EP 3:51 The Family Dynamics of Chemsex Users

Supplemental Study Guide: https://www.recoveryalchemy.org/newsletters/blog/posts/dynamics

Dallas Bragg has been asked one question more than almost any other: what do I do when someone I love is using? In this episode of The AfterMeth Podcast, he finally sits down with someone equipped to answer it. Charlie Bray is a counselor, former treatment center clinician, and family and loved ones recovery coach with 18 years in recovery, years of facilitating family intensives alongside Mell McCracken, and lived experience on both sides of addiction in a family. Dallas opens with his own story: a mother who thought his drug arrest meant marijuana, made every mistake in the book, and eventually did the right thing. Charlie's central point reframes the whole conversation. Family dynamics exist long before anyone picks up a substance, and the using is usually a symptom of how the family already operates.

The conversation is packed with practical wisdom for parents, partners, and friends. Charlie and Dallas redefine "help" as something other than convincing and managing, unpack why fear so often shows up as anger, and walk through Pia Mellody's framework for codependency and where real self-worth comes from. They tackle the hardest scenarios head on: lending money ("I won't give you cash, but I'll pay for treatment"), refusing to let someone use in your home as an act of love, what to say at the emergency room, and the partner who keeps disappearing on binges. Running through it all is Charlie's insistence that loving someone does not mean funding their slow death, and that a held boundary tells your loved one, without words, that you believe they are capable. This is part one of two, and it previews the Holiday Healing webinar series for addicts and the people who love them, launching in November.

Contact Charlie:

Instagram: @family.recovery

Email Address: charlie@cbbrecoveryservices.com

The AfterMeth:

Join our Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/theaftermeth/

Dallas Bragg

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter: https://www.drdallasbragg.com/newsletters/blog

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drdallasbragg

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdallasbragg/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdallasbragg

YouTube: The Aftermeth Podcast

X: https://twitter.com/Drdallasbragg

Free online course to End the Relapse Cycle: https://www.drdallasbragg.com/offers/e7c2Eo22/checkout

Meth-Free Blueprint EBOOK: https://www.drdallasbragg.com/offers/o8qFhK5i/checkout

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What do you say to a parent who uh uh what do you what would you say what do you say to parents anyway? I mean, you know, how do how do you separate, how do you not blame yourself, how do you not personalize it, internalize it, um, and and keep from you know, that that fear and that anger, like what what is a what is your advice, most your your best advice for parents of addicts? Chemsex. Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others. Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast. Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dallas. Thank you for being here. And you are in for a treat today as I introduce um a new friend. And I just there's just some people that you meet and you're just like instantly BAM! You're just, you know, it's like you've known each other for years and years and years. And this person, Charlie Bray, is one of those people, and it's not a mistake, I'm sure, that Charlie is also uh friends with Mel McCracken, who is also my my sole sibling. Um, so I am excited for Charlie to be here, but I'm also very, very excited to cover a topic that you all have asked me about for years now, that I have never been able to really find anyone to meet the needs for that topic, and that is family members of our of chemsex users, or we can say addicts, but chemsex users. Family members, what do we do? How do we handle what is the best thing for us? How do we help? Um, when are we hurting? Um, I get asked these questions constantly, and one of the first reasons, one of the main reasons I started this podcast was because my own mother, when I told her, you know, the first time I told her I was using was when I got arrested. And um I said I got arrested for drug possession. And she was like, You're using marijuana? You know, that was the worst thing she could think of was that I was smoking marijuana. Um little did she know I was using meth. And so she had no clue on how what chemsex was or what it meant, how to help. She made a lot of mistakes. She finally at the end did the right thing and helped, you know, helped my trajectory to recovery. But I would this is one of the reasons I wanted to make this podcast is for siblings and friends, mothers, fathers, partners to have a resource to go to to educate themselves about chem sex, but also how do I help, right? What do I do? And so this podcast is going to be extremely helpful for so many people around the world. And I'm so glad and honored to have you here, Charlie. Welcome.

SPEAKER_05 3:05

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited. I love your story. I I'm a person um that also suffers with addiction. I've been clean and sober for 18 years, which is kind of nuts. Um to say out loud.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

It's so wild. I actually celebrated 18 years the day that I dropped my daughter off to her first day of preschool.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Wow. What a day.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

What a like what a crazy I don't know, life. It's so beautiful and amazing, but I never thought ever I'd be here, right? And I like never knew life could be this good either. Um, I'll get tearful if I talk too much about it.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

But um go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 3:57

But I also, so I'm a person who also has family members that are in active use and in recovery. Um, I have a family that's full of eating disorder, mental health issues, all this stuff, right? And so that's my personal experience that I lend to whatever I'm talking about all the time. And then I also went back to school, became a counselor, worked in treatment for many years. And now I'm primarily working as a family and loved ones recovery coach. So I work with a lot of people that suffer with codependency, um, that love people that have issues, that have issues themselves and have difficult dysfunctional family dynamics, right? So that's what I'm primarily working in currently. Um and because I want to spend a lot of my time also with my daughter while I can before she goes into school full time. Um, so I'm not working in a treatment center currently, but I probably will return at some point because I love it. Um, and when I worked in treatment, I facilitated a lot of family intensives um where families would come to the treatment center and where the person was receiving treatment and help uh in recovery. Worked with Mel for many years. They're amazing. Um and uh we did like, you know, three-day-long or a week-long workshops talking about dynamics in the family and difficulties that people experience in family patterns and the way that the family operates that kind of lend to everyone in the family suffering, not just the person in active use or in starting recovery, right? Like, because these dynamics occur way before the person picks up a drink or a drug. Yeah. Right. And so that's kind of me in a nutshell, but I was so I was relating to you. I'm like talking about being soul, sisters, brothers, whatever, soul family. Um my I got arrested when I was 18. Maybe I was seven. No, I was 18. And for public intoxication intoxication, right? Like, and I kept it from my family. I thought it was being all cool, right? And then they sent a copy of my arrest record, the Philadelphia police to my parents' home in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Oh, wow. I'm not even I don't think so. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 6:39

And they got it and found out and were like, what? Right? Like, and um, I remember being devastated and being like, I thought I had that, like that they would never find out, you know. But my father, they didn't have any idea, you know, to the extent what was happening with me. Um, but my father at the time I remember he was like, you know, I did a lot of dumb things when I was young, but I never got caught. Oh, the problem is I got caught, right? The drinking's not a problem. That's the issue. Right. Like, so I just have to keep my secrets better. Right. And that's a whole other podcast. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:23

Anyway, thank you for having me. And I'm excited to be here. And I'm really excited if I can in any way fill a void in healing that exists within the community.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yes. Well, you are, you are, and so be excited. Um, and I just want to say first, if you're listening, that we Charlie and I are working together to um create a series, a webinar series that starts in November. Um the title is a working title, but right now we're at Holiday Healing, Support for Addicts and the People Who Love Them. Um, so what we're doing is we're providing a place for the loved ones of it, doesn't have to be just chemsex, but you know, if you're listening to this, you're probably it's probably going to be mostly chemsex. I would like it to be mostly chemsex because we're going to be able to relate on a different level. But family members, loved ones, I will say loved ones of chemsex users, but also chemsex users who also want to navigate family dynamics and know kind of what they could do, what they should do, you know, what they what they might expect. But we're going to start this in November. It'll be a we meet in November, we meet in December, and then we meet in January as a kind of after-action look reflection of how well did it go? And what can we do next time? Because right around, you know, then there's Easter after that, you know, for a lot of people. So they're going to have to navigate another holiday series. But we are working on that. I want you to watch for that coming through. We're going to be putting it on social media as much as possible. Um, I'm going to be reaching out to treatment centers than anybody else that we can. So we really, this is a much needed gap in services that are out there. Yes, there is Al-Anon, but Al-Anon doesn't touch into the specifics of chemsex. So we we're working on that. It's going to be an amazing, an amazing offering. So keep watching for that, and we're going to be, I'll be putting more information out soon.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

Yes. I think it's really important too, not because the holidays are, oh, there's so many parties and there's so many many opportunities for relapse. Like, because that's that's everybody knows that. And that is part of it, right? But I think what's really difficult is there's a lot of rituals, right? Like there's a lot of we always do this around the holidays, or we always, you know, go to this person's house, you know, who's always passive aggressive, or we always do, you know, have this fight about who's picking up this from this place, right? Or like we always have this fight about this person who's always late, or maybe they're not even gonna show up, right? Like, and then, you know, this person pretends like everything's fine and this person freaks out, right? So it's just like, you know, there's there's always, and there's maybe like the person who's using is like, or who's in early recovery is realizing some of these things. I didn't realize how much they stress me out, right? Like, or I need to be able to make a meeting and my family is mad that I need to go to a meeting, you know, or I need to like connect with my sponsor, but they're they're frustrated that I'm on my phone, you know, every day, blah, blah, blah, and not being super present with them. And how do we navigate that in a way that's gonna work out for everybody, right? Instead of just like the loved ones imposing these these demands, and then the person in recovery imposing demands, right? Like there's a lot of navigation of that that requires a little bit of skillfulness. And I I love it you brought up Al-Anon because I love Al-Anon. You know, I think it's amazing for people to really start to learn how to tune into themselves and listen. Like, am I hungry right now? Am I tired? Do I want to take this phone call? Do I not? And this is this applies to everyone, right? Like, because I've lost myself in this whole thing. I've lost my ability to sense into my internal cues of what I'm feeling, what I'm needing. You know, I don't even know why I'm fighting with people sometimes, right? We're we're going into these patterns. And so uh I should just stop it there, but Al-Anon. But I I oh, well, I think about Al-Anon, you know, there's there's this saying in Al-Anon. Um for people who love people that are in use or in recovery, there's no word, no phrase, no sentence, no paragraph that can change your loved one. Right, because loved ones often spend a lot of time, a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to change or educate or help or convince or coax or manage their loved one. And Alanon says this to really help a person let go of that efforting, right? Like it's like so much effort all the time, and it's really unsuccessful, right? And depleting and tragic. Um but I do think that there are ways of being with your loved one and with yourself that are helpful to the situation versus harmful, right? And so it's it's good to go, you know, let's stop trying to change the person, which Al-Anon gives us. But I think there's more to learn about how to be, how to be inside of oneself and interact with your loved one that can actually help elevate the situation and elevate the level of communication and love, right? Like so there's not nothing you can do, right? But the the focus is almost turned more inward on how can I change inside of myself, shift inside of myself, how I'm behaving, how I'm thinking, so that it kind of changes the result of what happens between me and my loved one.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, I like that. I like that. So because what you're saying to me is for loved ones, let me redefine what help means. Because it could mean to me as a family member, I could think helping means convincing them to stop or taking them to rehab, or you know, what those kind of things is what we think I'm going to help them. But let's redefine what help is because I'm not going to make somebody go to rehab. I'm not going to make somebody stop using because that's that's expecting them to change and expecting them to make a decision, right? Based on on what I am forcing them to do. But let me let me find a way that I can help that's both helpful for me and them, but but in a redefine it in a new way. Is that right?

SPEAKER_05 14:50

Yeah. Yeah. Because we think about help in this, like, like I'm gonna help, like basically, I'm just gonna help them get clean.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

Right? Like, or I'm gonna help them. Like, I I love this um, you know, there's a generational gap that happens too, like with people and their parents or things like this, right? Like, if I just help them get a job, then they won't be so miserable. Or if I just help them find someone to marry, they won't be so sad. You know, it's like this. So we see it very clearly in this kind of like um this way that other people might think about other problems. But we we totally get blinded by substance use and think, oh, well, this is different though. If I just help them stop using substances, and then I the methods and the strategies that I use to help them are often shaming or they're condescending, or they're unskillful, really, if I'm being generous, like just unskillful. People who really deeply love and are trying their hardest, well-intentioned, but are causing disconnection between their them and their loved one, causing more feelings of resentment or distance than they mean to, and then the person is less likely to come to them for help when they actually are ready.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Because you and I both know like if someone is not ready, they're not ready to get help. And that's a very scary place for a loved one to be. Right? Because watching someone that you love do things that are self-harming is devastating. And it's terrifying. And I think the thing that I think about the most probably, and maybe because I'm a person who suffers with this issue myself, is like a lot of us when we are really, really scared, we're really terrified, we get angry. Yeah. Right? Like, why are you doing this? How could you do this? Like, don't you see what you're doing? Like, don't you see that I'm hurting, that you're hurting us, that you like that we are scared, blah, blah, blah, you know, or we're just cold and angry. You know, and and it's very hard for the person in active use to see through that anger to, oh, my per my family loves me and they're just terrified.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

Right.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Right? Because all it feels like is they're just angry at me again, or they're just upset with me again, or I'm just disappointing them again. Yeah. And so I think part of what we're looking to create is a space for people to really shed some of those protective shields that cause more disconnection.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, because you mentioned earlier, am I hungry, angry, right? So basically halt. Halt for the family for the loved one, right? Am I hungry, angry, lonely, tired? So I'm going to check in with that first before I approach my addict, loved one, because most of the time I'm just going to make things worse. Like you said, if I'm acting out of anger, which is really fear. Anger is a anger is always a secondary emotional, right? But if I'm also hangry, hangry, yeah, hangry too. Hungry. If I'm also lonely, if I'm also tired, like those are times when I'm not coming to them at my best, and it's never probably going to work out the way that we I think it is. Which is which is also, I think, uh important here to when you're reframing what helps. If you if you can manage the expectation, then you don't end up feeling like you're the loser, like you're missing the mark. Like I haven't done my job as a loved one because they're still using. It's like if you if you use that as your metrics of whether or not they relapse again, then you're just setting yourself up to feel worse and worse about yourself, right?

SPEAKER_05 19:21

Yeah. Because really, like codependency, which is is a whole can of worms, and I can open it up.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

I want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

Like at its core, at its core is like everyone in in the family or in the group of loved ones or in the relationship, right? The person that has substance use and the person that loves them is probably suffering with this. And it's it's a way of relating to another person where you have lost sight of your own self, your own individuality, your own worth and value. And in a way, you're trying to gain your worth and value by helping or managing or fulfilling a need for another person.

unknown 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

Right? Like that's not the entirety of codependency, but it's a very big wing. Right? Of like, and so there becomes this cycle of maybe even it started when you met the person. Let's say there's a romantic relationship, right? Like, oh, this person over here needs me for whatever reason, right? Because they're disorganized and they need me to help them get their life together, right? Or or uh, you know, it could be like, oh, they drink too much and they're trying to get it together, or whatever, right? That's when it starts, you know, and then this person is like, oh, I can help.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:04

Right. And then they help that person and they feel good about themselves and they like the help, right? Like, yeah, and then it's like I have worth and value because this person is paying attention to me and really like giving me everything, right? And it's it sets off this cycle of like each person is gaining their esteem through the relationship rather than two people knowing they have worth and value and coming together to enjoy each other's company. Yeah.

unknown 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

Does that make sense so far?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm picking it up.

unknown 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

I mean, that's that's what I did in my marriage. You know, I hated everything about myself. And so I took care of and saved a wife who wanted, you know. And listen, there's also the dynamic of the person who need who think they need taken care of.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Right?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

They're their self esteem. Solo that I have I need someone to save me.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Too, right? So that was that dynamic. And then my kids didn't have to think, feel, you know, I did everything for everyone. And that's how I got my self-worth, my my purpose. I'm here as I'm here as the savior. Everything about me is shoved back into a closet, but I'm going to, you know, save everybody else, and I'm always there. Right. And very codependent. So that's a that's a little ill illustration about what you're saying, I think. Um and yes, I see this with partners who contact me, you know, or they they meet somebody who they're physically attracted to, and when they and when they talk to them while sober, there's a there's a deep connection. But then there's just this pesky little thing called addiction, where they it if you know they disappear for about a week going on a chemsex bench, and then they think, I'm gonna save this person. I'm sober, I don't want to do chemsex, I'm here as the savior, I'm gonna fix them. That's just never gonna work, is it?

SPEAKER_05 23:12

So this is the reason that I have difficulty with having like my own um social media brand, is that I don't it's hard for me to make blanket statements.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

So never is not a word that we should use there, right?

SPEAKER_05 23:27

Right. Because well, here's the deal. If you really break it down, like let's reduce it down. Yeah. Almost every single person on this earth, if this is a blanket statement I was gonna make, yeah, is attracted to traits, good and bad, yeah, in a partner that remind them of their parents.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yes.

unknown 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Right? Like that's a blanket statement I feel comfortable making. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 23:57

So when you tell me like that scenario, okay, I I met this person sober, we had this great connection conversation. It was like immediate, right? For me, that attraction always stems from there's something familiar, family, familiar, right? Like in that attraction that is spiking something internally for me that reminds me of my family of origin. Right. Whether that's a wound or not is up for debate. Right? Like, and so I'm immediately, I have this intensity or this connection with someone. It could remind me of intensity in my family of origin. Right. It could remind me of how they connect or disconnect, how they relate to definitions of love or relate to their own pain or not. Right. Like, so even though it's like, oh, we're just flirting, we're just having fun, like there is a whole, like, you know, an interpersonal neurobiology, basically, which is like my jam. I love it. Um, you know, we have all these neurons firing inside of us that are picking up on tiny little details about the person subconsciously, like beneath our consciousness, beneath our thinking mind that are like, oh, this is like we know this, right? Like we've seen this before, but now it's newer, it's spicier, it's got a very attractive person in front of it, right? Like, so we're like, oh yeah, give me more of that, right? Like how they they really are into us, and then they they don't text us back for seven hours. Like that might be that, and then they're so happy that we text and we had all that like depletion and fear, and why aren't they texting me back? And then we got, oh yes, they can't, they can't wait to hear from us, right? Like that from might remind me of a a pattern with my parent, right? Like, who knows? Um, but all that to say, like that initial attraction, even that is something that usually the person has to do some reflection on, yeah, right. And I'm not saying that that can't work out, right? Like, I'm married to somebody that I thought was totally different than my parents. Totally different. I thought they were nothing like my father, right? They have a lot of things in common, you know. 13 years later, I'm like, oh, okay, wow. You know, like because my my nervous system, my brain, they're all picking up on stuff that I couldn't see myself. Right. And so we've had to work through some of these patterns, and I've had to work through, wow, like this is me. I feel like a teenager, like the way that I'm wanting to react in this situation or the way that I'm wanting to escape, or whatever else when there's tension or friction.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:09

So I'm kind of going way off track here.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

No, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's it's good. It's good. It's good because this this is, you know, this is what I had to realize with men is that I wanted the men who did not treat me well or was it were were aloof that I couldn't uh I couldn't reach because it was the dynamic I had with my dad, always trying to get his attention, always trying to get his affection, always chasing that. But if a man was like all about me and was complimentary and you know, and and just like I was like, ew, you know, you know, that's that's that doesn't attract me. I want you to, you know, treat me, I want you to uh ignore me, you know. Yes, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:55

Yes, one hundred percent. I mean, yeah, okay. So the woman who came up with the term codependence, PM Melody, I'm so very lucky that my mentor studied under her.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

So her framework is something that I work in and with a lot. Um and I highly recommend to everyone the book Facing Codependence. It's amazing. Okay. Um, but this is really highlighting something that she talks about a lot, which is self-esteem and knowing your value. Right. And a lot of times if you suffer with codependency, you have an injury to the sense of self-worth. And so when you walk in a room, you're always measuring who am I better than, who am I worse than. Yeah. I'm better than this person, I'm worse than this person, right? I make less money than them, so I'm worse than, or I'm more attracted to them, so I'm better than, right? Like there's always like a sizing up happening constantly in the mind. Right. And when you're talking about, like, you know, people who thought I was great, you know, the mind actually goes like, oh, well, then they must be less than. Yeah. Right? Like, because if I'm better than them, I'm they're less than me, right? I want someone who thinks they're better than me to think I'm great. Right. And so it does, it kind of like feeds into that chase on top of you've already had this experience with your father where it's difficult to get attention.

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

Yeah. And so I think, and I think we really like we talk about attention in in a kind of gross way a lot of times, like because attention matters.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Right.

SPEAKER_05 29:42

Right? Like, but we're like, like when we talk about kids, oh, they just want attention. They're just trying to get your attention, you know, or like that person's posting because they want attention. And it's like attention is like the most valuable commit commodity in relationships, period.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

Like if my partner doesn't give me any attention, how would I ever know that he loved me?

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

If my mother never gave me any attention, I would not know that she loved me.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:14

Right. And so it's like attention matters.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Right. It's the motivation behind why you need the attention or why you want the attention, I would say. Or if you're consciously trying to get it to solve your worth, your self-worth need. That's why validation is also you can have there's good validation. Everybody needs validated. Right. But if I need that validation to feel better about myself, if that's what I feel like is, you know, that's a difference, I think.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

Yes. Right. Like I'm again, the but going back to what I said a few minutes ago, like if I'm trying to get my worth and value through you.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

Rather than self-esteeming.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

You know, creating my own worth and value, knowing I have it. Yeah. Always. That my my imperfection as a human doesn't take away from my worth and value. My addiction doesn't take away from my worth and value.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

My difficulty, you know, loving someone in addiction doesn't take away my love, my worth and value, right? Like there's so much shame around having problems or having issues or not being able to accomplish a goal or loving someone who's struggling. And it's so silly.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:31

Like all these people have worth and value. And just because they're suffering with a problem or a mental illness or a difficulty in life doesn't take away at all from their worth and value.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:45

But when clinicians like me say stuff like that, it's like, what? Revolutionary. Never heard of that before. Right. Because everyone has this assumption like something is wrong with me or something is less banned with me because I have addiction or because I love someone or someone in my family does.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Right. Right. So I think that that's that that that's what I see with parents often, right? Is that their child is a reflection of how well they've done as a parent or them as a as a person. And a lot if you're getting your worth and your value by how well your child's doing is so volatile and now they're an addict. So what does that say about me? Right. So what what would you say to a parent who what do you what would you say? What do you say to parents anyway? I mean, you know, how do how do you separate, how do you not blame yourself? How do you not personalize it, internalize it, um, and keep from you know that that fear and that anger? Like what what is a what is your advice, most your your best advice for parents of addicts?

SPEAKER_05 33:00

This is where I'm like, oh, there's it's it's so big, right? It's so big. It's so difficult to make a blanket statement because every like you know, every person is different, every family's different, it's all case by case, right? Like um so I'm trying to think of like what what can always be true.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Yeah. Like what what can always be true is that when your child is suffering.

SPEAKER_05 33:45

It doesn't matter why they're suffering. It doesn't matter if you caused it or someone else caused it, or addiction caused it.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

You want to create a space that is open to help alleviate the suffering.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

Because we can deal with the guilt that you might have about things that have happened. We can deal with fights you've had or unskillful interactions you've had, we can deal with those things later when some of the suffering has eased. But right now, if your person, your child is suffering, you don't want to make it about you and what if you're good enough or not good enough. You want to create a space for your child to get well, and whether your child chooses to get well or not is their choice, especially if they're an adult cho child, right? But you want to create a space in which they might come to you for help when they need it. And if you are really kind of like wrapped up in this evaluation of your own motherhood or fatherhood, you won't be able to really extend a hand to them.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

That's what I would say is is almost always true.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yeah. I love that. I I love that. They're they're suffering, doesn't matter why. And though the next thing, the next question I'm gonna have is at what point are we enabling Okay what what point are we causing more suffering without meaning to?

SPEAKER_05 36:04

Okay, because this is immediately after I said all that stuff, I was like, the thing that people are gonna follow up with are like, well, what does it mean creating a space to be there to help them if they need help, right? Like, or like you're saying, like at what point are we enabling, right? Because loving someone doesn't mean funding their slow death. Loving someone does not mean taking responsibility for the things in their life that they're supposed to take responsibility for. That's right.

unknown 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:44

Right? Like, and you know, granted, everyone is allowed to make their own definitions of love, but I think that we would universally say loving someone is something we do that helps encourage life rather than destruction or smallness or death or narrowness. Right? Like you don't think about like live and let live, love and let love, you know, like you're you're it feels open, it feels expansive, it feels energetic, it feels life-giving, right? But love, if love makes something more difficult, more bogged down, more uh narrow, you know, that doesn't feel like love to a lot of people, right? And so I think loving someone and creating a space for them that is loving when they're suffering takes boundaries, appropriate boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Right. Which means things like, oh, okay, like you want to borrow money, but your inactive use, I don't hear from you for per periods of time. Our relationship is suffering because I'm in fear all the time and you just disappear on me. Right. Like, and so it's impacting how I feel on a daily basis, and I'm scared and I don't know what you're actually gonna use the money for. Are you gonna pay your rent? Are you gonna go out and use? I don't know, right? Then I would say, I'm sorry, I don't think I can help you out financially. I can help you out by you can come stay with me. You um, I'm here as an ear for you if you want to talk to me. Even though that can be scary if your person is in psychosis, right? Like I that's a whole whole other conversation. Um I've experienced that myself, and it's it's uh very terrifying. Um so or or it's going like, I would love to help you out financially. Um I will give you money if you want to go into a treatment center. Then I will be able to lend you money. Right? I'll be able to um pay for you to get into a sober living. Right? Like then I would be able to help you financially because then the person has a choice. They're forced into a choice, like, oh, I can either try and go get the money somewhere else, or I can take the money from my loved one and try to get help. And the choice is on them, right? Instead of the loved one feeling like, oh, I didn't, I I just said no, and now they're gonna go do all this stuff to try and get money, or they're gonna be homeless, or blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, I'm I'm going, like, I will give you some money if you go into a treatment center. I will help you pay for that. I'll help you pay for a sober living, right? But I also think it's appropriate if you don't have any money to lend, because this happens too, to just go, I don't have any money to lend you. I wish I could help you, but I don't have that. What I have is to offer is my love, my care. Uh you can come stay on my couch for a night or two until you figure things out, right? Like there's there's a way that we can be helpful without like really hurting ourselves or our own financial state, right? But these things are difficult to navigate because people get so dysregulated thinking if I don't help, they'll die. Or if I don't help, they'll be homeless.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

Right. And that that is very scary and it's very real, right? Because having boundaries means that the person in use has to actually take responsibility for themselves. Right. Right. Right. And what they do with that responsibility, you don't know. Sometimes they will, you know, blow up their life. Sometimes they'll, you know, flounder and flail for a minute, but they will figure it out. But they definitely won't figure it out if you keep bailing them out.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 41:25

And for the loved one, they really need support through that. Right? Because maybe they have the ability to say no for like a day or two, and then they freak out because the maybe the person in use is texting them, like, you abandoned me, you didn't help me, blah, blah, blah. That happens, right? You don't care about me. And they're like, I do care. I just want to help you in the right way. Bah, blah, blah. And they're like, you don't love me. And then they're like, fine, here's $600, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Right. And so the loved one really needs support because what ends up happening is the person in use doesn't believe in themselves enough that they can get better or that they can figure it out. Right underneath all of that stuff. It's like, I need someone to save me. I won't be able to save myself. I won't be able to figure it out myself.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

And when a person, a loved one, has boundaries and goes, I believe that you are going to figure this out, or that you're going to rise to the occasion, or that you're going to get better, and I'll help you. I'll stand by and support you getting better. It's almost as if they're talking to their loved one as if they are capable. And then the the person in use might actually ponder for a moment maybe I am capable. Maybe I'm not as useless, worthless, unable, unable, you know, like incapable as I thought. Because they are thinking that they know I can do it.

SPEAKER_04 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:08

And that's something that is a rare thing to kind of elicit. And take some skillfulness and some courage.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah. Yeah. Which is what Yeah, it does, which is why I think you know, you keep mentioning skillfulness. So anyone, a loved one of a chem sex user in our case, having some type of coach like you to help them through this can teach them some skill, teach them some way to to word what they have what they want to say, when they want to say it, you know, how they want to say it, but also how do I take care of me and how do I shift the paradigm? Because, you know, if a with a parent says, You're not allowed here anymore, right? Like you're not allowed here anymore, and then And they not knowing that there's they to them, they're sending them to their death. Like you said, they they they get into this disregard place, then they get a call from the emergency room. You know, because a lot of a lot of guys will uh are more and more kin sex users are going to the emergency room, they're getting overamped, you know, or they go into psychosis, you know, or whatever, whatever it is. Their heart their heart starts, you know, they they think they're having a stroke or something like that. They go to the emergency room, well, they're their parent, they call their parents, right? So the parents can blame themselves, or they can they have a decision. Like, do I leave him there in the hospital with nowhere to go?

SPEAKER_05 44:42

Or I mean, go to the hospital, go see him first.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Do I bring him? Do I let him come back? Is the question.

SPEAKER_05 44:50

Oh. Okay. There's two things here, right? The first is kind of the issue of not letting someone in the house, which I do want to address because I think that's really important. And the second is how do you respond to someone who's like in an emergency situation, right? Yeah. Um, because it is true. Like sometimes when you have a boundary and you like it will go poorly, right? Like the person will go hurt themselves or they'll go, you know, use or get in an even worse situation, right? Like that is true. And that's why loved ones need support because that's scary, that in-between time, right? And it's even scarier if they then get the call or they're in their emergency room. I just want to say thank God they made it to the emergency room. Yeah, right. First and foremost, right? Like that's that's a positive, actually. And emergency room is a great place to go. I'm here, I love you, you're not alone. And then just be with them. Not trying to preach or manage or convince or coax, right? Like, but letting them know, like, you know, if you get out of here, when you get out of here, if you want, I just want you to know the offer still stands, I'll help you get help.

unknown 46:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:21

If you want it. Right. You don't have to say it ten times, you only got to say it once. Okay. And let the emergency room do the heavy lifting. That fear that they must feel, the pain that they feel. I mean, not everybody does, I'll be real with you, right? Like people go to the emergency rooms multiple times, they don't care.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

I know. Right? So, like, that's a reality too.

SPEAKER_00 46:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Right.

unknown 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

So that this is why I'm like, it's case by case.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

It is, it is. Yeah. But um it is case by case.

SPEAKER_05 46:55

But I do think I think something about like going, okay, this is a very real thing, and it cut it goes across a lot of different addictions, even just alcoholism, right? Which I when I say just alcoholism, minimizes it. But millions of people die of alcoholism every year. So it's not like it's nothing. Um, so when parents or even spouses or loved ones or roommates or friends go, like, I can't have you in my house. You can't be in my house.

SPEAKER_04 47:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:27

Right. What they're actually doing in that moment, and I think this is why our holiday course is really important for both addicts and loved ones to be there, because this information is so helpful to both people, and to hear both people's perspective on it is so enlightening for everyone. But what they're actually doing is going, if I let you in here, you will do something that makes you hate yourself, and I will do something that makes me disrespect myself. Right? Like if I let you steal from me. Yeah. Right? Like if I know when you come in the house, some of my jewelry goes missing. Right? Or when I let you come in the house, by 24 hours later, you start calling me the C word or the B word or whatever, right? Like, because I won't give you more money, or I won't, you know, or I said something that pissed you off, or whatever, right? Like then we get in a fight and there's name calling. So I know when you come in this house, you put our relationship at risk. It damages our relationship, right? Because you're gonna, and and especially I think it's really important this part your addiction is gonna have you behave in a way that makes you not feel good about yourself. And I don't want my space to be a space where you don't like yourself. Right? Like even I remember going home to visit my family. I lived like 3,000 miles away. Uh actually it was a thousand. I lived a thousand miles away. But it was like I would go home and I would say hi and then I would sleep for like 30 hours, right?

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Oh, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

Because I was like coming down off of whatever, you know, and my my family would just be kind of like waiting to see when I was gonna hang out with them, right? And then I felt bad and I apologized, but I was working so much and I need to recover, blah, blah, blah, and all the lies that I told, right? And then it was like I didn't even want to go home because I felt so ashamed of the way that I behaved when I was there, right? And I knew that they knew something's wrong, but then they're not saying anything, right? And so it's like everybody's having to engage in this lying to themselves and this distance, and it's not good for the relationship, right? And so again, if like if I have a child who's like maybe I said no using in the house and they used, yeah. Right? Like I go, you know, I told you that, I meant it. I I love you endlessly, I always want you to come stay with me, but you used in the house and I told you you couldn't, so you cannot come back. Right? That is going, I love you so much, I will not let my house be an unsafe place for you. Right. Yeah. And that's like people are like, but then they're gonna go out and live on the street, you know, and it's okay. Well, maybe living on the street for a day or two is really gonna build some motivation to get help. Right. Like I know it, I know it's terrifying when I say that. Like, yeah, I have a child. I can't even imagine how difficult it is. Really? Like, it's so painful for me to even be like, go into preschool. Who knows if you get bullied there, you know, like my daughter's three, you know. So but it's like I understand that what I'm saying is unfathomably difficult, but it doesn't work the other way. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so you you have a choice like, do I do I keep going in the direction that we're going that doesn't work and gets worse, progressively worse? Like they come in my house, they lie to me, they do what I didn't want them to do, or they steal from me, or whatever. They hate themselves more and more and more, their use picks up and progresses, right? Or do I take a risk and change how I hold boundaries or how I keep our home safe and try something new and see what happens. Yeah. Right. And it really is I'm keeping the home safe for you by making sure you don't hurt yourself in my home. Right. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:19

So there's my very long list.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

It's good. Yeah. No. It's good. Um, so I I made some notes of some other scenarios that I have come across, right? One of the main ones, one of the main ones, and we talk of that, uh we've talked about it here on the podcast a lot, is the partner scenario where one usually they open the relationship, one of them finds meth out in the in their comings and goings, and then they get hooked. Okay. The partner will contact me, you know, how do I, what do I do? How do I help? You know, uh, you know, and what I find out is the the using partner is leaving, they're going to use, they're doing their binges, they're they're binging or whatever they're doing, going out for even if it's a day, maybe it's a week, maybe it's longer, and then they come back, the the the non-using partner cares so much for them and does love them that you know, here's here's some food, here's some water, go get some rest, that kind of thing. And so I have this little phrase that I use is as long as they have a man, a meal, and a mattress, they're going to keep using. Because there's no consequence. But the partner is like, this is my husband. Like, or this is my lifelong partner. What do I how do I do this? How do I navigate this? How do I you know, and that like how do I get them help? And I'm like, I always say, like, unless your partner, the using partner, is contacting me and asking me for help, they're they're not asking for it, they don't want it. So I I never know exactly what to say besides easy for me to say, set a boundary with a consequence and stick to it. You know, but that's you know, that's an easy answer for parents, partners, any loved one, friends, siblings, that's an easy answer. It's but it's not not easy to do, I'm sure. But what would you say to a partner who comes to you with that? That kind of situation of how do I help? How do I how do I convince him to stop or go to rehab?

SPEAKER_05 54:30

I would ask the partner what do you want your marriage to be? Right? Because my husband and I were very clear when we got married that we want to be together forever, right? Like that's that was our intention. However, there are deal breakers. Right? Like, I think that people are like kind of like super romantic and like thinking about marriage sometimes, but like if my husband abuses me, yeah, deal breaker.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:09

If he abuses my daughter, deal breaker. Yeah, right? Like and this is where I'm gonna challenge a person if my husband abuses himself in front of me and continually abuses himself, hurts himself and will not get help for it, like will not change. Is that a deal breaker? Right? Like, and I know that that's not like a yes or no for a lot of people, right? So, but I think that it matters because there's the two people and then the relationship, right? The relationship is this third thing, it's like this living dynamic thing, right? Like your relationship can be great, your relationship can be toxic, your relationship can be very tense at certain times, your relationship can be free-flowing and open, right? So the relationship is a thing that two people have to care for and manage and put effort into. And if you are standing by and watching someone hurt themselves, and they know that they're doing it, and that you're kind of just letting them even if a part of them, the addictive part, is going like, I want to do this. This is how I want to spend my time. I love this. You need to support me.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:38

Another part of them, deep down inside, is like, oh, I know I shouldn't be doing this. Well, I guess my partner's okay with it, so I'm gonna keep doing it for now, but I probably shouldn't. Right? And so it's kind of like you're gonna grow the relationship into a thing, not intentionally, but that is a place the relationship becomes a place where someone hurts themselves and you just watch it happen.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05 57:15

And let it happen. Right. And not only that, but you are letting go of your own wants or needs or hopes for the marriage. Right. And so I you know, first and foremost, it's about like do you want that for yourself? I would ask the partner, you know, like what were you hoping this marriage would look like? What would you what were you hoping the relationship would look like long term? You know, and getting clear on that because if you're clear on that, then you can have a conversation with the partner, whether it's directly or with a third party, about like, you know, I these are the things I want. I want us, I want you to not disappear for a week at a time. I want us to have regular Sunday dates. I want us to have, you know, powwows about where we're going and what we want to do and planning the future. I want to, you know, whatever it is that you want, being clear on it because once you've been clear on it, then the other partner has a decision to make. Am I gonna show up for my relationship or my marriage or am I not?

SPEAKER_03 58:29

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:31

Right? And then it's it's in their hands, and then ultimately, as you and I know, most of the time use Matthews picks up rather than decreases. Although it does in some very strange, odd rare cases, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Like someone goes, Enough is enough.

SPEAKER_05 58:55

My partner's getting very clear that he's gonna leave if I if I continue this, right? Like I need to get help now. I need to like stop the train now. Some people do that, that's great, you know. Yeah, but for the loved one, they get to go, you know, I was very clear about what I want, and you keep disappearing or you keep doing this, you know, and I can't continue to just be like your maid or your valet or whatever, you know, and queen for you and feed you. Like that's not what I wanted in this marriage. So I have to, we have to separate, you know, and maybe that will be the wake-up call. Like, yes, they were clear with me and I keep not doing it, right? But a boundary is not a boundary if you don't actually hold it.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Yeah.

unknown 59:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 59:44

Right. Because if you say, This is what I want for the marriage, and this is what I want for us and our lives long term, and then they don't do it, and they don't do it, and they don't do it, and you stay, you are telling them without words, oh, I wasn't real about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:01

It doesn't actually matter to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Right.

unknown 1:00:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:05

So it's complicated and it's hard to get, but I I think that those are some things that I would put into their minds.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

Yeah. I like that. And you're so much more diplomatic and compassionate in the way you word things, in the way that you word things compared to me. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but you saying that really hit me in terms of I'm not, I I I'm not going to allow you to abuse yourself because you're really you're abusing the marriage, you're abusing in in proxy me, you're abusing us. Yeah, and and I can't just allow that to happen. It's a deal breaker. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

To me, that does also take a lot of pointing fingers and shaming the user, which is only going to make them, you know, you said meth accelerates, it's only going to fuel throw fuel on a fire to shame them in that way. It's your fault, you're ruined this marriage, you know, all that kind of stuff. Phrasing it that way to me does kind of take the it it looks at the marriage as an entity instead of this is all you and your fault and your problem, too. I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:16

Totally. Because I mean, I think there is like a habit of blaming or one person is at fault, and you know, it's really about like if we're in a romantic relationship, a loving relationship, we both have to care for the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:35

Right? Like, yeah. I think, you know, there are these stories about people who get married that just have this wonderful relationship and they never have to do any work on it, and they just die best friends or whatever, you know, 60 years later. I don't know any of those people. Right. Like I would say everyone I know, and this is a crazy blanket statement, but I'm gonna make it. Everyone I know has to work on their marriage. It doesn't just come beautifully, right? Like they have to work through friction and tension and disagreements and new experiences, right? And you also have to work to grow together, right? Like, because if you don't work on growing together, often you'll grow apart.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Yeah.

unknown 1:02:25

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:25

And so there's so much work in a marriage. It's not just a given thing. And so to not be working on the marriage proactively, but to actually be kind of desecrating it or taking away from it is like, hey, like this is our we have to actually care about this thing that we're doing together and put work into it and make it nice. And if you're not actually going to show up for our marriage, like I might have to remove myself because it's too heartbreaking for me. Yeah. Not that you're a bad person, but like it takes two to have a marriage.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, Charlie, this is we just got started. It's like this is like a tip of the very iceberg. Um I have um a podcast to record after this, unfortunately, and we're gonna have to to narrow to to start the close, start the descent here of this plane. But I want I would like to make this part one.

unknown 1:03:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

And I'd like to come together in the next couple of days if you if you can, and so we could do a part two.

unknown 1:03:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Is that good with you?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:44

Yes, 100% of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Uh I have a ton more scenarios that I've written down here too that I want to. But some things that I want to talk about next time, so for you listening, just to kind of tease you, too, is I I think it's interesting about what you're saying about family dynamics were the same before the addiction came. And they're going to be you, you know, those dynamics are going to carry through. And it's a good time, I think, for a family or loved ones to really start to look at, oh, let's let's start analyzing this relationship. Let's zoom out.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

And maybe find out what we could do better as a family anyway. What does this what does it what is this addiction a sign of for us and for me? Oh, totally. Is that right? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:38

Totally. Like a addiction is a symptom often. Right? Like the the substance use is a symptom of an underlying operational dynamic, right? Which again, I think a lot of parents or loved ones would be like, see, it is it is my fault, or it is like something to do with us, or whatever, right? Like, right. So I'm like, don't go there, don't go there, come back, little sheba. But like, yeah, but like there is a way that the use is solving some kind of issue that the person is having, or some kind of feeling. It's a relationship to pain, it's a relationship to tension, it's a relationship to intimacy, right? So those things just need greater zoom out and reflection and kind of investigation into each individual's family of origin and really like their development of these relationships to themselves to figure out how did we get here? Right. Because it's not, it's not just the last couple of months, it's not just the last year. Right. Like there are things that that were triggered in me or hooked in me that brought us together that are operating now full speed. That we're always there. Yeah. Right. And and truly that happens in almost all relationships. And so it is workable. It is solvable. But sometimes it takes a little bit of effort and reflection.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. So we want to talk about too. So next time. Dynamics of fr next dynamics of friendship. No, like friendships. You know, a friend comes to me. What do I how do I help this? You know, I I had a call yesterday. He was outside of the re of the treatment center, about to pick up his friend. He said, This is his fifth time this year. You know, I'm about to take a stand with him and I'm going to tell him this and this. You know, you know, anyway, so we want to talk about that. We want to talk about siblings, how siblings, that that dynamic as well. Um, more about partners, too, because there's a lot of that here in the kid of sex world. Um, so we want to talk, we want to dive deeper into more scenarios and and more tips. Um, I think I know if you're listening that you have, I know you're getting a ton out of what Charlie is saying because it's intelligent, it's experienced, it's beautifully put, full of compassion. And I just I I love I love your approach. I love how you think, I love how you deliver. Um, and I just think I just think you're going to this, you are going to have such an impact around the world. And I just want to say, are are you accepting clients right now, by the way?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:44

I have a couple openings right now, and I'm also working on my own like codependency course that people can get.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Sign me up. Sign me up. Um, yeah, so we'll put your contact information in the show notes. Please reach out to Charlie if you have liked what you've heard today, uh what you've heard today, and I know you will. We're going to have a part two. So, what I'd like to do is probably have um uh bonus episode. We'll do that, um, especially as we approach our um our collaborative project coming up, the webinar series.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:22

Yes, which I'll be so excited for. And I love like, you know, like getting live questions and oh yeah, diving into the stuff, you know. So it's I think it's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

Yeah, and uh I'm glad you said that because closer to it, we want to do some live episodes. We want to, you know, advertise them. We're gonna do I've never done a live stream podcast yet. I have the ability to do that, but we could do some live stream and get live questions. Um, I think that would be so helpful as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:50

I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:52

Charlie, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

No, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:56

Yeah, I just I I'm so grateful to be on here, and I love the way that you dive into all of this. I told you when I met you, like I I have to compliment you how sincere and and truly humble you are in your approach and your questions and how curious you are too, even though you have so much experience. And so I just want to thank you for letting me be on.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:19

Wow. Well, thank you for being the first person ever to refer to me as humble.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:27

Okay, you know, maybe there are some parts that aren't humble, but that's true too, but I I experience a lot of your humility.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

You see the humble part. Love it. Thank you. All right, guys, I hope you're ready for for part two, and we will see you all next time. Bye.