Episode 103: Why Helicopter Maintenance Is Unlike Any Other Career | MRO Conference 2025

Welcome to the Vertical MRO Podcast, brought to you by HeliCASTS and in partnership with Vertical Plus.

Recorded live during the 2025 Vertical MRO conference, this panel discussion explores what continues to attract people to the helicopter maintenance industry—and what the industry must do to support the next generation of maintainers.

Featuring insights from Dale Martel of Okanagan College, Mike Broderick of HeliDoc, Tristan Beddoe of the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology (SAIT), and Jeff Denomme of Alpine Aerotech, the conversation highlights the unique opportunities helicopter maintenance can offer, from travel and field operations to hands-on problem-solving and mission-driven work.

The panel also discusses the importance of mentorship, creating welcoming workplaces, and how the industry’s approach to work-life balance has evolved over time. Throughout the discussion, a common theme emerges: attracting new talent is only part of the challenge—retaining and supporting people is just as important.

For current and aspiring maintainers alike, this episode offers a grounded look at the realities, opportunities, and future of helicopter maintenance careers.

Special thanks to this episode's sponsors, Metro Aviation and Airbus.

Also, be sure to check out Vertical MRO's Instagram channel for even more awesome content highlighting the awesome work being done to keep the rotorcraft community flying!

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:01

Welcome to the Vertical MRO podcast, where we dive into the world of helicopter maintenance, repair, and overhaul. In each episode, we talk with the technicians, engineers, and experts who keep helicopters flying. Because at the end of the day, no maintenance, no mission.

SPEAKER_04 0:20

Interesting thing is if you take anybody in aviation, let alone rotary, and you sit down and start talking about the things that they were able to do, it eclipses anything else. We all have these amazing stories of places we've gone, you know, the Grand Canyon, Niagara Falls. My most special event is we were on the Kirkfire in uh Los Padres by Carmel by the Sea, and we were the last aircraft on the fire. So the pilot comes up to me and says, We're gonna go do a recon. You want to come with me? And I said, sure. So the squad bots and I hopped into the 212. We flow uh about a quarter mile offshore off the Pacific Coast Highway. We were 200 feet off the water. We opened the doors and we flew for about 30 miles south of Monterey. With the seals and the otters and the waves and the people on um on the one waving at us as we went by. It's just one of those special things that we all have that type of story of something that we were able to do because of the industry.

SPEAKER_07 1:13

Thank you to this episode's sponsors, Metro Aviation and Airbus. Hey, welcome back to Vertical MRO. This is our last and final panel for this week. It's been awesome having the panelists on. All the conversations, all the themes that have come up from the course of these conversations have been great. But for today, I feel like this conversation is another good opportunity to piggyback on the last conversation we had. The last conversation we kind of finished talking about, you know, how we welcome the newest students or the newest apprentices to the field. So we'll talk about that after the introductions, go through that, and then we've got a whole line of conversation surrounding the topic of entry and helicopter maintenance. So looking forward to doing that. But before we start, if you guys just introduce yourself from left to right and we'll go from there.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Hi, my name is uh Dale Martell. I'm the chair of aircraft maintenance uh programming at Okanagan College.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

I'm Jeff Denemy. I'm the president at Alpine Aerotech and Helicopters.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Hi, I'm Mike Broderick. Uh I write for Helicopter Maintenance Magazine and have been a consultant for the last uh about 10 years. My name is Tristan Beto.

SPEAKER_05 2:24

I'm with uh Southern Alberta Institute of Tech on the uh training side of uh the School of Transportation.

SPEAKER_07 2:30

You know, the the the end of the last conversation with the ladies talked about how they felt welcomed into the industry, and I think that's important as we consider wanting to retain folks that that come in. And I'm sure you guys have heard a lot of stories of folks that come into the industry, they finish school and they get out and do not like it for whatever the reason is. And unfortunately, a lot of that's probably because of the personnel issues that go with that. So if if you could, if it was was there anything that stood out to you guys in that conversation as far as that welcoming environment that we need to create that you guys can speak to? And maybe we could start with you on the end.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

Yeah, you know what I uh kicked off my apprenticeship, uh, left state where I am right now. I graduated and uh went out to the field. And uh to be honest with you, I got welcomed quite uh quite well with open arms and uh the need for uh capacity was there at the time, and uh folks really welcomed me into it, and I think that's speaks a lot to the success that I've had throughout the years as just a warm entry into aviation. Nice.

SPEAKER_07 3:29

Yeah, Mike, did you have that same reception into the industry?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Well, I started out, uh I I wanted to go to work for the airlines like most everybody did. I graduated in uh 1971 out of AP school, shows you how old I am, uh, three days older than Dirt. They say I held Or Orville's coat for him while he flew. But um I ended up going to work for an engine overhaul company that uh overhauled large engines, and I thought that's that's really what I want. They snuck a helicopter engine made by at the time Allison into the shop, and I became intrigued by it. Nobody wanted to work on it, it was too small, they just it wasn't that interesting. I got interested in it and ended up being a tech rep uh because of of my interest in that, and that just kind of led me into the into the industry and opening my own company, uh overhauling engines and and uh having maintenance from there. And that that's kind of happenstance, but once I got bit by the helicopter business, that was it. That was gonna be my career.

SPEAKER_07 4:32

That's nice to have a 50-plus year career in this field. You've seen a lot of positive stuff, so really cool to pick your brain on this. Thanks for for joining us. Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I I think one of the things that resonated was from Taya, like you know, I think we're doing a pretty good job of the we if we can get and attract people to come to our industry and maybe not just uh all going over to the fixed wing side of it, is that you know, Teya said that you know she's been accepted and she feels like she's part of the team. So I think that's that's important moving forward is is recognizing that you know the helicopter industry, for as long as I've been in, it's been it's it, you know, we live and breathe it, and it's a great industry, and we just we just have to do a great job, keep promoting it.

SPEAKER_07 5:16

Yeah, absolutely. Dale?

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Yeah, and I unfortunately wasn't uh um at the last event because I've been working and we are outrageously busy, but that's another story. Um, but however, just like uh Mike, when I came out of tech school in 1990, I wanted to go work airline. I in fact I wanted to work for Ward Air, which if you are ex-Canadian or Canadian, you know what that means. And when I graduated, Ward Air disappeared. It got absorbed into Canadian Airlines. And then I went, what do I really want to do? And I liked skiing at the time. So I put one and one together in Alpine Helicopters over on the west side of Kelowna is the world's largest teleskiing company. So I went, I want to go work for those guys. So I started showing up trying to get a job because I knew some guys who worked there and they were gonna leave. And I just kept showing up and showing up and showing up, and then they hired me and sent me in the bush for six weeks, and I think they did that, so I quit showing up.

SPEAKER_07 6:14

You know, I think a lot of folks have a general idea of what they're getting into in the industry, the idea that you're gonna show up to a hangar, maybe in the bush every once in a while. But I think the places this career takes you, the things you get to experience and do is unique. In most places you don't get to do that. We were talking before this panel, and you were talking about highlighting some of the neat places that you've been as a result of your decision to pursue this career. Talk about that, and we'll go, you know, just through you and then through the panel. Just highlight some of the cool things that you've done and seen over the course of your career.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

Yeah, you know, I um I had the opportunity to fly uh from the middle of Alaska to Anchorage in uh in a 212, been all over Africa, Angola, South Africa, Zambia, uh Rwanda, been to um all over the U.S. I flew from Calgary to Atlanta in a in a 212 and been up north, uh, seen a lot of places that you would never actually take a vacation to. So yeah, unfortunately, I'm uh I like fishing, and so some of the areas that you can get into, you can throw a line in and and cast and have a have a good time and some of the downtime. So but it's it's offered an opportunity to go and see the world and and get paid healthily for it. So it's it's been a great eye-opener globally. So I think there's a lot of opportunities to see things that you never would have the opportunity to see.

SPEAKER_07 7:35

Is that something you anticipated when you got into the industry, or is that something that kind of surprised you?

SPEAKER_05 7:40

No, to be honest with you, I anticipated just fighting bugs when I got into the industry. I thought um the horse flies would never leave me alone uh ever.

SPEAKER_07 7:49

So including now.

SPEAKER_05 7:50

Including now, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Mike? Well, I have flown over the Grand Canyon, I've flown over Niagara Falls, I've been all over Alaska like you. Um my first tech rep trip. After I had put the the engine back together, the turbine, I was for Alaska Helicopters, and this was back in the 70s. And after I had done the work and we'd done the ground run-up, signed off on the paperwork, I'm getting ready to leave. And the the pilot uh passes me as I'm heading out the door. He said, Where are you going? And I well, we're finished. As far as I'm concerned, you know, signed everything off. Is there something else you need? He said, Son, that shows you how long ago it was. I was considered son. He said, Son, if you're not gonna get in that helicopter, I'm not gonna get in it. Get out here. Ah, I get to fly. And then it dawned on me that what we do, uh, if we're not confident in what we do, how can we convey that same confidence to the pilot? And the only way is sit down next to him. And it's also led to some exciting takeoffs over the Grand Canyon off of a uh Bank of America building, uh, after changing an engine for two days, you know, flying off the edge of the building with the pilot. You know, there was there was four mechanics, and uh they said let Mikey do it. So I got in the right seat and off we went. But it's those things that you can't duplicate. And and unless you're with a group like this that has experienced the same stuff, uh it's an it's an unbelievable career. And our opportunity here and with the rest of our career to convince others that if you really want to have a good aviation career and you really enjoy working as a mechanic, get into the helicopter business.

SPEAKER_07 9:41

Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, there's lot there's so many opportunities, and and it's really a business that you know, there's a lot of different aspects to the business, from an operating to an MRO side, there's just so many things. But yeah, you if you want to see the world or or uh you know different parts of of the world. Like, I mean, one of my first jobs was I I had to live in a pup tent and at not a hardwell tent, a pup tent at the North Pole for three months. Um, and I worked from the North Pole to the South Pole and around. And so it's um, yeah, there's just so many different opportunities to be had, and and there's it's such such great things. It it really is a great industry.

SPEAKER_07 10:21

Did they talk about the possibility or opportunity to live in a tent when you're in school?

SPEAKER_03 10:26

They don't tell you that.

SPEAKER_07 10:28

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Dale. Yeah, um, similar stories. The interesting thing is if you take anybody in aviation, let alone rotary, and you sit down and start talking about the things that they were able to do, it's it's it eclipses anything else. And I'm sorry for this if you're a plumber or a carpenter or whatever, that you'll do in any other trade. We all have these amazing stories of places we've gone, you know, the Grand Canyon, Niagara Falls. My most special event is we were on the Kirkfire in uh Los Padres by Carmel by the Sea, and we were the last aircraft on the fire. So the pilot comes up to me and says, We're gonna go do a recon. You want to come with me? And I said, sure. So the squad boss and I hopped into the 212. We flow uh about a quarter mile offshore off the Pacific Coast Highway. We were 200 feet off the water. We opened the doors and we flew for about 30 miles south of Monterey with the seals and the otters and the waves and the people on um on the one waving at us as we went by. And I went, I wonder what a plumber's doing right now. Because it's just one of those special things that we all have that type of story of something that we were able to do because of the industry uh in regards to that. And I never I only spent one trip in a tent, and I was always in a hotel. And when you stay at a ski lodge, you eat really good and you can tell. So um, yeah, it's it's not comparable. You can't compare it to any. And like Jeff said, there's all kinds of operat opportunities. You could be a pool engineer, you could be uh uh an engineer uh on a base, you could go work for Jeff and an MRO, and I mean the opportunities are just through the roof.

SPEAKER_07 12:08

So I'll echo this sediment you've all talked about. I remember flying or San Diego coastal flights in Southern California and looking over at my TFO and be like, holy cow, we're getting paid to do this. Yeah. It's insane where you find yourself getting paid to do the stuff we love. And we talk about the passion for our industry and for what we're doing. I don't think you find that in many places. So love a lot of what you guys have talked about, or all of it really, but love what you get to do, what what this industry and what this career brings as possibilities, things you never thought you'd you'd do or go, Africa being one of those places, wild, you know? So is beyond what where people might find themselves, for somebody who's considering entering this this industry and this career, talk about you know some of the things they can expect. We talked about work-life balance quite a bit during during this week. Talk about how that's changed and where some of that work-life balance rests today. And I'll kind of open it up to whoever wants to go first.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Yeah, I'll do that one. Um in the time that I was in the industry, I went in the industry in 1990, and the stories you heard from people who were like Jeff's story about the North Pole. You went up north and you were up there for three months, and you had two 206s, and you slept in a tent and you ate camp food and you did that every single day, same inspections, under the midnight sun, or with a flashlight, or whatever you were needed to do, um, wearing your Heli Hansen and your Sorels and your mittens and your tokes and the whole nine yards. And that significantly changed in the time that I was in the industry. Whereas now employers look at the life that a person who works for them, whether a pilot or an engineer or whatever, and says, you know what, we can't do that to them anymore because here's the reality they're not gonna do it. They're not gonna go in the bush for three months and freeze their hind ends off. So there's been a significant change. And in fact, it's very rare now that you'll see companies do more than two weeks where you're out in the industry or out in the bush, and then you come back, do a little hanger stuff, you get your family lifetime. Um, that has been a significant change that I've seen in the industry over the time that I've been in it.

SPEAKER_07 14:16

Yeah. Jeff, for you as an operator, where where are you now and and how has that changed over time?

SPEAKER_06 14:25

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SPEAKER_07 14:28

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SPEAKER_03 14:48

It's exactly like Dale says, it's it's really about, I think, you know, it's a family, like it's not just the individual person that works for you. You have to think about their families and and and making sure that you know you you talk to them and you understand them, and that the mentorship part of it, even from when Clint's we were talking, it's it's so important. So I think, you know, just understanding what the challenges that we all maybe have personally or in the industry, I think that's probably one of the most important things. I think we're doing we have to do it, like Dale says, but I I think it's like an industry that is self so self-satisfactory that when you can actually, you know, be sent with a helicopter to go out on a tour and such and be looking after that helicopter all by yourself, it is very satisfactory, you know, and that's I think is you know, as an individual, how you grow, and and that's part of a company's job is to make sure that that those persons are have the right tools um and the mentorship to do it.

SPEAKER_07 15:54

Are you hearing a lot of people talk about the lack of a work-life balance in the industry or or any of that? Or does it seem like it's more in line of oh, this is there's a there's a fair amount of that work-life balance. What are you seeing on the operator level?

SPEAKER_03 16:07

It's it's probably up here at the top. You know, and and I I think I believe is like Claint was saying, I I don't always believe that the the money that money is certainly an aspect as well. Um, but I think it's a life work-life balance is probably at at the most at the highest level that I've ever seen it. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah, Mike? The satisfaction that you get out of this job is irreplaceable, as you can see here. I mean, we've got you know so many there I was stories that we can sit around and share and share a beer. But in order for you to have a satisfactory or a happy career, you've got to have the support of your family. Um, I was fortunate to marry a woman who's got a high threshold for pain. She put up with all of my traveling and uh narry complaint. Um I'm you know very fortunate in that because she allowed me to do all of these things here and gave me the freedom to be satisfied in my career and puts up with my and there I was stories when I get around guys like this. So I think that's that's important. And then when I started my own company, like I said, you've got to be aware of the people's families. And I can you can't just launch somebody out there and do the job if you think it's gonna affect their family. A lot of times I would send, I would go myself out into the field rather than send a guy because I knew that I had the support of my family where he maybe didn't. And that's that's again, that's part of the sacrifice that you want to do if you call it a sacrifice. But after a career of of 50 years, to be able to look back on all of the things that you've done and you can smile, and there's not that many people that I know of other than maybe us four guys that can look back and go, great job. I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_07 18:01

Interesting perspective. How do we how do we change that to where we get to where these four folks are the majority of the conversation? These four folks are echoing what everyone else believes. Like, this is amazing. How do we change that narrative?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

How do we change that narrative? I I guess we have more of these type of events, and we invite more people who might be considering uh, you know, they're they're already thinking about aviation, but we show them the uh the devotion that we have, the passion that we have, and and that's that's you know, that's catching. Uh I think if they're at all uh interested in in again being a real mechanic, that will transfer over the passion that we share, and and we we convince them. And I think we need to not only address the young men, we need to address the young women in this industry. That's what I was so happy about the last one is we there's two nice young ladies that are getting into it. The young women bring a different perspective uh to maintenance, and I think it's good. Uh we as men have you know an abundance of testosterone and big egos, and sometimes we let our egos get in the way of what we're doing. I don't think the women share that. I I think that they can give uh approach a problem differently and give you a different outlook on life.

SPEAKER_07 19:25

From the educational perspective, what would you guys what would you say you're seeing as far as ratios go? Do you see an increasing ratio of females wanting to join and get into schools to join this industry? Or where do you guys see that right now?

SPEAKER_05 19:38

I s yeah, I I see um a significant number of uh young women joining SAIT and other colleges. And in fact, there's uh a number of success stories through Alpine where where uh women have joined the rotary world. So it's it's growing. There's a lot of advocacy within the industry through Elevate Aviation, uh, women in aviation. There's there's a lot of groups out there, and and I know there's a lot of women in the Okanagan Valley that are in the um helicopter community that have banded together to really support one another. And and um I, you know, from my perspective, and we need to champion the women in the industry and really uh support and put put them up and make sure that that they're um a big part of that uh workforce because it's it's an untapped resource and it and they bring a ton of uh expertise and and skill and critical thinking to the table.

SPEAKER_07 20:29

Back to the work-life balance on you for new students coming into your program. Are what kind of questions are you getting as it relates to work-life balance or are you not getting that?

SPEAKER_05 20:38

No, we do get a lot of questions around the work-life balance, and and the conversation uh I try to have is is um try to map out your career in terms of what you want. We'll we'll explain to you all the options of where you can go. You can do airline work, you can do um MRO work, you can go to the component world and provide them the broad spectrum of the understanding of the of the aviation community in in its whole and and get a feel for uh you're young and you want to go adventure, you want to travel, maybe the helicopter world will fit you for a period of time in the operations world. But then, you know, set a timeline or or look at it. You know, maybe you want to have a family later in life, um, then the MRO world might be something that you look at, but sort of try to give yourself a rough outline of of where you think your career can go. And then that's on the operator and the the MRO side, like we've heard today, is to have those discussions and talk about that career path plan with your with your new apprentices and and give them the visibility on where they can go and to be open and transparent about how that how that succession looks in their career.

SPEAKER_07 21:44

Yeah, that career progression conversation's interesting to me. It brings the question of leadership into account. Jeff, for you having lit risen through the the ranks, when you look back on your career, did you have a kind of a career path in mind as you navigated this or did it just kind of happen?

unknown 21:59

Uh

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Uh I mean that's that's a tough question. I I um I mean I think it was always wanting to do more and just being driven, I think, but I have to give it back to some of my mentors that I work with that were actually gave me those opportunities to to do the things that I wanted to do. And you know, like there's there's mentors, my mentors are sitting in this room right now. So it's it's um, you know, it I think that's the thing that we have to do as leaders in in the business is is to do that same thing and give back and understand and try and attract people to our business. Like um, I on the previous panel it was mentioned, you know, if you wanted to go to the fixed wing side, you could actually get lost. It's a very big industry. I think the helicopter industry, as you look around here, it's it's quite small and it's very personable. And I think it's something that people it's an opportunity to be recognized and and um to progress. So that's my pitch for helicopters.

SPEAKER_07 22:59

I think for me on the flight side of of the industry, I always considered training, education, networking a big key to career progression and kind of setting yourself up for that next thing, whatever that next thing is for you. So I think this this community, what we've what we've created here, I'm hoping will will give some people some some keys and pathways to figure that next step out, at least to where you're you're prepared and qualified to go to the next level. But what advice would you have for someone who you know like you has identified, I want to kind of rise through the ranks and and maybe lead an organ lead an organization at some point?

SPEAKER_03 23:34

I I I think it's just be patient and and really listen and and just um like I think pick a path, like Tristan was saying, is try and figure out what it is and and maybe try different things. I mean, there is a a lot of different types of work we do in the industry. So I think that's just be patient. And I know for the younger generation that's a little bit harder. They want to go from here to here, but um I think it's I think it's just being patient and listening and and and asking questions.

SPEAKER_07 24:05

Mike, any insight from you?

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Uh there's a book that's out now that I've I've read. It's called Chop Wood Carry Water. I don't know if anybody's had it. The coach of the uh Ohio State football team had his group read that. But it's a story of a man's career. Uh and what it basically says is don't you know success comes from doing the small things, doing the um doing the dirty jobs constantly. Be, you know, be aware of of of taking those jobs on. Don't don't dis discount them looking for something that's that's more important. If you do the small jobs, if you do the jobs that are that are routine and learn those and do those uh competently, you will then progress along and and be able to take on the other jobs.

SPEAKER_07 24:58

But no, I think that the book side of it's interesting. Love love the continuous learning and and that type of motivation. Dale, from any insight from from you on that?

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Well, it it it actually starts in high school. Um we recruit out of the high schools. We are active in all of the high school career fairs, trade fairs, etc. Industry's jumping on board now. We're seeing a lot more of industry getting into the high schools early because that's where the dreams start in a lot of ways. A lot of kids sometimes 15 years old, they don't know what they're gonna do. Um, but some people at that age know um, you know, this is the pathway. I'm interested in aviation. What pathways exist inside? That's my story. I had I knew about aviation. My grandfather was Como third training program. He encouraged me. There were all these pathways in front of me. I never thought about helicopters. I met a guy from Pacific Western, which again dates us in regards to how old we are, and he set a pathway and said, why don't you try this? And as I said, I came out of school into helicopters, but that was a 27 years old. We now need to get kids at 17 in the high schools interested in what we do. And like I said, Jeff's involved in that stuff in the Okanaga. And the Okanaga is actually pretty easy. And the reason is we have such a big presence with rotary now in the Okanagan Valley. You can't drive a mile without seeing a helicopter operator. And then, of course, with the fires and uh Kosar and the search and rescue and all this, even the Heli tours to the wineries. Um, if you live in the Okanagan, there's a helicopter going over your head pretty much about every hour. And that helps us encourage students because they we can relate that now to an industry profession as opposed to everybody knows about airlines. So it makes it a lot easier. But that's the first steps. Get in at high school, get them out for students for a day. So we bring them in and give them an opportunity to try what school's going to be like, talk to students. We get them into um a lot of them will go to, I know Jeff will do that, um, right? Students for a day, have shop shadows, uh, get industry involved on that really at that very beginning part so they understand and see that pathway. We also get the shop teachers because the shop teachers are the ones who are working with the people with technical skills. So uh we get involved with them as well because they are the ones who are going to encourage the students go pathways uh uh into trade schools. So um that's where it's got to start. And we've seen uh a lot of success. It doesn't work for everybody, as everybody knows.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Um I think the trades need to be emphasized more in high school. Uh I know in the US it seems like when I was back in high school, you had auto shop, welding shop, wood shop, and those are the things that that if you didn't want to go to college, you had another career that you could choose from. They've eliminated those uh and replaced them with you gotta go to college and that this is your career path, this is what you're gonna do. That's not necessarily true. And and this is where we've lost out, I think, of a you know, a lot of opportunities to educate or at least introduce aviation to the high school level. Uh and then companies taking on uh rookies and bringing them in and training them and spending the time and the effort to to train them. That's a big that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_07 28:14

I think the early exposure like we're talking about for kids to the helicopter industry, the the pathways that exist to become a maintainer, a pilot, air crew, whatever that thing is within our community is critical. I think the next question people are gonna ask, well, that's that's great. I want to do that thing, but what am I gonna get paid? What can I expect? And you you can make a good living in this industry from an educational perspective. When folks come to you and like, hey, I'm interested, I know they're gonna ask, what's the salary range? And there's there's a ton of variables that that go into that, but what kind of answer do you provide for the students that do ask that question?

SPEAKER_05 28:48

Yeah, we it's uh it's a hot topic. Um, you know, students are investing uh $30,000 into their training over a two-year period and and missing out on having a job and and making money. So it's it's a big concern for them. Like I'm investing this money, and what am I gonna get out of this? When it what's what can I expect to make when I leave this uh this facility with my diploma? And um the conversation is is broad. You know, we're not uh providing any sort of like you're gonna make 25 bucks an hour or you can expect to make 18. It's um depending on what you want to do, where do you want to go? I mean, there's there's um you know, you can get better pay, but with more sacrifice, depending on, you know, whether you go to the operations side but uh of helicopters, you know, if you go to the MRO side, you might sacrifice some wages, but what you sacrifice in wages, you gain in skill set in terms of the the the work you're exposed to in the MRO environment. So there's a trade-off between the two of them. Um you know, the airlines are are fast approaching uh numbers that I'm that are highly competitive, and um it's it's a big check for the for the helicopter world in terms of how do we attract people in and and offer them that um you know the dangle the carrot per se to bring them over. And the adventure side of of helicopters is is uh certainly an aspect that uh folks are looking for. But we try to give them a broad range of, you know, you could make anywhere between this and this. Um we try not to discuss the numbers too too um closely so that we don't set an expectation that is is not met at the end of the day. But um we give them that the visibility of you know where you could go, what you could do, how how much you could make, and you know, what are the trade-offs through all the all the organizations.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Dale, are you seeing a similar we do the exact same thing? It's hard to let them know specifically how much they're gonna make. We tell them to call Jeff, we give him his card, say give Jeff a call, he'll tell you. Um, because he's the guy who's gonna hire you, and that is not wrong in some contexts.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Don't put me on the hot seat here.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

But reality-wise, yeah, we we have to tell them it depends on what you do and where you go. You'll make more money going up north. We tell them the helicopter rotary wage curve is quicker than fixed wing uh in a lot of contexts um in regards to what you have to do, but you also may have to be out in the bush for half a year to make some of those numbers. So um again, we can't we can't label it because it's up to you to go in and talk to the HR and find out what they're gonna pay you.

SPEAKER_07 31:27

As the recruitment issue grows, I'm sure we'll see compensation make up for some of that to try and attract some folks in. So I'm curious, you know, Mike, for you, when you look back to the early part of your career, how have you seen that wage growth increase? You know, requisite to the the the amount of knowledge you contain in the job you do.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

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SPEAKER_01 32:11

Well, the the entry uh uh I mean the the helicopter business is a group of small businessmen. If you boil it all down, there's probably about two helicopters per operator. If you call all the operators and put them all together. So you're dealing with a small businessman. Your pay getting started there uh is gonna be what they can afford. And the the cost of operating a helicopter is going anywhere but down. Uh it it appears as though getting parts is not only takes a long time, but it's also expensive. So that's all got to be justified. And and again, you're selling what you're s when you're talking to somebody that wants to get into this industry, you're telling them that they're gonna make a good living wage. That's what you that's basic. You've got the opportunity to go the different directions, like you've brought out uh about going OEM or or going uh overhaul uh or going out into the field. But again, it comes down to the passion as to what you want to do with this industry and how you want to how you want to become a part of it, or you can go to work for the airlines, they're offering insane wages to A and Ps coming right out of school. They also offer insane layoffs, and they will cut back 10 I've seen go as deep as 15 years experience. And when it comes to a layoff, they have no they have no conscience. You're out in the field, see ya, and that's it.

SPEAKER_07 33:46

Yeah, I think that's where a company like Alpine comes into interest here. You see the the operations you guys have, they're really cool stuff you're getting to do. A lot of different options available. Can you talk about some of the options that are available for folks that once they're qualified to come work at your shop, what things they might be able to find themselves doing over the course of their career within Alpine's I think it's um I think it's important that you know we recognize and we help them pick their path and and support them.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

I mean, for us, uh for example, we have an apprenticeship program that's very structured. Like it's not just you know coming and working for us and trying getting them their actual license um and advancement. It's actually, you know, there's six months check-ins. They are actually placed with certain with different mentors for the apprenticeship program. It's all um, you know, there's there's reviews in those performance. So it really is there's feedback to be given. It's not just by one mentor, it could be six different ones over the path of their apprenticeship. And along goes that is their logbook is filled out in conjunction with the their their mentors that are working within the program. So if I can say anything, I think it's one thing that you know could help, you know, provide direction for for both the company and the individual you're hiring so that it gives them that right path and a structured path. Um, and it seems to be working for us. I I mean I can't thank the people that are involved in that program because they also have a full-time job to do during the day as well, but they're also mentoring. And I think that's that that's our job nowadays is is really to be you know mentoring and passing on um passing on our knowledge and and showing their career path for advancement.

SPEAKER_07 35:32

Yeah, I think those apprenticeship programs are really interesting. We had Maria on earlier from Airbus and she talked about their apprenticeship program. Can you talk about your program and what it what it does and and you know kind of what you can where you go from there?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Well, it it it get it starts right from the very time they walk through the door through induction. They actually you you sit down with them with the apprenticeship program. It's all laid out and how this is what's going to happen over the next three years. And then after that, we you discuss what direction you're going, whether or not you want to stick in as an avionics tech or a structures tech. It it really does, it it just makes sure that you're having those conversations with those individuals uh even past the the apprenticeship program, and uh what training do they need in order to advance? And and how do we retain those people? Those it's exactly like Clint was saying, you you have to have those those conversations one-on-one all the time if you're wanting to to retain the the your team.

SPEAKER_07 36:34

If there's a shop who's saying, I want to I want to create an apprenticeship program, but don't really know where to start, what would your advice be to that that that operation?

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Pick up the phone. There's there's lots of I think there's I and even something like this, these uh conferences that you know that I've had conversations with other operators and MROs about this our program. And I think even talking with uh Dale and Tristan at the schools, telling them that we have a you know an apprenticeship program or or Company B has an apprenticeship program, they're the ones that are passing those words on to those individuals coming out of school so that they there's a structured path coming out. They're not just left to flail around.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Yeah, and the one thing, and I want to comment on this, because we take our students over and they go through Jeff's um organization. Uh, they bring him into a boardroom, they sit them down, he shows them this pathway of what's gonna be available to them when they they get on with the company. And it's really an interesting change because we'll take them to other MROs and the M and RNO will show them their facility and basically say, This is what we do, this is what we do, this is what we do. And everything that they say, this is what we do, is for the company. When they go see Jeff, Jeff sits them down and says, This is what we're gonna do for you. So it gives them the feeling that you know what, it's important for me to be working at that company because the company is respecting and looking at what I want to do as being something that's very important, which a lot of companies lose. They they bring you on, you're now just the number in the payroll system. You're gonna come in, you're gonna do what you're told that day, and tomorrow we'll do it again and again. Whereas, like I said, when when Jeff sits them down and we get this feedback from our students, they come back and they go, Wow, if I go work for for that company, I know exactly what my life's gonna look like for three years. And the company is investing in me, and I see that by the way these laid out.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

We give them free t-shirts.

SPEAKER_07 38:33

Yeah, and has we we talk about the need to do things differently than we've done them before. We got to think outside the box to retain these folks, to bring them in the front door. The models like what you've created, Jeff, at Alpine, those are the ones we need to look to and be like, this is a good standard, this is what we should do as an industry. So kudos to you guys for acknowledging that, recognizing that, and actually doing it.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Kudos to those people that are that really are in the program and the schools that are recognizing it.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

So well, the the cool thing is that I don't see them standing around wringing their hands going, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna handle it? You've taken on mentorship, which is uh something that's needed to be done. And it's it's not an expense. It's an investment in your future and in your company. And I think so many people, when they think about, oh, I'm gonna take on this rookie and it's gonna be an expense. No, it's not, it's an investment. You do be congratulated, and more companies need to take this this type of attitude of taking these these young guys out, bringing them in and giving them an opportunity to see where their path can go, and then following, giving them a structured mentor uh apprenticeship rather than you're an apprentice and I'm gonna put you with a you know with a a full-time mechanic and you're gonna learn what he's gonna teach you. You know, that's yeah, and I'm glad to see that that is happening within this industry. It's needed. Yeah, Tristan, for attract more people.

SPEAKER_07 40:01

For the operator who's hearing Jeff talk about this and being like, you know what, that that's something that I'd like to pursue. How could they work with the schools, in particular you, to kind of bring that online to create this program in conjunction with what you guys are doing?

SPEAKER_05 40:14

You know, absolutely. Say uh Satan, the the institute is happy to chime in wherever, um, wherever we can fit in with the industry. We're always looking for partnerships. And if it's uh helping with discussions around uh career path planning and developing a program uh to help out uh operators, we're the the doors open, the phones are always on, and we're we're happy to support the industry as a whole to to provide some guidelines and and maybe a sounding board. And from what we see um from our perspective and in what the students are looking for in terms of work-life balance, uh, we can we can provide some of that insight from from the institute perspective.

SPEAKER_04 40:54

Anything different for for you guys? No, same pathway. We're always talking industry and and encourage industry and really appreciate what industry does. Uh, because they make a even though we're kind of their HR re-recruiting firm, because we're in schools and we're bringing people into the industry, um, we have a lot of great success in the Okanagan Valley with industry uh coming coming to us and saying, you know what, you're doing a great job. We like what's what we're seeing, and they're also good for giving us uh, you know, other tidbits. This is what we really would like you to focus on. Can you move towards something more like this? And um uh that communication has to happen as well between industries and schools um in regards to uh getting people on board and and getting me excited about helicopters.

SPEAKER_07 41:39

Are you guys seeing an increase in the number of operators who are coming to you guys to find those partnerships?

SPEAKER_05 41:45

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And we we we take a look at where we are within the industry and and we're we're in an interesting spot whereas our students are our customers, but the industry is also our customer. Um, so we have two customer bases that we need to to manage, and and the student being a customer wants to walk away with the feeling that the education that they got prepared them well enough to enter industry successfully, and then the industry wants to come back to us and say, hey, great product that you're putting out there. We're happy to see what that's that's coming out. So we have two two ends that we need to to please at the end of the day to to provide a solid product out there. And so we work with the industry in getting feedback from them wherever our students are placed. We have uh program advise com advisory committees that that give us feedback on on the quality of candidates that we're we're putting out there and constantly trying to navigate that.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

So yeah, sometimes that can be a tough balance, I'll bet. Oh yeah, it's uh oh yeah, it's it's keeping both keeping both customers happy. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_07 42:50

The number of engineers needed as we go forward, we've talked throughout the week about there's this exponential growth in the need for these folks to enter the industry. From the educational side, what are you guys seeing uh as far as a response to that? And how do we how do we accomplish that goal of of bringing these folks through the educational institutions and then getting them into the field to actually fill those roles?

SPEAKER_05 43:09

At this point, um, you know, State, our our school is at capacity. We're uh waitlisted all the way out till 2027. So we're we're doing as much as we can to put uh folks through our program. We have graduating classes every four months. Uh so we're we're really trying to push it out. We're in the in the process of developing a traditional apprenticeship as a as a different avenue to bring folks into the industry. So much like uh an auto mechanic would do or a heavy-duty mechanic would do, you'd get you'd get hired on at a company, they'd sponsor you. You go through period one, two, three, over the four year period, you'd complete your what would be your two year diploma training, and you'd have a license at the end. And it's it's been done in Canada. There's precedent set. There's two two colleges that do it Red River College, and then there's uh a college in Newfoundland that does it. And um it's it's another pathway where we can start to introduce uh additional. um capacity to the industry. So it's it's something we're looking at and trying to trying to make sure that we're feeding the the uh industry enough of of uh the skilled individuals. Dale I saw you shaking your head when he's talking about the wait list.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

Yeah are you guys in a similar position? Yeah you can't get in until September 2026. So yeah there's a lot of interest in in aviation and that of course isn't just rotary that's across the whole board.

SPEAKER_07 44:25

Are you starting to see more in educational institutions come online to fill that that need as people are waitlisted or is it pretty pretty steady as far as the the number of institutions that do this?

SPEAKER_05 44:35

The ATO number hasn't changed in uh in quite some time. You can go on the Transport Canada website and look at all the um approved training organizations and all the basic training certificate certificates that are out there so you can you can get visibility on who's out there doing what but at this point I don't see a lot of increased numbers of ATOs coming online for basic training. Mike any insight from you on on this topic?

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Well we need more events like this uh we need to shine a light continue to shine a light on what this industry needs and it was it's educational for me to find out that there again there are companies out there that I like I say are not wringing their hands going oh what are we going to do they've taken this this situation uh by the by the horns and are and are doing something about it and that's that's gratifying considering you know where we are uh the industry is small uh it and it's it is it's family like in its in its atmosphere uh and I think that while competing for maybe for different contracts there's not one operator out here that wouldn't give a hand to another one uh just to make sure that he stays in business and would do something. You'll do it you'll do it uh it it's gratifying and those are the good things and and that's what uh you know having put in all these years into into the business it's nice to see that uh it's what's going on behind me is gonna be good. Obviously I got more of my career behind me than I do ahead of me unless I'm gonna live to be 150.

SPEAKER_07 46:09

Jeffrey you guys have big you've become a model in the industry. I don't know about that I mean you you guys are impressive we we're talking about coming up with solutions and and and like Mike said you guys have a solution you're you're not waiting and trying to figure this out you're actively doing something so how with that in mind what can other folks do or what suggestions or ideas do you have to move that needle to to help us retain and recruit more folks as we go forward.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

If you're passionate about rotorcraft maintenance then be sure to check out vertical's new Instagram channel at vertical.mro ensuring all things related to helicopter maintenance repair and overhaul from the latest podcast episodes to conference updates and even epic photography vertical MRO is dedicated to supporting advancing rotorcraft maintenance the backbone of our industry I think it's it's just like Mike says like things like this certainly are will help and then just getting out there and working with this the high schools and and just knowing that you're always going to need people I mean it the business cannot run without people so you know I think it's just you know it's just like we do maintenance planning. It's still it's it's I think it's like you have to do people planning and figure that out for a long term and really not just next year. I think it's like you know it what are we what's it going to look like in 10 years because that number of 6000 AMEs are going to be needed by 2040 that's a big number. So I think you know if we can just do a little bit better job of that. I mean with a work-life balance what happened like some of us would know is we used to go out in the summertime and work three months at a time and you used to budget 1.2 mechanics per helicopter now it's it's two mechanics per helicopter and two pods per helicopter so you know that's really expediting some of the shortage that's going on so how do we how do we expedite getting people in it it's a it's it's it's gonna take a it's gonna take an investment and a lot of work I think and maybe you know I think through COVID and stuff I think we took a bit of a back seat to it and and maybe took our foot off the gas a bit because the world is quite has been a bit uncertain but I think you know we you have to put your foot on the gas on this one. It people are everything.

SPEAKER_07 48:24

Absolutely you know when you look to the future of where our industry is going outside of the issues surrounding recruitment what do you guys see for the future of of helicopter maintenance?

SPEAKER_04 48:35

That's a super broad question to ask but I'll open it up and I don't know if any one of you wants to start well it it's where's the crystal ball I mean and I don't think you'll disagree when I say uh UAVs are gonna be uh take a bite out of our industry uh for sure but on the maintenance side they still need to be fixed right that's Mike Holmes uh if you're a Canadian you know who Mike Holmes is he always said we're if we're gonna build it we're always gonna have to fix it so that's the saving grace to some context about uh uh being on the maintenance side and repair and overhaul side is those aircraft even though they're UAVs um are still gonna need uh maintenance so that's a benefit that's the big challenge in the future I think is how that transition is a paradigm shift is going to occur in regards to uh people uh especially even pilots I mean pilot won't be sitting in the airplane they'll be sitting at home on a joystick you know are you guys integrating that type of training into your programs as it relates to to drone repair and overhaul we aren't but I know that you guys are right yeah at SAIT offers a uh our pass program um where we teach uh drone pilots the the maintenance side of it is still uh to be determined there are a lot of thresholds that are are they approaching in terms of categories of heavier helic uh drones but um you know at this point um we're waiting on framework from Transport Canada the regulators to to really understand this I know the US created a special category uh powered air vehicles to uh to create that separation from aircraft for the EV tolls so that's it's gonna introduce a level of complexity there they're they're miles ahead of us or the regulatory side of it is uh is a little behind it's it will be a disruptive technology but I don't ever see robots replacing an AFCU on a 212.

SPEAKER_05 50:31

It's just not going to happen. So we're we'll always be needed and and you can't replace yourself sitting up in that helicopter looking at something or you know hems or any of the tourist uh type of operations it you just won't replace it. So I I see the the role of helicopter maintenance will be around for a very long time. Um now what capacity and what demand that we have in the industry that may shift a little but we're I think we're fairly insulated for for quite some time.

SPEAKER_07 50:59

Yeah it's interesting on the on the concept and topic of drones I think there's a lot of pilots who fear exactly what you're saying it's going to replace the job but I I view it as more of a complimentary role that they're gonna place in in particular public safety. Those drones can do things in public safety that manned aviation can't do and vice versa. So I think it'll be a complimentary role as it relates to that and I'll be excited to see how that goes forward. But like you said I don't see it as a uh competition to take jobs away more of a complimentary thing and in figuring out and learn how do we utilize those to make ourselves more effective and efficient as as we go forward. Absolutely Jeff back to you you know again outside of recruitment where do you see the maintenance industry going as we go forward?

SPEAKER_03 51:41

I think technology is evolving and for uh and I think that's part of what has to make it exciting for people coming into the industry especially new and coming from schools that you know there's there's still the legacy aircraft out there that are still always going to be out there but I we in Canada we are seeing more and more like newer helicopters and the odd new one out there. And I think that's um important to to keep interest in in even your current workforce so that they're you they they have something new to work on and and I think companies need to look at that and owners need to look at that and how does that that that's part of just the part of the equation as well is not is keeping the interest moving and the technology and giving getting the tools to be able to do that and and providing the training. So I think we're sort of evolving a bit in Canada here with some newer technology and newer aircraft which is which is great.

SPEAKER_07 52:41

Yeah the increased technology and these these new tools require a wider breadth of knowledge and you know it's computers. Computers see how that wider breadth of knowledge is is tackled as as we go. Mike for you what do you where do you see the the industry going as we move forward?

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Well that's interesting you bring up the drones and and you know they've invaded our airspace um and I think they caught the regulatory agencies off guard when they all of a sudden showed up and you know you could you could go into the hobby shop buy a drone take it out and now you are totally responsible for its maintenance for its learning all of the rules on how it should fly uh it's totally your responsibility and a lot of these guys couldn't spell drone when they walked in there but they bought one for their kid and now here they are responsible for it. And you've got a whole group full of people that maybe aren't or weren't aviation oriented when they got started. And they would be the ones that oh look at that helicopter let me send my drone up there to fly next to him so I can get a picture for Johnny. Trust me it happens. This is the this is what the FAA this is what uh Air Transport Canada is fighting and there's believe it or not last time I looked there's about two million of these little drones floating around there is a place for them but we are going to have to incorporate them into our industry uh in a friendly manner because they can do uh a lot of good things and and they can help maintenance wise it's still there's no control over that there's no because they're not certified aircraft the small drones are not certified so who's gonna maintain the direction on maintenance they have to be maintained and and the best thing you can do is treat them like a like a rotor craft and maintain them accordingly that way but the experience level that's a your responsibility I guess is to figure out you know what kind of training you can offer to somebody who's got a drone.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

Absolutely yeah and you know you look at some of the new Eve TOL technology that's coming up Archer Aviation is gonna is going to uh pilot a flight uh in Dubai in January 2026 so it's gonna be groundbreaking in terms of that that's gonna be the next phase it'll be 2030 before we ever see it in Canada uh but those those aircraft like a beta aviation evital has 28 moving parts on it that's it so they're very they're very simplistic in that respect um but the framework around maintaining that um there'll always be a need for somebody to replace the rotors or change the the uh the motors or replace batteries um and do the do those checks the airframe checks and whatnot but there's there's so they last forever and I think it gives people a uh an idea of uh complacency that this thing uh uh yeah it looks good to me launch it again and that I think is an issue that uh we need to address and make sure that again they fall into some kind of an inspection regime absolutely yeah I think as as drones progress a lot of times there's more questions that we have than answers for those questions but as we close out I'll ask you guys one one final question and Dale we'll start with you um advice you have for the student who's about to enter the program about to enter this career field how do you enter this industry and have a successful career where at the end of your career you walk out like Mike you're you're happy you're healthy you have a passion to be here that we all have today just like he said pick up the phone talk to all the people here everybody here has a story they're here because of rotary they're here because of helicopters everybody in this room has a story they could tell about the industry and how it's affected them and and why it was the pathway that they choose and and why uh they're they're happy you know we hear all these great stories I sat in gravel pits for 14 hours a day for two hour minimums as well so there's the other side of the coin on top of there but the passion of what a great job it is is uncomparable.

SPEAKER_04 56:52

So we talk to our students you know come in and see us we'll we'll show you the educational side and what you're gonna do but we always encourage them give Jeff a call give uh KF Arrow a call get out there they they're more than willing to show you what the industry side of things looks like so um if you're passionate about it you got to talk to people you got to ask people um and and find out what really is going to fit for you. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Yeah Jeff I it's pretty much what Dale says I think the the industry builds passion. Like it that's really for me it's been in you know in this industry and it just provides so many opportunities and it kind of feels you know you see a lot of people you haven't you know you don't see all the time but they come back to things like this. It's almost like you know it's almost like family our industry a bit um even though sometimes somewhat we're competitors in some ways but we can put that all aside and still come back here and and and really you know sit and and have a have a beer and and and discuss things in a in a small personal manner. And I think that's part of why our industry is different than the fixed wing.

SPEAKER_07 58:04

Yeah that that community aspect of it's huge. Yes you know it's been really cool to to sit here and listen to the chat or the conversation I think we envisioned this being a place where people come and exchange ideas just like you guys talked about how do we move this this industry forward it's through conversations. It's over a beer it's over a beer napkin with a a weird idea that just seems to work out I'd be very curious to see as we move forward how many of those ideas that were born here spread across the world and really change the industry in a positive way. So to your point I'm I'm very excited about that. I I do agree communication is a huge part of our ability to to grow as a community to solve some of the problems we have so it was really inspiring and motivating for me to hear the conversation to see the networking that's happening here. It's been it's been awesome. So thank you for for illustrating that for us.

SPEAKER_05 58:50

Tristan you know my uh my words to to a lot of the graduates as they left the facility was to stay committed there'll be tough days there'll be fun days there'll be long days uh but the the reward at the end of it uh is is worth it in in my opinion I think it's probably one of the greatest career paths in aviation and I've spent 20 years in the helicopter business it's uh it's phenomenal it's um you see the world you could do exciting things but it does come with hard days does come with the long days but stay committed and uh right here today you you see a community that wants to see the success in in those folks and so the when they do have a hard day it's it's remember that you know you were in those shoes at one point in time and and it can get tough but um stick with it and uh see it through because it's it's worth it.

SPEAKER_07 59:39

Well this concludes the the last panel we we've had here for for this conference thank you guys so much for for coming and joining and let's give these guys a hands up thanks Sean thank you guys stand by for a message after a word from our sponsors thank you to our sponsor Metro Aviation Metro Aviation the world's largest family owned air medical operator offers comprehensive aircraft services with 140 plus aircraft in over 25 states.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

The completion center installs medical and law enforcement kits and avionics serving diverse aviation needs including offshore utility VIP and corporate sectors thanks to our sponsor Airbus Airbus provides the most efficient helicopter solutions to its customers who serve, protect save lives and safely carry passengers in demanding environments its civil and military helicopters are flying all over the world making missions possible visit airbus.com for more information if you're passionate about rotorcraft maintenance then be sure to check out vertical's new Instagram channel at vertical.mro things related to helicopter maintenance return overhaul the latest podcast episodes to conference updates and even epic photography are vertical MROs dedicated to supporting advancing rotorcraft maintenance the backbone of our industry