E051 - AI or Not - Kim Budil and Pamela Isom

Welcome to "AI or Not," the podcast where we explore the intersection of digital transformation and real-world wisdom, hosted by the accomplished Pamela Isom. With over 25 years of experience guiding leaders in corporate, public, and private sectors, Pamela, the CEO and Founder of IsAdvice & Consulting LLC, is a veteran in successfully navigating the complex realms of artificial intelligence, innovation, cyber issues, governance, data management, and ethical decision-making.

Breakthroughs don’t happen by accident—they happen when curiosity meets clarity and purpose. Pamela Isom sits down with Dr. Kim Budil, Director of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, to explore how a physics mindset, public service, and bold partnerships are accelerating discovery in nuclear deterrence, AI, and fusion energy.

Kim shares how she moved from tabletop lasers to leading one of the nation’s most consequential labs, and why her job blends infrastructure, people, strategy, and outreach. We get practical about translating complex science into plain language, then dive into the lab’s core mission: ensuring a safe, secure, and reliable nuclear stockpile without testing. From there, we connect the dots to broader national security work in hypersonics, cyber, space, and biosecurity—where modeling, extreme materials, and systems engineering carry the load.

The conversation zeroes in on Genesis, the Department of Energy’s initiative to double research productivity with AI. Kim explains how curated datasets, El Capitan’s 45,000 GPUs, and tight links to private AI labs can help models “speak science and engineering.” We unpack lighthouse challenges like stabilizing fusion plasmas, optimizing inertial targets, designing radiation-tolerant materials, and using AI for closed-loop additive manufacturing. On fusion, she charts the rise from the historic gain over one to shots exceeding eight megajoules, and outlines what’s needed for commercialization: durable materials, tritium breeding, 24/7 operations, and efficiency leaps—best pursued through multi-party public–private partnerships.

Kim is candid about AGI, the limits of scale, and why human creativity still matters. She also makes a compelling case for inclusion and excellence in hiring across every role that powers big science. The takeaway is a call to become science-literate and steward powerful tools responsibly as AI, quantum, and fusion converge to reshape daily life.

If this conversation expanded your view of how science advances, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your biggest insight or question.

Transcript

[00:00] Pamela Isom: This podcast is for informational purposes only.

[00:27] Personal views and opinions expressed by our podcast guests are their own and not legal advice,

[00:35] neither health tax nor professional nor official statements by their organizations.

[00:42] Guest views may not be those of the host.

[00:50] Hello and welcome to AI or not, the Podcast, where business leaders from around the globe share wisdom and insights that are needed right now to address issues and guide success in your artificial intelligence and your digital transformation journey.

[01:05] I am Pamela Isom and I am your podcast host and I am so thrilled to have Dr. Kim Budil, Director of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory with us today.

[01:18] Kim,

[01:19] you're such an amazing leader. I'm so glad we finally got a chance to touch base and make this here happen. And I'm sure the listeners are going to be excited to hear from you as well.

[01:29] So Kim Welco, welcome to AI Or Not.

[01:31] Kim Budil: Thanks Pamela. It's great to be here. I'm glad we were able to finally get our paths across.

[01:36] Pamela Isom: For those who may not know you and your journey,

[01:42]  would you mind giving us a little bit of background on where you're at and how you ended up leading one of the most exciting national laboratories in the country?

[01:53] Kim Budil: Sure.

[01:54] I'd like to tell you I had a great plan and started out exactly the right road and knew all the twists and turns along the way, but I fear that that story is neither true nor is interesting.

[02:03] I ended up as an undergraduate majoring in physics,

[02:08] which wasn't my first choice. I was planning to go on to law school,

[02:12] but I talked to some lawyers who told me that having a technical degree would be really useful. It opened up other areas of the law, like patent law.

[02:21] I was really good at math and science in high school, so I thought, that's okay, I can do that.

[02:26] And as soon as I started taking physics classes, I was hooked. It was harder than anything else. It challenged me in really important ways. And I love the way in physics you start with very fundamental concepts and then you build up so you don't have to memorize a lot of stuff.

[02:41] You need to understand a few concepts and then you sort of build your universe out of that.

[02:46] So I ended up going on to graduate school. I went to University of California, Davis for graduate school and they had a program that was joint with Lawrence Livermore National Lab.

[02:57] So I actually did my dissertation research here at Livermore,

[03:00] was a student employee during those years,

[03:03] which was a remarkable experience.

[03:05] I'm an experimental physicist and this place is just a wonderland for experimental science.

[03:10] So I started doing laser experiments first small tabletop Laser experiments.

[03:15] And then I moved on to working on the big lasers here as a postdoc and then a staff member.

[03:21] And slowly but surely, I worked my way around all the exciting missions at the lab. Doing national security work in our nuclear security programs,

[03:29] working in materials research,

[03:32] working in Washington a couple times on detail at Department of Energy and the National Nuclear Security Administration,

[03:38] standing up our nuclear counterterrorism program,

[03:41] working at University of California in an executive role overseeing national labs.

[03:46] And then finally in 2019, I came back here to run the weapons program. And in 2021, I became director.

[03:53] I think I ran out of jobs. And when you've had every other job, they make you director.

[03:59] That's my take.

[04:00] Pamela Isom: Well, that's exciting.

[04:03] I'm pretty sure that's not how you got the position, but that's exciting to hear. Congratulations on all your success.

[04:10] So now what's it like being the director of the lab?

[04:14] Kim Budil: So director is a really interesting job. It's unlike anything I've ever done before because it is quite literally a little bit of everything.

[04:21] So on any given day, I might talk about our site infrastructure.

[04:26] Electrical, sewers, water, et cetera,

[04:29] new construction, trying to build new buildings on our site.

[04:33] Cool science.

[04:34] Our quantum center, or our AI efforts, or our ignition experiments at the big laser here.

[04:41] Personnel issues.

[04:42] People are both the best and the most challenging part of every job or strategy we've been working on. Thinking about how to prepare the lab for the future and how changes in science and technology are going to impact us and how we can be best prepared to meet those.

[04:58] So it's all of those things and more.

[05:01] I think one thing people don't appreciate is a lot of the director's job is outwardly focused as well,

[05:07] representing the science that we do.

[05:09] Working with our colleagues in the government to build our programs and decide on the work that we'll pursue over the course of the year.

[05:17] Educating our colleagues in the Congress on the work that we do so they understand how our precious resources are being expended on behalf of the American people.

[05:26] And talking to public.

[05:28] I feel particularly as a publicly funded institution,

[05:31] it's really important for us to share what we do and why we do it so that people can appreciate what these investments are for.

[05:40] Pamela Isom: How do you go about making sure that people understand what you do and how you do it?

[05:47] Kim Budil: Well, I guess there's a few things that go into that. One is that I think of myself as a simple person. I mean, I did atomic physics for my dissertation.

[05:56] What I liked about atomic physics is if you have one atom,

[06:00] you can really understand it. You can explain how it behaves in a strong laser field, which is what I did from very foundational principles.

[06:09] So I think that's an asset. When I go into talking with the public,

[06:13] I tend to distill things for myself down to simple, relatable concepts so that people can really relate to the work that we're doing.

[06:21] A lot of it can seem very esoteric and distant,

[06:26] but it doesn't have to be that way.

[06:28] So I spent a lot of time thinking about what's important for people to know and distilling my communications with them down to those few really salient facts and trying to make them relatable.

[06:40] So as an example,

[06:42] I mentioned ignition.

[06:43] These are our fusion experiments where we compress these little tiny pellets filled with fusion fuel up to very high temperatures and densities.

[06:52] And so when we're describing that process,

[06:54] one of the things that's important when we squeeze those pellets up is they have to go from a very large size to a very small size.

[07:02] And we usually say, imagine if you were trying to squeeze a basketball down to the size of a pea.

[07:08] So that's a good example. Target's very small to start with, but it gives people a sense of the scales that we work at and the extreme conditions that we're trying to work at at that facility as an example.

[07:21] Pamela Isom: So for those that are listening, that are maybe aspiring to become a national lab director, are there values or practices or things that you would recommend?

[07:37] Kim Budil: Oh, absolutely.

[07:39] So I love this place.

[07:42] I think the work we do is very important.

[07:45] I'm very passionate about it,

[07:47] and I just feel incredibly lucky to be here. So I think the most important thing is to really be interested in the work. I mean, for the people here,

[07:57] I am not a deep expert in everything that they do,

[08:00] but I am really interested in learning. And every day I'm presented with new ideas, new problems, new challenges, new scientific results that challenge me and force me to learn new things.

[08:11] And then I have to go and explain those to other people, which really tests your understanding of what's going on. So being curious is really important.

[08:18] I think, in any great career.

[08:20] That's what opens the most interesting doors. From my perspective,

[08:25] you have to be very persistent.

[08:28] Most of science is not success,

[08:32] it's trying and failing. Asking interesting questions and getting answers you didn't anticipate.

[08:38] And so you have to really be willing to work through that process.

[08:41] And the times when it goes the way you need are just very exciting.

[08:47] But a Lot of your time is filled with troubleshooting and problem solving and thinking about, you know, what the next question is that we need to address.

[08:56] I think for a lab director,

[08:58] you really do have to know a little bit about everything.

[09:03] So I do know a fair bit about what it takes to build big construction projects or what our electrical distribution system looks like, or what are the regulatory frameworks under which we operate.

[09:17] Where are the areas where the public interest will be stirred that we really need to engage with our community?

[09:23] How does the government work? What's the budget process?

[09:26] You know, how is policy made?

[09:28] How do people decide what's critically important in national security?

[09:32] I really am interested in all those things,

[09:34] and I think that makes a big difference in doing a job like this,

[09:39] being able to really dig in and help shape good decisions around all the issues that come with running a big organization.

[09:49] Pamela Isom: So can you consider all of that? So I heard you say, be curious, be relatable,

[09:54] Which I like that, right? Because, yes, you have to explain things so people can understand it and then be persistent.

[10:01] And then you said, know a little bit about everything. So if I listen to what you were saying,

[10:07] the mission of the lab, what's your core mission?

[10:11] Kim Budil: So our core mission is nuclear deterrence.

[10:14] So we're responsible for the safety, security, and reliability of a set of systems in the enduring nuclear weapons stockpile.

[10:22] And today, we're also in the process of modernizing the stockpile and the production enterprise that goes along with it.

[10:29] So that's a big part of what we do.

[10:31] Maybe two thirds of the lab, by budget, is devoted to that mission.

[10:35] And the way we do it is by applying science and technology to advanced manufacturing technologies,

[10:43] to understand the characteristics and the operations of nuclear weapons without nuclear testing, additional nuclear testing,

[10:50] to understand the performance of materials in very extreme environments,

[10:54] to understand how these integrated systems work.

[10:57] And so those tools and capabilities can be applied to other problem sets.

[11:04] So then we go into other national security missions across the spectrum.

[11:09] Conventional munitions,

[11:11] hypersonics, directed energy, electronic warfare, space,

[11:15] cyber biosecurity.

[11:17] And we use those tools to try to solve important national security problems across that space.

[11:23] So I usually tell people our lab is a national security lab with a nuclear core.

[11:28] Pamela Isom: And so if I think about what you just said there, what's that association with everything that we're hearing about Genesis?

[11:37] Kim Budil: So Genesis is the Department of Energy's new, exciting mission to really transform the way we do science and engineering through the application of artificial intelligence.

[11:49] The goal for Genesys, the big goal,

[11:52] is to double research productivity over the Next decade.

[11:56] So what does that mean?

[11:58] That means we're going to need new computing infrastructure to really train AI models to speak science and engineering.

[12:07] The large language models today speak languages,

[12:11] so they need to be trained with new kinds of data to curate and apply the vast quantities of data that the Department of Energy, the national labs,

[12:21] the national security community have on scientific problems of interest so that they are ready to be used by these AI models to build new modeling and simulation tools that can take advantage of the capabilities of new AI tools and new AI approaches to work in partnership with the private sector and with academic partners.

[12:44] You know, a lot of the money in AI is in the private sector.

[12:47] So to take advantage of the advances they've made and work in partnership with them, to bring them into our context and then to work with agencies across the government then to use that toolkit, that platform we're calling it,

[12:59] to solve other problems.

[13:01] So there's a lot going on in Genesis. It's really exciting to think about building,

[13:07] you know, this incredibly powerful AI driven toolkit for science and engineering.

[13:13] But we're just getting started,

[13:15] so a lot of work to do yet.

[13:18] And in the national security community,

[13:20] you know, we've been making investments here.

[13:24] And, well, first of all, we've been working in AI and related technologies, machine learning, et cetera, for decades. That's what we do. We push the boundaries of science and technology.

[13:34] But,

[13:35] you know, this emergence of these large language models for us has been a huge opportunity. We sit right here on the edge of the Silicon Valley.

[13:43] We have long standing relationships with all the big computing companies and the new AI labs.

[13:48] And so for the last few years, we've been using our internal R and D money to really start building our capabilities, building people, expertise, tools,

[13:59] relationships with these private sector players in particular to get ready for a more concerted push using all 17 of the DOE national labs.

[14:10] Pamela Isom: So that's pretty interesting.

[14:11] Everybody's excited. Industry,

[14:14] government, from what I can see, everybody's excited about Genesis. You know, I am, because it's like, yes, I recognize this. So we're all excited out here and are rooting for the program to be a success and of course, looking to see what we can do to help make the program a success.

[14:30] So that's cool. I'm glad you gave me, gave us that update now.

[14:35] And I'll circle back with you on some other things.

[14:37] So if I think about Genesis Fusion as a future,

[14:42] I know that the lab made glow headlines with the ignition breakthrough,

[14:49] the fusion and the leadership around fusion.

[14:53] I was glued to the 60 Minutes episode. True story.

[14:57] Probably like so many others, truly inspirational.

[15:00] So now I'd like to know what's happening with fusion.

[15:03] Kim Budil: So this is another area that has just changed so much in the last five years.

[15:10] And so in 2022,

[15:12] as you noted, we had the first ever,

[15:16] and still the only platform,

[15:20] fusion platform that has ever achieved gain greater than 1 in the laboratory.

[15:26] So we used a little over 2 megajoules of laser energy to produce 3.15 megajoules of fusion energy in that first experiment.

[15:35] So over the last few years, we've been able to build on that,

[15:40] Optimizing the target design,

[15:43] increasing the yield.

[15:44] Our peak yield is now over 8 megajoules for a gain of over 4.

[15:49] And then starting to think about working with the private sector, Very significant private sector effort in fusion energy.

[15:58] So we didn't build a,

[16:00] a big laser to do fusion energy,

[16:03] Although it is a key enabler and a key physics demonstration of what's possible.

[16:08] We use that for our national security missions. So we use those platforms to do really important work on the kind of extreme conditions that you can only create in those reactions.

[16:19] But the private sector,

[16:21] There are about 45 private fusion companies now, and they've got almost $10 billion in private capital behind them,

[16:29] Pursuing a wide variety of approaches to fusion energy.

[16:33] From magnetic fusion tokamaks, which are big donut shaped devices that use magnets to contain plasmas at lower densities for longer times.

[16:46] So as magnetic fusion is low and slow to what we do, inertial confinement fusion, where you contain a small amount of fuel, but at extremely high temperatures and densities for a very short time,

[16:58] so hot and fast and many different techniques in between, Stellarators and pulse power driven concepts and other myriad ways that you might consider producing fusion in a laboratory.

[17:11] So how do we use our capabilities,

[17:14] our scientific know how to work with the private sector to help them speed these breakthroughs toward commercialization?

[17:23] Was recently part of a commission run by the special competitive studies project that laid out some ideas for how to accelerate the commercialization of fusion energy,

[17:36] including increasing the investment in the public research side,

[17:41] so that we could help close some of the remaining scientific gaps to practical fusion energy.

[17:46] You need materials that can live in high radiation environments for very long times.

[17:51] You need a closed fuel cycle. So you need to understand how to breed tritium in a reactor so that the reactor can make its own fuel.

[18:00] You need to understand the integrated system that's going to operate 24 7, 365 for an energy system.

[18:07] And we need to make These systems much more efficient.

[18:10] So we have ideas based on the work we've done on how to make inertial confinement fusion systems efficient enough to be practical energy producing systems.

[18:20] And so we want to make sure that all this public investment is best utilized by the private sector so they don't have to reinvent the wheel, as it were,

[18:28] to make those advances.

[18:30] So super exciting times,

[18:31] super exciting.

[18:33] Pamela Isom: How are you going to do that? What are you thinking about as far as your last sentence? How what are you thinking? Can you say?

[18:41] Kim Budil: Sure. So a huge focus for the last couple years,

[18:45] it's true in AI, it's true in fusion, is on public private partnerships.

[18:50] So historically the way we work with the private sector are through things like cooperative research and development agreements, Cradus.

[18:57] These are really cumbersome,

[19:00] complex,

[19:01] slow moving instruments to work under and they're not really well matched to a very dynamic, fast evolving industry context.

[19:12] And it's typically one company at a time.

[19:14] So for example, in fusion,

[19:17] if we want to work materials for fusion chambers,

[19:21] all of the fusion companies need that.

[19:24] So it would be more effective for them to work together with the labs to solve that problem so that we can raise the capabilities of all the companies at once.

[19:35] None of them has enough money by themselves to solve this problem.

[19:39] So we're looking to build new types of partnership agreements where we can work with multiple companies at one time.

[19:46] We're looking for ways to make the traditional processes faster and more streamlined, like having already agreed upon terms and conditions so that we don't have to go through many, many cycles of approvals and changes with the Department of Energy and looking for creative ideas with the community for how we can best work with them to enable some of these things to happen.

[20:12] So it's early days on this,

[20:16] but I feel like there's good support,

[20:19] there's great support in the Congress.

[20:22] Very, very strong and enthusiastic fusion caucus that really is eager to help.

[20:28] The Department of Energy is very excited. The Secretary has talked about fusion a great deal. Dario Gill, the Undersecretary for Science is talking about fusion.

[20:36] And there's a relationship between fusion progress and AI because the physics of fusion is incredibly complicated.

[20:43] But these very powerful AI tools are helping us make much more rapid progress in modeling and simulation of fusion systems.

[20:52] And so that should really accelerate the cycle of discovery to support commercialization activities.

[20:58] So some sense there's sort of a grand unified theory of fusion and AI and quantum is coming together at the department that I think is going to be pretty exciting.

[21:11] Pamela Isom: I was going to ask you about what role did you see AI playing?

[21:14] You just described it there, so that's cool.

[21:17] So not just for commercialization though, right? So do you have other use cases?

[21:22] Kim Budil: Oh, for sure. So part of the Genesis mission is to establish a set of what we're calling lighthouse challenges or grand challenge problems.

[21:31] And so one of those certainly is around.

[21:33] At least one of those is around fusion.

[21:36] That could be how to control plasmas in magnetic fusion devices because they're prone to instabilities. And AI could be a powerful tool in controlling those instabilities to using AI driven design tools to optimize target designs for laser driven experiments.

[21:54] So that's one use case. High radiation environments can use these AI tools to design new types of materials, either new combinations of elements or engineered structures that make the materials more resistant to radiation.

[22:10] And again, AI is a huge enabler of that. And we can even use AI in the manufacturing cycle.

[22:15] So we're building loops where we can use AI to control our.

[22:20] We have a lot of work in additive manufacturing in particular, where we can use AI to control the machines,

[22:26] to monitor the process in situ using diagnostics,

[22:30] and then actually make on the fly corrections if an error should be introduced at some time during the print so that, you know, again, we can print incredibly complicated structures,

[22:40] functionalize materials.

[22:42] And we hope that this AI driven cycle will allow us to really accelerate the process of both discovery and production of new materials that can support these,

[22:53] these missions.

[22:54] And of course, the lighthouse problems will span many spaces from engineering biomolecules to new ways to look at chemical processes like the development of explosives,

[23:06] to,

[23:06] you know, you name it. We think AI is going to be a game changer in our understanding of the universe.

[23:15] Pamela Isom: So if, if I were wondering if you thought that your perspective on are we struggling in the AI transformation journey or succeeding?

[23:28] I'm just saying, hypothetically, wondering what Kim is thinking.

[23:31] What's your perspective? Because it sounds like you feel like that we're, we're doing pretty good. So tell me more.

[23:39] Kim Budil: I think it's both.

[23:41] It's very early days.

[23:43] I mean, the large language models have made remarkable advances,

[23:47] but we're just beginning to scratch the surface in applications for real hardcore scientific research.

[23:55] One of the big challenges we face is just curating the data that we have and putting it in a form that's findable and amenable to training for these AI tools.

[24:08] DOE has all these huge user facilities that generate data by the truckload,

[24:13] but it's not AI ready right out of the gate, so it needs to be curated and put in a form that's useful and in a place where it's accessible for us.

[24:23] In the national security community,

[24:25] we work with classified data.

[24:27] So we need to create infrastructure and data structures on the classified network so that we can do our national security work behind all the protocols and firewalls that enable us to keep that works secure.

[24:40] So that's another set of infrastructure challenges.

[24:44] And today we have great compute capabilities.

[24:48] So in my lab we have El Capitan, which is number one on the top 500 list for supercomputers.

[24:54] That machine,

[24:56] that machine has 45,000 GPUs in it. So it is a mighty beast for doing AI related work.

[25:05] And we're working closely. That machine is based on an AMD chip technology. We're working closely with amd, for example, to build the software stack to enable us to really utilize that machine fully.

[25:15] But we probably need more compute resources too.

[25:18] So that's on the challenge side. There's a lot of infrastructure to be built.

[25:23] And the way we do science today doesn't have the level of connectedness and community that these tools are going to really foster. Where it won't be one researcher in their lab with their data set.

[25:39] It will be a huge community of researchers with access to a broad range of data sets that are really going to bring the next set of discoveries forward.

[25:47] On the progress side,

[25:49] we've already shown that we can make dramatic advances in our ability to model fusion plasmas, to discover materials,

[25:55] to advance drug discovery and the modeling of biomolecules. I mean, the possibilities are really quite extraordinary,

[26:04] but a lot of work to be done still.

[26:06] Pamela Isom: So what about AGI? What do you think about that? You think that's real or you think that's hype?

[26:12] Kim Budil: I don't know that it's hype, except in the context of,

[26:17] you know, AGI is around the corner. I think that is hype.

[26:21] You can see it already in the current generation of models. They've gotten a lot smarter,

[26:25] but they still don't think the way people do and they still aren't capable of doing the kind of discovery and creative work that the human brain is capable of.

[26:36] And we're talking about building, you know, gigawatt scale data centers to enable more training, more learning, more whatever. Your brain runs on 20 watts.

[26:46] So people do something very foundationally different than these algorithms do. It's not clear that just making them bigger and giving them more data will eventually result in AGI.

[26:57] It may be, I don't know, I'm not an expert.

[27:00] That's just my feeling. But there is something special about the way the brain works that allows humans to do something the machines have not yet learned to do.

[27:11] Pamela Isom: Yep. I wouldn't trade it for nothing in the world.

[27:14] Kim Budil: I think it's important we have to pay attention. Right. This is not something that you just want to let a powerful technology loose on the world without really thinking through deeply what the implications are for people.

[27:28] And I don't know that that's regulation per se,

[27:32] but it does mean that you want.

[27:34] At least this is my perspective. Maybe it's a little biased.

[27:37] You want organizations like the national labs involved because we're working in the public interest.

[27:44] So we are going to be thinking about the implications of these tools and their capabilities through that lens.

[27:51] And for the National Security Lab, we tend to see things through a lens darkly. So we will be looking for ways in which these could be put to bad purposes or ways in which bad things could happen from the use of these tools.

[28:05] And I think that relationship is really important.

[28:08] This is one of the first times in history where a very powerful set of technologies is outside the hands of the government and being driven mostly by a huge margin in terms of investment by the private sector.

[28:25] And so we should think about that. What does that mean?

[28:28] Pamela Isom: Yeah, that's why I asked the question, because it's definitely something that we should be thinking about. We just know you can't get top the human brain, so we shouldn't try,

[28:38] I guess. But yes, like one of those where you're not quite sure what to do. So just pay attention and partake in the research if you can. Yeah.

[28:46] When I was at doe, you are so supportive and we need that. Right. So women in emerging tech and emerging areas like this,

[28:58] they. They look around and we want the support structure, but we also want to be there for others.

[29:03] Right. So I am going to thank you again on this podcast for all the support that you did provide while I was there at energy and even for.

[29:13] Because you're still there. Right. So it's nice to see you and I'm so thankful to have you as a leader out here that is doing what you're doing. So I really appreciate it.

[29:25] And I want to know,

[29:27] how do you see women emerging in AI leadership?

[29:31] Kim Budil: So I think the most important thing that's happened over the last couple decades is that the number of women who've pursued these fields has gone up very significantly,

[29:44] so that the community looks more like the world at large and people feel more at home in the community.

[29:52] And we've created an inclusive environment that allows people to achieve their full potential.

[29:58] I really believe that we hire here for excellence,

[30:03] and excellence comes from many places.

[30:07] So you have to cast a wide net and make sure that you're not leaving talented people behind wherever they may come from. I mean, for me,

[30:16] I'm a very proud product of all public institutions of higher education,

[30:21] right?

[30:22] So I don't have the kind of scientific pedigree that others might have,

[30:27] but I did have skills and capabilities that allowed me to be very successful here.

[30:32] So I'm eternally grateful that people looked at that and not at what school I graduated from as their first criteria. And so I just think that's important. We have to treat each person as an individual and look at what they bring to the table.

[30:48] And it takes more than just classroom learning to be a research scientist.

[30:54] And it takes more than research scientists, actually, to do research. Big science,

[30:58] right?

[30:59] I need people to do science and engineering at the top level, but they need people who can do ES and H, and people who can do facility maintenance and people who can do procurements and keep our financial systems in order and HR systems and so on and so forth.

[31:16] So for me, that's really the clarion call is to appreciate everybody for what they bring to the table and really give them the chance to contribute in the way we know they're capable of.

[31:30] Pamela Isom: Well, I think you do,

[31:32] and so I appreciate it. I think that you do that, and we need that. So again,

[31:39] I'd say keep on doing that because we need it. We just need it. And by the way, I try to do that today in my role in the private sector.

[31:46] So I try to make sure that I am very respectful of the various talents and if I can do something to bring it together in the mission that I have today.

[32:02] So I appreciate that. I just have two more questions.

[32:05] Has there been any moments in your work that you felt were particularly transformative or surprising that you could talk about?

[32:15] Kim Budil: Sure.

[32:17] I'll give one example that's sociological and one experience that was more technical.

[32:24] So relatively early in my career, I got my first opportunity to go to Washington, D.C. on assignment, and I went to the. What was then the Office of Defense Science as the science advisor in the Dynamic Material Properties campaign.

[32:38] And I showed up in the government eager. I was super excited. I always was interested in government.

[32:45] And I learned so much that reshaped my whole worldview.

[32:50] My opinion of the government went way up.

[32:52] My opinion of my own lab went way down.

[32:55] And my understanding of what it takes to really do both of Those jobs changed in very fundamental ways.

[33:02] My opinion of the government went up because there were so many dedicated people who were really trying hard to do very important things with limited resources,

[33:11] and often they didn't have the kind of technical background or knowledge that would have really been helpful to them.

[33:16] So the need for people to support them to come on these detail assignments,

[33:22] bringing more scientific expertise directly into the government was really important,

[33:26] and I felt valued for that.

[33:28] And also taught me that in many cases,

[33:32] it's not deep expertise that's needed.

[33:36] It really is a basic understanding of the science and technology in question.

[33:40] And so I was often the most qualified person to answer a question, even if it was something that I wasn't an expert at.

[33:46] But with my own lab,

[33:48] you know, we were defensive with interacting with our federal colleagues,

[33:54] and I think that's a mistake.

[33:56] I think we are working in partnership. That's the deal.

[34:00] And we're spending taxpayer resources, and so the level of trust and transparency with our colleagues in the government has to be extraordinarily high.

[34:09] So I've really devoted myself to building both,

[34:12] addressing both of those things,

[34:14] working hard to make sure that my colleagues in the government are well supported and making sure the people at the lab approach those interactions. With the right spirit and mindset, we're partners.

[34:24] You've got to treat things like that.

[34:28] On the technical front,

[34:29] I've done many different things over the arc of my career,

[34:33] and I think,

[34:34] and I trained as an experimentalist,

[34:36] and what I learned over time was the critical importance of that foundation.

[34:41] I had a foundational amount of knowledge in physics,

[34:46] I had a foundational toolkit in experimental science.

[34:50] And over the years, I added different tools. I learned to do computing and use big codes, and I learned about materials and other areas of physics.

[35:01] And so from a technical perspective,

[35:03] thinking about your career not as a discrete piece of knowledge, but as building your toolkit and then finding ways to beneficially apply those tools to solve problems is really what makes a great scientific career.

[35:19] So if you look at people who have big accomplishments,

[35:21] and I had the great good fortune as a graduate student to work with two women who went on to win the Nobel Prize in physics. It's just unbelievable.

[35:33] You know, they were.

[35:35] They taught me that mindset. You have something to offer.

[35:40] You have skills. Roll up your sleeves and see how your skills can help solve this problem.

[35:46] Don't spend your time worrying about what you don't know.

[35:48] You know, your job is to learn and grow and build your toolkit.

[35:52] And I think that's just a really Important message.

[35:55] Don't be discouraged.

[35:56] Those moments are just an opportunity to learn something new.

[36:00] Pamela Isom: Yeah. And I love the fact that you said, and you're building your toolkit because every new experience is an addition to your toolkit. I like that.

[36:09] Kim Budil: Especially the bad ones. Those are often the most formative and where you learn the most. And they're important. They're all important.

[36:16] Pamela Isom: It's true. It's true. It's very true.

[36:19] Okay, so I don't know if there's anything else you want to talk about before I ask you to share words of wisdom or a call to action.

[36:27] So if there's something you're thinking about that you want to discuss,

[36:30] if I missed anything, please feel free and then share your words of wisdom or.

[36:37] And a call to action.

[36:39] Kim Budil: So I don't think there's anything. We did a great job of covering the waterfront. I think we are living in an incredibly important and interesting moment in time where science and technology has become so foundational to our lives that it's hard to overstate how important it is for people to become conversant and comfortable with science and technology.

[37:07] You don't have to be a scientist,

[37:09] but you have to be able to engage with these critical concepts and understand and appreciate the implications of the technologies that we rely on for our daily lives. It's just.

[37:24] It's never been more important.

[37:26] The positive side of that is we have never had an opportunity like we have today to just reshape the way scientific research is done and accelerate the cycle of learning in ways that we can't even imagine what it will enable.

[37:44] I mean, all these great moments in scientific history have this character to them where you can feel something happening. You can sort of feel momentum gathering about something new.

[37:54] This case AI, the emergence of quantum technologies as a reality,

[37:59] prospects for fusion, other things.

[38:01] There is going to be an explosion of learning and advancement over the next decade in science, technology, infusion, in compute, in AI, in quantum,

[38:14] in biosciences, in human health, in other areas that are going to foundationally reshape our lives.

[38:20] And I can't imagine a better time to be here than right now.

[38:26] Pamela Isom: I appreciate those words of wisdom. I think I hear a call to action in there, too, which is to. To get in the know. Right?

[38:35] Kim Budil: You're kind of, yeah, this is not a moment. I don't feel like you can just say, well, I don't really care about science, or I don't really understand technology. I'm just living my life here.

[38:46] I don't think that's Right.

[38:47] I think you have to acknowledge and embrace the way our lives are lived today.

[38:53] And I don't know about you,

[38:55] I don't go anywhere without at least one of these.

[38:58] Can you imagine going on a road trip without maps,

[39:01] software,

[39:02] or what you would do if you couldn't text people when you needed help or order things online and have them show up at your home the next day?

[39:12] I mean,

[39:13] it's just nutty. I mean, I think I was trying to explain to my kids what it was like before cell phones.

[39:20] When you wanted to call somebody,

[39:22] you had to be home and they had to be home and you had to.

[39:26] You have a phone that was connected to the wall.

[39:29] Pamela Isom: Exactly. Remember trying to go from room to room carrying those big old. Those long lines, like.

[39:35] Kim Budil: Yes. You just. It's important every now and then, particularly for people in my generation, to think how much has changed just since I was in college.

[39:45] And I don't want the next generation to not appreciate the enormous power they have at their fingertips.

[39:54] And with great power comes great responsibility.

[39:58] They need to use it wisely, I tell you.

[40:00] Pamela Isom: That's the truth, isn't it? That is the truth. Okay. This has been really good. I love talking to you.

[40:06] Well, this has been great. I'm so glad that you were able to join me today. I'll wrap it up here and just say thanks again.

[40:13] I appreciate you being you. I'm so looking forward to. We're going to figure this out, right? So I'm looking forward to figuring out how we can do something together.

[40:22] I'll reach out to your teams or something at some point, but thank you for being on the show,

[40:27] and I just look forward to the playback, and I'm sure the listeners will really enjoy hearing from you, so thank you so much.

[40:36] Kim Budil: Thank you, Pamela. It's been a lot of fun.