Distressed Dams: Navigating Mastitis in Breeding Dogs

This episode highlights crucial health and hygiene aspects that every breeder should be well-versed in. We explore various factors that can lead to health issues in our beloved canines, from poor hygiene practices to trauma and weak immune systems. Learn to recognise the symptoms that indicate your dog might be in discomfort and understand why pain thresholds vary between breeds.

Discover the often-overlooked hazards puppy nails pose and how simple tools can prevent unnecessary trauma. Find out Sara’s hygiene ‘ick’ and how that may impact nursing puppies.

We answer the question, “Is more milk always better for nursing puppies?” and debunk the misconception that expensive dog food guarantees quality nutrition. We also dive into the role of diet, including the benefits of incorporating vegetables, and consider the unique challenges breeders face in multiple-dog households.

We also unravel the mystery behind cabbage leaves' potential effectiveness in treating mastitis and delve into the complexities of black mastitis, weaning, and the impact of puppy teeth trauma.

Whether you're a seasoned breeder or an enthusiast looking to deepen your understanding of canine health and hygiene, this episode of Breeders Brew is packed with invaluable insights and practical tips to ensure the well-being of your furry companions.

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Transcript

Sara: 0:02

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by myself, Sara, the canine family planner,

Isobel: 0:09

and me, Isobel, the canine nutrition coach.

Sara: 0:12

We're promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods for owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom.

Isobel: 0:21

Thanks for joining us. And in this episode, we will be having an in depth discussion about All things mastitis in dogs. What is it? What causes it? How to prevent it? How to treat it? And we'll go over the most important things, which are symptoms, sort of husbandry practices, highlighting the importance of diet, trauma prevention, milk management, treatments, and really try and deep dive on the topic.

Sara: 0:46

Isobel, I've got a story to tell you. Have you?

Isobel: 0:49

You'll have to fill me in.

Sara: 0:53

And did you know that Tom Hardy's doing the Easter bedtime story things? No, that's a total separate thing. What is that? Oh yeah, he does the, for the last four years at Easter, he does the bedtime stories. Like the BBC's

Isobel: 1:09

Bedtime stories for who?

Sara: 1:11

Kids!

Isobel: 1:12

Oh, okay.

Sara: 1:14

But that's the whole thing. Everyone's like, hang on, who is this for? Oh my Yeah. So he's done it for the last four years. I guess it's all because he obviously his voice and whatnot, but no, that's not the story that I want to tell you about. The story I want to tell you about is the experience that I've had with mastitis and to make other breeders aware of it and how it can come in all shapes and forms. My experience with mastitis has been minimal, thankfully I've only experienced it once out of, must be nearing 40 litters now, which is a little bit crazy. And everything had been fine, pups were born, though it was a bulldog, pups born by C section, mum doing fine. Usual routine, I think the pups, I can't, precisely remember, but I think the pups are around say 10 days or so, or maybe a week, week to 10 days. And mum was in her bed and I walked past and she was just standing up. And I thought, oh, that's weird. Cause normally either she's laying down, resting. You know, snoozing with the pups, but she was just standing up panting. So that's a bit unusual. Checked her boobs. They felt a little bit warm, but obviously they're going to, because she's got pups and she's feeding pups. An hour later, she's still standing up panting. So I thought, do you know what? I'm going to ring up the vets and see what they say. I think she had a slightly elevated temperature, but not anything to be too concerned about. Phoned up my vets. They said, yeah, bring her in straight away. Took her in. They run blood straight away because basically they wanted to rule out enclampsia. So they were checking her calcium levels. We'll cover that in a whole different podcast. She come back that her blood levels were fine. So my vets. From process of elimination, basically said it's mastitis, but we couldn't see any visually. Her boobs looked fine. We literally couldn't see anything. Gave her a strong course of antibiotics. He advised me, put the pups on as you normally should do. I think they might've given me a mild painkiller if I remember rightly, or they might've done an injectable one just to see until the antibiotics kicked in. Off he went home. By the time I'd got home, the mastitis had, had literally had appeared on her boob. It was actually next to her t and the hole had already started to appear, of which puss was coming out and I, I literally couldn't believe it, to be fair. My bet then was about hour 15 away. But yeah, I was really shocked, like from her being at the vets boobs looking fine to get a home. And then it actually had surfaced, I dunno, maybe where he had manipulated them. He's obviously then like pushed them in a way that the pus has tried to sort of come out that way. The puppies didn't actually want to go on that teat, but they're carried off feeding from all the rest of them and she was fine. We didn't lose any nipples or anything crazy like that. She wasn't significantly unwell. So in the scheme of breeding, I think I've gotten away quite lightly. But that was my little experience with mastitis. So let's unpick that a little bit further and actually find out what mastitis is, how it's triggered. How do we avoid it? Maybe I'm doing some of those things by default. So that's why it hasn't been such a big issue for me. Also how it may different from breeds to breeds as well. Cause I think that's definitely a part to play. Where should we start? What is mastitis?

Isobel: 4:43

Perfect. So mastitis is something that as breeders, as Isobel mentioned there, it's super important we know about. It's one of the very few things that when they go downhill, they can go downhill very quickly. So knowing the warning signs is mega important in my opinion. Mastitis is It is an infection generally in the mammary gland, so like Isobel said with her dog, it's literally in the boob sort of tissue above the teats, where obviously the milk production kind of occurs. There are particular bacterias that generally cause mastitis, but I'm sure like anything it can be caused by more than one thing. It can occur due to either poor hygiene, inadequate cleaning, it can also be caused by trauma, which is something that I think a lot of people don't always consider. Or a weakened immune system, so literally just your girl not feeling tip top. So it isn't always a reflection of poor husbandry, which I think another, is another thing that some people are quite Keen to jump down the throats of breeders if their bitch has, you know, misogynist. It isn't a reflection of how well that bitch is kept by any means. As Isobel said there, her beautiful girl Lacey had it. And I know that she was treated like an absolute princess.

Sara: 5:49

So, of course, she was the queen of the household.

Isobel: 5:53

Absolutely was. So do you want to go with some of the symptoms?

Sara: 5:57

So symptoms of mastitis can include swollen, firm and painful mammary glands, redness and warmth in the infected area. So that's definitely what Lacey showed to me. Discharge from the nipple, which may be bloody, pus like or watery, possible loss of appetite because the female has an infection, depression, tiredness and possibly So that's just some high level symptoms. My vets, they basically knew that she was a mum with puppies, and because there was no visual sign of mastitis, that to them, yeah, it could be enclampsia, it could be mastitis. So I think they did really well just to go, do you know what, let's just run some bloods and rule out one of those things quite quickly. And they did that job done. You might be able to see something. Otherwise you're going to have to go with behavioral changes. And I think this is sort of an ongoing thread through all of these podcasts is observation of your female is just so key. If you ever get to any point where you go, ah, she's just weird, or she doesn't normally do this, that she's telling you. Something's happening and you need to find out what it is, basically. So if only they could talk and tell us.

Isobel: 7:09

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that was a really key point you hit on there is observation. At the end of the day, much like humans, everyone is got a different pain threshold. Every bitch has a different pain threshold, particularly between different breeds as well. My breed are known for being a little melodramatic and they look like the world is falling over if they are so much as a little bit chilly. So, in comparison to your breed, Isobel, I would imagine they will tell you very little than a quarter of the story. Probably quite stoic, are they not?

Sara: 7:40

What do your dogs weigh? Were they four kilos?

Isobel: 7:42

Four kilos, four and a half kilograms, yeah.

Sara: 7:45

So it's understandable when you're that delicate and dainty that you're going to feel things quite significantly, quite quickly, where My Labrador, I would say she is a total and utter wimp for the size of dog that she is. If you grab her ears too hard, she screams as if like you cut her leg off. So I've known that she's just verbally expresses herself where the, where the bulldogs would literally, they would walk on a broken leg and make out that they're fine. That's why owning bulldogs can be quite dramatic. Because they generally just look like they're fine one minute and then they are dying the next, there is no, they, the, the warning signs that they give you are very little. So yeah, I think you've raised a really key point there that actually knowing your breed and knowing your breed's general pain threshold is important and then also your individual dog's pain threshold within how it sits within the breed, and that's a really good point that you've, you've acknowledged.

Isobel: 8:41

It surely has trained your eye to be far more observant than in other breeds because, for example, if something went wrong with your Labrador, you would know about it very quickly by the sounds of that sort of description of the little ear tug. So I suppose if anything, it's made you able to spot warning signs tenfold better than if you'd had a breed that naturally showed pain and symptoms.

Sara: 9:02

Yeah, yeah, totally. So we know mastitis is bacterial infection can be triggered by numerous ways. So I know we've talked about husbandry. Should we cover that in a little bit more detail as to what you would deem average husbandry, what's good, what's bad, what's not?

Isobel: 9:20

Absolutely, yeah, because I meant, as I mentioned earlier, the sort of causes of mastitis, as I said, some people are very quick to judge if a bitch goes down with mastitis and that shouldn't be the case, because as I mentioned there, it can of course be. For hygiene or an adequate cleaning and that's how the bacteria is entering the mammary gland because essentially that's what it's got to do and able to be able to cause an infection it has to enter the area so that's either doing so by the fact that it's sat on the skin or that area or by trauma and it's entering through a through an open wound on the mammary gland. Or obviously the weakened immune system as well. So absolutely, I think it's worth unpicking the causes of mastitis and how potentially breeders can avoid it by mitigating those risks.

Sara: 10:04

So what would be the most common trauma then? Just as you mentioned trauma. Yeah.

Isobel: 10:08

Yeah. No, I have because I'm very proactive when it comes to avoiding this, this in my breed. Puppy nails. The most common reason for trauma to the mammary gland. It's, if anyone's in any of the Facebook groups, you'll very often see pictures of pups with talon like nails, even from a super young age. And I think, again, it will come down to, obviously, quality of diet that mum's on, quality of her milk, and things like that will obviously also play a part as to quite how quick those puppy nails grow. But if they are long and talon like, they will scratch mum when they're feeding because if you're a breeder and you've seen puppies feed, they literally will paddle on mum's mammary glands to bring that milk down, and in doing so, they've got little knives on the end of their paws, so it's no wonder that mum can get cut in that way. And obviously an open cut on the mammary area is the perfect little way for a bacteria infection to take hold.

Sara: 11:04

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you on that one. I just trim the nails regularly, just baby nail clippers and just. continue, continuously just take the ends off. And to be honest, I think it's never a bad thing to be handling puppies and for them to be, get used to that anyway, sort of that human intervention, probably a bit OTT with the nail clipping. And maybe that's why I haven't had it that often in the scheme of breeding history, just baby nail clippers. You can, you can even buy like the little cheap packs on Amazon where you'll get. Baby scissors, clippers, and something or other for like £3.99. So I can't even say they're expensive. They don't need to be super sharp because you're just gonna, if at worst you just bin them and buy some more, like, not that I'm for, you know, not keeping good items. Yeah, exactly. And, and even still definitely make sure when the pups are collected on their collection day, I trim all their nails. So it's something the new owners don't have to worry about. Initially, and even at eight weeks, they're just, they're still on toenail clippers, but they're just the bigger, the next size up. You get the baby ones that are a bit diddy, then you get normal hand ones, and then you can kind of get these gigantic toenail ones. You can do, use these toenail ones. I reckon until the pups are at least four, four and a half months old.

Isobel: 12:23

We still use them on our miniature dachshunds!

Sara: 12:26

So for your breed, as you say, you can get away with that.

Isobel: 12:28

They don't outgrow them.

Sara: 12:30

And I just think it's just such an easy, a, it's just such an easy problem to solve initially. It has so many other benefits of the puppy being used to being handled, that regular interaction, then getting used to having their paws touched and felt. For me, it's just a really easy problem to solve with a really cheap bit of equipment.

Isobel: 12:55

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think so many people shy away from it because it's such a tiny little puppy in their hands and the nails are so tiny, you know, it is, I'm not taking away from the fact it's fiddly, but practice really does make perfect with something like this and the chances of you going that low on a nail that you're going to cause damage is quite slim because you're going to be, you're naturally going to be cautious when you're trimming them because You know how precious that little life is in front of you anyway, so it's not like you're going to go and gung ho in a bit.

Sara: 13:26

And it's just taking off the ends. You don't need to go and think, right, we're whipping off 30 percent of this nail, just trim it. And you can feel it. You can literally just hook the clip.

Isobel: 13:35

That's exactly what I do.

Sara: 13:37

And then take, take, take, take, and rather take less and then just go back in a couple of days and do a bit more if you need to, then to think, yeah, I need to hack these right back. And then they say, possibly Nick a quick, and then it all comes a bit traumatic to a degree, but not be forceful, but feel comfortable to hold that puppy's paw. And he's not going to move it until you finish. You're just holding, securing that ball to get the job done before you move on to the next one. I think it is a case of practice. Because they are awkward and they do jiggle about a bit and obviously si depending on the size of the puppy. I think I've said on an, on another podcast, like you can, they can take more than what you think basically. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, and I think as part as ENS and that kind of stuff, anyway, it's not bad for a puppy to experience.

Isobel: 14:24

Mild stress.

Sara: 14:25

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I can say it's not trauma, but yeah, mild stress. And then no, they survived after it. Like there was nothing bad that happened. It was just a bit uncomfortable and then everything went fine again.

Isobel: 14:36

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think also a lot of it is learning what equipment works for you. Like Sara mentioned, they're using the baby toenail clippers. I also do use them. It's just something we've always been using. But I have seen other people using a baby nail dremel and it is exactly the same as a normal nail dremel, but obviously much smaller with a much would it be a finer sand grit? I don't know which terminology which around it'd be, but it's a, yeah, and it's on a little sort of round plated wheel that you can just press against the nail and do it that way. But I particularly like the nail clippers.'cause as Isobel said, I, I feel down, literally feel down the nail. You can feel the clippers stop where the hook is and you just nip off the hooks. And yeah, I think there is no such thing as too early in my opinion when it comes to that. I think if the pups have got long hooked nails, the sooner rather than later you're dealing with that, the better, because not only are you minimising the risk of mastitis, but it is Horridly uncomfortable for mum to be covered in scratches in an area that is already going to naturally be heightened sensitivity wise. It's already going to be hot from all of the milk production and everything else and it's having a constant, a lot of sort of interaction. There were always going to be puppies brushing against the mammary area and paddling the mammary area and things like that. So I think from a, even from a compassion perspective of doing your best for mum, I think it's just such a necessity to be on top of those nails.

Sara: 15:59

And to be fair, I'm all for Dremel, like all my adult dogs, I Dremel, Dremel them. So at some point I transition across and I'm sure that's for another day. But again, you have to get puppies used to the sound of a Dremel and not going all guns blazing. Yeah. I'm going to like first time switching this Dremel on, we're going to get all nails, I'd say 10 nails, but no, it's 20. Isn't it? I've only got what was it, four, whatever, dewclaws, non dewclaws, let's not go there. 20, 20 or thereabouts nails done in one sitting. It doesn't happen like that. And I, one of my dogs, as soon as she hears the dremel, she comes running. She absolutely loves it, but more because she thinks I'm going to rub it all over her body because that's what I did to desensitize her to it rather than actually have her nails trimmed. There's different techniques, there's different methods, find what works for you. But starting with nail Clippers is, is a pretty straightforward place to be starting.

Isobel: 16:52

Absolutely. And you're reducing the risk of mastitis by probably a quarter. If you read off that list, trauma was one of the major reasons.

Sara: 16:59

In regards to the husbandry, what would you deem good husbandry that would help you prevent or avoid mastitis?

Isobel: 17:08

So again, this is a massive topic that you can unpick hugely, but in my Top level opinion. I mean, top as in highest level, not, not top level, it's just basic sanitary standards. So I don't expect a female to be covered in mud and in the whelping box, nor do I expect there to be any noticeable debris on any of her mammary areas or teats. I always expect her to be looking clean in, in the whelping box because again, even from the perspective of they are newborn pups that have. hugely compromised immune systems that you've got in the whelping box with her. So I don't like to think of any dirt or debris or bugs or anything in between being dragged in that room, let alone the box. So for me, that is what I consider as a high level overview of, of good husbandry or cleanliness.

Sara: 17:55

Out of interest, do you clean her boobs? And if so, what with? And also, do you do a pre birth? Clean, because I, as you say, you talking about seeing the pictures online of just like these talons of puppy claws, I equally look at teats and just how dirty teats are, and people just letting their pups just, you know suckle straight on dirty teats.

Isobel: 18:22

It blows my mind. It blows my mind because I know a lot of people might be saying, oh, it builds their immune system. No, no. It's probably like a 10 year old child being, when a 10 year old child's meeting bugs. Yeah, great. That probably is building their immune system. But a equatable to a newborn baby. The same way we sterilize newborn babies, bottles and everything like that. We should be having the same standards for our pups.

Sara: 18:46

That's almost like, sorry. That's almost like. Making a cup of tea or making like a kid a squash in a mug that hasn't been cleaned from the local garage or somewhere for like three years and they're going, yeah, this is, you'll be fine. Drink that. Yeah.

Isobel: 19:04

Yeah. I certainly wouldn't want to drink out that. No, I am. So yes. Exactly. So for me, yeah. Mine are smooth coats. So they are very generally wash and wear. However, they do have a pre birth clean because my girls don't tend to like going out for walks, particularly in the early days, once the pups have arrived. So for me, I can do that, that pre whelp clean make sure everyone's clean and tidy before we even go into labour, because again, when mum's Actually, in labour and whelping, obviously it goes without saying that her cervix is dilated and everything else. And again, I don't want there to be germs and rubbish sat in that whelping box when she is so vulnerable. So yeah, I do it for more than one reason. It's not even just for the purpose that she has the pre whelp clean.

Sara: 19:55

So, and what does that consist of?

Isobel: 19:57

I'm probably a little bit overcautious because years ago I was brought up very rarely and we had a lot of wildlife around the house. So our dogs not only did used to get filthy on walks every single day, but also in the garden we were, we had foxes, deer and the likes and everything in between. I have always been in the habit of actually using hibby scrub. So it's a hibiscrub bath before, before she welps. She's, she's all cleaned down. However, obviously I probably I, I lean on the holistic side of things a lot more than other people generally. And hibiscrub is an interesting one for me because it's something that I struggle with from that perspective, because it is not a holistic approach, is a strong topical treatment. And this is where I always say, I would say a balanced view is really important because at the end of the day, yes, I like to minimise my girls exposure to cleaning products, chemicals, everything in between, fleas, wormers. I'm very careful, but life is all about balance. And for me, having a clean and cleanly mum, pre welp and pre pups is actually more important to me than avoiding exposure to a slightly stronger body wash at that point. So it's slightly controversial compared to my, my general starts or things, but that's why, to be honest with you.

Sara: 21:13

It's interesting because I know groomers don't, won't groom pregnant dogs as soon as they know a dog's pregnant. And I take to get that from a Liability insurance point of view, why would you risk yourself, say it happens to that pregnancy or that dog, like you, you don't want the fingers pointed at you. And I don't have dogs that need regular grooming, like I need a groomer to regularly groom them. Thankfully, I'm like short coated. Well, the Labrador, short ish coat. So I could just run brushes through them. Even at my highest active show career, I still only bathed my dogs twice a year. And that was once for Crufts and once for Bulldog of the Year. So I don't necessarily do like a pre whelp. bath, but I am a stickler for, we're going to sit down with some warm, salty water and some cotton balls. And I'm going to go through every single teat and get out every, go literally every nook and cranny, all those little black dots, that's dirt that needs to come out. That's not pigment.

Isobel: 22:16

Sorry. Can you just repeat that once more for those at the back who didn't hear that, please?

Sara: 22:21

For at the back, it's dirt, it's dirty, get it out. And literally you could just pick, I mean, I find it, I must find it quite satisfying because I don't mind doing it. But yeah, just go around each teat, all over the boobs. Just use warm salty water and just pick it all out. It's disgusting. And especially if a female's had a litter before. then I find they're going to be dirtier because they've got more creases in them and more nooks and crannies. And it's an opportunity if you've got a female that's got inverted teats, clean them out, sort of get them popping out in the right direction. Most of the time, once the pup sucks onto those, they can draw them out anyway. Very rarely do they stay fully inverted. But yeah, you can see rings of, oh, it's, it's really, and if I need to cotton bud or q tip and get right in there, but that is something that I definitely do at the thought of just having puppies latch on to dirty teats just gives me the ick of the biggest level and equally if they're c section. I do it all over again because I just don't know what they've been laying in their bedding, if they've laid on the floor there or, or any of that kind of stuff. And so it makes me wonder, bulldog puppy feeds are managed. Very rarely will bulldog breeders leave their pups unattended with their mum. So they are very consciously getting them out the puppy box, latching them on. Watching them, taking them off, putting them back. Boob management is a lot more apparent where with my Labrador, cause she was such a good mum, I could just sort of leave her with them to get on with pups. Ultimately what that meant was I wasn't regularly actually looking at her boobs because she was just in there doing what she needed to do with my bulldogs. I rotate them. So I make sure one feed heads, one end next feet, the heads, the other end. So all the boobs get used. All of the time where if you've got a female happily in a well pinned bed or pen and, but she likes to lay one particular way, then again, that makes you think, is that more chance of mastitis because the milk's not flowing through all the teats as they should be. And if you get build up on one side, is that then going to start causing a bigger problem of engorgement? It could that then go on to then trigger. infections or uncomfortableness at least. So I think, yeah, there's a few little differences between breeds that naturally cause you to manage it a different way.

Isobel: 24:51

I must say that is part of the routine that we go through. So the hib, I should have been a bit clearer actually with my sort of routine. The Hibi scrub for me is predominantly feet. I didn't make it very clear. That I don't do whole body hippie scrub, which actually probably didn't come across very clearly at all. Bearing in mind I called it a Hibi scrub bath. For me, it's, it's, it's feet and sort of legs, partial legs that I do with the hippie scrub and then the rest of the routine sounds incredibly similar to yours, which is. Really, really fastidious. I think that's the right way to use the word. Cleaning of the mammary areas because yeah, especially with my breed being so low to ground. Literally, their mammary areas are filthy. Obviously when it's a non breeding bitch, you don't have to worry too much. As I said, my breed is generally sort of a A rub down with a towel and back in the house, job done, but you don't realise quite how filthy they get until you're really looking at it and when you do look at it, it's quite horrifying. So, again, I think that's just such an easy thing you can do, you know, you don't have to do it once the pups have arrived and it's a big panic, get organised and do it beforehand and save yourself the stress. But you did go off on a really lovely tangent there, I think, Isobel, about, a little bit more about milk management, if that's what you want to call it. Yeah, I'm very fortunate that my breeds are Generally Touchwood, fabulous mums. So they have free access to pups, obviously supervised 24 seven first couple of weeks, but because of that, generally my breed will sort of take, take a lead on, on sort of feed management, which pups get which teats, obviously step in as needed based on pup by pup basis. But I think you'll have an awful lot to add on particularly bull breeds. And I know you mentioned in another podcast that, you know, you have experience of certain breeds seeming to be more engorged with milk in the first place, which is also something that you need to manage particularly more carefully.

Sara: 26:39

Yeah, definitely. I'm going to skip back very quickly. I don't walk my dogs once they've got pups. I know I, and I get asked this a lot actually, people are, Oh, should I still exercise there? Should I not? And I'm a person that doesn't. Honestly, she doesn't go for a walk for the next two and a half, three weeks. She will still survive. And also I think you can exacerbate condition stripping by exercising your dog, because not only does she now need to eat enough calories for her and for the parks, but now also to be exercising as well. So I'm a strict, no exercise type of person. So hence I never worry about. feet too much in and out. However, with that said, I have had an, annoyingly, it was a bulldog, that day three of the pup, she was like, so when are we going out then? What do you mean? She's like, yes, when are we going? And I had to walk her. She, she just wouldn't settle. She wasn't content. And I thought, Like it's not worth the, it's not worth the fight. Like she wants to go for a little short walk, take her for a short walk. Typically bull breeds are road walked anyway. So they're not off lead and that kind of stuff, but it was a logistical nightmare in regards to, had to then come back, had to clean her boobs, had to clean her legs, had to clean her feet. And she sat the hibi scrubber down, had to let that then all dry. Before she could then go in with the pups, that was more hassle than it was worth, but I had to do that for her sanity, most certainly not for mine, and I preferably would never do that with a female. I would never actively encourage that kind of behavior. I'd kind of like, no, you be at home and be a mum, that's all you need to do.

Isobel: 28:18

I completely agree. I have exactly, I have exactly the same. There's no point in me adding a lot more because my mentality is exactly the same. And at the end of the day, you're very similar to me where when you've got pups, it's 24 seven surveillance when mum's with them anyway. So in which case mum's generally happy to be wherever we are or I am. And probably same with you, with your dogs. It's very rare that I've got a girl that wants to go out when she's got a new litter on the ground and normally a nice little sniffy walk around the garden does the trick, or see if it's a bit warmer. Out for sessions in the garden for a quick sunbathe. And I don't generally need to do much more than that at all. As I said, it's similar to you. I've got a girl that is literally climbing the walls and that's. a different situation. I am no dog trainer, but there are certainly things you can be doing to mentally stimulate a girl as well nowadays with the access to such fairly priced stimulation toys and puzzles and, and Kongs and things like that that are available on the market. I would, if you know, you've got high energy breed. I would be looking at trying those things before getting out the dog lead, that's for certain.

Sara: 29:23

Most females are just quite content just for some time away from the pups. I'm all for, if they want to come out the pen, they come out the pen. If they want to go and sunbathe for three hours in between feeds, I'm fine with that. They need to be happy and content. And so I'm not a person to be, as you say, locking them in a, in a, in the whelping box, because that's their job for the next three weeks. It's all very much loosened and fluid. And say, yeah, there's tons of other things you could be doing with the dogs rather than running the legs off of them. I just don't think it's, yeah, it can't be comfortable with. mummery boobs clapping here. They're in there.

Isobel: 29:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Sara: 30:03

I had it once with I was walking a bulldog and she was a red pied. So she's mainly white with all these splotches of red on her. And this little boy opposite the row on the opposite side of the road said, look, mom, there's a cow. Look at her udders. I was like, yes, she does look very cow. She does look very cow like. Bless her. Sorry, skipping forward again to what you were leading on to. Most definitely milk production varies between breeds. French Bulldogs, I don't know for whatever reason, when their milk kicks in, it literally comes out of every hole possible that they have on them. I don't know why such a small dog just has such huge milk production. Sometimes it can be a curse because then you're worried about puppies aspirating, super greedy puppies. aspirate and even more, and then you get super fat pups. So then they don't necessarily stand up and walk when they should be walking and, and all this kind of stuff. So it's not a case of the more milk, the better. It still has to be managed. I find bulldogs generally their milk production is lower or the quality of it's just a bit ropey. Like, and it doesn't matter how they're fed. It just. Seems to be, like I said, I think they just go, no, I'm keeping all those calories. Thank you very much. And whatever reason they just don't pass much on or as much as they could do onto the puppies. And obviously I'm talking in general terms, there'd be some great bulldog moms out there. And I'm sure there's French bulldogs that haven't produced great milk and everything came between. It brings me onto how diet is really important for milk production, milk management and also preventing mastitis.

Isobel: 31:48

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, it's a massive topic for discussion. I could talk the hind legs off a donkey on this one. Why don't you then? I'm not sure if I want to hear quite how much I have to say. Diet is mega important. Too many breeders are. too quick to say, but my girl's thriving, rather than actually looking at what more they could be doing, because yeah, your girl might look to be thriving, but actually there's so much more to, to her bodily functions than what you can see, which is presumably just waste and potentially sort of skin, fur, condition. Even then, if you've got no comparison of a dog that is truly thriving compared to potentially what your bitch looks like, I isn't necessarily the wisest. What is the best way of judging that one? So I think if you've ever got a pregnant bitch and you are preparing for a litter, having a look at her diet and nutritional intake is hugely important because as we said, one of the biggest reasons for mastitis, one of the causes is a weakened immune system. And if a bitch is being fed on the equivalent of McDonald's, sorry McDonald's, but if she is constantly being fed McDonald's or the equivalent of day in day out, naturally you are not feeding her body with immune boosting. Vitamins and nutrients. So if you are feeding her a lovely, fresh, well rounded diet, naturally, her immune system is going to be an awful lot stronger. So naturally you will minimise the risk of mastitis, which isn't something that people generally think about. It's one of those things that has an awful lot of benefits. It's not just. condition a girl keeps on or the quality of milk or this, that and the other, you literally can reduce the risk of massive things like this going wrong purely by feeding her a decent food.

Sara: 33:25

And I think some people just accept that their female will lose condition while she has pups. Like they're just like, Oh, well, of course she's going to do that. They don't have to at all. You can have a female in amazing condition, still rear a big litter. or a difficult litter or challenging litter and still be really good condition. And as you say, it's a case of what you put in is what comes out almost. It's a hard one diet because a lot of people think that a good diet is because they spent a lot of money and that's not necessarily the case. We know that there's many food manufacturers that just are really good at marketing.

Isobel: 34:03

I was going to say they've got some of the literally the best marketing teams in the world.

Sara: 34:08

Yeah. Industry. Yeah. Some pretty labels and some clever adverts and some, yeah, clever marketing makes you believe that that's the best food and it doesn't necessarily mean it. So, I mean, obviously there are brands that have specific mum and baby food, which I don't think it's a bad thing. Cause I think that's a good way to help educate people that something should change.

Isobel: 34:34

Yes, that's true. I've never thought about it in such a positive light before. Yeah, that is a really good, that's a really good point.

Sara: 34:43

Because you think, well, if that food does exist and maybe I should be doing something different because my dog's going to be a mom or she's going to have babies, whether that in itself is the best food and all the rest of it is open to discussion. So I don't feel there's a bad thing of highlighting a life stage that a dog is going through and thinking, okay, what do I need to do to adjust the diet of this dog for this particular reason? And it's no different to athletes, no different to bodybuilders. Like there's so many entities of life where people change food. But generally they've grown and they are what they are. We should just be feeding them a maintenance food that's perfect for them and your lifestyle. But obviously that's a maintenance that's to keep her in a certain condition. And now she is pregnant. What do we do different? And I get asked a lot of the time, like obviously from ultrasound pregnancy scanning. What should we do now? Like, what do I do next? And like my general rule of thumb, because it's what's widely accepted by most people and that's what they can manage to do. Depending on what they're already on. That's a hard thing because some people will be feeding substandard food, but if they're already on a good food, well, you don't need to do too much until she's seven weeks pregnant. And then either put her onto the puppy version, because then you're increasing the quality without increasing the quantity. And then from. every week onwards, 10 percent increase up until, which is only going to be like two weeks. And then once pups are born, we've already talked, she can free feed. Are there specific dietary things that you should be looking out for when your female is pregnant?

Isobel: 36:20

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's an awful lot you can be doing. And I think it's a good, it's a great topic to bring up because I think a lot of people are like you said, whether or not it's because these food brands bringing out specific foods for life stages, it's kind of jogging everyone, but it's something that's being talked about a lot more. And it does seem to be one of the, it makes up the largest sort of coaching clients I take is, is exactly that. It's breeders that have got due to be mums or confirmed pregnant mums, and they are wanting to overhaul the diet and they don't understand what they should be feeding when, and it's no wonder that they are the larger proportion of my book. My coaching clients because it is a minefield and I don't feel like these food brands are necessarily making it easy for people to understand. Either they kind of leave you to your own devices or there's some woolly information on the internet and everything in between. So yes, there are things you can be adding. I think the most easy thing that I could say here to be adding to a girl's diet is if she is on a kibble or biscuit brand, if you don't want to change the brands that she is on, something as simple as adding in fresh vegetables will have an impact because if she is on extruded food, which is something that has been sort of high pressurised and made into a biscuit, there is going to be very little fresh nutrients in that. And there are very few dogs. That will have a problem eating fresh vegetables, which is why I say it, because I could very easily say to you, go out and start adding some lovely meats and things like that onto food. But obviously if your girl is not already used to either raw meats or certain types of meat or fish and things like that, and you start adding it right at the end of pregnancy, when she is potentially off her, you know, off her Food or feeling a bit uncomfortable anyway, it may not be the most sensible thing unless you're working with someone that can sort of guide you through it really. But fresh veg is a really simple change. And bone broth. I know I've said it in another, another podcast already, and I'm sure there's gonna be many more episodes I mentioned it in, but it's an absolute secret weapon and I don't know why it's not one more widely accepted.

Sara: 38:21

Well, now I'm sharing the word about it because I already recommended it to somebody today which I never would have normally have said so.

Isobel: 38:28

There's going to be no hiding with this secret bone broth recipe of mine, is there? I'm going to be hounded for this secret recipe before long. I'm going to end up having to share it.

Sara: 38:38

Isobel's secret recipe by KFC in their chicken.

Isobel: 38:41

I'm not sure it's quite as tasty, but you know.

Sara: 38:45

Well, I bet the dogs think it is.

Isobel: 38:47

Yeah, that's true.

Sara: 38:49

Just to add to your vegetable recommendation is that it contains choline and apparently choline reduces the stickiness of milk. It prevents blocked ducts that could then trigger into mastitis, doesn't it? Yep. Not only are you improving the quality of her food for her immune system, but also it has other benefits. Benefits, such as reducing the, the sticky clottiness of the, of, of the milk. I just know some breeders that, that always have mastitis and they can't work out why. And it wouldn't surprise me if it comes down to diet and something like this, just that they're lying there because it's clean and tidy. They're cleaning boobs, they're trimming nails. Like they get, they're almost getting on fanatical about why am I. keep having this problem. And I think it could be something like this, that just hereditary, their females are just producing this stickier form of milk. And actually if they change the diet to try and reduce that, that's going to help them prevent the chances of, of mastitis.

Isobel: 39:59

Yeah, absolutely. And this is what we were saying earlier about every girl's different and milk production is, yeah, it's, it's a beast in itself and every girl will produce a different quality of milk. And that's why it's not necessarily poor husbandry of a bitch that, that equates to mastitis. It can be something as unfortunate as the milk that she is producing. It's just be more prone to getting a bit of a blockage or something like that. So no wonder that, that people do find this such a scary. Point of, of pregnancy and how to do it right, because there is no right, there's no one right for all girls.

Sara: 40:34

Diet can have a huge impact that, as you say, is often overlooked. And it isn't the case of more expensive is better. It's knowing what works for your female. And that's the problem with multiple dog households. It's always nice if everyone could be on the same food, but generally it's just not possible because every single dog has their own individual requirements. You've got a stud dog. They're going to need extra this. You've got female. That you're breeding. You need this. You've got a female that's been spayed. She's gaining weight. Like there's nobody's tomorrow. She needs a low calorie, low protein. The more dogs you have, the likelihood of being able just to go, they're all on this food or they feed. Or I only feed this brand or I only feed this way. Like I say to people, I flip between everything. I like to think that if I feed raw, I feed the best raw for my dogs. If I feed kibble, it's the best kibble for my dog. If I feed cold press, it's best cold press. And so I have no alliance to the, the method. It's actually, as long as whatever one I feed in, it's the right one for that dog. Then that's the right route to go and I regularly switch it. If I can, I have my adults on cold press or kibble. However, my pups are all fed. If I've got a pregnant bitch, I'm switching her back to raw. So I'm, I literally have no allegiance to any of them. I think they all have the right place at the right time for me and how I run my setup. Who knows, maybe that feeds into. why I haven't had historically any significant mastitis issues, though I'm still working on the milk production thing with the bulldog. So let's see, I haven't answered it all yet.

Isobel: 42:10

No, but it is, you're right. It's about the right, the right thing for the right dog at the right time. And that's why I've got a giant dog freezer that's far bigger than our human food freezer. Because like you said, when you've got different dogs at different times, they do need different things. And yeah, My kitchen supplement rack is looking quite laughable at the moment because again, everyone's on different things for the different, different times and different life stages. So yeah, it's, it's not, it shouldn't be as simple as just pouring out the same food day in day out that you would as a maintenance food. Absolutely. But yeah, there's, is there anything else that you do? I tell you what you do do, and I, I've asked you this before because it's, it's interesting with having a breed that doesn't have free access to the pups, you therefore have the ability to manage feeds to what I would consider as an unbelievable it's basically, you can just tone and tweak every feed to what's right for that bitch and that puppy. What would you consider something you do that makes a big difference to you minimising mastitis? What's the one, if there's one thing that you do that you might overlook because of the levels to which you can control feeds, whereas to someone like me that has bitches that free feed pups. I'm not in monitor, obviously I'm in monitoring, but I'm not literally, I can't tell you necessarily when that one particular part last fed and to how many minutes it was on. And so in between feeds, there's also things you probably do or before feeds that you have an extra ability to sort of, to manage proactively.

Sara: 43:36

Yeah, I think it's worth. letting the audience know that generally, bulldog breeders, you are feeding the pups every two hours for the first two weeks of their life. So, and that's night and day. In regards to mastitis, my, my, True answer is I rotate them. And I think that is that all the milk bars used all of the time at a consistent level, regardless. And so I literally have a bulldog clip and I clip it onto the bedding, whatever end their head needs to be. I put that clip at that end and then after the feed, I move it across. Cause I can't remember after a while. We all know it, you get puppy brain and you can't remember one feed from another. So I have to have the clip to remind me, heads this end, heads that end. And also, if I was sharing the feeding with anyone, I should be so lucky that they would know what ends the head needs to go to on the next feed. So I think probably that's all I can think that I am a bit. Obsessive about that. I didn't do with my Labrador litter because she was just so content on doing it. I did observe her laying both ways probably was 75 percent one way and 25 percent the other rather than bulldogs. It is a strict 50 50 you get rotated all the time. So I think that is probably my number one killer. Mastitis preventing tips. Don't quote me on that.

Isobel: 45:00

Yeah, well it makes sense because you're never letting one teat become overly engorged, are you? If that teat is being used the same number of times on the same cycle every X number of hours, that teat's naturally going to produce the right amount of milk for that one puppy that's going to be on there that often. So it makes sense what you're saying.

Sara: 45:16

And they are all definitely used because you're putting the right puppy on the right teat for the right reason. So where, when they're just in the little, in the little box puppy, a whelping pen, they will find whatever one they're happy with. And very rarely you're going to pull one off and put them on a different tee. If they're all just latched on, you're going to leave them be where, yeah, you can be, it's like a game of chess that you think, no, the big one, that one always starts getting bubbles out of his nose. So I'm going to put that him on a harder tee. So then he's actually. pulling, making that teat work better, where originally it would have only ever been the small one that went on the small teat because they're not strong enough to fight any of the others to push them off. So yeah, I think rotation, not crop rotation, teat rotation.

Isobel: 46:04

No, that's a very valid point. Very valid point. Indeed. Be interesting actually. Not that we have access to those rates, but seeing, seeing if the rate of mastitis is higher in bitches that free feed in the welcome box than bitches that have supervised regular feeding with puppies. Because like you said, if, if breeders are naturally doing this puppy rotation, you would expect rates of mastitis to be, to be lower in those bitches.

Sara: 46:29

I think it'd be hard to know because I think it's based on so, like you said, so many other variables. Again, I'm a person, I don't like a hot room. So booths don't tend to get hot and sweaty. And I'm sure if you're got a heat lamp, she's getting hotter, then you're raising the body temperature, they're more sweaty. So then now you've got sweat, which is going to accumulate bacteria. So I think sometimes it's just those minor details of how you run a household, which is why I like puppies in a incubator, because you just heat their little room that they're in. You don't have to heat the whole house. I'm a sort of, well, as we know, I didn't have central heating until very recently, but I'm a put a jumper on kind of person, then whack up the Central heating anyway, because I find the dogs drop their hair and all that kind of stuff. So I think sometimes the level, it's those level of details of literally, and that could change from whatever house you're in to whatever breed you have. Like I said, the Labradors, they don't like being hot and bothered. Like by default she's sitting in the shade. So. And I think I said this previously, my lab pups, they would, their temperatures were dialed down so much quicker than I ever would with the bulldogs. They were getting all hot and they didn't like the central heat and being on, so I had to turn the radiators off in the room that they were in, where the bulldogs would have loved it all day long. They're like, Cozy out, like roast me, basically, they say, so I think it'd be hard because I think it is all those tiny bits of detail that make all the difference. Is it more likely if you've got a heat lamp, you're going to get mastitis? Who knows?

Isobel: 48:07

Yeah. It's like you said, it's interesting because there's so much to unpick in this topic. It's unbelievable, really.

Sara: 48:13

So what we haven't covered, Isobel, is what the treatments are for mastitis. There are a lot of treatments for mastitis.

Isobel: 48:24

As you said at the beginning with your girl Lacey, it can just be general unwellness. So if you notice your girl is just being a bit funny, and you happen to check the teat area and it's hot or a little bit hard or anything like that, and you pick up on it very early, then your treatment is going to be somewhat different to waiting until your girl has a raging temperature, she's panting, You know, and showing real signs of disorientation and unwellness. Hopefully you do catch it in the early stages. Absolutely. And you're one of the lucky ones. The chances are you might call, I am not a vet. I'll put out here. The chances are you will call your vets and have a very similar conversation to what I had with my vets when we had my situs for the first and only time, a couple of years ago. And our vet said to us, we sort of discussed the symptoms that our girl was showing and they said, I would like you to use cabbage leaves, please, because you caught it early enough that we can go down the natural route, obviously using cabbage leaves very, very quickly, giving it a go in the first couple of hours, and if no improvement, then going down the route of medical intervention. And please say the cabbage leaves did work, and it was a litter that I had had with me. My in combination with my mum, my mum was very happy to go full in, straight down the route of, of medical intervention and antibiotics straight away. And was not very happy with the vet suggesting cabbage leaves because my mum understandably wanted it nipped in the bud, however, cabbage leaves worked for us. Obviously, under direction from your vet because when you get mastitis, it can, it can go south. very, very quickly. So I wouldn't recommend if you've managed to diagnose your girl yourself with mastitis that you, you mess around with cabbage leaves, unless your vet's told you to, but for us, it was, it was essentially using cabbage leaves as a compress.

Sara: 50:04

Yeah. Well, I had to look this out, the whole cabbage, the cabbage. Yeah. I had to look up the cabbage leaves business. I would be no good at this because. I don't like cabbage. So unless, unless the petrol station down the road has it in that I could walk there and pick some up, this is never happening for me. I didn't even know what the thing was about cabbage leaves. So as you say, acts as a compress. Okay. I totally get that. Obviously they have a natural cooling effect. Okay. That's good. So it reduces swelling, inflammation, relieves pain and discomfort. I totally get that. Apparently they can have an anti inflammatory property. So some compounds found in cabbage leaves may have a mild anti inflammatory effect. Yeah, that makes sense. There you go. An absorbent property, so cabbage leaves can absorb excess moisture from the skin. So alleviate problems such as engorgement and leaking associated with mastitis.

Isobel: 50:58

It's literally been something that's been used by humans for decades, if not centuries. because it works. But again, it's one of those things that it's all well and good using it. But if mastitis at the end of the day, it's a bacterial infection. So if it's in, and it's taken a hold of that mammary area, mammary area, I'm all for holistic. Anyone that already is aware of me as the canine nutrition coach, I will always favor a holistic solution to a problem. However, It's an infection you're dealing with and if it's taken hold, personally, I will not be messing around. I'm not the world's biggest fan of antibiotics, but this is the exact reason in which I will go down the route of antibiotics if my girl needs them. Because yeah, what's, what's your opinion, Sara? Are you any, are you any different to myself?

Sara: 51:43

Well, she's saying the cabbage leaves. It was, it was good to work out whether we were myth busting or not. And it's not a myth. It works. So it's funny. Yeah. Because naturally it does sound, it does. It does really sound like one of those things that you think must be a myth. And as I said, when, when we were told to do it by the vet, we were really, can this really work quickly enough to relieve our girl in this level of discomfort. But yeah, it did. So along with pups feeding and pulling down the sort of swelling of milk that was going on there. For my experience, it was a case of antibiotics and pain management also needed, but equally recovery time was super quick. She bounced back, we carried on as usual. Pups weren't seemingly impacted by the antibiotics. I know that's, that's always open for discussion. We saw the problem, we fixed it and we continued, which was, was good. I think we should just mention about. Black mastitis.

Isobel: 52:34

Yes. That was going to be my next point is what we're saying here is all well and good about this. Oh, depending on what level of mastitis you catch depends on the treatment. And it's really important to tell the signs of this one.

Sara: 52:46

Yeah. And I think this is what you're more likely to see on the internet of, Oh, look, my female's got mastitis and there's a teat. You're literally just hanging off a massive hole. Yeah. When all the tissues died off and it's a massive open hole and stitches everything in between.

Isobel: 53:03

It really can look horrendous. So as Sara said there, black mastitis, it's exactly, exactly what it says on the tin. It is where the infection is so bad in the mammary gland that essentially the mammary gland is, is damaged. It looks black, bruised. Really just unhealthy tissue and that is the point at which I would be racing to the vets, not even just on the phone to them personally.

Sara: 53:31

Yeah, and I think it can happen quite quickly because I guess as I say, it's just sitting behind where you can see and then it all becomes exposed and then it all seems quite dramatic quite quickly. That is a vet job, ASAP. As we always said, the female is number one, she is priority and yeah, that is definitely a vet job.

Isobel: 53:50

Emergency vet job. I'll jump in there and say, I don't care if

it's 2: 53:53

00 AM on a Sunday. Yeah. Or whatever time of the day. Bank holiday. If you see any black bruising, bloodied, mammary glands, please hit, it'll go to the vet.

Sara: 54:03

Just to add onto this whole conversation and to wrap up. So I think to be aware of is the chances of mastitis. Can increase when you start weaning puppies and we touched on dietary needs. And I think what people need to remember or bear in mind is that when you start weaning your puppies, she doesn't need as much food because you want her to produce less milk because the pups are now transitioning on to food. And I think sometimes what happens is that. Owners carry on feeding the same amount of food, she becomes engorged because the pups are no longer feeding as much as they need to on her. And then you're causing a whole mastitis issue for yourself. So I think it's always worth bearing in mind a day or two before you start to wean, start reducing her food accordingly, like 10, 20%. Otherwise, yeah, you're going to have a smidge full of milk. Puppies not wanting to feed because now they're already full. of whatever you're transitioning onto. I think that window sometimes goes unmissed. People catch it from the newborn nails, scratching this, that and whatever. And also, I think at the later stage, they've got teeth.

Isobel: 55:18

Yeah, I was about to add that in. And you can't do anything about those.

Sara: 55:22

No, if you leave your weaning late, and then they're They're eating food, but then they're going on mum, and now they've got teeth. You're going to have more chances, we've already said, about trauma in that mammary area that's more likely to kick off mastitis. So I am a person, I wean earlier rather than later, because that suits bulldogs, because they're just, Done really hard work, but even my, my labs, I didn't let her carry on. I mean, she got a bit fed up with them anyway. So I was like, no, let's wean. And they were the easiest breed I've ever weaned. I literally just put raw food down and they walked up to the bowl and ate it. I weaned them in one meal, which is phenomenal. Bulldogs take about two and a half weeks, but then if you start them younger, fair enough. It's a slower transition, but I just conscious some people wean, I think too late. And then again, you're pushing your female. Into that bracket of risk again, for mastitis.

Isobel: 56:19

Now I do agree. And I think it might be worth us doing an entire episode on weaning, because again, that is one of the largest sort of pools of inquiries I get for coaching is, is people essentially asking how to wean puppies successfully, because Again, I think another thing, just to add in here, and eclampsia, and it's another thing that people are very, very careful of in the first couple of weeks, know the symptoms, got their eyes peeled, but until those puppies are weaned, your bitch is at risk. Much like mastitis. I think it's one of those things that we sort of lapse into probably, full sense of security. Sometimes, once we're out of the danger zone, pups sit three weeks and everyone's doing really well, they're up on their feet, eyes are open, everyone's happy, and, and mum's sort of, Bouncing back to a normal self, starting to play again and gravitating back towards normal behavior. Sometimes our level of observation naturally becomes a little bit reduced, I suppose, because we're lulled into that sense of security which is probably incorrect, really.

Sara: 57:16

Yeah. Then, then we start going, Oh no, now I need to do socialisation and now I need to clean up mountains of poo. Yeah. You're Focus, focus taking is in a different direction. So that's fair enough. Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. Right. I think we should wrap this one up 'cause I think we've bleeded on for long enough. Yeah. Any final words from you, Isobel?

Isobel: 57:35

No, absolutely not. But just I think what's been mentioned today hopefully will help many of you just reduce the risk of mastitis really.

Sara: 57:44

I totally agree. Fingers crossed. On, on that note, we're signing off. We are indeed. I'm going to say it again, please share us with like minded breeders. It's all current what we're talking about. It will never date anyway, so you can listen to this it, in the future. But you know hopefully someone would have carried on the generations of our dogs. That's all we asked for. That's all I want in my life. My kennel name carries on without me. Post us, share us on Facebook, Instagram, you know, all that, not just. chat to your mate when you're having a coffee at lunchtime at wherever, but actually proactively make some effort to share us because, you know, we're just doing it for breeders. We want to share our knowledge, share our insight and, and gather new insight at the same time as well. So share us, please rate us, please review us and make sure you subscribe to us. And that's it. I'm signing off.

Isobel: 58:38

Thanks everyone, bye! Hey, before you go, head to breedersbrew. com to claim your free critical care sheet and receive your invitation to join us in the Breeders Brew Community Forum.