Milk Matters: Managing Canine Milk Production for Healthy Puppies

In this episode, we discover the intricate factors that determine milk production, from the workings of the brain to the influence of prolactin and hormone feedback loops. We’ll investigate whether dams exhibit different conditions due to their breed and how kibble or raw diet can affect a pregnant dog's appetite and milk quality.

See us uncover Isobel's secret weapon in maintaining optimal milk production and explore proactive supplementation strategies like fenugreek. We discuss everything from puppy squeaks' impact on milk to the effectiveness of puppy boxes in reducing milk production. 

Whether you're a seasoned breeder or a curious enthusiast, this episode of Breeders Brew is packed with invaluable insights and practical tips for nurturing healthy litters and unravelling the mysteries of milk production.

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Transcript

Isobel: 0:02

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by me, Isobel, the canine nutrition coach.

Sara: 0:08

And me Sara, the canine family planner.

Isobel: 0:11

Together we'll be promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods that owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom. So what are we going to talk about on this episode? We are going to talk about the factors that affect milk production, which is something that is obviously, as we know as breeders, Fundamental to the success of our litters. So we're going to look at all the different aspects that impact milk production, from hormones to diet to supplements. And we're also going to cover the most common issues with milk supply, such as post C section, the importance of colostrum and ways that you can actually optimise milk production.

Sara: 0:52

Yeah, so we've got tons to get through, so let's get on and find out more. Let's get this show started. So, I want to talk about my recent, one of my recent litters, and I see this conversation a lot online and it's in regards to milk production and having some patience around it. I've recently had a bulldog litter. Born by C section, quite a large litter of 10 puppies, of which seven were surviving. However, we had the usual dramas. I find milk production on bulldogs quite slow, most probably because of the high percentage of C section. So the hormones don't always get to kick in as a normal whelp would. And I think that has a huge impact on how quickly milk drops in. And the situation that I'm talking about Brought the puppies home. They all latched on fine. Mum was super good with the puppies, really motherly. But what I could see was happening is, well, they, they lost weight for a significant amount of time. I think it was at least four or five days, which is a little bit scary. I didn't fall into the trap of supplement feeding and, or uncover why. But what I could see was mum's milk was, I could literally see a ridge sitting above her teats. It was like this compressed milk, but it hadn't like been released. It hadn't dropped down. And the problem I had was because they were, it was a large litter for the breed. It meant the puppies were quite small, so they didn't have like this really strong suction. To be able to actually sort of entice this and pull this milk down. It's sort of a chicken and egg scenario. Ultimately it was quite good cause I had other puppies. So I was actually able to put these stronger and more developed puppies onto this female for them to actually draw the milk down, to then be able to put her pups on. A lot of people, even when I've had them in for reverse progesterone testing, which is a whole nother bag. Okay. But to know when to c section, we always have a quick check and oh yeah, first milk is in, also known as colostrum, is that correct? But people seem to think that that means that the milk tap has been turned on and that means like once the pups are born they're going to latch on, they're going to feed loads, they're going to get really fat really quick and And everything's going to be plain sailing and that isn't always the case, especially if a female is C section. And I think that's why vets are quite cautious about if there was an elective C section when that happens, they definitely don't want to go in too early and interrupt that natural pattern or hormone progression and elevation. But we do see online a lot of people I'm home, pups are losing weight and they're not very content. They're hungry. Should I start supplement feeding? I've been in that situation myself. Yes. In this instance, I did have another litter that actually helped me out, but equally it would have been, what are the methods that we could have taken if that was an option for me? I'm chucking it out there, Isobel.

Isobel: 3:58

There is, this is a massive topic to dissect and I think, like you said, it is one of the most commonly seen problems that we all as breeders face and we see online everywhere. And I think the most important thing that we need to point out, first and foremost, because a lot of people don't realize, is milk production is hormone driven. That's why girls having phantom pregnancies can full blown produce milk. They don't have to be pregnant to produce milk. And I think sometimes You know, there is quite a big misconception, and all of the things that we're probably going to uncover and the methods that we're going to chat about make a lot more sense when you realize that actually a lot of milk production is linked to the brain.

Sara: 4:40

What we see online the most is that people are saying, you know, Pups are born, mums panting loads. Owners seem quite concerned about that. They're not sure what that means.

Isobel: 4:51

This would be a very sensible place to start because if we're un piecing the whole puzzle let's start at the beginning. Absolutely, it's one of the most commonly reported problems in every whelping group on Facebook. It's the big pantic of panting, digging, oh my god what's happening to my girl. She's one day, two days, three days post birth and actually it's very, very Often that people sort of misdiagnose the situation, caveat, obviously I'm not a vet, I'm a puppy practitioner, as is Sara here experienced breeders. It's very common for people to go, oh my goodness, she's panting, she must be too hot. So then they start thinking, oh, let's take the heat pad away. Well, that's no good for the puppies. Don't take the heat pad away. Or they start saying, well, the room's too hot. So let's turn the radiators down. Or if she starts digging, they start thinking, okay, she needs more nesting material. We very commonly see is people saying that it could be eclampsia, which is a whole other problem. And absolutely. It's great that breeders are being proactive and understand the symptoms and have awareness because it is absolutely not something that should be messed with, but there is a very innocent reason for panting and digging. After birth, isn't that?

Sara: 6:02

We have talked in other podcasts about how important taking a dog's temperature is, and I think there's a big difference between a dog panting with no temperature and a dog panting with a temperature. I think that's always a really clear way to understand. Obviously. You're expecting a female to have a slightly elevated body temperature. She's just delivered however many pups metabolisms, you know, going at 90 miles an hour. There's a lot for our body to kick into gear, get into a rhythm. But yeah, if you've got a female panting with no temperature, that's a strong indication her milk is dropping and that can take up to three days. So yeah, I've actually experienced it on my females. It's like, it's a non stressy pant. Like it might be a quick fast pant and a consistent pant, but it never really elevates past that to the point of they sound exhausted or it gets all really throaty and to me, it's just a boring pant. Body kicking in. I'm showing that in one way or another. And panting is, is the easiest way for a dog to show that. So I'm always like quite shocked when people are worrying, but obviously if you've never seen your dog pant that consistently for that long. And it, people also need to have attention of when the panting's happening because coincides with every feed time or as however many X puppies are latched on, then that also ties in. So observation. is massive. As a dog owner full stop, like if you can read your dog and understand it will save you a vet bill a lot of the time I'm sure, but as a dog breeder it's those tiny little bits of differences in day to day helps you understand whether that's just general discomfort, something's quirky or no, it's over the line and the dog needs to go to the vet. Panting is definitely an element you will see on the majority of females. Milk still has to be released. Hormone levels are still going to do what they need to do. So I don't know if you want to talk about hormone levels, how they're derived, how they're driven and how that impacts.

Isobel: 8:03

I could absolutely. So essentially, obviously as with any birth, there is a release of hormones and It's completely controlled and, and then feed, it's a feedback loop is what it's actually called. So, essentially there can be negative feedback loops or positive feedback loops and you've got loops of everything going on inside the body. So, when labour kicks in, more and more and more hormone will be released in some. And then other hormones will sort of start to wind down after labour and milk is one of the tiny little byproducts of these hormones that control so many different things in the body. So as Sara mentioned there, if a girl goes in for a c section before she has gone into first stage of labour, then absolutely those labour chemicals is the best way of describing a hormone haven't been released into the body yet. So if those sort of triggers haven't kicked off this giant spiraling circle of a feedback loop, then you're not going to have the same bodily reactions straight away. But it is worth saying, obviously, you know, a bitch doesn't have to have a labour, or puppies, to go through this, this sort of cascade of hormones. It's no different at the end of the day to surrogate mothers and things like that, when breeders can provide a bitch that would either naturally start producing milk upon this literal sight or smell of puppies. Or a bitch that has lost an entire litter, maybe not even fed pups for a couple of days and a whole, you know, she can then go on to feed an entire litter.

Sara: 9:31

To be fair, I've even heard of dogs producing milk for kittens. It just goes to show like the maternal instinct that kicks in on some animals and they are way more dialed in. than the majority of humans because they don't have life in the way, basically, of external pressures and this, that, whatever. So they are more in tune with their bodies and what they should and shouldn't be doing. Phantom pregnancies are really common with dogs because some of their hormonal patterns happen regardless of whether they're pregnant or not. And that's what they do. Kind of confuses their system sometimes and that's why phantoms are so much more prone in dogs and many other breeds and species and that kind of thing. So I think they had that whole quirkiness happening anyway, when you think like a first stage labour take up to 36 hours, 24, some people went bat an eyelid out, like really up to 36, all those changes happening in that body in that time. Where if you're just going to have an elective c section, you're like, right, let's get up and go. All that time has just been cut out. That opportunity just isn't there. And then for them to come round from an anaesthetic and especially if they're new mums as well, don't even know what these little things are. I mean, first time mums will naturally tend to go, Oh, what's that as a like first puppy? I don't know what that is. What's happened. So to be a first time mum under a c section and then just wake up and go. These are your pups, we're just going to latch them on. There's so much behind on, on catching up to where they need to be for the body to then start milk production. With breeding, everything takes longer than what you think it might do.

Isobel: 11:07

Absolutely.

Sara: 11:08

We're such an impatient society now that we're kind of, they're in labour, like surely you're going to have pup in four hours. No. Oh, they started contraction. Sure. We're going to have pop in 10 minutes. No, everything is elongated. Read it online or we've read it in a book. Literally. We think as fast as it takes to read that it's going to happen. And that's just not the case. So I've learned. Patience is a huge virtue and generally when most people ring their vets with bitch in whelp, they're going to go, yeah, call us in two hours or call us in three hours. Or, you know, they're never very rarely the bitches in early stages of labour, they're going to go, yeah, rush, bring her down now. We need to do this. Even the vets just know like, yeah, like this stuff takes time and people are impatient. In regards to milk itself. So. When they're pregnant, they have first milk, also called colostrum. Is that correct?

Isobel: 11:59

It is indeed. And this is where a lot of people start panticking because they don't see these great big swollen mammary glands necessarily. She's not necessarily leaking. Yes, some breeds do. Some breeds are absolutely full to the brim, and some girls are, and each girl's different every pregnancy. But no, they can show very little signs of having a colostrum. any form of milk. And it doesn't mean there's nothing there. Like you said, it's this first form of milk that's called colostrum. A lot of mammals have it. Humans also go through the same process. And it is arguably the most important part of milk production and the most important things that a puppy needs is provided in that colostrum. So again, you'll see it all over the internet. Rita saying my girls have puppies 24 hours ago. There's no milk coming out of her teats. I don't know what to do. Well, there might not be milk flowing out of her teats because it's colostrum and it's not always very easy to see. It's not, it's not abundant, but it doesn't need to be because it is the most nutrient dense form of milk that is, is possible for a mother to provide. I mean, literally it's, it's nearly double as high in protein as milk is. So that just goes to show how dense it is. It's higher in fat, it's higher in calories and most importantly it's 10 times higher in antibodies than the milk is and the reason that that is is literally to give the puppies a huge boost of vital life nutrients and also immunity because puppies are essentially born with an immunocompromised system, like they don't have a fully fledged immune system. That first milk that people pantic and think isn't there because it's not flowing out of teats, the likelihood is it is there. And it is the most important things that those puppies need to feed on because it's literally going to provide them with their immunity for life, really, because there is a very short window, literally 12 to 24 hours, when a puppy is first born, that its intestines, imagine they've got holes in, imagine it's a really leaky sort of network of pipes in its tummy, that when it's drinking that colostrum, All of the goodness, including the immunity, which is called the antibodies, can literally leak into the body of the puppy and it can be absorbed and then that puppy can gain immunity for life from what it takes in from the the colostrum. So it's mega important. I think that's where people go wrong is particularly in that first window, if they think, ah, there's no milk, let's supplement the puppies. Yeah. You are feeding puppies formula milk instead of literally the liquid gold of life. Yeah. That is potentially coming out of mum at that point.

Sara: 14:36

Yeah, that delay helps the puppies learn to suck. Otherwise it's going up to fire hydrant and then just trying to catch like this, like catches milk. You need to start off small, don't you? You need to like, you can't just go in at the deep end. So I think that would be crazy just for there to be, Full milk and a puppy has never sucked a teat before. They're going to end up choking. So it makes sense, doesn't it? That you would know little and often let them learn the technique, know that they have to work a little bit harder to actually get it through and then actually let's switch on the tap slowly. Even that makes sense in itself, doesn't it? That you'd start off with less fluid, that sort of higher concentration has more effect and key essentials in it. And then slowly that dies off. Then actually the pups are strong enough to hopefully draw down this milk. Oxytocin is a hormone that helps with contraction of the uterus as well, doesn't it? So after the pups have been born, so all you've got all of these. Hormones are naturally slowly working for everything to slowly kick in. For my experience, I always say there's like these puppy milestones, and I generally say three days, 10 days, three weeks. If a pup dies within the first three days, it probably was always going to, like internally organs aren't developed, formed, they're not working. And that is almost. They're just not functioning. So the three days I believe can take for milk to drop in. So they might not have even had a decent milk supply by that point. And their organs are still already failing to process the colostrum fluids that are already in their body and that kind of thing. Then I've always said 10 days because that's where milk is fully in. And the body needs to actually work. And 10 days is typically when eyes start opening. It's like a growth spurt. And if you lose a puppy, then they can't push on. It's almost like they don't have that in them to then move on to the next stage for whatever reason that might be. And I've heard it, Oh, it's the biggest pup in the litter. And then it went downhill. It's like, yeah, just cause it could feed well and get fat doesn't necessarily mean it's bigger. Body's functioning correctly to be able to grow. Right. And then I always say three weeks, cause that's what ultimately start weaning. And again, you're then moving from milk onto food and you're making the body work in a different way again. And I think that can unravel some key, key part. There's all these like natural rhythms and natural timeframes and hormones exactly does their own thing as well. And sometimes we try and rush this kind of business. So I think it was just to be clear that from my point of view, I, if anyone asks me, I say you gotta wait up to three days for milk to kick in. Weighing puppies is important because it is good to be aware of is a puppy losing weight? And why do we think it's losing weight? If you've got a whole litter, all losing weight, it's not nice position to be in as a breeder, but it's one that you're probably gonna be in an. You know, it's a common occurrence, particularly in some breeds. Like I say, Bulldogs just. Just tend to be super slow on milk. I've had a few litters gain, I've had very few litters, but I have had a few litters literally from day one, just gain milk and never look back. But they've always been averaged to smaller, never averaged to larger litter. But I think, yeah, people need to understand the body has processes to go through. Pups have been born, give them up to three days, weigh them daily. If you're getting a whole litter, Weight loss, then you understand why once you get to the third day, then you need to think about, then should we. interject. And if we are going to interject, how might we do that? Cause I don't always believe necessarily you need to supplement feed everybody on all feeds all of the time. Maybe you just want to supplement two puppies per feed because as soon as you take the pups off a mum, you're now not creating the need for her to make milk. Then you're making the chicken and egg situation where...

Isobel: 18:32

It is chicken and egg. It's that feedback loop that I mentioned earlier and you need to be feeding literally the feedback loop. So if you're not putting pups on her, you're kind of just halting that cycle from increasing the hormones.

Sara: 18:46

Exactly that. So you need, that demand needs to be there for her to know she needs to meet that demand and supplement feeding, you're going to. impact that loop. If you take them all off and start supplement feeding everybody, you're going to make your life as a breeder harder in the long term, that's for sure.

Isobel: 19:04

Absolutely, because it is supply and demand and I think it's particularly common after C sections, new and first time mums, if you're bringing home a litter and she's not keen to feed, doesn't understand what's being asked of her, 24 hours, if you begin to. Formula feed. There's nothing to say that she will ever be able to produce that milk if she's not understanding that there's a demand there. So, you literally could end up hand feeding an entire litter by not starting that demand early enough on, you know, On return home really is my opinion on that one.

Sara: 19:39

Totally agree with you, particularly if it's a C section, maybe their final litter. Should we spay the female at the same time as a C section? People are worried that if they spay a female, they're going to impact her milk production because effectively when you're spaying a female, you're removing her ovaries. However, ovaries have very little to do with milk production. My understanding, it is actually the brain. So the pituitary gland in the brain releases prolactin, or there or thereabouts. And that's actually how milk demand is driven. So effectively by whipping out our ovaries on the C section, that shouldn't have an impact. My vet has always sort of countered it saying, no, yeah, that that's 100 percent correct. However, what you are doing is you're removing reproductive tissues at really heightened state. So it's not like they're dormant out of season and everything's, you know, small and tiny and it could be taken out quite easily. He sort of said, You know, you've got extra blood flow because of the parts, because of all the whole pregnancy. And so it's not actually from a milk production point of view, but actually from a general wellbeing and surgery point of view, it's not always the best time to do it. If I was you, I'd leave them. And then once pups are three months old, then have her in and just do a keyhole spay and which is way less invasive and has a way better recovery rate. And I just take out the ovaries on a whole separate occasion. Is there anything you want to add to that, that I've missed?

Isobel: 21:13

I do. Also take the same view that I wouldn't be spaying unless I had to during, during an emergency section or the likes, because every surgery and again, I'm kind of being a little bit hypocritical here, every surgery carries risks. And as you said, when her body is in such a heightened state. A c section shouldn't be taken lightly, especially an emergency one, but it's being done for, for the well being of mom and pops. So to be doing extra surgery at that point, I personally would not be going for a spay unless it was something awful like uterine rupture or something like that, where actually it's in her best interest for her to have an entire spay. So I would also be waiting in that situation, but I understand why people may do that. And that's, you are right that that is. There's milk, the milk production is people's primary concern when that is discussed generally.

Sara: 22:06

So, yeah, a slight side note, I had a female, she had a fine pregnancy up until I think it was like 56 days and then she went downhill quite quickly. Ultimately, it ended up in various trips to the vets and all sorts, but we decided that we needed to C section, I think she was only about 57 days generally, you'd want 59 minimum. So the vet kind of said, I don't think the pups are going to make it, they're not going to be developed enough, said, no, that's fine. It was a female's first litter. So I kind of said, she's the number one in all of this and that should always be the case as a breeder. So we're acting her best interest. If none of the pups make it, that's fine. You know, do what you can. If you don't need to spay her, that would be amazing because obviously she, it was her first litter and I wanted to carry on my bloodline. What I probably didn't appreciate at the time is that obviously when you're C sectioning so early, the pups aren't ready to detach from from the lining there's going to be significant internal bleeding which ultimately means you're probably going to have to spay your bitch because if they're going to bleed out quite a high chance they're going to bleed out because you're taking all these pups away way too early. You know, impacting the tissue and then obviously that's going to react to that. So, and sadly she did have to be spayed at the time of C section and actually she was quite poorly afterwards. So that should keep her in. So it was a whole bit of a nightmare, but in my head, I was sort of like, no, that's fine. She's number one. That's fine. Let's get these pups out. Let's get her good. But I hadn't really understood the reason why she would need to be spayed. I was just thinking, oh yeah, they're going to take the pups out and she'd be fine. We'll go again. But obviously, yeah. When you're C sectioning early. you're most likely going to have a spay if it's that early, if you're still in the early 50s days of gestation because you can't have that kind of surgery and not have some repercussions from it. It's almost life saving at that point while you're going in that early. So yeah, so that was just sort of an extra different angle not necessarily to do with milk production. Yeah, spaying and the impacts it can have on a female. What else do we need to talk about?

Isobel: 24:10

We have quite strongly stated that actually milk productions supply demand. And if you're providing the substantial demand, you'll have the supply, but unfortunately nature doesn't always read the textbook and there will always be times that you will be faced with a bitch that can't, or just isn't producing enough milk for whatever reason that might be. And it does happen. And yeah. When it does happen, it needs to be acted on quickly because at the end of the day, if those puppies aren't of weaning age, the best thing for them to be having is mum's milk, otherwise you will be supplement feeding. So there are things that you can do to help mum's milk production increase. It's not a, if the pups are all failing and mum isn't producing milk, that it's a be all and end all. You don't necessarily have to jump straight to formula feeding. There are things that you can consider. Have you had this problem yourself, Sara? Have you ever had a bitch that's failed to produce enough milk?

Sara: 24:59

I have, yes. I've always been the classic just supplement feed, try and manage it as much as possible. Dan's food is really important when it comes to good milk production and likewise having fresh water available. I think diet is a really important one and if I hear people struggling sometimes with milk production, it might be that they've not changed the diet appropriate. For her to be weaning pups, they still kept her on quite a basic maintenance food. I generally find with my bulldogs, I do well with mine with the food that they get. I just find like the bulldogs just tend to be like this lower level when it comes to quality of milk that they pass on. Very rarely do I see a poorly conditioned Bulldog where I would frequently see out, well not body condition, like out conditioned Labrador, where almost the lab mum goes, no, yeah, this, I've eaten it and I've given it all to the babies, all to the babies. So they actually stripped their own condition, but I don't know with the bulldogs, they still be. They're like, nah, I'm okay. The pups can get on, get on with it a bit. So I don't know. It'd be interesting to know, like, if different breeds have like this different pass over rate and maybe that is to do with the hormone, how motherly they are or not. I mean, if you've been through a C section and this, that, and whatever, yeah, well, you'd be thinking, Oh, I love these pups. So we'd be thinking, Oh, you're putting me through this unnecessary stress. But yeah, so I think diet plays a key role into the quality of milk that's passed on along with caveat the breed.

Isobel: 26:33

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And that's a really interesting thing to mention because you can do things to mitigate poor milk supply before you even start, which is what you're essentially saying there with diet. So what in particular do you do to make sure your bulldogs, bearing in mind, you said that the last city you had was a C section. In that situation, you bring your girl home from a section. What are you doing at that point to make sure that she's set up and hopefully you're not going to have problems in milk production.

Sara: 27:00

Diet wise, they're on a high quality food and I increase the amount that they're eating. I do supplements, a general multivitamin supplement anyway. From week seven onwards, I actually put mine onto a complete raw. They maintain that appetite. I think that's probably a question I get asked a lot is a lot of females will go off their food. So then how do you even maintain their current. level of eating and, and calorie intake when they're actually going off their food to, to prepare them for when the pups are born and milk production. So I've always found, I'd always switched mine on to more of a raw heavy diet and they maintained their appetite, which I think is solves one huge problem before you even sort of get out the door, if that makes sense.

Isobel: 27:46

I agree. I think diets massive. I'd say that is the most important thing you can do to mitigate the risk of poor milk supply is a good quality diet. Think how many calories a day. I'm sure there's a statistic out there. I just don't have it to hand as to actually how many calories a mother needs to intake a day to be able to produce milk. It would be astronomical. It would be a very, very large amount. When my girls, well, they essentially free feed. I'm not restricting the amount of food that they're going to eat. I will bring them. four, five, six meals round the clock of a good quality, raw, balanced diet so that they are essentially eating as much as they want at any point. I think that's another thing I see quite often is people saying, oh, my girl's gone off her food and you ask them, oh, well, how are you feeding her? You know, where's her bowl? What, what are you feeding her? They're sort of like, oh, the bowl's outside the whelping pen with her usual food in and she's not eating. And that's not really, that's Helping her at all. You need to be putting that food inside her whelping pen, hand feeding her if you need to, and making that food more tasty if you need to, because if she's not getting the calories, how on earth is she meant to produce this, well, colostrum in the first instance that's absolutely fortified with nutrients and then milk as well. So I introduce bone broth at any point during pregnancy personally, particularly in the final weeks when mum's 70 percent water and is far tastier for them than a bowl of water in their whelping pen that they're not even going to want in there. Anyway, and it smells amazing. Obviously it's got all the meat juices and everything like that. And, and it's probably one of the tastiest things your dog has probably ever eaten. So to be able to introduce that, that 70 percent water at a time when milk is made from water is my secret weapon.

Sara: 29:29

To be honest, I'm asked a lot about females going off their food, like on the final two weeks of pregnancy, I asked the people and it's typically if they're kibble feeding and obviously if you're feeding kibble, they're going to eat the food, then it's going to sweat up in their stomach and it just makes them feel really uncomfortable to the point where they're not going to want to eat because they just don't want to feel that uncomfortable. So I always say to people like pre soak the food before they eat it and mix in something nice. If you know, that's going to make them eat it. To be fair, I'd never thought about. just mixing in bone broth, because that would be a game changer, wouldn't it, in itself?

Isobel: 30:01

Absolutely, yeah. And I mean, you could if you're an adamant kibble feeder, which is fine, or cold pressed or something like that, you could soak, you could literally soak the kibble in bone broth if you needed to, to make more of a mush and things like that. But yeah, as I said in another podcast, I literally have a stockpot of bone broth going all the time. I'll make sure there's an Unlimited supply. My kitchen stinks, but so be it. It's one of those that it's, when I say it is a, it's game changing for milk production. It really is.

Sara: 30:31

Nowadays you can buy that, can't you? Like I said, I'm not the person to be. I've seen it online. So in pet shops and whatnot, you can get these items now and make your life easier and keep your bitch in A1 condition. Cause I, I ultimately think if you can keep her in A1 condition all the way through, then. Yeah, you're onto a winner and amazing tips like that of bone broth, soaking food if they're kibble fed. I say, I don't know many dogs that are turned down raw, to be honest. So that's why I've always just switched to raw. So when people say online, Oh, my bitch's milk is really slow and I don't know what to do. I always see people recommending product.

Isobel: 31:09

There's a lot of products out there on the market. Some of which are going to be based on science and some of which are not. There is something literally called. A galactagog is the proper word, and it is anything that increases milk supply. Women use it. It can be anything from a medicine to a herbal, and again, literally anything in between. It doesn't, it doesn't mean one specific type of thing that you can take. As we mentioned earlier, oxytocin, that is a type of galactagog. There are other brands of medicine on the market that vets will often prescribe for a lack of milk production. But obviously, as with anything, if you're putting a medicine inside mum's body, when she is trying to produce milk and sustain milk flow, there are risks of not all medicines, but some medicines can obviously pass through that milk. So I am very much the kind of person that at any opportunity If I can do something naturally to improve mum's milk supply that is not going to pass through the milk to a very vulnerable puppy, then I will. The most readily available, tried and tested, and also widely accepted galactagogue that is available, that is safe is fenugreek. And it is something that women have literally been using for decades, if not centuries with great, great results. At the day, we are all mammals and milk production is a very similarly hormone driven cycle in most mammals. And fenugreek's an option that it basically stimulates the hormone precursors that are needed to lead to a greater milk supply. So that's why it works in humans. That's why it works in dogs. Obviously, you know, every individual is different, same as us humans dogs and everything in between. So some dogs will, you know, Have a fantastic result on fenugreek, even from the first couple of, if not the first supplementation on it. Some dogs will take a little bit longer, a couple of days or whatever to see a benefit. I personally won't have a litter on the way without having fenugreek in my cupboard because it's one of those, if you are struggling for milk production, by the time you notice it, You'll notice it because you've done the puppy weigh ins, which is 24 hours potentially after the puppy weigh ins before, which means you could have had a declining milk supply for an entire 24 hours before you realise. You then check, realise mum's milk production's a little bit low. You then go on Amazon or wherever else you might try and find urgent supplements. And by the time you've got something delivered, you're a couple of days in, which is It's too slow. So, for me, it's a, it's such a simple, safe, natural thing to have in the cupboard. I wouldn't be without it. It can be really easy to give. You don't have to go down the route of big chunky tablets that are difficult to get in your girl's mouth or anything like that. The Fenugreek that I've developed myself the, the brand that I, that I obviously have produced, it's so simple. You literally pull the capsule apart and it releases. A fenugreek powder, you can mix that into bone broth, you can mix that into food, you can do, you know, whatever you need to do to get it in your girl, because I think a lot of times, you know, again, if a girl's off her food, which is generally the case, if she's not, if she's not producing much milk you know, you have got to be creative with the ways that you, you can get these beneficial things into them. So a fenugreek powder in particular is just dead useful, very, very easy to supplement with.

Sara: 34:28

Post C section, like they're always going to be a bit more groggy and they're not going to want to eat as quickly anyway. So that, that puts you behind the curve even more being able just to be able to mix it in with something, syringe it in their mouth and like some bone broth off you go, at least, you know, the cogs are turning and you're actively doing something to improve the situation.

Isobel: 34:49

On the odd occasion, again, I've got miniature dachshunds, so for me, it's not a breed where elective sections or anything like that happens at all. We're generally all self whelpers unless something goes wrong. But if I do have a girl that unfortunately needs an emergency section, I will be giving Benegreek from from the off really, as soon as she's home and settled and eating. It's about proactively managing situations and if you can think, okay, we already know, like you said, behind the curve, she's not going to be eating. She won't have released the same hormones necessarily if she's not whelped that entire litter. If pups are slow to feed or if she's a little bit, you know, Less inclined to let pups feed, as we mentioned before, the actual sensation of pups feeding and pulling down the milk all helps the cycle. So, if she's already behind the curve, you need to stack odds back in her favour. So I'm a big fan of proactive supplementation with fenugreek, if it's from a sensible source. The last thing you want to be doing is buying some sort of fenugreek supplement that's laden with wonderful fillers or something like that, that actually, if you're pumping it into her, you could be doing more harm than good.

Sara: 35:51

Yeah, you need to know it's good quality. You just, you just saying that, it makes me wonder, With the bulldogs or something? Well, mainly the dogs, newborn puppy noise. All that is squeaking. Yeah. And I said to you, my Labradors, I went, wow, these squeak. They didn't shut up squeaking. They were so loud when they were born. It was unbelievable. And obviously I know that is a trigger for mums kicks in the oxytocin, milk production, all that kind of thing. And now you're making me wonder whether breeds that are put in incubators and puppy boxes, because that sound is muffled, they're still making the noises, not necessarily as loud as, as the labs that I had, because that sounds muffled that mum isn't hearing that sound. And again, that's also impacting her milk production. So now you've got me thinking, maybe I should have recorded the squeaky puppies and actually played that.

Isobel: 36:43

It could be worth trying because if you think again, my breed being lightweight and everything like that, they have free access to pups. So for me, my girls will always be in, in the whelping box with the pups. So when they're squeaking, she's her head's what maximum centimeters literally away from that squeaking puppy or that litter of squeaking puppies. So she's having constant. mental stimulation. It's all stimulated by the brain. So the brain is what, when we hear something, it's our auditory nerves in our ears that go into our brain for that sound to be processed, which all links together, the back gland that then is linked to producing the milk, that will all ties in and it's milk production isn't as simple as we've got puppies, let's produce milk. It's all these things that work in combination. Diet, is she getting enough calories? Is she getting enough water? Is she getting the auditory stimulation that she needs from the squeaking puppies and even the sensory issue being huddled and fed from and things like that. So there's a lot of different factors at play. You've almost got to proactively manage each part and then using galactogogs, if they're natural, natural milk stimulants and that can be fed safely, then I absolutely do proactively use them. Obviously, if a girl then becomes engorged, then that's a different problem to be managing. And then you, you know, you proactively manage that one.

Sara: 38:08

Yeah, well, that's for another day. We've got that for another podcast, haven't we? So yeah. So on that note, should we end it there? Absolutely. Yeah. I hope everyone found it very useful. Yeah, again, as usual, we welcome your feedback. If you leave us a review and put your comments in that we'll be more than happy to pick those up to go forward with it. We'd love to hear your opinions, your experiences, because we believe the more that we share, the more that we learn and I'm coming up with crazy ideas, even as we're doing these podcasts. Please, can you subscribe? Can you share with like minded readers and can you rate and review us?

Isobel: 38:45

And I hope you've learned a lot, even for us every day is a school day. So yeah, I look forward to learning more with you all very soon. See you later.

Sara: 38:52

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