45: Making sure I don't get in the way

Episode 45: Deacon Paul explains his unusual work at Harvington Hall, offering prayer and pilgrimage alongside showcasing Catholic Tudor history for tourists.  After taking 15 years to discern the Lord's call, he shares how he understands his role as a deacon. 'God put me there to be the conduit for his love in that moment. My job is not to mess it up.'

Find out more

Harvington Hall

A new episode, a different conversation, every Wednesday!
Email me: theresa@KindsofCatholic.co.uk

Subscribe to receive our newsletter and be part of the All Kinds of Catholic Community: Click here

On Facebook, Instagram, Bluesky X/Twitter @KindsofCatholic
Find episode transcripts: https://kindsofcatholic.buzzsprout.com

The podcast is kindly supported by the Passionists of St Patrick's Province, Ireland & Britain and by CAFOD.

Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways, we're living our faith today. Pope Francis has used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. That's an image that has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. 

Hello, listeners. Just before we get into this week's episode, I want to thank a listener who got in touch with some feedback. The feedback says, It's wonderful to listen to different Catholic people talking. So many of them so different in so many ways from me, but that's what I love. Hearing how different people find God in their lives is immensely inspiring. I do receive feedback from listeners sometimes and I'm always grateful. So consider whether there's something you might like to say and send me some feedback. You can email me or you can text the program. Now, today's episode certainly has something for any history buffs among listeners. Listeners, thanks for tuning in today. I'm joined by Deacon Paul, who is another Deacon from the Birmingham Archdiocese. You might have heard Deacon Mark a few episodes back. Now we've had a little preliminary conversation, and I can tell you listeners there's a lot to talk about. So let's see which strands the Holy Spirit brings to the forefront now in our conversation. Welcome, Deacon Paul. 

Thank you, Theresa, and I look forward to our time together. 

You just mentioned before we began recording that we are thinking about the fifth anniversary of COVID. Why don't we start there with what COVID was like? Were you already a deacon before the time of COVID, and what difference did that make? 

I was. I was ordained in 2015, I’m a deacon in Worcester, in the parishes of Saint George and Our Lady Queen of Peace. Yes. None of us could go to Mass for that period of time which seemed like ages, but it was in fact only three months that we weren't allowed in church. But one of the rules was that it was only the priest that was allowed in church. And for me, who has my office for my work at the presbytery, who has my ministry in the church, not being able to be in the church was an enormous blow. Holy Week is a time when the ministry of deacon comes to the fore. From Palm Sunday right the way through to Easter Sunday, the deacon is right at the heart of the liturgy, and we weren't allowed in. I think it's fair to say that that was the grumpiest I have ever been. When we were allowed to come back to the church, one of my responsibilities in the parish was to make sure that everything was ready, that we had our separation, that we had our checklists, that we had our gel. The first time I went in, I came through the back door and onto the sanctuary, and I wept like a baby because I was in the presence of the Lord. However much my prayer life had fulfilled me, my life with other Catholics who were also away from the church, actually being able to be in front of the Lord, it certainly reinforced everything about me that meant that I could then journey on through that difficult period, helping people along the way, knowing that I was back in the presence of the Lord. So it was that time when all of a sudden, parishes discovered how to use Facebook or Zoom even livestream companies. I was, for want of a better phrase, webmaster of the parish. And there was a joyful moment when, as people came through with their comments as to where they were coming from and who they were praying for, people were watching my parish from every continent of the world.

What you shared about being able to come back onto the sanctuary after not being in church, there's something beautiful about that which a lot of people will understand. And yet it's strange, isn't it? Because on the one hand, we think of God as being everywhere, in us and all around us, and yet there is something about physically being on the sanctuary in the church where you belong that that is very, very meaningful to us. But strangely, at the same time, we began to find God on the internet in a way that I'm sure for many people was a first, and has, as you say, stayed with us in some ways. It's been a strange process.

It has. It's broken down a number of barriers but it's also enabled us to reflect upon that which is integral to us. And I think it's a reminder to us that it was us Catholics who were deeply respectful of the need to ensure that the virus was contained but were pushing for us to return to church because of that relationship between Christ, His church, His people, but also the building. But one of the most humbling moments is when I'm closing the church at night. Close all the doors, switch the lights off, and there is the flicker of the candle to show that Jesus is present. 

Now out of COVID, I understand something else good happened for you. You made a really good connection that has lasted. Tell us a bit about that. 

Well, that's my work in Spain. Now I'm not a fluent Spanish speaker. I do a little bit of practice every day. During lockdown I was asked by a friend of mine, who's a priest on the Costa Del Sol, to help with a project. I was with him every day at morning prayer where his parish would come together for prayer, and I would ask for a prayer, write it in Spanish, and he would acknowledge my presence on Facebook and so on, and we got to know each other. He was involved with the youth ministry who were planning to have a pilgrimage to the Holy Land but, of course, it was cancelled. So they had a virtual pilgrimage. Each day would involve scripture reading, reflections, talks about life in the Holy Land and then there'd be a little bit of a quiz at the end. So then they did a Camino pilgrimage, and then Lourdes - and they did five or six. They decided that they were going to do an English version. So I spent a magnificent period of time during lockdown dubbing all of these videos into English. But that was wonderful and that has led to a great relationship with him and his parishioners so that whenever I go to Spain it is wonderful to be amongst the people there. To the extent that I'm helping an American who is coming to the faith, who his Spanish is not so good. It's part of what I see as the deacon's role as filling the gaps. It's being very conscious of the role of the Holy Spirit within my ministry, and very importantly, not getting in the way. 

That's a very interesting strand that's come out of just building friendship with someone. Now I know that you have a number of responsibilities in the diocese, and one of them is this Harvington Hall. Tell us a bit more about Harvington Hall for people who aren't local and don't know.

The House Of Secrets. If you haven't been then I would encourage everybody to come to Harvington Hall. Its biggest secret is that it has the most priest hides of anywhere in the country. Seven priest hides. So it's a Grade 1 listed building in the North Worcestershire countryside. So it's a house built in 1578 by Humphrey Packington who was a Catholic. He was a recusant. He did not attend the service for the Church of England. That meant he was breaking the law and so he would have been fined on a regular basis. More importantly to the history of the church, it was also a house where priests were based. And those hides would have been there to ensure that the priests would be able to be safe should the pursuivants, those who were seeking to find priests, were searching the premises. Some of them were basic but the most ingenious ones were almost certainly the work of Saint Nicholas Owen, the Jesuit carpenter saint. But one of the fascinating things about it, it's owned by the archdiocese. I think it's unique in that it's a house that is owned by one of our dioceses which is a tourist location. We have our daily tours. People can come visit the house; the aspects of Tudor living, some magnificent wall paintings, but it's also a place of pilgrimage. We have the parish church just across the road working with us. But we also have our Georgian chapel in the grounds of the Hall where there is the Blessed Sacrament during the summer. So people can come and pray at the Hall every day. But also in the house itself, there are two chapels. There is a hiding place for the Mass stuffs, the chalices, so that they could be squirrelled away. We host an annual pilgrimage which is always held on the first Sunday of September. People are welcome into the grounds for a Mass as a reminder of the work of the martyrs of England and Wales. During the Jubilee year, the Hall is a place of pilgrimage, and so it will be a special Mass - the archbishop is presiding. It is a wonderful place of pilgrimage. It's a place of worship. It's a place of history. It's a place of tourism, but it's also a place of community and education. The Hall can accommodate school trips. We have a great team of volunteers who have worked in education. We are a very small, independent sector place. We're not part of something like the National Trust. It's the responsibility of the archdiocese to look after the Hall. It is an absolute privilege for me to be the person asked by the archbishop to be ultimately responsible for the Hall, but I could not do it on my own. I have a magnificent, very small team of staff. I have to go on record to say that we would not be able to open our door without our magnificent volunteers. 

You've piqued my interest, Deacon Paul. So I'll put a link to Harvington Hall in the episode notes so people can follow-up. But I think you also have a history festival coming up?

We do. This will be the third year of our history festival based upon Tudor history. So this year the history festival is from Wednesday, the 23rd to Sunday 27th July. We have 18 talks from eminent historians on all aspects of Tudor life. 

Great. I wanted to find out a bit more about your own faith journey, Deacon Paul. So I thought a good way into that might be to combine it with talking about Lent, actually, because we're in Lent now. And I'm wondering if there's a difference between how you mark Lent now that you're a deacon with how you marked Lent before you became a deacon. 

Yes. So I think one of the key differences between my Lenten observance before ordination and afterwards is that role of authority that comes with being a deacon. It's an authority which isn't lording it over others but it's given to us by God to witness to the faith and to support people in their own journeys of faith. So Lent is a time where those who are discerning whether they are to join the church at Easter are coming up to that period of final decision-making. One of the privileges that I have is to support them through my words, my pastoral support, my actions, making sure that I am not a hypocrite. That's the key thing that Jesus didn't like. But one of the other things which I find so important is the Stations of the Cross, to be able to walk the road of witness with Jesus. And the stations at St. George's, you actually at times, look into the eye of Jesus as he falls. A Lent which springs to mind for me is one when I left local government. I used to work in local government for 27 years, man and boy. The one Friday, knowing that I would have to leave about half past five to prepare for Stations of the Cross at 6pm. At about half past five, the chief executive came to me and said, I need to speak to you urgently. Ten minutes later, I walked out of there and I had to go to church to lead the Stations of the Cross, thinking I could be out of work in four weeks' time. And that Stations of the Cross revealed to me that if we trust implicitly in the Lord, He will care for us. We may not know what journey we are going on. We may not necessarily like the journey. During that time, I had great ordeal, but what came out of it was inspired by the Holy Spirit because I'm now doing what I am doing in the diocese. It is the greatest privilege. I give thanks to God for that. 

That's really lovely, Deacon Paul. While you were speaking about Lent, I was going to say, where have you experienced the love of God in your own life? And you've kind of answered that with speaking about, you know, finding a career move thrust upon you. 

But I do see the love of God in so many things. It's a key aspect of my prayer life, seeing that which is around me in the natural world, in my family, and so on. But it's also in my ministry. Part of the great joy that I have is that in wearing my collar for my work, as well as my ministry, I walk from home to the office or I walk to the train station. And that means that I encounter people in a way which others may not be able to do so. It's, Hello, or a quizzical look. Sometimes it's a twenty minute conversation. I can remember I was once walking along the River Severn on the way home. There was somebody who at the end of a twenty minute conversation said, I am an atheist, but you've got me thinking. Last summer, the football competition, a guy who had obviously had one drink too many for normal social behaviour, and he was looking for a taxi in the street. And he saw me and he came up saying, I don't believe in anything. I said okay. And he said, But what do you think the score is gonna be in the semifinal? I said, Well, if we're positive about this, and then he said, What's the score gonna be? I said, one nil to England. And he said, Fantastic. Should we pray for that? And I said, No, we won't pray for that because there are two teams playing football, and they're all made in the image and likeness of God. And he said, Yeah, but can we pray for my dad? He's got cancer. He's been given six months to live, and I don't know what to do. We had ten minute conversation in the street. A minute before I walked along, he was in despair about his dad. There is so much love from God, and that's part of what I say about making sure I don't get in the way. God put me there to be the conduit for his love in that moment. My job is not to mess it up. 

Thank you, Deacon Paul. Now I wanted to ask you a bit about synodality, which you've introduced yourself by talking about encounter, actually. I don't know if you feel comfortable talking about women deacons but listeners will be interested. What do you think? 

All in the hands of the Holy Spirit. 

Indeed. 

There are theological arguments one way or another. What I have learned in my life is if it is the will of the Holy Spirit, it will happen. If it isn't, then it won't. If it does happen, then I will welcome women deacons with open arms. 

Thank you. Those are those are well chosen words. I agree with you. Part of the Synod is about trying to discern what the Holy Spirit is leading the church towards, not what we ourselves might wish for. And it might not be what we wish for, but of course, we do have to get out of the way of the Holy Spirit. 

Oh, absolutely. The Synod demonstrates that, for me, that whole aspect of ensuring that voices are heard right from the grassroots. And the way in which Pope Francis has encouraged that bottom up approach has had significant implications for the way that our archdiocese looks at the future. Like many dioceses, we face the scenario where there are fewer priests. Priests are often required to be parish priest of several churches and often are called to be parish priests earlier in their ministry than previously. We have clustering and closure of churches and so on. The instinct from a clerical perspective would be to do like the imperial civil servants of the old days of - get a map out and say, that boundary goes there, that boundary goes there, and that church closes. But within our archdiocese, it is much more in a synodal manner. Now I know that can bring frustrations but it's actually genuinely seeking the right solution for the local scenario. The clustering of parishes: what are the parishes that work well together? Which are the parishes which have not just a geographical proximity but also a natural fit in the way that they work. Where is the opportunity for people to come together to undertake all of the activities that a parish needs? What comes out of it is greater than the sum of the parts. The people in each parish have got an opportunity to reflect upon how the Church moves forward in their area. So that is synodality in action in our archdiocese. We pray that that will come to fruition. 

Thank you, Deacon Paul. I think listeners will be really interested in that. Hearing some practical implementation of the synodal way of being church, I think, is very encouraging. 

One thing I'd like to just pick up on is for those who are perhaps discerning the ministry of deacon. It's that question of quite what does a deacon do? What authority does a deacon have? Where does he sit within the church? With the re-emergence of the ministry of deacon from the Second Vatican council - it's only sixty odd years ago, so we're very young in terms of the ministry. We could talk from a, should we say, an academic or theological perspective for me, for those who are perhaps discerning, is to answer one question. Do you have a diaconal heart? A diaconal heart is one of service. And it's one of the great privileges of my ministry to be able to support families who are preparing for funerals, supporting families who are not regular Mass-goers. It's being able to give ourselves completely to these families that they can be supported, can help nurture their faith, to reenkindle it. That diaconal heart is one where we are called to serve. And so those who are discerning, take it to prayer, but also speak with somebody so that you can be guided. I am clear that God is calling so many to do work for him in family life, in parish life, in ministry. It’s said that it takes a village to enable a child to grow up. It takes a family, a parish, a diocese, a seminary to bring someone to ordination. It took me fifteen years or so to realise ultimately that my call was to the diaconate. I was one of those that Deacon Mark talked about having the fervour in seminary because I felt that I wouldn't have embarked on this journey if it wasn't the will of God. But for others, it is only as you go through the formation program that you get an appreciation of if God is calling you, and if so, for what. 

Thank you, Deacon Paul. Thank you. Listen, I've really enjoyed our conversation today. You brought together all the threads of your service as a deacon and in other parts of your life. So thank you for sharing all of that. I think there's lots there for people to reflect on. Thank you for giving me your time today.

Thank you, Theresa. It has been a wonderful opportunity for me. I've probably got more out of this than either you or your listeners. So thank you very much. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/Twitter, and Facebook accounts, @kindsofCatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.