110. The Magic of Speculative Worldbuilding (Part 2)

In part two of this two-part episode on worldbuilding, Suzy and Fantasy author, editor, and book coach Gabrielle Kirouac Byrne dive into the multifaceted topic of magic. Learn how to incorporate magic in a way that feels satisfying to your reader. 

🌟 Grab your spot in Suzy's Inner Circle at www.suzyvadori.com/innercircle

Sign Up for the Inspired Writing Newsletter HERE

Submit Your Page for our Show don't Tell Coaching Episodes

Leave a Review on Apple Podcasts (Thank you!)

 Intro and Outro Music is Daisy by Zight and used under a CC by 4.0 DEED Attribution 4.0 International license. For more music by Zight visit https://www.youtube.com/zight 

Transcript

0:05

Welcome to the Show Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Susie Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction. Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be. Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away, as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger. Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book. There are real and important skills that you need to learn. On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need. I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing This guest that I have here today is such a treat. When I was thinking about doing world building and then I ran into my good friend and fellow book coach, Gabby, at a conference in Denver and we started talking about world building, I'm like, "You're the one I want to do this episode with." It is so exciting and we talked so much that we actually turned it into two episodes, although we recorded it all in one sitting. It's a lot. So get your pen and paper ready, get your imagination ready, and come and geek out with us about world building. And Gabby is a fantasy writer, but world building applies to absolutely every single genre. We'll talk a little bit about that, and we will show you some ways to incorporate it into your genre as well. Just so that you know, Gabby has the chops to be talking about this. Her official bio states,"Gabrielle Keroack-Byrne writes and edits fantasy in the tangled wilds of the Pacific Northwest. She has a master's degree in literature from the University of Aberdeen, Scotland, and a second bachelor's in environmental studies from the Evergreen State College. Gabby loves Thai food, cats, anime, and talking about gelatinous zooplankton," and I promise you, we don't talk about that on this episode, although I probably should have asked her about it. She will 100%, according to her, name your pets if you let her, and when she's not reading, she can be found putting spiny beasties into books or fishing spineless beasties out of the Salish Sea. She's the author of middle-grade books The Rise of the Dragon Moon and The Edge of Strange Hollow. Gabby is represented by TS Ferguson and Zanshan Literary Agency. Please welcome our special guest, Gabby Okay, so the food. What about money? What about- Mm-hmm … political systems? How do those sort of cultural elements play into what you need to know about your world? Whether it's a fantasy world or historical fiction or- Right … contemporary, but just set in a different country, right? Like, all of these things are cool. They're super cool, and it's so easy to get distracted by how cool they are and by how detailed you can make them, right? And that's a whole, that's a whole skill set unto itself. Like, and it's a whole hobby unto itself, to build elaborate, very detailed worlds. But when you're writing a story, the story is what matters. And when I say the story is what matters, what I'm really saying is the character is what matters, right? Yeah. Like, what does that character want? What do they need? How are they in opposition to each other, the wants and the needs, right? And how does that, how does that want or need carry them through this world, right? Do, uh, are they, is their want to be extremely wealthy? Well, then your economic system is really important, and so is your power structure system. Mm-hmm. Right? If they think they want to be really wealthy, but really they want to touch God, and so somehow, uh, they have to learn over the course of their journey that what they really need in their, in their life is a spiritual existence. Well, then you've got, you've got to inter- interplay with a spiritual system and an economic system, right? And so there are gonna be elements of both of those things that connect to your character and how they are moving through the world in this scene to scene to- Yeah, absolutely… who are they meeting that Who are they in relationship with that brings in these parts of this system? If they're using magic, how are they using it in that scene? Are they using it? If they're not using it, if the other characters aren't using it, you don't, it doesn't, you don't need it Yeah Right? And- Yeah, and the same with tech and science, right? Like, you have to make- Yeah, totally… decisions, you know, especially if you're in a different world. Do we have science? Do we not have science, right? Okay, I know that one that you like to talk about as well is to add in, like, these are all the different elements, but to add in spirituality, right? And it's one that we- Yeah … one that we missed. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what you mean by that, and what- Yeah writers might consider bringing into that? Yeah. Whether it's fantasy or in any genre, really. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that spirituality is a really interesting system because it touches everything, and in particular, it touches the emotional core of a person or character, right? Mm-hmm. And so it's a really unique opportunity to put them in conflict with themselves, or with the people they care about, or with their society, um- Can you just back up a minute? Yeah. Because spirituality, I mean, if we're just thinking, oh, do they go to church or not, w- this is a broader topic- Yeah … right? Like- No, no. Yeah, correct. Like, so I'll give you an example, and that might be the best, the best way to explain what I'm talking about. So in my first book, which is Rise of the Dragon Moon, I set up a society in which these people pay a tithe to the dragons of their world to keep the dragons from killing them all, right? And they do this in a really sort of reverent way. They really, these dragons are, like, important to their society, and they're, they're not worshiped exactly, but they're, but they're revered greatly. And they're, and they, these are people who don't have very much, and they pay these dragons to not attack them, right? And my character in this book, her father's been killed by dragons, and she's not happy about the way dragons are viewed in her world, right? She doesn't agree with this. She's pissed off, and she thinks, "We have so little. Why are we giving more to these creatures? You know, why, why can't we confront them in some way? Why, why worship them? Why do I have to give more?" And so that sort of basic understanding, and it's spiritual in that it ef- impacts the way these creatures are viewed, right? And the way that they're integrated into this village impacts her. It impacts her emotions, and it impacts her, her journey, the place where she starts to the place where she ends. And so I think, you know, just having those sort of spiritual overlays can be really, really powerful. Yeah. And, you know, like- Absolutely… going back to economic systems, if somebody's worshipful of money, right? They're not going to church to worship money, or maybe they are, but maybe that's a whole different world, right? I think those exist. I'm sure they do. I'm sure they do. But, you know, if somebody worships money, it impacts everything about their character and how they interact- Scrooge McDuck… with other characters. Yes, right. Re- exactly, yeah, the whole Dickens, the whole Dickens suite of stories, right, is impacted by class and economy. Yeah. But it impacts every piece of your life, and spirituality is the same way. Whether somebody considers themself spiritual, considers themself not spiritual, if they're vehemently atheistic, if they believe that objects have spirits, you know, there's lots of stories like that where objects are imbued with their own spirit. There's lots of different ways to approach that, but it, I find it really impactful and powerful because it's intended to connect directly to the, the emotional being of a person. Yeah. That's its nature. So how do you know when world-building and your geekery around your world-building has taken over the plot or become distracting? Like, how can writers tell if they- Yeah … have done this poorly? Yeah. Because it's gonna be- Yeah. If you are putting off your storytelling, if you are putting off sitting down and writing your story because you want to explore adjacent landscape, or, you know, or you feel like, yeah, I've got this magic system pretty well sorted, but, you know, this one piece of magic, maybe it splits into five, and maybe it, you know, works slightly differently, and maybe I should do an essay about that. I think if you're, if you are using world-building as a distraction to keep you from writing your story, it is time to stop, because there is an element of world-building that's organic, that happens as you're writing, and that's because your character's journey will remain, it's the nature of writing, somewhat organic. You're gonna learn more about that character as you write them, and they are going to tell you, "Hell no, I am not going to…" What is that phrase? Get along to go along? You know? Get along to go along? Yeah. No. I, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna- Get along with this character. I'm not going to, you know, pat the shark in the aquarium. I'm going to do this other thing that you didn't plan for, and good luck with that. Yeah. And that's what your character's gonna start to do, and then you're gonna be like, "Oh, maybe I do need to know that shark actually doesn't eat people, and he speaks Slytherin." You know, whatever. Yeah. But the point is, you're following your character, and that is what you need to know from your world building to share with your reader, to ground them in the character's journey, in the scenes, right? Yeah. You, you … There's this classic world building analogy of the, of the iceberg where you've got the part that you share at the very tippy top, and then this enormous amount of stuff you don't share, right? And you only know what you need to share because you're following your character through scenes. Absolutely, and I think, you know, I always teach, I mean, I'm a huge proponent of outlining, but- Mm-hmm … outlining and then kind of feeling your way through it, right? The, yeah, your outline is not gonna include everything, and nor will your world building. Yeah, I mean, your world building will really evolve, and you're gonna see connections, and I mean, I'm a, I'm a lot, I'm really into brain science now. It affects your readers and how, but it works when you're writing as well. Oftentimes I can see, even with another writer's work, there's connections that are there that you can make, that all of a sudden you're like, "Ooh, I made up this cool magic thing," or,"I made up this cool world thing. It could fit here in a way that I hadn't thought about before," and it kind of takes it in a different direction. Right. You know? Right. In Gabby's world, the characters are speaking to her. I like to think that my brain's in control, but both are the same thing, right? Yeah, absolutely. We're kind of like dancing our way through the, the middle of the scene, um, until that- Yeah. And, and also you may, you may stumble into a scene that you, that takes, goes in a slightly different direction or, you know, it, uh, brings up a new interaction or a new, new side character that you need, and suddenly you realize, oh, I really do need to explain this piece of the world, right? Yeah. I really do need to say a few words here about this, or my reader is not going to understand what is happening. And that's how you know you can step away and develop that piece if that hasn't been developed. So, you know, the idea that you have to understand every single … I mean, we don't understand everything, single thing about Earth And we have been here since- Oh, speak for yourself. Oh, just don't… I know all the things, right? You, it, there is no world- I am omniscient There is no world in which we know all the things about the world we currently live in. Yeah. So to try and explain all the things about the world that you're making up, you know, it's not gonna happen. So you have to decide what are the key things that you h- need to know, and you will not get that 100% right. Right? You will learn and grow as you write your story, and have to change things, or adapt them, or develop new things. Yeah. Okay. So I love, love, love that we have you on the podcast, 'cause I wanna talk about age group, and- Oh, yeah. Sure… different techniques. Mm-hmm. How does world building for adults change for middle grade, for YA? Like, are there differences? There are differences, but they're not as big as you might believe, right? Part of the difference is the limitation of word count, right? You can only squeeze so much into a 40 to 50,000 word novel. But what is the same is that you are following that character's journey, and you are- Mm grounding your reader, not just in the things that matter for that character's journey, but also, and I think this is really important, in the sensory details, because those are the grounding details. You know, the smells, the food you mentioned, right? The way characters move in space is really, I think, something that I feel is too often overlooked for showing character. And so for middle grade, you know, there's a level of complexity that you might pare down, right? You're obviously not gonna wax poetic about the economic system. But you can still … Kids still fully understand greed, right? They fully understand what it's like to lack something, or to need something and not get it, or to want something and not have it, and other people have it. Or, you know, there's a million different ways to convey meaning in a world, in a system, in an environment that is universal. Doesn't, doesn't matter how old you are. And all you need to do to capture that is think to yourself, you know, like when I was 14, how did I feel about holding frogs? How did I feel about the Jordache jean movement, right? Like how did I feel about, you know, not being invited to the party, you know? Yeah. And it doesn't matter if the party is in the spaceship or if the party is, you know, in your backyard. Again, those universal experiences, right? That's right, yeah. The, those- And- … emotional moments that translate to- I, yeah … the reader. And I like to say, you know- Especially for middle grade, keep it fun, right? Like be- Yeah. Kids love humor … a little, yeah. Kids love humor. Like, you can actually be bigger, I think, with your magic, with your creatures, with your other things. You can be a little bit more out there. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's what makes it fun, right? They're a little bit, I, I agree. I think they're a little bit more willing to set aside that disbelief- Yeah … right? To, to go with you, to, without you explaining how it all works, right? It just works. Okay. And that can be super fun. Okay. Let's talk about magic. I mean, we talked about magic being a character. We talked a little bit about the systems. How does magic fit into world building if you're writing fantasy- Yeah … if you're using magic? I mean- Yeah … other than it being a get out of jail free card, which I love. One time. One time being a get out of jail free card, and after that, people get mad about it because it's too easy, right? You can't make it too easy. They, your characters still have to earn their outcomes, whatever that looks like- Yeah … um, in your story. Um, yeah, if you have magic in your book, I think the things I run into most frequently with folks is that they're not consistent. They're not using it. There's not, there's not rules that are consistent, right? Okay. You have to have a rule- Do we have to have rules? We do. We do- Okay … have to have rules. Unless you live in a world that is already sort of established, the rules are already established, and, and so an example of that is, like, if you play D&D a lot, and you write a story that's sort of in a D&D adjacent world, right, you automatically have the underfill of that world, that p- that m- a lot of readers, any reader who's played D&D will be able to tap into that. Oh, yeah, that orc just had a poison bomb and threw it. Like, so you have sort of like a soft magic system, where your world is just magic, and that's just how it is, and y- you don't need to say a whole lot about it. It works in the same way, right? Yeah. So you can, you can leverage those things. Same with, like, what I was talking about earlier with creatures, like if you're using, if you've got a vampire in your book, you're leveraging a huge amount of history about vampires that people can access. Yeah. And, and do so, you know, readers read, so they've read a lot of vampire stories. If they're reading your vampire story, you can bet they've read other vampire stories, right? Yeah. So if you have a system that is really reliably consistent on its face, you don't need to worry quite as much, but you nee- it needs to be consistent, and that- I agree requires rules. And, I mean, I agree that there are rules, and there's lots of, you know, discussion in literary circles about books that don't have rules, you know? Yes. That we don't know what the rules are- There's an exception for The Lord, Lord of the Rings and everything else. But I, I would argue that, we'll go back to your iceberg analogy- Yes that Tolkien knew what was going on, 'cause nobody can point out any inconsistencies exactly, but it doesn't- Right … mean that they are always explained, right? Correct. They're mysterious to the reader- Yeah, yeah … but yet he managed to write a pretty darn, um- Yeah… pretty darn interesting Yes. Yeah. Um, and so whatever that is. There was probably a lot of work behind the scenes that didn't end up on the page, um. Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right, and having rules does not mean describing rules. It means seeing consistency in the way things are used, because that- And deciding. Making decisions- Yeah throughout the way. That's right. That's right. So, you know, um- You know, uh, you know, and, and some of that too is recognizing that if there are inconsistencies, it relates to character. So like you think about the way Gandalf used magic versus the way Sauron, yeah. Sauron, yeah. So, so they're both wizards. They both use magic. They both have access to the same magic system, and it works in similar ways, but they use it differently, right? Yeah. But it's not like- Actually, we all are different, right? Yeah. But- But you don't read that and go, "Hey, wait a second. Didn't Gandalf just, you know, turn his pipe into fireworks last week, and now he can't do it anymore because…" I mean, I don't know. I'm, this is a terrible analogy. But the point is- Now we're hate mail from all the fans. Like, why are you talking about Gandalf? You don't know. I'm rescuing you here. I kind of am loving this process. No need. I'll just own, I think Gandalf uses magic consistently. Yeah. Whatever that looks like, and that's really important. And then I also feel like there always has to be a cost There always has to be a cost for magic, and- And limits, right? Limits, costs. E- exactly, yeah. There has to be a boundary. You can't just solve all the problems with magic, because that ticks off readers really fast. And again, like, readers read. They've, you know, they know what a system that works should look like. Even if you're asking them to put aside disbelief in some very important ways, if you're asking them to do that consistently, they'll go with you. Yeah, exactly. And I think the limits are really important. I know I teach magic in the school systems, and when I go into a, a, a room, I'll say to kids, you know, when we wanna talk about the limitation piece of it, I'll, I'll say, "Okay, I'm Suzy Vadori, author, and I just arrived, and, uh, unfortunately, I, I, I hate to tell you that you're all in mortal danger. But don't worry, because I have the power to save you all right now." And then I snap my fingers and I say, "You're saved." Was that an interesting story? No. Right? Now I go, I go out of the room, I come back, I say, "Okay, let's try this again. I'm Suzy Vadori, author. Unfortunately, you're back in mortal danger, and I do have the power to save you, but I can only save one person every month for the rest of… until you're all saved. So who would like to be saved first?" And then they all say, "Me," right? Like, so now we have a story. Like, how am I gonna decide? And squid games with children. Yeah. Like, like how are we gonna decide how I do that? Because my power all of a sudden has a limit, right? And it's not- Yeah … I get a- Yeah card. Yeah. Okay. And it's, and it's very simple, right? Like, you're limited- Yeah … by time, and you're limited by usually some kind of source. Mm-hmm. Right? Like- Yeah… your magic comes from somewhere, Your magic happens in a certain time or in a certain place or through a certain series of actions or words, right? Your magic is attached to an object That's required for that magic, or that object is magic in itself, right? There's lots of different sort of ways to approach it, but all of those things have limitations. Yeah, and I think you need to know that source, right? And that's where- Yeah. Oh, yeah… you know, sometimes it's, there's- It could be magical creatures. It could be divine beings or higher powers and that spiritual side of things. It could be, like you said, an object, like superheroes. Either way with your plot too, right? Yeah. Like, if your magic, if your character's magic is tied to an object and they lose that object or that object is stolen, that is your, you know, that's a huge piece of your story. Yeah. Right? As- as would be where that object came from, its origin, right? Yeah, and it- it doesn't have to be super original. I mean, look at- No … Popeye. He eats spinach and- Mm-hmm … becomes strong. Like- Yeah… if I told you that you were gonna franchise like Popeye was in the day with a character who gets its magic from spinach, I mean, like, come on. It can be anything, right? Like, that's the fun of this. It can be anything. Have some fun with it. But- but it works because readers know what to expect, and they understand- Yeah … where it's coming from, right? So as soon as Popeye gets that can of spinach out, you're like, "Oh, here it comes. Here it comes." Yeah. And on those rare occasions when something happens that prevents him from eating the spinach, oh, my gosh, right? Like, that's a terrible thing that happens, and we all feel that. And it's tapping into that universal understanding of- Mm-hmm … a situation, of a feeling. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so one of the biggest mistakes that I find newer writers make, um- Yeah when they are trying to write magic, is that their magic is just too darn subtle. Like, it's, like, buried in the middle of a paragraph, or they have magic where, you know, they just think it's implied. What's your best advice? Like, do you see this as well with writers that you work with, and what do you do about it? Yeah, I think that's symptomatic of them not understanding their magic, right? Yeah. Because I think when you start to think about what are the limitations and the costs, what is the origin of this magic? What is its source? If it's an object, where does that object… You know, was it gifted to you by your mother? Was it handed down over generations? Did you find it- Yeah … in the garden? Did you pick it up at a flea market? Did you know it was magic? Did you not know it was magic? You know, so all of those sort of character-based questions will impact your s- your plot probably, right? And but also will impact how that magic gets used. Yeah. And again, listeners, listen up. What Gabby just said, you write it in a separate document. You do not make that a chapter answering all these questions- Yes … about your magic- Correct… and you bring it in as needed. But I like to say as well, like, make it big and make it weird. It is magic, so you don't want it to feel too familiar. You know, if you have a cerebral magic where I think something and then it happens, and I think something and then it happens, and the reader says, "Well, was that a coincidence, or d- was it magic?" We don't want them to miss it. Like, give it a color. Give it a smell. Give it a sound. Give it a tingling feeling. Give it something. Yeah, I love that. Make it 3D, right? We wanna experience it. Well, magic is inherently un- It's unfamiliar because we don't get to have it. Right. And so if you're giving us a gift, if you're giving us a gift of magic in your story, yeah, make it a good gift. Make it a gift we wanna get. I don't necessarily… I mean, there are lots of stories, like you think about sort of the, um, the alternate world. I'm thinking, like, maybe, I mean, X-Men, super big, right? Big magic. Yeah. But, but even some of the, I don't even know what they're called, they're not exactly police procedurals, but they're sort of the metaphysical, where somebody is psychic, and they can see the future. They can see what's happening, right? That's a form of magic that's working consistently, but it is a gift because we are with that character and seeing it happen. Yeah. And we're getting enough of the negative impact, the cost of that magic, right? That is also, in a weird way, it's, that's also part of the gift, right? It's what they gain from it and also what they lose from it. And so I think when you have those subtler magics, if you can take a minute- Take a beat, right? And write a character experience in first person about, you know, how this magic impacted them in a good way, and how it impacted them in a bad way, and then rewrite that subtle scene. It's gonna get, one, less subtle, which it should be, and- Yeah … two, you know, it, it, even through interiority, right? Even through that, that character's emotional- Inner voice … response to what's happening. Yeah, exactly. You know, that's the gift that you're giving your reader, is that experience of, i- of both the advantages and disadvantages of this, of this wisdom- The- this magic. Yeah, the gift of magic. That is gonna stay with me for a long time. It's gonna stay with listeners too, thank you. The gift of your presence, the gift of this conversation. We've made it to the quick-fire round. Ooh, my gosh. Are you ready? Ooh, quick-fire, yay! Okay. Okay. I'm ready. I know you've studied for this one. Okay. How long did it take you to write your first book from the idea to publication? Oh, my gosh. Well, my first book was not my first publication, is the short answer. Okay. So my first book took me four days, because I wrote it in response to a con- You might, you might, you might win this. You might win this, uh, I don't think I've ever heard four days. I love it. It, it was a contest, and I'm struggling to remember what it was called. It was, like, way back in the early aughts, and it was, you know, write a, write a novel. It might have even been early NaNoWriMo. It was write a, write a book over Labor Day weekend. Good luck. Oh, my gosh. So four days to write the first draft, but how long until it was published? Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Well, and that book has never seen the light of day, nor should it- Okay … ever see the light of day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? The book that I first got published, I wrote in, it was probably a year and a half because, and it was Dragon- Dragon Moon is my debut, and I wrote that three or four times before I and my agent was happy with it. Right. It was the third book we had gone out on submission with. The book I got my agent on, it probably took me closer to six or eight months to write. Yeah. Now, re- listeners, when you're listening, these are middle grade books. They're 40- Correct … to 50,000 words, right? So they're, like, ha- like, they're smaller books than what you might be writing- Yeah so don't compare. I will also say, you know, like, they gained many words over the course of working with my agent and with editors. Yeah. You know? So Dragon Moon started out at, like, 50,000 and ended up almost 80, which- Okay, so they were longer … would not sell today, right? Yeah.'Cause today it's much shorter is what is selling, but yeah. Okay. What was your first big break? My first big break was being chosen as a Pitch Wars mentee. I think it was 2015. Okay. And it was a break not in the way that you might expect it to be. It was a break because of the community that I built there, the writing community that I built there, and the support that I found in my writer community, and the critique partners that that gave me. Which is inadvertently how we know one another as well. Correct. Through, through that- Yeah, yeah … network. Yeah. Absolutely. And I would argue that my other big break was attending my first, my first writer conference because they had an agent pitch panel, which I did get some requests out of the pitch panel, but that also was not the break. The break was the moment when I realized, oh- You can write something people might wanna read, and there's a path in that, right? Yeah. Like, from, like, that, like, isolated writing a book in my room to that realization that, like, oh, I can follow this path and work, uh, you know, hard, and if I am … If I practice, and if I am persistent, you know, and if I am patient, and those are the three Ps that I talk about in my work with clients a lot. Like, if you have to be persistent, you have to practice, and you have to be patient. And if I do those things, you know, then I have a chance to, to, for people to read what I'm writing. Ugh, I just love that both of your answers there are community. It's what I aspire to, to create here, uh, with the, with my Inspired Writing community, with all of those things, to be that place- Mm-hmm for writers to be like, "Huh, this is doable, and I'm gonna have people support along the way." And the reason I started the podcast was to kind of peel back those layers and to share these stories so that people could see how it- Yeah … worked for other people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and that- It might have- everlasting piece. Yeah. Like, that's the piece, 'cause the book journey, it's different for every book. The publishing market changes constantly. You know, there are always, it doesn't matter if you are, you know, self-published, indie published, trade published, if you're a bestseller, you're going to have disappointments, and you're going to have difficulties, and you're going to have successes. And your community that you build is what smooths that out so that it's a part of your life, and it feels- Yeah … like who you are and not a, a moment in time where you're judged and measured. Amazing. And the third quick-fire question, which I think- Oh, yeah … you just answered, is your best advice for writers starting out. You had the- Yeah … three Ps. You had the community. Uh-huh. Anything else- Yeah … that you wanna share, again? Just keep going. I mean, that's my advice in writing as it is in life, right? Don't give up, because- Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming… just keep swimming. I mean, it's so true, and it's hard work. It's hard, and your community will remind you that it's hard, and that they're there. And- You will gain so much from approaching it with joy. I think that's- Yeah … my last piece of advice. So worth it. Because that- Approach it with joy. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Do it because you love it, and not, don't be outcome based. Be, enjoy the process of it,'cause that's, again, lasting. That is- And the rest will come yeah. Mm-hmm. The rest will come. Okay. This has been absolutely amazing, Gabby. When listeners listen to this- Thanks … and wanna hear more from you, where can we find you? Yeah, so my website is the best place to find me. It is G-K-B-Y-R-N-E, gkbyrnebooks.- And we will drop that Yeah … we will drop that in the, in the links in the show notes. Yeah, that's awesome. And then people can subscribe to my newsletter and to hear more from me, and I would love that. It also gives them access to my intro package, so that can be helpful for folks too if they wanna try out working with me. Yeah. Amazing. I mean- Love it … definitely, definitely work with Gabby. She's incredible. So glad to have her in my network. Thanks for coming on the show today, Gabby. Yeah, welcome. We're gonna have you back again soon. Oh, good. Looking forward to it. Thanks for tuning in to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Susie Vadori. It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write. Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us. You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening to show how much you enjoy the show. That's how other listeners will find us. Also, visit susievadori.com/newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community. Want my eyes on your writing? Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes. I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals. I'm here to cheer you on. Remember, that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be. See you again right here next week