still drinking, just not as much, and still eat mushrooms and things like that. And and then a few years passed and I was really lonely. You know, I I had I'd stayed single, I would roll through guys all the time. And um, there was a moment where I remember being in in San Diego and I went to one of my mentors and I said, you know, it's starting to feel scary again. And she was like, You've talked about moving to San Francisco for a really long time. I think it's time you pack your bags and go and go do this yoga thing and get out of the bars. And I said, Okay. Like I had nothing really left. So I packed up all my stuff. I came to San Francisco, and um, I was on a mission to, you know, do yoga teaching. And um, I got a job at a bar up here, and you know, I'd slowed everything down. I took about a year of no drugs. I drank and I would smoke cigarettes, and I would, you know, I would I would eat mushrooms and called that California Sober. Right. That was my version of California Sober. Right. California sober extra light. Extra light. Yeah, plus California Plus.
SPEAKER_00The premium, yeah, yeah. Right. The premium excuse that you give yourself. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you know, I it felt good. You know, things were slowing down and things were life was getting okay again. And I moved to San Francisco, I was in a new place, and this is you know, before I learned the term geography, and you know, I got here, and the first thing I did was find the first drug dealer I could, and you know, that was that was it. I had my cocaine picked up immediately again. My eating all sorts of drugs started, and then the G was introduced to my life. Ah. Yeah. So I I came into the there's there's a there's a good thing and a bad thing about the way that I grew up. I was very sheltered in many ways. And when I started working at the bars, I was 21. And I was 21, and I was the bar manager, so I drank the best booze and I did the best cocaine, and I didn't do G and I didn't do T because that was for lower than me people. You know, it was a very classy broad, if you will. I had access to what I thought was important, and so you know, when you're 21, you don't, you know, you don't know your head from your ass. I thought it was I thought it was cool. And so anyway, I came up here and and and G was introduced to me, and and everything just kind of started to go downhill. And really quickly, within a matter of nine months, I went out on this date, and we go to this bar and I end up pulling out my AA app and the very next day, me and this man go to a go to a meeting because the date didn't happen because he was like, I think you need some help. I was drunk, I was not that drunk, I didn't think so anyway. In my eyes, I was keeping it together.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I walked into my first AA room, and um that was that was really the beginning of the the better part of my sobriety started there. Okay. I was in AA, I was in the rooms for around four years. Um and it was it was, you know, it was like that big breath that you need from life. And I like to remind people, and this is you know, this is how I like to say it is I didn't really come online until I was 30. I never felt my own emotions, I had never had sober sex, I had never had genuine connection that wasn't outside of a bar and over a drink or over drugs. You know, m my life didn't really, it wasn't conducive to that, you know. I for a long time had become really okay with the thought that, okay, you're gonna be a bartender in a gay bar for the rest of your life, and that's what you're gonna do. And you're gonna live in the castro and you're gonna hang out in the castro, and this is what you do, and everyone knows you, and you go out and you drink five nights a week, and we know those people. And I I thought that was it for me. And once I got sober, it was like not only was I clear, but my I'm a pretty spiritual person, you know, and I think my soul really came online. And, you know, I don't like to say God, but I like to say the great her, the great mother. You know, she's gotta be a woman. This shit's crazy. You know? Yeah. The goddess. The goddess. Yeah, you know, I like to say that it was you know, it was one of those first times in my life where I actually felt connection to her and to to it to to to wonder and awe. Like something made this really beautiful masterpiece we call life. I mean, nature is intelligent and absolutely mesmerizing. You know, trees can tell us how long they've lived. Yeah. Water can cut through massive amounts of stone and and make new mountains. It's it's pretty beautiful. Something is alive out there and it's bigger than me. And it was the first time I had really experienced it. And life was good. You know, life was was really, really, really solid for a good four years. And then small permissions came in.
SPEAKER_00Ah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Small permissions. Yeah, small permissions came in, and it was like, you know, I'll start the mushrooms and okay, you know, I can eat the the Molly at Pride. And, you know, it it all just it slipped again. And it took a while. This was, you know, it was my second, you know, rock bottom was, you know, I I I had lost myself completely. I lost myself in a relationship. I lost myself in in life. I was really starting to abandon myself. And, you know, the fact is, like I said in the video, I didn't really get to the root of the problem. And the root of the problem is that I didn't love and respect myself. And it had to do with a lot of my growing up, it had to do with the way I navigated the world, some of the trauma that I'd never really unpacked. And um Yeah, you know, I I think the second go-around, the second go-around was was pretty scary for me because I had never, you know, I I pushed meth off. I could count on one hand, on one finger, how many times I'd done it. Okay. And the second time in a matter of six weeks, I was shooting up three, four nights a week. And I I didn't go to smoking it. I went straight for the red button. I was in pain. Yeah. And this was it was a big cry for help. And I just wanted to be off the planet, and I didn't have the balls to commit suicide, you know? Yeah. So I was just like, how quick do I get out of here? And thankfully, I had good people in my life who were like, something's wrong. You know, we got to get you some support and some help. And and they did. I have a couple of friends who worked in sober spaces um in homes and centers and things like that. And they really just came in and and, you know, I was introduced to a lot of really amazing resources. Uh, you know, I had the yoga practice and the mindfulness practice, but to have somatic and embodiment practices and uh somatic therapy and trauma therapy was the biggest thing that was really incredible for me. It really changed my life. Dude, trauma therapy and and really solid community was what pulled me out. So yeah, that's you know, I I don't know, I don't know that my sobriety story ever ends. And there's not just like one moment, you know. I mean, I think you know this, Dallas. You've been doing On this for a while and God knows how many men you've worked with, but I like to think just today is all I gotta worry about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's uh just for today is the twelve step. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That is that is right. Right. You're right. Right. I I did hear you say about therapy. You mentioned trauma therapy. You also mentioned embodiment and somatic somatic embodiment. Use there was a a reel that you talked about. The therapy helped you so much, but to really apply it, integrate it, you had to embody what you were learning. Yeah. Yeah. Can you can you tell us what that can you explain that a little bit? Sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, and again, this is just my take on it, and everyone, everyone has their own, and I'm okay with it. Sure. Sure. I think a lot of talk therapy is is uh th talk therapy in general is let me back that up. If someone who doesn't talk to someone starts talking to the same light pole every day, I think it's better than not talking to anyone at all. I genuinely think if someone has just a a place to get things out, uh, we would be in a very different place. Talk therapy was amazing for me. I got to sit with someone who was an outside party who I didn't really care if they judge me. Uh, you know, they had some skill sets on how to respond to me and how to ask me the right questions and so on and so forth. And it was great. And it only got me to a certain point. And that certain point was that it was just all mental and cerebral front cortex thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking. And for an addict, thinking is not the best thing. You know, like I want to get out of the overthinking, especially as an addict. And I I started to, yeah, you know, as I joined as I joined the men's group, I was doing emotional embodiment practice. So I thought I was going into a leadership program. I really did. I was, I had had a small business and I was like, I want to be a better boss and figure out how to work with my team. And it was emotional leadership embodiment. And I totally just misgauged all of it. And it was the best thing I ever did. And so the emotional embodiment part, what I've learned and the work that I do now, you know, the work that I get to do with men all the time is we can think about things sure. And, you know, emotion is energy in motion. That stuff needs to move through your body and it needs to be expressed through your body. So let me give you an example. Um, one of the one of the things that I found as very powerful and one of the tools that really created some serious liberation inside of my body and inside of my being. I mean, I ever since that day and this practice, I've felt like millions of pounds lighter. But uh, the practice was set up in a way that we were there to feel something that we hadn't fully in the past. And for me, it was my partner passing away. I never really grieved it. I talked a lot about it, I cried, but it was still in my body. And I got to, you know, really step into the full emotion viscerally through every single cell of my body. So you jump into meditation, you jump into breath work to help you get there, and you pull yourself back to the scene and you let the emotion out. And when this happened, I mean it was facilitated so beautifully by my teacher. When it happened, I was angry. I thought I was sad. I was angry that he died. I was pissed. It was like my my my my ride or die was wasn't there anymore. And this whole time I thought I was sad. No, I was I had a lot of anger. And, you know, I got two men holding me back and someone, you know, who's who's in front of me who is the face of him. I'm supposed to imagine him there. And I was just screaming like, you fucking left me. And how and then after the anger, then came the tears. And the tears, you know, were were for the first time, I understood anguish and I understood real grief. And, you know, I mean, that practice to me is still, you know, that's why I continue to why I'm in the work. That's why I do the same for for other men, is because it really shifted something inside of me. There's two things as men that we don't feel. We have a hard time finding celebration and we have a hard time finding grief. And it is the way that we are conditioned, even as gay men, you know, sometimes we forget that we're still, you know, we're still in the general society, which is mainly straight. And, you know, uh men in many ways are not supposed to feel. They're not taught how to feel, you know. Right. And and we develop a lot later in communication. You know, women, you always see hear people making fun of little girls just chit-chatting all the time. And it's because literally the part of their brain that starts to develop when they're younger to communicate happens way earlier than us. You know, we happen later on in the game, and yeah, at that point we've been conditioned not to feel and not to be and not to do that or be weak or whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Yeah, you know, this is this is so related to recovery that I and I think we miss it. And it's something that I I was talking, I recorded a podcast today about uh a client who what I'm finding out is a trigger to use chemsex is unspoken conversations. Yeah. So, you know, I had a client, it was this there were people at work who were causing him great stress. They didn't know. So every day he would face these people and not speak his truth, it built up and it built up and it built up, and he didn't know how to what to do with it, so it went into a chemsex use. You know, the the myth would give him a break from it, it would give him a temporary numbness. Now, that that buildup would cause him to get on sniffies, and then he would get horny and have euphoric recalls. So, but what we tend to focus on with chemsex is that only the sniffies part, yeah. And only and only the sex part. But he wouldn't have been on there if he wasn't trying to avoid, and as you talk about a lot here, escape, but exit. Like you talked about, I want to exit. He he does it, these we don't know how to express these emotions, and that is the real core. Like if you don't get to that, you're just gonna white knuckle it. Correct. You might right? Do you agree with that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I mean uh when was the last time someone sat us down and I laugh about that. Do you know when I used geometry that I learned in high school? Never. Never. You know what had been really helpful in high school is someone to show me the emotion wheel and someone to say, hey, you know, this is what rage is. And these are the places that we go. Brene Brown, who's single-handedly changed my life through her literature, has one of the most beautiful um books that is uh illustrated called Atlas of the Heart. And it's beautiful because uh, by the way, if anyone purchases, I should get 10% from this. What's beautiful about it is it takes you on a journey, the different places that we visit. So where we go when we're sad, where we go when we're happy, where we go where we're confused, where we go when we're kind of in that liminal space. And it gives us, you know, language to our experience. One of the hardest reasons that we can express ourselves is because language is the barrier. So if you know that something's fiery inside of you, but you don't know that it's anxiety, you don't know that it's anxiety. You think it's sexual charge or you know, whatever it may be. Um it's I just wish that, you know, in and maybe it's too much of a market to have emotional intelligence learned and and taught to us at a very young age, but man, would the world be different if we had that skill set, if someone really gave us that toolkit. And there are great parents out there that, you know, do do it, but I think the masses, I don't think it really exists, you know, especially, you know, in the states, there's a lot of glorification through, oh, we don't talk about that, you know. Oh, someone's got a problem in the family. Okay, we don't talk in the South, which is I mean, you know that. Yeah, we don't talk about oh, we don't talk about that. Uh-huh. We'll go, we'll go send them away. No one will see and no, and it's it's it's fine. And that is the worst thing that we can. You know, it it goes with everything. It's not just the meth. It's the eating, it's the phone, it's the gym, it's it's it's the whatever we're using. We we the the opposite of of I think addiction is connection and not just connection to other, but uh like connection to ourselves, you know, before all of before all of the stories, before there are so many things that we have taken on that we've not agreed to. We never got consent to take on people's judgments. We never got consent to have people, you know, put these, you gotta be strong, you gotta be more masculine, you're too f whatever it may be. We never got gave consent for that. And those are layers that that it's like putting on the different masks, you know, and your mask is the one at the very least. And it takes time to excavate, you know, it takes time to to to pull that off to really be yourself.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I there's a little phrase that I say that recovery is not learning something new, it's unlearning everything you thought you knew. That's right. Uh about yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's returning home to your true self.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So you you talked about this, your your partner passing was you weren't pro it wasn't processed, it was still in your body. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about if I'm listening and I'm I'm like, how do I know if something's still in my body?
SPEAKER_01That's a really good question. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, all right. Remember you guys, I am in San Francisco, so I am the hippiest of the hippie. And I like to say if I can add a third woo to the woo-woo, I would. Yeah, yeah. Nice. But I think that there is a conversation that needs to be had with our bodies. Period. You know, I I think we live in three forms. We live in our on our head, we live in our heart, and we live in our gut. You know? And the head is the analytical, the thinking, the heart is the emotional, and the gut is the being, the physical being. Yeah. And I often sit here and, you know, I'll put my hands on my heart every day on my meditation, and then, you know, I ask for a message or whatever it may be from my from my heart. I don't need to ask my head, it's giving me messages all day long. I wish it would turn off. Right. And then I go to my body too, you know, and say, like, what what is in there? And I I believe if you get quiet enough, sometimes that's through, you know, breath work where we're burning out some energy. You know, some of the stuff that I teach is in all of my practices is breath work and meditation, mindfulness, awareness. Because I've seen when I do it, people can start to really listen. And I think that we're a lot smarter. You have to remember that these, you know, these meat suits are way older than we are. You know, we're just inhabiting them for the for the first time. They are intelligent and they send us signals all day long if we're willing to listen.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, if we have to know how to listen, which is another skill we don't get taught. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We we're not taught to be in our bodies. We're taught to shame them or change them immediately. We're not taught to love and accept and just be in our bodies as they are, are willing, these capable, these able bodies, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there I think I've told this story on the podcast, but you know, there there was so much of a rejection wound that I've had here and there. And when I started to become an observer of when I felt rejected, I I noticed I immediately would reach for something. Right. Usually the phone. Right? Let me get on grinder and make remind myself I am accepted. Yeah. Or whatever. Whatever I would do to escape that feeling. But when I learn to just sit in it and talk to it, like I like you said, have a conversation with my body to say what is really happening here. Are were you really rejected? What is it that you really want? You know, and just kind of, I don't and just be with it. Just still, stillness, which I don't think like there's two things we don't have. I think what well, one thing is like you said, more. Like the words here is like more and then distracted.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Is like the two words that are just running through our culture right now. We're just so distracted that we don't know what's happening here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think, you know, what comes up when you say that is, you know, the moment where we choose to exit. And that's what I that's one of the the moment that we're like, okay, reality's a little too much right now. Here's I'm gonna go that way for a little bit. And it could it could be anything. It's the phone, like you said, it's the phone, it's the sex, it's whatever it is, is the moment that we leave ourselves. And there there is, I mean, I see it time and time again in the people I I work with. It's the beautiful thing of being a coach is, you know, to see them sit through the fire, you know, sit sit as it's coming, head on, and experience the range of their emotion, which can be anger and sadness and whatever else may be. But there's such a beautiful release at the end and a deeper understanding of who they are at the end. Yeah. I think it is scary to sit in stillness because there's a lot of truth. And so when we're faced with the opportunity, I think it's an opportunity, to sit with stillness, we might be afraid of what actually comes up. We might be afraid that we might listen to the anger, but that underneath the anger there was sadness because of our father wound or our mother wound or whatever, our abandonment wound, whatever it may be. And and that's valid. And I would say to everybody, you know, listening to the podcast, you know, right now, and just in general, you have yet, you and I, Dallas, both of us, and everyone else, we have yet to be proven that we're not okay.
SPEAKER_03Every day we've woken up. Every day we've woken up. And I think that while it may be hard and scary, that is the work.
SPEAKER_01And I think what what men out there need to hear is you don't have to do it alone. I know it may seem like you want to do it alone or like you have nobody else, but there are a lot of people out there that may want to make sure you don't do it alone as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It does feel like we're alone oftentimes. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of men who come out of a chemsex experience with trauma around being around any gay man. Nerv nervousness, fear, you know, and always this skepticism and paranoia around are they going to use me? You know. And I think the work that you're talking about is like as you said in your one of your reels, that the hard work comes after you stop the substance. Yeah. Which yeah. I've always said that. It's look, quitting meth is the easy part. Now you have to get to work. Now you have to roll your sleeves up. Right. But it's that it letting go of this emotion, but also coming into connection with other gay men and and being vulnerable and putting your guard down and passing, like you said, passing some of this emotion through, which is what you do with your work. Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I think we've both been there, Dallas, where we're like, are they gonna like me? Yeah, right. You know? And like what happens if they don't like me? I I think that's the part where we get stuck is you know, we feel the rejection and we're the two things that we want is a sense of belonging and a sense of being loved, right? That's that is our what's our our two desires, I believe. And yeah, I I just really wonder, I am curious how how much we really buy into the stories, you know? What what happens if that person doesn't like me? Right. Is my life gonna fall apart? Am I a terrible person because they don't my family no longer loves me because that sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, right? If this person doesn't like me, no one's ever gonna love me, and my family's gonna hate me, and I'm like, it sounds ridiculous as I say it. And we don't say it out loud because then we won't, you know, we won't believe what's happening inside. And and I think sometimes we just have to like normalize what the conversation is happening upstairs and realize that in many ways we've been programmed to believe that as true.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Because when you got people that are lonely, when you got people that are isolated, they spend money.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yes, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is I think, yeah. I mean, a lot of the social media is designed for that. Absolutely. You get Dallas.
SPEAKER_01I get I will get like puppies being given to kids and then they're crying and I'm crying, and then it's an ad served right afterwards, you know? Like they've got me a few times, you know, where I'm like, that was great. Yeah. I need that thing. Right.
SPEAKER_00I need that, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00When you talk about men are aren't taught to feel two things, celebration and grief.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So grief, grief I get. Can you talk a little bit uh and elaborate on the celebration part?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. We we uh in in the in the work, I have witnessed that men have a really hard time finding joy and celebrating themselves. Okay. You know, there's yeah, yeah. How many times do you hear the buzzword narcissist? Everyone's a narcissist. If people actually understood the people understood the realness of the word, they wouldn't probably drop it as much, but it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like we're afraid to say, hey, Dallas, I've been sober for 10 years. You know? Yeah. Because it because if if you come back at me and and say, that's awesome, Danny da-da-da-da-da, it's uh I'm bragging. No, that's that's that's someone caring about someone else being like, hell yeah, you know, like I'm right there with you. Um and we kind of just breeze over it, you know. I I find that people that are addicted, which is I think almost everybody, to different things, they're looking for the next thing. They're looking for the next thing, the next exit, the next exit, the next escape, the next escape. And again, there goes that stillness piece that we talked about earlier. If you can pause and reflect on what you have done and how far you have made it, yeah, that's probably gonna do something to your self-trust. That is probably gonna do something to your confidence. Yeah. And it is probably gonna change the way you operate in the world.
unknownMm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I I do I do see that now. The celebration part of, you know, this is why I like to change the way that we count days. You know, so if you're in my program for 90 days or eight hundred and eighty days, I will say, we're gonna start your day count the first day. If if you use 30 days in, then we're gonna say you still have 30 days, you've used once in 30 days.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If if you have 60 days, you've used once in 60 days.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But and because there is such this tendency to discount every single thing we do of 100%. Yeah, but I also did that. Yeah, but I also did that. You know, instead of like you're saying, just take it, take the win. That's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Import the win. Yeah, that's beautifully said, Dallas. I I I think you're hit the nail right on the head. One of the reasons, and and I'm not here to to to uh dog any program or you know, like AA just at the end didn't work for me. It works for a lot of people. But I'll never forget I went to a meeting and someone was like, you get sponsees or you die and you're not doing the work. And I was like, I gotta go. Like, I am gonna start drinking today. Right, exactly. And and there is that. Like, look, we live in the United States. I don't, you know, I'm sure you have people, you know, in your program um and listening to the podcast all over the world, but there is this glorified more, do more, accomplish more. Hey, once you, you know, you hit this checklist, once you've got the job, once you got the money, once you got the husband, once you got the threpple, once you've got all this, then you can rest. Then you're okay, then this, then you're loved, then your life's complete, then you're, you know, da da da da da. But until you have all of that, yeah, you've you've not made it. You know? Yeah. It's it's it's really, really, really heartbreaking. And I get it. Those of you that are out there using today, I I'll say this straight to you guys. Those of you that are out there using today, I get it. I understand. It is hard out there sometimes. It is sad out there sometimes. It is challenging out there sometimes. But I want to be loved just as much. And you do not have to go through that experience alone. I do not think we were made to be on this planet alone.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that this a pr it's an issue, right? Because I have so many guys say, if I don't have grinder, how am I ever going to meet anyone? How can I not be alone? You know, there are alternatives to career, I promise. I promise. Yoga. A grocery store. A grocery store. A meetup. The library. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So can you talk to us then about your work more? Um, I see I have your website here, a space for men. Um, it looks like there's men's gatherings. So there's I'm gonna read for you not for the for you listening, guided conversations and reflection, honest connection without judgment, emotional support, and authentic sharing, personal growth through presence and vulnerability, brotherhood rooted in trust, purpose, and community. To me, that is that covers everything we need post-meth, like to reintegrate and connect. Like you said, opposite of addiction is connection, but what an opportunity. Can you tell us more about how this works?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, uh I think the the easiest way is I built what I didn't have. Very sim very very similar to to you. You you built what you what was needed in the world. And you know, the beauty of uh having our own individual experiences is I have a lens. You know, my lens comes from a very broken home and sex work and all the things, and and in my experience to this day. And um, you know, there there are a lot of ways to connect and do the work. Um, I work with um it's so funny, I have such a range. You know, I do executive coaching where I work with CEOs who are high profile and they're running their companies and they want to be better bosses and better husbands and better brothers and better sons and all the things. And and also, you know, they want some support in their in their in their business. And I've scaled, you know, my own business, you know, from nothing to two million. And you know, I have that experience of just being uh, I don't know, I figure gay audacity. I like I will figure it out. Right. Yeah. Wow. And and that's just like one of my branches, you know, and the other branches are I lead online men's circles and you know, they're open to everybody. It's it's free or donation based. We don't turn anyone away for funds. And it is a space where you get to practice. And by practice, I always come in with some breath work. There's going to be some sort of embodiment. Uh last time I did embodiment as a dance party, you just like move your body and and dance and shake it out. Yeah. And then there's normally a teaching. And you know, not so giving away my trade secrets. I say the things that I need to hear that week. Right. Yeah. If I need to, if I'm talking about you know integrity, it's because I'm talking to myself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I relate to that.
SPEAKER_01And then there's space for for men to support men. You know, if someone is going through something, you were sitting in a room, you know, online or or in person with 10, 12, 15 other, sometimes 20 other people, and that's 20 different lenses of experience. Some people might have gone through the cancer with their husband, some people might have gone through the loss of the job or or, you know, it's not a recovery room, although there are a lot of people that, you know, naturally are on the Danny train because I am sober and and I love it. It's great. I think we get to learn from so many things. Um, and so that's one way. And then I lead uh, you know, in-person experiences. And so yeah, there's I think the biggest thing right now that's that's most exciting out of all of it is um I'm recognizing, you know, in that stillness piece that you said earlier, is a lot of us have a hard time finding it. And sometimes meditation can be a little boring. And so I recorded a meditation album and it's completely free. It's coming out on Spotify at the end of September. But I did some meditations, you know, the the name of the album is From Peace to Pain, or From Pain to Peace, rather. And um and I I basically I just thought about like, oh, what are the things that I need to hear when I'm going through grief? What are the things that I need to hear when I am feeling alone? What are the things that I need to hear when I need to come back to my body? And um and then I added some music that I thought was a little more interesting. You know, it's it's not the water trickling in the background and the Okay. You know, but I put some cool beats to it and uh it was it was one of those projects, Dallas truly, that was just like it's something it was it was there, and I tried just letting it go, and it it was like, nope, you have to do this.
SPEAKER_00Wow. And uh well, with your voice, I would imagine I would I would love to hear it in a meditation. Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. And it's uh I kind of laugh, you know, a lot of the work that we do outside of the embodiment. We do it ra we do sacred rage, you know, we do polarity work, we do sexual polarity, like you know, all of it. I think uh nothing makes me happier than putting people to sleep in in the best way. I put them in in in deep rest, you know, through meditation and and sound, and and and that's just it's such a beautiful place to be in your nervous system. To be in a room where you feel safe enough to let go to let someone hold you and facilitate that space is just transformative. You know, that 45 minutes can feel like an eight-day nap, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's what comes up for me a lot. I don't think I'm quite there yet. I mean, I in some ways I am, but I can remember seeing men's circles like this, like you were talking about two men were holding you, one was in front of you. To to be able to let somebody hold me was a huge deal after myth. I've talked about this before, like even sex after myth, I'm the I I'm doing it. You know, I'm giving the blowjob. Yeah, I'm doing this, I'm doing all the things, but yeah, you don't do anything to this.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. Um, it took me a very long time, and I've I've done a podcast with my intimacy friend that I have that kind of helped me with this, but very long time to allow somebody to to touch me at all. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of healing in that.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh, you know, I I think especially when it comes to chemsecs, you know, where we're fully checked out and you know, there are places that we go willingly, and there are some places that we let go of will unintentionally, and and we're taken there. And, you know, everyone always says the body keeps the score and and and that's a part of it. But it that you know, you talk about the neuropathways and how we forget or we remember the high. We definitely remember the high, and the brain programs up. The brain also programs the trauma that goes with it. And I, you know, it is a scientific fact. We are humans of the earth. And one of the things that we need is touch. You know, it is why people that have pets, you know, live longer by two years or whatever the case is, whatever this the stat is. But I'm a firm believer that we need touch, you know. I I'll never forget there was a practice that I was in in uh in one of the containers, and it was how do you want to receive love from your brothers, from another from other men? And it was through massage, through some words of affirmation, or through I think it was like sitting together, and everyone chose touch. Every single person chose touch. And you know, there's so many layers to unpack there. I'm sure for straight men, they they want they crave touch from other men. I think we need that. Just like gay men, we need touch from women too. Yeah. There's there's it's a certain texture that we can't get. Yeah. And it's almost like it's it's hard to ask for because it's wrong or or whatever the case may be. And with gay men, I would my story is, you know, are they gonna sexualize me? Is this gonna be more than that? Am I gonna be able to restrain myself? You know? That's right. And um and now it's something it's so funny. One of my good friends, he'll probably listen to this podcast. But I remember I texted him and I was like, hey, um, I need you to start holding my hand and like cuddling me and like da da da. And he was like, Well, yeah, I'm into this. And he's like, But I'm not gonna schedule like cuddle dates with you. And he's one of my best friends. You know, we're we're brothers, there's there's nothing else there. Yeah. And uh he gets it, you know. He's just like, Oh, yeah, this you just want to show love, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so yeah. I mean, there there is that question, like you're saying, like, is this going to be sexual? Does he want me? Is he rejecting me? Why is he, you know, there's a lot of that in your head too. You have to, I'm sure, drop out of that with the moment situation.
SPEAKER_01Do the meditations that that I that I did before you go into it and be in the moment. Just accept what is right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, for you listening, I know that this is this is something you want to go deep into. There's some maybe some words that that Danny used today that like even just somatic or embodiment or f masculine, feminine, that you want to go and and research on your own too. That if you don't understand it, but I'm telling you, I want you to probably listen to this one more than once and understand the value and the the the the the the the power that's behind this and just the living a life that's so different and and and living w as yourself. Um there's just we don't have to live in suffering every day. And and this this kind of work is what we need as gay men. So uh Danny, what did I leave out today? What do you think that I that we didn't talk about that you maybe thought we would have or wish we had of?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Um w we we I think one thing that I that I that comes to mind is, you know, we talk a lot about self-care and I think that's important. And I think it's a small piece of the puzzle. And so I think, you know, as as we round this out, one thing that I want to remind everybody is community care is needed. And reaching out to your community for support and help is 100% okay. And in fact, it's almost like who are you not to let your friends help? Uh right. You know, it's amazing that we get to laugh and dance together. It's a shame if I don't get to see you cry. I want to experience all of you, and I want to be with all of you.
SPEAKER_03Wow. That's that's big.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's big. Yeah. That's big. And I can feel the freedom in that. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Really appreciate it a lot. Thank you for your work. And um, yeah, I'm just really I I'm I'm I'm now in this Zen place at the end of this podcast, just be just listening to you. So I can't wait to get this. I can't wait to get these meditations. Yeah, coming out soon coming out soon.
SPEAKER_01It's a very exciting, exciting project.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna be fli I'm gonna be uh levitating in the air. I hope so. What happened in Dallas? Well, he's moved to the next round, so yeah. Risen Master. That's right. Thank you for being here today. Uh thank you for listening as well. If you want to join in the conversation, you can always comment on Spotify. You can comment on YouTube, you can DM me on social social media. We're going to put Danny's uh Instagram and other other social media contact in the show notes as well. I'm sure he wouldn't mind you reaching out to him too. Apparently, he checks all of his DMs. Sure do. No robots involved. I cannot say that. I cannot say that. But yes, you you messed you voicemailed me. Voicemailed me. That's right. Yeah. Thank you, Danny. Thank you, everyone else, and we'll see you next week. Thanks, Dallas.
