Calcium Conundrum: Escaping Eclampsia in Breeding Dogs

In this episode of the Breeders Brew Podcast, we explore the complexities of canine pregnancy and whelping, exploring the vital role of calcium supplementation and debunking common misconceptions.

Discover the fascinating anatomy of the uterus, one of the largest muscles in a female dog's body, and learn about the breeder's crucial role in supporting the mother during labour. We touch on the benefits of raspberry leaf and delve into the timeline of canine labour, from active contractions to whelping pauses and puppy arrival.

Isobel explains why not all supplements are created equal, that some supplements may do more harm than good and how to raise your awareness to avoid low-grade supplement fillers. We also address the burning question of how long calcium supplementation should be continued.

Whether you're a seasoned breeder or a newcomer to the world of canine reproduction, this episode of Breeders Brew is packed with essential insights and practical advice to help you navigate the complexities of calcium supplementation and ensure the safe delivery of healthy litters.

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Transcript

Isobel: 0:02

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by me, Isobel, the canine nutrition coach,

Sara: 0:08

and me, Sarah, the canine family planner.

Isobel: 0:11

Together, we'll be promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods for owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom.

Sara: 0:20

And this episode, we're going to look at eclampsia. So we're going to cover what causes it, what the symptoms are. What the treatment is and any prevention methods. We're going to discuss some of our personal experiences with eclampsia and some of our recommendations as supplements and dietary changes to support pregnant and nursing bitches. And this week I've got a story to tell in regards to a Labrador and a block of cheese. I deal with many clients and have done for over 10 years from a breeding support point of view. And my clients are a vast array of skillset from new and novice to highly experienced. So I know when I generally have a highly experienced breeder contact me, they probably already know the answer. They're just wanting me to agree that their solution is the right solution for the situation that they're in. And I have a breeder who had previously run boarding kennels. He's, though probably had a shorter breeding window than me, he probably has bred more litters than me in that same time frame, just because when I started breeding, originally I was only on like one litter a year, because I was breeding to show. And so, so yeah, though he's had a more condensed timeframe. He he's had a lot of, of puppies in that timeframe, but obviously, again, it obviously depends on the breed as well. Labradors in the scheme of things are fairly straightforward. So he phones me out and he said, Oh, I've got a weird situation. Okay. What's happening. So and so whelped her litter last night. Yeah. Fine. All's fine. Apart from she keeps on constantly moving the puppies. She just won't settle in her bed. Okay. So we had to talk through like how long was the well and she'd had a litter before. No problem. She didn't do any of this behavior before. So it's like, it's just really strange. She just won't settle down with the pup. She keeps moving them about. So I said to him, have you given her calcium supplement? No, I've never given any of my bitches calcium supplements before and she's had a litter before and I didn't need to do it then. No, I haven't given her calcium. Okay then, well, I strongly suggest that you give the female calcium. Whenever I See females behaving in a weird manner that seems to be like neurological where there is almost like a brain fuzziness to them. I always say to people given calcium. So it's like, I haven't got anything can stop. Like I literally haven't ordered a calcium and it's not in my welping kit. I've, I've never used it in my life before. So I said, what have you got in, in the fridge or in the cupboard? You'll see like Americans are obsessed with Tums, aren't they? They're like, you'll see this is I'll give them a thumbs up. I don't even know. Obviously we could buy the equivalent of that over here, but I don't think we can actually buy that particular brand, but I could be wrong. So I said, what have you got in the fridge? And he just had a huge block of cheddar cheese. So I said, well, okay, then give her the, give her the, the cheese. Obviously It's a dairy product. So the problem with giving calcium in a dairy format is you then could upset, upset her stomach because she, if she's not tolerant to dairy, then you're sort of causing another issue. Anyway, it's a Labrador, so they'll eat you out of house and home. She ate this massive block of cheese and needless to say, within 30 minutes, she had calmed down, she was content with her pups and she had stopped moving them about. So that was his fast track experience into eclampsia. Yeah. A quick solution of how to fix it, but not necessarily the best solution going forward. And actually the whole point of this podcast is what can we do to prevent that situation in the first place? So let's have a discussion about eclampsia.

Isobel: 4:09

Absolutely. So yeah, let's talk about eclampsia. I think it is one of those things that as a breeder there are. Probably very few must knows. A lot of new breeders you know, go into it. Make some lovely puppies, don't always know an awful lot and generally things touch wood go really nice and smoothly for them, which is great. That's what we hope everyone has and great luck. But eclampsia is one of those things that in my opinion, whether you are quite a breeder or you think of yourself as a pet owner having a litter, you must know about eclampsia because at the end of the day it is life threatening. And there are things that you can do to minimise risk, very similar to mastitis that we will discuss in another episode. So yeah, I think let's get started and start unpicking this mammoth topic.

Sara: 4:54

It is a mammoth topic. So from my understanding, eclampsia is when there is a deficit of calcium in the body. And this calcium is important because it's required for bodily functions. So I've already alluded to sort of like a brain fog, but I'm sure there's other symptoms. That is displayed within Clampsia. Is it also known as milk fever? Is that something like back in the It is, yeah.

Isobel: 5:21

And I think, as I say, it's a back in the day terminology and also terminology that seems to be common in other countries. It's not so commonly chucked around in the UK at the moment. I don't know why. It seems to be out of favour as terminology. But yeah, if you pick up an old breeding bible or something like that, it's likely to be referred to as milk fever in there.

Sara: 5:41

Okay, and so the symptoms I've got noted would include things such as head tremors, high body temperature, panting, restlessness, and muscle spasms, such as leg twitching, stiffening of the body. Yeah, I think that's quite a significant amount of symptoms to observe in a female.

Isobel: 6:02

And I think it's, it's interesting, actually, as the story sort of glossed over at the beginning, it is something that can literally take down the most experienced breeders or complete novices. It's, again, it's not one of those things where you think, Oh, well, you know, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm looking out for, so it won't happen to me. That is not the case. Every bitch is different. The way that her body will metabolise and store calcium, each pregnancy could be different due to any number of environmental factors. And just the way that her body's reacting to that pregnancy in general. Anyone that is a mom will know that any, no two pregnancies or births are the same. And it's exactly the same for dogs. I think. We get lulled into this full sense of security if a bitch has had litter before that we think, Oh, well, she's fine. She knows what she's doing and her body knows, but no, it doesn't. It doesn't make her any less risk of having eclampsia on, on subsequent litters. So I think it's a topic that, that should be on everyone's radar for sure.

Sara: 6:57

Yeah, for sure. So, what causes the low calcium? Why would a female's calcium levels drop?

Isobel: 7:05

Well, let me jump in here with a bit of a story myself, actually. I years ago, I had an acquaintance in the same breed as me, actually, Miniature Dachshunds. And she would classify herself, and as would I, is highly experienced in the breed. Breeding years, again, it was not a maiden bitch. And she had a bit of a panic at five weeks post whelp. What are the symptoms? In this case, it was literally one back leg stiffening, and that was it. So it was literally, mum whelping box, nothing to necessarily write home about, nothing, nothing unusual. Literally one back leg kept just going a bit stiff. When she was feeding the pups, it was like, Oh, that's really weird. So it can be the most minor of things. And that's what we're saying again, is observations and knowing your female is just super important because you will then know, actually, no, her back leg doesn't just normally twitch. Fortunately, this, this, this lady noticed very quickly, jumped in the car. And before they even made it to the vets, she had what anyone would consider as almost a full blown seizure. Really, really poorly got to the vets. It was completely touch and go. At five weeks, the pups were semi weaned. So again, lulled into a full sense of security where you think pups are on solid food. And this bitch had been reared with what anyone would consider as fantastic husbandry. She had been raw fed on a very good brand of raw food throughout the pregnancy, free fed essentially the whole time the pups were in the whelping box. She hadn't been using a calcium supplement, but again, raw feeding, she was in the, she was in the mindset of, well, this bitch has had a, had a litter before I'm raw feeding. She's getting a balanced diet. What more do I need to do? So unfortunately she had a very, very close call with eclampsia. She didn't lose mum on that occasion, but when I say it was touch and go, it was real life jolting. Ever since then, she's used calcium supplements with every bit since and touch wood not had the problem since. So it is one of those things that it can get everyone. The reason I tell that story is because as you said there, Sarah, well, what causes eclampsia? Why do some girls get it? And it isn't, Obviously, an easy thing to look at initially is calcium is something that we can get from the diet, as with humans, you know, you do eat food that contains calcium. So the most logical way of, of looking at the problem is, is she getting enough calcium in her diet? Most commercial dog foods do follow a certain guideline that means that they should in theory have the correct balance of generic sort of nutrients in. As we mentioned in another podcast. There is something called a maintenance food, or what we should consider as maintenance food, which is potentially something that your dog is eating between breeding. So yes, her nutrient requirements will go up during pregnancy. I'm not saying for a second that you should go out and start ladening her food up with calcium supplements while she's pregnant. That is not the case. However, there are some girls that are just naturally predisposed to being essentially fantastic mothers, where once they have those pups, everyone's popped out nice and safely, they start producing milk and all of their calcium stores from essentially, which is where it's stored is in the bones, get stripped out and they give everything they can to those puppies, including the calcium stores. That is essentially what eclampsia is. It's when mum strips herself of calcium to, to produce the milk and be a good mum. There isn't necessarily no rhyme or rhythm as to why her body goes out of what's called homeostasis, which is natural balance. Some girls will, some girls won't. It is worth me saying here there are breeds that are naturally at elevated risk. Any toy breeds or table breeds, small breeds, Dachshunds as a breed are far more highly prone to eclampsia. I don't know why but they are and it is widely accepted in the breed as that being the case. So they are a breed that should always be supplemented with calcium post, post whelp.

Sara: 10:57

With this come down to like, they've got shorter legs so they have less bones in their body so surely they carry less calcium.

Isobel: 11:04

Do you know what? That has been a real hypothesis of mine in the back of my head. I'm like, yeah, it makes sense because if you think they are, they aren't a small dog Dachshunds, they have short legs. So their body size and length is correct. It's just they're on shortened legs. So yeah, it does make me wonder if like you said, they are, they've essentially got three quarters less leg length to store calcium in, in those, in those bones. So it could well be. It's interesting too much. Yeah, it's too much of a coincidence and it makes me wonder if maybe breeds with more density, breeds that require more bone, are they less likely to suffer it because they have more denser bone to carry extra calcium? In theory, that's a really good point. And yeah, like from a taking a step back and sort of having a chat about it, that would make perfect logical sense to me because that is where the calcium is stored is in that dense bone. So, you know, breeds like. your bulldogs that should, you know, breed standards should have lovely decent bone on them then yeah. And it would also make sense on, on the flip side that that's why toy and table breeds potentially struggle with eclampsia more is because naturally they have a more delicate bone. They shouldn't generally be thick set and things like that. It could be, and again, this is why bitches that having large litters are at higher risk as well. Puppy to body ratio is higher, so they are needing to give more calcium than what is traditionally average. So you should know what the average litter size is for your breed. It's an important thing to know so that if your girl is having a larger than average litter size, again, she falls in the category of high risk for eclampsia.

Sara: 12:39

Yeah, so really good reason for pregnancy ultrasound scanning. A hundred percent. Have you got a big litter due? Is this more likely now to be a condition I need to be aware of because of litter size? Yeah, how do I plan for that appropriately?

Isobel: 12:53

But it's not generally considered safe, unless under veterinary instruction, to be supplementing a bitch with calcium 3 pregnancy. The reason for that is, mentioning the buzzword again, but homostasis. So the body, homostasis is, a natural balance. It can be in, you can use the terminology and everything, anything in life, but naturally our body sits at a point of homeostasis. So through pregnancy, hopefully your girl will sit at a point of balance and her body will naturally safely deplete her own calcium stores suitably to grow those puppies, then provide milk for those puppies. However, if that tips out of balance, that is when pre or post eclampsia can occur. As I've said there, it's just really important to know the signs. And particularly for pre eclampsia, because we don't traditionally supplement with calcium through pregnancy. Because the reason being, is you knock off that homeostasis, or you knock off that natural balance. If you're then giving her Additional calcium through pregnancy, you are sort of telling her body that there is a natural abundance of that her body will then not store the calcium suitably that she's getting from her diet, much like humans when we eat too much sugar, it's a very similar concept of our body gets used to a lot of sugar, we sort of it knocks out of balance in a very similar way. So that's why we don't readily supplement with calcium through pregnancy is because you're knocking off her body's ability to take in the right amount into her bones and then release it for the right reasons. By supplementing with calcium through pregnancy, you will do more harm than good unless you're under veterinary guidance for a health condition.

Sara: 14:26

And I get asked about this a lot in regards to, you know, People are kind of aware that they should give calcium, but they have no clue as to when and really why. And I always say to people, yeah, calcium is definitely an important supplement, but you do not do anything until they're in labour. So it's active labour and they're having contractions, which I don't know if you want to talk about how calcium's used in that instance. I think there's this sort of myth that's gone around previously that you start supplementing before. the delivery and all this kind of stuff. And yeah, quite scary that you're, you're actually potentially doing more harm than good. So yeah, unless the vet says to give them supplement, you do not do anything until you've got an active labour or a puppy born and then to supplement from that point. But so just to explain why is calcium needed? during labour.

Isobel: 15:18

Calcium is, yeah, it's a very new concept. It's not new for the people that are in the biology world or, or sort of done this sort of background educationally. It's very understandable as to why calcium is needed in labour. I think it's one of those things that people are starting to be more aware that supplements exist and that there are natural things you can give your bitch and more of a holistic view to aiding Whelp and rearing and things like that, which is why I think there's been a bit of a light shone in the corner more recently of calcium during, during labour or whelping. The reason being is because all mammals that are built in a similar way, such as us and canines, we have muscles.

Sara: 15:57

And apparently we do.

Isobel: 15:59

I mean, I don't exercise anywhere near as much as I should, but my dogs certainly have very good muscle condition. I assure you that one. So, yeah, we all have muscles and there are. A number of molecules, without getting too complex, I don't want to, I don't want to bore anyone to sleep, that are involved in the, literally, the muscle's ability to pull, and that's what a contraction is. Our entire skeleton is pulled and moved by muscles, and dogs are exactly the same. So without muscles, we could not move. The reason that we can move is because a muscle pulls a bone in a particular direction. I'm not saying we need to move bones when we are in labour and welp. However, I think a lot of people don't realize that the uterus is one of the largest muscles in a female body. labour, and us, and dogs, yeah, is, is the uterus contracting. It's, it's got a load of smooth muscle around it, there are different types of muscle, and that contracts, and it's actually that natural contraction that expels the puppies out of the uterus. That is why, in the same way that we need, Muscles to move ourselves. We also need good muscles to be able to have a smooth and safe labour. Calcium is needed for a muscle to contract. Again, without boring you all to sleep, there are a few different molecules that the muscles need. Without calcium, those processes to contract a muscle can't happen. You don't have enough calcium in your diet. Not only do you have poor bone density and just poor general condition, but your muscles can't work effectively either. When we're talking about the uterus needing to. contract. That is a muscle and it needs calcium to contract. So that is why calcium is so important during labour.

Sara: 17:36

I literally had a conversation yesterday where a spaniel took, I think it was something like nine hours to whelp four pups. I was like, that's quite a long time for four puppies and that breed. So we had the conversation. I was like, well, what do you give her while she's whelping? Oh, nothing. I was like, well, the pup's big. No, not really. I don't think people necessarily realise they can help basically. And some supplements will help that. So in my head, I'm thinking, I'm sure we'll talk about Ras Relief another day, but if I've got a female and I'm, I'm whelping naturally, Ras Relief is definitely a supplement I want to be giving. And likewise, once I've got a female, actively delivering calcium is a supplement I can be given. My job as a breeder is to support my female as best possible to ensure this, this whole experience, it doesn't become some mammoth endurance. I want her to deliver healthy pups as quickly as possible, as safely as possible, job done. And to me to have such a, long window and widely accepted. Typically you're expecting a pup an hour. You can have active contractions for up to 30 minutes until a pup's born. You can have a whelping pause, sorry, that generally can go up to four hours. There's no contractions that fine. That's fine. But yeah, when you've got four pups, even if she was carrying two in each. In each horn because uterus is like a wishbone, you know, generally you're thinking like two hours, one side, and even if she had a bit of a gap, then two hours, the other side, you know, four hours, five, six hours, max, not much more than that. And most females, once they get going, typically. You know, they come quicker than one an hour. I think that was an ideal opportunity that I said to her, well, if I was you, once it slowed down, I would be giving calcium. I'd be getting her up and about. We just want, once contraptions are started, we literally want them to carry on until all pups are safely delivered. So I just think some people just accept that a labour is going to be long. And obviously they have, it's a multiple birth delivery. Yeah, of course. And, but the dogs are designed for that. And yeah, I just think some people just accept that. Oh yeah, of course she's just going to do that. Or it's going to be this long. Not, well, no, not really. There are some interventions you can implement safely at the correct time that will actually hopefully support your female, make the whole process a bit more comfortable and a bit more seamless.

Isobel: 20:00

Absolutely. And I think as particularly you and I sort of holistic breeders in our approaches and our females always being top priority pets first and foremost, I think we owe it to them to have everything possible on hand to make that labour as smooth as possible. Why wouldn't you? It's not a pleasant experience for mum. You want her to go through it as safely and swiftly as possible. Calcium is the easiest thing to have on hand. And to be honest with you, you need it. Not all breeds, some people don't like to give it, that's fine. But in my opinion, you need it from the minute that she's been, even if she has the most smooth and beautiful labour and you don't need to give it during labour, the minute those pups are all delivered, you should be supplementing her with calcium if she's a higher risk breed or pregnancy anyway, to make sure she then doesn't develop a calamity or post welp. It's likely you should already have it in your cupboard, so you absolutely should have it at the ready as part of your welping kit in my opinion.

Sara: 20:51

Okay. So let's talk, you, you saying that you should have it in your cupboard. Obviously the person that I dealt with, they gave a block of cheddar cheese. I believe cottage cheese is probably a better form of cheese to be given if you were to give cheese, but obviously there are better alternatives. So let's have a A discussion about calcium supplements that are available. I know that online, everyone's quite obsessed with liquid calcium. I have been that person at one point, to be fair, because I'm like, oh yeah, in my head, if I need calcium, liquid means it's going to get absorbed into the body quicker. I can just syringe it in, off we go. However, from my experience, I couldn't get that, that liquid calcium into the female come the third day of the pups. And so I always had three quarter used bottles and that was it. I never in the history of any of my litters had I ever managed to use a significant amount of liquid calcium because she see me coming towards her with that syringe. She'd be like, I am off. Yeah. So it must taste absolutely foul, which is in some of these liquid calciums because bulldogs aren't particularly fussy. Realistically, how much have I helped just giving supplements for just three days? Like what, what is that going through? Yeah, and then I've, I've, I've partially tainted her whelping experience or me coming at her with these syringes full of manky looking solution. Is liquid the way to go? Is tablet form fine or capsules? Like, how important is it that it's a liquid?

Isobel: 22:25

My whelping experience has been very similar to you on the front of calcium. Years ago, again, having a breed that was at high risk of eclampsia, we've always been proactive with calcium. Even 15 odd years ago, we were doing things to mitigate lack of calciums. When liquid calcium popped up on the market and was, you know, it's been popular for probably, I 10 years ago, I'd say. It's dropping my head. Sort of 10 years ago, up until recently, it seemed the way forward. It's. Our girls are exactly the same as yours by the sound of it. They learn by literally the end of the first day what that syringe means that's coming towards their mouths and anyone that's spent a significant amount of time next to their bitch's whelping box will know that their poor mums, Mouths are constantly doing something, whether that's stimulating puppies, just trying to relax. The chances are they're in a warmer environment, so they're probably a little bit dehydrated. And I can't imagine how awful it must be for them having foul tasting liquids constantly shot into their mouths when they're already clearing up urine, probably potentially a bit of urine burn around their mouths, in their mouths, dehydrated. It's the last thing they want in their mouths, so don't blame them.

Sara: 23:33

Yeah, I know I had a client say to me, she, it was actually, she was doing liquid calcium with her spaniels and they're at, it was actually making them sick.

Isobel: 23:45

Yes, you are not the first person I've heard that from.

Sara: 23:47

They weren't even, they weren't even keeping in what you were giving them and then actually probably made it even worse because now they're being sick with a bit of food that they had eaten that now they've not. And she said to me, like, I don't know what to do. So obviously, cause I know you, I just said. We'll just give her capsules.

Isobel: 24:02

Yeah, yeah. Funnily enough, I've had exactly the same experience myself as, as your client, because years ago we jumped on the bandwagon, as does everyone, of liquid calcium. And we had a girl that was being violently sick, really intermittently, no rhyme, no reason. It wasn't constant. We could not get to the bottom of it. We had a couple of day old pups at home. We were going back and forth to the vets. Obviously, you know what it's like when you've got a poorly mum, you think, let's throw the kitchen sink at her and make sure she's okay as our top priority. Back and forth to the vets. Could not get to the bottom of it. Full blood panel, everything else, everything's coming out fine. After a good lengthy discussion with the vet, we were going through all the things with feeding. The only thing we were doing differently, realistically in the grand scheme of things, was the calcium. Lick of calcium, got home, cut it out. Low and behold, no more sickness. So after literally hundreds, probably nearing thousands at the vet, it was something as simple as what we were doing wasn't the right thing for her. It's worth saying that calcium naturally does not come in liquid form. So if, if you look at elemental, elemental calcium, it's in its natural state, it is not a liquid. Water obviously is a mixture of molecules, but nonetheless, you think of water, it's a liquid, you know, naturally at room temperature, it's a liquid. Obviously we have to mix elemental calcium with things or it has to come in a certain form, but liquid calcium has been made liquid for our benefit. It's been made into a liquid because we can dosage it really easily with your syringe, pull it out to the right quantity, and it's super easy in theory to get into your female, which is why it's been made a liquid. But to be made a liquid, obviously it's got to be mixed with loads of things. So a really common ingredient is glucose, which is literally sugar, which as you can imagine, a lot of dogs aren't used to eating. A lot of dogs don't naturally have a lot of glucose syrups. It's no wonder that suddenly when you're giving a bitch quite a large quantity of glucose, that it's going to do something. Some girls might get a bit of a benefit out of that energy rush. On the other hand, if your bitch is on something that's similar to a keto diet, or a pretty sugar free diet, which most dogs are if you're pumping a load of glucose into her, you're gonna make her feel pretty unwell. But at the end of the day, it's, you know, it's been formulated that way for our benefit. Yes. Liquid calcium exists. I'll chuck a caveat in here because we only actually discovered this off the back of our girl being so poorly on liquid calcium, which is actually how sort of Canine Nutrition Coach came to be. It was sort of off the back of this entire embroiling story. We did some research into liquid calciums and common ingredients and what could be making our girl so sick because we still needed to supplement her with calcium to keep her safe. And we were looking at all, all different. Things that we could be doing. Quite surprisingly, a very common ingredient in liquid calcium is propylene glycol. I may not have said that completely correctly, so feel free to correct me in the reviews guys, but it is actually a very brilliant ingredient in antifreeze. Don't ask me why they are putting it in dog foods, dog supplements. It's an interesting one. From what I understand, it is to make the dog food, liquid, whatever, stable for a longer period of time and easier to manufacture.

Sara: 27:12

Oh, like a preservative then?

Isobel: 27:14

Yeah, something like that and anything in between. I mean, I'm careful even about, you know, exposure to floor cleaning products and things like that with my dogs. I'm not really sure if many of us knew that we were feeding our dogs antifreeze, we'd be too cool with it.

Sara: 27:29

No, not at all. Especially at a time where she's got pups and is quite vulnerable.

Isobel: 27:33

Yeah, it's, it's crazy. It's one of those things that you don't, you don't, you just, Why would you, why would you, why would you check? Why would you check the back of that bottle? If it's got a picture of a dog on it and you're told it's calcium for dogs, you've got trust in the manufacturer, the provider, you know, why wasn't you? The same way we do in dog food and everything else. It was a bit of a groundbreaking shock to us that we had been feeding our girl antifreeze. It was harrowing. It really was. We were, Taking a long, hard look in that mirror. Yeah, we were quite disappointed, but it was a lesson learned thankfully many years ago, so we haven't been using it since. I'm sure there are brands of liquid calcium out there that don't have glucose syrup in and that don't have E numbers or antifreezing, in which case. Potentially that, that's okay, but I would just say, please, word of caution, check the really small print on the back of that label. Not the high level, this is the amount of elemental calcium or whatever type of calcium they've got in there and they're telling you the milligram per dosage and things like that. Look deeper, look deeper on that label or the website just to make sure because as you can imagine, antifreeze is toxic to dogs. It can cause low blood pressure, cardiovascular problems, seizures. Obviously a lot of those symptoms can also look like a poorly mum dog or can also look like eclampsia. You could be doing more harm than good and I think that's why there is a strong opinion particularly from breeders in lower risk breeds for Clampsia that have been breeding a very long time that have potentially never supplemented with calcium and don't understand why you would. I must side with them when it comes to This is probably why. They probably know these sort of ingredients that are in the calcium supplements and they're thinking, no, I don't need to be doing that. However, nowadays there are alternatives. I don't think enough people know about them because liquid calcium for some reason is, is considered gospel. There are other options that are far more safer.

Sara: 29:22

I was going to say, you had me really at calcium in its natural form isn't a liquid, it's to be constituted in liquid. Then maybe that should be me doing that. So I know what I'm mixing it in rather than it being mixed. And I've seen it myself. Like you have to shake bottles of calcium because you see all the sediment, which is obviously the calcium just sinks all to the bottom. So it needs a good old shake up before you actually use it. Why would I just not Have that calcium in its natural state and mix it myself with something I know is safe and then give it to my female if I want it in an extra amount.

Isobel: 29:59

Exactly, exactly that. Yeah, I think there are other options out there and I think it's a really important discussion that people realise that there isn't one size fits all when it comes to calcium. But there are far more sensible options out there than potentially the ones you may already know about. And so calcium itself, without boring the socks off everyone, there's something called elemental calcium. That is calcium. That is literally in its natural state. This is, I think, another reason why people get so confused about calcium supplements is because on the bottle or packet, whatever, it will say X milligram of calcium. But that doesn't mean that's how much calcium is actually in that supplement. So a good way of me sort of describing this would be orange squash. Imagine everyone likes a different strength of orange squash. Some people are pretty crazy and will put in a huge amount of orange squash and a lot of water, some people less so. Now every type of calcium is a different strength of orange squash. So you've got, you know, Various different types of supplemented daily. You've got calcium carbonate, calcium chloride, calcium citrate, calcium lactate, calcium gluconate. There are different types and they all have different strengths of the pure thing in, which is pure elemental calcium. It is such a minefield, the world of calcium supplementation, because a lot of big brands aren't making it easy for you to understand what elemental calcium there is. I did a bit of market research before this episode just to, to bring in some real life explanations. And one of the biggest brands or most widely available brands of calcium supplementation, it didn't tell me anywhere on the label what the elemental calcium was per dosage. So that makes it really tough for breeders to know if you've done the research and you think, right, I've worked out what milligram of calcium my bitch needs per kilo of her pre pregnancy body weight to make sure that we are doing the right things for her. If these brands aren't making it easy for you to work out, it's not ideal. First and foremost, in my opinion, that's something we need to sort out. It's not fair on breeders trying to do the right thing and it's already been made far too difficult when you've already got puppy brain. I think it speaks for themselves if they're not telling you.

Sara: 32:05

Yes, yeah, that is very true. Straight away. Is that the company that you wanna be buying this product from? Why? Is there any reason for them to hide it unless it's so minimal for their markup that that's why they're not putting it on in the first place? Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good point. That's all you can generally surmise from that is that, oh, it's so minimal. They don't wanna disclose that because they're, they're make, they're profiting from it. And then again, yeah, it could be. Why would you buy that? Well, that's the only. Nice way of putting it because otherwise we'd know the other reasons why again, you just think, is that the product I want to be buying when it's not even detailed on the packet? That's sort of, that is a hard and fast straight way that I don't even know what the calculations should be for my breeds, to be fair, because I'm unaware. And I'm sure you're going to cover this, like, can you overdose on calcium or not? I've always assumed you can't, but you can definitely Put me right on that one.

Isobel: 33:01

When it comes to calcium, any supplementation you give is better than nothing. Whether that's too much, too little, you're doing something. And I think, again, that's something that people get so hung up on is, oh, what's the right amount? Obviously, yes, try and get the right amount. But if you do get it slightly wrong, you're not going to cause any kind of long lasting damage unless you're obviously pumping like an entire packet into it every day. And then obviously, you know, you're doing something wrong at that point.

Sara: 33:25

Yeah. Cause it's really expensive buying that amount.

Isobel: 33:27

So there are brands out there that are trying to change changes to breeders. This isn't a shameless plug, but obviously canine nutrition coach supplements, they've been designed with breeders in mind, being a breeder myself and being a breeding nutritionist. In particular, I think it's so important to be actually giving people what they deserve, which is transparent and easy to understand supplements that are not full of antifreeze and general rubbish. So, no, the calcium supplement that I spent such a long time working on is exactly that. It's, it's pure calcium. It's got no antifreeze in, no unnecessary sugars and anything like that. Because essentially with a new mum, that is The last thing you need to be doing to give you an idea, as I mentioned earlier, there are different types of calcium and it is really important to understand them because some types of calcium will be easier on tummies and more easily absorbable for example, calcium carbonate, because it is such a readily absorbed type of calcium, but there are others that are even better. Calcium citrate is one of most easily absorbed for dogs. That is why that's a particular form of calcium that I provide because it's easily absorbed. It's also a lot easier on the stomach, which as we know for a new mum, very often they'll have upset tums and things like that. The last thing you want to be doing is providing her a calcium supplement that's really tough on her tummy and needs a high amount of stomach acid to dissolve because you don't want to be. encouraging any stronger stomach acids going on in there, bless her. She's got a lot, a lot to deal with, with all of the cleanup of pups and things like that. So finding a tummy safe and soothing form of calcium is a great place to start.

Sara: 35:09

And so just out of interest, obviously I know because I used yours on my last litters and I just followed yours instructions in regards to dosage and stuff, and we've already said you generally can't overdose on it, but there Calculators, is it the people sort of go online and use?

Isobel: 35:25

Yeah, absolutely. Exactly that. There are calculators online. It does get a little bit complex if you're using a brand that isn't transparent about the levels of the type of calcium and the milligram based on that type or, and or, the elemental calcium that, that particular supplement actually contains per dosage. Because some, for example, will tell you the, the amount of calcium per. Two, three, four doses or the amount of calcium per pack, which isn't going to help you when you're trying to work out how much. for your bitch. For example, not a shameless plug, but a shameless plug, the calcium that I provide is in capsules. They're plant based capsules, so they are not at all synthetic, which again is really important for a new mum. So these have been designed in mind that you can simply pull the capsule apart and sprinkle the contents into anything. So if your girl is eating her wet food but not her kibble, great, mix it into her wet food. You find she's completely gone off her food completely, great, mix it into bone broth. You can mix it into anything you need to get it into your girl in a way that she's going to enjoy eating it because at the end of the day, you should not be stressing her out anymore. She's got a lot on her plate as it is, bless her. These particular In the canine nutrition coach, calcium supplements, they are dosed based on capsule. So it is super easy to understand. There is total transparency about what is, what is actually contained in each capsule. There is 105 milligrams of calcium citrate. in each capsule, and I also provide personalized advice based on every single supplement. So if ever you've been on my website already, you will find there are a couple of boxes to fill in before you check out, I'm afraid. The reason being is because I will never let a breeder sit there and struggle to work out what quantity they should be giving and things like that, because The whole point of supplements is they should be empowering and they should be doing what they are intended to do. And if you're giving that in the wrong quantity or you're too concerned to start giving it because you can't work it out, that's no help for anyone. The dosage charts are all up there. It's super easy to work out and you can't get it wrong. Which I think is so important.

Sara: 37:37

Yeah, well as you say, I think the detail is on the label and I used your products for the last two litters. And I just followed the instructions basically, but I can read, so let's understand it. Is calcium like Tasteless, low taste triggers, what's the... Isobel: yeah, so it would as well, obviously, you know, if you go and use another brand, I can't, I can't confirm what they do or don't, you know, so essentially again, to fill an entire capsule and have it run through the manufacturing pipes, generally, Particularly to reduce costs, some manufacturers will put in very cheap filler. So depending on what that filler is, that may not be flavorless. So it's worth considering that actually that's another, another benefit for more pure products and those that are without synthetic fillers. For example, something like A brown rice filler is a very sensible filler. On the other hand, a filler that's very commonly used in, in some manufacturing to keep costs down, not in my brand, I will state is magnesium citrate. And it's been linked to immune, it's been linked to immune suppression, which is obviously, it's not what a new mum needs. She needs a strong, healthy immune system. So again, it's just a common filler to, to be sort of cautious of and avoid where possible. Yeah, I think it's important to know, yeah, I don't think you can necessarily appreciate that level of detail until you start using a different product and then you actually see the quality difference. I used it on both the current litters, split the capsules, you could just tell it just looked decent, mixed it in. The dogs knew no different. They ate their food, they maintained their appetites throughout their welcoming, which was good and rearing the pups. Likewise, I had no milk production issues. You know, milk quality was good. Puppy gains was good. So yeah, I didn't have any weird situations of behavior with the pup. Like it literally was all seamless on, on both ends of the, of the spectrum of the different breeds. So yeah, without a doubt going forward, it would always be something. It'd always been something that I started, but never completed all the way through because I just couldn't get that calcium in them from the third day onwards.

Isobel: 39:44

And again, Which is a really interesting point you raised there. If most people are giving up calcium supplementation at day three, that's generally when milk's dropping or around the time that milk's dropping, which actually, when you think in terms of calcium requirement, you would expect that to actually increase. Following those three days rather than the initial three days where it's predominantly colostrum production. So potentially counterproductive if you're only supplementing for the first three days because you're giving mum an abundance of calcium, sort of shunting her homeostasis balance off where she's thinking, Oh, I've got loads of calcium. I don't necessarily need to mobilise what I've got in my system. And then that to then be cut off. You could be potentially, I don't know.

Sara: 40:22

Yeah, well, the bull breeds and yeah, milk production being a bit ropey and a bit poor and maybe, yeah, that was all me, my fault. Going forward now, I've got my plan and I strongly recommend that other breeders follow something similar of finding a good calcium product, understanding the dosage and the benefits it's going to bring mum and pups. There are ways like you talked about bone broth naturally as calcium, a small amount of calcium, but as calcium in talked about dairy products, but that could have a side impact of feeding dairy to a dog. There's other, other natural ways, such as, or dietary ways, such as leafy greens, kale, broccoli, seaweed, apparently as well. But I mean, I don't know if I tried to start feeding my dog seaweed. That's never. eaten seaweed before.

Isobel: 41:08

Yeah. I think, funnily enough, I had a, I had a really interesting conversation with a coaching client literally this week, actually, because they had been very proactive, which is always brilliant to say, been in loads of feeding groups on Facebook and the likes, and they had been strongly recommended to start feeding a specific type of seaweed through pregnancy. And we had a really interesting debate about it because I said to him, well, what have you been doing? He was raw feeding for transparency here. I said, what have you been adding to her raw food for the last 12 months? Nothing was your answer. So I said, so we're suddenly going to start adding seaweed in copious amounts. As per this recommendation, at a time when her body has such completely out of kilt nutritional requirements and the amount they'd actually been recommended to feed in seaweed was quite high and seaweed does contain other nutrients and actually we worked out the nutritional imbalance it would have caused and it would have done more damage than good. I'm all for adding in fresh and adding in, as I mentioned in another podcast, a really good way of improving your dog's diet on a budget and in the best way is start adding some veg in, absolutely. But don't go crazy. Don't just pick one particular type of one particular food group and go crazy adding it because if a dog's not already used to it, you could cause an imbalance.

Sara: 42:25

No, that's fair point. And while you talk about diet as well, what's the do's and don'ts in regards to calcium, particularly for raw feeders, pre welp, post welp, because I think they're aware of if they're feeding. Bone. If bone is in the diet, what do they need to do differently before, yeah, the whelp and after the whelp? So I don't know if you just quickly want to touch on that.

Isobel: 42:50

Yeah, I'll happily gloss over that. And again, this is one of my most common questions actually, so I should have probably started with this one. It's something that I am asked a lot. Stay in day out is bone and raw feeding and things like that. A lot of breeders like to reduce bone content in the diet from week seven of pregnancy. So that's 49 days gestation around the time when you could also do a progress scan, and I always do a progress ultrasound at that point to check that the fetal development is on point.

Sara: 43:16

You definitely pick up bone formation on a progress scan where you'll literally actually see ribs, spine, measure skulls. So, yeah, and it's almost You can see the brightness. I guess it's a calcification. You can literally look at the bright and white it is, like it's decent bone there. Basically if it was all gray and murky, there'd be questionable this one's not looking typical. Why is that the case? So yeah, without a doubt that can get picked up at that point.

Isobel: 43:41

So it's a really poignant part in the breeding journey for me. I know at week seven, there's a few things that happen. We change diet slightly. We change. We start nesting, we go for our progress scan. It's quite an easy window to remember. I also raw feed mine generally through pregnancy. I start reducing bone content from week seven. The reason being is there are a few reasons, actually. It goes out saying anyone that's had a pregnant bitch will know in the final weeks, they can get a little bit full, a bit uncomfortable, particularly if it's a large litter. You'll generally find that you need to start feeding smaller, more frequent meals. And as we all know, anyone that's a raw feeder, the benefits of our lovely little dog poos to clear up. They're great. They're wonderfully non offensive. However, you can imagine that if you have a bitch on a slightly higher bone content, without being too graphic, we're all dog people here, poos do become a lot harder and more solid because of that higher bone content. So if she is Already uncomfortable when going to the toilet from having such a large tummy. The last thing you want to be doing is providing her food that's going to make her stools harder to pass and more firm. So that's a big, great reason of reducing bone content in those final weeks is just making it more comfortable for her when she's, when she's going to the toilet. Secondly, is to make sure that we are not inundating her body with calcium. So some, some breeders obviously naturally will increase the food intake in those final weeks, If you are increasing her food intake in the same ratio, naturally she will be eating more calcium because if we are increasing her diet as a whole, we are increasing her access to all of those nutrients. So if you are increasing the amount of calcium she is being fed, as I mentioned earlier, you are naturally going to disrupt the balance that calcium is in her body. So we don't want her body thinking there is an abundance of dietary calcium. Being set up for, for a clampsier post pup. So it's another way that the joys of, of when you're feeding a more tailored approach of dog food, you can tweak things and change the way you feed. So yes, I do reduce the amount of calcium in the form of bone in the final weeks of pregnancy for those two reasons.

Sara: 45:47

Is that just a case of, do you just switch to a non, a boneless meat? Is that what you do? Or do you do something different?

Isobel: 45:53

Again, it depends on what your girl's settled on, what her dietary preferences are, but one of the benefits of raw feeding is you don't have to be loyal to a brand. You can kind of shop around, find a particular protein that works for your dogs, or hopefully a set of proteins that work for your dogs. So in the final few weeks, I will buy an additional Boneless minces, absolutely. And then I can basically essentially water down the completes or whatever I might be feeding that have the bone content in. I do reduce the number, anyone that's doing DIY raw feeding, for anyone that doesn't, essentially what that means is a raw feeder will try and mimic a natural diet in the wild. It might provide. A bone heavy meal, for example, a duck neck or a chicken wing or any combination of bone, high bone content, food items or prey items, and in the next meal, they're likely to feed a lower bone content meal and try and balance it out. As a DIY feeder, you do need to be more conscious that you are reducing the amount of heavy bone meals. Again, the reason being, If you're feeding a heavy bone meal for breakfast as part of a DIY balanced diet, she is going to find it harder to pass those stools initially. So if you are a DIY feeder, I presume that you've got your balances perfectly worked out. But if not, you can err on the side of caution, slowly move across to complete and then obviously be watering bone content down with boneless. Or if you want to consider continuing with DIY, that's great. But just add in some more boneless meals I'd recommend.

Sara: 47:27

Super. Yeah. And obviously, even for anyone that's feeding treats, it's to be aware of what treats might be like chicken fee or so yeah, it's not just the food that goes in their food bowl. It's thinking about that whole consumption of food that dogs has. Absolutely, exactly that. And chicken feet are dead popular, so that was a good one to bring up. Yeah, exactly. In all forms as well, I assume. Processed and non processed.

Isobel: 47:51

I've got my preferences. Yeah, I like a minimally processed sousehold, but whatever floats your boat.

Sara: 47:58

Yeah, I say I like a puffed chicken foot here because the bulldogs are really greedy and they choke on anything that isn't slightly processed because they eat it whole and then they puke it up and then they eat it again. So a puffed chicken foot is my preference here. It's just a slightly safer. Right. Is there anything else that we haven't covered with, enclampsia that we should have covered?

Isobel: 48:18

When to finish preventing is really important, and when the risk of eclampsia starts to diminish. I think a lot of people don't realise quite how large the danger window is. I think it's because, again, full sense of security, once the pups are up on their feet, eyes are open and everyone's thriving, mum's bouncing back, wanting her dog walks, depending on the bitch, sort of three, four, five weeks post welp, that sometimes we forget that she isn't still in that danger window. So for high risk breeds, as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, obviously they need to be supplemented a lot longer than lower risk pregnancies. So I recommend that these kind of girls are supplemented until at least day 40 post welt. Stop supplementing around when the pup sits six weeks, by which point, hopefully, you will have been well on your way to weaning them, they'll have been nicely sort of reduced on mum, milk supply will be diminishing, and I would not be supplementing any sooner than when their pups hit six weeks. Obviously, if your bitch is a lower risk and you're weaning earlier and it's all gone to plan, obviously you could stop supplementing a little bit sooner than that. But personally, in my breed, I supplement until six weeks.

Sara: 49:25

Yeah, sounds fair. Yeah, I think with the lab, I did quite a long time. More than I would ever previously. It feels

Isobel: 49:32

bizarre.

Sara: 49:32

As I said, I've only ever done to day three, so it all felt long to be fair. Yeah. The way that it. They were taken, it was easy enough. It was no, it was no hard work. A lot longer than you would think in your head. Yeah. For the reasons given.

Isobel: 49:45

It does feel bizarre. It feels like a very long time. Once you've got five, six week old pups running around, it does feel a bit bizarre giving a calcium supplement. But to be honest with you, it is, it is in that sort of four or five week window where a lot of people find themselves in, in the realms of eclampsia, because They've reduced mum's food intake that you know, you feel like you're out of the woods You're not necessarily monitoring her quite as much and actually that is it's a really really common window for girls to go down with eclampsia and I think a lot of people assume it's gonna be when she's in the whelping box still But it's it's very common much for her to go down with it much further on.

Sara: 50:21

Yeah, no really valid point We are done. I believe in this series be split into four mum focused episodes and four puppy focused episodes. So this kind of concludes the mum focus episodes and we're going to switch across, but obviously they're interlinked. So we will always flip back and forth, but yeah, that's it for eclampsia, the usual, could you please share us with like minded breeders Facebook, Instagram, talk to people. Send them the QR link, copy and paste the link wherever you're subscribed to this podcast. Be a bit proactive for us. That would be great. We want to take over the world. No, we don't. We want to help as many people as we can. Yeah, that's what we want to do. Yeah. We're not a Donald Trump. We want to actually help people.

Isobel: 51:14

Absolutely not.

Sara: 51:15

Please share, please rate, please review us. All these tiny little things that that cost you nothing will help this podcast and help gather exposure to help other breeders. Ultimately, that's what you're doing is not necessarily helping us. It's helping the next generation of, of breeders. So subscribe, share, rate, review. That's it, that's all I need to say.

Isobel: 51:39

Thanks very much for joining us.

Sara: 51:41

And thanks for listening.

Isobel: 51:46

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