Warhammer Designer & Middle Earth Editor Graham Davey | In Conversation with Jordan Sorcery

Graham Davey, former Games Workshop games designer and editor of the Lord of the Rings Battle Games in Middle Earth part-work magazine joins Jordan Sorcery to talk about his career and work.

Graham Davey in conversation with Jordan Sorcery.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello. Warhammer and Games Workshop has evolved and changed a great deal over the years, and a lot of that change can be witnessed in the pages of its books and magazines. My guest today is Graham Davy, a former editor at Games Workshop who worked on White Dwarf magazine. He worked on the part work for the Lord of the Rings, Battle Games in Middle Earth, and he had a hand in the creation of many other 40k and Warhammer Fantasy books. We talked about the process behind creating those magazines and periodicals, and some of the ambition that went into the creation of Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th edition. I'm Jordan, this is Jordan Sorcery, and today I'm in conversation with former Games Workshop editor Graham Davy. We're gonna get into uh your career at Games Workshop and sort of what the work that you did there and how things evolved and changed over time. But I like to start by just exploring a bit about your origins as a gamer. So how did you first get into war gaming?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Right, well, that's a long time ago. Um I think probably a few little different strands as I recall. So certainly um all those early adventure game books like uh Warlock of Firetop Mountain and City of Thieves and stuff like that. Uh that was definitely a big uh a big starting point. Um and then um one of my uncles uh was quite a big war gamer, big painter, uh, and he was he was a member of uh Celweg Southeast London Warlords. Um and I remember being him taking me to one of their big big conventions when I was probably I don't know, maybe only like seven or eight or something.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Um and he put me it was a big historical battle, and he put me in charge of a single unit of armored knights, which kind of slowly moved across the table and eventually got to have a fight. Uh, and this was I think back when when it was just using tables to work out the result of a combat, no dice, or anything like that. So kind of real old school historical.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Um uh but yeah, that was that was a big kind of starting influence um from him um and encouragement to kind of stop painting. And there was a little hobby shop uh in the town where I lived um with like a single stand of Citadel mm Citadel mutt miniatures. So I started getting the occasional occasional model and case the occasional set for birthdays and things like that, right? And then later on, I think secondary school we started doing uh DD at lunch times and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So sure, yeah. That's interesting. I mean you mentioned the the like the fighting fantasy the game books because DD for a lot of folks it seems the other way around, like a lot of people get into the DD first. But were you picking up the Fighting Fantasy books, playing through those before then like more traditional role playing?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah, yeah, much much earlier, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Uh I think there were there weren't many people around who who were into the same things at at that point, so um it was a while before I knew anyone, well a A before I really had any awareness of Dungeon Dragons, I think. I think the adventure game books came first. Um certainly there weren't a lot of people doing it, so in order to actually um have a group and play a game, that that was that was a little way off. That happened later.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Sure, yeah. So when did it then become something that you wanted to pursue professionally?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Um it was kind of an accident to be perfectly honest. Um I kind of left university and then did a course in uh advertising and was kind of living in North London in a grotty place, trying to get into advertising and really not enjoying it at all, um, and got really fed up and just randomly spotted a an advert for staff at the Cambridge Games Workshop store, which was very roughly near near where I where my parents lived, where I grew up. Um uh so I applied for that. I just I just ditched the whole advertising idea entirely and applied for that. Just wanted to do something fun for a bit. Um uh yeah, yeah, I went up, pretended I knew how to play Warhammer. Um I really didn't at all at that point. Um it had the old um there was an old box set um which had lots of little card card figures in, but I'd never had anywhere near enough models to actually play a game or an opponent. Um uh so yeah, I just I just blagged it and was kind of um um loud and and excited and that that seems to swing it.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Um the like what was the the sort of culture and feel of the stores when you were when you joined? What around when was it? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, the I think the latest set was it was the Warhammer set with the uh Lizard Man versus the Britonians.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Right, okay, so around fifth edition, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

And every store had had been given this monolithic kind of resin ziggurat thing to put in the middle of the table. Um, I think a lot of people might remember that from that time. Um, so that was going on. There was uh a new edition of Space Hulk. We did a lot of playing of Space Hulk. Um 40k set was just some quite old-looking orcs versus space marines. Um uh so yeah, you just kind of very lots of intro gaming and um and we just just off after work, practically every day after work, people we we just shut the shop and shop and people were playing, we were playing games, and it was just we didn't do anything else but gaming, so it was yeah, that's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Was it quite relaxed in the stores? Or like I imagine thinking to my own experience being a kid annoying the members of staff around that time. I I imagine there was a level of like like uh having to deal with a lot of like kids coming in and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Um, I mean, obviously that yeah, there was a lot of kids. Um it was the Cambridge store at that point was kind of really hidden, it wasn't on the main street, so you had to know where it was. Um so it was always practically empty half of the day. Um and yeah, then you know, school school's empty, and then you always got a rush at the end of the day. Um, but that was just kind of part of part of the the routine. Yeah um and uh yeah, and there was there was a lot of there there was certain regulars that regular customers that we knew that were old enough to kind of stay after hours and and play games with us. Um it was very it was very competitive atmosphere in terms of the gaming. Um uh really yes, really very, very, very no, no one was worried about particularly. I mean, I think most stuff was painted, but um I I remember, I mean, there was that one very extreme. I remember someone not only hadn't painted their stuff but hadn't assembled it. So they so that I remember putting, I think it was like orc catapults or something, and they just put down two piles of piles of lead onto the back of the table. So those are my catapults.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Would this have been around the time like because I was staff able to get things on like by weight and things like that back then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did did that contribute to like building a collection? Uh absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

That was that was started my love of chaos, chaos space marines. Um that that was 40k was the big uh was the big focus, uh certainly in our store, and and at that point it felt like the the kind of the new exciting thing where new stuff was still happening.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Right. So then when did that when did you transition from the store into the sort of head office space?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Um I think it was about maybe about nine months I was there, uh, and there was an advert for jobs on White Dwarf in the studio. Um uh and a couple of us from Cambridge applied, and we both ended up moving. I didn't I didn't get picked. They basically they were after lots of jobs in the studio. Um so a few people went into White Dwarf, a few people became assistant game developers, um, and I got put on to the editorial team under Lindsay Pris Lindsey Priestley, right? Rick's wife, um, because she ran ran that department at that point. Um I think it was a bit of that. Also, I I'd written as part of my application for that job, I'd written this little kind of piece of colour text, fluff text, um, but necromundari, something necromundari, I think. Um and they had an idea at that point that they wanted to put colour text on the back of on the back of boxes of sets. Um so somebody thought, oh, this guy could do that job for us. Um and they slotted me in. So I I worked on that that happened very occasionally, in fact. Um I don't think I did many at all. I don't I think the idea went away quite quickly. Um but there was one brief period where there were little little extracts of color text on the back of new sets. Um but mainly I was just working on on the editorial team. So essentially we were kind of proofreading and editing and laying out the the black and white pages of the codexes in the army books.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Um and a whole other department did the 16-page colour section with all the photos.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Right. Right. So what do you remember any of those like early books that you were working on there then?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Um I struggle, I could maybe guess, I think it was it was probably Eldar codexes happening.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Um it's probably an unfair question, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's too too far, too far back and drag that out of my memory.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

It's really interesting though, I find, because obviously for the people who are receiving these products and these books, like they're quite monumental moments of it's a new game, it's a new edition, it's a new codex. But I imagine at the other end of the process, it you'll you've got a couple of days to work on that, and you're trying to get through it and get it done, and then move on to the next thing and the next thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

So is it it it must feel quite different to to like in the production process versus well, I mean, um probably more than I mean, I would guess there was probably a book coming out every month, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

So which relates to us having about a month to work on something. Um so you know, it was a fair, fairly long process to you know um edit and proofread everything quite thoroughly. Um became very good at grammar. Um uh and then all the kind of the the type set. Well, we were using um Quark Express to do all the layout. Um so learning all about that and the typography and the um different rules for that. Um so so yeah, it was we were we were on each book for a for a little while. Right. Um but that said I still can't remember which runs from that point.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Was there a lot of like you know, like I I mean I imagine from a house style and a sort of production perspective, there must have been a lot of I don't know if they were written or unwritten rules about how a games workshop book people should read, should feel? Like, was there a lot of stuff in that kind of space?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Uh well our job was um really not to really just to kind of uh remove all the mistakes. Um so that that was really the purview of the the game's development team who were writing writing stuff. So um I remember one of my little snippets for the back of the box, one of my first ones was it was an orc one. Um and I'd done the whole thing in the kind of orky speak with kind of all missing letters and apostrophes and stuff. And I remember Andy Chambers uh giving me some feedback and saying you can be far more subtle about this. Um uh because you get to a point where it's really hard to understand what the sentence actually is, uh, and you can just kind of give the kind of hint of that that that idea with just a few little things rather than changing every letter. Um so so yeah, that games dev was set apart. They were they were literally up up on the on a mezzanine overlooking the uh overlooking the rest of us down on the ground ground floor. Um so yeah, this was just um when the studio was still in cart on Carter Boulevard in Nottingham before they moved to the current big HQ.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Um I was there for about a year before we moved.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Right, okay, yeah. Yeah, I mean, what was the feel of that like as an office space and the sort of many people working there? Was it quite a sort of friendly atmosphere, quite creative space?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, lots of uh people were playing games a lot. Um I remember we while I was there, uh they were working and developing Gorkamorka.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Um so everyone was kind of scratch building their own little wagons and and vehicles in order to play test and join in. Um so yeah, it was very much kind of felt like every everyone was gaming and and enjoying it all.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah. Did you am I right that you did some work with White Dwarf then? Did you move into White Dwarf? Did you contribute some White Dwarf?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Yeah, it was shortly after we moved to the big HQ, um Paul Sawyer took over as editor. Uh I think that coincided with me getting moved across.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Um so yeah, I started started working there instead. Um doing I remember doing a little painting guide for for for Digger Knob, which was the Gorka Morka supplement. Um well, I think that was the first thing I wrote. Um and yeah, and then I again I spent a lot of time as a what as a dwarfer.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Sure. I mean what was that like as a sort of day-to-day job? I mean, because that again I imagine you're on quite a like scheduled process, right? Because if you have to do a an issue every month. So was there quite a like a tick a ticking clock? Did it feel quite pressured at times?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Extremely.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Um yeah, yeah, well obviously with a a monthly uh monthly schedule, you you kind of always up against it. Uh so yeah, it was a much um much tighter turnaround. Um obviously uh it was a it was a very different sort of magazine back then, and we we were obviously we're doing articles to promote the new stuff, but there was also as white dwarfers, we were just writing articles about whatever hobby we were doing at the time. Um so it was a much looser-less kind of structured uh magazine. So I, you know, I would do do a thing about the latest uh Chaos Black Legion, Chaos Space Marines I was doing, or I converted my bloodthirster and did an article about that just without really being asked, it was just you that's what you did as a white dwarfer.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

Right. Yeah, because would stuff like that you would you have to like pitch that? So would you have to go to Paul Sawyer and say, like, I've I've done this, do you are you interested in it? Or was it was it sort of organically coming up in conversation?

SPEAKER_01 18:35

And I think certainly for the more experienced people, I felt like I can't remember how how official that certainly wasn't any sort of official pitching process, anything like that. Um I think you know uh A.D. Wood would do a big new Orky table, and obviously everyone it was went without saying that he'd do a number of articles about it. It was just kind of expected almost, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

And then once once we had the articles, they just get slotted in and fit to wherever.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Sure, yeah. I've always wondered as well about the sort of relationship between so when White Dwarf is doing, you know, if you're including some law, you're building some background, that kind of stuff, like how closely monitored is that from the development team? Was there a lot of communication about okay, we want to include this, or did you just sort of make sure that you were drawing within the lines, for example?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Um depend what it was. Uh so I mean, I would quite often I would write up the batter reports, uh, and I kind of tended to kind of craft it into a bit of a story. Um and that wouldn't have any sort of overview. Right. Um whereas I don't know, later later on we were doing the um uh what was it called, the index Astartes articles.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Which were you know full on almost setting the background. Um and I wrote a couple, I wrote the Black Legion one and uh the Alpha Legion one, and it was uh that that we were essentially setting the background for the first time for those specific legions. Um so that had a lot of overview from Andy Chambers, right? Um uh so yeah, it kind of varied depending on on what the thing was.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Um, and then obviously kind of the more commercial side of stuff would have uh overview from management types, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, yeah, because I I mean obviously is the white dwarf as a at times a sort of move between being being more sort of catalogue focused, being more sales focused, at other times being hobby and sort of creative focused. I think that era was quite a good balance between those different aspects of the colours. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Um, yeah, yeah, it was a fairly good mix while while I was there. I mean, I was there for a long time, but um, but I think Paul managed to keep it as a a good balance. Um I remember there was a uh a good arc example of the the kind of management influence coming in where we did the plastic dreadnought came out, the first ever plastic dreadnought. Um and we did this wonderful double page spread covered in amazing photos of the uh of the dreadnought in the different all the different colored. Dreadnoughts that they heavy metal are painted up in different terrains and uh all look fantastic. Um and then it would of course it was Alan Merritt in his o overview of everything, came to have a look over and uh got very annoyed at us. Um uh and explained, which was a big revelation at the time, um, that the the reason to do a plastic dreadnought was not to sell plastic dreadnoughts, was to sell all the space marine range, uh, which was obvious once you had it pointed out, but none of us had worked that out at that point. Um, so we had to re photograph the the entire spread and uh put in loads of space marines next to the next to the dreadnought.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Right. Yeah. Oh, that's fascinating because that's such a it's a it's an i it's really interesting how like those kind of subtle decisions can be quite important, and you know, for for for good reason and a lot of good good commercial reasons as at times as well. Like it's so interesting like having to make those decisions throughout like every issue, I guess, and trying to make sure that that's considered when okay, we're gonna do an article about X, but that needs to be relevant to other stuff that's happening, right? Other things that are available. Um, yeah. Because even though the the like the tale of four gamers kind of stuff, which was you know i aspirational, I suppose, isn't it, to get people to have that same sort of experience when they build their armies and they go off and buy their armies. So, I mean, did you you you say you you worked at White Dwarf for a long time. Was it like did you miss it when you left White Dwarf? Was it like a uh you know overall a sort of favorable positive experience working on there?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Oh yeah, it was a it was a it was a great experience, yes. I so I and I kind of worked my way up. It ended up being, I think I was called the product production editor's kind of Paul's uh right-hand man. Um, and and it was my responsibility to put to run the schedule by that point. Um uh so so yeah, yeah, we got very late. There was there was a point where we were really behind schedule, um, because everything just landed on Paul's desk, and then we were always just waiting for him to look over stuff and tell us what to change. Um, so yeah, but I went from that to uh being becoming the editor of Battle Games in Middle Earth, um right. Uh which was two weekly, so it went even it was even more mental.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Sure, yeah. Yeah, well I was really interested about this then. So did you like how did it come about then? How did the sort of Battle Games in Middle Earth magazine, the sort of part work magazine, we was it where was the idea floated, I guess, to start with?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Um I think I mean it was it was a very busy, it was a really business decision. Um I don't know where where the idea was spawned, but um uh there's uh there was a manager called um called Max Bottrell, who became manager of the studio for quite became manager of the studio later. Um but but I think he was essentially driving this idea and uh had linked up with the part work company D'Agostini, um, who did all these kind of part works where you kind of I don't know build the Titanic with a hundred different parts um stuff like that. Um yeah, and then it was just this general idea to try and do that with um well Lord of the Rings was obviously the one they picked, um to and kind of take that opportunity of Lord of the Rings was already pulling in new customers for for Games Workshop, and it was really put that on steroids. And I think uh there's a lot of people that that was their point of entry uh into Games Workshop was the that magazine.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Sure, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because that the sort of the Dagostini, obviously, having done many, many of these part works, I believe, still do these sort of part works. I imagine there is a like a special process, like it has its own quirks, I'm guessing, to actually create, physically create and release and distribute part work like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, the um first of all, there was there's kind they just do we had to do four the first four issues as a test, and they just put that out in one region of the country uh to see how it does. Um, and if that reaches a certain threshold, then they'll relaunch it everywhere. Um, and then we had to start kind of doing it two weekly. Um but the early, the early first test of the four packs, we worked very closely with uh an editor from their Gostini, so they brought a whole a very different uh attitude to it. Every single page had to be really visual and visually appealing, and pictures everywhere, and uh far far more explain you know, bet better explanations and clearer, less less assumed knowledge. Uh had had to assume someone but had has absolutely no clue what the hobby is about whatsoever, and really start from complete frass tacks.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Sure, yeah. Yeah, because I'm guessing that the actual I'm sure there was a lot of crossover readership of that and white dwarf, but I'm imagining that there would have been a lot of, like you say, a lot of people whose first entry point into the hobby is through this magazine. So they've never played it, they've never seen it, never had a model in their hands, uh like a citadel model. So it's like did that I guess that changes like the writing in quite a significant way, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Yeah, yeah, especially at those beginning ones, it was really kind of you know, just showing people that you you know just need paint on the end of the brush, and just and that you have to then mix in a bit of water, and then you need to clean your brush, and just so so kind of basic and starting level, um, that we you would never even considered of saying in White Dwarf, um, certainly at that point. Um, and yeah, because it went on newsstands everywhere, they lit they absolutely swamp it out. The first issue is always always an amazingly good value. Um, so and so thousands and thousands of people buy that first issue, um, and then it kind of drops deeply down and and and to a certain level of people who carry on buying it and subscribe properly. Um but it was the certainly at that point it was the most successful partwork D'Agstina had ever done. Wow. Um, and I think it was for quite some time.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Um, and I mean essentially the one one of the new buildings at the head office was paid for off the back of them.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Really? Yeah. Wow. I mean, and and I because obviously it was quite a it's a cultural phenomenon, right? Lord of the Rings. It's huge it was huge, people were were going to see it in droves. Obviously, it brought a lot of people into Games Workshop with the battle game. That's fascinating though to hear that it's that sort of scale of success to to have outstripped so many of those other part works that Dagostini were doing. Um that's inc incredible. I mean, do you because uh is there a sort of I mean you mentioned that sleep curve down that threshold that they have for right, this is gonna go national. I'm guessing that has to they uh have baked in a certain amount of sort of attrition, I suppose, right? Of of like because once you get to a certain point, you can't, it must be harder. When you're on issue 40, a new person coming in is gonna struggle to get into it.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

You couldn't you couldn't even do that because the after a certain point it was only subscriber. Right. Only the first, I don't know, four or whatever, however many the early issues are the only ones in that went in newsagents.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

That's interesting. So you so it then becomes subscription only after a certain one. I think so. I think so. And then that so your pool of potential readers gets smaller and smaller and smaller with every issue, right? So you're gonna have to you must have had to do some amazing work to to retain enough people.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Well essentially they it they encourage people to subscribe, um and obviously there's some drop-off, but once you subscribe, most people kind of stick with it. Um right. Uh and there was you know special things at certain stages that you'd get um to make trying to sweet sweeten the idea, but but it was it was still, I think, compared to a lot of part works, it was still quite good value because you were still getting a you know at least a metal model or a sprue or something every every time, which was which was not really not too bad for the price.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

No, absolutely, yeah. I mean, how were those decisions made? Was it like who who was deciding what was going to be sort of parceled out and available for for going in with each magazine with each issue?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

We had a fairly free hand, so it was all worked out within our little battle games team. Um and you know, it there was a certain price point that we we could do, and within that we we had a fairly free range, so we worked it all out so it was um so the kind of the expertise level was gradually growing um throughout the run.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Um from obviously very basic at the beginning, but we kind of gradually taught people new painting techniques and how to build terrain and more complicated aspects of the rules. Um so yeah, that that was generally worked out, and then every so often there was a special, I don't know, the Christmas Christmas edition, we had more budget so we could do a mounted Gandalf or something.

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Um and we could we could we were allowed to put in a more expensive model.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Sure. Right. Do you remember how many issues you actually made it to then?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Personally, I I don't know. I think um I'm guessing 60 or 70, something like that. I know well I left and Mark Latham took over as editor and he ended up doing more than me, but um, because it just kept on, it was just so successful, it's kept off on getting s extended. Um but I remember we the um there was plans for a 40k one.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Um towards the end of my time in that department, we were we'd we were kind of working out um the plans and the costings um and the powers that be put a stop to it. Um because it was actually the the battle games was kind of so successful it was causing problems in the stores. Um because they were just swamped, suddenly swamped with so many people, all these kind of random people who'd seen seen the things in this in the uh in the news agent, and a lot of them weren't really in it for the long haul, and it it was actually just causing a lot of issues in in the stores. And I think for that reason they decided they didn't want to do it again for 40k.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Really? That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, because obviously like ultimately they would, I believe they have since done a number of 40k and Age of Sigma fireworks, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, yeah. But uh, I think at that point the um because we had the like the first 20 20 issues worked out and kind of basically written. Um but uh yeah at that point there was uh the I mean it wasn't the workshop, wasn't quite the monolithic industrial uh beam off that it is now. Um they were still kind of uh you know finding their feet in some way areas they were just kind of starting to break into America and um so there was they were trying to focus on the core the core business, I think is the and not not get distracted by random things off on the side too much.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Sure, yeah, which makes sense, and obviously worked out in the long run. Uh for them, yeah. So then you you came back across to the sort of the main the main sort of center of of GW. So what was that move then? Were you you went into the game development team, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Uh yeah, sort of. Um essentially, well, as I say, Max Bottrell was the manager at Battle Games, and he moved across first uh and became the manager of the studio at that point. Um so I'd been constantly bending his ear about what I thought needed to change in the studio. Um uh and particularly I had some ideas about kind of uh pulling all the different creative strands together better. Um so essentially you had different departments in the studio just doing their own little bit of the job, um, and they weren't really coordinated at all. They'd just all get this part would make the uh, like I say, the black and white pages, this department would make the color pages, this someone else would do the cover, and just at the end of the process, they'd all just get stuck together. Um and there was a particular example of I think it was the Chaos Chaos Warriors army book. Um, whereas the where the the inside cover had this amazing picture of a chaos warrior, and then the first black and white page facing it had this amazing picture of a of a chaos warrior, and no one had realized that they were going to be facing each other. Um so essentially I pitched the idea that they there should be some sort of central person as the a kind of creative editor uh looking off kind of looking after the whole thing. Uh and and then and because Max knew me from the previous thing, then they created that job. Um and I was kind of attached to to games to games development to do that. Um because they kind of had the they were the ones kind of most mostly involved in putting the books together.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Right. Um because you were w got to work on the eighth edition of Warhammer Fantasy, right? The big book.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

The really big book, yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

The really big book, yeah. There's an absolutely gorgeous book, but chop full of of stuff, like a real you know, there's a huge amount of information from from modelling and and and hobby through the world, through the rules, obviously. I mean what was that experience like? Do you remember much of that?

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, I think there was uh Jeremy Betock was a big mover in that, so I think by that point he was uh I think he was running games, games development by that point. Um and he was just he was absolutely so passionate about the the kind of the narrative side of gaming and uh the background and he kind of really kind of prior to him it was much more kind of tournament play was was the was the focus up to that point, and then he was really pushed the more kind of characterful side of the of gaming um because that had always been his big passion. Um so yeah, it was it was it was great. We were doing there there was these amazing big kind of panoramas that Dave Andrews was doing, kind of huge big battlefields, and it was just a massive kind of studio-wide push to just to do the most amazing book.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Yeah, it and it is, I think I think it as just as an artifact, that book is has got to be one of the strongest sort of encapsulations of Warhammer as a as an art form, I guess, and and sort of covering every aspect of it. I mean you've got you've there's like the gatefold siege of um uh uh the the the uh Volganov, I think it is, yeah, yeah, something like that, yeah. Which is uh just incredible and amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Absolutely stunning, yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

It really is, right? It really is. So I mean, was that because there's quite a lot of folks listed in the credits for that book? So it seems like there's no I mean you said it was like an all all all hands push almost across the the organization. Do you remember any of the sort of the remit around eighth edition or the sort of the ambition for it, the drive?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I think um so just correct me, is that the one where we went with much bigger units as well?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yes, yeah, I thought so. Um yeah, it was just about kind of making everything bigger. Right. Um so so the gaming side, I remember it was just because we had we'd spent so long where where that it was just these little four by four units of everything, wasn't it? Um because there was no point doing anything bigger. Um and um so it was just this drive to do kind of bigger gain to allow people to um to kind of you know have a reason to make bigger armies, really. Um which was a kind of a commercial drive to it as well. Um and it just looked amazing on the table, having these huge units and uh and much bigger battlefields, and yeah, it just kind of I think it was building on the back of Apocalypse for 40k, um, which I also was quite quite involved with, um, which was just took it from being this uh took 40k from that kind of very set. You generally pay 1500 points, it was very competitive, and there was no reason to have much of a bigger army than that. Um, and then Apocalypse just it was what 40k ought to be about. It was like these huge, it was um it was trying to make, I think for both books, it's trying to make what was happening on the table actually be a much better reflection of what the background was saying. These huge, epic, incredible battles. Um whereas the tape up until that point, what was happening on the table was quite small and exacting. Um, so you know, it was just opening things up and it and it's kind of and it was it was awesome, frankly.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Do you remember what the sort of like the the reaction was amongst the player base to well, I guess to both Apocalypse and to the eighth edition of Warhammer?

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Well, I think um Apocalypse certainly was very good because all of a sudden you were bringing in um you know super heavy tanks and uh you know it just started to bring in you know Titans and you know big stompers and all all of these much bigger kits became um instead of a kind of really niche Forge world thing, suddenly became into the mainstream. Um so I think that was hugely exciting for everyone, and it was um whereas Warhammer, I'm not sure it quite had the same um I don't I don't know if it landed in quite the same way.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, because it's I mean, in retrospect, it's certainly that push to larger units and kind of bigger armies and more centrepiece models and that sort of stuff doesn't seem to have played out quite as favourably for fantasy as it did for forty K.

unknown 43:59

Well it

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Was the last one really wasn't was it that am I right? It was the last edition before they blew up the world.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Yeah. Um, but it's it's you know, there's there's certainly uh it's really interesting to hear that sort of broader, you know, it's it is awesome to see these things, and that what is in that book is magnificent. You know, you you g you are seeing this really aspirational version of a Warhammer battle, I guess, on the tabletop, that becomes a different thing when you need to make that army on that sort of scale yourself, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Yeah, well, I think that was that was the you know, in a kind of very commercial business sense. Warhammer was just lagging, lagging further and further behind 40k. Um and that book just didn't fix it, didn't fix that problem. Um so I mean it you know it's just you know, the particularly back then the investment in every plastic kit was such a large amount of money. Um, you know, why why would they why would they want to keep doing Warhammer kits when they could just do a new space wing kit and make ten times more out of it? Um and that there was just that mismatch and if things weren't working.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And and obviously we you sort of see how that story continue. I mean, was there a lot uh of other books and products that you worked on during that era of your career?

SPEAKER_01 45:34

Uh many.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Any that stand out as like particularly memorable or exciting?

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Um well certainly Apocalypse was probably one of the biggest ones. I think um uh I guess I was gonna say more time, but that was that that was while I was on what White Dwarf. More time was a huge a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Um and everyone very got very, very into that. Um uh I did things like um the Planet Strike book. I'm just sorry, I'm looking over here at my bookshelf to try and remember. Um so there was yeah, yes, Planet Strike, there was this the City Fight um book, there was all the uh the Index Astartes books started to become a thing and started getting published. Um so that was that was a lot of fun. Um and then you know, count countless army books and codexes and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Sure, yeah. I mean the that's interesting what you were saying about like Gorka Morca, that had like a real in the studio or in in in the uh within the company, like a huge reaction, and sounds like a lot of folks were playing it and and and getting into it. And same with Mordheim and the sort of skirmish games seem to do quite well internally, right? Did did that ever sort of was that an indicator for like how things might be received?

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Well, I I mean I guess not because Mordheim's been wildly successful and Gulkamonka was at the end of the other end of the scale. Um I think the thing with this a skirmish game is just that much more accessible because in terms of time and effort and money, um it's just takes less effort to to have enough to play compared to having to have you know two thousand-point army, which is gonna take you a year, um and and you know vast vast vastly more cash if you're a customer. Um so so yeah, that's where where this a skirmish game kind of does its does its job really well. Um, because you can just get into it, play, you know, more time, you you know, your little gang, your little force of ten men, um, you just have fun painting them up in some lunch times and and you can get on with it and play.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Sure, yeah. Which I I I guess you know makes sense as well. I think because since leaving Games Workshop, you've m moved into creating those kind of skirmish games as well yourself, right? Yeah. So I mean what what was the sort of so I think it's Test of Honor. Was that your your first game? The sort of samurai game.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Yes. Um, so I I ended up off uh it's I'm skipping a few different stages, but I ended up at um Warlord Games um with uh John Salad and Paul Sawyer again. So I think I that's kind of a big part of getting getting a job at uh Warlord was because I knew Paul quite well. Um so yeah, while I was at Warlord, um I was involved in writing this Test of Honor game just because uh I'd done a lot of martial arts and as had um one of the other chaps there, um which kind of leads on to this kind of interest in Japanese stuff and samurai. Um so we just wrote this game for fun, uh and it's very much uh kind of 10 to 20 people on either side uh really wanted to kind of capture that kind of real loose spinning sword play of this kind of elite samurai spinning around, cutting down one guy, spinning around, cutting down someone else, um, and not having people up kind of fixed in place when they're fighting, which was a very games workshop thing. Um, of once you're in combat, you're stuck. Uh so that was a big difference, uh kind of breaking that away so you you can just attack and then you you're free again. Um, and it became a much kind of looser, more fluid game. Um and uh it became it was very successful at Warlord, and then uh I left and set up my own company specifically to publish that and uh and some others since then. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Yeah, because you I mean you mentioned like Mordheim and the the excitement that Mordheim still generates, but you've you've explored like you know a different sort of dark kind of skirmishy fantasy world, right, with your Traitor's Toll game.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Yeah, so the um Guards of Traitor's Toll is uh it's it's set it's a it's a living kind of not breathing fantasy city where people are just going about their business selling fish and pickpocketing and uh and trading and traveling, and so it's just your classic fancy city that you might have played a DD game in or uh City of Thieves fancy book or played lots of computer games. Um it's really I really tried to make it um generic enough that it kind of fit fits into anyone's imagination of what a fancy city ought to be like. Um, and then you play the guards trying to kind of solve crime and and arrest uh pickpockets and assassins and rogue wizards. Um and uh yeah, and it's a it's a kind of much less competitive game because all the players have got their own little guard captain and little team of guards, uh, and you're just trying to be the most successful at arresting people and and not upset not upset the populace and cause any rebellions or anything like that. Um so yeah, it's quite a different um approach in that you're not it's a like a war game without any war. There's you're not just fighting, you're not just trying to kill the other side as fast as possible.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Yeah. Sounds like it'd be great for like creating stories there as well at the tabletop.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Yeah, it's a very, very, very kind of narrative thing. You never know, kind of you're pulling cars to find out what happens. Um, and you've got a table full of uh of kind of civilians, civilian models, kind of just going about their day, and you'll pull a card which says, Oh, find find a model with bare feet there now, a pickpocket, they've just and they're gonna run off, and you need to try and chase them down and catch them before they escape the board, or or a drunken dwarf starts shouting and causing ruckus, or you know, everything can happen and and and often does during the game, and you just have to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

That's very fun. Yeah, I like that. That sort of spontaneous kind of story emerging and then how you're reacting to it. That's really great. I mean, how is it different like working like with your own publishing company? I imagine it's quite a different sort of marketplace and the sort of like the approaches you must have to take and this kind of way you must work. I'm guessing that's quite different to a warlord or a games workshop environment.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

Um I I am at the other end of the other end of the scale, uh, in that it's largely a uh a one-man company with with lots of help, but it's all these kind of different things that I picked up over the year at years at Games Workshop at Warlord, uh, the editing layout and photography and um doing the website and the web store and and so so I kind of it's kind of that same idea of when I went back to the studio wanted to control everything. Um now I really can control everything.

unknown 54:13

Sure enough.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah. So what what's next then for for the for your games and your game company?

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Um well so again, because it's just me, then three games are probably enough. You want to keep supporting them and bringing out new stuff and new expansions and new models and new sets. Um so uh so I've got loads more ideas for Traitor's Toll with sort of slowly um evolving. The there's an overarching story and some kind of plot points of things happening in the city, kind of behind the scenes that you'll slowly get to discover. Um, whereas at the same time, I've I've got the the bird game that we haven't mentioned, which is uh O200 hours, which is World War II, um, but kind of nighttime stealthy SAS missions. So there's new more stuff coming to that. I'm working on sculpts for that at the moment. Um, and yeah, it's just kind of keeping keeping bringing out new stuff for for for all three. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Exciting. Yeah, that's great. Well, I will include a link to your website down in the description below. Marvelous, thank you. Yeah, it sounds like there's some really fun stuff there as well. And and yeah, I really like the idea of uh Guards of Traitors Toll. That sounds like a really fun game.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah, yeah, thanks very much, Jordan. That's that'll be really, really useful. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Well, I think this has been a really terrific conversation, Graham. So thank you so much for taking the time to to chat to me. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah, no, it's been lots of fun. Thanks, Jordan.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Massive thanks to Graham for taking the time to chat to me about his amazing career and work at Games Workshop. It was a real joy. Thank you, Graham. If you would like to find out more about Graham's games like Guards at Traitor's Toll and Test of Honor, then you can follow the link in the description down below to check out his company, Gray for Now Games. And visit patreon.com slash Jordansorcery if you would like exclusive and early access to interviews, articles, blog posts, podcasts, all sorts of cool stuff about the history of Warhammer, the history of Games Workshop, and behind the scenes around my work exploring all of that. Your support is the only way I can continue to do what I do, so I am so grateful for all of your help. Thank you once again to Graham. Thank you for joining us. I'm Jordan, and this is Jordan Sorcery, I think.