With host @angrylogician, this week's episode dives deep into the future of GameFi, with insights from industry experts @MehdiFarooq2 [Animoca] @0xKDOT [MH Ventures]
Here's what we unpack...
- The 2024 GameFi Boom: Will it mirror 2021 or be completely different?
- Lessons Learned: Which projects survived the crash? What are the success stories?
- The Rise of Gaming Funds: How are L1s and L2s fueling innovation? (ARB's $400M fund!)
- Beyond ROI: Does anyone actually care about the games themselves?
- Project Spotlight: Animoca Brands & MH Ventures reveal their hottest GameFi bets!
- The Biggest Players: Who dominates GameFi now, and will they stay on top?
- Mainstreaming GameFi: Can blockchain games compete with traditional giants? What does it take for success?
- Kam & Mehdi's Top Picks: Discover the GameFi projects they're most excited about in 2024!
Some projects discussed in this episode...
@GunzillaGames @Ronin_Network @ParamLaboratory @BuildOnBeam @avax @Immutable @0xPolygon @Revolving_Games @pixels_online @AxieInfinity @SkaleNetwork @solana @SuiNetwork @Aptos
Timestamps:
0:00 GameFi Trends in Web3 Landscape
12:01 Evolution of Gaming Trends
18:45 Evolution of Web3 Gaming Economies
29:34 Future Gaming Ecosystem Predictions
41:17 Investment Strategies in Gaming Ecosystems
46:37 Emerging Gaming Ecosystems Analysis
59:26 NFTs and Conflict of Interest
This video is a must-watch for anyone interested in the future of gaming and blockchain.
Peace Out! ✌️
Video Credits: @BoriyaKishan
[Disclaimer: It's important to note that the information provided here does not constitute financial advice. The views and opinions expressed herein are purely personal and do not in any way represent or reflect the official stance or viewpoints of the individuals company]
With host @angrylogician, this week's episode dives deep into the future of GameFi, with insights from industry experts @MehdiFarooq2 [Animoca] @0xKDOT [MH Ventures]
Here's what we unpack...
- The 2024 GameFi Boom: Will it mirror 2021 or be completely different?
- Lessons Learned: Which projects survived the crash? What are the success stories?
- The Rise of Gaming Funds: How are L1s and L2s fueling innovation? (ARB's $400M fund!)
- Beyond ROI: Does anyone actually care about the games themselves?
- Project Spotlight: Animoca Brands & MH Ventures reveal their hottest GameFi bets!
- The Biggest Players: Who dominates GameFi now, and will they stay on top?
- Mainstreaming GameFi: Can blockchain games compete with traditional giants? What does it take for success?
- Kam & Mehdi's Top Picks: Discover the GameFi projects they're most excited about in 2024!
Some projects discussed in this episode...
@GunzillaGames @Ronin_Network @ParamLaboratory @BuildOnBeam @avax @Immutable @0xPolygon @Revolving_Games @pixels_online @AxieInfinity @SkaleNetwork @solana @SuiNetwork @Aptos
Timestamps:
0:00 GameFi Trends in Web3 Landscape
12:01 Evolution of Gaming Trends
18:45 Evolution of Web3 Gaming Economies
29:34 Future Gaming Ecosystem Predictions
41:17 Investment Strategies in Gaming Ecosystems
46:37 Emerging Gaming Ecosystems Analysis
59:26 NFTs and Conflict of Interest
This video is a must-watch for anyone interested in the future of gaming and blockchain.
Peace Out! ✌️
Video Credits: @BoriyaKishan
[Disclaimer: It's important to note that the information provided here does not constitute financial advice. The views and opinions expressed herein are purely personal and do not in any way represent or reflect the official stance or viewpoints of the individuals company]
So welcome to episode two of the DealFlow podcast. This is a weekly podcast. Bscn myself is the host. Every week we get on expert guests and specific topics, thought leaders in the space and effectively we just chat about the topic, we make predictions, we talk about the projects we like Very, very organic. So forgive the lack of structure that we have, but without further ado, I'm your host, johnny Huang, chief Editor at BSCN. Very, very proud to be joined by two phenomenal guests again this week. Our first guest is Mehdi, an absolute expert in the space. He does investment and partnerships at Animoca Brands, a very, very well-known organization. We're also joined by Kamran, who is the founder of both BSCN itself and also manages MH Ventures, one of the most active and well-respected venture capital funds in the industry. How are you doing today, gents?
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Johnny, I'm good. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:So first question, a very, very open one, just to get us kicked off which trends, if any, have you guys noticed in the 2024 GameFi Web3 gaming landscape?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll start with this. Yeah, so I think in 2024, even though the year has only had a few months, but we have seen a couple of repricing of all the gaming projects out there In 2022, later half and 2023. Um, kind of everybody was cutting off um game fire as a sector, but now it kind of seems like um, people have started to reprice the fact that retail in web 3 understand gaming, understands culture, defy sometimes, and sometimes infrastructure can go over the head and because of that reason we have some seen multi-billion dollar launches, like with pixels, with mavia and there's so many other big ones coming. So I think the first trend we see is multiple repricing of the sector itself and it makes sense because retail and Web3 understands it.
Speaker 2:The second trend which is very, very interesting I see, is retail becoming also savvy in a way that the projects they are trying to buy or are very bullish on are more like ecosystem play. So there is an element of financialization there Rather than like any casual game. They won't get that billion dollar valuation. Only those projects that are getting like those higher valuations are actually when those projects are thinking along the lines of having ecosystem. So let's say, multiple games, a couple of infrastructure projects or ecosystem within the game itself, where the game progression and the depth of the gameplay is a platform in itself, like it's very deep and has multiple underlying economies and interactions, um, that are happening. So one example of that is pixel and one of the more ecosystem players, dronin, even though not a gaming uh project but a gaming chain, but multiple games being built on top. So I think those are like a couple of trends that they're on top of my mind at the moment so just really, really quick one to follow up.
Speaker 1:You know you talk about how sort of 2022, 2023. We definitely had this sort of flight from game fight, or at least a real regression from from where we sat in 2021. Why was that? Was it a simple case of, you know, valuations and token prices crashing you know 80, 90, 95 percent? Or was there something more to it?
Speaker 2:I think it's because of the fact that retail understands gaming more intuitively than defy um. I wouldn't say that valuations are not overstretched. I think valuations have kind of gotten ahead of itself again, not not financial advice, but I feel like valuation is slightly ahead of the fundamentals at the moment.
Speaker 1:But I think the only way it's a bubble is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's slightly on the overvalued side. But one thing that's becoming really evident is retail understands Web3 gaming. They don't understand DeFi, they don't understand infrastructure. So when you kind of understand something, you're willing to pay a slight premium. So I think from that perspective it makes sense.
Speaker 2:The second thing is uh, this is a new mental model I've been like trying to frame after speaking with like, uh, like gamefi investor is in web 2 gaming, the valuation will always be lower than web 3, because in web 3, games are more about supporting the asset rather than the other way around. In web 2 it's about the game flip gameplay first. In web 3 it's about okay, this is the game, these are the assets, the game supports the asset. So the communities are forming around assets, those asset access platform, and then games and other things support them. So because of that rationale, the asset itself has a network effect and it becomes a content. Play and game is just one instrument that's expressing that uh, content, right, um, so for that reason, I think retail firstly gets it and because of that financialization of assets and game, game, game, assets it makes sense that the valuation will be always be slightly higher than, let's say, web 2 counterpart cam, do you have anything to add there?
Speaker 1:I've definitely got a couple of follow-up questions, for sure yeah, so.
Speaker 3:So maybe my outlook on this is that, you know, going back to 2020 or 2021, 2022, everyone was just in a rush again, like we spoke in the last podcast about narratives, and hence people were just trying to.
Speaker 3:They were buying games off steam, rebranding them into web 3 or just introducing some blockchain mechanics.
Speaker 3:Um, now what we're seeing is that all of that shit is pushed to the side and we're about to see, if not already, like actual triple a games that were funded back in 2022, 2021, that are going to come out now and actually we're going to see gameplay, and then we're going to notice if there's actual gamers in web3 that actually want to play. I think, like the biggest trend now that I would say is that games have realized the two token model doesn't work and then also, if they really want to succeed, they can't just be native on Web3. They have to be 50-50, web2 and Web3. Because all and most gamers are on Web2. It's still the biggest, and I also believe that Web3 needs web 2 gaming more than web 2 needs web 3. Um, so you know, in saying that, I think that most games do like have to have that um, the side of like being on a steam or being on a epic games or you know, and just have the platform so people can play it I mean, that's a question in itself.
Speaker 1:Right, and we were cam. I know that you and I we were both on a space an interview with with arc stream last week talking a little bit about this um, with regards to to deepen ai, and the answer seemed pretty clear. Right, there were some very, very obvious advantages there. Does gaming even need web3? Does gaming need to be in any way decentralized? Does gaming need these fungible assets? Is it necessary or is it a buzzword slapped on what is effectively just blockchain tech?
Speaker 3:again like I. I can go back and forth on this and um, you know, as I keep and talk to more people, I get swayed more on that. Yeah, it's good for for the industry. I'm not opposed to it. I think it's great because now we're incentivizing. It's the same with, like we spoke at last about deep in right like you're incentivizing people to play, but there's a negative effect on that and on the gaming side, because now you're introducing a financial reward uh, that's stuck to the game which, when these rewards are depleted, that it just takes away from users wanting to play. Right, and then they shift to something new. Everyone in crypto is just got a short attention span, um, but yes, I do think it's needed.
Speaker 3:I think it's a. It is a nice thing of like being able to nft your uh, you know, your gun or your whatever it may be your materials and then, alongside that, earn rewards. I just feel like we need to get away from these high rewards. Once that has come down, then, yes, the people will actually play because they want to play, not because they can earn a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars. Um, so, yeah, I think it's a good thing. On that, no, do I see big gaming studios, such as an epic games or whoever else, pivoting into blockchain? I don't know yet. Like I just I'm gonna get. I'm more towards no, but who knows? Right, like this industry can massively change them, but they might see a positive to it. I just don't see them giving up too much revenue yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean one thing that, so I, so I was, you know, for context, before I was with BSCN, I was working in BC an institutional investment on that side and we did speak to GameFi projects, and one thing that this quite impressive founder, like won't name names or anything told me is that it takes four years and $10 million to create a AAA game, which, in theory, if that's true, million dollars. To create a triple a game, um, which, in theory, if that's true, which it may well not be, I'm sure. Maybe you can. You can, you can interject and provide a better, uh, better explanation, um, but if that does, if that is the case, then some of those projects that were funded in 2021 with tens, twenties and millions, provided they haven't burnt through that runway like absolutely no one's business, which cannot be taken for granted, but then, in theory, we should start to see some of these AAA rated games coming out in the next sort of you know, 12, 24 months. In theory, right? Does that seem feasible to you, or is that totally valid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean like, let's see, let's rewind a little bit, so I would reframe the question. I feel like games do not need Web3. I think culture needs Web3. So even with gaming, what we see around is majority of the content is consumed outside of the games versus inside. Like, let's say, you play a game, you try and go and find cheat codes or you discuss on forums, so there's a culture around it and I think Web3 facilitates that culture. So, for example, I really like this skin or I really like this NFT which represents a gun. Web3 allows me to own that right, like I am the only owner, I can fractionalize it, I can trade it, I can lend, I can borrow. So I think Web3 unlocks that. And then also allows the fact that if you have an asset, you can interact in a Discord and act as an access bar. So I feel like, more than gaming, web3 unlocks the culture, part of the gaming.
Speaker 2:And to your second question regarding AAA game, I feel like if we rewind back the way mobile gaming kind of went on that exponential curve the starting was for games like Angry Birds. So I think with Web3, we just went ahead of ourselves right, like, okay, let's have a triple a game with all of the big studios and spend like multiple, like thousand dollars, like like non-thousand dollars, like millions of dollars, to kind of develop it. But I feel like the the immediate, like short to medium run, you will see fun casual games that have very, very deep economies, deep communities, which are like spending thousands of dollars to find meaning and to find that culture outside of the game. So one example I'll give you is pixel. It's a farming game. Um, fdv is four billion and it is on trajectory to have 10, 10 million maus. So I I think for me AAA games sounds fancy but I think in terms of mass adoption of Web3, culture might be the casual games or that mid-strategy type games that achieves that.
Speaker 1:You make a really good point. That is a really cool point.
Speaker 2:That being said, I think Cam over here will agree. We have multiple AAA games about to release as well, so I'm excited about that as well, like Godzilla Illuvium. So I think, throughout the spectrum, I think we'll see everything in Web3. And I think that's what excites me about GameFi.
Speaker 1:Actually very, very brief interruption. Do you guys play any games these days, either web 2 or web 3, mobile console, anything?
Speaker 3:so I've never played a mobile game. I don't know why I've just never thought about having my phone there and playing those are the ones that I have time for.
Speaker 1:These days.
Speaker 3:I don't have time to sit down for like three hours and then I was a big gamer mmorpg like back in the day when I was younger. I used to love that. Um, which ones? Which ones? Uh, probably no one knows about it but called any cure online. It was a really big game. It was really good. It's on steam now but it's just not active anymore. They were never on steam before. They had their own. Whatever you call it. But, um, honestly, it was probably one of the best games I ever played, just like their whole the, the whole game thought out, the way it was in in terms of like. Anyway, it doesn't, I'm not going to get into it um, I then also played counter-strike. Source was a big, big player of counter-strike source, loved it so much, uh, and then dot r2 as well. Dotr2 was just too hard to play. I used to love playing it, but you need to be really good at it.
Speaker 3:In the UK and I don't know if they maybe have it elsewhere, but they have things called i-series. It's like gaming series where you go, you go for a couple of days and you're in this big. It could be a warehouse, it could be whatever. Just think of it like um, what do they call it? Uh, in crypto, when they go and have a hackathon, it's like that, but this is a gaming one and people go there and they meet, you know, they just game together and then there's like tournaments. So you should do that, um, me, my cousins, my brother, uh. But now, like for the last, I'm gonna say maybe the last six years, maybe not been able to play, and I just have a battle with myself of, like one, I don't have the time now, but two is the battle is I can't waste time playing, like there's so much more stuff to do and I'm like the hour is just wasted.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't sure answer I don't play anymore um, yeah, I was more fan of consumption based, like story based games.
Speaker 2:Uh, so, things like god of war, um, things like like open world games like gta, um, I just felt like I have this tendency in my personality to get really addicted with competitive games, uh, player versus player games. So so I used to just consume the story-based games, yeah, and right now, mostly do playtest, rather than playing games for fun. It's more about playtest and then just looking at those games professionally and even doing the playtest I found out at least in Web3, the cues are not in the game itself, it's around the communities. Um, so so, yeah, short answer don't play it as much. Um, also, kind of cognizant of my personality, that I get really addicted. That said, I'm I'm actually looking forward to gta 6. Uh, as, yeah, as cam was alluding, I might take a couple of days off from work and just like complete it, like complete all the mission and kill a few folks there when are we getting gta 6?
Speaker 1:I remember because the trailer got leaked in early december, but when are we actually getting the game? Is it a 25 job? It's not this year, is it?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. The rumors have it. It will be 2025 and also have it. It's opening up financialization. It will have elements of crypto and open economy. So if you look at the last GTA V, there were missions about, let's say, if you do some sort of a stuff like kill someone, the stock market will go down because you killed a CEO or something. I don't remember the mission exactly, but they were trying to experiment with like in-game stock markets, and I feel like gta, like the new gta right will, will have all of that on steroids, and I won't be surprised if it has loads of crypto and nft elements. I've heard rumors that there are people who have actually um done some build test yeah, so we.
Speaker 1:So we obviously we covered a lot of the gta stuff when it was at least around the trailer, when it was really hyped up, sort of q4 2023 and there were rumors, but we did our best to sort of look and see whether there were any confirmations and stuff like that. I think at the moment unless, like you know, if it's a sort of it's a case of people familiar with the matter type thing, there weren't any really clear indicators or guarantees. That. But that would be awesome, that'd be awesome. But what actually? What would that mean for web 2, for web 3, gaming?
Speaker 3:I think that is the domino effect. Like my personal thoughts, if gta should do that and actually bring, bring in the blockchain side of things, it just starts the domino effect and because every other studio that builds games now will just see like what doors have been opened and what the capabilities are, meaning that they'll start to put people on there, make their own web, three, you know team to build something like that, and I think that then changes the whole mind frame. For people like myself, right like who are on the sidelines, on the 50, 50 sidelines, it just confirms that this would be huge um so yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:I mean also just like the credibility if rockstar games did it. Suddenly it kind of for better or worse, it kind of opens up the door and it makes other parties feel a bit more comfortable with it potentially. Yeah, there are three games by big studios like ubisoft.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah is working on a, on a game which has, like, there's a whole blockchain called Oasis 3 and like, loads of Japanese studio building on top, like Sega, ubisoft, capcom. So I think a lot of studios are experimenting.
Speaker 1:But no, I mean just to move back from that for a second, just to move back from, like, the innovations and where we're going to see sort of new elements of the space come to fruition, and where we're going to see sort of new elements of the space come to fruition. We, you know, we spoke a little bit about at the beginning about 2021, about that last sort of gaming hype cycle, if you want to call it. Which projects are still around? Right, we spoke a bit about how Axie you know very much a buzzword or a watchword, so to speak, in that period, but obviously it's not around in any way the same, in any way, the same way that it was previously, there's been a shift towards developing ronin, talking about ecosystem plays, medhi are there any sort of pure games that were hyped or at least discussed whatever it was two, three years ago that are still discussed, played, being developed?
Speaker 2:I think last cycle was like a couple of years ago. So in those cycle there were token launch without the game, so there wasn't a game, and now we'll have those games. So a few examples being like eluvium was one right like there wasn't a game, there was like just like a trailer, uh, and just like a couple of leaks, uh, but now I think we're going towards a trajectory where those tokens that will launch will have a proper game. So I think one was eluvium. Uh axi, um I think still has the highest, uh daus, if I'm not mistaken um, I kind of feel feel for xc that they were like first mover in terms of a space which, which, which was like kind of brand new, like play, play to earn, play and earn all of that stuff. But they definitely did innovate and just opened up a whole new financialization of things which other projects copied, failed, reiterated on lots of lessons there. And then I think XC Infinity is now also becoming a platform play where they have this metaverse called Lunacia. They'll have multiple games inside there. Then there is a Ronin where they they have this uh metaverse called lunacia. They'll have multiple games inside there. Then there is a ronin where they kind of um, the xc ip becomes relevant there. Um, so I think that that is still a very big brand um for for web 3 gaming.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, those are the few that comes to mind like. Another one is gunzilla, uh, even even though it wasn't launched. But they have been raising since 2021. And I think they'll come to market pretty soon. So, yeah, there has been some promises. But then, as Cam was highlighting earlier, a lot of games were just like folks of like already established Web 2 games. I think those didn't survive. Folks of like already established web 2 games. I think those didn't survive. I think those games that are doing well are either high fidelity, with native and novel elements, or those projects that have like a very, very strong community um, like x, infinity, alluvium, so on, so forth. So I think community here matters as well, not just the gameplay. Like community is of utmost importance because they take that ip forward and consume that content, uh, so I I think those projects that are still relevant have that element of community that just didn't go away maybe I have a question for you, um, or just your, what your thoughts are.
Speaker 3:So back then, axie infinity, you know, started the two token model. Uh, they also started, um, breeding right, like you know, your, your characters can breed other characters and so forth and create this loop. Do you, do you think that axie infinity blew up the, the gamify industry back then and made it because everyone copied their two token model, even though it wasn't the best? And then also the this loop on on nfts has been birthed constantly.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I, I mean, yeah, everybody did copy it brainlessly. Some I still remember some gamify projects were actually smart about it. Like step in was one kind of like copied that xe infinity but like for breeding, walk and earn shoes right, like similar model but for like different purpose. So people did copy it. Some people copied more intelligently, but everybody struggled. Um, I think the thing with xE was COVID happened. Loads of people were inside their home. It also kind of like spurred up in Philippines, where people are very entrepreneurial. They just wanted to earn extra money.
Speaker 2:And this token, like the two token model, it's kind of innovative in a way that if you're early, you do make a lot of money, but then things start diminishing and you come to a point that, as people start selling that, returns are gone. So, yeah, a lot of people copied it. There were a lot of lessons learned that what are some of the elements that are sustainable and what are not sustainable? I think people realize that the AXS and SPL model. The SPL model might be better off if you do it kind of off-chain it's more of a gamification currency and and then you have a value accrual currency which is axs. Uh, and I think this is what pixels did right. So they took, they also had two models, two token model, but they quickly realized that, um, they were, they were reiterating and had multiple different sinks, and they also realized that it won't work work right now.
Speaker 2:So just to also give you context, like these game economies which have like very, very complicated progression system, it's very, very difficult to even balance those economy in in web 2.
Speaker 2:So if you look at Eve online or if you look at Diablo, they have data for like 10 years, 15 years of their user history and then even then they kind of struggle sometimes balancing the economy. Now you took, you take that and you put it in web3 and you put that on steroid because now economy is open, like everything is tradable. That makes it even more difficult. So even the soft currency it's very, very difficult to balance because there are so many variables and so many simulations that you have to do. You don't know the user base, you don't know the geography when will the people come from? And then in Web3, we basically open that economy and make things tradable. So makes that job 10x more difficult. So I think after that what realization come was let's just have one fund currency and one value accrual currency, and that fund currency doesn't have to be financialized. And I think this is what a lot of projects, even with MMORPG games, farming games, are heading towards in terms of a tokenomics trend.
Speaker 1:That's really cool, I mean one. So one theory that I had and you guys can absolutely slap me and call me a moron if it's if it's way over simplistic but I think that guilds, I mean you know the likes of sort of ygg merit circle. We've already seen them pivoting away from being guilds really, but I think they actually had a major role in, in what you might call like the downfall of game. Fine, particular games like like axi infinity right, where you know the, the, the, the syncs for slp, I think, in particular, games like Axie Infinity right, where you know the syncs for SLP I think in particular were breeding oriented right, the idea that you create more Axies, as they were called, still are cool, I guess, and that guilds sort of undermine that model, the idea that actually, no, you can have limited resources and therefore limited demand for these syncs for SLP, but actually you know, still have loads of people earning SLP and you know, but with the same assets.
Speaker 2:I feel that with guilds they were slightly ahead of the time. It was a business idea, it was a business model. I think this is also a trouble when, let's say, you launch a very innovative game like XE, who have a first mover. Nobody has done this ever and they're kind of navigating a space that nobody has walked right. So they did this two token model and then guilds came in and be like OK, if this works, we have an interesting model where you can form a guild. So I think both the parties didn't know what was the like in terms of pod dependency, what does the future look like? And both were trying to innovate. So now the guilds realize that this might not be the business model they were after.
Speaker 2:So I think some of them have pivoted. Some have made chains, some have made kind of like on chain. So even though the ethos is still the same like marriage circle still has the gaming guild ethos, but they have kind of pivoted more towards l2. So the community is still there, but more in terms of like a gaming chain. Ygg has kind of moved towards on chain achievements, which they're more in terms of like a gaming chain. Ygg has kind of moved towards on-chain achievements, which they're also kind of behaving like a guild, but rather than just farming tokens, they're like you do these x, y and z quests and you get these x, y and z airdrops and and points which which will, so, so, ethos wise, it's kind of similar.
Speaker 2:You have the guild model, but I think the level of activity has changed. So, rather than just being a farmer, now you have to do quest. Instead of being a farmer, now you have to be an on-chain user. So so I I think those pivots were done rightly. So, um, yeah, and I think that's the. That's the beauty of crypto, right, like when you are doing something innovative, these are things that happen and just to to add uh to what medhi's saying as well, is that I don't again look.
Speaker 3:I think gills are good to a certain extent. I think they were just over leveraged. Um, you know, games wanted them because they wanted players, and players just added value to their token and also the hype of their game is one and then two. You know, the owners of the guild were just loving it because they were making a good amount of money until the bubble burst. I don't know if it's right to say that they shouldn't have been guilds. They should have been more of clans and clans being like. If it's a skill-based game, these guys are forming teams that are going to compete against each other. I think that's what the next cycle is going to be, you know, like a face clan in Web3 or whatever they may be. I think that's what is actually needed, because then that makes the game competitive rather than farming. Right, that's how I see things and I think that's the way we need to. I think.
Speaker 1:Different genres I mean this comes back to.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, so I agree to camp yeah carry on so I think the different genres.
Speaker 2:So I think we'll have. We are already seeing some signs of clans being formed, like things like gonzala sharpnell, these high fidelity shooter game, high stakes. I think we'll have that esports element, clan element. But then we are also seeing, and we'll see these games come in market, like pixels and eve online, but the web 3 version where, yeah, you'll have your clans but you might also have your guilds. So guilds, in essence, even both clans and guilds in essence are just like coordination mechanism where these players just like coordinate and achieve something.
Speaker 2:So in clan, like in in shooter game, it's okay, let's be the best guild or clan, or in farming game, let's be somebody that just owns the most resources. So I think there's just like a framing issue, uh, with with the genre. Uh, I think we'll have both. What cam describe, I feel, like shooter game, absolutely perfect model for this, like we'll have clans which fight each other to win the prize. But I think in farming games, um, you, you kind of need to have a guild where you kind of like gather resources and coordinate together if, if, if, that makes sense, like mmo games and farming games. So I think you'll have mix of both, but I think the guilt will take another form, like there will be micro guilds rather than like like one big guild that just owns the whole web3 space. I don't think. I think that that is gone. I think we'll see more micro guilds.
Speaker 1:I mean, I remember like this must have been, I don't know, maybe like 2014 maybe, but you know the people that I was, you know, within these sort of guilds or clans with. I was playing clash of clans with like three guys that I was at school with. That's. That's what the sort of guild the clan was for me and it kind of comes back to and I absolutely love this and I've never heard it articulated like that.
Speaker 1:But when Medhi said that actually culture needs needs web3 gaming rather than sort of the gaming industry itself, which is awesome, but I think we touched on this a little bit. But to move on to the next question, I'm kind of going to reframe it to make it a little bit more clickbaity, right, but can you guys both pick two L1 or L2 ecosystems, different ones, so feel free to battle over who gets to go first that you think are going to play host to, like what you'd call the game by revolution, but you're not allowed to say immutable so are you saying we pick two l ones or l twos, that will do really well for for for the gaming sector.
Speaker 2:Is that correct?
Speaker 1:exactly. Yeah, but you're not actually. No, you're not allowed to pick a mutable or ronin.
Speaker 2:It's much harder now you have also included ronin. So since the fact that you have banned those names. It just feels like those two names will have a role to play.
Speaker 3:I have an answer, and this is only because I read something on. I think CoinGecko did a report. I think it was going back last year sometime. I'm not going to actually say Avalanche. I do think Avalanche has a good competitive narrative of what they're doing with their subnets and stuff, but I'm not going to say them. I'm going to be a little bit different. I'm going to say Scale, which probably a lot of people haven't heard of.
Speaker 3:I think Scale is going to scale um with their like no fee based games. Being able to go on their build is fast um. The only thing is that I think and they had like huge funding as well, like, I think, the top tier one funds were actually invested back like 2021 I think, maybe earlier than that. So they've got a lot of money to actually now start to, which we're already seeing. They start to bring over a lot of games. We're also now trying to take on the DeFi hype and also the AI narrative as well and building these selected chains to have these different um projects on the ecosystem.
Speaker 3:So I do think scale is going to do really well um. I think do this need to. They just need to get their name out there a bit more, um, I think the second one, which back in 2021 or 2022, uh, was known for it, but somehow, like I think what's going on is just buried them on the gaming side, not everything else like a super hype. I think Solana is gonna do well. I do think Solana will do well because it's able to one host of games. It's super fast, super cheap and we already seen like a few triple-a games coming out of there, you One being Star Atlas and the Peril If they ever launch and Peril as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:So I do think Solana is going to do well. I just think that gaming part of the minute is really quiet for them and I think that's just because it's buried by the memes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with Cam. I think Solana, just I think it might even become the ecosystem of fully on-chain games, like I think we hear right, like autonomous world, something that hasn't been like as a narrative, hasn't picked up. But I think in a couple of years' time you'll see fully on-chain games and I think Solana will have a huge role to play there, apart from some of the other bigger games that are launching.
Speaker 1:I also think Are you saying that just because it's performant? Basically?
Speaker 2:Performant, high throughput, low latency Low latency is also important and low gas fees. So let's say, when you have the whole game inside a chain and every interaction is a transaction, you need something like solana, where let's say, let's say we're in a farming game and I basically, johnny, I come to you and I give you some resources and and basically we craft something together. Every time we craft something, there is a fees associated. I don't think we can do that on Ethereum, but on Solana we can do it like thousands of times, hundreds of times. So I think, for that matter, I think Solana will do well and I think SWE also has that potential. Swe is kind of like Solana in that manner. I just feel like it's just early days for SWE and we have seen with both, with SWE and like interesting studios, especially the web 2 studios, kind of leveraging them, and I think it will just take a couple of years before, like, some big names come out of that.
Speaker 1:so for me, those will be like a couple of ecosystem that in the future for gaming could do really well some really cool answers and I'm glad that I I you know didn't let you guys say immutable, or I think suey is a really interesting one. Like I met a while ago, the team behind ethos, which I think was, is now uh, just a sort of move language wallet, but was very much suey focused, and they put out that game. It was like a I've forgotten what it was, but it was a version of 2048. You know that tile sliding game that we've all played on our phones at one point or another and that just like do you remember what happened with sui transactions?
Speaker 1:it was just they went absolutely nuts, they broke records and stuff, purely because of that one game, and I don't think people were even playing it for an airdrop, I think people were just messing around with it. So that that, I think, is a really, really interesting answer. The other one that I would say it's partly because of denken upgrade and what it did to l2 gas, um, but also because they just launched a 400 million dollar fund is arbitrum, and I'm really curious to see what happens there, because I think of arbitrum is really a defy layer too right, a lot going on in the defy.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't necessarily a lot of gaming studios using arbitrum for l3 like launching their chain on arbitrum as l3 um.
Speaker 3:So one of our port co.
Speaker 2:Param Lab has intention A lot of projects. Zai has a gaming L3. And I know like few anime-based chains and stuff like that just launching their own chain using Arbitrum and I think the gaming fund they recently launched 400 million. I think we'll just accelerate that.
Speaker 1:So, directly or indirectly, arbitrum will yeah, yeah, really, really quick one, because I know we're running out of time a little bit here, but I think if I'd asked you this question in maybe late 2020, mid 21, maybe even early 22, polygon would have been a name that we would be speaking about, and I don't think. Do you remember, like sunflower? I forgot what it was called, but it was. You know, the activity sunflower lands, right, the activity going on within the magic ecosystem from a game for game.
Speaker 3:Five perspective was was newsworthy itself I think that the polygon so this is my take on it and I and this is just coming someone does as an onlook right, and I also had a look at some analytics as well so I think Polygon geared themselves up to be the gaming chain. I just don't know what happened. I feel like they had a strong hold on it back then, but I do feel like their chain just had issues, and I mean that from a cost perspective, as much as it is an L2, if you actually use it as it's a general user as well, it becomes expensive. At some points it was super slow. At some points it was like lags Not saying there was a pause is one and then I think that were the main things Like I was doing stuff back in, things Like I was, you know, doing stuff back in 21 because I was a part of it which spoke last time, doing some stuff on the gaming side with NFTs and whatever, and it was really slow and also became super expensive even as an L2.
Speaker 3:So I think that's where they lost a lot of like hope and games wanting to pivot. But, that being said, like even till today there's still a decent amount of games on there, and it is one Asia game that probably none of us have heard. But again, look to analytics, called Matrix Fire, and it's had like 12 million active users, right, and that's recent Are they all genuine as well.
Speaker 1:Is that data in any way?
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they're genuine, I don't know, sometimes it's hard to tell, but that's not.
Speaker 2:I think Polygon Gaming is doing fantastically well, but I don't think people know that what Polygon's strategy is is giving all the games to Immutable X. So over here the play is distribution. So what polygon is doing taking all the games and encouraging them to launch an immutable x, because immutable x is powered by polygon zkvm. So I think that's their strategy. So their strategy is we give our cdk chain development kick to everybody out there, so their gaming chain is immutable and they're now focusing on other people to start their chain. So I think that's their endgame and since everybody will be using the CDK, polygon then can become the aggregation layer. So I think what happened there was them focusing all the gaming effort towards immutable Because they have a strategic partnership and they're using the same yeah, so, so wait, so how did?
Speaker 3:they, so that that means, you know, go on no, I was going to say how did?
Speaker 1:how does the polygon ecosystem, how to, how to matic hold as a crew value from that in the end in like a scalable way? Like it does sound like an interesting strategy and I know that their focus is very much sort of cdk shaped at moment. Right, they're pitching to all different BL2s to get them to use that CDK, but where's the ultimate value accrual?
Speaker 2:I think that's a good question. I think it will be an immutable token. But then let's say, if Polygon wins the distribution war, where everybody uses the chain development kit, then the value accrues to the player who aggregates everything. So I think Polygon's end goal is to go after that value accrual, which I think is a bit more ambitious than, let's say, immutable. I also don't know the arrangement with Immutable and Polygon. Maybe there is a revenue split or maybe there is some sort of that arrangement. I don't know, but I do know, seeing in the market, that they're working very closely, like they help each other out a lot. So any game polygon has, they do encourage immutable. If you want to launch your own l2 with zk, then you basically uh, use it through the cdk. If you're a game, if you just are a dap, you launch it on Immutable. Yeah. And within that ecosystem, if you combine, there's so many interesting games like Gods, unchained, Param Labs, farhana. So I think combined-wise they're still like one of the leading game L2s, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a vibrant ecosystem.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Okay, so two questions that I think our audience is really gonna answer, going to be interested in or resonate with um. Both directed the two of you as investors. So when you know, we asked a similar question for deep in last week. If you haven't checked that out, then please go and check out the episode. There was some seriously cool alpha in there, um, but when it comes to investment approaches to game fight specific, especially fungible tokens, so let's leave. Let's leave sort of nfts out. Is there a specific approach that you guys would not recommend obviously, because nothing's financial advice but that you think is meritable?
Speaker 3:so, um, I think it's looking at games, and this is just this can be used across the board. Right, um, you're looking at investments or games that are things that cannot be replicated, right um, easily.
Speaker 3:So, when you look at triple a games, like you said at the beginning, it's really hard to create a triple a game. It takes years on, years, like it takes three to four years to actually build one. And that is true, um, and hence why we're going to see some now come out in fruitation. But if you're looking at an investment and the game is easy to build and it can be replicated easy or can be bought off of you know, assets can be bought, which we saw loads of assets being bought off, like one of these websites and someone went and bought a game off steam I think they're bad investments because there was no real thought process in the game being built and there's no like a, there's no lifespan to it. That's how I look at things.
Speaker 3:So you know, uh, medis, you know um spoke about gonzala, again a portfolio company of mh as well um, we invested in them back in, I think, 2021, maybe even was it 2020, I don't know a long time ago, and these guys are going to come out. It's taken this long to actually build the game and it's going to and if you've seen demos of it, it's a top-tier triple a um and this is a game that can't be replicated in in a week or two, six months. It's impossible. So they're the plays that you want to be looking out for, and if you're looking at investments, you're looking on the long horizon. Um, and if that's, if that's what you are as an investor, then, yes, like, look at games that you know are going to be around for a long time. If you look at smaller games, who knows how long their lifespan is going to be?
Speaker 3:and that's how I look at things.
Speaker 2:Um you know, make sure that things can't replicate it yeah, for me gaming is particularly tough, like you're taking a bet on content, which content achieves network effect or virality, because habit change, people taste change, so it's very, very difficult to sometimes take a bet. That's why you have a fairly high fail rate in traditional web2 gaming. But I think in web3 gaming what has worked for me is, rather than looking at the content, the hack is look at the community and and look at the stickiness of that community. So when I say word community, you can use it interchangeably with ip. So just to give an example like, really like, like was really bullish on param labs when nobody was like even looking at that game. Uh, and and I was early in contrarian there because what I found was the community is a game strop and wall street bad community. Everybody was focused on gameplay and they were like oh, the gameplay is is okay, it's not like, let's say, like Godzilla, but then you have this amazing community that will make sure that they play the game, they have fun with it and encourage them to build further games.
Speaker 2:So for me, I think the mental model I have is look at the ip slash community first and foremost. So, more than the game itself, for me in web3 it's about the meta game, the game outside of the game, like what's the community doing, what's the coordination there, what's the ip there? And let's say one content of their fails can the community and the ip deliver something else that just elevates it or keeps on delivering, uh, in terms of the progression of of the life cycle of the game? So for me, that's one thing I pay a lot more attention to, uh, because content again in web3 is tough, tough. So community for me is the biggest one. So right now the two gaming projects that I was kind of bullish on early on, just looking at the community, was Revolving Games and Param Labs. Again, both ecosystem play and both had strong IP and community. Again, nothing here of financial advice.
Speaker 1:No, those are really cool answers, and slightly different ones, I think both of which could even be applied to some other verticals, some other sectors within the space as well. One tiny question before we dive into, I guess, your top two token picks for 2024. Again, not financial advice, but one really quick question is Sand of Sandbox has a market cap of 1.5 billion and Decentraland's Mana has a market cap of 1.5 billion and Decentraland's Manor has a market cap of 1.2 billion. That's market cap. That's not FDV market cap. Why? Why is that?
Speaker 3:Mehdi, you can answer that, because that's out of my head.
Speaker 2:Johnny, can we just remove this question? Don't want to speak about Sandbox or Decentraland.
Speaker 1:This is a no-go for any market plans. We can ditch that one this is a no-go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can do that, we can do this yeah, you can ask us like about games. We are bullish on something like that. Yeah, sandbox it's.
Speaker 1:It's not even a game bro, it's a metaverse I know, I know, I know, I know I'm sorry. I was looking through big gaming tokens, right, I was like holy fuck, but um, but yeah, okay, we'll scrap that one, all right. One final question that I think everybody's going to be very excited about We'd like you both to pick, I'd say two, but one or two tokens that are already live so past TGE in the gaming ecosystem that you think are definitely worth keeping an eye on for 2024. And again, not financial advice in any way, personal opinions and riffing only. But we'd love if you guys could make one or two picks.
Speaker 2:For me it would be Ronan.
Speaker 1:Bad play Purely because of that whole. You know, looking for value accrual in a major ecosystem kind of aspect Bad play.
Speaker 3:So we're picking a game or we're picking an ecosystem.
Speaker 1:I mean, maybe I was slightly lenient on letting him pick an ecosystem there, like that's. Like you know it's betting the rules a little bit, but I'd say either. I'd say either. If Medi can have either you can definitely have either Cam.
Speaker 2:But not.
Speaker 1:IMX? It's not allowed.
Speaker 3:So if I'm going to talk about ecosystem, I don't know why I feel that Beam or Merit Circle is going to do well that indie gaming is really cool. I do believe that they're going to succeed and I think they already are and they're incubating a lot of games and their transition from being a guild and I know that Mehdi was saying that I already have that part still but that building that chain as well was like I think was really cool and there's also honing down on a certain like niche, um, and then in terms of games, that is already live, um, and I think that there was a lot of hype back in the day and I think there still is. It's just taking them a long time. I do think, like, start atlas is gonna do really well still, um, but I think they just need to get out into into, uh, the full game yeah, I think that both both really really cool answers and, I think, really justifiable answers.
Speaker 1:Actually, one that I feel was really remiss of me not to focus more on um was, uh, you know, merit circles beam. I was wondering, if you know I know that you guys are probably both well versed in it could you give our audience just a little bit of context on that, that specific ecosystem, and why we think it's primed for great stuff? I mean, it's already doing great stuff, in fairness yeah, so I think it's um.
Speaker 3:For me personally, the whole thought process of likeit Circle was they started as a guild. That's what they were looking to do, and then, when they saw that the guild part had a long lifespan or was being able to come out of it during the bear market, they decided to pivot and they built their own chain and I think their process was that we're not looking to put triple a games on here. That's not what it's about. We're not looking to have big ecosystem games. It's purely small games that are indie games.
Speaker 3:So now that we're seeing actually I was speaking to a few actually that they're um and so a lot of them are all built from scratch and the the smaller games are. They're really short like time frames, so they're like 20, 30 minute game plays, but you can keep coming back and earn rewards. Um, and I think that's their whole thesis is we're not looking to, you know, have a star atlas or have a gunzilla on the chain. We just want really smaller games that we can have a user base, they're able, able to play multiple games on our chain and they can hop to different games. Um, I think that's why they'll succeed, because all these players able to play the game and not spend all day playing them I agree with cam.
Speaker 2:I think similar to how we were forming thesis for solana, uh, in last episode, I think, fair to say, some of these ecosystems, like like my circle, being like an index play for gaming, um, they've identified the niche. They're also investing and giving out grants, so yeah, so the thesis here will be index play of casual games and games it's really cool.
Speaker 1:It's really cool, like I do think that the beam ecosystem is one that I personally need to take a much, much closer look at, like what they've achieved, almost what feels like subtly is really really cool. So I definitely do some research there. Um, so we've got the two picks for you guys. We've done the same for l1s l2s. Are there any other questions that you think we've missed off? A couple off the list, some that we've kind of sort of semi-covered just in discussion? Are there any questions that you think we've missed off? A couple off the list, some that we've kind of sort of semi covered just in discussion? Are there any questions that you guys want to visit, uh, in particular, or even those that aren't on the list, projects you want to talk?
Speaker 3:so I think there's one thing that we've not not really mentioned um, and that's like the b and b chain ecosystem, as in like the gaming side of things. Like, if you look at it, they did have a lot of games and then I think, even till today they still do. Yeah I just don't know what happened um, you know it's cheap chain, cheap chain.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I don't maybe do you know much about like what happened or yeah, yeah, I think my, my thesis would be. My hypothesis would be not thesis. My hypothesis would be there wasn't any culture. So it lacked culture, and I think for gaming, culture is important. Like Solana has culture, polygon has culture. Yeah, in fact, even Bitcoin is building a lot of games.
Speaker 3:I mean, they're almost like, yeah, Bitcoin ecosystem is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, johnny. Ecosystem is. Yeah, so, johnny. Why don't you have that question? But I think this will become really controversial as well. So I've answered. Maybe you ask this question again and basically Cam can give that answer. I would take a backseat because of Yat's relationship with CZ.
Speaker 1:So which question particularly?
Speaker 2:I think we should like revisit two questions. One question will be what do you guys think of BNB chain, like as Cam was mentioning? And then I think the second question you should ask is like two of our picks in public market, what about two of our picks in private market? So Cam can shill his bags, I can also shill mine.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's fair, we can do those. Yeah, all right, we'll start the B&B one then, okay. So one question to wrap up, and you know we haven't really touched on this ecosystem much, despite it having what would you what you'd probably call a pre-existing game for ecosystem, but B&B chain. Like what are we seeing there at the moment? Is there a future for game fire within that ecosystem?
Speaker 3:you know again, looking back at the last bull run, uh, when gaming 5 was a hype, we saw a few games actually building on there. I forgot what they were called um, it was actually really, really hyped again I was an investor back then and it did like 100x, so I was super happy.
Speaker 3:I just feel like that chain has become like really quiet on the gaming side. I don't know what happened and I think, going back to what medhi's mentioned before and other aspects, um, you know, it's just about the culture, um, so maybe you can, you know, definitely say here that there's just no culture on bnb chain for the gaming side, and you know, a lot of the culture is elsewhere and that could be on the l3 of arbitrum or solana, and I feel like solana just in general has huge culture across multiple avenues. They're just their whole chain is really like I think their community is just strong-handed. Like you know, during the bear market, everyone was shat on them and these, these guys were like nah, mate, we're here to stay anyway.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just feel like the BNB chain, you know, super quick chain, super cheap, but yeah, I couldn't personally put my hand or my finger on the reasons behind why I've not seen more stuff or more games coming out of there or there's. Maybe there isn't just not enough noise around it. Um, you know, we had mobox as well. They were building small in, uh, small games, but I then pivoted to bitcoin, actually saying that on, um, I think merlin, merlin was it anyway, yeah, I don know.
Speaker 3:I don't know. The short answer is it's really. It does puzzle me, but yeah, I think there's, like Mehdi said on other things, there's just no culture.
Speaker 1:I think maybe that's a fair answer. I mean, the impression that I've got just from looking at the stories that have come out around BNP chain is that they're almost moving in what feels like a polygon type direction, right With a number of different L2s that function with slightly different stacks. They've just I think it was last week even unveiled their like they're effectively their equivalent of an L2, cdk, right, sdk, and what that's actually going to mean for specific applications, especially the GameFi ecosystem within the B&B chain. I think it's in truth it's a bit we can speculate all we wantb chain. I think it's in truth it's a bit we can speculate what we want.
Speaker 1:But I think it's a little bit up in the air at the moment, unless you're sort of within the inner echelons of um, of that ecosystem, right. But I think one question that we could end on, having spoken a little bit about tokens that are in the market, is tokens that are not yet in the market but are probably going to be. So we'd love if you guys could pick one or two private stage investments that you don't have to have invested in them. You might have missed the ticket, who knows? But to call them early stage, they're still doing fundraising, or at least have recently closed funding, that you guys have a lot of conviction in going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll start Two. One is Param Labs Again ecosystem play. First game called Caraverse, also has a technology that allows you to convert any NFT collection into an in-game avatar. Have a super, super sticky community of GameStop and WallStreetBets and what they've done is they've used their technology to convert some of their nfts and play in things like gt and fortnite. So very, very strong community loves the product. They're doing a points program and their community did their part in terms of amplifying. The founder is also very, very devoted and has done a fantastic job with culture.
Speaker 2:Speaking about culture, another great founder that said did amazing culture from the word go was amar from revolving games. So revolving game is another one I'm bullish on, again an ecosystem play. They're building multiple games. The nft collection is doing really well and amar has also kind of become like their cult leader does, does all things in terms of direction, where, where the ecosystem is going and the community responds, um. So for me those two are my pick, more from the fact that both of these projects have a lot of culture, sticky community, and then both are ecosystem play in different ways yeah, that's a good answer.
Speaker 1:I think you've you've mentioned param labs like seven or eight times this episode, so definitely one to watch is is the impression that I'm getting for sure. But cam, what about you?
Speaker 3:I know that you're very deep in the in the private stage investment space so I'm going to echo a bit of what medhi said with param labs Again an investor as well, but putting that aside like again like one, yeah, shilling bags, but two from an aspect of not shilling bags I met the founder in Denver. I mean we sat at the Animoca dinner together. I mean him just literally got on like super well. He's actually really young, super successful, especially in his previous business, and he's actually devoted into what he's building now and they're the type of people that you want to be investing in. Like he's an actual builder. He's actually not there because he can raise a lot of money and so forth. That's just a small little reward at the end. I'm actually excited in what he's got to build and you don't really see young founders that are just pure in a mind frame, is actually in the game of wanting to build and actually can manage a team as well, and he has all of those features and skillset. So I'm actually bullish on him and that's like the biggest thing. Like if someone doesn't work within his game or whatever he's building in the ecosystem, you just know straight away he can pivot. And if there's someone like that can just pivot, pick it up and move on is someone that you know, long-term, is going to succeed. So I'll echo what Mehdi said I'm super bullish on Param Labs.
Speaker 3:And the second thing is, in terms of games that are coming, uh, I'm gonna, you know, say again I think gonzalo is gonna be one of the biggest triple a games that comes out. Um, I think these guys are, you know, they're known builders in web 2. They had, you know, they've built games before. They've got a huge team. Um, they've raised a ton of money and they've not rushed anything. They're not rushing token launch. They've not rushed putting a game out there. They're, they know what they're doing. They actually focus a lot on, like, the web 2 side as well and a lot of marketing on that side. Um, because that they inevitably know, like the long game as well is like, uh, catering towards web 2 gamers as well. So I think that's what they're doing. It's not just here's a game, it's purely for web three you know it's a game here's web three and also here's here's web, web two, and they've made some really cool stuff in terms of tech side, on the blockchain side, like their own wallet and and so forth.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, I'm bullish on gunzilla and and param labs I think that's really cool and because I don't know, obviously you can do as much due diligence as you want on a project from from a retail investor perspective, but you're not going to get that exposure. You're not going to sit down at the private dinner with animoka, um, you know, to sort of really pick their brains and understand their characters, right, you're going to be limited to spaces. So love that you guys are able to give some insight into sort of that side of the project. Really cool. And I'm definitely getting a bit of fomo for not being exposed to param labs. So let me know if any angel tickets come up, although I think they're probably far past that at the moment.
Speaker 3:I could sell you my bag like 100x.
Speaker 1:Johnny, you can buy the NFTs again, not financial advice but if I bought them then I couldn't report on them anymore because then I'd have that I could just dump on you conflict of interest man, I'm sure you would. I'm sure you would, to be fair, you'd be monitoring my on-chain activity and it's. You probably got bots set up so that if I ever buy a token, mh and animo could just absolutely wreck me, dump absolutely everything liquid straight on the phone to gsr do you know what.
Speaker 3:There's one thing I've you know um.
Speaker 1:Anyway, let's not get into it, I'm gonna cut no, go on, we've got to get into it now.
Speaker 3:No, no um no, let's not mate, we can cut it out. What is it?
Speaker 2:I don't know what you guys are chatting about. I just zoned out. I was like what are you gonna? I don't know what you guys are chatting about.
Speaker 3:I just zoned out. I was like what are you going to say? I have no idea what you're chatting about. No, I don't know what I was going to say. I've lost my thought, my whole thought there.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, we'll let you off this time.