Bonus Episode: The Pope who serves the moment

Bonus Episode: Previous guests from four continents share their appreciation for the legacy of Pope Francis in their own lives - and their hopes for the new pope. Lots of focus on the work of the Holy Spirit and a call for Catholic people to pray.

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Pray for one of the Cardinals

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Music: Greenleaves from Audionautix.com

Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro. My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today. I'm grateful for Pope Francis who used the image of a caravan. A diverse group of people, travelling together, on a sometimes chaotic journey together. And that image that Pope Francis gave us, has helped to shape this podcast. I hope you'll feel encouraged and affirmed and maybe challenged at times. I am too in these conversations. And if you're enjoying these conversations, it helps if you rate and review them on the platform where you're listening. Thank you. 

Well, listeners, welcome to this bonus episode of the podcast where we're responding to the death of Pope Francis and thinking about what our hopes are for the next pope. And I'm joined here by Peter who was my first ever guest on the podcast. So it'll be lovely to hear from you again, Peter. 

Thank you. 

And also Andy Drozdziak who is a freelance journalist and was also a guest on the podcast previously. It's gonna be really nice to hear your thoughts in this situation.

Thanks a lot, Theresa. 

And later in today's episode, you will hear from a couple of other previous guests as well. I'll introduce them when we get to them. So I wonder if we can start with you, Peter, because you happened to be in Rome last week. Tell us how that all came about.

Our plan to go to Italy, we started planning in October, because we were invited to Fiesta Signor, the Feast of the Infant Jesus in Venice. And we thought that we're going to Venice - we might as well go to Rome because it is Jubilee year. And so that was already the plan to do the pilgrimage, going to the Holy Door. We were aware of the Wednesday general audience. So we really wanted to catch a glimpse of the Pope as well on the Wednesday. And we heard the news of Pope Francis' death. We realised that on Wednesday, they're gonna transfer the body from Santa Martha to Saint Peter's Basilica, and then there's the viewing afterwards. We lined up for three hours just to see the Pope. I was thinking as I was approaching to see his body, ‘We came here with the hope to catch a glimpse of you in a general audience, but here we are coming to see you to bid our final farewell.’

It's wonderful that you were able to be there. It's a great blessing to have had that opportunity. And then, Andy, can we come to you, and can we begin to think about Pope Francis' legacy? What is it you're gonna think about when you think about Pope Francis?

 It was lovely to hear that about Peter. Something that really strikes me about Pope Francis is his attempt to really connect with ordinary people and especially those on the edges and the marginalised. You know obviously, I've written a lot about him but actually for me, I've often found that it's the images that are very striking that that we've used in the Universe where I used to work. I used to use a lot of the images. I'm thinking of the time when he literally went on his knees begging for peace to the Sudanese leaders. I'm thinking of the time where he embraced the gentleman with leprosy. These images really were an embodiment of his ministry and who he was.

I would say he also used imagery in the way he spoke too. You know? It's too trite to say that he used soundbites, but he had a really good turn of phrase that just captured things for people that I think was really useful to journalism too.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the one I was looking at before was, you know, Build bridges, not walls. Just encouraging that inclusivity. He talked a lot about the Holy Spirit. He talked a lot about mercy at a time where the world really needed to hear about mercy. And then if we think about this year, Jubilee Year is about hope in a time where we've still got the wars. We've got Gaza. We've got Ukraine. And he lived out those principles. And, you know, thinking about his emphasis on evangelisation, you know, he's always calling people to that personal encounter with Jesus, the living face of mercy.

And you mentioned the Holy Spirit there, and that made me think, because of Pope Francis bringing this idea of the Synod and listening to the Spirit and discerning where the Spirit's leading the church, I think we're all now talking about the conclave in terms of how the Holy Spirit is going to guide those cardinals. And I'm not sure we would have spoken about that so easily, so readily, without Pope Francis having schooled us in thinking about the church like this and thinking about the role of the Holy Spirit and not trying to lead everything ourselves, but rather see where the Holy Spirit is leading us. 

Absolutely. 

As part of this bonus episode, I spoke to Judy who was a recent podcast guest, Episode 43, and she is in America. 

You know, he was such a pastor. He was so pastoral. He really wanted to be so close to the people in the pews and the faithful community. He emphasised peace as that's the way we have to get through life. We have to be at peace with our neighbours, with our families. It's the way that we walk through this life together. Now of course the previous popes, we can start of course with John XXIII and Pacem in Terris - and they have in their own way been peace popes. All made statements about choosing peace, but Francis really ratcheted it up. Yeah. He he made it really clear. He was the guy. 

I understand what you're saying, of course, that and it's right that other popes too had said many of the same things. There's something about the way he communicated, what he really meant by living in peace, finding a way forward together. 

Just a reminder about the fact that he visited war torn areas, that he went there, put himself at risk, Central African Republic and other places of violent conflict. And also when he spoke, I think it was in terms of Ukraine, Francis said, quote, The gospel's bold prophetic message of peace, unquote, hinges on its most radical and challenging command to love our enemies, which is underscored in a prayer that Francis would say about Ukraine. Stop us, Lord. Stop us. And when you have stopped the hand of Cain, take care of him also. He is our brother. 

That is very powerful. Not many people can just get up there and witness to that for the whole world. We are deeply, deeply blessed to have had Pope Francis as our pope.

Well, he certainly just exuded both humility and humour. He was obviously such a humble man and but also so funny and so happy to smile and wanted to laugh with people and wanted to connect in that way. But, of course, he was also he was a really, really brilliant man. 

I think that's good to capture. It's not just that he fell back on being a warm personality. Actually, he had the theology connected as well. And we'll get on to think about who might be the next pope in a minute because we all are wondering how this work is gonna be taken forward without Pope Francis there. But first of all, Peter, I wonder if you might just tell us a little bit about Pope Francis' work through Laudato Si’. I know when we spoke before, that made a huge difference to your life and you've become a Laudato Si’ animator. His focus on the climate, creation, resonated with you from the work that you were already doing around supporting people in the Philippines affected by climate change. So tell us a bit more about the legacy of Pope Francis for you around that work. 

Yeah. If I speak of Pope Francis, Laudato Si’ would be the very first one that I would think of because it's really had a massive influence in me personally. Spiritually, the spirituality in it took it to the next level, and it widened my vision because, it's the whole ecology that is in crisis and then connected to human dignity that the first people affected by this crisis are the poor. So I really thank Pope Francis for that encyclical. It's really helped me in my personal ecological conversion. 

And that will resonate with lots of people. Listeners, I also spoke to Matthew who was a guest way back in Episode 6 of the podcast. Matthew has Nigerian heritage. 

Now talking about Pope Francis, it brings to mind the Parable of the Lost Sheep. The Lord said the shepherd left the rest of the 99 and went in search of the one sheep.

 And I think Pope Francis embodied that parable in a very deep way, especially for people at the margins. People who normally say, Who cares about me? I'm not - I'm just a number. I'm just in the dump site of the world. Nobody cares. When you hear Pope Francis talk about the prisoners, talk about migrants, people who left their home country for whatever reason, when you talk about - you're looking to Pope Francis, it's a struggle I must accept, you know, considering what the church stands for. He had to find a way to make room for people who don't fit into the categories of marriage. I see Pope Francis at the peripherals of our world today, gathering the people who arelost sheep. And it's a challenge to all of us, really, me in particular. It's not just people who I know, people who fit in. Some people don't fit in. Pope Francis reached out for them in ways that we can see very clearly. 

That's really insightful, Matthew. Thank you. Yes. So if we may just look ahead then to what we think is going to happen. I've heard lots of people say, and I would agree, that the Holy Spirit hopefully will be in charge of this process of finding the next pope and helping the cardinals choose the person who is right for the time. But let's just start with you, Andy. Amongst the cardinals, are there some thoughts around journalists in this country as to who we're thinking, or are people not wanting to think about it, not wanting to pre-empt a situation? Where would you stand on this?

For me, it's just prayer is really the key. We're talking about the Holy Spirit, and I think at this time, it's just a time of really calling on the Holy Spirit to bless the cardinals. This might not be the answer you wanna hear. I think it's really important that they are just prayed for. I mean, I'm involved in this initiative called praycardinal.com, and you actually are allocated a cardinal to pray for. And I've got the Buenos Aires one, Cardinal Poli, to pray for him so that his discernment will be really good and really be Spirit led. So that's really the focus. I saw the other day that what the church needs now is silence, prayer, and the Holy Spirit within this conclave and in the build up to it and within the conclave itself so that we can find the right successor. The successor the Holy Spirit wants to follow Pope Francis. That would be my take on it. 

I think that's a good take, and I think that's a great initiative, and I'll put a link for that in the episode notes for people. It's not too late for them to be allocated a cardinal, and absolutely prayer is the way we can all participate in this process. Peter, now I am going to ask you though about Cardinal Tagle of The Philippines. I think his name was mentioned in the previous conclave when Pope Francis was elected, although I might have that wrong now, my memory may not serve, because he's actually quite young isn't he relatively speaking? I know that he's very, very popular in the Philippines. What is your experience of him as a Cardinal for the Philippines, first of all, Peter? 

First of all, I just want to re-echo what you said that, actually, it's the Spirit who will be in charge.

We hear you.

 Personally, I haven't had much encounters with Cardinal Tagle. Of course, as a Filipino, we know him as a Archbishop of Manila and then later, Cardinal. And now he's the prefect of the Congregation of the Evangelisation of Peoples. Of course, we're very proud of that. But in the conclave, they first define what is the need of the church. The Holy Spirit will be there to guide them. It's the Holy Spirit who is really in charge. 

Well, listeners, you'll know by the end of this episode that all of my guests were not up to choosing the next pope themselves. All of them pointed to the Holy Spirit and mentioned the importance of prayer. So we are of one mind on that. No betting tips here, I'm afraid. But let's hear again from Judy. What are you thinking about the new pope? Do you know some of the American Cardinals? Do you have a view on them?

 I don't think it's gonna be someone from the United States, but what do I know? I think trying to guess who the next pope is gonna be is the most futile. I have met Cardinal McElroy, who's just been appointed to be the Archbishop of Washington, DC. I met him when he was Bishop of San Diego because he participated with the Catholic Nonviolence Initiative in our nonviolence conferences with the Vatican.

What kind of thing would you be hoping for from the next pope?

Gosh. More of the same. Right? Someone who's willing to speak out clearly on the issues. Francis was so clear about what's going on in Gaza because that's gonna just continue to be such a horrible tragedy, sin. I really hope the next pope is very clear on that. But, you know, to keep up this mantle of the synod. There was a lot of effort people put in to keep moving things ahead, and I really hope it doesn't stagnate or get pushed into a corner and forgotten. 

And in our conversation, I asked Matthew too about his hopes for the next pope. When pope Francis was being elected twelve years ago, there was a lot of talk then that maybe this time we'll have a pope from Africa. I wonder what you think about that. Is that something that you would really be hoping for, or is there something different you're looking for in in a new pope? Not that either of us will be in the decision making. It's in God's hands, I know. What are your thoughts about the journalists focusing on that?

I'm not one to make predictions about the next pope, but our faith teaches it is under the control of the Holy Spirit. And the only prediction I have to make is to pray that the Holy Spirit does what he does. I think popes serve moments. My daughter asked me a question two days ago when we were talking about this. Why do people have to keep choosing very elderly men who don't live so long afterwards? And I said, I have no answer for that. But there is something to say about experience, stability, and the church itself. The Holy Spirit give us the pope that will serve the moment. My prayer is for the pope for the moment. Coming from Africa, Africa has a lot to deal with. Africa is still settling in. I think it's only in Africa, maybe in other places, you see brand new churches being built. My experience in the UK is about modernisation of old churches. We talk about expansion. We talk about making it different. I'm not sure about any new church foundation being laid and being built from ground up, but Africa is still in that position. But I'm not holding my breath for an African pope at the moment.

I spoke to a friend this morning after Mass,from Zimbabwe. You were talking with your daughter. I was talking with this friend from Zimbabwe, and I was asking her about what she thought about a pope from Africa, and she said something similar to you. She said it's about for her who the person is. She wanted the next person to continue Pope Francis' work, and so it was more about who the person is than where they're from. 

I'm not sure the world, and I say the world because the Catholic church has no problem, but I'm not sure the world is ready for an African pope at the moment. But it's not me. It's the Holy Spirit. And Holy Spirit had taken on a whole lot of things, helped us through, if that happens. For instance, when Barack Obama was elected in the US as President, I left work that day early to come home and listen to his speech. I did just because I have to mark that the United States of America has crossed that Rubicon. He didn't have to do anything in particular, just because he's a black man. So I will be happy to see an African pope. There is more than just the ethnicity of the pope. I have to look beyond that. Yes. 

So we can see that some cardinals, of course, and many of them are much loved by the people they serve, and that's a wonderful thing in itself. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those people who love them and are appreciative of their service want to put them forward as pope. It is about who is the right fit for what the church needs now and who the Holy Spirit is pointing towards. 

I just read today that one of the cardinals, I can't remember who it was, had said in the build up to the conclave that they would spend the time getting to know each other a lot better because, you know, they haven't actually spent too much time as a group of cardinals yet together. A lot of them were appointed by Pope Francis. He just said that, We wanted to get to know each other and to develop those warm relationships. I'd like to think that that's a little bit of a fruit of what Pope Francis left. That he wanted to build up those warm Christ-centered relationships and modelled that very well. And then hopefully, out of those strong, good relationships, they'll feel ready to make that choice. 

I think you're right, Andy. I think it's good because, you know, if they are trying to choose the person who best meets the needs, they need to know each other. But also, I guess, being a cardinal is a pretty lonely vocation. Having each other, having built some friendships with each other during this time, that's also a great support for them in the future, whoever is the pope and is not the pope. Listeners I hope you've enjoyed this bonus episode. It's been great to bring you voices from four continents to talk about Pope Francis' legacy and our hopes for the next pope. And if you wanted to look back, I think I've mentioned the episode numbers for everybody except Andy, who was in episode 22. So special thanks to Judy and Matthew, who made some time at short notice to join me in a conversation. And thanks to Peter and Andy who were here just now.

Thank you. 

Thanks a lot, Theresa. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you. A new episode is released each Wednesday. Follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms. Rate and review to help others find it. And follow our X/Twitter, and Facebook accounts @kindsofcatholic. You can comment on episodes and be part of the dialogue there. You can also text me if you're listening to the podcast on your phone, although I won't be able to reply to those texts. Until the next time.