Beyond the Story: How to Witness, Release & Awaken

What if true peace didn’t come from figuring life out, but from letting go of the need to?

In this soulful episode, host Sherisse Alexander is joined by spiritual teacher and guide Indra Rinsler, a lifelong seeker who blends Vedic Astrology, the Enneagram, and presence-based awareness to support people in awakening to who they really are.

Together, they explore:
 ✨ What it means to live without identity
 ✨ Why Saturn cycles can feel like spiritual bootcamp
 ✨ The power of objectivity: being in the moment, but not of it
✨ How Vedic Astrology and the Enneagram illuminate your blind spots
✨ What karma really is (and what it isn’t)
✨ The importance of witnessing your triggers instead of becoming them

If you’ve ever felt stuck, spiritually curious, or like there must be something more to life—this conversation will affirm what your soul already knows.

🎁 BONUS: Indra is offering free Vedic astrology charts and Enneagram type tests to listeners! Details below.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Spiritual Awakening
• 2:31 The Journey of Self-Discovery
• 5:10 Understanding Surrender and Letting Go
• 7:38 The Role of Astrology in Personal Growth
• 10:10 The Concept of Attachment and Desire
• 12:40 The Process of Objectivity in Relationships
• 15:14 Vedic Astrology Explained
• 17:46 Retrogrades and Their Impact
• 29:55 Understanding Astrology: A Personal Journey
• 34:00 The Enneagram and Astrology: A Synergistic Approach
• 37:03 Finding Your Path: Ideal Clients and Their Needs
• 38:51 Karma: Understanding Its Nature and Implications
• 50:26 Services Offered: Navigating Through Astrology and Counseling

Transcript

Sherisse Alexander (00:01)
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are when you are watching this. My name is Sherisse Alexander, your host of Your Collective. Today, my guest is Indra Rinzler. Did I say your name right, Indra? Your last name? Beautiful. Pardon me.

Indra (00:15)
Yes, yes you did. Yeah, very good. Both sides.

Both sides of the name.

Sherisse Alexander (00:22)
Yay.

I've definitely talked about not wanting to butcher people's names. So I do practice beforehand to make sure that I get it right. But Indra is a lifelong spiritual seeker, teacher and guide who helps people awaken to their true nature through unique modalities such as astrology. Okay, is this right? If I say it, it Enneagram? Enneagram? Okay.

Indra (00:45)
Very good.

Sherisse Alexander (00:47)
of personality and present moment awareness. He's been involved in spiritual practices for over 50 years and has traveled the world extensively, both seeking wisdom and sharing it. So I won't say anything more. I will turn it over to you, Indra, to tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you do and how you help people awaken to their true potential. Welcome.

Indra (01:11)
Welcome, it's not anything that I do and it's not me doing it. So that's the first place to start. Okay. If anything, I like to say that I tapped into something that is already there. It's available for everybody. It's a river of peace. It's a river of wisdom. It's existence itself. And by opening up and letting go of personal needs and stories.

Sherisse Alexander (01:31)
Mm-hmm.

Indra (01:39)
and opening up, then it just appeared. Then all of a sudden I found myself in the middle of the river. Effortlessly. And the more that I fight it...

Sherisse Alexander (01:47)
Ha ha.

So.

Indra (01:53)
If we fight it, then we don't just effortlessly get to the middle of the river. Then we can keep being on the edge saying, look, I'm in the river, even though I'm completely dry.

Sherisse Alexander (02:04)
And so for you, I took a look at your website and I understand what you're saying. It's there for all of us to tap into and access and how we get to that could look different for everybody or will look different for everybody. For you, you've been doing this work for a really long time. So when you started, did you get introduced to it, I think is the question that I'm really asking. When did you realize that

Indra (02:09)
you

Sherisse Alexander (02:27)
this was there and how did you begin to tap into it? And what is the this that we're talking about?

Indra (02:31)
Well, didn't. I didn't.

Yeah, I didn't realize it. Whatever it is, I didn't realize it for 40 years, 45 years, 30 years, whatever it was. It's it's different levels of understanding. It's it's it started being wanting to be happy, wanting to find peace, wanting to love myself. And.

And it can exist on that level for two decades. Easy.

It's so amazing that we can talk about a subject and hear a lecture about a subject and there being so many levels to the understanding. It's like, it's like.

It's almost like the lecture was in Hebrew or Greek or Japanese as much as we actually understood about what did Jesus say, not to pick on Jesus, but what did Jesus really, what was he really saying rather than how we interpret it? Or what is Thich Nhat Hanh or Dalai Lama really saying in Ram Dass? What was he really saying underneath the words that we heard? And the reality of it is that we can't get it all.

Possibly at any point there's there's deeper meanings than they intend that they don't get That they're sharing not knowing that they're under that they're sharing it. So so I Think it was it was So I had an astrologer I don't know if I mentioned this to you before but I had an astrological event yesterday

that in Vedic astrology, which I do, we have planetary periods. have the Mahadasas, the great periods, when a planet, each of the nine planets in a 120 year cycle is the most important planet in our life. It has a front center stage. And in a 36 year frame,

you have 19 years of Saturn and you have 17 years of Mercury and yesterday was my birthday, my planet birthday, my one day in 36 years that I changed cycles. so this 19 years of Saturn, what I'm getting to is it's 19 years of Saturn really kicked my butt. it basically said, who the hell do you think you are? And who I...

Sherisse Alexander (04:39)
you

Hmm.

Indra (04:54)
come out of it is that I am, that I have no need to answer the question and that there is no identity with Indra anymore, that that doesn't really work, that there's an identity with the higher self which is connected to everything that isn't, so what I do or don't do or what comes through me isn't from me, it isn't me. It's...

Sherisse Alexander (05:10)
Hmm.

Indra (05:21)
its spirit, its existence, its consciousness.

that I'm just, I'm gonna use the term, don't know, this word borrowing came up to, that I'm just, I'm making, I'm applying it. It looks like I'm applying it to me, it's being applied to me, but it has nothing to do with me, it's just through me. I like to say that when the readings were from me, they weren't anywhere near as good as through me. And.

Sherisse Alexander (05:44)
Hmm.

No place finish.

Indra (05:47)
I'm not sure that I didn't, you know, I'm just going on. your question is, you know, the process. So what is the question? The question is, is...

I have no idea about any of it and it's wonderful. Yeah. There's no victory and there's no losing. There's just being and in that and everything is complete.

Sherisse Alexander (06:03)
What a great place to be. I don't know that that would.

It just exactly. Yeah.

And I what I was going to say is like, I don't know that the audience would necessarily find the same joy and glee in what you just said. But I understood what you just said, because it's like a complete surrender to not necessarily having because what did you say you said there's your higher self identity, which is connected to all that is and all that ever will be. But there's not really Indra the

Indra (06:21)
You

Sherisse Alexander (06:40)
the individual. And so that's actually really freeing if you can actually look at it like that and understand that concept.

Indra (06:48)
Yes, and people who, as I said, 19 years in Saturn, I really, really got down to it. One time I came back from India one year with hepatitis A. And hepatitis A is really an interesting illness because there's absolutely nothing to do, there's nothing to take, you just have to wait it out and you have absolutely no energy. And I was on a call

with a teacher who was through channeling and they said, you need to surrender. And I'm sitting there thinking, my God, I can hardly sit up. I can barely put two words together. And they're telling me I need to surrender. And the fact was that they were right. And I was in this totally hopeless position.

And we get put into these positions for our own good. It's not happening to us. It's happening for us. And so the reality of it is what was still there, what was still there was the pissed offness that I hadn't surrendered. And so that's what I needed to surrender.

Sherisse Alexander (07:54)
It was my next question. I'm like what what else was

there?

Indra (08:00)
Yeah, well,

the, you know, at the highest levels, there's an attachment, I've read about this, the attachment to life at the highest, highest levels that there's always a surrender. As you keep going up and up, there are continual things to let go of and in the body that the last is the letting go of the need for living, the need for the...

the body.

Sherisse Alexander (08:23)
think I understand that.

You know, Indra, I know you've been doing this for a really long time, but I'm going to bring it back real, real simple and real basic because I'm a beginner. So it's maybe very likely everyone else who might be watching or listening because you you talked about Saturn and I'm assuming you're talking about a cycle or retrograde, not necessarily a retrograde. OK.

Indra (08:28)
Ha ha ha.

No, it's a mahadasha. It has to do

with that it's based on your position of your moon at birth and you plug into a system, a wheel that's continually turning and where you, I jumped in at two years to go in 20 years of Venus. And so at my age, I came into Saturn period in my late 50s, 19 years, and everybody has it, but everybody has it at a different age.

Sherisse Alexander (09:04)
Mm-hmm.

Indra (09:10)
Well, everybody theoretically can have it, in a 120-year cycle, if you live 85 years, you may completely miss it.

Sherisse Alexander (09:18)
Hmm.

Indra (09:20)
But this particular one was just a complete surrendering of everything that's blocking existence, that's blocking the higher wisdom, that's blocking the sense of peace and the realization that I didn't really need anything, that there was nothing to attain, that there is self-expression.

self-express not for the strokes of it but just to self-express

And I found out that was enough. reminds me of in the moment, it reminds me when I became a vegetarian 55 years ago, I took out the meat and found out that I liked the burger just as well without the burger. That you had the bread and you had the lettuce and you had the special sauce and that was kind of it. And it didn't really need to be more.

Sherisse Alexander (09:59)
Mmm the bun

Yeah.

Indra (10:11)
So I found that being nothing was really good. That it takes care of all problems. It can take care of all problems. And it's so empty and joyous all the time. I don't...

You know, I may have a little bit of a, you know, my plane is late, my taxi is late, you know, I'm gonna have a little bit of oomph for a few minutes, but then I kind of come back into a place of...

a piece where everything is as it is and I don't need it to be any different.

Sherisse Alexander (10:47)
Mm-hmm.

And I think that often people get really caught up in this pursuit. I've been having a lot of conversations about this just personally. And so when I'm witnessing it very objectively, necessarily, and I'm the first to say I'm also engaged in the pursuit and trying to figure my way out of it. But, you know, we always think that we want more to achieve.

I don't know that there's anything wrong with wanting more, but I'm really talking about from a like a physical acquisition kind of standpoint and that the trappings of that keep you constantly on this hamster wheel and just going and going and going. And as you so rightfully or so many people can actually witness, that doesn't necessarily bring about peace and happiness. And so I think I understand very fully what you're talking about. And I think it has a lot to do with, you when we talk about

in, Buddhism, when we talk about the, the attachment, right? The desire to be like attachment to outcomes, attachment to things, people, all these other kinds of things. That's really what you're talking about. Right. And in terms of surrendering the need to have this, any type of attachment really in your life. And that's why I said from the very beginning, it actually sounds very freeing because then it's just like, as you said, I can just be. And I think that ultimately the question that people might have is like, well,

How is that fulfilling? sounds super lonely and like there's nothing around you, but from what you're saying, it's actually not. It frees you in so many ways. You liberate yourself ultimately.

Indra (12:20)
Yes, because the other side of it is that you're continually wanting more. And you're in the story of continually wanting more, that it's never enough. And that is, that's hell. That's hell on earth. And I think, yeah, always wanting more is because you're never satisfied.

Sherisse Alexander (12:26)
Mm-hmm.

always wanting more.

Is it a tweaking of what that means though? Because I think of, for me, the always wanting more is, for me, more knowledge, more information, more understanding of truly what self is. And I don't think that's what you're referring to, or are you?

Indra (12:57)
All of it, because the wanting puts out a message to the universe that I don't have.

Sherisse Alexander (12:58)
Hmm.

Mmm good point true lack. Yep

Indra (13:06)
Okay, and I was,

but before you, I said something and then you started talking and you actually picked up on exactly what I was gonna say, is that, what's the point of this? The point of this I think is, even if you're a beginner, you call yourself a beginner, whatever, even if you're a beginner, even if one is a beginner, I'm not talking to you specifically, the thing is is that,

You need to have these goals in front of you, to become more certified, to become a practitioner, to have a studio you work out of, or to have a podcast that you do. It's wonderful to have these goals. And that's appropriate.

as we're developing and growing. But ultimately, we're gonna let go of all of that, because we're gonna let go of the body, because we're not going to, it isn't death and taxes, you know? So, I'm not trying to jump you ahead, enjoy all of your attaining and achieving.

and I'm not talking to you specifically. But the reality of it is that what I can share from my side is, you know, when you let go of all of it and you don't really need to know why and everything is enough as it is, it's really nice. It's having the cake and not the calories.

Sherisse Alexander (14:33)
Interestingly enough, I think that I understand what you're saying. I just want to say it one more time though. said when you can, so enjoy the journey of the attaining. But when you get to the place where you can let go of it, everything, including the need to know why, that it's really, really joyful because you can have the cake so you can enjoy the experience.

Indra (14:36)
You

Sherisse Alexander (14:58)
Like without all the trappings of having like the energy of having to, needing to, should do all that stuff. You can just be. Which is really, really, yeah.

Indra (15:08)
Absolutely, yeah,

very good. And it's the trappings that they don't seem like trappings, but in your failed relationships and in your arguing with your kids and in your being, loving your job and hating your boss or don't liking your coworkers or don't want to stand around and drink coffee together, whatever it is, those are the trappings. And the trappings are where the mind starts.

Sherisse Alexander (15:14)
there.

Mm-hmm.

Indra (15:33)
nitpicking and the mind starts finding fault and the mind starts needing to be secure and then mind starts look how good I am. Can't you see that I'm desirable? You know, or whatever, whatever it is and to which isn't to say that I never feel any of that, but it doesn't sit very long because it automatically feels right off.

Sherisse Alexander (15:48)
Yeah.

Indra (15:58)
It just doesn't feel right. It feels like I'm cold. Maybe I need to put on more clothes.

Sherisse Alexander (16:06)
So it's an awareness then. It's like, ⁓ this doesn't feel right. Yeah.

Indra (16:08)
Yes, it's an awareness. And

having the awareness, I was telling this client yesterday, and I don't remember whether I told her or not, but that you can be in the, this is what I'm saying, is you can be in the stories and still have objectivity separate from them. That those are, they may.

Sherisse Alexander (16:26)
Yes.

Indra (16:29)
They may seem mutually exclusive and they may be mutually and they are mutually exclusive when you're at a level. But I was trying to get her to see and she was seeing that her next steps are to be aware of the energies that make her off center. But

but you can be in them and release them at the same time.

Sherisse Alexander (16:56)
There's a, it reminds me of something that a coach of mine says, and I personally found it extremely helpful. At first it was tricky, but I think what you're talking, so what she would say was, be the spectator of your own movie. Don't be on the stage, witness the stage. And I think that's really what you're talking about. So you can be in it.

being a part of it exactly, exactly. And it really allows you to like, I keep using the word witness because that's what I would visualize in my mind as soon as she said it. I'm like, okay, wait a minute, you want me to sit in the audience and watch what's going on? She's like, exactly. I want you to sit in the audience of the theater and watch what's going on, but don't participate. Like you're there, but you're not there. And it really just allowed me to step out of participating, like getting drawn into the drama of whatever was going on.

Indra (17:17)
in it but not of it.

Yes, I call it objectivity. Rather than witness, I like to think of it as an objectivity that you can have an awareness, an objectivity around your actions or what you're feeling, but you don't have to be, you can be in it but not of it. And that's essential.

Sherisse Alexander (18:00)
Yes. What a great way to put it.

Yep. It really is. And I find that the more that I talk to people and when I and that's why I said it, I personally found it very tricky at first because she would keep saying it right? Like, be the spectator and I think it took me it took me a little while. And it's not perfection. At least not yet. Maybe I'll get there. Maybe I won't. But I definitely once I

Indra (18:26)
Hehehe.

Sherisse Alexander (18:28)
found the awareness and I could recognize when it was coming up, like when I was being pulled into it. Then I can be like, okay, wait a minute. No, that's not what I want to be objective in this.

Indra (18:40)
So

the process of it, the reason it's difficult, it does take a while and it can take years and that's okay. The reason it takes so long is because it's easy for you to realize when you get upset reading the newspaper.

Sherisse Alexander (18:46)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Indra (18:55)
Okay, and

it's easy for you to realize when you and I'm not picking on this, but when you hear news and then okay, then you get off center, you can realize that pretty quickly. But now how about with your mate? How about with your kids? There are so many levels. There's so many ways that we get triggered and we have to we have to detach every one of those ways. And some of them are very tight. Some of them are are

Sherisse Alexander (19:04)
Yes.

Indra (19:22)
I don't really care and you you want that garbage in the in the garage take it I don't need it you see something you like take it I don't care but there are things that are closer to you there are things that are on your your dressing table that those those you don't want to give away so quite so so easily and so we have to we have to realize all of the different aspects that get triggered

Sherisse Alexander (19:31)
Mm-hmm.

Indra (19:45)
that have potential to be triggered and we have to cut each one of those. And some of them are very tied into our esteem and to our security and those are the last to go. But it's actually the same, but it takes a while to get to those and that's part of the process. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just the way that it is that we have to understand it on the deepest of levels that we can't.

Sherisse Alexander (20:00)
Yes.

Indra (20:11)
Yeah, we just aren't really able to see. It takes a maturity and a working with these ideas quite a while in order to understand it on the deepest of levels.

Sherisse Alexander (20:22)
Yeah, and you know, I think I had a guest last week and it ties back to even something that you had said the first time we chatted. And the question I think I posed just in conversation was about, you know, I think I'd made a comment. It wasn't really a question about being on a spiritual journey. And you had said, well, we're all in a spiritual journey. It's whether or not you are awake or not on that journey.

And I think the reason why I bring it up is because the guest that I had on Friday, what she was talking about was like this awareness and understanding that it's not an overnight process. You're constantly going to revisit it. It's going to feel very cyclical within that because she was talking about the peeling back of layers because and to your point about the triggers, right? I think the first thing is, is once you're aware and make the choice that you want to be objective in it.

it's gonna continue to happen. And I think I had a scenario maybe a week or two ago where something went from zero to 103 seconds flat, don't even know how it happened. And then as I was trying to work through it in conversation with the person, I'm talking through it and I'm saying to them like, I'm gonna talk through this because I need to understand why this trigger happened. So you can participate, not participate, doesn't matter to me, but I need to talk through it. And so I did.

And then I even went back and said, I'm like, okay, I think the reason you were triggered is because of and but I found it very, very useful because whether or not the person agreed, I think I was able to come to the awareness of what my participation was in rubbing on whatever wounds or triggers so that I had an awareness of like, so I can also adjust and be like, okay, maybe next time, I can still do the same thing. But I can phrase it like this, I can

show up a little differently so that maybe I can actually get to the root of what it was that I was looking for. So my point in all of that was to say, we also have to come at this with the awareness that we're gonna go through a little bit of this spiral and not spiral in a bad way, but spiral that we might revisit certain wounds over and over and over again, as we go through the different layers of healing it ultimately so that we can eventually become untriggerable or unflappable.

to ultimately being very peaceful like Indra.

Indra (22:36)
Yeah. So what comes up when you say that is this word, and I don't know if I mentioned this word too before, it's arrogance. 35 is the height of arrogance, and arrogance is that we know better. And while we need a little bit of arrogance, otherwise we can't stay in the body. We need to have a little bit of arrogance in order to stay in the body to be...

Sherisse Alexander (22:45)
Yup.

Mm.

Indra (23:00)
I want to be here and you know it's not a don't F with me but it's just a it's just a

It's just a little bit of attachment. That's the arrogance on the deepest and deepest of levels. But on the simplest of levels, it's the arrogance is that I know better. I know better than you. And we have to get, we have to have a thousand lessons in that sucker that it gets beaten out of us at every moment in thirties, forties and fifties that any way that we're attached that we put up a, I know and you don't know. I'm an, I

am and you aren't and of course all of that it just is just something we need to let go of.

Sherisse Alexander (23:42)
So I'm going to circle back far. Because when you first started talking, you were talking about Saturn. And we didn't really dive into a lot of intro about really what the work that when you're working with people, what are you helping them work through? Like we talked a little bit about Vedic astrology. So for the audience who might not know anything about Vedic astrology, people will know about most people I think have an idea of

Western astrology and very, very surface level, but tell us more about Vedic astrology and what exactly that means. How is it different?

Indra (24:16)
Okay, so Vedic astrology is astrology of India. The Western astrology is based on tropical. We cast our charts based on tropical time, which is the seasons. And so March 21st is Aries one, or Aries zero every year. It's based on the seasons. It's the relationship between the sun and the earth. In Vedic astrology, we take into the sun, excuse me, the earth, the sun, and then the sky behind the sun. The sky behind the sun is changing every year.

Sherisse Alexander (24:41)
Mm-hmm.

Indra (24:44)
And so it's called sidereal time or star time. so the chart is cast 24 degrees difference. The two systems were the same, about 400 AD, we're now 72 years is one degree. We are now 24 degrees different. And so the chart is cast slightly differently. That is the main difference. But the reality of it is the way I ended up doing astrology with no plan.

with a hope but no plan, 50 plus years of astrology, is that I basically have ignored all of the rules that most astrologers use. And I had this discussion with the lady yesterday who was a new Western astrology pretty well, and she was talking about, I understand what you're saying,

And it's the angle this and it's the aspect that and it's the transit this and it's the square this and it's the outer planet that and I'd say yes. But much simpler is the fact is that your Mars and your Mercury, excuse me, your Mars and your Saturn are debilitated, which means they're in their least favorite place and you are continually edgy from the planets that are not happy. And it becomes a very simple.

astrology and it becomes very empowering is that I'm not telling I'm trying to teach because I want them to feel it in their body. I want them to have the experience and I had this experience with this again, this lady yesterday that I worked with her 15 months ago and I don't specifically remember anything that I said. I can look at the chart and kind of have a remembrance. We talked one time six months ago

And I can feel without having any idea of what I said before and what she said before, I could feel that she was understanding what we were doing on a much deeper level. And that it was intellectual at first with a, you know, I don't know if we can even express it with words, but let's call it intellectual. Now she's committed. Now she can understand it. Now she wants to live a happier life.

Sherisse Alexander (26:39)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Indra (26:57)
and I don't want to put words in her mouth, this is an interpretation, that she wants to live a happier life and in that happier life she realizes that she needs to stop reacting out of fear, low side of Saturn, and out of rebellion, low side of Mars.

Sherisse Alexander (27:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Indra (27:14)
and that it color coats all of her interactions, including with herself, when she's triggered.

Sherisse Alexander (27:23)
And just curious with the so in Western astrology, there's always and I think most people are aware of like mercury retrograde. There's mainstream articles that talk about mercury and retrograde. Are the retrogrades, they do they have do they operate in the same way? Like I think they operate in the same way. But do they have the same impact across Western culture as Western astrology and Vedic astrology?

Indra (27:33)
Sure.

Sherisse Alexander (27:47)
as an example.

Indra (27:48)
Okay, well it's interesting you bring up retrograde. So the thing is that the teaching is that they become weaker in retrograde because it isn't moving direct. It appears to be moving backwards. But in that weakness, they become stronger.

Sherisse Alexander (27:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Indra (28:05)
Okay, you get mad at your boyfriend and he better watch out. You're cool with everything, not a problem, but now you're pissed off and you get weaker and now he's got to watch out. Okay, I think you said you were married. Maybe I don't remember, but it doesn't matter. But the point is that, so it's both true, is that it does get weaker and it also gets stronger. So everybody disagrees. And so the reality of it's just a retrograde

Sherisse Alexander (28:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Indra (28:34)
It's in either case, it's a retrograde planet. How do you interpret it? I interpret it.

Sherisse Alexander (28:38)
I never actually

interpreted it as being weak. I always thought that it brings up exactly what needs to be addressed. And there's power in that and there's strength in that.

Indra (28:45)
Well, it is weakened because why Mercury retrograde? Why are we told not to come into contracts? Because the energy isn't direct and it isn't clear. It is in an amorphous state. It's that contracts don't get signed between Christmas and New Year's. It's just not the time for it. So in a sense, we call that weakening. You can think of it not being weakened, but it is weakened. it's

Sherisse Alexander (29:04)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Indra (29:13)
really it isn't the difference between retrograde has nothing to do with Vedic and Western. It's going to be interpreted different by an astrologer and it has nothing to do with sidereal or tropical time. is basically, it might be based on their tradition.

It might be based on their experiences, but the reality of it is that what I'm teaching people and sharing with people is a very simple approach to astrology is that the weak planets, planets that are debilitated, planets that are in signs that they're not happy, planets that are conjunct on happy planets, planets retrograde, planets cuspy at the edge, are all easily triggered. And that is the work.

And it's not that there's anything wrong. There's nothing inherently good or bad. But we compensate in our behavior and in our thinking and in our attitudes for the planets that are not happy.

It's actually rather simple, but also complicated at the same time.

Sherisse Alexander (30:13)
always considered it to be very complicated. But only because like I never even looked at anything beyond my, I think, sun sign until like in Western astrology, I think until maybe a year or two ago. And I very, very little knowledge of Vedic astrology. think I once did a Vedic astrology test and I think I realized I was a Virgo. My sun sign in Western astrology is

Indra (30:16)
Ha ha ha!

Scorpio.

Sherisse Alexander (30:39)
No, actually is Libra. If I did it right. I don't know if I did it right. It was one of those online things. And it said that I was it. Yeah, yes, yes. Which kind of made sense. But I what I felt made more. And so what would be really interesting for me anyways, and we can totally do this offline is having a full Vedic astrology natal chart done because I felt like I actually understood myself a lot more once I started looking at my natal chart.

Indra (30:45)
I'm sorry, said Virgo. Yeah, Virgo Libra. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Sherisse Alexander (31:05)
for Western astrology. It helped me understand who I really feel like I am privately behind closed doors versus who I show up as. So, but anyways, that's a conversation for another day.

Indra (31:15)
Well, I

think that's the reality is that's the reason for doing the astrology is that we learn about ourselves, that it's a, whether you call it a blueprint or an x-ray, the idea here is that there's a hidden self that we're unaware of and we, in 3D,

We're not so subtle. The subtleties aren't there, but in the underneath, very subtle and very important in order to know how we really work. It's the sharp nerdy kid who can open up the clock and computer and figure out how they're built and put together. Congratulations to them. It's really amazing to be able to...

look at the inner workings and see how they work and see how they're connected and it's all, how did we figure it out? How was it figured out? I have absolutely no idea and don't care. But the fact is that it's an incredibly intelligent, whether you call it,

Sherisse Alexander (32:07)
You

Indra (32:15)
coincidences, you can call it a thousand coincidences, but son of a gun, if I don't, you know, put my finger on cuspy retrograde, unhappy, debilitated planets, if those aren't the areas, a lady asked me yesterday, well, where should I put my attention? And I said those debilitated planets. And she said, yes, sure, of course, I see now. And it's a process of

of attunement to the ideas that you understand them on an intellectual level than you understand them.

in your body that you understand the words and the that you get triggered and then you understand it in that the feeling of it of the feeling of being triggered that when when again Saturn she gets fearful Saturn anybody's Saturn when we get fearful it's

to feel it in the body.

We can see it clearly with other people, but we have to learn how to get that objectivity to get out of the movie of our life into the audience in order to have the objectivity about our own. Wow, now we're feeling triggered and fearful.

Sherisse Alexander (33:25)
Yeah. And you're right, that is absolutely the benefit of, you know, doing that. And I'm just affirming your point that there is absolutely benefit in terms of understanding the inner workings of really what makes you up and why you get triggered. And yeah, we'll definitely talk more offline about a full Vedic natal chart. I'm curious though.

Indra (33:26)
What?

Sherisse Alexander (33:46)
Some of the work on your website talks about not only about Vedic astrology but Enneagrams and I'm curious about how those relate to each other like in terms of well, yeah, that's the question.

Indra (34:00)
Well, so the enneagram there, the enneagram, the term enneagram comes from Greek, it means nine-sided figure. The teaching has nothing to do with Greece, but this nine-sided figure, it's three geometric shapes that create nine points. And we can put anything at those points, but in the enneagram of personality, they put personalities. And the teaching is on the simplest of levels, it's a personality typing scheme that says that there are nine personality types. I believe,

that there are nine personality types and that these and that the understanding of the Enneagram of personality stories about each of those types, one of them is at our core. One of them is who we are. It's our lens to help us navigate life. And by understanding in a deep way, this story helps us to unwind 5,000 years of Judeo-Christian tradition, all the crap that has been passed down from generation to generation.

can be wiped away by understanding our core story and understanding the strategy of it and releasing the need for the strategy. And how they work together is that they both, call astrology as the track coach. It's looking at elbows and knees to try to get the time, you know, milliseconds down on your time for the hundred yard dash.

The Enneagram is the crowd in the stands watching the whole race. It's a wide angle view of the life. And it just says, eight, you're the boss or the challenger, seven, you're the enthusiast, six, the Enneagrams are numbered, six, the loyalist, and it puts it the loyalist, and it's a whole story right from there, boom, done. It's like when you read the literature,

Sherisse Alexander (35:43)
Yeah.

Indra (35:45)
You understand everything comes from that. But in astrology, it's Mars this, it's Pluto that, it's Sun this, it's the seventh house this, it's sixth house that, and it's a much more elbows and knees. It's a much more linear way of approaching. And how I work with them together is that I can see the Enneagram in astrology. I can see the Enneagram playing out in the astrological configurations, and that helps us

Sherisse Alexander (35:50)
Hmm.

Mm.

Indra (36:12)
that can help us to give us more, once again, deeper understanding and...

just a better map, know, just more maps, you know, you want to figure out how to get to, you know, your aunt's house and you get more maps, you know, just to be able to figure out how to figure out where it is, you know, it's where did the roads go and where do they, how, what's the best way to get there? You may need a, you may need an airline schedule. You may need a train schedule. You might need a bus schedule. You might just drive there and.

Sherisse Alexander (36:28)
you

Indra (36:44)
and it might be a long enough drive where you're to stop in between for the night and you know I mean all of these different maps to be able to pinpoint it and so astrology and anagram are two excellent maps that I have found in order to really get down to the core of

the hindrances to being.

Sherisse Alexander (37:02)
Mm-hmm.

Indra (37:03)
free.

Sherisse Alexander (37:05)
Yeah. So for the people that would be like your ideal client, what would they be saying? would they be thinking? Like what would be the thing that you would say? Like if you feel like this or if you're thinking that, call me.

Indra (37:19)
That's an interesting question. It's

really the lost ones. It's the ones that don't know who they are and don't know where they want to be and have tried everything and it isn't working and at the end of their sanity, perhaps, whatever, they're really ripe. Because the ones that have it mostly together that are merely curious,

They're not so invested yet. They're just merely curious. And the thing is is that this approach is full on, hands on. It'll take you all the way. It's not that I'm going to taking you. It's not me. It's the teachings themselves. And it's the approach as the coach.

I want to hold the biggest goal up to you. That's where we started. Okay? Why start there? I'm just a lonely beginner, you know? Why start there? Because I want you to know where you can get to.

Sherisse Alexander (38:13)
Okay, so those that are really lost.

Indra (38:14)
You know, that you

can get to the Olympics. If you really apply yourself every day at seven years old, you can get to the Olympics. And thanks coach for that belief. You know, and then one day, some of them do.

Sherisse Alexander (38:27)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. I want to pivot a little. I love asking this question. And because you, I've got a couple of guests that spend quite a bit of time in India and I don't know that I've gotten an answer. That's probably because the answer is very complex. Maybe it's not complex, but karma, what actually is karma?

Indra (38:51)
Herma.

Karma is wind.

Sherisse Alexander (38:53)
That one I've never heard. That's a first. Okay.

Indra (38:55)
Karma is like wind. is

just, is just, Karma is, is,

just wind in our sail going a certain direction from a direction. is just past experience. is intention, previous intention.

Sherisse Alexander (39:07)
Okay.

Indra (39:14)
Karma is our friend. Karma is neutral. Karma is neither good nor bad. Karma just is.

Sherisse Alexander (39:20)
So it's our friend, it's neutral, it's neither good nor bad, it's the wind in our sails, or like the wind in our sails. So there's an idea of a correction, right? I do, okay. Well, you know, because when people say things like, karma's gonna get you, or karma's real, it'll, yeah.

Indra (39:27)
Yeah.

No, not a correction.

Well, yeah,

that's, they have to grow up from that. It's not that karma's gonna get you, it's that nobody is out to get you, dear. That's our fight or flight. That's our reaction to I'm not good enough. That's my arrogance. Don't tell me how I am. Don't tell me that I don't know better. That's arrogance.

Sherisse Alexander (39:49)
Okay.

Indra (40:01)
Karma is just the language. So we understand each other because we're speaking English. Karma is just another language. The language of karma is that experiences have energy. that energy...

Yeah, I don't know. it, is it?

Are all coin flips neutral? Or if it's come up heads five times, will it come up heads again? They say it's neutral. So maybe it is neutral. Maybe there isn't karma that you have. But the reality of it is that if you flip it a certain way and you start in the same circumstance, you're going to end up with the same result.

Sherisse Alexander (40:39)
who started in a certain way.

Indra (40:40)
Yeah, in other words, if

you start with heads up and you flip it the same way that by the time it hits the ground or your hand, it's turned 87 times. Every time you did it, it went 23 times. Then you may end, then the circumstances are the same, you're gonna maybe end up with the same side of the coin and that's neutral. But no, you're actually flipping it differently. You start with heads up one time and tails up one time and you flip it 23 times and 27 times and.

19 times and 15 times and so it's everything is different and Karma is

Yeah, karma is just our past experiences. And they're neither good nor bad. And they just are. And we make a story about them. And we need to make them bad in order to protect us. And we need to make them we need to we want them to be good so that that you know, that will be angelic. And we already are angelic. We don't need any of that. But we do. Because we aren't.

Sherisse Alexander (41:20)
Okay.

So, if karma is neither good nor bad, it just is. And it's a collection of past experiences. And I know that the human tendency is to always make a judgment about something as positive or negative, good or bad, or whatever the case may be. So I'm trying to like, word this in a way that avoids that. So that's why I use the word correction. But what I really think I meant was balance, right? If we

Indra (42:06)
Well, balance

is lot different than correction. Sure.

Sherisse Alexander (42:09)
Right. So

let me use the word balance instead, right? Like if we look at light versus dark, neither is good nor bad, it just is, right? So if there's light, we're generally going to want to balance that out with dark or contrast, because how can you know what light is without the contrast to appreciate what the light is? So if we forget about correction, let's use the word balance. Does that help describe what karma actually is? So if we talk about

Indra (42:16)
Right.

Sherisse Alexander (42:36)
the collection of experiences that we might be balancing either in this lifetime or future lifetimes. Is that a better description of what it is? For my understanding, for my understanding.

Indra (42:46)
Well, I don't see,

I think that I like the word balance and the fact is that it's nice to have dark and sleep in the dark. We can sleep in the light, but it's nice to have the dark and the balance is good. But I don't think we need to balance karma. I think that's, that's anthropomorphism that we wanted to fit our framework here as humans, that we needed to be balanced. I don't think karma cares.

Sherisse Alexander (42:51)
Okay.

Okay.

Because karma just is.

Indra (43:15)
Yeah, because karma just

is. But this is a good point, because it's very tricky that we want to cozy up to it like it's our favorite pet, and we want to pet it and feed it good food. But it's just karma. It doesn't need that. It doesn't care.

Sherisse Alexander (43:29)
Yeah, it doesn't care. Okay, so I'm still struggling

with the answer then and maybe it's because I want to make it fit in my head. And this goes back to the need to know why or to trying to understand, right. And I think I'm actually just bringing it up. It's like really at the end of the day, I don't particularly care. It's just really the conversation or the question comes up and there's so many different ideas about what karma

Indra (43:42)
Yes, of course.

Sure.

Sherisse Alexander (43:56)
actually is and there's no consistency within it.

Indra (43:58)
So the thing is

that karma has come in. What comes to me right now is that karma, you're retribution. You've got a kind of a retribution thing going on here. I don't want to label you, but that's what I'm feeling. I don't want to let go of retribution. Karma is just past history, but that doesn't mean...

Sherisse Alexander (44:10)
You

Indra (44:20)
it doesn't have necessarily have a meaning. We're going to give it a meaning because we're humans and we got these brains and we don't know what else to do with them, you know? So we, so we, let's put it into the retribution column. That's a...

Sherisse Alexander (44:33)
I actually don't know that I think it's retribution. think the reason why I'm asking the question is I heard a very interesting idea about karma the other day that I'd never considered. And what the person had said is karma isn't real if you don't actually feel bad about something that you've done. And I was like, hmm, interesting. I've never heard because, and I think the point she was trying to make is like, if you don't own it and take it on, it's like I did something wrong.

Indra (44:59)
Yeah.

Sherisse Alexander (44:59)
or that there's

this expectation that somewhere down the road, this lifetime or the next, that there'll be a balancing of said action. She's like, it doesn't really exist if you don't take it on. And I was like, that's an interesting idea.

Indra (45:09)
I think

that's kind of garbaging myself. Yeah, I think that's arrogant. I don't think it matters whether we take it on, that we don't take on cancer, but yet we have it. I mean, it isn't a choice, but it is a choice on some level. I think the balancing creates retribution.

Sherisse Alexander (45:13)
Okay. Okay.

Mm.

Indra (45:30)
think that it needs to be balanced and it becomes a retribution because that's why it needs to be balanced. But I don't feel that way in the moment that it just is. And the worst that happens to us is for our highest. And everybody talks about how horrible afterwards, how horrible it was that they could make money on it. I was at the lowest.

Sherisse Alexander (45:47)
I agree.

Yes.

Indra (45:57)
I had nothing and then I found this course and the course saved my life and now I'm making money. teach the course and da da da da. This is what we do. We take our lows, yield our highs and our highs yield our lows. Nobody promotes that, but it's absolutely also true.

Sherisse Alexander (46:13)
Yes.

But I think that then, okay, so I see now why you said balance, right? Because sure, you're right. We might have an experience that we don't particularly love, but I think everybody can agree that if you, it depends on how you, what the story is that you tell yourself about that experience. most people, like, let's use COVID-19 as a really good example, I think anyways.

Most people that I have talked to through this podcast, almost every single one of them have told me about some significant life change that they made right during the pandemic. And even one of my children, and he was saying exactly what you're talking about, my life, it's terrible, COVID took this from me. And I said, darling, for all that COVID took from you, it also gave you your greatest passion. So maybe it's how we look at it in the story that we're telling ourselves.

I think, okay, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Indra (47:11)
Absolutely, you nailed it. That's the point

is that no matter how bad we have an experience that when we get away from that bad experience, it somehow it became the pivot of we could vault from that into a high experience and that's God having a laugh if he's a he and if he laughs, know, is like

Sherisse Alexander (47:31)
Yeah

Indra (47:34)
is like, you know, we're down here trying to balance it and everybody is going, you don't get it. It's no different. That the good times and the bad times aren't really that different. They may feel differently, but they're not actually that different in the sense that they're just experiences. And some of them you like because they feel good and they taste good and some of them you don't like, but they are just as

Sherisse Alexander (47:42)
Yeah.

Yes.

Indra (48:00)
juicy because they lead to the good times.

Sherisse Alexander (48:03)
It's very true. And I think this most recent low time that and interestingly enough, it started at the beginning of this year, I came in like most people are 20, 25. I'm so excited. It's gonna be amazing. And two weeks in slam, right, like experience I abhor, but quickly was able to go, I'm gonna make some juicy lemonade out of this low experience, right. And now I'm just like, I was

Indra (48:18)
Yeah.

You

Sherisse Alexander (48:29)
I'm having such a high right now. was talking to someone on the photo. It's just like my cup was running over and bubbling. Like I was just like, I'm so happy with life right now. And maybe people think I should be upset, but I'm not. like, things feel real good, real juicy. And she actually was just like, I don't understand what's going on with you. But for me, I think I understand what you're saying. It's because when you start to get into these experiences that you realize that don't feel so good, there's actually something to be really excited about.

If we go back to the old cliche of it's always darkest before dawn, there's something really juicy and exciting that's going to come after this. That's not to rush the low point because I think the harder you try to rush it, the slower it goes.

Indra (49:00)
Yeah, of course.

Yeah, it's not

it's not, you know, you may as well starve yourself because then you're going to have a good time. That's not going to work that way. but this is, you know, you want to know what do I do? It's coming to people. It's coming. It's sharing with people at this level that that I at the beginning of the reading in the readings, I start with.

Sherisse Alexander (49:16)
Yeah.

Indra (49:33)
the reading is essence to essence, from higher self to higher self. That we're going to talk about personality, but we're not talking from personality or to personality. That we want to have this higher level discussion. That's this discussion is to bring people to their maturity and to their, to get out of the wretchedness of the story in the moment.

and to get it from a higher, to pick it up from a higher level in order to realize that, this is where I need to grow rather than I'm screwed and I'm stuck. That's my client is when they say they're stuck. That's my people because then they're going to listen.

Sherisse Alexander (50:11)
Thank

Yeah. And what are some of the services that you offer? So obviously you've talked about readings and, but let's dive just a little, we've got a few minutes left. So let's talk a little bit about like what it is that you offer potential clients.

Indra (50:26)
Well, readings is mostly what I'm doing right now. The book is, the first book is almost done and I think that will give people a lot also. But that isn't happening yet. I mean, I can't really talk about it in the sense of it's not done. I mean, it's done, but it's not print, it's not available yet for sale. It's mostly through the readings and the readings are interesting because

because I have a lot of different ways of getting at it that I've been given. The astrology itself, Vedic astrology, I have the enneagram of personality that you learn your core triggers. The astrology gives you your strengths and weaknesses. The wheel of totality is a modality given to me by spirit is what I say. And I don't believe I came up with it on my own.

And the teaching is that there are blind spots or places of ignorance. It's the empty houses that nobody really talks about in astrology. Each house contains awareness. But if you don't have a planet there, that awareness is a blank spot, and we don't start working on them until we're 50.

Sherisse Alexander (51:32)
Hmm.

Indra (51:34)
And so that is another tool. I work with a location astrology, astro-chotography, to help people to find the power of place. A lot of people want place to be the first thing. Place is the last thing because wherever you go, you bring yourself there. You've got to kind of clean that up. That a place is, you can be better off in a place, absolutely. But the healing that you're really wanting

In other words, people say, relationship, my job, finding peace, those things are internal. They're not, they can be helped a bit by where you are, but for most people, it's an internal process. And what it ends up with, it doesn't actually matter where you are. So I work with that to,

Sherisse Alexander (52:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. So true.

Indra (52:25)
to reflect those kinds of energies and modalities and aspects of their life.

to bring it back to them to be more whole. And then I also work with obviously relationship readings with couples and then family dynamics, which is with extended family or friends or children and parents, know, whatever, family dynamics. And then I have another reading, the Navamsa reading, is the in Vedic astrology.

It's the chart of who we become.

So, and that's about, that's at 60. So it doesn't mean you have to be 60 to have the reading, but the idea is that we become, we actually do leave our natal, we have the ability to leave our natal chart. Yeah, we have an ability once we, you know, not in 20 years and maybe not in 40 years, but in 60 years, we've been through most of these challenges. And like with this client I was talking about yesterday with,

Sherisse Alexander (53:13)
That was going to be my question. Yeah.

Indra (53:29)
at 55, she's, you know, I felt yesterday that we were really into some core issues here for her. And when she gets through those, then a lot of that natal chart, she will leave behind, leave behind in the sense of the issues of the chart. She can live on the high side of the chart, not live on the low side of the chart. And so I have a dynamic, and then plus just basic counseling.

Sherisse Alexander (53:52)
Yeah.

Indra (53:53)
Basic counseling is starting in the middle and working outward in all directions at the same time. What's on your heart? We've already had a reading. What is it that you need to hear again? And what's come up in it? a week later, a month later, a year later, they're still floating. The readings go on for five years at least.

Sherisse Alexander (53:58)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. wow. Okay.

Indra (54:17)
and maybe more, yeah,

that they're vibrant, that you can listen to it again. If you heard the reading two years after I give you it, you will still be, a lot of things will be clear and you will hear things that you never heard before. There will be still things for you to work on and some of may be new.

Sherisse Alexander (54:29)
It ends.

Yeah.

Wow, that's impressive.

Okay. So, yeah, I just never.

Indra (54:41)
That's the way it seems to work, what can I say? And

again, it wasn't designed that way. It's a reflection of my personality. It's a reflection of the work that I've done. It's a reflection of my own nature, but it wasn't the plan. The plan was to share.

Sherisse Alexander (54:50)
Yeah.

It really is. Yeah.

Well, thank you. really a lot of readings and a lot of overlay of different, because you talked about individual readings and family and couples and then counseling. And I'm sorry, you mentioned a reading I've never heard before. Start with an N. Astrochotography. Yes, Navamsa. That's the one. OK. So lots of different options then for anybody who might feel stuck.

Indra (55:13)
Astrophotography, Navamsa.

Sherisse Alexander (55:23)
and not sure which way to go and what to do. This is a good and reasonable place to start. So I guess what I would say is thank you so much for joining me here today. Is there any final parting words that you would like to share?

Indra (55:36)
Absolutely. want to I want I make an offer to all of your listeners the for two free offerings and the free offering is if you email me You can check out the website Indra Rinsler comm you can email me Do you have any questions Indra Rinsler all one word at gmail.com if you send me your Birth date time in place. I need the three date time in place and I will send you your Vedic charge

And it's not a free reading, but I will make a comment or two on your reading, on your chart. And then the second offer is the Enneagram of Personality. I will send you a free, again, a free five to 10 minute test that will make you think, but only for five or 10 minutes. And that it will help you to either find your Enneagram number or it will highlight to you which ones you should start investigating.

those are free just email me anyone that's interested and and go from there and if anybody's interested in the reading you start by e also start by emailing me

Sherisse Alexander (56:39)
Beautiful. I will ensure that all of your contact details are posted when this is published. to guests or visitors and listeners today, thank you so much for joining myself and Indra as he shared more about his journey and Vedic astrology as well as Enneagrams. As always, questions, email, subscribe, comment, reach out to me.

I will make sure that we have interest contact information available as well so you can reach out directly to him. And until next time, please take care of yourselves.