Movie RX
Dr. Benjamin prescribes movies that help and heal through his own experiences or the experiences of others.
Movie RX
DUNE (1984) ft. Jim
Across the vast desert of cinematic history stands a towering, contentious monolith: David Lynch's Dune. As this ambitious adaptation celebrates its 40th anniversary this December, father-son hosting duo Jim and Dr. Benjamin unpack what makes this film such a fascinating cultural artifact despite its commercial failure.
The journey begins with personal connections—Jim discovering the film as a theater manager when it was the only VHS his boss would purchase for rental, and Benjamin watching a carefully edited version provided by a childhood friend. Both describe how the film's complex political themes and unique visual style left them contemplating its depths for days afterward, ultimately leading them to Frank Herbert's seminal novel.
This episode dives deep into the production details that made Dune 1984 such an ambitious undertaking: 200 sets constructed across 16 sound stages, three square miles of Mexican desert hand-cleared by 200 workers, and a star-studded cast including Jürgen Prochnow, Patrick Stewart, Max von Sydow, and even Sting. The hosts explore how Lynch approached the adaptation as an art piece rather than straightforward storytelling—creating something that feels more like an impressionistic painting than a literal translation.
What emerges is a fascinating discussion about adaptation itself. From the controversial "weirding modules" to the over-the-top portrayal of Baron Harkonnen, Lynch's creative choices reveal the essential challenges of translating dense literary works to the screen. Yet despite its deviations and commercial failure, the film created enduring mental images that shaped how generations of readers visualized characters when returning to Herbert's novels.
Whether you're a longtime fan of the spice-filled universe or curious about this cult classic, this episode offers a thoughtful exploration of why even flawed adaptations can open doorways to profound literary journeys. Join us for this nostalgic yet insightful examination of plans within plans, walking without rhythm, and the enduring legacy of a notorious box office disappointment.
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Hello and welcome to MovieRx Recreational Use, where we set healing aside and watch just to feel good. I am your prescribing doctor, dr Benjamin, and joining me today is sort of a phenom of a podcaster A regular host on several podcasts, such as the Orbital Sword Babylon Project podcast, the Honorverse Today podcast and, as it would be relevant to today's episode, the Honorverse Today podcast and, as it would be relevant to today's episode, one of the regular hosts on the Dune Saga podcasts as well, where they talk about the books, the movies and pretty much all things Dune, but not only all of that. As a nod to Father's Day, he's also my dad, so today I have Jim. Welcome Dad. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing great and it's been really kind of hard waiting as long as I have to do this movie of unpack on this one being that it's a 40-year-old movie this year.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:It's hard to believe December of this year it's 40 years old, and so some of the basic info. I'm going to go ahead and just kind of toss that out there right now. This movie was released in 1984, directed and the screenplay was written by David Lynch. He kind of did both of those and normally I would also put who stars in the movie. But there's a shitload of people in this movie. So we're, and we've pretty much got a whole section of people in this movie. So, uh, we're, we're, and we've pretty much got a whole section devoted to that later on.
Speaker 2:So I'm not even going to go into who's in this movie, but uh, um, but one of the one of the things that I noticed when looking through your talking points is that you've got, uh, uh, like a lot of the stuff in this was stuff that kind of coincided with with what I was thinking. Uh, uh, about this episode. Oh, so I just kind of I just kind of mashed them together and just made, just made it. So it's like going to be just kind of a back and forth sort of thing. So, uh, the first one I have is is discovering Dune. So, uh, tell, tell me about your experience coming into this movie.
Speaker 1:Okay, I had, I had heard about Dune a long time ago, Okay, I mean, way before the movie came out, people were walking all over the place carrying a copy of the book with them as I was growing up.
Speaker 1:But you know, the book was like five inches thick and that was a little bit for me to pick up on, and so I I didn't, I didn't bother trying to read it and I thought maybe one day I will read it. So, uh, fast forward to several years later, when I was running the fox Theater in Sydney, nebraska, and the person I worked for at the time, who was actually he was very good to me, but he did something that really, really disgusted me and he went and he bought a video store and put it in the lobby of the movie theater. Yeah, now that sounds bizarre, okay, but at that particular time, which was like 40 years ago, there were a lot of theaters that were doing that because people weren't going to the movies to watch the movies in the theater, and so theater owners thought we're just going to grab that revenue from the rentals also.
Speaker 2:Well, and I mean it kind of detracts from the whole experience of going to a movie theater. Well, yeah, yeah, detracts from the whole, from the whole experience of going to a movie theater.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, when you're going to a movie theater, it's supposed to be. I. I mean it doesn't really feel much like that anymore, because so much of it is is, you know, you can watch in theater movies at home and things like that now and whatever. But it used to be going further back in history it was. It was just more of a like a glamorous sort of thing almost for some people. Yeah, but what's what's?
Speaker 1:I mean it was what's a movie theater now? It's a. It's a damn pole shed where they put up a few screens and projectors Right, and seats to the floor right and both seats to the floor. I mean the theaters when, when I was young, were ornate. I mean you might have five sets of curtains opening up before the show starts and right, you know they were pretty, all this sculpture and and things like that and that's's. It was yes, it was an experience, but that's kind of gone by the wayside. Throw up some pole sheds and put up eight or ten screens in there and you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then on top of that you've I mean, if you could imagine that kind of stuff being done today, if video rental stores were in any way sort of relevant today, you'd have people showing up in their you know sweatpants to rent a movie, to take company evenings out, and things like that, when people are supposed to be looking good, and then they show up in sweatpants to rent a movie. It's just nothing.
Speaker 1:No, it's. I, boss, went and bought this video store and put it up, and these great big boards that had ledges on them across the front of the theater covered all the windows, all right, and put these stupid movies up on these racks. And people were coming in and looking and saying, oh, we've already seen this, and walking out and I'll tell you what it. It crashed in in a matter of days. Okay, so, and one of the main complaints that people had that were coming in is why aren't you getting any new movies in here?
Speaker 2:Well, in the movie theater.
Speaker 1:Right. So I call, I call up to the boss and I tell him hey, you know, people are complaining. They've seen all this crap that they want to see. They want new stuff. And so he bought Dune 1984. All right, that was. Believe it or not, for the rest of the time that I was at the Fox Theater, that is the only new movie he bought. Now. Now you can laugh, because you can. You know, vhs tapes are no longer there. When they when they were, you get $5.99 for any movie. Believe it or not, those movies were 70 bucks.
Speaker 2:Right, actually, I remember the first time, the first time you went and bought a movie before, like when it was still in that rental phase. Yeah, I remembered, you bought a copy of Mr Holland's Opus and it was $99. Well, do you remember that?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I I don't remember that I don't.
Speaker 2:But Well, maybe, maybe mom ordered it for you or something, but I remembered looking at it and being like $99 for a tape. Like you can get tapes at Walmart for like 15 bucks.
Speaker 1:Well, when Dune was released on VHS tape, um, it was, it was $70. And so that? So that was the only new movie we got. So I, um, grabbed a machine and took it home, brought Dune home, sat down, watched it, sat down, watched it and I'll tell you what. I walked around after I saw that movie and thought about it for days and it was really neat, and I even caught myself walking without rhythm once in a while.
Speaker 2:You know it was hard for a music man to do, but yeah but it just seemed as though there was.
Speaker 1:There was something about the story that really made me think it was so darn deep and I mean, this is just the movie, right? So, um, that's kind of where I went to. Uh, I, I knew I had to read the book, so that's that's kind of how I got into that.
Speaker 2:I went and bought a paperback copy of the book and, uh, the rest is, as we say, history well and Well, and I suspect that that paperback copy of the book is the one that I started reading. If I remember right, yeah, most likely the way that I came into this movie was one of my friends, adam. You remember Adam, oh, yeah, yeah, well, adam had given me, uh, the opportunity to watch it. I I don't remember if, if he had it like recorded off a television or something, I, but it was very carefully done, so that the, so that the, uh, the, the commercials were edited out very, very well, um, but I, I was just enamored with this story, this movie, the, the, the, the way that it made me think about, uh, about all kinds of crazy things that that I never would have.
Speaker 2:Uh, I don't think that my mind, as young as I was at the time, god, don't think that my mind, as young as I was at the time, god, I think I was probably, I was probably 12 or 13 and and it just and it just kind of it, it like it did with you, it just kind of rolled with me for a while where I was, I was constantly thinking back to the various different things, the plans within plans and and all of that stuff and, and that, I think, was kind of what kind of kickstarted my political mind, um, at such a young age, and so, like you, um, watching the movie made me want to read the book.
Speaker 2:But what I remember about finding the book was that I had to go digging through so many damn boxes in the garage to find it, and when I finally did, the last third of the book had gotten wet with either water or oil or something and it was all pasted together, and so I could only read the first two thirds of the book and I had to and I had to very carefully pry the last, the last pages apart, and I could only get about two pages of that before before, like they just start ripping each other apart, oh, um, and invariably I ended up having to wait until I got into, uh, until I got into a school, uh, that that actually had it on their shelves. I don't know that this is a book that you'd find on shelves in schools anymore.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you what I just retired. It's going on two years and, yes, there were three copies of Dune in our library At your school, at school. That's awesome, and the reason for that is the librarian had no idea what was in the book.
Speaker 2:I would imagine.
Speaker 1:And of course it was the movie. The first newest iteration of Dune was brand new.
Speaker 2:Right. Was it like a movie cover book or was it like an original cover book that they had?
Speaker 1:It was actually a copy, I think, of one of the earlier covers with the sandworm on the front, nice. Yeah that's cool, that's awesome. Yeah, so we had about three copies of it cause a lot of kids wanted to, wanted to read it. Uh, I don't know any of them that made it through.
Speaker 2:And it's it is, can it can be kind of a hard read. Um, if, if you're not into, if you're not into the cerebral part of the story, I think it would be kind of difficult to read.
Speaker 1:as far as a book goes, it's going to be hard to read for a sixth grader, that is, that has an IQ of less than 150.
Speaker 2:Right right, um now. Now we've kind of we kind of talked about the movie, getting into it, getting into the books a little bit. Now I think something that might be kind of important to talk about is the popularity of this movie. It's not popular. There are, I mean, even people who love Dune, hate this movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know I know several people like that.
Speaker 2:Lots of people like that my, my producer and wife Jen. She loves the new movies and she loves to talk about Dune and she loves to talk about Dune. But I went to go review this last night for this recording today and she noped out and went and took a bath to read a different book.
Speaker 2:She just wanted nothing to do. No, I'm okay, I'll go do that and I mean I get it. I understand it's a 40-year-old movie, but as far as 40 years ago, this was kind of a, this was kind of a a monumental thing. Uh, I mean, they were, they were using cutting edge technology for the time, which, when you look back on it now, is kind of, eh, I mean they had, they had some some pretty big names and everything in this movie. Um, like, I mean, like you've got on here the, the whole list of the cast, uh, pretty much and uh, as, as people that were just kind of huge like a really big deal. Juergen Prognoff, huge, like a really big deal, juergen Prognoff, uh uh. Max von Sydow, um, patrick Stewart, richard Jordan, which I didn't really remember much about Richard Jordan until I went, you know, looking in the ID IMDB.
Speaker 2:Dean Stockwell, sting come on, now, this is Sting was in this movie. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, uh, shaddam IV, uh, what is it? Uh, jose Ferrer, yes, um. Stilgar Everett McGill, uh, linda Hunt I mean if, if there isn't, if there isn't a more monumental short woman in in movie history, it's Linda Hunt.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh yeah and then I also had to. She was big stuff. Uh yeah, around that time and she was, if I recall correctly there was a movie with mid-iron old schweizer nigger who who played a kindergarten teacher, kindergarten cop, and his principal was Linda Hunt was Linda Hunt and she's half as tall as he is and she'd look up and rip him out.
Speaker 2:That shit was awesome.
Speaker 1:It was great Kindergarten cop yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, and then I had to add one on there that I that I didn't have, uh, that you didn't have on your list, and that's Brad Dorif. Uh, he played Piter.
Speaker 2:Um, he was also Chucky and, oh gosh, yeah, he's been everywhere he, he's uh, he is what it in order to kind of jab at my producer a little bit, here he's on he's, he's a criminal minds guy. At my producer a little bit, here he's on he's, he's a criminal minds guy. Anybody who's anybody has been on criminal minds as a bad guy, including Mark Hamill, brad Dourif Uh, I mean all those guys. Brad Dourif was was probably the most memorable bad guy because he plays that crazy shit well.
Speaker 2:And he did, and he did it in this one too, even as, even as a mentat, so, uh, I mean heavy, heavy, heavy hitting cast with a lot of really, uh, crazy ideas. I I'm I'm assuming that people back at that time I mean you, you were around it like you were, you were in the industry when this stuff, when this stuff came out and happened and everything, so you would have more of an idea of how people received the. The list of people on this cast, um, like I mean the fact that sting was in a movie, like that kind of stuff now is just like it's, it's like token stuff, it's like, oh, we're going to throw that in there just so that we can make a couple extra bucks. The Rock was one of those things back in the late 90s, early 2000s. Let's put him in this mummy movie, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Well, they didn't push any particular cast person, with the exception of Kyle, the exception of, uh, kyle McLaughlin, right, you know um, they, they didn't really say, ooh, sting is in this. You know they, they didn't market it that way, which?
Speaker 2:probably, probably, did a lot for the movie. Um, I think in the long run, uh, although I mean honestly me, a younger me tell me that sting is in a movie and I'm going to be like, okay, cool, I'm going to watch it, just because I think it'd be funnier now, um, so, yeah, I mean, the cast in this movie was pretty, pretty, uh, uh, formidable. Um, the soundtrack, Toto.
Speaker 1:Well, let's, let's not move off the cast yet.
Speaker 2:but you've got something about the cast A little, a little a few, a few things.
Speaker 1:First of all, as you said, this is a great cast. I mean, you cannot argue with that list of list of people, but they, the cast, affected how I enjoyed the movie. Okay, to this day, if I'm sitting and reading a Dune book, and they are still writing them. Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson are still writing them. I just read one, the first of a new series, Juergen Prochnov. Anytime they say Duke Lito, juergen Prochnov is who hits here. Okay, now that's not to say that Isaacs, who the new?
Speaker 2:what's his first?
Speaker 1:name Jason Isaacs, who the new? Um, what's his first name? Uh, jason isaac. Jason isaacs, who is the new duke leto, did an outstanding job. So I'm not doing a comparison here of the cast, because I think the cast of both movies are incredible. Okay, but jürgen prochnov comes across as duke leto and patrick stewart was gurney. When I read about gurney, that's the picture I see. Uh, richard jordan uh, he, I think he really got big in logan's.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but but um he, he was great.
Speaker 2:Um, why I was thinking Jason, it's Oscar Isaac.
Speaker 1:Oscar Isaac Okay, thanks, uh. Jose Ferrer has been a giant for ever, okay, um, and, and just playing all different kinds of parts. Everett mcgill I mean he wasn't stellar, but he was cool, right. Of course we already talked about linda hunt, but some of these people, those are the images that come back to my mind as I read the books.
Speaker 2:Right, and for me a lot of it is actually kind of similar, or it had been for a long time, because I think I've read the first Dune book like six times now.
Speaker 1:I think I've got you beat by two or three times.
Speaker 2:Right and and so, like I, just I kind of, as when I, when I get to a new reading of it, depending on what my, what my exposure has been, is kind of how, is kind of how it changes Like what my, what my vision is, which, let me tell you, if I were to build a dune movie with the dune movies that have been made so far, the movie would just look completely, completely different, because it's it's crazy, um, oscar isaac has unfortunately kind of replaced that place for me, uh and yeah, but when, when I'm thinking about it in terms of being on Caledon, it's Juergen Prochnov.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So it's like so.
Speaker 2:I, I, I get these different, these different, uh, characters with different people, just kind of in my head as I'm reading people, just kind of in my head as I'm reading um, and I, I had this guy was not on my radar at all, I wasn't interested in aquaman or any of that stuff, but let me tell you what kind of of influence um, that, uh, that jason momoa had. As far as the duncan character goes, the thing that was most, I I think, the most depressing for me in the first, in the first dune movie in in the in the 1984 dune, is that duncan wasn't really a part of the movie.
Speaker 2:He was in there for two scenes yes uh, one of them was when he was getting carried away. You know, like it just the, the, they. They had missed some opportunities to really capitalize on that, on that, you know, that friendship between paul and duncan, the most that they did was was, you know, have a good smile at the end of of a conversation and then part ways or whatever. It really seemed lacking in that way. But the, the, the camaraderie between them, uh, in in the newest movie I view Duncan when he's interacting as as uh with with Paul.
Speaker 2:I see that's where I see Jason Momoa, um, but, yeah, I mean, as, as far as the cast on this movie goes, uh, I mean, I, I loved them all, I mean, and at the, at the initial viewing of this, it was all I had to go off of. Yeah, I mean, and at the initial viewing of this, it was all I had to go off of. Yeah, but later on, you know, when SyFy came out with their version, it changed a little bit about what's not so good about this movie, that the character that I, that that I like from the second one, from the sci-fi series, kind of comes up a little bit there. Now, what do you, what do you think about I've got on here that that you wanted to talk a little bit about David Lynch's attempt, the way that you personally interpreted, yeah, what David Lynch wanted to do with this movie.
Speaker 1:All right, I don't believe and I don't know. I have not researched this, I have not read anything about it, but what I saw, and how it struck me, is that David Lynch was not making a story of Dune. It wasn't Frank Herbert's, it was David Lynch's Dune and he was making art. I think he was trying to make an art piece, hearkening back to the old days of film, when movies were an art Right and had gotten away from it where it was just, you know, a lot of action and car chases and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Almost kind of like how people are viewing the Jodoworskis Dune. Kind of like how people are viewing the the jodoworski's dune.
Speaker 1:Like how, how that was more artistic than it was like supposed to be true to the book yeah and yeah, you know, uh, almost like an impressionistic painting, you know, uh, it isn't exactly what it represents, but if you stand back far enough, it kind of looks right you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So Frank Herbert's dune, the book was a skeleton for David Lynch making art and you can see that I mean when they, they love, he loved to do the flyover pictures of the sand dunes, yep, of the desert, okay, and there were colors and textures and different lighting and things like that. That just really enhanced that experience. The sets were just amazing in this movie.
Speaker 2:They had over 200 sets on 16 sound stages. Yeah To make this movie, yeah that is massive.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they were all incredible and, and things like that. This was supposed to be a piece of art, and if you went into the theater or if you watch the video with that in mind, it's a little easier to look at. Yeah, if you go into the movie thinking, oh, I'm going to see frank her's story, you are going to be disappointed.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and I mean that's, that's also, I mean that's kind of an important distinguish, uh distinguishing thing for a lot of movies, I think. Uh, I mean we're in the age of remakes and reboots.
Speaker 1:We have been for 30 years.
Speaker 2:Everybody's remaking and rebooting everything, and so I think that something that's really important to remember when going into these rebooted movies is that it's is that a lot of these directors and movie makers are not trying to recreate whatever it is that that we're seeing. They're just giving a different perspective. They're they're giving their own version of the story, yeah, um, which, which is why I always say they could come out with a new iteration of Dune every 10 years for the rest of my life. And I'm a fucking happy guy because, because I love seeing people's vision of this story and and David Lynch is no different for me, um, because I love seeing people's vision of this story, and David Lynch is no different for me.
Speaker 2:Now, I also know that the actress that played Lady Jessica, francesca Annis she broke the silence on some stuff with this movie. Oh, uh, yeah she. She came forward, uh, as early as the premiere for this movie and talked about how, how David Lynch's vision for this movie had been corrupted and destroyed by oh, what is his name? Dino De Laurentiis. Yeah, dino De Laurentiis. He destroyed everything that David Lynch was trying to do with this movie, and that's why David Lynch considers this to be his greatest failure is because he let somebody else skew all of the little minor details and everything that he wanted to do with this film and take complete control over, and it changed his whole vision of what he wanted as a film and that's ultimately why there was never a director's cut.
Speaker 1:There is actually a director's cut. There is actually a director's cut Mm-hmm Okay which is approximately four hours long.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, the four-hour long version and that had incorporated as much of the material that he was allowed to have. But there were so many things that he wasn't allowed to even film because, because De Laurentiis wouldn't allow it yeah, wouldn't procure the film for, or, you know, wouldn't allow him the time to travel for, or anything like that.
Speaker 1:Let's face it, who's a two hour movie? This, this dune dune 84, is about an hour or two. Excuse me, two and a quarter hours long, right, okay? So, uh, dealer rent has figured you're not going to get people to sit still for much longer than that. And he's probably right, because the I I did kind of watch and it was on YouTube. I don't know if you can get it anymore, but the entire Dune movie was on YouTube for a long time, Jeez, and you could watch the entire four hour thing and the thing. So a lot of the stuff that was missing out of the release, like like the battle with jamis before, yeah, before paul became was in there and wow, and paul having to take uh, jamis' wife as his wife, which caused a lot of complications with Chani yes, with Chani was included in there, wow.
Speaker 2:I had no idea.
Speaker 1:And you know Paul getting Jameis' coffee service designating him the head of Jamis's. I mean, all that stuff was in there and it was a lot more Frank Herbert than the release was because of that Because of those things. Yeah, yes, but I don't know if that full version is. Is um out there anymore?
Speaker 2:Um, it might still be on YouTube. I'll have to take a look and see. Uh, that'd be kind of interesting to to review.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it was uh yeah, and it's been a long, long time since I saw it. That's why I say it may or may not be there. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the, yeah, the man, the amount of work that went into making this movie. I'm going to take a moment here. We're going to jump down here a little bit on the list here. I want to go through some trivia real quick, just some interesting little bits about this movie. So this movie in its time cost an estimated $40 million to make. Its box office return in both U both US and Mexico was $31.5 million. It was $8.5 million shy of replacing its own budget, that kind of sucks, although it had like a $6 million opening weekend. That's pretty incredible. Featured Jurgen Prochnoff and Max von Sydow. This is not the last time that those two would be featured on screen in a movie together. They were later seen together in another movie with Sylvester Stallone playing the lure in judge dread in, uh, in the nineties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, let's see here, uh, another, another goofy little fun fact the tendons under the worms plating are reported to be condoms. They used they used prophylactics to make tendons on that part of the set. At some of the theatrical releases, at some of the theaters, information sheets explaining the world of Dune were passed out Wow, so that people could actually understand the vernacular and things like that. With with what was going to go on in the movie that they were about to watch, uh and uh. Francesca Annis also had, uh, had, something to say about that at the premiere. She said any movie that has to explain itself in detail at the beginning is in trouble. So, uh, she, uh, so she, you know, kind of making a little poke there at, uh, at irulan's little uh uh intro to the movie, yeah, um, but uh, for the uh, the desert scenes in this movie, 200 workers spent two months hand clearing three square miles of Mexican desert for on location filming.
Speaker 2:So they they hand cleared three miles, three square miles of of Mexican desert to make this movie. That is insane.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:How well do you suppose they got paid?
Speaker 1:Probably 50 cents a day.
Speaker 2:It kind of reminds me of some of the fun little set facts that you get from some things. Fun little uh set facts that you get from from some things. Um uh. At the end of last season when I would I did an episode on Halloween with Jason, we talked about how, uh, they had to pay people to throw leaves out in a California suburb so that it looked like it was in fall Cause. In Southern California there's no fall.
Speaker 2:No, no, there is no fall so, so they had to throw leaves out, and one of the people that was throwing leaves out on the streets to make it look like fall was, uh, uh, the guy who played freddy, uh, so, yeah, it's, it's. I love the little set details that they have for these kind of things. But, uh, yeah, um, despite being considered a financial flop, uh, it is David Lynch's movie to make the most money in its initial box office run, uh, and it's the only one to break into the top five, and it's opening weekend, uh, it was number two. So, yeah, some, just some fun facts about the movie, and then number two, and then it went kind of downhill from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, modern Dune fans just don't really care for it.
Speaker 1:Well, old Dune fans, most of them didn't care for it either.
Speaker 2:Didn't really care for it. Yeah, yeah, no, I, I really enjoyed it Um. I love the way that it just kind of, I got some trivia for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, the original Dune book was published in 1965 by the Chilton Company. The Chilton Company, if you've ever heard of the Chilton Manual, which is the thick, thick books with the model of car and all the parts, and every little part and every screw and bolt and nut in that car is in that book and it shows you where to go right. Yeah, and that's all the chilton company did until they published dune for frank herbert. Oh, wow, yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Uh, one thing I did know about about uh, his, his getting published is he worked at a newspaper before. Yeah, several newspapers. Yeah, he was a newspaper guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was from San Francisco and he often traveled to Mexico and back and forth, and he liked to walk along the beach and and he got a lot of the ideas for the dune, for the conservation parts of the book. He developed that. He developed that by while taking walks on the beach. Oh, that's cool yeah the uh.
Speaker 2:So tell me your thoughts on the soundtrack toto you know it was.
Speaker 1:it was electronic, it was futuristic and it fit. It worked and it didn't get in the way of the action unrolling on the screen. It fit. I thought it was extremely well done and it added a lot of appeal to the movie.
Speaker 2:I show Jen that Recording See. Yeah, as far as the music went like the recurring theme throughout the whole movie. The duh thing, I loved it when I was a kid and now when I watch it I'm just like again, again and again. Not that I appreciate it any less, it's just like it felt redundant being used for so much of the movie.
Speaker 1:Okay, I can see that. However, um, I don't know, it didn't it? It didn't affect me the same way, because I was not worried about picking it apart at all, right, and and it was just, it was there, I think, I think the, the, I think I I'm so used to watching so many movies that have leitmotifs where individual characters have their own themes Darth Vader with the Imperial March, luke Skywalker with the Force theme and Leia with her own theme.
Speaker 2:That kind of stuff is just kind of the way that they do movies now. And they, they had one leitmotif in 1984's Dune and that was Dune, the Dune theme kind of I think. I think that maybe, if I think the reason why it didn't bother me so much back then was because I wasn't, I wasn't so bombarded with with everybody having their own theme and everything that I watched, yeah, um, and, and now it's just now, it's, it just feels like it's so redundant, but, um, but I mean as, as even still yeahancy or not, I still fucking love it. You know, like when I, as much as I love the music from the newest Dune movies which is amazing phenomenal music, which is amazing phenomenal music when I make a joke or a Dune reference in regular life, I still go da, da, da, da, yeah, unless it's with my wife, then it's da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and then she gets it, jeez, but other than that she uh, but yeah, I mean the, the visual aesthetics in this movie, um, I mean the like, the special effects were simple but effective.
Speaker 2:Uh, I mean they were huge at the time. But you know, like the shields, like it's a little bit of a Tron throwback sort of thing, Uh, but but I mean that's what they had, yeah, and and they used it, and and and it worked.
Speaker 1:Well, even in what I mean by aesthetic is the, the beauty of the of the film, the beauty of the sets, the elaborate carvings and things, the desert scenes, the way the worm came towards the crawlers, and you know that looked pretty darn good.
Speaker 2:That was as far as that stuff goes. That was all perfect, that was perfection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now the worm itself looked like a tennis shoe. Okay, I can. Yeah, he was a little clunky, but it's kind of it's it's. You know, to take something that's in somebody's mind and make it visual is not an easy thing to do.
Speaker 2:Well, and not just visual but interactive. I mean it was, it had to be interactive for those actors. Yeah, so like, I mean that room that Paul was in with, uh, you know, and, and the opening up for the, for the hunter seeker to come out, and everything like that, like it was so well hidden and everything, it was completely believable that that was the room that he was in and that it was a real piece of work, you know, and, and not just a set. Um, when, when Juergen Prognoff is is walking around the castle, just before he meets up with Mapes, as she's, as she's been, you know, killed, uh, same thing, like you feel like you're in this castle, yes, um, and, and that it's all very real.
Speaker 2:Uh, and the desert, of course the desert was real, it felt real. Um, and, and you're right, the, the, the worm moving through the sand, Mm-hmm, that's about what I would imagine. Flying over a desert with a giant sandworm moving under it would look like I mean, they've done visuals with it in other movies since then that probably make more sense, but at the time, oh, like I don't know why, a worm would, would spark, spark lightning coming from it as it's moving through sand. Maybe just some hellacious, you know, uh, uh, static, you know static buildup from moving through sand, yeah, um, but uh they don't have dryer sheets in the future.
Speaker 2:They need some bounce. Damn it. Yeah, but yeah, it was good stuff. I really liked the way that this movie looked. The costumes oh man, as good as the costumes get in the newest movies, this movie still shows me what a still suit is supposed to look like. Like. When I imagine a still suit, it is the 1984 Dune that I imagine, Because it makes so much sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now the ornithopters in the newer movies Way cooler.
Speaker 2:Yes, because it actually has an optor feel to it. Yeah, like thopter, I'm, I'm not, I'm not picturing a, a what is it like a flying rhombus, yeah, sort of thing that they had going on, um, and and in the sci-fi one, I mean, it was like a, it was almost like a paper airplane or something. I don't know. It was weird, yeah, uh, but no, no, I don't know. I I really loved it. I liked the, the way that it was, that it was presented and and the look of things. The costumes were great, um, and I don't know, it was just easy. It's comfortable for me to sit in and believe it as an iteration of Dune, maybe not the most accurate to the book, but I don't require that in order for me to enjoy it. So there's that.
Speaker 2:Yep require that in order for me to enjoy it. So yeah, so there's that, yep, um, now let's talk about some of the not so good things. Um, and I'm I'm going to take the lead on on this one here, the the very first one that you put in. I am 100% with you on the Baron.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In this movie, the Baron Harkonnen was not, was, was not crazy. He wasn't a psychopath, he was a sociopath. Yeah, so he, he was very calculated, very, very uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. Calculated, that's really the best, the best word I can come up with. As far as the book is concerned, uh, and really every version, since this guy was just he, this guy belonged on a rock stage. Yeah, fiery red hair, lots of screaming and laughing. It I mean just wow, a little over the top. Yeah, um, what I mean? What else can you say about it?
Speaker 1:well, I, I, yeah, over the top and cartoonish, very cartoonish, yeah, that that laughing and and all that stuff. It was just. It was just, uh, yeah. And you know I was turned off by the Baron at the beginning of the movie and what, what? The first scene we seen the bear we see the Baron in. He's sitting in that chair and the doctor is going put the pick in there, pete and turn it around really neat, right. And then he's oh, baron, your diseases are loved to me and he's got all this stuff on. It's like yeah, that was gross. Now I, if I'm going to guess and say that's where Jen was out.
Speaker 2:That was definitely a part where she wasn't really happy watching. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see the premise for the Dune. You know he was supposed to be evil because of what his family has gone through over through history. But he, but this disease thing and all this other stuff didn't exist in the book, right? I mean, do you do you know? Don't tell anybody. But but do you know why he was so overweight? Did you read the books?
Speaker 2:I do know why.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:From, and that's books that came later. Actually, they're pretty recent books, aren't they?
Speaker 1:I don't. Did they explain it? I don't remember exactly what series it's in, but let's just say that he was cursed because, before what he did to get cursed, he was a very handsome, very well you know, and he was cursed by this person that he wronged. Sorry, I'm not going to tell you the details. Y'all are going to have to read the books.
Speaker 2:And that's probably going to be the strongest sentiment at the end of at the end of this episode that my dad is going to give you all is that you just need to go read the books because, uh, cause, yeah, it's good stuff, a lot of it's a really good read Now, uh, you also had mentioned Dr Yui.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What, uh, what? What do you think was kind of the shortcoming with doc Dr Yui?
Speaker 1:Okay, in and see now I'm. Now I'm doing, I'm doing what I, what I shouldn't do. I'm thinking about the book and then I'm projecting into the movie when I shouldn't do that. I saw the movie first. Uh, I like Dane Stockwell. However, after I read the book there, it was a lot more to Dr Yui than being a traitor Mm-hmm who was trying to be reunited with his wife who were being held by the Harkonnens Okay. In this movie they're not Harkonnens, they're Harkonnens, they're Harkonnens Okay, which they're not Harkonnens, they're Harkonnens, they're Harkonnens, okay, which is the way I say it now.
Speaker 2:Anyway, right, but anyway, dr Yui was a much deeper character and there was a lot more to him and the movie just kind of turned him into just a simple traitor and I thought that was kind of sad Now, something that I don't know, I haven't really been terribly good at, but when coming into this episode, two of the things that I was going to try to avoid doing was spending too much time comparing this movie to the book. Doing was spending too much time comparing this movie to the book, and also I wanted to avoid spending too much time comparing this movie to other movies. Yeah, but I think when comparing the characters, it's it's a little different. Dr yui, for for this movie, was just way underdone. Yeah, they, they, they. They didn't bake him long enough and they just it was very surfacy, very uh. There there wasn't enough depth to this character.
Speaker 2:He had a great star and so underused him and they didn't utilize his talent. And then in in the sci-fi miniseries, they overdid it. Yes, I mean, they had him weepy and all of this other stuff like really confiding in Lady Jessica about his wife and all this other stuff, and they overdid it. And the newest one I feel like it was perfect Dr UA in in the newest movie I think they wrote perfectly Um that, that stoic, souk conditioning, yeah, um, you know, but also with that, that fiery underpassion for his wife and everything like that. Like, I feel like they did a really great job balancing the too much, too little that the first two movies got.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know it's hard not to compare.
Speaker 2:But sometimes you just gotta.
Speaker 1:A lot of my impressions about certain things were formed after I'd read the book, Right, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Now I I kind of flip flap on this one. How do you feel about the weirding modules?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, they were weird, all right, um, uh, I don't. I I cannot imagine what those were about unless I. To me they're deus ex machina yeah right now.
Speaker 1:That was. That was when I saw the movie and I hadn't read the book. I felt that way about him. I mean it's like you know, yeah, you can use sound as a weapon. I mean, we're doing it now, right, but to have this portable thing hanging around your neck, you know, and then blow stuff up, e-job, yeah, my name is a killing word. Yeah, hanging around your neck, you know, and then blow stuff up. Yee-haw yeah.
Speaker 2:My name is a killing word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just I felt like it was kind of a shortcut, yeah, To make things easier to advance the story maybe faster, maybe.
Speaker 2:Also, each time I read the book, I always felt that the weirding was. It always felt much more like a martial art to me, yeah, and so it was like, but I mean not not just a martial art, like I mean there was, there was some mind aspect to it and stuff like that. But it was like uh, but, but it just felt like, you know, like wing chun or something, you know like uh kung fu, but when, when you, when you take the weirding modules, it takes away from that discipline that the weirding required. Yeah, the thing that that Paul was able to give to the Fremen you know to, to make them even more effective than they already were, and and and all this other stuff. I think that I think that a lot of it might've also had to do with the difference between acting now and acting then.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Back then, actors were actors. Now actors are actors and when they're playing a part that requires them to learn kung fu, they fucking learn kung fu, like it's just. That's just the way that it is. Yeah, so you know how it works in hollywood.
Speaker 1:You hire a coach if you want. If you're playing an opera singer, you hire a coach and in 45 minutes you're an opera singer.
Speaker 2:Right, right, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:If you're doing a sword fight, you hire a sword coach and in 45 minutes you are an expert sword fighter. At least you look like it, right. You know what they haven't figured out how to get people that are playing musical instruments to look realistic.
Speaker 2:To look like they're actually playing like musical instruments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is one time where it really does, where it fooled me, and that is in Star Trek Voyager, when Harry Kim plays the clarinet. I mean it looks like he is playing the freaking clarinet.
Speaker 2:Now you've gone and met.
Speaker 1:Garrett Wang right. I unfortunately have not.
Speaker 2:Okay, I thought maybe you had at a con or something I need to. Maybe I'll go to Denver Con because he's pretty regularly at Denver Pop Culture Con. If I can get out there again, I might ask him if he knows how to play any of that, because no, he doesn't. He doesn't, he doesn't, he does not. That's crazy, because it looks like he is. It's so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he had a coach and his coach was good. I mean made him learn. But this is not the Star Trek Voyager. Harry Kim plays the clarinet podcast. This is the movie RX podcast. We're talking about Dune Right.
Speaker 2:That's okay. I'm all about getting off topic, oh okay. It doesn't bug me any, but I think that that's probably a big part of it is that at that time they weren't going to teach somebody, you know, wing Chun. They weren't going to teach somebody Kung Fu. They weren't going to teach somebody Toshindo.
Speaker 1:They needed to have something, okay, right, other than hand-to-hand combat. All right Now, if you recall, if you fire a laser at a personal shield the Hertzman effect. The Holtzman effect. Yes, you get a nuclear explosion, nuclear-level explosion.
Speaker 2:At both ends. Yeah, at the ends. Yeah, at the laser and at the shield.
Speaker 1:So you got to do something for those people to be able to shoot from the top of sandworms as they're coming through the shield wall, right, and you know, the Sardaukar are wearing personal shields, right, okay, right, okay. So you, you gotta do something to to make the war scene, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that works Now, like we've kind of been making some, some small comparisons to the book and everything in this movie, like in the long run. All comparisons to the book and everything in this movie, like in the long run, um, what, what would be, what would be probably the biggest, the biggest difference that you would say between between the books in this one, that that that's almost, that's almost just wrong, I think. What?
Speaker 1:David Lynch tried to do in making in. What David Lynch tried to do in making in, in attempting to make art, was also too wide of a focus, trying to get too much in the movie, you know, and in the book we're talking about a 900 pagepage book, okay, in three different parts. And you bet, frank Herbert explains Chome, he explains the Landsrat, he explains the Spice, he explains all these things. You ain't going to compress 900 pages of story into a two movie or even a four hour movie, you know.
Speaker 2:So well, I mean, look at, look at what they did with Dune part one and two, Like I mean they still had to cut a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1:And I am and see, and that's that's where also, what I had in mind with comparing to the movies. The Villeneuve movies are focused on Paul's story, right, and we're not worried about the navigators and what they look like and how they work, and we're not worried about Ix or Thylakzu and we're not worried about how you get thylakzu and we're not worried about how you get from one place to another, you just do okay. So, because it's about more deep, yes, and that is why the new dune movies are so much more successful than, uh, the sci-fi series, which I also enjoyed thoroughly, and and the 84 movie.
Speaker 2:I think the focus was too wide yeah, well, and and I mean any, any time you get into any any sort of uh, any sort of like a, a, when you're, when you're making any movie from a book, you're you're going to have to cut corners. Um, I mean, sometimes they do a really good job. Um, like one one that I really like to point out is is Harry Potter. Harry Potter did a great job, uh, sticking pretty pretty true to the books uh, while making their movies. But, um, but, only people who read the books get annoyed about the things that weren't in the movies. Things like, uh, there was a poltergeist that was funnier in hell named Peeves, uh in in the books that didn't didn't even make a cameo in the in the movies.
Speaker 2:Um, the uh, sometimes you have to change, change like complete, like surface details of of something really big in order to make something work. Like, uh, I am legend, yeah, the original roger matheson, or uh, uh, what, what was his first name? I don't remember. Remember the Matheson novel. It started, or it was more vampires than it was, zombies, you know, and stuff like that. So, like, sometimes you just have to change things in order to make them work on screen.
Speaker 1:Of course, sometimes you can change it so much that it's horrible. In the case of Richard Matheson's story, they've made three movies. Okay, the first one was Vincent Price, the second one was called the Omega man.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was horrible, it bad, it was bad, absolutely horrible. And then there was the I am legend um the will smith version, which, yeah, it was different, but I liked it that's.
Speaker 2:That's a really big one that I that I like to use as an argument that just because it's not the same doesn't mean that it can't be good too.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, and I'm sure there's a lot of people that are going to start rolling their eyes, but I like Will Smith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, yeah, yeah, and I'm. I'm sorry, I, I yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry I can't. We need to get out of this whole of, you know, canceling people for good because of something they've done. Yes, I know Because we're not doing it everywhere. There's some people that should get canceled, that don't, yeah. So we're not going to get into that too much this time around, because I'm saving that for another podcast.
Speaker 1:Will Smith is an actor with a lot of range and I think he is totally underappreciated for his level of ability as an actor, for his talent. I'm going to go. I'm going to go on record with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I agree, I completely agree. He will be, uh, he will be considered one of our, one of, uh, one of my generation's greats Now, I guess maybe Jenny Jamie's generation, um, either one. But yeah, uh, one of my generation's greats, now, I guess, maybe Jenny Jamie's generation, um, either one. But yeah, uh, but yeah, so I don't know. I think I think that this movie, this movie, did a really good thing for me as far as opening my mind, uh, politically, um, the the thing, the one thing that Frank Herbert I I don't remember where I read it, but the one thing that I remember Frank Herbert said about this movie was that what missed the mark was that Paul was a man playing a god, not that he was a god that could make it rain and the, and. And the reason I think that that's important is because the, uh, the people, the people in leadership, a lot of the time are not who they represent themselves to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and sometimes it's important for us to to keep an eye on those things and keep a lot of that stuff in, in, in, in mind while we're, while we're picking our leadership in various different ways. Yeah, um, and yeah, so the I mean that's, that's because of that that's been a pretty big influence on on the way that I do things, uh, politically, uh, and and also in in small groups, when picking leadership for various different things as well.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, um, well, this movie, first and foremost, and and I liked it. There were times when I didn't like it, and there were, you know, and then you think about things, but the one thing that this movie did for me, above all, is it made me want to go and and read the book Right, which led to some really cool things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and some really good storytelling. Yeah, wow, the story, the world that is Dune. I mean we can even nitpick at some of the books too, because God, emperor of Dune is Dear God, emperor of Dune.
Speaker 1:Okay okay, okay, that's a hard book to read Time out, time out. Okay, yes, it is a hard book to read. It reads like a sociology textbook. It is so hard. Now, you mentioned earlier I was on the Dune Saga podcast and we did we did an interview with Brian Herbert, yeah, and we brought this very thing up the the, the um book you just mentioned God, emperor of Dune. Frank Herbert was writing that book and at the same time, his wife was dying, jeez, yeah oh man, yeah, so so that, yeah, that kind of changes perspective on it a little bit yeah, so, um, you know that's that's kind of that's kind of what what came about, and you know, you know it's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the book is is horribly hard to read, If you like. If you like Duncan, he's in there a lot.
Speaker 2:Right. Right, but not for long Nope, as he never is. I mean, they have a spoiler alert. They cloned Duncan lots of times, so yeah, all right. Well, I guess, uh, I guess, uh, uh, I don't know, I don't really know that we have a whole hell of a lot more to say. We're we're on it a little over an hour now, so, uh, I guess I guess we'll just go ahead and call it good. You want to go ahead and plug your shows?
Speaker 1:and projects. Okay, I sure will. So currently I'm on a podcast with two friends, raul Wybera and JP Harvey. One of them is in St Louis, the other one is in Las Vegas and I'm here in the middle of Nebraska. We get together once a month and we talk about David Weber's Honor Harrington books and the name of that podcast is Honorverse. Today we release once a month, we record once a month and we've had quite a good listenership on that one. Prior to that I was on a podcast with the same gentleman and it was the Babylon Project podcast. We talked about Babylon 5, all the TV shows, all the movies and the books, reviews for that on there, the Orbital Sword podcast. That was with a gentleman named David Moulton and another, scott Herzog, who you may recognize from the Sci-Fi Diner. We were doing sci-fi and fantasy books. We did quite a few books, but we kind of we kind of wound up with pod fade on that. You know what pod fade is.
Speaker 2:No, it feels like it should feel, like a word.
Speaker 1:When your podcast just kind of drops over the horizon and doesn't and just stops.
Speaker 2:Okay, I get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, people's lives change yes, yes, they do yeah and and and that's kind of what happened to the orbital orbital sword and prior to that. The first big podcast I was on was the dune saga podcast and that was also with David and Scott, and we did the books. We talked about most of the movies, including 84 Dune Well, 84 Dune and the sci-fi thing. Of course, we never came back to it, so we're missing a few of the newer books and the newest movies. But we talk about all the other books and the unique part of it is not only that, we do have that interview with Brian Herbert. That's cool.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what Brian Herbert is a nice guy, he is and and he's really smart. So, uh, it was, it was a great interview and um, yeah, and we and we took these books not in publication order, but we took them in chronological order. Nice, so we started way back with the beginning of the Dune universe, with the Butlerian Jihad, and then you read them, because they're not released in chronological order, but you can go online and you can type in Dune chronological order and you'll get a list of the books in the order to read them. If you want a continuous story and I personally I think that's the only way to do it- yeah, I read the Frank Herbert books in order of release and then read.
Speaker 2:Probably well, I read up through the Jihad, like through the end of that Vori and Atreides and what was the Harkonnen name? I don't remember his name. Anyway, yeah, I read up through those. I didn't get through any of the house books or anything but yeah, well, I've read them all and and I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1:They are all great. It's awesome, every every darn one of them, but it took me a long time to read the other ones. It's because a certain certain person told me not to. It's because a certain certain person told me not to said they weren't worth reading.
Speaker 2:I didn't care for him. I really didn't, and I think most of it was because I was. I was looking for for frank herbert's voice. Yeah, and since I've gotten older I've appreciated the brian, her, kevin J Anderson ones more. It's kind of that whole. Don't go into a reboot, expecting the original thing, like since I've kind of gotten into that mind frame.
Speaker 1:I can read Dune that isn't written by Frank Herbert and appreciate it more. You are in my mind. It's like yes, I agree, frank. Uh, brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's books do not sound like Frank Herbert wrote them, because Frank Herbert didn't write them. Didn't write them, yeah, and nobody can write like Frank Herbert does. You don't know, nobody's going to write like him, because Frank Herbert was Frank Herbert.
Speaker 2:Yep. You know, Yep, that's what Victor Wooten says. Yeah, that you have your own fingerprint.
Speaker 1:You are being unrealistic if you expect one author to follow on and be exactly like the next one. Right, that's not fair.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, luckily, now that I'm 40, I'm a little bit wiser to it, you yeah.
Speaker 1:But that's okay because then I got to read them really fresh and do the Dune Saga podcast with those guys.
Speaker 2:That was a good podcast. Yeah, for all of my listeners. If you're into Dune, definitely check out Dune Saga podcast. I listened to that one for a very long time until my life got too busy not to. That was life as a. What was it? I was working at the newspaper at the time. Yeah, I was trying to become my own writer.
Speaker 1:You do great.
Speaker 2:Alrighty. Well, thank you very much, dad, for coming on. It was cool having you on finally. Yeah, especially with a movie that kind of meant so much to both of us. Yeah, this is one of those things that I always kind of felt like we were able to really connect on at several instances in our life.
Speaker 1:Well, you know how many times I've watched that movie? Yeah, right, and you were usually somewhere nearby Right. Yep, also were usually somewhere nearby Right.
Speaker 2:Yep Also Loved it. Yeah, now you know these movies are not intended to treat, cure or prevent any disease. See ya Outro Music.