Dan and SCOTUS History with Daniel Cotter

In episode 10 of Don’t Buy The Bull, Cassandra Toroian interviews Daniel Cotter, a corporate business attorney, and Supreme Court enthusiast, as they explore topics ranging from the Supreme Court's history to current events like the potential overturning of the Chevron doctrine. Dan also shares insights on insurance coverage, cybersecurity tips, and the importance of understanding policies.

Tune in for an engaging discussion on law, government, and staying true to your instincts in the world of finance.

TIMESTAMPS

[00:01:18] Supreme Court interest backstory.

[00:06:19] Favorite Supreme Court Justices.

[00:08:46] The Chevron doctrine

[00:13:29] SEC and blockchain regulation.

[00:18:23] Insurance for risk management.

[00:22:46] Cyber security and fraud awareness.

[00:25:29] Scam prevention and voice security.

QUOTES

• "I think most people just aren't aware of how much of our civil liberties we've succumbed to the regulatory government.  Because it's kind of quietly, slowly, we don't realize that really that's what governs us pretty much most of our day. It's not really the stuff coming out of Congress at this point, right?" - Cassandra Toroian
• “Just on a, on a regular basis, look at your accounts, banking accounts or credit cards, anything you have that can be charged to make sure that you recognize whatever's being charged.” - Daniel Cotter
• "My best advice is on your cell phone if you have a landline. Whatever it is, uh, if you don't recognize the number, don't answer it. And if it's important, they'll leave a message.” - Daniel Cotter

SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS

Cassandra Toroian

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/CassandraToroian/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CassandraToroian1/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cassandra-toroian/

Daniel Cotter

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cotterdaniel/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/daniel.cotter1/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cotterdan/

WEBSITE

Cassandra Toroian: https://cassandratoroian.net/

FirstHand Research and Consulting LLC: https://1sthandresearch.com/

Don’t Buy The Bull: https://dontbuythebull.io/

Transcript

Welcome to Don't Buy the Bull, a podcast dedicated to unmasking the truth behind how so-called trusted Wall Street institutions and the American government really work. I'm your host, Cassandra Tourian. You can call me Cass. I'm a seasoned former equity analyst, investment manager and former Wall Street Journal All-Star Analyst. And I'm passionate about helping people think for themselves by teaching them about things like investing, which may not be their forte. My only goal is to help you figure out how to use your own discernment and instinct to make good investment decisions for yourself. I have no skin in the game. And to do what I'd like to help you do, we have to look at the world around us, since the stock market does not operate in the bubble. So let's dive in. Well, it's great to see everybody. This is Cassandra Torian, Don't Buy the Bull. And I'm really excited about our guest today. This is Dan Cotter. And Dan is, by day, a corporate business attorney in Chicago. By night, he is a Supreme Court junkie and has actually written a book about the Supreme Court, which is right up my alley. And he also has his own podcast for the last couple of years, which is called Podium and Panel. So interesting stuff there for for those geeks out there like that, like history and a little a little bit of the government sagas from the past. So it's great to have you today. I really appreciate you being on. I've been looking forward to talking with you again.

Cassandra Toroian

Well, thank you, Cassandra. And I'm pleased to be here. And I love the title of your podcast. And, uh, I used to, uh, I used to tell my kids K and B, uh, kick, you know, but no bull. And, uh, I actually formed an LLC at one point, but never used it. But, uh, I'm a big fan of no bull.

Daniel Cotter

Yeah, well, you know, there's so many ways in which that can be taken nowadays. Seems the bull is all around us in one form or the other. So it just happened that I had written a book called Don't Buy the Bull years ago. And when thinking about doing this podcast, I just couldn't come up with anything better than that because it was so appropriate. So we hope to call out certain things as we see them, call it as we see it, and just raise awareness. Really, the point of having you on is to give people an opportunity to maybe learn something today about you know, some areas of law or the Supreme Court or cyber security that they that they just don't know anything about. Right. And they're not probably going to get it from watching the local news. So why don't you start with telling us a little bit about your interest in the Supreme Court? And then we can go into some more current event details there.

Sure. So my interest, uh, in the Supreme court started when I went to law school and, uh, you know, I hadn't really paid attention to it before that, uh, love constitutional law. And one of the things that my, my in-laws started buying me and I started buying his biographies and books about the Supreme court and was very interested. And as I think I told you in preparation for the show, Cassandra, the thing that, you know, uh, curious learners and other people, I think that, that, uh, kind of go through any subject matter in college and law school and grad school is that we get pieces. We never get stuff in context of what's going on. We don't learn about what's behind, uh, what we're reading. And so I started thinking about that in law school, didn't have time at the time. And, uh, my collection grew. I have probably 300 to 500 books about the Supreme court on my bookshelves at home. an entire six to eight feet tall section of our bookshelves at home. In the basement, I've got all kinds of books about the Constitution, including the ratification. There's a Wisconsin Historical Society, for some unknown reason, has done a by-state of all the notes and all the convenings. And so I don't have all those books. They're very expensive, but I have probably half the set. We'll, we'll eventually hopefully get the whole settle though. My wife will probably kill me on that. So I started having this interest and then, uh, jump ahead. I was teaching in 2010 ish. I think it was. And it was T I, I proposed a class, a Supreme court judicial biography. And my thought was that there were 17 chief justices. We would, uh, over the 14 weeks kind of cover them. And once one a week, uh, the first three and the first class and, uh, in academia, that that didn't have enough grit or so the person that sponsored said now you got to do this other thing and so in the back of my mind I said you know eventually I want to write about this and kind of think about it that's what led to the book and what's the name of the book uh the chief justices the chief justices is it on amazon it is it is and that's the the short title and then it you know it has a colon and you know the 17 men their times and decisions and and uh So that was really it. But I also write a column for the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin, Cotter's Corner. It started out monthly, then biweekly, and now it's weekly. And I've written about the Constitution, the history of the United States, and about the Supreme Court pretty extensively over the last 14 years or so.

So out of those 17 justices, which one is your favorite?

You know, that's a good question. And I rank them in the book and, and, uh, which is a difficult exercise, but if I had to pick a couple, I had my top three, I think in the book where chief justice, John Marshall, who was the fourth chief justice of the United States. Um, his, his, uh, cases really set the tone for kind of constitutional law, um, from Dartmouth, which had to do with, uh, uh, corporate body. and how they act to McCullough and Marbury v. Madison that said the Supreme Court could rule. Chief Justice Warren, just because of his, when you look at his Roe v. Wade, not Roe v. Wade, Brown v. Board of Education, the way that he got that to be a unanimous decision and flipped it from being an affirmance of Plessy, probably, is pretty interesting, just his kind of Leadership and style and not the most academic guy he would admit he was like a student at berkeley. But he was a very popular governor and attorney general in california. In fact, he was the nominee at one point of both the republicans and the democratics and the independents out in california when he ran for governor and then a third one would be a charles evans hughes and he and the reason for that is he managed a lot of the. Uh, the new deal and, and a lot of, uh, just dealing with it, the court that was referred to as by one of the justices then as nine scorpions in a bottle, a lot of infighting and stuff. And he was able to manage kind of over just by his kind of leadership, uh, was, was able to get that court to behave.

So fast forward now, we've had a lot of new folks added in the last 10 years, depending on what your views are. They could have been good picks or bad picks, but there seems to be a lot. This is a very active court, right? So we were talking earlier about some of the big decisions we're waiting for, one of which could overturn the Chevron doctrine. Can you talk a little bit about that and about the case? Sure.

So the Chevron doctrine is that when Congress enacts legislation and for executive agencies, which there's a lot of, right, the administrative states, uh, has grown over the, over the decades. Um, and their, uh, interpretations of, of their authority is not, uh, is not creating ambiguity with respect to it, to their mandates. Uh, then the Chevron doctrine says we defer to that kind of the agency and the cases that have come up Chevron was, uh, was in the EPA, uh, case and environmental protection act, clean water act. Um, the, the court has, uh, lat last term, uh, the court looked at a case and kind of, uh, punted or decided not to really full bore address the Chevron doctrine. It's been around since 1984. It was a decision that, uh, there's a lot of stuff coming out about how the decisions made, uh, with the papers of standard day O'Connor and, and justice Stevens. Uh, um, but there's another case. It's another, uh, environmental protection act case. And probably this week, uh, the week of last week of June, or they may go into the next week because they still have about 13 decisions left. The Supreme court is expected. They, they agreed to hear a case, uh, that had to do with fishermen and, and, uh, uh, the regulation of them. And, uh, the question that's before them is, is a head on, uh, question of whether the Chevron doctrine is still good law. Uh, the expectation, I think, from listening to the oral arguments and from the pundits and people much smarter than me is that this court is likely to, uh, maybe full bore address it. Although initially things happened in recent, uh, uh, terms, Cassandra and especially this term. Uh, there's been some discussion about how justice Amy Coney Barrett, who's one of the newest on a court, um, how she. as kind of maybe pushing back a little bit on the full history and tradition type of approach. She had a concurrence, I think, last week where she outlined some of that in the case that came down late last week, Rahimi, which had to do with domestic violence and Second Amendment. She was in the majority. It was an A1 decision, only Justice Thomas dissented. But like you said, I think For, for your listeners, I think the, the, um, stay tuned for, for the Chevron case, but, uh, all you have to do is Google Chevron later this week or next week when the decision comes down and you'll see what the decision is. Um, the one thing I always caution people is when the decisions come out, when they come from the bench, if you remember the affordable care act several years ago, uh, the, on the front, uh, steps of the courthouse. They said, well, the affordable care act is overturned because what happened in that case was chief justice. John Roberts said, uh, that the commerce clause was not viable. Right. But then they had to turn the page and it's a taxi. Um, but this one's got a lot of attention and, uh, it'll, it'll change the way that, uh, things happen. And as you and I talked about the, the, the, the, the challenge will be. If in fact, a full on say, you know, Chevron doctrine is no longer, uh, the law of the land, how this Congress and how the agencies, uh, will function going forward. My expectation will be if they fully head on, say Chevron is no longer a good law. That's, uh, what we'll see is a lot more challenges. We'll see challenges to various agencies, whether it's the sec, the EPA, we'll see a series of challenges in future terms. Uh, but, but there'll be some discussion about. Once again, are they using discretion? Do they have to change things? And if so, how do they function?

Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, that's part of Congress's job, right, is to legislate. So maybe it's just as simple as getting them to put some real detail around things and give these agencies a bright line, right? Because it does seem like they've expanded, this regulatory creep has happened, right? And so many of the, like you mentioned, the EPA, the CFTC, the SEC for sure. So, you know, actually going into that topic. We could talk about the SEC and their blockchain and crypto attempt to land grab, if you will. My thought on it really is that it's not in their purview, but it really is more of a different agency that should be involved there. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, although if there's a different agency involved, then it's Is that more creation of an administrative state? So that that's kind of the rub, right?

I mean, in my mind, the, um, you know, you're talking ultimately about currency, right? In the case of Bitcoin. So what's the regulator that already oversees currencies and currency trading? It's not the sec.

Yeah.

Right. It's, I believe. The, um, the, uh, the, uh, I'm going to say CFTC.

That might be the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can do that again. I think that those are some of the questions I think that will come out of, again, this kind of, uh, what's been designed. And again, one of the things that, you know, I think in the bump stop, Kate bump stock came out last week. Uh, again, you know, I think Alito's concurrence talked about the fact that, you know, Congress could in fact fix these things and make it, um, um, you know, you know, one of, one of the things I think that, that, uh, we, we talk about is, is for example, in the constitution, there, there, there, there's the creation of the postal service. There's a creation of the patent office. And again, so. uh... with with very little guidelines right in the in their and and in fact that it's interesting that this court the supreme court uh... which has been delegated authority uh... by whom but congress writing congress by judicial access that really the time because if you look at article three the constitution this is jordis of the three articles war three branches of government writing to says uh... congress will create a supreme court in such a period court says it seems appropriate have at it, you know, and here's a couple other things. And most of article three talks about trees and other things. So it's an interesting, you know, it's interesting. And again, like I said, Congress is, uh, is tasked with these things, you know, and we'll see if they're up for the task. I think, I'm not sure if they were up for the task in 1984. The final thing I'll say about Chevron is interesting because, uh, back, back in 1984, when this, uh, was, uh, created. by the Supreme Court. Justice Stevens wrote the majority opinion and tried to make some bright-line rules. The reality is that the conservatives, Justice Scalia, for example, before he got on the Supreme Court, he loved him some Chevron Why? Because it was, uh, the Ronald Reagan administration. And if you look at Ronald Reagan and that administration, if you look at the, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, register of, of, of regulations, um, it grew six or seven fold in the, in the eight years of, of, of Ronald Reagan. So, um, again, the minister of state, you know, and, and again, I think, you know, one of the things I've talked about with, with my co-hosts on the podcast, we've talked about otherwise. Is, is that one of, one of the things that will be interesting is, is depending on which who's in the white house, which, which administrative agencies they are okay with having discretion or not. Right. It kind of, it's a pendulum, right. It's, you know, the, the Biden administration, the, uh, the FTC is very active, the federal trade commission, um, the, the, the, some other, uh, agencies, the SEC, like we're talking about. So who knows?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think most people just aren't aware of how much of our civil liberties we've succumbed to the regulatory government. Because it's kind of quietly, slowly, we don't realize that really that's what governs us pretty much most of our day. It's not really the stuff coming out of Congress at this point, right? I mean, you know, speed limits and having to have car insurance and, you know, that's all regulatory government, right?

It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So one one more thing. So I did want to talk about because I know you do quite a bit in the insurance area as well. And, you know, I think some people feel like insurance is a necessary evil. Right. I mean, We hope we never use it, but I mean, in your mind, what should the average person really know about? Um, what kind of insurance coverage you consider from a risk management for someone's life, right? What they should really have.

Yeah. I mean, uh, at minimum, like we talked about car insurance, um, uh, homeowners or rental insurance. Uh, but you need to be, you know, one of the things I always. we talk about is you need to fully understand the policies and what they provide. And the best example I think of this is in the COVID era, a lot of business interruption for businesses, small businesses, right? People had business interruption and the courts universally found that there was no coverage for that. So you have to read the policies and most people don't. I think I think, you know, for a lifetime, uh, thing, I think, you know, depending on what kind of work you do, disability insurance is, is probably, you know, and if you're employed somewhere or even an independent contract, a lot of cases, uh, your, your company will have short-term disability, maybe long-term disability, and then you can do supplemental, um, you know, life insurance. People ask me a lot about that. I worked at a life insurance company. It was mostly term, you know, for some people whole life, which has benefits, right? Cash value and stuff has, has some attraction. But the flip side of that for most people is that it's very expensive for what you get. Right. And for, if you look at it's probably takes about 10 years to get a return on that first year of premium goes down the drain and it's much more, it may be five to 10 times more expensive or whatever the ratio is. It's much more expensive than term life. You get a lot more term life for most people. term life's going to be okay, right? As long as it goes till, you know, 75, 85, whatever age. What is that, Dan? What is that?

Um, term or, or definition of how somebody can tell in the document, what they're paying, what is the annual fee for the insurance? Cause there are a lot, a lot, big money in insurance. If you're an insurance salesperson, right. People don't realize how much, so what, what, what is that line they should look for?

Well, they should look at the premium. And again, if they're, you know, if you're like most people, Um, you, you should look at what it costs to pay monthly versus semi-annual or annually, uh, for your insurance. Uh, there's, there's an interest charge built into that. If you're paying upfront, you know, if you're not paying upfront, um, you need to look at that premium and, and the premium should include, um, it should include all of the commissions for the insurance agents. Like I said, depending on the line of insurance, life insurance, for example, uh, the first year. Uh, these agents get a lot of the, you know, multiples even higher than a hundred percent of what the first year premium is, but that that's all they get for it on car insurance and home insurance. They get a different commission. So look at, look at that front page on every insurance policy. When they quote you, it should show all in what, what your cost is. And again, uh, one of the things that I think is, you know, great in these, in this day and age progressive that, uh, they no longer advertise it. Cause I think there's a lot of engines out there. If you're looking at car insurance, if you're looking at life insurance, if you're looking at homeowner's insurance, go out and do a calculator tool, because it'll show you if you punched in some, some characteristics about your car or where you live, it'll give you some, here's what progressive charges, here's what state farm might charge, you know, whatever. Our, our public, uh, because, you know, for the same people, depending on how they're underwriting and what the cost of that insurance company are, that the rates range could be substantial for a given person.

Yeah, absolutely. People need to get sort of that independent third party calculator out so they could really see what the differences are. Absolutely. So one other thing we talked about briefly was cyber security and your work in the cyber area. And that seems to be getting more scary. Um, what, uh, what are there, what are some things that you think people need to know about that?

The one thing I'll say is that the, the bad actors have gotten more and more sophisticated. And so if you get a text from your bank or from the IRS, number one, IRS and other federal agencies, aren't going to email you or send you a tax, right? So, um, one of the, one of the traps that's happening a lot nowadays, Cassandra, is that you'll get a text from, it looks like it's Chase, right? Or it looks like it's Citibank. It'll say, did you authorize a transaction for $122? Please call us immediately. If it's not, I mean, the fraud, we all get the fraud notices. So we know what those look like. And if you've actually spent the money, that's one thing. But, but I would, I would tell people if you get an email, it looks suspicious because again, they, they look like they're from FedEx or you, United States postal service. Uh, my brother fell for it. So in Illinois, for example, uh, the only toll tollway authority has an online, uh, tool where you use the easy pass. And about a couple of months ago, uh, texts were coming out saying, please, uh, renew. You have to replenish $12. And he wasn't thinking he fell for it. And, uh, and, and then he had to change his credit cards and stuff. So what I would tell people is, is that. Just on a, on a regular basis, you know, look at your accounts, whatever, uh, banking accounts or credit cards, anything you have that it can be charged to make sure that you recognize whatever's being charged. If you're doing online, uh, transfers or anything. And then if it, if it's, if you don't expect something, take out your actual credit card or, or call your bank, the actual number, don't use the number or link that's in the text, call them up and see. Um, and maybe they'll say, uh, yeah, this is legit, but in many cases I'll say, no, that's a scam. Don't don't fall for it. Don't hit anything else. Um, and I can tell you many stories. I serve as an arbitrator. So my clients that have again, done these things where they've called, it looks like it's PayPal. It says, please call your crypto purchase or whatever. And they call and say, well, I didn't make any crypto purchase. And then the person says, well, give me your, your account number so I can verify. Right. That's all the details. We'll take it off and don't, don't fall for those.

Don't do it. Yeah. Also just be careful with your voice. Right. I mean, even if you get a 800 number phone call and they say your name, you know, people laugh at me and I kind of answer an unknown call with like a funny accent because they record your voice now. They do. And that can be used in all kinds of, there are all kinds of AI programs out there where they can make that one little snippet say anything in your voice they want.

It's scary. They also will ask, is this Cassandra? And if you say yes, again, they'll use that snippet. That snippet. Yeah. That you've authorized some crazy transaction. Exactly. Yeah. My best advice is on your cell phone, if you have a landline. Whatever it is, uh, if you don't recognize the number, don't answer it. And if it's important, they'll leave a message. You can call them back. But again, you're absolutely right. And again, with, with deep fakes and the AI tools are much better than they've ever been. You just have to be always alert that bad actors 24 seven are trying to find ways to make money and they do it in small increments, but it adds up because if they get They get 10 people a day, give them 800 bucks, that's a lot of money.

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes crime pays, I guess, right?

I guess, yeah.

Well, Dan, I really appreciate having you on. This has been a great conversation, and I'd love to have you on again, especially after some more of these Supreme Court rulings come out. I think it would be really interesting to go over some of them.

I'd be happy to come back anytime. Thank you.

Yeah. Well, great. All right, everybody. Uh, and remember hit that follow button or share with somebody our podcast here. Don't buy the ball. We would really appreciate it. Take care. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode. I really do appreciate it. Be sure to subscribe to the show, and that way you'll get updates about new episodes. Or if you really liked it, maybe you can share it to other folks you know. That I would really appreciate. So until next time, this is your reminder not to buy the bull. Ciao.