From Alaska Flying to Aviation Safety Leadership | Mike Kunkel - Part II - Ep: 106

Welcome to the Vertical MRO Podcast, brought to you by HeliCASTS and in partnership with Vertical Plus.

In Part II of this conversation, Ronnie continues the discussion with Mike Kunkel of PG&E on the realities of building and sustaining a just culture in aviation operations.

The episode focuses on the challenges organizations face when trying to move from compliance-driven safety programs toward environments built on trust, accountability, and open communication. Mike shares lessons learned from aviation safety management, including common leadership mistakes that can discourage reporting and weaken safety culture over time.

The conversation also explores the importance of feedback loops, workforce engagement, and creating systems that encourage continuous learning instead of blame.

For aviation professionals across maintenance and operations, this episode provides practical insight into the human side of safety and the long-term work required to build resilient teams.

Special thanks to this episode's sponsors, Rotorcraft Support Inc and Metro Aviation.

Also, be sure to check out Vertical MRO's Instagram channel for even more awesome content highlighting the awesome work being done to keep the rotorcraft community flying!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Vertical MRO podcast, where we dive into the world of helicopter maintenance, repair, and overhaul. In each episode, we talk with the technicians, engineers, and experts who keep helicopters flying. Because at the end of the day, no maintenance, no mission.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

So I've overheard at dinner parties someone say something like, Oh, they're such a good pilot. And I'm like, really? Because, you know, as as a member of the public, what defines good to you? Were they were they hot dogging and that made it a good pilot for you? Were they super straight and level and it was the most boring flight you've ever been on in your life, and they were a good pilot? Like, what is it? And I think an extension of that definition is the hero AMT is not the one that works that 17th hour after 16 hours. The hero AMT for me is the one after feeling those effects of fatigue and noticing this is the seventh yawn that they've had in the last hour, right? And they start doing the dirty dozen and they start looking at these and they're like, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop here and I will continue in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

That's the hero AMP. Welcome to the Vertical MRO Podcast, brought to you by Helicast and in partnership with Vertical Plus. In part two of this conversation, Ronnie continues the discussion with Mike Kunkel of PG ⁇ E on the realities of building and sustaining a just culture in aviation operations. The episode focuses on the challenges organizations face when trying to move from compliance-driven safety programs toward environments built on trust, accountability, and open communication. Mike shares lessons learned from aviation safety management, including common leadership mistakes that can discourage reporting and weaken safety culture over time. The conversation also explores the importance of feedback loops, workforce engagement, and creating systems that encourage continuous learning instead of blame. For aviation professionals across maintenance and operations, this episode provides practical insight into the human side of safety and the long-term work required to build resilient teams. Special thanks to this episode's sponsors, Rotocraft Support Inc. and Metro Aviation.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Welcome to part two of our conversation. If you missed part one, you can find it in our previous episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

So going into that just culture, where do you see organizations most commonly get it wrong? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Well, so this line of justice, it's tough. As soon as you draw that line, you've got two sides. And so when there are events, they belong on one side or the other, because you just drew a line. Okay, cool. So is it more important? Ryan, let me ask you a question. Do you think it's more important to have a clear line for that line of justice? Or do you think it's more important who sets it?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Well, I wish I could give the answer that there's no real clear line. It's a gray line, right? It it's always um if we see everything as as black and white, then it's black and white in the aspect of who is the colorblind person. Yeah. And and what I mean by that is too often in society, helicopters are not, right? We're always looking for the axe to fall and someone to blame, right? And unfortunately, we we take a look at we were talking about commercial operations, obviously, the the incident that just happened um on the runway with Air Canada, right? A mistake. And an absolutely you know, a mistake that just uh it seemed to be very unnecessary, but people are overworked, they have too many different things going on. You know, is it the mistake of the person who said, I made a mistake to a pilot, and the pilot pilot said you were doing the best that you could, right? Is is the culture around that from the SMS uh of what caused that mistake to happen, right? We all want to blame somebody, but at the end of the day, there it's it's it's black and white, it's not black and white. It's it's there's a lot of gray around this. And and working through what that just culture system is and SMS, I mean, it's going to cause a lot of reflection, you know, potentially all the way up to the politicians of making sure people are getting funded and hired and and not working however many hours of over time. So I don't know if I answered your question, Mike, but to me it's it's not black and white, it's about as many shades as gray, 50 shades of gray.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Well, I don't know if that's safety, but anyways, um yeah, no, it was a good answer. I will tell you the science, because I'm cheating, because I kind of swim in these waters a lot. The science says it's much more important who sets that line. Now you're right, it does need to be clear. But here's another example. So as an AMT, when you perform work on a helicopter, it says you've got to have the AMM open, right? So that you can reference the AMM for the procedure that you're doing. Makes perfect sense. Okay. Take a transmission out of an EC-135. So now you're on scaffolding, right? You're 20 feet in the air, you've got an overhead crane lifting. Where's your AMM? It's on the ground. Oh, it's on the table. Well, it's on the table 35 feet away, but it's open. Now, is that legal? So if you have a group of AMTs that are setting that line, that group is smart enough and savvy enough to say, yeah, that's legal. I mean, that's not a violation. They're doing they're complying in the way that they can. If you had a pilot or someone else who's not familiar at all with maintenance, they could accidentally look at that and go, well, yeah, no, they're they can't read 35 feet away. So that's um and yeah, I really appreciate you bringing up the LaGuardia incident because that I can't believe the amp that the um the controller stayed on afterwards for as long as they did. And and to have that pilot give that feedback, right? Because the emergency was with United, right? That's really where things started going south, is they were trying to respond to another emergency, and unfortunately, it created a second emergency. So I love the grace of that pilot. Uh, we in aviation are so hard on ourselves all the time. I don't know if I've ever met someone who wasn't critical of the flights when they landed or the mate, you know, themselves when they when they closed the cowl for the last time. I uh one of my favorite moments is uh as the night pilot, the uh base AMT who had done maintenance that day, driving away, you know, I'd get a phone call from them, hey, I hate to ask, but can you go to the aircraft? Can you just make sure that I did this, this, and this? I love that. Like, yeah, it's done. They've they've inspected it, I've inspected it. It's basically like an R double I, but they still wanted to know, hey, did can you please just make sure that I safety that correctly and, you know, or whatever it is, you know, torque stripe, whatever. Happy to do it because again, we're very tough on ourselves in aviation.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

So you are you previously I saw you do a presentation at the Aerial Work, VAI Area Work Safety Conference about just culture. I know you'll be doing some presentations, I think, in a couple of vertical MRO um conferences, I think, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah, yeah. Coming up in Kelowna in is that uh October? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

October. And then if you're coming to Irving, um not sure that you know, I highly recommend coming to to see Mike. He's a very dynamic presenter from that perspective, um, and he's overall a great guy. But with with the just culture, um, you know, we were talking about leadership and and how that is. Can you give our audience a kind of a story or example of a just culture example and kind of walk through how this should actually work for somebody?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, yeah, great. So we're very fortunate uh when I first came to PGE Aviation, uh, I inquired about the possibility of setting up an ASAP-MSAP program. Yeah, a lot of acronyms there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Aviation Safety Action Program for Pilots and Maintenance Safety Action Program for the AMTs. And it's a signed MOU or a memorandum of understanding with the local FISDO that if you submit a report to this program, your certificate will be protected if it's accepted. Now that's great. The FAA gets information about how things are actually going on, and they're not using a hammer as their first tool, right? So have a great example of this. The uh the pilot there was a pilot that was bringing a helicopter to another base. As they shut down, uh the base mechanic came out, you know, and they were talking, and the pilot said, Oh, I never like flying this one. And the base mechanic was like, Why? He's like, it's cramped. Okay, well, anyways, it is there you need anything from me? No? Okay, cool, good night. All right, bye. Well, the base AMT, God bless them, they were like, hmm, why does it feel cramped? These are all the same, and just started doing a kind of inspection a little bit of the aircraft and noticed that the pedals were installed the other way around. And so obviously we need to figure this out. I mean, how how did that happen? When did it happen? I mean, there's obviously a lot of consequences to that. It's flight controls, right? So uh AMT submitted an M MSAP. Um, the event review committee went through this and we're like, wow, this is great. I mean, great in the sense that we're gonna learn something from this. And uh when the AMM was opened up, that particular diagram. If I sh if I showed you a diagram of an aircraft on paper, where would you assume the nose would be?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

You normally think it's on the left-hand side.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Uh, and because it's not always clear, they normally uh OEMs put in an arrow on the drawing to show which way the nose is. And for the pedals, they didn't. So here we have an AMT installing these correctly because for from their standpoint, that is how they go in. It doesn't show from the OEM any other way. And so looking at just culture here, right? Because I think the ASAP program and the MSAP just embody this. We don't want to punish you. We are not hunting AMTs, we're not hunting pilots, we're not hunting dispatchers. We would rather know what's going on out there and solve and look at the system than the individual.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Are there any differences in either implementing or executing a just culture between the pilot and the maintenance organizations?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Absolutely. So much so that as the ASAP manager, I would run an event review committee with the FAA for pilots, and then I would run a separate event review committee for the AMTs with the FAA. And um I remember in our program for efficiencies, we once tried to bring them together. Didn't quite work that well because uh neither one of those two groups feels comfortable enough commenting on the other's reports. We we don't have that basis of knowledge to determine what good looks like, let alone set that line of justice. I mean, that's that's a huge responsibility. So for AMT reports, the AMTs are involved with the FA in setting that line of justice, and for the pilots, same thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

So then what are what are the pressures that maintainers are feeling or seeing as compared to pilots?

SPEAKER_01 12:38

So good. So one of the things I noticed in the ASAP program is that we had about a seven to one ratio of submitted reports. Seven to one. Seven to one. So seven more ASAPs than MSAPs. And I was like, oh no, did the AMTs not trust us? Do the AMTs not trust the program? Did they not understand the program? Like, what's going on? And I I I kind of went out and you know, found a one of my many trusted confidants and just kind of floated that balloon, and they said, Well, I think it has to do more of the nature of the work. So as a pilot, I'm doing 150 miles an hour, it's a very dynamic scenario. I get thrown curveballs, I do my best, I don't crash, I land, and then you tell me afterwards I violated a reg. Okay, sorry, I was trying to be as safe as I could, you know what I mean? Yeah, AMTs have uh challenges for sure, but they also have some of the luxuries of you know phoning a friend, uh sometimes working within a group, right? Um if you're in a hangar or a 145 scenario, um but sometimes you're the only AMT on duty, right? And so I think I would say distraction is a tough one. I don't have my phone out when I'm flying, obviously. Um I have my iPad, which has got four flight, which is sort of like a phone, but like I think AMTs, I mean, we all have families, life happens while we're working, right? And so it takes discipline to be able to, you know, when you're in the middle of a maintenance procedure and your phone rings and you see it's your wife, it's like, okay, so I do need to answer that. But if I have a bolt that's halfway in and halfway out, I need to make a decision. Either I take that bolt all the way out and remove it and then go call my wife back, or I continue to to install the bolt, torque it, and then go call my wife back. Right. And I think those kinds of things, it's it's it's very there's a lot on the line in every single operation that AMT does. And I think that leads to the second piece, which is you know mental health, which is a big uh consideration for you know the maintainers. It's it's a huge uh it's a huge component to the daily work, and I think organizations are starting to look at that now, which is great. Like, yeah, you have one AMT at a base, okay, but when you're doing heavy maintenance, you're gonna need more than one, right? You're gonna need either fly the aircraft to a heated or cooled facility and have a team there for that heavy maintenance. Um, it's not the same, right? Um, and to kind of recognize that. And then you mentioned earlier, you know, shortage of AMTs. I think it's so important for organizations to build a mentorship kind of program so that the junior AMTs can can move along in their system, right? And you can have apprentices that uh can log the maintenance that they're doing. Yeah, I think those are are some of the challenges.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

How does blame culture typically show up in the MRO environment?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I've never made that mistake, so you shouldn't have made that mistake. That's kind of everyone's first pass at events. Sure. No one's innocent of that. I think we're all guilty of that. I think that's normal. I think it's important to have you know groups and leadership trust to work through those initial emotions, because we got that, and then take deep breaths and then start asking questions about okay, why did this happen?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Can you give um a real world example of an operator that maybe maybe you work with all the time that that you see a good maintenance culture? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, because the culture isn't really tested until there's something that happens, right? An event, right? That's when you really see the culture.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Do you have any uh an event or a particular operator that you know you you saw and you're like, man, that was like I'm it's bad that that happened, but I'm glad it was that operator that that had it happen because of you know what they did with it from their SMS perspective or anything else.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

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SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, I mean, it's this is this is a story that I don't have any anything bad as a specific, but I will say that um you know Joe Tierno, who's the program manager AMT for the Hawks, what an amazing, what an amazing man, and just a consummate professional. When you see that as the leader, you know that that's how all the AMTs are going to work on the UH60s and even beyond, right? In in that organization. So it doesn't really tie back to an event, other than the fact that I mean it's sort of a constant a constant uh improvement that I see there and a commitment to safety, and and um they have their own SMS and we have our SMS and and they interface, right, to the point that if if there's uh an event on our property, then they submit a report to us and it goes into our SMS, but they have a report in their SMS as well. And so the the two systems tie that together in that way, but the conclusions are often very, very similar. Um we have to give that grace to the operators because the output is going to be specific to the size of the organization, right? And the culture of the organization, and um we need to kind of respect that as close as we feel we are to them as partners, there still has to be some space there.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

So a part of I uh in your role as an SMS and Just Culture and various other things, uh you know, part of part of the thing that speaks to my heart about you, Mike, is you kind of like data, uh a little bit of data, maybe a lot of data. And and in your role, can you talk about the different types of data that you deal with all the time? Because you have FDM data, you have Hums data, you have weather data, you have all this kind of like what what is your role in an SMS program manager? What kind of data are you looking at all the time?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

So the airlines have something called FOKWA. Another acronym. It's been over 30 seconds, so I needed another one. FOQA, so it's flight operation quality assurance. So the airlines have a much more formal system for this. So this is the black box, the cockpit voice recorder, all the flight parameters. That goes into a focal program with the gatekeeper. It's FAA protected, it's redacted. Um and so for us, since we're not part 121, uh, we run what's called an FDM program, which is flight data monitoring, the health and usage monitoring system as well. So uh we have partnered with two amazing companies. Uh for Hums, we use GPMS, and for the FDM, we use Apario. And so there's a lot of data coming in in that respect. The data is treated uh with a tremendous amount of respect because there are human beings associated with that, not only the pilot, but when you when it comes to hum's data, you know, vibrations and you know, again, let me brag about Joe Tierno, he is our eyes and ears for Hums. Uh I I log into GPMS as well to see what's going on, kind of just to keep a tab on it. But that man is on it. I think he shared with me some really interesting successes there. So I think um there was a lot of interest of this in the 70s or 80s with the North Sea and the oil and gas.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

80s to 90s, yep. Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, very high profile offshore incidents. Um, you know, even in the mid 2000s, uh late two 2000s with the uh the Airbus 225, where you know a lot a lot of things have happened, and the implementation of hum systems to detect things well before that they become critical failures was the the entry point into taking what was traditionally a military. Very focused technology and bring it into the commercial world.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah. And and and fortunately, I work at organizations where they see value in that, and we have both the HUMS and the FDM. And I feel like without those two programs, I'd be kind of blind. And just in terms of what's going on with the aircraft, the uh the Aparios in our Cessna 208s as well are caravans. Um, but Joe shared a story recently with me about the the UH60s, where uh I guess the one of the tailrotor gearboxes has a 120-hour inspection, and the uh the the GPMS system picked up a vibration in between those 120-hour inspections that was growing fairly significantly. And would it would we have caught it at that second 120-hour inspection? Absolutely. But it would have done a tremendous amount of damage had we not had um the HU system on that aircraft.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

So what is your role as an SMS program manager? I mean, if those are your aircraft, that's one thing, but how how does this plethora of of data, right? You know, we're talking about FOCOA and the commercial airlines, they have an army of analysts, I'm sure, for each of the United and various other things. Helicopter industry and helicopter operators typically have maybe one person, two if they're lucky, three if they're you know plentiful and then so forth. How how does this work at your your various different subcontractors and and even you as the one, I think, SMS program manager for all of everything? How does all this information come together?

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah, so I try and leverage automation where I can. Right? So Apario and GPMS have have systems set up for alerts because there's no way I can watch all the flights or review all the flights. I should say I don't watch flights, but like you know what I'm saying. Um, and then in terms of the reporting in the SMS, that's looked at. I do watch that daily, and then on a regular basis, I facilitate an SMS meeting with the department head, the director, who's the risk owner, right? And we get together and we look at all the policies, how they're functioning. We look at every single safety report until closure. And we don't we definitely don't value speed of closure, we value quality of closure, right? Because if it if the if the department head wants to keep that report open because it's a long fix, man, that's the kind of commitment you want. You don't want them just closing reports. Then we look at all the audits, and for that, I've definitely started to uh leverage um Microsoft Copilot uh AI. AI. Yep, for some large data sets. Um that's becoming um if you haven't looked into AI, uh it's it's we have a closed AI, right? So we we we're not looking at you know stuff that's like you're not asking the universe to take a look at private data, right? We have a closed AI system so that we can give them some this specific data set and ask for summaries or what were the top what were the top trends, audit findings positive, audit findings negative, right? Because we want to make sure that um we look at not just this not just the the findings but the successes as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

So let's talk about that intersection. You're talking about Hums and FDM and so forth. Um, you know, one of the things that that happens a lot, unfortunately, is when you go do maintenance, uh you're talking about the distractions, right? People make mistakes, things are missed. And you know, these systems can detect those those things that have changed with the step change well before it becomes necessarily critical, but you see an alert happen, right? Something has happened. Now walk us through how you get from that finding to the just culture to the SMS. How do these things actually tie together in a scenario where you see something happen during maintenance and what now?

SPEAKER_01 26:14

So there's an interface between the equipment and the person. Right? So I can't really get mad at a bearing if it's failing. I guess I could, especially if I was on board.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Or the manufacturer of the bearing.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Right, right, but that's not very helpful usually, or a chip light or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

But um, yeah, so somebody didn't tighten a bolt properly, they improperly put it in, etc.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah, that's that's a that's a pretty big jump, right? So so if you have something failing mechanical, that's I think the first layer and the easier layer, right? Now that second layer, which is why is this OEM deficiency? That's where it gets kind of you've got to be sort of respectful and careful when you do that kind of looking. It's okay to ask those questions, and if you have a good culture, leaders can ask those questions or you know, without uh people feeling attacked, right? Um it's you gotta be you gotta be sensitive to it, but you can seek to understand the surrounding context, and I think it's worthwhile because if you found out that I don't know, let's say there was a human error event with an AMT, if that AMT was working 16 hours straight because the company didn't want to get them a hotel, or I'm making this up, by the way. This is completely fictional, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:57

I'm not sure how fictional it is for some people. 16-hour days are long days, but the pressure to get the aircraft flying for the next mission is is there for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah, and and not to demonize companies, uh, individuals put it on themselves. I mean, I've seen pilots put pressure on themselves. I've seen AMTs put pressure on themselves, and it takes someone outside crew member, fuel truck driver, to go, dude, why are you working that hard? I mean, that's a square peg and a round hole. Just let's do it tomorrow. Let's shut down. You know, and that's culture eats policy for breakfast.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

But isn't that a core aspect of the helicopter industry is we have a lot of heroes, right? I mean, you yourself being in the air medical and public safety and and you know the the pressure, you know, firefighting with PG ⁇ E, right? It's it's it's knowing that for many of our operators and the people listening, what they do every day saves lives and saves property.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

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SPEAKER_01 29:14

Right. So it comes down to redefining hero. So, you know, I've overheard at dinner parties someone say something like, Oh, they're such a good pilot. And I'm like, really? Because, you know, as as a member of the public, what defines good to you? Were they were they hot dogging and that made it a good pilot for you? Were they super straight and level and it was the most boring flight you've ever been on in your life, and they were a good pilot? Like what is it? And I think an extension of that definition is the hero AMT is not the one that works that 17th hour after 16 hours. The hero AMT for me is the one after feeling those effects of fatigue and noticing this is the seventh yawn that they've had in the last hour, right? And they start doing the dirty dozen and they start looking at these and they're like, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna stop here and I will continue in the morning. That's the hero AMT.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

I I think that's a great point, Mike, right? It's knowing your your limits, and you were talking about um you know work-life balance and so forth. At the end of the day, it's knowing that somebody is flying in that aircraft, somebody is flying below that aircraft, and knowing when to say it's done for the day is a critical aspect on on how we build that that safety culture and that just culture.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

So now we have the culture aspect, we have the people, the processes, the data, they're all coming together. At the end of the day, it's about trust, isn't it, Mike?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Uh it's a piece of it. It's knowing that you're gonna call your boss and you know what they're gonna tell you. I I saw this great quote recently about the culture that you have on your company is not something you have on your walls. It's how your people feel on Sunday night. It's a pretty powerful statement. And uh Yeah, right, because I mean I yeah, Ryan, I don't know a lot of your history. We've met, uh obviously, which has been great, but like, have you worked at companies when you were younger where it was like, man, this isn't really a very good company? Uh or and no names, obviously, but have you had those Sunday nights where you're like, oh, I don't want to go in tomorrow?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

You know, you talk about leaders, you know, being one of those core foundations, right? It starts from the top. The the thing that I've had throughout my career is that I've had it from the top, but when that top layer moves on, was it there in the next layer down? Right? It's you know, you're you're mentioning Joe Tierno. Joe Joe is an amazing person. I don't always know the next layer down from Joe, right? Was that person down from Joe, you know, listening and learning from everything and building that culture to was ingrained into what that person is. So as that next level of apprentice moves up, it is is that sustaining culture? You know, that that's a that's a question.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

It is. It is. I'm honored to be able to attend InfoShare uh every year.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Can you explain what that is for folks?

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, yeah. So InfoShare is an FAA meeting. It is the Super Bowl if you're a safety person, but it's also very private, so no vendors allowed. There are ten commandments, which you have to wear on your ID badge, which is the largest ID badge I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Uh and I'll is it a thou shall list and instead of a thou shall not list?

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Uh yeah, no, it's it's a it's an expectation list. But I remember the first time I went, I was I saw this ID badge. I'm like, come on, guys, get it. Are you serious? What is this? And then when I saw the security at every door, I was like, oh, oh, okay. So they're making the IDs this big so the security can tell if you're allowed in or not. And it, you know, just this definite vibe of like, whoa, you know, like this is like you're not allowed to have, you're not basically you do not want to touch your cell phone at all. Don't have them out on the table, don't don't touch them. And I thought, wow, this is really strict. And then uh when the meeting started and they started showing footage, I was like, oh these are these are events that are not flattering. And these are these have to do with very large organizations within aviation in the United States. I'll just say that. And half of the people in the room are FAA. And it's a really interesting thing to see because if we don't share like that, we will never improve. So we have to share the regulators seal all the dirty laundry. I mean, there's no one's perfect, right? But they also get to see the washing machine and the soap that we're using and the dryer sheets we're using and the new washing machine we just bought. I mean, they get to see all of the parts of that process. So, yeah, there are mistakes that we make. Um, but the the systems that the 121 operators are using, um, I I get about a year's worth of work every time I go to InfoShare. Uh, and I spread that out over a year of you know what I'm able to do, because like you said, safety departments are usually on the smaller side. Um, and so if the entrance to InfoShare is to be part of the voluntary program, you talk about data, right? So you either have an ASAP program or you have FOCOA or you have some voluntary program that you give data to the FAA and they allow you to come to InfoShare.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

So since we're we're we're talking about high level, you know, the highest levels of the FA and info sharing and and and so forth, um, and the safety culture. If you walked into a company tomorrow and could change one thing to improve their safety culture, like immediately, what what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah, so impossible question, because I do want to comment that culture changes slowly. It it can change, but it changes slowly. And the higher up you are in the organization, the greater chance that you have to change the organization. And so when you talk about a CEO, they have they have a mandate, right? That's most CEOs' mandate is to look at culture. Uh, you know, and again, I just want to put a plug-in for Patty Poppy. She when she came to PG ⁇ E, we had a lot of things wrong in our organization, and over the last five years, she has dramatically changed us. And it's fantastic. Like it's when she started, one of the things she kept saying was leading with love. I'll let you guess how that went over at a utility, leading with love, the first time we heard it. There were a lot of confused faces, right?

unknown 36:43

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Probably more expected in the state of California with the hippie culture back in the San Francisco and various other things. But many places probably is not the way that it goes over. Generating power every day, keep the lights on. I don't care about the rest.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, as we started to hear that message more and more and started kind of asking ourselves that question and and you know, getting more clarity from her, you know, as she leads, right? When you see someone on the job site and they're not wearing their hard hat, and you go, hey man, do you need a hard hat? I got an extra one. That's leading with love. You know what I mean? It's it's about, yeah, you're giving grace, but you're holding, you're holding each of your coworkers to a high standard to make sure that everyone goes home at the end of the day. So we do a lot of work actually with uh our aviation insurance folks. And um when I first started working with them, I you know, there was a little thought, oh, they've never heard of Part 5, they've never heard of Isbeo, I'm gonna wow them, I'm gonna show them that we're auditing to these international standards and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

You're gonna do five paragraphs with nothing but acronyms.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Right, right. And fortunately, I had the sense to not talk first and just kind of listen first to what they're doing, and man, they blew my socks off because I asked them when you go in to evaluate an aviation company, what's the first thing you look at? You know what they said? Well, we show up, we'd go there. That's first because what we're looking for is culture. I just about freaked out. I was like, oh my god, they get this. Like, they're not messing around with what your audit results were or how pretty your manuals are or any of that. They're like going, they're going right in there, and they're like, so tell me about your boss. You know what I mean? And just like just having those conversations and evaluate, and it's amazing. You can quickly tell from the culture, that's gonna set the tone for the whole rest of the audit.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

So, so how do you uh putting your uh your schwami magic ball in front of you? How do you think safety culture is going to change for helicopter operators over the next five years?

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Well, the fact that we're talking about culture is a good sign. I recently had a good conversation with Joe, or I should say the last good conversation with Joe that I had, you know, we were talking about this, and he said, Hey Mike, don't forget like 10 years ago, the utility industry, we were not talking like this. We were not talking about culture, we were not talking fatigue, we were not talking about we were talking about how can I fix this problem, regardless of the cost, kind of thing. Like that was that kind of like get it done, jump down on that ditch, get it dug, you know, rub some dirt on it, do whatever would do whatever you need to keep going, right? And we're now talking airline stuff, we're talking, you know, FDM and homes and and culture and surveys and audits and reporting, and it's a complete shift from 10 years ago, and I I couldn't agree more with him.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

I think that that's un unfortunately I I've said this for years. If if something was new in the fixed-wing world 20 years ago, it is brand new to the helicopters now, right? So so where were fixed wing operations 10 or 5 years ago and looking five years, what what you know, you're talking about FOQA and FDM. Like, do you do you see any major shifts? You know, obviously the FA and NTSB and various other uh organizations all um recommend the latest acronyms and so forth, but really what is that next step for you know small a small operator versus a large operator in the next five or ten years? What's what's the next jump for them?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

If you're passionate about rotorcraft maintenance, then be sure to check out vertical's new Instagram channel at vertical.mro. Turn all things related to helicopter maintenance, return overhaul, the latest podcast episodes to conference updates, and even epic photography. Vertical MRO is dedicated to supporting and advancing rotorcraft maintenance. The backbone of our industry.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, so so you've gotta get the balloon off the ground, you've got to focus on the basics and get your SMS running. That last stage, though, where you're sort of improving your SMS based off of what you're seeing, that circle of data and and process improvement and data collection and process improvement and data collection. There's no end to that circle. Like it's it's job security for me, which did it. I'm glad safety's never done, otherwise, you know. But you know, it's it's it's such a fantastic question, Ronnie. I really appreciate it because that's really kind of where InfoShare comes in. Because when I see American struggling with something and United, and they're talking to Boeing, and Boeing's struggling with something, I mean, Boeing is 140,000 people with three separate divisions. It's like I've taken so many good ideas from Boeing.

SPEAKER_02 42:25

So how does that roll into the helicopter industry, right? We we we we've we've created different, we've tried as an industry to create different data sharing programs on FDM and various other things to Heli Offshore, I think, does a very good job for the offshore oil and gas. But as an industry, what can we do to improve that and be the info sharer for the helicopter industry?

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Well, that's that's a fantastic question. Uh I I definitely want to give a shout-out to Lee Roskoff for USHST. I don't know if you're familiar with the United States helicopter safety team. Lee has done an unbelievable job. Uh he's uh FAA. He takes FAA data and NTSB data and does his magic. And if you haven't been to the USHST website, I highly recommend it. It's got it's it's the benchmark for everything that we look at in terms of measuring our risk, right? There's quite a bit of stuff for AMTs on that as well. Dirty dozens and so forth. Yeah, yeah. And but you know, it's tough to get into like the maintenance data. Um we can split accidents out into causes in terms of pilot versus AMT versus you know, OEM type where the failure was, but then kind of but that is maturing, and Lee has done more for that site in the last two. Years than ever before. We've never had a system like that for a repository. The airlines do. It's called MITRE, and it's a massive system. It's run by the FAA. It's an independent third party. And there is an effort. The last info share I was at, Air Methods. I don't know, you're are you familiar with Air Methods?

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Largest air medical operator in the United States.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Yeah. They have a lot of FDM data. So they're knocking on MITRE's door saying, Do you guys want this? You know, and they're like, well. And and it's it's a it's really interesting to watch them like, does that deserve its own database for helicopter operations? Sure. Because it's it's really apples and oranges. Right? When you look at MITRE and you can see, okay, at DFW, this runway, there were this many missed approaches. Okay, cool. If I'm Southwest, that means something to me. If I'm a helicopter operator, that doesn't really mean much to me. Right. Right? So it it the data has to be germane to your operation. And so I would like to see in the next couple years helicopter operators being able to put their FOKWA or FDM or Hums data in a repository that's redacted and not punitive, set up very much like MITRE, where the FA sponsors it and pays for it, but it's a third party and the FA doesn't really get access to it. The operators do from an aggregate standpoint. Excellent. Because when you get this when you get the big parts SMS down, right, and you've reduced almost all the risk, there's this concept called a LARP. Have you ever heard of ALARP?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Another one of your acronyms, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Are we scoring is someone scoring this? How many acronyms we get to draw? Do I get to I win the prize, right? If I get the mostpot. Okay. A LARP is as low as reasonably possible. Because in aviation, risk is never zero. But it's it's that last couple percent reduction of risk that's really hard because you've knocked out a lot of this stuff. And you know, the the event at LaGuardia, I mean, what are the odds? Like it's it there's no way that would have happened if there hadn't been an emergency, an act of emergency already happening.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

I don't know if you know the size of LaGuardia, but 644 acres, it's a very small airport. So it's not like DFW where they can, you know, they didn't have any open gates. So this United that was having emergence, there was nowhere to put them. If there was an open gate, that truck would never have needed to run out there. So we are getting better. And we are implementing the ideas that work that we know work because we can see the data that they work.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Any final thoughts for our listeners, Mike? Any words of advice on just culture or SMS or just being an operator or an AMT going into work, you know, thinking about work Sunday night. Any any last things on your mind that that you're like, you know what, I I I if I could get this one thing out, this is what I would tell everybody.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah, I I would just say, you know, it's an amazing opportunity that we have to work in this industry. And you're tremendously valuable. Nothing flies without you. Um, and with that responsibility comes that time when, you know, if you're with a 145, you have some nice protection above you in terms of certificate, right? But every AMT I've met, they take a huge uh they there's a large recognition of the weight that's on their shoulders in terms of you know the gravity of their job. And it's not always easy to speak up, but you know what right looks like. Just, you know, I I've always appreciated, you know, when I s when you see AMTs and organizations function in the correct way when there is an event, I mean it's important to look for those uh organizations. And, you know, it's I think a good idea to build your career towards those organizations.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Be the one to build the safety culture by the one willing to step up and and say things when when things are there. A culture starts with you.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

It does.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Well, thanks for your insight, Mike. Um, for those that uh again have never been to a vertical MRO conference, because it only started last year, uh, he will be presenting again at vertical MRO in Kelowna in British Columbia in in October and at the Irving Vertical MRO in November. Uh his just culture presentation, it's very insightful, very entertaining, and he's a great person to have coffee with afterwards. So, Mike, thank you for joining us today. Uh any final words?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Thank you. Right, this is an amazing uh conference. I think it's unique. I don't think there's anything else like it. The feedback I got from last year, 100% across the board, was amazing, revolutionary, I mean, uh radical, like just fantastically useful. And um, yeah, I hope I hope organizations that listen to this can afford to send you know the DOM or or some AMTs to at least one of those. I think you guys, I think uh Vertical Magazine has chosen those locations not randomly. I think those are very carefully chosen, right, to get the most people here. So I hope I see uh anyone who's listening to this there and uh yeah, look forward to it.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

I looked forward to hopefully seeing you before then, Mike. So thank you all for for joining us on this episode of Vertical MRO. We look forward to hearing from you next week. Stand by for a message after a word from our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Thank you to our sponsor, Metro Aviation. Metro Aviation, the world's largest family-owned aeromedical operator, offers comprehensive aircraft services with 140 plus aircraft in over 25 states. The completion center installs medical law enforcement kits in avionics, serving diverse aviation needs including offshore, utility, VIP, and corporate sectors. Thank you to our sponsor, Rotocraft Support. Rotocraft Support, from the hangar floor to the flight line. We've spent 40 years caring for the aircraft that communities rely on every day. Rotocraft Support, where dedication meets decades of experience. If you're passionate about rotorcraft maintenance, then be sure to check out Vertical's new Instagram channel at vertical.mro. Vertical MRO is dedicated to supporting advancing rotorcraft maintenance. The backbone of our industry.