Imposter Syndrome - It's Costing You More Than You Think | With Shelley Martinez

In this episode of "Chat with Nat: Conversations That Count," Nat welcomes Shelley Martinez, a life coach and psychotherapist, to discuss imposter syndrome and its impact on confidence, finances, and decision-making—especially for high-achieving women. Shelley shares personal stories and practical strategies for overcoming self-doubt, emphasizing the importance of recognizing accomplishments and reframing negative beliefs. Together, they explore how imposter syndrome holds women back and offer actionable tips to build confidence, embrace success, and stop playing small. Listeners are encouraged to acknowledge their achievements and rewrite their internal narratives for lasting growth.

What you'll hear:

• Definition and explanation of imposter syndrome
• Prevalence of imposter syndrome among women, particularly high-achieving women
• Impact of self-doubt on confidence, decision-making, and financial well-being
• Personal stories illustrating the effects of financial ignorance and self-doubt
• The role of confirmation bias in reinforcing feelings of inadequacy
• Differences between confidence and arrogance, and the importance of healthy humility
• Strategies for overcoming imposter syndrome, including tracking successes and reframing thoughts
• The significance of soft skills and emotional intelligence in measuring competence
• The relationship between imposter syndrome and broader life areas, such as career growth and relationships
• The importance of legacy and the impact of overcoming imposter syndrome on future generations.

Shelley’s special offer : 

The Imposter Breakthrough: 3 steps, with practical tools, to keep you from feeling like a fraud, and help you start believing in your own worth.
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Transcript

0:24

Hey friends, welcome back to chat with Nat conversations that count where we talk real life, real money, and real strategies to build wealth without worry and a life well lived. Today's episode is brought to you by Casa de Confidence Productions. Julie and Dan Collins are the kind of team every podcaster dreams of their supportive, professional, and incredibly talented at making sure your voice comes through clearly and confidently. If you've ever thought maybe I should start a podcast, go visit them at Casa de confidence website and see what that could look like for you. Have you ever walked into a room you worked so hard to be in and still felt like you didn't belong there? Like at any moment somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, we made a mistake. You're not supposed to be here. That feeling has a name, and it's called imposter syndrome. And today we're not just going to talk about what it is. We're talking about how it quietly impacts your confidence, your voice, and even your finances. I'm joined today by Shelley Martinez, a life coach, licensed psychotherapist, and certified hypnotherapist with nearly 30 years of experiencing experience helping high achieving women stop playing small and start showing up unapologetically. What's wild is this imposter syndrome often starts way earlier than we think. So if you've ever felt like you're not as capable as you think you are, or as other people think you are. This episode is for you. Of course, before we jump into the today's episode, we've got to talk about the money tip. So here's your money tip. Self-doubt is expensive. Let's break it down. Self-doubt delays decisions. It keeps you from asking for raises. It keeps you from investing. It keeps you from building wealth confidently. The longer you question your worth, the longer you delay your wealth. I'm so excited to have Shelly here today for this conversation. And Shelly, I want to just have you say hello real quick. And then if you will, share with us the little story you gave me, the the financial story that you remember, because I think it plays perfectly into that money tip and then into where we're going with today's episode. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for stuff for having me here. I am so excited to be talking with you today and this is so near and dear to my heart because money has been a struggle, honestly. And you know, the thing that we were talking about that I told you was that when I got my first official job at the paycheck, I literally had no idea how to cash my check. And it didn't cross my mom's mind to tell me, and it didn't cross my mind to ask her. And so I honestly, this is so embarrassing. But I went to the grocery store and I bought something I didn't need so that I could cash my check, and I did that for months before I figured it out because I had no savings account, no checking account, no nothing, no knowledge whatsoever. And I feel like I've kind of, since then, made most all mistakes that you can possibly make and learned everything the hard way. Hey, I'm right there with you. I've talked openly on this podcast many times about a lot of the financial mistakes I made and what you made was a good point. You didn't know what you didn't know, and because of that, it put you in a situation where you were making, you know, purchases, which I'm guessing in your teenage years. It's not like it was necessarily hundreds of dollars of purchases, but still making purchases you didn't need to make to try and get the money that you had earned. And I think that's such a great example to lead into today's episode, because oftentimes our self-doubt or lack of confidence comes from things that we don't know. Things nobody ever taught us, things nobody ever talked to us about. And so we're stepping into the unknown, and we're doing our best with the information we have. But I often think those situations are what can introduce self-doubt, lack of confidence into our lives. That then carries into the areas that we do have knowledge and information and yet still second guess ourselves. So as we jump into the episode, of course I want to ask the most obvious question. When people hear the term imposter syndrome, they may not fully understand it. Right? I've heard of it a lot. And you, when you and I spoke a week or so ago talking about doing this episode, there was information you gave me about it that was different than the general of what I had heard or what I assumed from what I'd heard that it actually was. So can you give us, in simple terms, a definition of what imposter syndrome is? Oh, absolutely. And a lot of us have heard of it but don't entirely understand it necessarily. So imposter syndrome refers to when someone basically feels like they've gotten their success by kind of tricking someone or sliding under the radars just because they liked me. Basically, they discount everything they've done to create that success validly. And so they always feel like a fraud. They always feel like they're going to get caught. Someone's going to tap on the shoulder, like you said and go, hey, we made a mistake. Or, you know, we just figured out you have no idea what you're doing. And so living with this anxiety all the time is so very debilitating. And it actually impacts about 72% of women, men as well. But women are a little bit harder. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that. But again, imposter syndrome is about this feeling, this belief that I'm not as good as everyone thinks I am despite the evidence, because most of the time there's a lot of evidence to stack up to show us that no, we really did earn our spot at this table. We really do know what we're doing. The problem, it turns out, lies in how we define and measure competence. Mhm. Yeah. That's so important. Um, thank you for that. That simple explanation of it. I think most people can resonate with that somewhere in their life. Um, I know that I've always liked to think I'm a pretty confident person. Mhm. I think that's based on the places I've been comfortable and confident at the same time, because in reality, when I look back and I can even name experiences where I got new opportunities on my merits and still thought, why in the world did they pick me? Can I really handle this? Am I really going to be able to provide the deliverable deliverable that my employer is looking for? And even even down to the aspect of being a mom, I wanted to be a mom so bad. And then when I had my son, I was like, I have no clue what I'm doing. Am I even qualified to raise a healthy, productive human being, right? So there's so many areas in our lives, new things that come along the way are advancements that are a step up from where we've been, in which case we definitely have all the proof in the world that we belong there because it's the next logical step. And yet we still get stuck thinking somehow we don't belong there or we don't deserve that. Those accolades or that accomplishment or that next opportunity. Um, so when we talk about high achieving women, which I know is an area you really focus on and, and we we as, as those women think, I'm not as talented, as smart, as capable as whomever thinks that I am. Um, and like you said earlier, they're going to figure it out. You know, the bubbles going to burst. They're going to figure it out. Why is that so sticky. Even for highly accomplished women that you would think likely aren't going to run into that issue. Ah, that's such a good question, because I mean, really think of so many icons. It's it is high achieving women in particular that struggle here. And you bring up a really good point that it's not just at work. It's often in your personal lives as well, which I think is more common with women than men. But the reason it's so sticky is something we call, um, confirmation bias. What that basically means is that when I have a belief in my head, I look for things to support and confirm my belief, and I discount things that don't. So if I think that, well, I'm not quite as smart that I'm going to look for all the reasons and identify even neutral information is, oh, this is a reason that I'm not as capable, as smart, as talented as is, whatever it is. Right? And we're going to ignore the fact or we're going to twist it around of how we got here. When you talk about, you know, the next logical step in moving up in our career or business, expanding whatever. Women often will say, well, I just got lucky or. Well, they just like me. Or, you know, there were a whole lot of applicants. It wasn't that big a deal. I didn't contribute that much. If it was a group program, you know, constantly discounting what they're bringing to the table and what they've done and accomplished. And when you do that, it just reinforces that belief that I'm not really all that. Yeah. You know, and I think women struggle a lot with that because a lot of us are really afraid of being arrogant. We're afraid of not being liked if we are, and we might personally find arrogant people really off putting. And we don't understand there's a real difference between being confident about my abilities and being arrogant. Arrogance is about I'm looking down on others. Mhm. I'm sitting up on my high hill going, well I'm, I'm all out in a bag of chips basically. Yeah. And the rest of you are not. Whereas confidence comes from a sense of me knowing who I am. Mhm. You know a stable confidence not a, not a shaky one. Uh and that includes, you know, the things that I'm not so great at. Which is one of those thinking errors that people with imposter syndrome really struggle with is there's often a sense of I have to be perfect or it's nothing this very black and white thinking, yeah, you know. Um, I just recorded so. So this episode is dropping the third, fourth week next week. The fourth week of March to close out, um, International Women's Month. Women's. What's the actual. It's International Women's Day and then. I don't. Know, it's women's whatever, International Women's Month. That's what we're going to call it because every woman around the world should be recognized this month. We should be recognized every day, but especially this month that they've given us. So I'm just going to go with that. It's so interesting to hear you say that because I as I'm listening to you, there's little things popping in my head like I think of when I first stepped into corporate America, I, I, I got a lot of lateral movement and experience. So my first corporate management position was in the accounting center, the shared services center for JCPenney. Huge, huge corporation. And it was so big that their accounting department was probably 20 to 30 different departments that did different small functions. That all rolled up into the overall accounting for the company. Right? In my first two years there. I was moved, I think it was three times in two years. And that's how they did it. Is there there managers that they saw as up and coming, people that they wanted to promote and help grow their careers? They would move you from department to department because that's how you would get the experience overall in accounting for the company. Right? Because it was just section by section. And I remember during that time I was put on a project. Now JCPenney used to own Eckerd Drug. If anybody out there has ever heard of Eckerd Drug, I think it was in the Southeastern United States. And so at this time, I'm probably 30, 31 years old, and I am put as the lead on this project. And JCPenney was selling Eckerd Drug they were selling it to, I want to say Brooks. Something like that. And CVS. So Eckerd Drug was being split in half to be sold to two different companies, which meant all of the accounting history had to be split up to transfer with those locations to the new companies. Now, I was put as the lead on this project, and I was thinking, there is no way why in the world would they put me as the lead on this project? Because my right hand guy on that project, I knew number one was frustrated that he didn't get the opportunity. I did, and he knew all the inner workings of what had to happen it wise to make this all happen. And I remember once the project was completed, I sat down with the VP of finance and I said, why was I put in that position. I've now learned all of this, and I understand everything we did and why, but I didn't have that knowledge before the project happened. And he said to me, I didn't put you in that position because you were the most transactional, qualified from an accounting perspective. I put you in that position because of the leadership skills you had, and I knew you would be meeting with CEOs of other companies, and I knew you could handle that level of the project. I knew you could lead the project, and all I had to do is give you the right person to handle the transactions. And so for me, it didn't make me think, oh, see, I was right. I wasn't really qualified to be there. I was, because I could lead, not because I could do all of the incremental items. And I think sometimes we don't separate the fact that While we may have areas of growth and opportunity to learn and become better, we have areas that we excel at. Exactly. But exactly what you said is I was looking for all the reasons I wasn't qualified to be there, instead of the reasons that I was. Yes. And that happens so often. Yeah. You know, you discounted your ability to lead the group, which is critical without leadership. It all falls apart. I mean, I don't even have to have been in that world to know that. Yeah. You know, and the transactional piece, you know, that's pretty easy to pick up if you're bright and you were obviously bright and knew what you were doing, that's why they were moving you around. That's why they pegged you, you know. But if you'd really struggled with imposter syndrome more, you know, everyone has a touch. But, you know, then it might have felt like you were set up instead of you had this opportunity? Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. For me, I did look for all the ways I thought I wasn't qualified, but at the same time, I thought I'm going to prove them right. And it wasn't until after the project that I understood why they put me there. So I didn't go ask for that up front. That may have even, um, given me a greater level of confidence stepping in. I waited until after the fact, but what drove me was my desire to do a good job, to make sure whether I was qualified or not, that I ended up being the right person that they had put there. And so that raises another question then. So is that I guess that's still a form of imposter syndrome. But what is that difference with somebody that lets it paralyze them versus somebody that lets it propel them? Well, I think that's very much to the definition because again, as I said a second ago, you know, we all struggle sometimes with a little imposter syndrome, if you think of it on a continuum of like, wow, I really don't know what I'm doing here in certain areas. The difference between someone who has or struggles with imposter syndrome and someone who doesn't is that people who don't struggle with it think, okay, I'll figure it out. Whereas people who struggle with imposter syndrome tend to think, I'm never going to figure it out, I can't figure it out. I'm not capable. And now they're going to catch me. Okay. So it's a distortion, you know, some anxiety for everything. Kind of. You know what I hear you describing more is that high functioning anxiety which goes hand in hand where you're going. Oh, this is a little spicy and stretchy. I don't know. You know, I'm going to figure this out though. I'm going to show them that this was the right choice, even though I'm not so sure it was the right choice right now. Yeah. You know, in that anxiety is at a moderate level what we need to function our best. That's what people don't really understand. So it's you know, it's very interesting when I work with people, a lot of times they'll come in and ask me to help them get rid of their anxiety. And I have to explain to them that would be very bad. We actually perform our best if we're in a moderate range of anxiety, because anxiety makes us pay attention to things, it keeps us alert. And really that's its only function is to tell us, you know, heads up, things are changing or this is a different situation. Pay attention. That's really the only message of anxiety. But when you've got too low of an anxiety level, you don't pay attention to stuff. You're kind of half asleep, but if it's too high, then you're so preoccupied by what's going on in your body and head that you can't pay attention either. Mhm. And so people who struggle with imposter syndrome typically are a little bit on that high end. Okay, so they can't settle themselves down to pay attention and grasp their capabilities, what needs to be done and move things forward because they're so stuck in the I'm not this, that or the other. Yeah, I'm feeling like a fraud. Although what's interesting is that even though they're feeling like a fraud and overwhelmed and going, I'm going to blow this, I know I can't pull this off. They do because they discount how capable they actually are. Okay. So then when they do, does that naturally. Uh, what's the word? Settle down. The imposter syndrome? No, no, you would think it would. But remember, there's this distortion. Yeah. Where I'm not recognizing what I'm actually good at, you know, and I'm discounting it. and explaining it away in my head why it doesn't really count. So actually achieving something, usually for someone who struggles with imposter syndrome that instead of feeling excited about a good job, they feel just relief like, oh my gosh, I got through that. Fooled them again. Don't know how, but I did it, fooled them again. Or I just barely made it through. Yeah. You know. So they still hang out that. Really enjoy. It. Yeah. I'm lucky they don't really see me who for who I am. Yet they still have on their rose colored glasses, thank goodness. But it doesn't actually build the confidence you think that it would. Know because of the confirmation bias. Because I walked in going, I don't know what I'm doing, and it's just a matter of time before they figure it out. I'm a fraud, you know, and because of the confirmation bias, until you purposely go in and work on that and adjust it because it comes from your subconscious. So it's very, very persistent and, you know, it's driving 95% or subconscious drives about 95% of what we think. Do, say, feel, believe, decide, whatever until you do some specific work on that. No amount of accomplishment is ever enough. Yeah, it always feels like, oh, I barely got through that, but I made it. You know, I but I explained it away. I had to overwork or I got really lucky or, you know, they just weren't having very high standards for me or whatever. Yeah. You're excusing. Away. Yeah. You're excusing away those accomplishments. So tell me a little bit more about the feeling that comes along with this. Like how does the how does the body and nervous system play into overcoming imposter syndrome? So that's a really good question because imposter syndrome does come with anxiety, with high functioning anxiety because that's what you're feeling. So your nervous system is too wound up. You're in too high a state. And that does actually present challenges. So in fact, people who are struggling with this are even better than they look on paper, because they're also struggling with this backlog in their nervous system and their mind and their feelings that are making it harder for them to do what they do. Um, to work with that, you have to first kind of understand the system better of three steps that use, reframe, regulate, and rewire to get out of this. And reframing is about understanding it differently, understanding what's happening in your nervous system, what's happening in your brain, the errors that you're making and your thinking, you know, confirmation bias, what competence really, really is. Because it's not what imposters. People who struggle with imposter syndrome think competence is a completely different thing than other folks. um, such as it, you know, doesn't count if I'm not perfect or if I didn't have all the original thoughts, then, you know, I'm not really that smart. Or if I didn't do it all myself, it doesn't matter. Or I have to be the ultimate expert in my field to be useful at all. It's this very black and white kind of thinking. And so after you've reframed and understood some of that and can start to spot some of those errors, the next thing is to regulate, which is down regulating your nervous system to coming to a state of calm, because that's where you're going to be able to think and perform better and start to break the pattern of this vicious cycle with your imposter syndrome. But that will only get you halfway there, because we also want to rewire the way your body responds to these situations so that it doesn't feel like you know it's a threat if you have to speak up in a meeting. Yeah. Or if you're, you know, being looked over for a promotion or something like that. People with imposter syndrome feel like those things are threats. Mhm. Like a tiger is stalking the hallways to get them. And so the rewiring is about creating a different foundation that you're working from. You know instead of I'm on high alert you know, so that I don't ever make a mistake. And then I replay all my conversations 52 times for what I did and didn't say, and check all my emails like 15 times. And I work all weekend and miss out on my whole life because I am overworking and avoiding at the same time. To deal with this, to try to cover this up. Which side note that actually only makes it worse. Yeah, it has a temporary effect of calming you, but ultimately it just keeps your nervous system feeling jacked up and like you're not safe. Mhm. So just returning that sense of safety and that real sense of confidence, that deep rooted confidence which comes from me knowing who I am, which is knowing what I'm good at and what I need to work on and being okay with that. Yeah. You know, that enables me to ask questions, to find out, to learn to do what I need to do, to be able to make up for those gaps. You know, like in your story, you figured out what to do with the transactions. You asked, questions you learned, you studied. I don't know what all you did, but clearly you did some stuff. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So this takes me back to my thought. I started earlier that I realized I, I didn't finish. I was saying just a couple days ago, I was recording an app, the episode that dropped this week or that we'll drop this week. And I was talking about the idea of perfection. Oh. Right. Perfect. The idea of perfection paralyzes you every single time because until you're perfect, you won't take action. And yet perfection is not attainable. Perfection doesn't exist, right? No. And so if if you think I'm not, I'm not good enough. I'm not perfect enough. I have to do this, that or the other. Then you you limit yourself for even going after some of those opportunities. And hopefully you're in an environment in a culture where people see in you what you don't see with in yourself and give you opportunities. Um, still, because you may not chase them thinking you're not qualified, which I think was my case, I wouldn't have chased that if they just said, hey, we have a project, who wants to put their name in the hat? I wouldn't have put my name in the hat, right? But the other thing I got from the segment and what you were just talking about is overcoming imposter syndrome is not an outward process. There's no amount of accomplishment if you are stuck in a place, uh, if you are really drowning in imposter Syndrome, feeling like you're not qualified. You're not accomplished enough. You're just lucky. Whatever it is. Nothing outward, no accomplishment outward is ever going to be fully over. Now, you may have tastes of, oh, I can do that, but the next thing that comes along the way is still going to challenge you, because you don't have enough faith in who you are to truly hold on to that evidence you gave yourself, that you are qualified, that you do deserve to be in the room or at the table or on the phone call, having the conversation, leading the project, whatever it might be. Um, and so it is that internal work. This is what I heard from what you said, that internal work of. Making those changes, going through that process, that then will let you see those external things as what they truly are instead of that distorted version of success. Yes. Exactly those. You got it on the head. I love that, so tell me. Because I still think there are areas that I. That I struggle with this wondering like, oh my gosh, can I even when I retired myself from corporate America, I was a successful financial executive. I had been building my business for two years, part time, but when I stepped fully into my business, there was still something that held me back and slowed me down. That first year or two that I was full time in carrying my success from where I'd been to here. Now, for me, I honestly think of most people in my company that I work with on a daily basis. I probably have the most connection to what I did in the past with what I do now. I went from corporate finance to personal finance. Finance, finance, right. And yet I was still stuck thinking. Am I qualified to be here? Am I qualified to help India? I can make a company tens of millions of dollars every year. I can show them where their systems are broken. I can show them where they're leaking money all day, every day. I don't bat an eye. Sitting at a table with a CEO to tell them where we're winning, where we're losing, and where we have some work to do. Somewhere between the two of those things, right. But to sit down and help a family. Initially there was this anxiety. And like you said, there's a portion of anxiety that is healthy. It helps you pay attention and make sure you're crossing all your t's, dotting all your eyes, whatever it might be. But even with the evidence for the first little while of helping people successfully put things in place, it still took me a little while to get there. And it was literally when somebody said to me The day that you walk into an appointment here to help a family like you used to walk into a boardroom, everything in your business will change. And that's when it clicked for me that my success anywhere is still my success here. Because success in and of itself is just success. It's not defined by where you got the success. The truth is, you still succeeded. And that's where for me, that change was. But it's not that simple for everybody. And you kind of helped clarify that when we had our initial conversation as well. So when we're talking about a woman who needs to stop playing small, she's juggling work, she's juggling family. She might be caregiving like myself or raising children, which in and of itself is caregiving as well. All of these things on our plate, what is it actually look like for her to stop playing small. Well, the first thing she needs to do is start really tracking her successes. Mm. You know, in fact, I have my clients write them down because it's harder to dismiss them if I write them down. Mhm. And to really start being aware of those things and the nuances and the pieces and understanding that that competence isn't about being perfect. It's not about having all the answers originally on your own, that it really is about what we do with what we've got. So even, you know, you describe being fortunate enough to get moved around to different experiences in your initial position. You did something with that opportunity. Not everyone would have. Mhm. You know luck luck might open the door but you have to walk through and you have to do something with it. And recognizing those things, recognizing especially for women, the, you know, soft skills that we talk about, like, you know, leadership and emotional intelligence, the ability to connect with people, to understand them, to work with them. All of those things are critical and in fact, are more, um, more powerful for success. Emotional intelligence is more an indicator of success than actual IQ, the intelligence quotient, and yet it's often discounted. So recognizing that a lot of the things that we've come to believe aren't necessarily true. Yeah. And there's a million ways we could have come to believe those things. But yeah, no. Experience or something somebody said. Right. That's that's a whole rabbit hole that we would take weeks to go down. Yeah. No, definitely. Yeah. But I, I think I think that's such a good point. Sometimes luck is on our side and opens the door, the window to an opportunity. But I want to reiterate where you said it's you stepping through that door or window. That makes the difference. Oh, absolutely. Which gets me to where you talked about earlier that there are a lot of people who are put off by arrogance. Mhm. And yet we can very easily misconstrue confidence for arrogance. And so on the flip side of that. You have healthy humility and then self-sabotaging doubt. Yes. What's the difference between those two. So humility again goes back to that grounded perspective of who I am. It's it's a power structure actually. It's called the power of dominion. And the power of there's two ways of doing interpersonal power, which brings in the arrogance question, I promise. Um. You're good. There's the power of domination. Okay. Which is the power most people are familiar with. Unfortunately. And it is a system like a ladder. If you imagine a ladder where people at the top of the ladder have more resources, more power, more goodies, whatever, then the people at the bottom. And it's based on scarcity. So there's only so much to go around. What this creates is unhealthy competition, and a lot of reason for others to also add to our self-doubt to throw gas on the fire. Because if I'm a, you know, this higher rung, I need to make sure that the people under me don't get up because they might take my place. Mhm. Okay. That's one form of interpersonal power. The second form is called the power of dominion. And dominion again comes from my sense of knowing who I am. It's about abundance, so I can be really good at whatever this thing. Baking bread. And you can be really good at baking bread. And I'm not going to be threatened by the fact that you're really good too, because there's room for all of us. And in fact, it creates cooperation. Because I'm going to say, now, how did you do that loaf of rye? I could never get my rye to work out. Right. And you're going to be like, oh, well, I just do this and this. And the other thing, you're not going to be afraid to share your resources with me, because you're also not afraid that I'm going to get better than you. So it creates this cooperation that brings us all up together. Mhm. So self-doubt comes from that ladder from the domination. It comes from comparing myself to others in a way that I'm ranking and filing and it's unrealistic. It's not owning. Okay. I'm not so great at baking rye bread. It's going like I'm a horrible baker and I'll never be good. Mhm. It's all inclusive versus looking at specific pieces and parts and opportunities for growth there. Exactly. Situations and self-doubt is is blanket. You know, if we like I know I'm not a very good speller and I have a whole other story which I won't torture you with, but a not a very good speller. I really am not. And I never have been. I don't, you know, that's just not my thing. I'm not very good at it. I'm grateful for spellcheck all the time. I wish now they had typo check. But you know, maybe one day they'll catch up with me. Yeah, that's not me feeling like an imposter. I know this to be true about myself, but I don't feel like a defective human being because I'm not very good at this. Yeah, so I use my tools, I use spellcheck, I sometimes run things through Google. How do you spell this word again? Yeah. You know, I figured out how to work around it and with it knowing that this is me, but it doesn't diminish my worth. Oh, I love that I have an opportunity to grow in this area, but it doesn't make me less than in any way. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's the difference. And so I can openly say to you and all of your listeners, I don't spell well. So, you know. Well, now. We don't do well to, you know, the cat is out of the bag. I you probably should have raised this episode now. No, actually, no. Listen, there's there's a million things. Look, I, I started in corporate finance when there was still. You had a scientific calculators and basic calculators and kind of this, you know, the standard calculator that would pop up on your PC as time went on. You know, Excel expanded. And I mean, I could rattle off Excel formulas like they were the back of some of the most complex Excel formulas in the world were all here. I could type that sucker in Excel so fast I could expand it across the spreadsheet full of information, and I could get all of this in analysis. You ask me now? Nope. Why? Because I don't use that tool all the time anymore. Exactly. But it doesn't mean I don't still have the ability to maybe tap back into that. Where and when? It makes sense for what I do today. But even if I had always. Like I tell people all the time. Look, I get paid to help people increase and protect their wealth, to protect their families, and to create a legacy they can leave behind, behind for generations to come. I don't get paid to do math on a piece of paper versus a calculator. Give me the calculator. Right. And so, so I, I don't know that I'd say I have the ability to go back and probably recapture a lot of those things I used to be able to do. Um, and so maybe it's situational. I don't need to do that the way I used to, and so I don't. But if you put me head to head to somebody that does that all the day, all the all day long, I couldn't compete with that. Right. And so because you're not using it. Yeah. But I say all that even to bridge to the idea of we get on social media and we compare. Yes. And comparison creates competitiveness. And that competitiveness does not allow us to probably nurture, grow or even try to create the relationships we could with people that we could learn from. We just think, I don't compare to that. I don't look like that person or I, I can't do that thing. They do whatever the case may be. And so we become competitive. But what you were just talking about that cooperative ness to me as I think about collaborating, right. I could not walk somebody through. You may not be able to spell as good as I do. If we sat down and and did a little mock spelling bee, I might I might kick your butt all day long. But you know what? I couldn't help somebody try to overcome or combat the areas that imposter syndrome is paralyzing them in their lives. Yeah, right. And I think that's that's part of the thing that is you're going if this is something you struggle with and just listening, this podcast is not going to solve all of this for you by any stretch of the imagination. Shelly's going to share an offering she has for you here in a minute, and how you guys can get in touch with her, like just hearing those things doesn't solve the problem overall. But I guess what I hope is this conversation today plants some of those seeds for people of like if they get on my social media, I can't talk about caretaking like Natalie does because I don't have that hands on experience, but for an older parent. But it doesn't make me less of a caregiver for my children, which I am. I could name a million friends of mine who were ten times better moms in a million different ways than me, but I know for a fact that I was the mom my son needed, and I know for a fact that I raised a amazing human being that contributes to society, served his country and all these other things. But do I still look back and think, man, I wish I would have been better at this when he was growing up? Of course I do. Comparison exists everywhere. It's whether or not we let it paralyze us and define who we are now because of something we didn't get as good as somebody. Like, if you were to find yourself as a smart person or not, simply because you you're not great at spelling. And I think most people would hear that and think, well, that's the most ridiculous thing we ever heard. And yet you have a business based around helping high, high achieving, high achieving, not just I mean, I imagine you can help any woman struggling with this, but your focus is high achieving women. So women that the rest of the world will look at and think they got their shit together, are the women you're working with to help them realize that they're enough? They're worthy of what they have. They deserve to walk through any door and set at any table, because even at that level, they're still struggling with the things that us everyday people think are only our issues, our struggles, our problems. But in reality, if we go through the process, if we recognize these things, if we start to do the work, then we look to create those relationships where we can collaborate. We can lean on the strengths of other people that might be our weaknesses, and our strengths can then exemplify their weaknesses. And we come. Better together, we can create more together than we ever can in silos or ever would, because we just sit and think, I'm not qualified for that. So I'm not even going to try. Exactly. Exactly. Knowing who we are and owning who we are is the key to being humble. A humble realist is what Valerie Young calls it, but but humble and honest about ourselves. And we can be confident and feel good about ourselves. But that doesn't mean anyone else is less than us. And that's where, you know, arrogance comes in again. And I think a lot of women really struggle with owning their value because they're afraid that they'll slip into arrogance that have been too confident. They'll be arrogant. Yeah. And it's it's completely different. It's like apples and oranges. Yeah. Arrogance comes from I'm better than everyone else. That's really what they're saying. Yeah. So whereas confidence is I'm good at this. Yes, yes. Yeah. And that doesn't mean you're not good at it and you're not good at it. And this other person's good at it. It just means I know I am. I love that. So let me ask you, I've just got a couple other quick questions, man. Time flies when we're having fun talking about so many things. Um, but let me ask you this. Do you think you talked about how what what was it? The statistic you gave 72% of women struggle with the 2%? Yeah. And you said it does impact men, but not at the same level. I imagine that probably a significantly lower level. But a question I have about that is, do you think that's because we are as women, we're innately more emotional beings rather than, uh. Like for me, I look at it and I don't know if this is the best way to say it, but men are black and white. They look at a problem, they find a solution for us. We're like, but why and how and how how do I feel about that? What do I think? Is that part of it that we're we're so tied into our emotions, and there has to be meaning or definition behind something that we're actually discounting our abilities because of that. I think sometimes that's the case. I think it's really complicated where it comes from. So, you know, some of the really big culprits are being a student. Well, everyone's been a student because it's set up almost like the comparison piece like you were talking about. It's adjacent to that of we were judged, but also that were raised by human beings. And if we get too much praise or not enough praise or not help to identify what we're really good at and what we really struggle with. But I do think women, because we're very tuned into social interaction, we do sometimes attend more to those messages. And between birth and puberty is when your subconscious is essentially forming and it takes everything that goes on everything you hear and experience at face value and it becomes a rule, not just a, oh, I experience this thing and this is what happened, because that part of your brain doesn't have the ability to sit back and go, oh, when someone said, you know, girls are no good at math, that was just their bias. I'm really good at math, actually, you know. Um, and so we do, I think, to some extent carry more of a burden. But also I think, you know, there there's a feminist component to it too, and that you were probably, um, as a woman, underrepresented in your corporate life. There probably weren't 51% of the corporation were women. So when you see less of yourself there, it can feel also, it can really feel that because you feel like you've got to make up for all the other women to kind of keep the door open for them. Sandra Day O'Connor talked about that feeling like she couldn't mess up because then no other woman would be named to the Supreme Court. Oh. And so it can really compound those things as well. So there's a number of different places that can come from. But yeah, sometimes our social intelligence can backfire a little bit for us. We can get a little tangled up in it. Yeah. Well, if that is an example, isn't an example of a high achieving woman still struggling with imposter syndrome? I, I don't I don't know what would be, um. Well, exactly. I mean, it's it's astonishing. Maya Angelou talks about every time she publishes a book. She feels like people are going to realize that she's a fraud. Mhm. You know, Oprah Winfrey's talked about it. Leonardo da Vinci actually talked about it. So he felt like he hadn't lived up to his potential. Yeah. He was saying you know. Right. How many years later are we still just mesmerized by the things that he created? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's phenomenal. Well, as we wind down this episode, I have one more question for you. Mhm. If someone listening recognizes in themselves this struggle with imposter syndrome, or maybe they've known it for a while and just, I don't know, have learned to just live with it or work around it or just get comfortable and accept things for the way they are. What is one practical step that they could take right now, today, to start shifting their thinking? So right now, looking at like we talked about before, starting to really list their accomplishments, and this is an ongoing list because you're going to add more as you're doing and looking with an eye towards. What would I think if I saw this list about someone else. Mhm. To get away from that. Oh well I'm going to dismiss it because XYZ. But looking at just as data. You know things are good at. What have you accomplished? What compliments or accolades or, you know, um, reviews. Have you received all of those things and start listing them and really looking at them with an eye towards if I saw this about someone else, what would I think of them? Hmm. To start to break that bias and also really starting to ask how do you define competence? Do you expect everyone else to be perfect? Do you expect everyone else to have all the answers you know? Do you expect everyone else to do everything? That's kind of like asking a baseball team, like one person, to play all the positions, you know? Yeah. And starting to change that double standard that people have struggled with. Imposter syndrome pretty much inherently have a double standard for themselves versus everyone else. I love that point because I don't know how many times I've heard and even said to people. when I hear somebody discounting who they are or why they're not qualified to do something or why they I mean, I'm an entrepreneur and I have other people who want to create the time, freedom and financial freedom for themselves that step in to this business and get licensed to work with me. And then I have people who want to go that route, and they have every reason in the book of why they can't or why they shouldn't. So so they start discounting themselves in every way, shape and form. And I have said to people, and I have heard a million times over in different kind of talks, conferences, things I've been out. Would you say that to your friend if your friend called you right now and said all the things to you that you're saying to yourself, what would you say to them? And that's really what it comes down to, right, is you have a framework for taking people through that process, Like you said, writing down your accomplishments. So you have to stare them in the face, so to speak, and then work through everything that's around. Why? Why? With that list, you still think somehow you're unqualified, you're undeserving, or people are going to realize you're a fraud and boot you right out the door, tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, you don't really belong here. We made a mistake, right? Yeah. Um, Shelly, I've loved this conversation. I think the work you do is so important, especially in the internet age, where it's so easy to see a million examples of people that we think are more accomplished than us, or get tied up in the people. And the unfortunate side of social media where people are getting torn down for stepping out and stepping into their calling. And so you think, oh, I don't want those kind of comments in my section, or I don't want people thinking that of me. Right. And and for those reasons, I think that what you do is vitally important across the board. Um, and in in summary, what you've said today is so powerful because this isn't just an emotional thing. It's a practical thing. It's a real life, everyday thing that without understanding it, without working through it, without finding that value in who we are and that confidence in how we're qualified and the way that we show up into the into the world, the world is going to miss out on so much. It's not just us, it's everybody around us that cares about us. It's our communities who will miss out because we get sick. We get paralyzed behind imposter syndrome and thinking we don't belong and all the reasons why. And so to kind of tie this together, confidence. It's about decision making. Decision making is about growth, and that growth creates freedom and dignity. Whether you're talking about your finances in the world that I work with people, when you're talking about taking that next promotion or improving the relationships in your life, whatever the different topics are that you help your clients work through when it comes to their imposter syndrome, everything gets stuck and can't follow that trajectory from confidence to decision making to to growth, and then that freedom and dignity that we're looking for. So when we're talking about imposter syndrome, we're not just talking about mindset, we're talking about legacy. What we're able to create, the difference we're able to make, and the things we're able to leave behind. For those women who are following in our path to make sure the opportunities are there for them because of what we did every single day. So, Shelly, thank you again for being here. If you'll take a minute and maybe just leave one last thought with people and then also share how they can find you, how they can get in touch with you, and and the offer that you have available for the listeners. Thank you. I think what I'd really like to impress upon people is don't believe everything you think and feel. A belief is just a thought that you've had over and over and over again, but it doesn't necessarily make it true. And while that's valuable information to have your feelings and thoughts, we also need to stop and turn the table and look on the other side. And the easiest is the litmus test of if this was someone else, or would you say that to your friend? Or would you let your friend say that to you? Those pieces. Because as smart as we can be as humans, we also have a lot of bias and the subconscious can really, really play havoc in there. But no matter how long we struggle with things, we always have the ability to change. Your brain is very plastic. Rewiring it is very possible. And it doesn't take nearly as long as people think that our habits. Like you said, the actions, the habits and the actions are really critical towards that. And as far as looking me up, I'm on Instagram at hey Shelley Martinez, not a ton with that. My website is Shelley Martinez. Com. S h l l e y. Martinez. Martinez. And I do have a free gift for people who see themselves in this conversation and can relate to it, which is called the Imposter breakthrough. And it's just a small guide to get people started with some additional techniques and skills to be able to really reframe and regulate and start to rewire the way that their nervous system and their brains are responding to things. and I think you'll have a link for that in the show notes. So yes, we will. For your website, everything, we'll have those in the show notes for people to get. Um, I'll also put them on my social media as I put some tidbits out about this episode, maybe teasing it before it drops. And then of course, um, you know, after it releases as well. So you'll definitely be able to find connections for Shelly everywhere you look for this podcast. And if this episode spoke to you, I want you to do one thing today. I want you to take five minutes and write down three pieces of evidence that prove you're more capable than you give yourself credit for. It can be as simple as, I am great at folding and putting away the laundry when I do it, which that'll be my thing. I'm not great at Shelly. Oh, I hate bullies. Yeah. Especially sheets. Yeah, whatever it is, it can be the simplest of things. If that is what you can hold on to. Then start there. Three simple pieces of evidence that prove that you're capable and build on that. Because the truth is, you are not behind your becoming. If you love this episode, I'm going to ask you to share it with a woman you know who might be struggling with imposter syndrome, who just needs to hear something that tells her a little different than what she might be telling herself. And of course, you can follow me on Instagram at Natalie Kime, where we can help build your confidence and your financial plan. You're welcome to reach out and book a call with me. There's a link in the show notes to reach me as well. And in closing, y'all, I just want to say stop playing small. You weren't called to be small. You were called to build a big, beautiful life and a legacy that you're proud of. So until next week, protect your peace, protect your people, and protect your wealth.