Tropes - Forced Proximity and Why it Works...Sometimes

Two characters. Zero escape. That’s the secret engine behind some of the most addictive romance books and rom-com movies, and we’re pulling it apart: forced proximity. We talk through what the trope really means, why it shows up across romance, romantasy, and adventure stories, and how it creates the kind of pressure that makes characters drop their defenses fast. We also share a pile of recognizable setups, from contests and quests to workplace romances, academic rivals, bodyguard situations, fake dating, and marriage of convenience.

We get into the craft side too: forced proximity works because it forces change. When routines collapse and the clock is ticking, characters have to interact more intensely than they normally would, which can spark conflict, banter, and genuine vulnerability. We connect it to the social psychology “proximity principle,” then ask the hard question writers have to answer: once the storm ends, the job wraps, or the contract expires, why would these two still choose each other?

Finally, we debate the risks. When does the trope lean too hard on deception? When does a high-stakes ordeal create trauma bonding that looks like romance on the page but feels shaky afterward? We also detour into some fandom news, including a Sarah J Maas interview recap with spoiler-aware context about her process, pressure, and creative control. If you love romance tropes, forced proximity, fake dating, and romance book recommendations, you’ll leave with new ways to spot what’s working and what isn’t. Subscribe, share the episode with a trope-loving friend, and leave a review so more readers and watchers can find us.

Interesting articles

·      What is a trope?

·      Examples of tropes.

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Transcript

Disclaimer And Welcome

Mari 0:00

The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts. All creative works discussed or reviewed are the intellectual property of the creators of said stories and are being used under the Fair Use Doctrine. Hello and welcome to Swords and Soulmates, a podcast where we read, watch, and discuss romantic and romance adjacent stories. I'm one of your hosts, Mari, and with me I have Kelly.

Kelly 0:36

Hey everyone, it's Kelly. We also have Ashley.

Ashley 0:39

Hey guys, it's Ashley. We also have Jonathan.

Jonathan 0:42

What's good, everybody? It's JP, living the dream.

Mari 0:47

Is it a dream or is it a nightmare?

Jonathan 0:50

That depends on the day. The answer is always yes.

Mari 0:52

If it's a nightmare, then it's time to wake up. If he did robbery taught me anything, it's time to wake up.

Jonathan 0:58

What was Chrissy?

Mari 1:00

Wake up. Yes.

Jonathan 1:02

What's that thing I heard this week from Mean Girls? The limit does not exist.

Mari 1:08

Okay.

Jonathan 1:09

I don't know. I have no ref frame of reference for mean girls, but I know that every once in a while I say something from Mean Girls and somebody accuses me of having seen it.

Ashley 1:17

You're so pretty.

Jonathan 1:18

I know, right?

What Tropes Are And Why

Mari 1:20

I saw it once, maybe, maybe twice, but it's been a long time. I don't remember much. But today we're going to be discussing the forced proximity trope. So we're not going to be doing any news. This is kind of one of our trope episodes. But first, we're going to go back to, because it's been a while since we've done one of these, just to find what tropes are. So tropes are literary devices that are used for storytelling, they're patterns, used as shortcuts when describing or discussing books or stories. They're not good, they're not bad, they're just a describer, just like genres are a describer. It's an organizational device, it's a nomenclature, and every genre has their own tropes, even though there's some crossover. Popular tropes would be like enemies to lovers is the one that we've talked about before in a in a deep dive. Um, there's love triangles, there's chosen one, found family, forced proximity, grumpy sunshine. What are some other ones?

Jonathan 2:17

I honestly I thought genre was a guy I went to high school with. He might have been, yeah. Um so I for for us, for people in my category, uh tropes are so tropes are just a style, like a common theme.

Ashley 2:33

Common theme, yeah, that's fair.

Jonathan 2:35

Gotcha. Not tall ropes. Noted.

Ashley 2:39

Hard passed.

Forced Proximity Defined

Mari 2:40

Correct. So the forced proximity trope specifically is what we're gonna be talking about this time. So what is it? It's basically do what now?

Jonathan 2:50

Magnets.

Mari 2:52

Yeah, basically, yeah. So it's a catch-all term for when the main characters are forced to spend time together, whether they want to or not. It could be like through different devices or tools that the author uses to make the forced proximity situation happen. So it could be like fake dating, fake marriage, it could be an environmental thing like stuck in a snowstorm, it could be a common goal, bodyguard protector situation, stranded travelers, that kind of thing. And forced proximity isn't just something that's used in romance stories, it's used in most storytelling because you gotta figure out if your story's gonna have more than one character, you gotta figure out how to get them together. And as anyone who's played Dungeons and Dragons or who has run a Dungeons and Dragons game, Kelly, it's always interesting trying to figure out how to get your party together, your group of characters together, right? Yeah. Right. So like you have all these cool characters. Okay, why are they spending time together? What is gonna force them to do things together? You know, you gotta you gotta get to that point where you are the fellowship or where you are the Avengers or whatever. Like, what is bringing people together? And forced proximity is where you use things to force people to be together.

Jonathan 4:10

Yeah, um, they killed that agent in the Avengers to bring them together, who had all their trading cards.

Ashley 4:17

Spoiler alert.

Jonathan 4:18

If that movie is a year old movie, good. Yeah, we're good. And we spoil stuff all the time here.

Ashley 4:25

Yeah, but you didn't warn them.

Jonathan 4:26

We're the we're we're the chewable milk of podcasts. We spoil stuff.

Ashley 4:31

Um chewable milk. What's you?

Jonathan 4:34

Yeah, okay. That's making sense, Mari. I'm picking up what you're putting down the whole. What was the agent's name? Carl?

Mari 4:41

Colson.

Jonathan 4:42

Colson. Thank you, Kelly.

Mari 4:43

You guys.

Why It Works In Stories

Jonathan 4:44

I'm standing next to Kelly. He gets me.

Mari 4:46

Kelly knows all the trivia.

Jonathan 4:48

Kelly knows.

Mari 4:49

So why is forced proximity so interesting? Why is it used in stories? Generally, because it forces change. And if your characters are the same at the beginning of the story as they were at the end of the story, then you probably haven't told a very good story, right?

Ashley 5:06

People should not an entertaining one.

Mari 5:08

Yeah, your character should change, should evolve, something should happen. So when you have forced proximity, it brings changes to their their routine, their routine, their life, their where they normally are, their place. And oftentimes there's a time limit to force something to happen. So it can feel like a trap or like a puzzle escape room situation sometimes. Um, and it forces the characters to interact more intensely than they would otherwise. So you're making them maybe be vulnerable, or maybe making them face things that they are uncomfortable with, maybe dropping their social defenses, changing their expectations, and all those things push forward conflict and character development.

Jonathan 5:50

And is it easy, a lot of times it's like opposites, like like Star Wars? Like is like Princess Leia versus Han Solo, like they had very different upbringings, but they were locked in this environment. Is that kind of like, are they like from opposing space?

Mari 6:11

When else would they have interacted if it wasn't for that situation? Right?

Jonathan 6:15

That's true.

Mari 6:16

Um, and so why does it work? Basically, it works because of the social psychology term that is the proximity principle. And that basically describes that we are more likely to form relationships. And I'm not talking about just romantic relationships, it can be friends, it can be whatever. We're more likely to form relationships with people that we see and interact with regularly.

Jonathan 6:37

Very simple.

Common Setups And Examples

Mari 6:38

Um, but when it comes to stories, it could go wrong because the reason for forced proximity needs to be believable. You can't just throw a bunch of people together because you want to make the story happen and then move on with the story because people are not gonna go along with it. Your readers, your watchers, your listeners are not gonna go along with it if there's no reason for these characters to be together, right? Yeah. So there's lots of reasons, and there can be more. I've just put a few in here of like forced proximity tools used to in stories. So the first one would be like, and this is not all inclusive, this is just kind of things I was thinking of. Like a they have to do a challenge or a contest. There's a lot of books and things we've read that have that. So like Hunger Games, right? They wouldn't have been thrown together the way they were, all those people if it hadn't been for the the Hunger Games, the challenge.

Ashley 7:36

And it was forced.

Mari 7:37

Right, right. We have The Serpent and the Wings of Night, they had that that challenge, they had to do that contest that forced them to work together at times. Those people wouldn't have come together otherwise. That Chris or Broadbent book. We have The Games Gods Play, Abigail Owens, had that contest aspect to it, and it brought people together. Any other movies or books that have that like game or challenge aspect to it that brings people together?

Jonathan 8:06

Game or challenge. Ooh, uh Fry Oh, it's that movie with uh James Vanderby because that Friday Night Lights. Mm-hmm. Where uh he becomes the quarterback and then she's the head cheerleader, so they are drawn together. That's a football game.

Mari 8:24

Yeah. Yeah. Um another way that people could be brought together would be like to do a quest or to solve like a a question or or a problem. So like in the irresistible urge to fall for your enemy, which was a good butt, they're having to work together where they would otherwise absolutely not spend time together. They're having to work together to try and and and solve a disease for the greater good. And that throws them together to have to make this quest together, and then they get to know each other and spend time together, etc. As a result from it. Same thing with the book we just read. I got abducted by aliens and now I'm trapped in a rom com. They were forced together by trying to that quest of trying to figure out why they're there trying to, you know, get to the bird people.

Jonathan 9:15

Oh, yeah. No, you're right. Like Zomromcom.

Mari 9:19

Mm-hmm.

Kelly 9:20

I mean, the classic forced proximity is Beauty and the Beast.

Mari 9:23

Right. Right. So Beauty and the Beast, I think falls into the basically, and this is debatable, it's always debatable, but like a kidnap situation. So Akatar, Ferry, Farah and Tamlin, same thing as the Beauty and the Beast. I feel like those are the same type of tools for forced proximity, which me makes sense. That that particular Acatar book is a Beauty and the Beasts inspired you know retelling. But yeah, like kidnapping, which a lot of dark romance stories kind of um start that way, which I don't read a ton of those. Not there's anything wrong with them, I just don't read a ton. Although Mr. Wright is a movie that starts off that way. It's kind of like a kidnapping thing and turns into like a weird romance. Um and it's really good.

Kelly 10:11

Yeah, it's also Stockholm Syndrome.

Mari 10:14

Correct. Yeah, is it kidnapping? Is it a forced proximity or is it just Stockholm Syndrome? A little bit of old ever-present question. Um another kind of a quest movie or quest story is one of my favorite like rom-com movies, is Only You with Marissa Tamai and Robert Downey Jr.

Jonathan 10:35

She has that's an interesting yeah, that's an interesting pairing.

Mari 10:41

Have you ever seen have you guys ever seen this one?

Jonathan 10:43

Mm-mm.

Mari 10:44

Oh, okay, so it's one of my favorites. They're basically she had a there was a a prophecy that she's trying to look into that she got as a child that she's trying to look into as an adult. And so they end up going all over Italy to try and figure this out. And I can't tell you a whole lot more without spoiling it. But yeah, you have Mursa Temai, you have Robert Donnie Jr., you have some other really good people in the cast, and you have like different points in Italy, and it's all shot like on site, and it's beautiful. It's a good movie.

Jonathan 11:16

The Michael, yeah, okay. That movie Michael with John Travolta and then the other lady, and then the older dude. I don't know the name, but that was a four that was forced proximity, and Michael was like foursome.

Ashley 11:31

I don't is that how that really went?

Jonathan 11:34

He came back to Earth for the old lady to die and to get those two together. It was a total forced proximity kissing story. Oh, watch a good Christmas movie, interesting. Yeah, if you want to know what John Travolta looks like as like uh an interest, like I I I if imagine like John Travolta, Greece, but like too many slim gyms and sweaty cheese, but he's an angel. It's Angel Michael.

Mari 12:03

I'm not sure I want to watch that. It's it it's it's now that you've described it that way.

Jonathan 12:09

There's some there's some it's probably one of his better, his better roles.

Mari 12:13

Okay.

Jonathan 12:14

Damn.

Mari 12:14

All right, all right.

Jonathan 12:15

I think so. If you're listening and you don't think so, my name is Kelly. Oh, yes, yeah. Talk to us. Let us know.

Mari 12:24

Another like quest or mission-based one that I thought of, which was an old movie I haven't seen in forever, was Green Card. Does anybody remember this movie? Yeah.

Kelly 12:35

I never saw it, but I do remember it.

Mari 12:38

Right, wasn't it Andy McDowell?

Kelly 12:39

The I don't remember, but I think so.

Mari 12:42

Um, so basically they got together and they're having to like study and learn each other to pass the test so he can get a green card. So they're forced to spend all this time together. She's got her reasons for doing it, he's got his reasons for doing it, and they're trying to figure it out. That also, though, kind of falls into another tool that romance authors uh often use for forced proximity, which is like a fake marriage or a forced marriage. Because that kind of was like a fake.

Fake Dating And Marriage Of Convenience

Ashley 13:13

Like a marriage of convenience and such a marriage of convenience.

Mari 13:16

You have like Bride by Allie Hazelwood. Um pretty woman, like a fake relationship situation.

Jonathan 13:25

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mari 13:26

Radiance that we read, what, last year or the year before?

Jonathan 13:30

Mm-hmm.

Mari 13:31

It was kind of a forced marriage, and then they spent time together, became friends, then lovers kind of thing. Fake marriage or fake dating is a fairly common one, especially like the fake dating one I see a lot in like contemporary rom com books. I think it's used very often.

Jonathan 13:49

Didn't uh was there like was there like who's the who's the Ryan Reynolds and Sandra Bullock? Did they proposal? Yeah. That was interesting too, yeah.

Mari 13:59

That was a good one. Um, another tool that's often used for forced proximity is an academic setting. You know, you're all trapped in classes together, so like fourth wing, they're in that school together.

Jonathan 14:14

Absolutely. Luna and uh that big-headed kid. What's his name?

Ashley 14:19

You gotta tell me more.

Jonathan 14:20

Uh, from the oh, he was a perpetual stiffness. What's his name?

Ashley 14:28

Are you talking about Harry Potter?

Jonathan 14:30

Yeah, but what's that big-headed kid's name?

Ashley 14:32

I don't think they were a thing.

Jonathan 14:34

And didn't he marry Luna in like the post bookage?

Mari 14:38

I know the answer to all this, but I refuse to comment on that. So I'm leaving you hanging.

Kelly 14:45

Luna married somebody who was Newt's commander's. Oh.

Jonathan 14:51

Well, in the movie, he was like, hey, I gotta go find her.

Ashley 14:55

You're cute.

Jonathan 14:57

Okay.

Mari 14:57

A for effort. Um, another like academic one is The Entanglement of Rival Wizards by Sarah Roche. It's good when it's it's a magic school, but that's more like university level, and they're having they're two wizards, and they're having to like compete for a oh, what is it? It's not a scholarship, it's a like research funding, like a grant. They're having to compete for a grant, and they end up allotting the grant to both of them, but they have to work together and they hate each other. It's a good story. I really enjoyed that book. Are there any other academic ones?

Ashley 15:34

I mean, I think to a degree the love hypothesis would Woodland there, which was also Ali Hazelwood. Isn't that a Kylo fanfic?

Mari 15:44

Yes.

Ashley 15:45

Yeah, that makes sense. I see it.

Mari 15:48

And that's gonna be a movie soon, I do believe. They're working on it.

Ashley 15:52

I think like a Netflix. So we'll see how that goes.

Mari 15:57

Um also arguably that could be a work relationship because it w they were kind of it was academic, but it was also they were working. Um, so workplace romances can be a forced proximity situation.

Ashley 16:10

It's a big one, yeah.

Mari 16:11

You know, you're forced to be there. So, like the first one I thought of was Assistant to the Villain, which we've read.

Ashley 16:16

Yeah.

Mari 16:17

Right? Like, would those people have been thrown together otherwise? No.

Ashley 16:22

I mean, I don't think I see that one as forced though, like those are choices along the way. I think romance, I think you know, more contemporary romances maybe do the forced proximity thing a little bit, a little bit easier. Have you ever watched the movie or read the book The Hating Game?

Mari 16:38

I have not.

School And Workplace Proximity

Ashley 16:39

So work rivals, right? Like their desks are across from each other and they hate each other with a passion, and that banter is like top tier, top, top tier. And then, like, I think um Emily Henry probably has a couple of books that are forced proximity. I think she does, and maybe I'm conflating the author, but there's a book like called The Bodyguard, which is exactly what it sounds like, except the bodyguard is a female, and the one that she's watching is like, you know, like a rich actor dude, you know, who has a stalker. And so like the forced proximity of the job, right? Yeah, and then they start to develop feelings. That one was really good because they couldn't stand each other.

Mari 17:20

Nice. I do tend to like like the bodyguard type forced proximity, like Princess Diaries. Oh, I can't remember their names, but like the bodyguard to the queen.

Ashley 17:34

Yeah.

Mari 17:35

Those two.

Ashley 17:36

Those two. So good. Agreed.

Mari 17:40

Um another like work situation, work relationship would be Jane Eyre, if we're looking into the classics. She was uh there to be his governess, nanny, for his kids. It's a good story. It's dark and twisted as well. But if you're looking for an interesting classic, would recommend. There's also gonna be a a movie, another new movie coming out of that with oh, I can't remember the actress's name playing Jane Eyre. She was on Euphoria, she's the blonde from Euphoria.

Ashley 18:10

I don't know. I haven't watched Euphoria other than Zendaya.

Mari 18:14

Euphoria is so good.

Ashley 18:16

I hear fantastic things. I'm just not brave enough yet.

Mari 18:20

Yeah, I'm very excited. Arguably, Morning Glory Milking Forum can be kind of a work situation. Yeah. We have read that one together. Uh any other work, workplace romances that we've read?

Ashley 18:36

Uh I was trying to say it earlier and it didn't kick out, but I guess it does count as workplace. Was good spirits, is actually. Yeah. Because they're both working. Um, yeah. That's a good one. And it was like a but it was and it was forced too, right? So like he couldn't separate, like they had to go through this together. He couldn't just quit and leave.

Mari 18:56

Right.

Ashley 18:57

That was a good one. I like her a lot.

Mari 18:58

Yeah, that was a good one. I'm I'm looking forward to the sequel this year. I hope it's good. And then the other like forced proximity thing is just kind of a generic, like, people being thrown together maybe by like societal constraints. So like Pride and Prejudice could be argued to have used forced proximity because they the the Elizabeth Bennett and Darcy, Fitzwill and Darcy keep like running into each other. Um, and they're being they're forced to spend time together, and then they get to understand each other, get to know each other, understand each other, and overcome their issues and start to like each other. Um which without being forced to spend that time together would would not have happened. Heated robbery does a little bit of this, like it in tech technically it's a it's a workplace situation because they're it's their job, but they get thrown together over the years at all these matches. Um it turns into this long, you know, years-long situation. And the other one I was thinking of was the While You Were Sleeping movie. I don't know if anybody remembers that. Sander Bullock and was it Bill Pullman? Do you guys remember that movie?

Jonathan 20:08

Sander Bullock, Bill Pullman.

Mari 20:10

Uh-huh. What's the name of the thing?

Jonathan 20:11

And what was and what what was the premise of the story again?

Mari 20:14

So she's in a coma? She believes she's in love with this guy she's never met. She works at like a subway, I think, ticket station, and she's in love with this guy who always comes by, and one day he falls on the tracks and she like rescues him. And she's like, I'm gonna marry, and he's he's like in a coma, so she somehow gets introduced to his family as his fiance.

Jonathan 20:35

And while you were sleeping.

Mari 20:38

While you were sleeping, yeah. So she ends up like spending time with the brother and realizing that they they do well together.

Jonathan 20:45

Oh, that reminds me of another story, Sabrina.

Kelly 20:48

Yeah, it's is that what Harrison feels like it's kind of similar to Sabrina somewhat.

Jonathan 20:54

What about romancing the stone?

Kelly 20:57

Romancing the stone is definitely more like the adventure force proximity like a quest situation, maybe with Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas.

Deception And Believability Problems

Mari 21:09

Yeah, that's a good one. Also, kind of along those adventure lines is the mummy, right? They're having to spend this time together.

Jonathan 21:16

Yeah. I'm gonna I'm just gonna bite my tongue there. What was that? I'll just go bite my tongue.

Mari 21:25

You're biting your tongue very loudly. You're biting out loud.

Jonathan 21:31

Yes. Um, yeah, yeah. Over over both versions of Overboard. That's fake marriage.

Mari 21:38

Yeah. Or forced proximity, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jonathan 21:44

Sorry.

Mari 21:45

I like when there's forced proximity because it does force people, it forces the characters outside of their little boxes, you know, and so they they're forced to interact in ways that they wouldn't otherwise. And so you to end up getting interesting pairings, I think. Like I said, whether it's a romance story or whether it's an adventure story or whatever, you get interesting interactions between the characters. Um because you're bringing disparate people together.

Kelly 22:15

Yeah. I mean the problem I have with some of the forced proximity stuff is that a lot of it's based on deception. So the relationship is based on deception to a degree. Yeah. And that's kind of crappy basis for relationship is that you start off your relationship based on deception.

Mari 22:36

Yeah, it can be like either deception or like that kind of forced time constraint thing. Because then the author has the author or the storyteller whoever has to make you believe that somehow this works outside of that forced proximity. Yeah, that it continues to work when the when this forced proximity situation is removed.

Ashley 22:57

I mean arguably you know some of that too is like I think probably both Anthony and Daphne's stories for you know the the Bridgerton stuff those are pretty forced proximities. I mean they put themselves in an interesting situation so that they were constantly in those circles and at that time right society was the same circles the ton. Yeah the ton the ton although I think Anthony's was probably more forced proximity than than Daphne's that was a good I I think that was probably the best season was Anthony's the tension between him and Kate was just top tier.

Jonathan 23:38

Yeah any other storylines we can think of that are forced proximity or any other aspects of forced proximity aspects of forced proximity so they don't have to they should be opposites they don't have to like each other and the forced proximity is what awakens their love or their attraction I mean it doesn't have to be opposites it can just it's people who wouldn't necessarily wouldn't necessarily interact otherwise so like Carl and donut dear god damn it don't that is purely forced proximity yeah it doesn't have to be both sided either like one can be in love with the other and the other is just like did we say Wolfgone Wild she's in this quest to save and it is kind of a working relationship right doesn't it's also very like a quest situation where like they're looking for the cure to his situation and they're having to spend the time together to do that.

Mari 24:46

I love that story. We love Juliet Cross another kind of a quest type force proximity story would be a 10th kingdom which I know I talk about a lot. Kelly Kelly's seen it I don't know if you guys saw but it's that miniseries God when when when did it come out Kelly?

Ashley 25:06

Oh gosh early 10th yeah yeah I don't think Jonathan I think we tried and it wasn't Jonathan's favorite.

Jonathan 25:13

What was it?

Ashley 25:14

The 10th kingdom probably not it's for some reason that didn't sound doesn't sound like one I would like I was trying to be nice I don't think you liked it at all.

Mari 25:25

Yeah it's fine we all have our our things we we like and dislike yeah but for the most part I think forced proximity works well to bring people together in interesting situations so it makes for interesting stories.

Trauma Bonding And Hunger Games

Kelly 25:39

I mean it can I just think that it's also it can be easily overused and it's sometimes it feels like it's a crutch to the storyline a reason for the characters to be together and then you just add more reasons for it to continue yeah and and really you know part of it is not just the you know ethical issues about somebody being potentially held against their will and you end up with Stockholm Syndrome but also like you know they go through a traumatic experience you know high tension life and death experiences etc so now you know the whole trauma bonding aspect of it you know does that is it is it a relationship that's actually built on love or is it the shared trauma bonding?

Mari 26:26

Right is it trauma bonding no I mean that's a good point. And it obviously it can be overused a lot like in I Got Abducted by Aliens they even made fun of it. They were like the whole one bed trope.

Jonathan 26:37

You guys remember that yes in the in the Coles de Sachs houses.

Mari 26:41

Yes yeah yeah and like it often in more fantasy type stories you have like the one horse thing they have to travel on one horse. Like yeah some of these are can be overused but then again if it's a thing you like then you're gonna gravitate towards it you know if that if that's your jam. So I like when my stories get a little meta and they make fun of the the expected tropes. So I think it's a literary device that's that's fine, I guess, but I don't know it's it feels like it's definitely overused in romancy Yeah I mean it can be in romancy or or like romance in general. But yeah I would say romancy does tend to have a lot of like because there's a lot of fairy tale retellings kind of woven into romancy you do get a lot of like the beauty and the beast kidnapping thing.

Kelly 27:35

Right I mean and and essentially you want the readers to you know have the characters develop their you know personalities with each other develop their feelings for each other and so the forced proximity is one way to expedite that along as far as you know pacing of the story.

Mari 27:54

Yeah anything else we want to bring up about this?

Jonathan 28:03

About forced proximity? Yes do they ever get away? Well that's the question yeah like what happens when they get away like if if the connection is real then you have like you could have a hap H E A right happily ever after but maybe it's just a happy for now right like what's uh I don't remember who said this but like all love stories are tragedies it just depends on where you stop telling the story um to be grim about it so we we we talked about like the Hunger Games right and so that's like a they when that when the when the when when that ended right you were you like there was some trauma built off those games right all the trauma and if they was there was it true love and was trauma built from that true love like I I struggle to think that I struggle to think that Ida was her true love.

Mari 29:06

Like was it true love or was it trauma bonding?

Jonathan 29:08

Correct.

Mari 29:09

I don't know honestly I think that that I would have been fine with that story if it wasn't like a romance love story at the end. I think they just all needed therapy at the end I think they had PTSD and just needed to like figure out how to how to move move on and and live their life after all that I always had a hard time s feeling like the the romance of that being real because I felt like there was too much trauma. Like they they needed to get their stuff together. And you know if I remember right it's been a long time since I read these books but if I remember right there was a big time jump where it showed them in like the epilogue together right yeah quite some time passed.

Ashley 29:49

I mean maybe they have had dealt with their trauma it's just since we weren't really privy to that I don't know you know I mean the same could be said about multiple points in hum in actual human history right like after world war two were any of those people actual love matches or were you taking the comfort of the human that you felt closest to at that point. Right. Right? So I mean for PETA and Katniss I don't think we're talking about fated mates but I think the trauma that they experienced together made them realize that they were happier together than apart.

Kelly 30:32

Right.

Ashley 30:33

It was definitely trauma bonding for sure and for a time and space where there really weren't any fucking therapists. Right. Right they're just doing the best that they can with what they had I mean she held to her her not principles but like you know for a very long time she didn't want to have children. She didn't feel safe she was dealing with her trauma until you know and it I think she says something to the effect of he talked her into it. But I don't think Katniss does anything she doesn't ultimately want to do in the same breath. Yeah. So I mean I think there is something for having gone through an experience together and bonding through it whether it be a positive or a negative experience. And I think if you can get through something like what they did and come out on the other side then you know they're probably gonna be able to get through almost anything so while PETA might not have been perfect he wasn't the alpha but she she talks about that too you know the the calm he he c he brings the calm to her I forget the word that she uses but it was like wildness or chaos.

Mari 31:44

Yeah.

Ashley 31:45

That's she's talking about balance without you know having the education to or the emotional intelligence to articulate it.

Mari 31:52

Yeah. I mean I think of the choices she was presented with he was the best of those choices for her. Um yeah but I yeah yeah I think it it's definitely debatable because there was absolutely lots of trauma.

Jonathan 32:07

Um I mean I would say that like a romance can't come out of the trauma but it's a lot of work that's gotta be done too oh forced proximity a cruel prince oh yeah it's another cruel prince mm-hmm such a good series I need to reread that one right anything else we want to talk about forced proximity before we wrap it up I feel good about this pretty short it's 35 minutes oh we need more husband so what do you want me to talk about we need more forced proximity forced proximity forced proximity forced proximity forced proximity hmm hmm I don't know it's um under pressure dang use your thinker okay yeah let me use my think sickles okay forced proximity what are what's our IP at theme parks oh boom got it ready this is romanticy okay here we go donkey and the dragon I don't think that's forced park uh they're there yeah she doesn't she like hold him hostage does she does she kidnap him yes and then there's some donkey faced dragons that come out of it forced proximity little baby dragons donkey dragons you got a tower roll dog a tower okay forced proximity what else we got what else what other worlds do we have at these at these them theme parks what's at the cars boom forced proximity humanoid cars aka doc hollywood forced proximity sorry i i think you're just spitting things out now but that's true i mean it was he was a uh Dr. Ben Stone was uh sentenced to serve in that town and he uh that's when he fell in love with his coworker the ambulance driver on his way to his big city job and in cars lightning McQueen insert chow yeah developed a relationship with his with the attorney as well as the whole town he loved that town so it was done you know what I'm saying I can go on I could tie stuff together if you want um Transformers I mean it's fine like if we don't have anything more to say we don't have to pad an episode yeah okay cool so but like if anyone wants to add anything then obviously I like Ashley and I force proximity remember that time I slashed all your tires and you had to spend the night that's not for the podcast I never did that I'm just joking.

Sarah J Maas Interview News

Ashley 34:47

Did you kidnap her shall you say I will admit twice I will admit that I think he bamboozled me in the beginning but he didn't kidnap the old bait and switch is what I did. Kelly did I bamboozle you no oh that book I was telling you about the bodyguard that's Catherine center okay I really enjoyed it it was funny. Forced proximity Joker and no that lady nope the health servant choice yeah Harley Quinn that that was choice that was forced proximity I don't I don't think he abused her into that's abuse is not a well was it I don't know Kelly you know the comic books better than I do isn't that like a workplace thing didn't she work at the asylum where he was at yeah so I is that a workplace situation maybe I think that makes a little bit more sense I don't know if it's as work as as forced as forced proximity is is broke back mountain forced proxy I mean they weren't forced they were it was willing proximity that's a choice I just can't quit you forced proximity in our life is why it so much eas was so much easier to meet people and make friends when we were kids.

Mari 36:02

We were all thrown together in school and we had to spend time together right and as adults we're all in our own little hidey holes we go our separate ways and it's harder to meet new people that's we gotta swipe right and left right and left it's a it's a it's a dating app thing popular with the kids six seven you know stuff like that.

Ashley 36:32

Okay Mari did you read Divine Rivals Divine Rivals is that what it's called now I'm questioning my own sanity sorry who did it and what's a premise Rebecca Ross what is that oh I did not read it but I know the one you're talking about yeah with like the type like the letters or the typewriters the typewriters I did not read that one you read that one right the that and the I did I wasn't like super into it but I I mean I don't I'm trying to struggle and see if it's force proximity because I think it's the magic that brings them together and like and so they get wrapped up in that you know what I mean without fully knowing who the other is so it's not exactly workplace or kidnapping but it's like the magic forces them into that situation. And I don't think I've figured out exactly why I should go back and read it at some point. But I'm hoping the sequel's better. I haven't gotten to it yet I was just wondering if you thought maybe that would fall into it.

Mari 37:32

I haven't read it I've heard great things about it but I just I haven't read it yet but that reminds me I was gonna think in earlier about Ice Planet Barbarian series. Oh yeah that's forced yeah and you get that in a lot of like science science fiction romance where you have like the characters are thrown together for survival basically you know alien human etc and they're forced to spend time together to survive to get from point A to B to figure out a quest to contact somebody whatever the situation is and then feelings develop along the way right right which I still have to finish that series but I will get to it another 50 book series I know like that one and I've in Black Dagger Brotherhood like I'm on I'm on book 17 I believe of 23 so I'm getting there um all right anything else before I wrap it up no are we not gonna say anything about Sarah tell me more she got she announced her book we can do it as a little segment in this one and we can talk about it next time too so it's a little behind the scenes on this today's the 5th of March which means yesterday on the 4th Sarah J Maas was on the Call Her Daddy podcast and really interesting listen talked a lot about the books the the headspace she was in for these books some of the reasoning why she made some of the choices with some of the characters which was really good um and dropped the news that we're getting three Kelly and I had had a discussion about this earlier three part sequel it's not a trilogy it's three books whatever we want to call it the next installment in the Avatar story it's gonna be three parts the first one is going to be released October 27th correct the second one is going to be released January 12th yes right and the third one is still being written and I went in and put in for those days off from work.

Jonathan 39:56

Did you oh you were you you did pull you did take off from work okay okay nice yeah I got some friends who are like right there too like okay I gotta get off of this I gotta I'm like I plan on reading bang and sick and if there's any bookstores I can drive to that are doing drive to that are doing any sort of like a midnight release party I'm there.

Ashley 40:13

Right. I think that would be really fun I told Jonathan I need him to burn an audible credit for me for these two because it's gonna be so expensive.

Mari 40:23

So did Jonathan did you listen to the podcast? I did not okay I was gonna say because it if anyone who's not like read all the books if you care about spoilers I wouldn't listen to the podcast the the Call Her Daddy call her daddy podcast because she JoJMS talks about all the stories.

Ashley 40:40

Yeah they get into the weeds and so like I've not read all the books but I knew a lot of the tea like the gists of the later ones. But man we got some good spoilers too yeah like some like some things that a lot of people latched on you know throughout the because I was like reading the chat as it was happening. And so I'm I'm interested I have I've been tied up today I haven't had a chance to really like get into the socials but I'm curious like what the what the social influencers are are digging into as you know far as some of the things that she talked about last night.

Mari 41:12

Yeah. Try and say this without a lot of spoilers but there's something that happens later in the books that she gets a lot of flack for writing it's a it's a trope that a lot of people don't like in their book, especially in romance. And I think that she did a really good job of talking about her medical trauma and things that happened to her you know while she was coming up with this and that inspired her to do that and the headspace she was in to write what happened to that character. And I thought it was really interesting because most women I know have some story, some version of not great medical situation that happened to them. You know, varying degrees of that but like it's it's a common enough thing that I think a lot of people would empathi empathize with that and and have something where like they can relate to it. Yeah. Yeah I thought it was a really interesting descriptor of a thing that she often gets flack for um what else did she talk about?

Ashley 42:19

I'm trying to see what else I can talk about without doing any major uh spoilers um can we talk about something that she announced but I don't think that everybody caught it or at least like in the interview they didn't like dig into it. Breaxis is a girl yeah the whole reading the whole chat blew up at that absolutely lost their fucking minds I thought that that was just such a neat little little little tidbit there.

Mari 42:53

Yeah yeah and she said it so nonchalantly like that it was common knowledge and it is not right I thought it was interesting she talked about like some of the trauma stress whatever that she went through writing some of the more you know the the Avatar books that are out now and how she would have like panic attacks.

Ashley 43:13

Yep.

Mari 43:14

And I'm like oh that reminds me of Rebecca Yarrow's not that long ago that was talking about the same situation where you have these very popular authors write stories that are very popular and people latch onto and then there are these these authors get under extreme pressure from the readers the fans the editors the publishers to like keep producing and producing and producing and remember that like as much as we want to see what comes next as much as we want more stories from these artists that we like they don't owe us anything yeah you know especially when they're at that level of like literally could never write another book and and still be financially fine for the rest of their life.

Ashley 44:00

I want to know about the four manuscripts she's just got sitting on her computer. Tell me more, Sarah.

Mari 44:06

What stories are those? Where do they go? Are they middles? Is this like a a series? Does it inner inner lope with something else? Right. So I mean, maybe when she finishes Avatar, we might get some of that.

Ashley 44:21

I thought the other thing that was interesting that she talked about is that she, you know, got back her movie rights and that she's really that now, and how sh what kind of control she wants to be able to do that, where she would want to be able to have say on like the music, the actors, the the the the plot points, like all the I don't I don't want to say I don't want to compare apples to oranges for any like I and I don't mean this in any negative way, but this whole situation yesterday with her in this podcast was very Taylor Swift coded, you know, announcing We love mother and we love mother and Sarah J. Mass's mother for books too. You know, we have multiple mothers. We have we have many mothers that have set the standard, many moms, many, many, many, many moms. But you know, the whole releasing two books basically at the same time, announcing on a on a you know podcast that is very well known and very, very popular, getting the rights to to her things back, right? We didn't I didn't even know that that was a concern of hers. You know what I mean? And it explains the extensive delays and you know the indefinite suspension of um Akatar being, you know, made into a series or whatever. Um, I didn't know that she was dealing with that at all. And so I think that explains a lot and it gives her fans, you know, maybe not closure, because she's not saying that it's dead, but I think it gives us, you know, an update so that we know, oh, like they're not just sitting on this and twiddling their thumbs.

Mari 45:57

Yeah. I think she wants to make it right after Game of Thrones. I would be surprised if very many um producers, whoever pays whoever, however they invest money for these TV shows or movies are are willing to do as much for a series that's not complete or that's like very, very likely to be complete. And so I wonder like if if part of her being you know coming together with finish or doing more Avatar. I don't know if it's finishing, I don't know how many there's gonna be total or whatever, but like moving that story forward and maybe finishing the story is part of like what she wants to be able to have it all be done before there is a TV show or movie.

Ashley 46:39

Sure, you know, or you know, closer, which I think she's I thought I for some reason I think they said that book eight was gonna be the last. I I think but like but like she's also said that it's not impossible that we'll never see, you know, the throne of glass folks again either. So I don't think any of her stories are ever fully complete.

Mari 46:57

Yeah.

Ashley 46:58

But anyway, yay for two books.

Mari 47:00

Yes.

Ashley 47:02

I was telling Jonathan earlier that it's just nice to have something to look forward to. Not that we're not excited about other books, but like this is, you know, this is hype level. This is this is this is fangirling level. Yeah. Yeah.

Mari 47:15

And I've got five years is a long time. Right. Like, you know, Jonathan, you're reading the second one. I've got a friend who I've convinced to move beyond the first one and is reading the second one now. And it's like it'll be interesting to be able to like see if they continue with it and be able to go on and maybe read all these books for the first time together, these new ones that come out.

Ashley 47:35

Yeah.

Mari 47:35

Because it's always nice to have somebody to talk to when you're reading something like, oh my God, did you see did you see that? You know? Yeah, it's gonna happen there. What did they mean with that? What did Lorcan do? What did Lorcan do?

Ashley 47:50

It's fucking wild. I in hindsight, like I don't think I think I would have been absolutely destroyed if Throne of Glass had not been finished. Yeah. Like, and I had to wait for that. You know what I mean? So I I purposely stopped at book three for Avatar. Um it it just kind of wrapped up a little bit nice enough to where I wasn't like a crackhead looking for my next fix.

Mari 48:14

Right.

Ashley 48:15

So I'm glad I've waited. I'll probably go back and read and you know, prepare for what's coming.

Mari 48:20

Yeah, I was just thinking that I will probably be rereading everything before. Need that refresher. Adding that to my TBR schedule to have that done.

Ashley 48:29

Studying for the test, October 27th.

Mari 48:32

Yes. Nice little pre-Halloween situation to look forward to.

Ashley 48:37

Pre-BookCon.

Mari 48:38

That's right. When is RomanityCon?

Ashley 48:41

Just after that, that weekend.

Mari 48:42

Ooh. Yes.

Ashley 48:45

That was my first thought. I was like, fuck. I hope this doesn't interfere with BookCon. But then I remembered that books are on Tuesdays.

Mari 48:53

Yeah.

Ashley 48:54

Yeah, it's that weekend. So there'll be there'll be some fun hype for the book con, I think. You know, things to talk about, maybe new maybe merch, you know, from other vendors and stuff.

Mari 49:05

Yeah. Maybe some interesting discussions at like the panels and whatnot. Yeah, okay. So RomaneseCon is the weekend before. Oh, before. So RomaneseCon is the 22nd.

Jonathan 49:19

Oh.

Mari 49:20

Thursday. Wait, no, Friday, I'm sorry. Friday the 23rd. So RomancyCon is happening first. And then that Tuesday, I believe, yeah, Tuesday 27th, right after RomaniceCon.

Ashley 49:31

Beautiful. That's better for me. That's better for me, but I think it's I I still think we're gonna get a lot of like good book con like merch and and things to look at and see and talk about.

Mari 49:44

Yeah. Well, I mean, oh plus also remember there are people who are getting advanced reader copies. So the chosen people talking about things. Motherfucker. I'm fine with that. Like I am the worst. I've gotten a few advanced reader copies, and I'm so sorry authors have done that. Like, I'm I'm the worst about reading them on time.

Ashley 50:08

Sure.

Mari 50:09

Like the last one I got, Sebastian Nothwell, I love you. And I'm I'm working on it. I I still have to read that one. I've got one from him. I know, I know I'm the worst. And I'm like, but I told him ahead of time, and I tell any of them ahead of time. I'm like, I can't promise you I'm gonna read it before the release date. And if that's something you need, you need to give it to somebody else. I can promise you I'll give you a review on like Fable and Goodreads and Tome, you know, and Story Graph. Like that much I can give you. All right, so any other Sarah J. Moss interview stuff.

Ashley 50:46

No, we'll save that one for the next one. Stop torturing the voice.

Kelly 50:52

I don't care.

Ashley 50:54

No, I think it was good. I think it was insightful. You know, I think she dived into a lot of like personal things, which I didn't necessarily expect, right? But appreciate appreciate, right? Because it gives us it gives us some insight. I didn't know about her obsession with like Legolas, and I think it explains a lot, especially in Rowan.

Mari 51:13

And like Sailor Moon, like that she has a little bit of a deep side, like I I enjoyed it, and it was long, right?

Ashley 51:22

So it was like two hours. You're getting a lot, a lot of bang for your time. Um podcasts aren't necessarily my thing, so I I I enjoyed it. I it's definitely worth a listen and or a watch. Even as not a fan, like it was just it was a good interview. Like she, I just I really enjoyed listen listening to her tell her stories, although she could tone it down on the likes a lot. Like a lot, like a lot, like a lot, like a lot. But there was a lot of likes.

Mari 51:53

Like many authors, even though she's famous and everything. I think a lot of authors they don't do a lot of interviews, they don't do a lot of like public especially her, I think, right? So it's one thing to write something out, it's another thing to have to come up with stuff, you know, on the fly.

Ashley 52:09

Yeah, she came off to me like very much a girl's girl, you know what I mean? Like she was probably a real fun time in like middle school, and she would have been in high school if she was in a better situation. I enjoyed it though.

Mari 52:21

Yeah, I did too. So I would I would recommend anyone to search it out and listen to it if if you're okay with spoilers or if you've already read those for sure.

Ashley 52:30

Agreed.

Mari 52:30

Um, also, the one thing I've been telling everybody that I've been recommending it to is like if if medical trauma is a thing for you, just make sure you're in the right space to listen to some of the FYI.

Ashley 52:40

Agreed.

Wrap Up And Where To Find Us

Mari 52:41

Um Okay, I'm gonna wrap it up unless we have anything else. I'm good. Okay. So thanks for listening to Of Swords and Soulmates. Before we go, make sure to check out the show notes, rate, review, and subscribe to us on your podcast app of choice. It helps others to find us. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Of Swords and Soulmates. Check us out on our website, of swordsandsoulmates.com. If you'd like to offer a suggestion for a future episode, book, or discussion topic, feel free to reach out to us on the DMs of any of those options. If you want to read along with us as we prep for a new episode and get chapter-by-chapter interaction, join our Fable app Book Club by searching for the Of Swords and Soulmates book club on that app. And last but not least, we hope you'll join us in two weeks for our next episode when we will be reading Crown of War and Shadow by J.R. Ward, which, by the way, I just saw a little thing on it, has the Force Marks 70 trope. So there you go. All right, bye guys. Bye guys.