94: Work and Prayer: Brewing beer alongside the monks of Mount St Bernard Abbey

Episode 94 Peter shares his journey, via the Royal Navy and tax accounting, to running the brewery alongside Trappist monks and managing the abbey estate. He explains how he has adapted to working with the rhythm of monastic life, describing the monks as having a ‘more eternal concept of time’ than he was previously used to, especially at work. It’s fascinating to hear how commercial concerns and a life of prayer are balanced by the monastic community and Peter himself - and the opportunity for ‘soft evangelisation’ that brewing beer offers them.   

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Mount St Bernard Abbey

Mount St Bernard Trappist Brewery

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Transcript

You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro.  My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today.  Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good.  We are the times.  I hope you feel encouraged and affirmed and sometimes challenged as I am in these conversations.  Join our podcast community, get news and background information about the conversations and share your thoughts if you want to. You can get the newsletter and each episode straight to your inbox by going to allkindsofcatholic.substack.com and clicking on subscribe. It's free. That web address is in the episode notes too and I'd love you to draw closer to our community. Thank you.

Last chance listeners to join us on Saturday 21st March for our in-person event. It’s not too late to sign up if you want to come. The link is in the episode notes. That means that next week’s pod episode will be the edited version of the conversation I’m having with Helena Judd of Radio Maria England at our live event. Let’s get into today’s conversation.

Listeners, welcome to today's episode. I'm being joined by Peter. This is going to be a really interesting conversation because Peter works at Mount St Bernard Abbey and we'll hear more about that as we get on with the conversation. But welcome, Peter. 

Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

So maybe you just set the scene. I think listeners will be really interested to know more about what you're doing at the Abbey. But let's just think about you first. Are you someone who Catholic faith has always been important to or have you ebbed and flowed a little bit over the years. 

Yes. So I'm a cradle Catholic, I suppose you would say. Brought up going to church every week. Altar server for many years.  And it was something that was very integral, I suppose, to the way we were raised and our family and all the immediate family were practising. But I'd definitely say, which I think is very common - obviously, my faith has been tested over the years and it's definitely ebbed and flowed. Particularly in I suppose, young adulthood and twenties.  I mean, honestly, it still is a challenge, isn’t it? It's a daily challenge to connect with and try and live your faith.  I suppose I think of it quite often and perhaps this is an Irish Catholic thing. I feel guilty that I'm not a good Catholic and perhaps that's what makes me a good Catholic. I don't know. 

I think listeners will understand what you mean. Yes, absolutely. We feel slightly set up to fail in the practice of our faith and yet we know there's something good about keeping on trying and coming back and making a fresh start and that’s part of it. I'm putting it less well than you put it yourself. Tell us then about how you came to be at the Abbey then. I'm guessing you were perhaps already working in this field of brewing beer before you came to the Abbey, but maybe not. Explain to us how that happened. 

Yeah, so that’s a common assumption which I understand very well, but actually no. I had many, many different roles, wore many different hats.  After university, I joined the Royal Navy. That was cut short by injury, unfortunately. And then I went through a number of different things. The longest sort of role was I worked as a tax accountant, which was about as thrilling as it sounds.  I suppose probably I got into that for the wrong reasons. I got into that maybe to please other people rather than because it was something I wanted to do or that I was particularly good at, if we're being honest. But it sounded like a good job and it looked like a good job. And on the surface, I suppose everything would seem to be fine, going in the right direction in my life. But actually that wasn't the case. And I remember vividly waking up one morning and thinking, What am I doing with my life?  Why do I do this? Okay, I had a good salary and a house and a nice car in the drive, a much nicer car than I've ever driven since.  But it really didn't fulfill me in any sense of the word.  So I left that role and I started working in bars and restaurants. I did a lot in whiskey and bourbon in particular, because that was more of my passion in terms of alcohol at that point.  And I ended up running a bar in the Midlands. I was sort of looking for my next step, I suppose. And that would have been just prior to Christmas 2019. Then in early 2020, as it was the case for many people, the decision was made for me. I lost my role there, as many people in the hospitality industry did. I went back to just doing odds and ends to make ends meet. Then I was looking for a new role and this job came up to be a brewery assistant at Mount St. Bernard Abbey. I wasn't particularly, I was a little bit interested in beer and brewing at the time. I mean, more in the consumption of it, I should say, rather than in the intricacies of producing it and selling it and so on and so forth. Something about the role really intrigued me and my great uncle, he was a monk. And I'd spent some time in previous years at various monasteries. I particularly remember a great experience I had spending a week at Belmont Abbey. A Benedictine Monastery in Herefordshire, which was a wonderful retreat there.  And I liked the idea. I thought, I think I could certainly work at a monastery. So I applied. Didn't expect to get very far, but I thought if I get to interview, I thought, I've got a reasonable chance. And I got to interview and I came and I had a very nice experience with Father Joseph, Brother Mateus and Brother Robert at the time interviewed me, which I imagine can be somewhat intimidating to sit across a table from three monks in an interview in a monastery. And we came down and we saw the brewery afterwards and en route to the brewery, I was chatting, you know, to Father Mateus and Father Joseph about the various aspects of the role and their life here really. It was really intriguing to me. And I found out afterwards that actually they interviewed numerous people, but I was the only one who spoke to them in between the interview and coming down to look at the actual facilities. 

Wow. 

I think that went a long way. I think because growing up having a family member who was himself a monk and -  not here, I mean, completely different order - but just having a sense of, well, that to me was quite ordinary. To me, he was just my uncle. These are just normal people who chosen a very different way of life, I suppose, to what most people would consider. 

You can have a conversation with them and that'll be fine.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You can make jokes. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. You're, you're allowed to discuss the outside world and, and they have an understanding of things beyond, you know, these four walls and much greater understanding in many ways, or maybe greater insight than we might. And, yeah, lo and behold, I got the job and that was in October 2020. It was a part-time role at first.  I used to work here three days a week and I used to work at a different bar, two days a week. Then gradually I became full time in the brewery and then they asked me to run the brewery, which I was very happy to do. Then about a year after that, they asked me to help out in the estate as well, help running the buildings and the estate here. And then they asked me to run that. So now that's what I do now. I split my time between running the buildings and the estate in an operations capacity and running the brewery. Particularly the sort of commercial side, the sales side. I use the word commercial lightly. 

Yes. You see, I think people will find that really interesting. For listeners, Peter was saying before we began recording that you weren't sure there was much interesting about you, but I think listeners will be gripped actually to hear that you've come to work at the monastery in these circumstances and the way in which  you managed to shine at the interview, little did you know. That would be really interesting for people. Let's take the spotlight off you for a moment and think about the brewery itself. So for listeners who don't know about Mount St Bernard Abbey brewing beer. Tell us a bit about how that came about then. 

So the main income for the community was always provided by the farm from 1835, when the monks came and started the community. That was in many ways a profitable endeavour for many years, but by the time the turn of the century and into the 2000s, dairy farming in particular became less and less, I'd say profitable, even just sustainable. So that is a lot of effort for not much reward. So they ultimately took the decision to close the dairy farm in 2012. It took a number of years to wind down. Then they needed another source of income because the motto of the order here is Ora et labora, so it's work and prayer. You can't just live off charity. You need to actually do some work that provides for the community.  They explored many different options. The full name is Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance, locally known as the Trappists.  They are very famous for brewing beer, particularly on the continent in the low countries in Belgium and the Netherlands. So Father Erik was the abbot at the time. He's undertook a sort of exploratory mission with a number of the members of the community to visit some of these monasteries and in fact, other monasteries and Benedictine ones in France and Italy to learn about monastic brewing and the viability of it. I think what they liked was in particular was that it provides work for the community whilst also being a source of reasonable income. So it could involve a number of the community in the day-to-day operations. And ultimately they hoped, everything seemed to indicate there would be a reasonable income from that. So in 2018, the brewery was launched. And really we've just gone from strength to strength since then. We've got two beers now and we sell into, I think last time I counted, 23 countries. We are quite small by brewing standards and even by Trappist brewery standards. But we are growing slowly, organically, and really want, we would like to keep that demand above the production. Because as Father Joseph says to me, It's a monastery with a brewery and it should never become a brewery with a monastery. 

Thank you. That's really set the scene for people who weren't aware. That's great. Thank you. And just in case anyone's looking for the beer, just give the name out now for listeners.  

The beer is actually called Tynt Meadow. So we make two kinds, Tynt Meadow Ale, which is the dark, strong ale. And we make a Tynt Meadow Blonde, which is a lighter, sort of more bitter, hoppier beer.  The ale is 7.4%.  So quite strong, certainly in this country.  And the blonde is 5%. But they're named after the original parcel of land, which the monks settled on, Tynt Meadow, rather than the monastery itself, which they had to build. 

That's good. Thank you. Just two quick notes here listeners. First of all, Tynt Meadow, is T-Y-N-T in case you're looking for it. And secondly, if you want to hear more about the alcohol levels particularly, that is something we talk about again later in the conversation. So keep listening. Just to say, I first, I don't know if I met you exactly, Peter, but I saw you, I saw you working at a brewery tour, a day that I came along to. So you do have brewery tours for anyone who's lucky enough to be within reach of the Abbey in Leicestershire, I would strongly recommend such a thing. You explained so well the kind of process of brewing the beer and being in that environment. But I was also struck by the way you spoke about the community of monks while we were attending that day. Because there's one sense in which you could think of going on a brewery tour as a kind of commercial thing and perhaps a bit flippant, you know.  I'm guessing that people that come on those tours are not all necessarily Catholics or Christians but might actually be interested in beer. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's a real mixed bag. 

Yeah. Yeah.  And yet you spoke with great respect and a sort of, what could I say? A kind of real connection with the monks of the Abbey and what their lives are about and trying to be aligned to that in the way you spoke about the brewery and the operation, which can lean towards being commercial, as you indicated there. So how do you find it then working alongside the monks? 

On the whole, you know, it's wonderful.  I suppose it took me a, I don’t know if I'd say a long time, but certainly a good amount of time to realise that you have to adjust your manner of working to their way of working. They won't come to your level. So I came in, you know, with, Oh, I was so enthusiastic about the role, all these great ideas. And I wanted to have another beer and wanted to do all these new sales initiatives and actually very quickly realised, well, the answer more often than not is, Okay, well, we'll think about that. Importantly, we'll pray about that and we'll let you know. And maybe a week later you might say, Have you had a chance to think about that, to pray about that? Not yet, but we will. I like to say personally, I don't know if the monks agree with this, but coming as a lay person, I say that the monks have a more eternal concept of time. Things move at the pace that they want them to, not the pace you necessarily want them to. So that's an important thing to keep in mind. And then really, when we talk about commercial aspects, it can be a tightrope. I do see my role to push them a little bit in that. If I go too far, then I get told. And more often than not, I land on the right side of the tightrope, but sometimes I push it too far and I get pushed back in a polite, perfectly understanding way. But I do see that as my role to just push that a little bit because this place is so important to so many people as I've learned over the years.  And I certainly count myself as one of those now having worked here for getting on six years. There was for a time a real risk that it might not be here, from a purely financial point of view.  And that would be really sad. There's other risks in terms of are there enough people who want to be monks? Are there enough people who want to come and visit? Those things I can't do as much about, but I could certainly make sure that financially they were able to maintain the Grade Two listed buildings and feed and clothe anyone who wants to be a monk. So I really, I see that as my role. But it's important as well at the same time to not lose what - when we're talking about sending the beer out into the world - we try and send it imbued with a little bit of the essence of this place. I would refer to it as almost a soft evangelisation.  It's important not to lose that and to have an authenticity to that.  So sometimes I rein myself in. I don't have to take it to the community for them to push me back.  I find the sweet spot myself. 

Okay. And I know when I visited the abbey previously - I remember as a child visiting the Abbey actually and the monks had a pottery at that time. And the shop, we used to go on a school trip there and we would all look forward to going into the shop. The shop is bigger now. We used to buy little bits of pottery and things. I mean, my goodness, I'm talking ashtrays, the sort of thing you would never bring home to your parents now, but we did in those days. It was all very acceptable to buy an ashtray for your mum and dad made by the monks.

Wow.

But the shop used to be open only around, obviously, the timetable of the monk's life of prayer. And I'm guessing that there's still a way in which you work in the brewery that works around the monk's prayer life. And I wonder how you found that coming from a kind of a very different working environment. I'm guessing hospitality can sometimes be pretty full on for long hours, but actually there is a sort of natural pausing built into a working day for the monks at least. I mean, maybe you don't follow those timings so closely, but how do you -?

Overall, I find it very nice. And just to say about hospitality, I mean, I was working 14 hour days quite regularly. And I remember one of the first weeks or certainly first months I was working here and I was here about half seven and Brother Martin came into the brewery and he saw me and said, What are you doing here? He said, Go home. You don't need to do this. Come back to do it tomorrow. And I thought, Gosh, you know, markedly different. I experienced too having worked as an accountant where if they saw you there at half seven at night, they'd be like, Oh good, that's a plus. Yeah. And having worked in hospitality where obviously the needs must a lot of the time. That was a really interesting moment that I still remember vividly. In terms of the day to day operations  the monks have two work periods, one in the morning after their breakfast. So start work around 9am and that runs up to sext, so they work till midday. And then in the afternoon, they'll work from 2.30 through till 4.30. Occasionally, depending on what's going on in the monastery, you can have permission to work up until 5.25 really. So we have to work around those periods. Also, even if it's not about monks working in the brewery, that always gives me a pause in the middle of the day where the monks are having their lunch and their rest. You know, they're up at 3.15 in the morning. So they have a period after lunch between one and two o'clock where they, generally speaking, not always, but generally they have either a quiet time or a siesta. That always gives me that period in the middle of the day where I almost know I'm not going to be interrupted. I can have a bit of quiet time. Whether that's sit at my desk and just go through some things or just reflect a little bit about the day and what's coming up. So I do really appreciate that. It's nice to be able to go into the church at any time. I mean, how many people, how many practising Catholics can say they have that?  When I used to work in Birmingham city centre, I used to try and make Mass at St. Chad’s Cathedral in the middle of the day, but that's not always well understood, I suppose, by your boss. You say, I'm just going to pop out for daily Mass, is that alright? Whereas, you know, here I could go into the church and have five, 10 minutes of just saying some prayers, light a candle, even just sit and have some quiet reflection. That helps a lot. It's not necessarily about attending the services, which I suppose I thought when I started here, I thought, I'll be attending services all the time, but actually I have a set amount of work that I need to get done in a set amount of time. And it doesn't always work like that. There's something to be said, I suppose, as well about the rhythm, the daily rhythm of the life. And I think the certainty of that, the bells go and you think, Oh I know what time it is. I know what's going on. There's something quite nice about that. Something that's been lost in most daily life. 

I think there's something about it just bringing you back to God, just at little moments during the day when you might otherwise power on through and become very caught up in worldly stuff. 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I know you can set alarms on your phones and do all these sorts of things at your fingertips now. But for example, when the 12 o'clock bell goes, you know, if I'm at my desk, it's just a little reminder. Ideally, I'd like to say that I'd say the Angelus every time. Honestly, I don't do that. Even just having that reminder of, it's 12, even if I don't necessarily have the time or perhaps even if I’m honest, the inclination, to say the Angelus at that point. It just reminds you to take a moment and think and maybe just say a quiet prayer quickly. And it is helpful in that respect. 

And the monks themselves, obviously you're working alongside them. Do you find over the years that you have conversations about life, the universe and everything and you know, where the world is going and where you're going and things more broadly than the brewery. And has that been interesting? Do the monks bring something to your way of thinking about where you're going? 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, now you ask the question, I'm thinking about it. I suppose I don't think about these things, but yeah, I mean, I have very close relationships with a number of the community, some of whom I work closely with and others who I don't work closely with, but I see and always stop and have a chat. It's nice to be able to - I was reading a part of St. John's gospel a few years ago. I didn't quite understand. I saw Father Terence here walking past my office one day and I thought I’m going to ask him. So we just in the middle of one afternoon we had quite an in-depth philosophical, theological discussion about a very nuanced point of the gospel. How many people can do that in their workplace? That's quite interesting. But I mean, on a personal level, it’s wonderful to work somewhere where you feel genuinely valued, but also cared - as if people do care about if you've been away for a week, Oh, did you have a nice time? You know, how’s your family? These kinds of things, rather than just Monday morning, right? What's on the agenda for this week? What are we doing? When are we doing it? Which I understand that the modern way of working, it’s not always possible and that's not necessarily come from a place of ill will or intention.  The pace is so frenetic, isn't it? It's nice here to be able to have those small moments. Now don't get me wrong, some days I've got loads and loads and loads to do. You get stopped and you get into a conversation. Oh gosh, I've just spent 20 minutes there talking where I'm going to have to really power through the next hour now. But it's definitely overall a massive positive impact on my life. 

I think listeners will be really interested to hear about that. This episode is going out in Lent. Is there anything different about the way the monastery works during Lent? I mean, do the monks give up alcohol during Lent or anything?

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with that one. We have a section in the brewery, what we call the community beer, and that is for the monks. They have that on, primarily it's on Sundays, it can also be on feast days, birthdays. Brother Martin's in charge of that, so he'll take that to the refectory to have with their lunch. But not during Lent. No, that's not the case during Lent. Yeah, I would say I'm not quite so disciplined myself. There's also retreats as well. There’ll be a retreat in the week this podcast goes out, actually. The monks will be on a silent retreat then. So they won't engage with work or they won't engage with me unless obviously they have to. So there's moments like that. And we also in Easter week, we don't plan any work during that week as well. Cause obviously Holy week is quite intense. So the week after we try and ensure that we keep things to a minimum. Even if the monks aren’t involved, we try and ensure that the work in the brewery is kept to a minimum. So as not to be disruptive, which is always a balance here as well. 

Having a modern workplace alongside or within the abbey and how you make that work, that's really interesting. If we can just return to you a little bit then Peter, I often ask guests about whether there's prayers or practices or a piece of scripture that they keep coming back to that stays with them and that's important to them. So I wonder if there's anything for you? You've given us a little bit of insight into prayers and practices there actually, but I wonder if there's something for you that is your go-to that supports your faith. I mean, you're surrounded by really wonderful support for your faith as you've described, by working at the abbey. But maybe there's something that just comes to your mind. 

I suppose there's a few different pieces of uh scripture that I sort of ruminate on. When I think back to my younger days when I was in the Navy in particular, when I would be woken in the morning for what we would call beasting. Whatever the decision of the staff was that day, but something physical, early hours in the morning, quite often in my head I used to say to myself, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, repeatedly. I suppose in my daily work, I quite often think of, I think it's in Corinthians about running the race and racing to win. And I mean that in a - I'm not an overly competitive person - not at all in fact, but I think maybe it comes back down to the old adage of, if something's worth doing it’s worth doing well. So I try and always give my best.  I think I've been given a great opportunity here and I think that my talents suit it. And I would be remiss to not always do the best that I can. So I'm trying to remind myself of this in particular. As I mentioned before we started, because we're, I'm expecting another child shortly. So with two young ones in the house, it's going to be a bit tight on sleep. I got through it before. I'm going to get through it again but still going to really try hard to always give my best and just make the most of the opportunity that ultimately God has given me to help others. That's certainly how I see it. 

I'm thinking now at least you'll have an opportunity to take a siesta maybe when the monks are having their little sleep after lunch. 

I have a room in the monastery picked out and I will tell no one where that is. I will not be found for certainly 45 minutes every day, is my plan. 

Great strategy. Listeners, this is the bit where we came back to talking about the alcohol levels in the beer particularly.

I suppose something that comes back, which the monks are very mindful of, is the whole ‘monks making alcohol.’  That's part of the decisions behind making strong alcohol, is because actually the abuse of alcohol is generally around cheaper, more readily available, lower ABV beers.  We're making beer here that - there's a Belgian Trappist saying that beer should be liquid bread, not coloured water. It's life sustaining. It's beer to be contemplated with, beer to sip and savour. That's really what comes back to my point about the soft evangelisation. I think that's a really important point. And I understand why people press us on that, but we are very mindful of it.

I think you addressed that quite well on the brewery tour also actually. There's something very good for us about, you know, working with plants that grow and water and not a load of chemicals, but just natural things to make something that we can enjoy. 

And this is where a lot of popular societal thinking is going now, isn't it? Towards the practices that monks have been doing for 1500 years. You know, living off the land, living simply, eating real food and making things with your hands. And these are really core tenets of monasticism. I had an interesting email a few years ago now from a lady in America who's working on PhD who wanted to explore why young people were drawn to these ideas, but in place of the religious element, shall we say, it was now spirituality. They wanted to be spiritual. They wanted to have a spiritual experience. They didn't necessarily want to be religious or be defined by having to go to church seven times a day like the monks do here. I think that's really interesting actually. 

It is interesting. I bet the monks have plenty of insight on that if asked. 

And I suppose that there's an important point.  I touched on it earlier about we should treasure places like this because there's no certainty that it will be here forever. Obviously we hope and pray that it will, but we should be very grateful that we've got a monastery in this corner of England. The only Trappist monastery in England. There’s only three in the UK. We should treasure it and we should do things to help ensure that it's here. We're coming up for a 200 year anniversary. I'd like it to be here for another 200 years. 

Amen to that. 

And you never know who you might meet and who you might -  I kind of joke about it on the brewery tours that I do. Anyone thinking of becoming a monk or knows anyone? You know, everyone always like kind of chuckles. But I don't know, you never know. It might sow a seed in someone. They might mention it to someone who mentions it to someone. They pass a beer on and they look at the website and then they think, Oh, they have a guest house, I could come and visit. And you don't know what it's going to lead to. 

Certainly engaging with people has got to be beneficial.

Exactly. Yeah. And the monks here are very mindful of that, I would say. People get tied up in the numbers. You know, all these, there used to be 90 monks here, now there's only 15. But you could have a very, very vibrant community with 15 monks and you could have a very not vibrant community with 40 monks. So it’s not necessarily always about the numbers, it's about the quality of the community there. I'm no expert on to speak about, but we have a lot less monks here than they used to be, but we've still got a very, a very knowledgeable, a very practical skills-based community. I think it's still attractive for younger people who are minded to test their vocation. 

Listen, thank you, Peter. That's been a wonderful conversation. And for listeners, I'll put some links in the episode notes to the brewery and the abbey and things so people can follow up and have a closer look. So thanks for spending some time in your working day to talk about your faith and how your faith is, I don't know, supported by working in the monastery or alongside the monks who live in the monastery. I think that's going to be an episode that will really touch people's hearts, give people some encouragement that good work is being done still by monks and lay people working together. This is very hopeful for the future. So thanks so much for sharing some thoughts with us.

Yeah, my pleasure. And I suppose on that note, I'd like to say I'm always encouraged myself by people who come and they visit or they enjoy the beer and send an email. And just say thanks for the good work that we're doing, that really picks me up when I need it. 

Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday and you can follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms.  Rate and review to help others find it. You can also follow us on social media @KindsofCatholic. And remember if you connect with us on Substack, you can comment on episodes and share your thoughts and be part of the dialogue there.  Until the next time.