95: I went in with a plan but Lent this year has called me out

Episode 95 This week’s episode was originally recorded live with an audience at our very first in-person event. Helena shares how she grew up, with Polish heritage in America, married a British man and moved to England with a young family. The world of theatre and particularly drama ministry is huge in Helena’s life. She describes ‘a pivotal moment’ when the Holy Spirit was at work, leading her to bring together young people with and without disabilities in a robot-themed dance performance. Currently working with Radio Maria England, Helena explains other ways in which God has undone her plans, sometimes painfully. She feels He is telling her, ‘You cannot decide everything. You've got to let some of it be mine.’ 

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Transcript

 You're listening to All Kinds of Catholic with me, Theresa Alessandro.  My conversations with different Catholics will give you glimpses into some of the ways we're living our faith today.  Pope Leo, quoting St Augustine, reminds us, Let us live well and the times will be good.  We are the times.  I hope you feel encouraged and affirmed and sometimes challenged as I am in these conversations.  Join our podcast community, get news and background information about the conversations and share your thoughts if you want to. You can get the newsletter and each episode straight to your inbox by going to allkindsofcatholic.substack.com and clicking on subscribe. It's free. That web address is in the episode notes too and I'd love you to draw closer to our community. Thank you.

Before we get started this week listeners, I just want to let you know that there is a mention of baby loss later in today's conversation,  just in case it's important for you to be prepared for that. 

Listeners, thanks for joining the podcast today. I'm being joined by Helena.  This episode is a special one because it's been made live with an audience at our first ever in-person event. [Applause] So it's very exciting to be here with people who have been listeners and guests of the podcast for some time with you, Helena.  Let's see where this conversation takes us and let's find out how you're living your faith today.  Welcome. 

Thank you, Theresa. So first of all, as listeners will have spotted, even if they didn't know you already, you've got an American accent. 

I do!  It's so American. 

So tell us about then, did you grow up in America?  Were you born into a Catholic family? Have you always been a Catholic?  

So, okay. So definitely...born, raised, bred in America. My mother is Polish. She escaped communism in Poland in 78, 79, when she was post-university, about to go into graduate school. She moved to Columbia, South Carolina. And this is the story my father tells. She and her sister and my babcia, all very, very good Polish Catholic women. St. Joh Paul II would be proud of these women. So my father says, they went door to door asking these heathens in the South if they could pray the rosary with them. And they stopped at dad's house. He thought she was beautiful. Yes, of course I will pray with this woman. Come in. And they prayed and it was beautiful. And they got married only a few months later. And that is true that they met and it was very short courtship. And then here we are. Now, I was telling a friend at my wedding the same story. I said, Maybe this is sort of like my husband and I’s story. And my mother heard this and said, No, no, no. They were at university together.  He did think she was beautiful and wanted a study partner. So invited her to get a hot dog and fries or chips. 

Oh, we know this is America now. 

There we go.  She was very focused on her studying.  He was very happy to eat. She ordered something, but she didn't eat, so he got to eat it as well. And that was the beginning of a beautiful 45-year marriage. So she was very Catholic. My father is more of a - he’s not had as many trials as my mom had to go through. So we grew up with the rosary every night, the rosary in the car, Mass. We were all altar servers. We were fortunate enough when I was very young to have a Catholic school to go to, but then we moved where there was no Catholic schools, but we had a good parish.  My mother wanted to serve as much as she could, and she still is one of the people that ends up cleaning the holy water bowls. You don't think, Ah, those get like water stains or lime scale on it. My mom and several lovely people in this country do that. They see the bowl and they take the initiative. And I think I get that from my mom. Okay. Sometimes it doesn't work… So I was very Catholic, very Catholic. We didn't go on pilgrimages. I don't know if it was because there were so many of us. I'm the oldest of six. It's hard when they're all in the States, I'm over here. 

So you're the only one over here?

 I'm the only one over here. 

Okay. And how is that? 

So in New York, I had moved when I was doing theatre in New York. 

You were doing theatre in New York? Let us just pause on that. You were doing theatre in New York! 

Yes I was doing theatre in New York. Growing up, I always wanted to do theatre. And luckily my father really encouraged this. I was loud, but my whole family is loud, to be honest. A loud, loud family. When I was in high school, my drama teacher was the wife of a Methodist pastor. And she saw that I was, had, I don't know, you can sense sometimes the Holy Spirit in folks, working. But she was very much wanting to nourish. And I was very happy to be nourished in the arts and in theatre. She introduced me to a retreat. This video changed my life. It was a one-man production of the Passion story. So he didn't play Jesus, he played all the different other characters on the way. There wasn't a lot of costumes, there wasn't a lot of things. For theatre folks, it was very clownish. The way he just personalised the people and through their relationship with Jesus - I was already close to Jesus. He was my imaginary friend on the playground. He was my friend that I would leave all my siblings to go to my room and chat with. He was very much an invisible friend, but I knew this is God that is my best friend. But this guy was amazing and I was like, I want to be like him. So then, this is a bit of a brag, senior year of high school, I got to audition and join the university drama ministry team. It wasn't Catholic, but I didn't care. We were still talking about Jesus and God, so it was fine. Tuesday we would rehearse, Wednesday we would do for the chaplaincy this little skit or play. And here was this young high school student being amongst these older people and they accepted me. They thought, Yeah, she can do these parts. This is great. And from there at university, I and Elizabeth Mangham, it was Elizabeth Mangham's idea. We started a drama ministry at our university, and then it just kept building. 

So drama ministry, just explain that a little bit to us. 

So it sometimes can be biblical stories re-enacted. Sometimes it could be parables re-enacted. But sometimes we can take the main essence of, for example, the Prodigal Son. The version we do is, the Prodigal Son has a hat, it's very clown. So you've got a hat. So when you're the boy, you talk like this ‘and I want to go home, daddy. I want to make my own life. I need to go’.  And daddy says blah, blah, blah. So you switch everything around and with interacting with the audience. Because you end up being the gentleman that gives me the pigsty to stay in. Unfortunately, ladies, you end up being the temptresses for the young prodigal son.  And then perhaps you sir, in the front, Thomas, you end up being the father - with hats switched around and everything. In it though, we take it a little bit further to connect it with today. So this is always the problem part for me. The son, the oldest son, sees how much Thomas the dad is in love and embraces the son when he gets back. ‘Son, I'm so happy.’ ‘Daddy, thank you for taking me back.’  So it's beautiful, wonderful. And then we go off and then the oldest son goes, ‘But daddy, I've been here struggling every day.’  I always, because I'm the oldest daughter.  I had that thing, Why are you spoiling them?  So throughout the first part, when I'm with the pig-seller, the prodigal son gives away a bit of his soul, which is coloured cloth.  I give some coloured cloth to you ladies. I give coloured cloth to the bartender. So everyone gets these coloured cloths. So the father looks at the oldest son and says, ‘But don't you see?  We need to welcome him back. I need everyone to come.’ And so the father goes back to the pig man and is like, ‘You need to come celebrate, my son is alive.’ And he gets the cloth back. So you get all the cloth back. And so the father brings this all and he says, ‘Take this to your brother.’ He hands it to the older brother. And the brother's like, ‘Ah’. And so you see all these colourful cloths, this joy, this life. And that's how this reconciliation between older brother and prodigal son connects. So drama ministry does that. For the Catholic parishes, I've found that we've done it as part of the homily for youth Mass or part of a family Mass. Always being respectful of the altar, the tabernacle. Or it's done at retreats.  

That sounds really great. And what I can hear there that I think people might not always realise is that there's a lot of reflection on that biblical text first, isn't there? And a lot of thinking about what it might mean and how to interpret that and how to show that visually. Listeners, you're missing Helena being very visual here. But there's a lot of work you have to do yourself, a lot of understanding of your faith that needs to be there to turn that into a ministry, isn't there?  The drama bit is the kind of end point in some ways.

Then I graduate and the summer before I go to grad school, I end up working at a camp for Jewish children. I don't know much about Judaism as a faith. We were very focused on the Bible. So, but they hired me to do theatre with their young kids and I loved it and I did great. Then this was like the big pivotal moment of my life. There was a talent show and one cabin asked me if I could help choreograph something. I said, yes. Do you know the song, This Little Light of Mine? These little Jewish children did not know This Little Light of Mine because it's a Christian song. They heard it, they were like, I don't know how to sing it. And then, I never thought in my head, Wait a second, am I indoctrinating my faith onto them? But no, because they have the light of Hashem. Yes. So it's okay. They loved it. It was fine. Now, after they saw it, the next talent week, there was a group of boys that said, We want to do a talent show, like a rock, bebop show. And I said, Okay, great. There was another cabin, campers with special needs, some with Down syndrome, some with learning disabilities. And the cabin leader came to me and said, This guy here, Joe, (that is not his real name) Joe really likes to dance. Could he do something for the talent show? Now at this time, I am limited with time. So I said, Great, we'll go with the cabin boys with Joe, we'll get it all together. This was just Helena thinking systematically, Look, how can we do this? But it was the Holy Spirit really, really at work. So we brought Joe, we brought the boys and Joe showed off his robot moves. And he was amazing. And the boys, you could see how at first they were like, they didn't want to interact too much with Joe because he was an unfamiliar face. He was a bit clumsy, but also he was in that other cabin group. But they were amazed at this dance, this robot dance. And so I'm a big fan of Styx. So I said, what if we did something to Mr. Roboto? We played it for them. The boys were like, Amazing! Joe was doing his thing and it all came together so nicely. And at that time, in my head I started coming to terms now, as a director, How do I get Joe to remember his choreography though, so that it would work with the other dancers? How would we be able to have lines for him to remember because he has difficulties remembering things. He has fear of being in front of crowds… All of this within like three days worked my brain like crazy. It was one of the highlights of my life. It was amazing. The performance was brilliant. We had aluminium foil all over the boys. And then the next week, Joe and that whole cabin when they came into the canteen, they were like, Yeah. Joe and that cabin were teaching the other cabin kids the dance and everything. So it really, it was the Holy Spirit. It was not me, but it integrated that cabin with the rest of the campers, not because we did anything special, but because we wanted to work together. So I go to grad school and my theatre professor goes, You need something special. I was like, Women, I want to do women theatre. He's like, Yeah, that's already been done. Puppets, I love puppet theatre. He's like, No, that's crazy and it's already been done. And so I told him the story of Joe. And in America, back in the 2000s, there wasn't much there. So my thesis, all that stuff, ended up being theatre production for people with special needs. England was already calling, you guys have Oily Cart, the French had this beautiful theatre, you have Frozen Light. There's these amazing, amazing groups here that work with people with special needs, that put on productions for people with multiple disabilities, profound disabilities, but really touch and engage them. Here I am, like this is what I want, and I studied it all, I did it all. I went to New York, and we set up a theatre doing that.  And this whole time, God's working. I wasn't doing drama ministry, but we were always, it wasn't sneaky, it just ended up being This Light of Mine was a good practice.  There's a couple of really great stories, parables that were perfect to put on as plays. So we just ended up, it kind of was drama ministry with the plays. So that's how I got to New York. Okay. And then my husband met me in New York. We get pregnant with number one. We get pregnant with number two. And it's so much to do theatre in New York. You have to take the subway. You have to take the props in a box. It was amazing because as a little one-year-old, my son would go to the children's group for children with Down syndrome, and it would support families and things. So my son got to be already integrated with kids with disabilities at the age of one. He was less able to do things than the other kids, but they were helping him. But I'm one of six. All of my family is down south. My husband is British. And I'm American and we have a fondness of your beautiful language, Theresa.  His family was in England. We needed more support and he kind of longed to be back. My mom had other grandchildren already and so I thought, Well, let's go. So we moved over here 10 years ago. No, 11 years ago because Sam is 11 now. And it's been lovely. I've never lived in a city as long as I've lived in Cambridge.

Can we just bring faith back in there? 

Yes. 

I only was thinking around your decision to come here with your family. Was there some prayer and discernment as part of that? I'm kind of thinking there must have been. 

There was. As well as the practical side of it, you know. We only came with suitcases because we were renting and we just had no money. So we just brought suitcases. So we prayed about it. My mom was very excited. She was like, ‘Yes, go, go. Then you're so close to Poland. I could come visit you and then go visit my other family.’  So there was a lot of prayer involved. It was also really difficult because I had my own theatre company. I was one of the co-youth leaders at our parish church. I was the junior Girl Scout cadets leader. We were really invested in our neighbourhood in New York, but there was just a call. I did the prayer where you ask the Lord, Can you please close any doors that I'm trying to knock on and just open whatever windows you want me to fly out of? That's not the right words. 

Well, they're good words. 

Make it certain, Lord. I need certainty. So I applied to take on the artistic director of a youth theatre in my area. I was like, Oh, I've got all the right answers. This is perfect. This is perfect. And we were praying, but do we go to England? And I didn't get the job. And that night I said, We're going to England. Let's go. Let's go. 

OK. 

It didn't take long to get invested in our parish and become the catechist of the confirmation group at our parish. 

I think that is a nice thing about being a Catholic. If you move to a new area, there is a community that you can be part of, that you already have something in common with. That can help, can't it, with resettling and things? Now, we should talk about Radio Maria. Tell us how the door opened into Radio Maria for you then.

So I was working - another thing with moving to England that was perfect was in America, it was such a struggle to get grants.  You really didn't want parents to pay for their kids to be part of the theatre group. So it was a struggle to get funding for all the theatre stuff and to have like a job in it. Here, guys, complain as much as you want. But after a year being here, I was able to get a job where I was doing theatre, dance and music in a daily weekday facility for people with learning disabilities. It was heaven. I was having every day where I had that time with Joe, Yes, we can do this. It was amazing. So I was doing really well, but then COVID came.  I was scared. I was running away from having to be a house educator for my children. I don't know why. The first things to shut down were anything to help people with disabilities. And that was one of the last ones to actually reopen up. And I knew this was coming. We were put on furlough. At the time I was volunteering. When Charles Wilson, the president, who was at our parish said, Helena, you would be great with radio. And I was like, No, no - but I want to do radio plays. So I was already volunteering and then a job came up.  And again, it was prayer. Like we had gotten two months into COVID and we had a schedule and I was doing a really good job teaching my kids. I think they might tell you differently, but I was like, I don't know anything about radio. I don't know about any of this. I do know wires. I do know sound.  I can do all that, but... And so I prayed and I got an interview and then I became the second editorial assistant at Radio Maria. I think it was helpful looking back that I was that kind of American spirit, ‘Let's do this, yes! We will be in the radio from six to 10, it's fine.’ To be honest, it was an escape from feeling trapped at home. I hope there's no bitterness from my family from it, but it really gave me a passion again at doing something. It was also, confession time, it was more control. I could have more control than I had with my actors because I could edit. I shouldn't have said that there - just cut that!  Oh, we need more sounds to cover up... So it was this world and then it grew, it grew and it was time to hire a promotions person. The program is there, but now we need to get the word out. And so they were looking and they finally said, Helena, you could go do it. And I said, No, no, I'm very happy with doing this.  And Father Andreas was the priest at the time. He said, but you want to see England. You want to go to Leicester.  You want to go to Nottingham, Birmingham, Liverpool.  And I did. So I took the plunge and switched roles. Luckily, I'm still able to do some stuff. Some monthly programs and some weekly programs. It's helped me faithfully though, too. The Bible was on every wall at home. My mom had it everywhere. We had it in the car, as I said. Growing up in the South as well, I would go to a Baptist youth group on a Monday night. I would go to the Methodist choir on a Sunday afternoon. And then on Sunday night, I would go to the Catholic youth group. And my mom was so happy that I was surrounding myself in that. So I had it all around me. Once I went to university, it kind of disappeared a bit as it does. I never doubted God was with me. He was there the whole time. I never felt abandoned. And if anything went wrong, I would always blame myself and not Him. But he wasn't all around. So Radio Maria helped bring it back all around me. And at a perfect time, because as my boys were getting older and starting to really sense… The Lord just kept bringing me people. It was, Oh, here's this children's liturgy person to interview, Helena. Oh, I'm gonna take that away. Oh, here's this person talking about how to talk to youth people about this. Oh, I'm gonna take that away. So then I feel the Lord just kept bringing me people. So I feel like the Lord has made me get deeper into the catechism. I learned more about my faith, has made me a better confirmation leader. I hope I'm a better mom, domestic church person, although my sons might disagree. 

That connects with me, Helena, too, because I've found since doing the podcast, you know, talking to other people about their faith, I knew that was important. That's why I started the podcast. But it really has made a difference to me having a different conversation every week with a different person. I've learned so much about my faith, which I thought - I didn't realise I didn't know.  But also it has made me feel more connected to my faith, just for hearing how other people are living their faith and the things that matter to them and the way they look at things. It is a privilege, isn't it? To talk to people about faith and be surrounded. To write the sub-stack thing that I do now on a Friday, sometimes I'm looking at the readings for the Sunday and all those kinds of things that are good practices for me. Make me look at the Bible more, make me think about what liturgical season we're in more and what's coming up and things. It really supports me in my faith as well. So I'm recognising that in you too. And I'm also recognising where you're saying the Lord puts people in front of you. That's what I find for guests. People come out of the woodwork in different ways. I'm actively looking for people too, but people come to me as well. I talk to people and think, Yeah, that was the right person for this week. I'm really glad that happened. So yeah, there's a lot there that think affirms us in what we're doing. You've shared a lot there about how active you are in the parish. Parish priests will be thinking, Gosh, I wish there was someone like that in my parish, I'm sure. Because it's lovely to have active people who are positive as well and have a can-do attitude. But what about prayers and practices that might nourish you, that you might go to in a tough time? What are the things that mean something to you? 

So usually, I'm not an extrovert, but I... the vampire side of me is, I feed off the energy of others. It's the relationship part. It's not giving. So for instance, I will - and there's many people - that will get so much out of a mission. We will help this family with building a fence, with fixing up their house.  We will together clean this. We will together do this soup kitchen. So it’s always been… I need a group to have some action with.  I recently have gotten part of a wonderful small group of women and we meet each week and it's multi-generational as well, which has been such a blessing to have, especially alone here in England. I've got a grandmother, I've got two aunts and I've got a little sister in this group and then a fellow sister. We're not doing anything, we're sitting and listening, but that's taken time. Maybe as I've matured in my faith, that I don't need to be helping with the youth. I don't need to be doing things to feel connected, that now we can sit and really get into scripture. Lent this year has called me out. So I went in with a plan. Did you guys go in with a plan this Lent? I'm going to fast, I'm gonna do this, no chocolate for me. So I went with a plan and I was like, Ash Wednesday, here we come. But then I was in Liverpool and it was all out the window. I did a whole programme about this. The kids needed this. I was stressed. I needed chocolate. I needed to have my phone time. So it was no prayers. It was a wonderful time. I love Liverpool. We're going to go back. But I go to my group on Tuesday afterwards. I was like, Guys, I failed at Lent already.  But luckily, luckily the other ladies were also like, Oh, we failed at Lent too. This has been my Lent: Sarah, you are a Godsend. She said, Helena, that's not Lent. And I've been with Radio Maria for like six years now, but I still don't have it right in my head. Lent is a time that the Lord invites you to give a gift to you. You don't have to plan a time. You don't have to do more. He already has accepted you as you are. And this is just an opportunity. You can do a stations of the cross on a Friday. An opportunity. This extra liturgical - why are we in purple now, Helena? That's an opportunity. So I stopped beating myself up. And this has been a really good Lent now. Another one of the ladies said, Well, what I do is I just do a morning prayer in the morning. I was like, Oh, why don't I do that? So morning prayer in the morning. And this is partly Father Toby's fault. He has stressed the importance of listening. And this is why radio is so important, listening to the word of God. Just reading it is great. But there's something that happens when you listen to it. I think Lectio Divina really ties into this where it's not just you sitting and listening. You've got to hear it and hear it again. So now every day, good old YouTube comes on and I get to listen to the gospel readings. The Lord will speak out and give me different words to think on. And it has been such a blessing. The Holy Spirit's working. So again, I started off action, went to reflecting, small group, talking about the Word, and now I'm at that part where I'm listening.

 A journey that people will connect with, thank you. And then maybe you’d tell us a little bit about family life, because I know if people look at some of the social media, you sometimes post about your family and you've got a very creative way of sharing how your family life is going. But as well as that, there's something about we were talking before recording about sharing faith with your children, which I think is always, for people who are parents or grandparents or looking at other people's children at church and thinking, Why aren't they this, why aren't they that? There's a lot to being a parent and trying to bring your children up in the faith, especially in today's world, maybe. Maybe it's more difficult. What are the things that matter to you then? 

So again, with my theatrical background, it’s clowning. It's not the circus clowning. Well, it is the circus clowning. The main thing about being a clown is what I try to take into parenting and life. And that is, you've got to be present. You think clowns are - the first thing they're thinking is, I need to be present with this person I'm with. I need to listen. I'm not going to know how people respond to things. I'm not going to know what's going to come out of Theresa's mouth after I say something, but I take that time to listen. And then find joy in the everyday. So all of a sudden, and this is what has been amazing with my work with people with different abilities, is this becomes a cup, but how can I work alongside you, be present with you, listen to you, so that we can turn this cup into perhaps a phone, perhaps, what kind of noises can come from it?  And so that's what I try to do with my children is be present, listen and find some joy with it. I don't do it very well every time. I am of the generation where you were told as a woman, get your career first. And especially in theatre, you're not gonna have time to do night shows and everything if you've got a baby, if you've got children. And that was very present in New York. And all my friends, we were all in theatre, we were all working so hard with very little money back, but it was our passion. I always wanted to be a mother though. Little story. When I was little, I would pretend I had 200 children and four husbands. But it was never about raising the children. It was never about the love of the husband. It was always, How can I organise this? How can I direct this circus of life? So that was my weird playtime thing. I knew I wanted to be a mom. I knew I would be good mom, I'd be a great mom. But in my head, That's gonna have to wait, I first have to get my theatre started. I first have to change the world. Aye, aye, aye. It was so humbling. So we got married. And then it was just three months that we found out we were pregnant. Now we were already planning, because it's like, I got the plan. You know how this is, I know how this is going to work. We got a puppy. I got her to practice. I have to learn, Theresa, that I can't be out every night. Someone has to go home and walk the dog. I can't just spend it. We have to save money for the dog food. So it was a good practice. But so literally the same month that we got the puppy - it was my plan, my plan, but the Lord decided to have a different plan. So we lost our first, I’m confident it was a girl. So we lost our first girl. In New York again, you're aware there's no support.  March for Life, and everybody tells you - no one tells you the options. For miscarriage, you go to an abortion clinic. You've got other young women there that don't want to have their child, are upset about that, whatever's going on in their mind. But I was there with my husband, really sobbing about this. But we couldn't, we couldn't because we didn't want to upset the other girls in the room. When I got the scan, because I had a scan to make sure that it's really passed away, they wouldn't let me see the scan because it would upset the other girls that were killing their child. But I'm - But this is my, I know she's dead. I know but this is my, can I please see the scan? No, no, it's against the rules. And then we, after she was taken, there was nothing. I was like, Can I get any of it back that we could possibly put in a coffin or a thing? No, no, that's not procedure. So was so cruel, it was so cruel. But our priest, Father Robert, was so good about it, so, so, good about it. And then I really became - I became a crazy dog lady. So she really became my baby. So she's my little Georgie. She's 15 now, living, still here. But because of that, there was lots of times in my life where God had to shake me and go, Helena, this is not your plan. You cannot decide everything. You've got to let some of it be mine. So with my family life, every time. Liverpool, we're going to do this, this, this, this. Boys, we're all going to do it together, but we all know, 11-year-olds have their own ideas and so do 7-year-olds and so do 13-year- olds and so does your husband and so does God. Everyone has their own plan.  But I've gotten better. But that is my thing with faith and especially this Lent. I had a really good confession where I confessed that I have too much control of letting God really be there. He is physically in my head, my best friend here, I've always felt like he's held me. And sometimes I feel like he's cheering me on. And when he's smiling, sometimes I think he's laughing at me, but it's just, it's a clown smile. So God is my fellow - clowns usually go in twos. So I've got my fellow clown man where we're present, we listen, and we try to bring joy. And that's what I try to do as a mom. I don't know if I answered your question. 

Well, I think that was wonderful, Helena. And thank you for sharing about your lost little girl. That will touch hearts, I'm sure. Thanks so much, Helena, for giving us some time. I've really enjoyed talking to you. It's been an amazing combination of really wonderful confidence, but also vulnerability and ups and downs that we all experience, all shared so generously with us. So I'm really grateful for you spending some time today and being willing to be here with the audience. This new experiment that we're doing. So thank you so much for your generosity today. 

Thank you. And thank you for giving a spot for people to share their stories. I think we've lost that as a culture, of sharing and being as a community. Where we might journal, we might go online to share our stories. But when you have, the power of hearing again. If you're able to share that story, to hear someone else's story, it’s life-changing.  So, keep up the good work. 

Thank you, Helena. Thank you.

Just one last thing listeners, I didn't pick up the thread here about people with learning disabilities and faith, but I will pick that up in a future episode.  

 Thanks so much for joining me on All Kinds of Catholic this time. I hope today's conversation has resonated with you.  A new episode is released each Wednesday and you can follow All Kinds of Catholic on the usual podcast platforms.  Rate and review to help others find it. You can also follow us on social media @KindsofCatholic. And remember if you connect with us on Substack, you can comment on episodes and share your thoughts and be part of the dialogue there.  Until the next time.