Weaning Puppies without the Stress or Mess!

Welcome to another enlightening episode, in which we explore the world of puppy weaning and the benefits of raw feeding for our furry companions.

We discuss breeders' obsession with goat's milk and Weetabix while emphasising the importance of not making puppies fussy eaters. Learn about the effectiveness of transition foods and discover tips for successful weaning, including adding water and using silicone spoons.

We also discuss the common issue of "6-week squits" and the various solutions, from worming and stool cultures to antibiotics and how supplements like pure slippery elm uncover the incredible benefits of slippery elm for puppies and post-whelping mothers.

Navigate the complexities of raw feeding cost considerations, including litter and breed sizes. Understand the expense of raw weaning and ideas to accommodate the possible additional cost and whether raw-fed puppies deter potential owners.

Take action with Sara's playbook feeding guide and implement tips for improving the transition to a new home. Whether you're a seasoned breeder or a novice puppy parent, this episode of Breeders Brew is packed with invaluable insights and practical advice to help you navigate the journey of puppy weaning and raw feeding with confidence and success.

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Transcript

Sara: 0:02

Welcome to the Breeders Brew, the dog breeding podcast hosted by myself, Sara, the Canine Family Planner,

Isobel: 0:09

and me, Isobel, the Canine Nutrition Coach.

Sara: 0:12

We're promoting responsible breeding by unpicking the minefield of breeding myths and methods for owners wishing to expand their whelping wisdom. Thank you for joining us. In this podcast episode, we're going to look at weaning puppies. We'll look at the benefits of weaning onto different types of food and also look at weaning schedules and how they should be adapted or not. So this is a conversation once again that Isobel and I see online. People asking how should they wean their pup, when should they start weaning their pups, they're having problems weaning their pups, and so we're just bringing a general conversation of our thoughts, our opinions, to open up the landscape of what's possible for breeders out there. Up until a point I was a massive, I'm going to name drop here and I don't mind it, they can come for me I was a massive pro plan, people feeding, breeder, I used to love the stuff and I used to really like the A) Generally most breeders like a food because they give a good puppy pack or a really good discount or whatever to give to the new owners and generally they might get chucked a bag of dog food. So even if they don't necessarily feed their adults that food, they might feed the puppies it up until a certain point and then transition across to a maintenance food, what we previously mentioned. Anyway, I was a massive pro plan fan and what I really liked about it Back in the days when I used to sort of make up a puppy porridge or gruel, as the Americans called it, used to soak it and used to just like make a really nice consistency. It was almost like a ready break consistency. So there was just no lumps and bumps in it. And so that's, that's one of the reasons that I liked it. And so yeah, with the pro plan, you should be able to add puppy milk into it. And it all used to just really blend really nicely. So that's why I liked it until I had a few issues with puppies that have been weaned onto it and digestive issues that was causing quite significant constipation to the point of, I thought, do you know what? I'm not going to, I'm not going to see that brand of food anymore. And I flitted around with various, Different brands and different reasons, high quality, low quality, adding this tack on that, chucking this. And then I had a problem with a litter that has significant diarrhoea. I mean, to the point of, I had to delay my six weeks puppy viewings because A, they stank and B) well, I couldn't trust that they wouldn't squirt all up the wall while their views were happening. They just looked in such poor conditions. No, it was that bad. It was that horrendous. And I tell you what. I've had pups with E. coli before, but that's for a whole different story as well. And that was kibble fed dogs. That wasn't anything to do with raw food. And these pups were worse than that. And so we did various amounts of worming. We did stool cultures and we did antibiotics. And none of that fixes these puppies. And it wasn't until I was talking to another breeder and they said to me, you need to raw feed those dogs. I thought, are you crazy? These dogs are squirting here, there and everywhere. And you want to put, want me to put raw food down and that's going to fix the problem. Like I literally was just honestly. By chance, I ordered a nutriment, like trial pack and I had a puppy block at the time that I never gave the dogs because no, no one was a puppy and it literally just lived in the freezer forever. So I thought after that person said to me, you need to put on raw. I thought, you know what? I'm going to defrost that block. And I literally had one tray. That was it. I'm going to defrost that tray. I couldn't starve these pups anymore, reduce their food anymore, but I'm going to defrost this tray. I'm going to cut it up and I'm going to see if they want to eat it. Cause I just thought they'd been so under the weather. They might not even have the appetite to eat and then see what the repercussions were. Put the raw food down. They all come up, they ate it within two hours. I had the perfect poo sitting on the puppy mat. I couldn't believe it. I even took a picture of it and sent it to a few people. I was like, Oh my word. From that day. That converted me to that, at least for weaning puppies, raw was the way to go. And there's tons of advantages. That was just fixing a problem and it worked. Some breeders can be quite apprehensive because they're worried about whether the new owners would maintain the raw feeding. But I think it's become so popular now. I think it's so much more widely accepted than it ever has been. been. Well, I'd be surprised if a puppy buyer was ever put off with the thought of I'm not buying a puppy because it's raw fed. I imagine what they would do is actually swap it over onto kibble without telling you, but I don't think you would ever lose a potential puppy sale for that reason. And I would hope that through some education that you could actually explain to them why you'd done that anyway, and they would. they'd be totally bought on to, you know, the reason for it and that it was beneficial for the puppy. From that day onwards, raw has been definitely my go to weaning product. And I know you are, from your standpoint of view, you are hugely into raw. Yeah, no,

Isobel: 5:34

I'm having a giggle here because I think all of our listeners would have been waiting for that exact story to come out of my mouth about how, quite how pro raw you're saying. Yeah, it's not until you've either seen the benefits first hand of the swap or tried to fix a problem, I think a lot of people are converted because a lot of people's is, you know, as for anything in life, if it's not broke, you don't need to, what's the terminology? Yeah, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And I think a lot of people take that mentality with everything in life, dog food probably just being another. So if they've raised, you know, 10, 20 odd litters on kibble, why would they be considering raw? But like you said, there's, there's more than just the the poo benefits to raw, I have to say when it comes to weaning.

Sara: 6:16

Yeah. So do you want to run through a few extra benefits?

Isobel: 6:19

Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you that don't know, I am an avid raw feeder, but I appreciate it doesn't suit everyone. It's not my way or the highway, but raw feeding is where my expertise absolutely do lie. When you're all feed a puppy, you are essentially. Putting into their mouths the nutrition that they were put on the planet to eat. So out in the wild, they would be tucking into raw carcasses from a very, very young age. Apologies if anyone's eaten their breakfast while they're listening to this. You know, it is literally, if you, sort of chicken wings down in the pen, even sort of five, six week old pups, you would be shocked at how quickly they get the hang of what they're doing. And it is literally because they were designed to eat raw. You know, I get it's not for everyone and that's fine. Essentially, it means that their guts and their stomachs are Predisposed and set up to successfully digest raw. So when you're feeding that you encourage the stomach to be a lot more acidic. You encourage the gut bacteria to be a lot healthier and more good gut bacteria to flourish. When those two things happen, when the stomach becomes more acidic. That obviously means it's going to kill off more things when it hits the stomach. So if your, if your pup happens to ingest something like a nasty bug, that bug is far more likely to die off in the stomach rather than get further down the body and take a hold. And the same goes for the gut bacteria as well. So the more good gut bacteria anyone, not just dogs, have in their gut, that provides a bit of a defensive mechanism. Imagine a really deep moat around a castle and a lovely tall castle wall. That's essentially what good Gut bacteria is it's building a really strong defense mechanism the whole way along those intestines and those guts. So when something nasty happens to pass through that gut or pathogen sort of wiggles its way through if, if you've got a lovely strong defensive system. That's far more likely to, to not take hold. It just won't be able to make its way through those defences. So you'll naturally find that you will build a stronger immune system in these young puppies, just from food, which is crazy really when you think it's as simple as diet. But when you have got young pups, I know I mentioned it in another podcast episode, but puppies have immunity from their mother, like with anything in life. It's not a fail safe, you know, mum hasn't given them 100 percent robust immunity against absolutely everything on the planet. So we do need to be doing what we can to give their immune systems a boost, particularly while they're so young and while they're so vulnerable. And as you said there, it's an interesting one because actually, if you build that gut and that stomach up, essentially you will end up with less tummy bugs because. You are protecting them literally from the inside out.

Sara: 8:58

I think it's widely accepted. Some breeders call it the six week squits and there's just this timeframe. If you kibble feed, I've never experienced it raw feeding, but if you kibble feed, it doesn't matter how clean you keep the pen. I don't know if the trigger can sometimes be because of worming that then disrupts the stomach and digestive system. And then that sort of sends them on a One way path to looseness and squittiness. And it's always a concern that I always had definitely as a kibble breeder. And when I'm out and about with my clients they're asking me, oh, the pups have started doing this. What shall I do? And I've just never experienced those issues since I've raw weaned puppies.

Isobel: 9:39

Yeah. I noticed very, very little changes between milk fed poos and, and, and raw poos, to be honest with you, there's very little noticeable transition in, in sort of the digestive system when I'm rearing on raw, I have to say. And like you said there, I think very polite way, you named the six week I'm not sure what you called it, but I have not heard it called that.

Sara: 10:01

The weeks six week squits.

Isobel: 10:03

Yeah, I've heard it called, it's commonly known to us as the six week nstorm. Yeah, yeah. Poonami, I guess that could be now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. There's some nappy ads these days, that terminology. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so it is, it is a common issue. Quick way of solving that is if you feel confident to swap to raw, absolutely swap to raw. Totally understand that weaning is a challenging topic for people. If you're not confident with nutrition and feeding your dog as it is, then weaning an entire litter onto solid food can be really daunting, which again, it's why it's one of my biggest sort of coaching cohorts is, is coaching breeders on how to wean a litter successfully. And it is something I work with a lot of readers very closely on for that reason. But if you have got the six week squits, don't be afraid to look at natural remedies. Something like a natural slippery elm is absolutely super for young puppies because it is such a natural and safe method of soothing the gut lining. Slippery elm is, it sounds a little bit wild in its name. But it is just essentially a type of tree bark from the Slippery Elm tree. And it's a certain portion of the tree bark that contains all of the goodies. It's not all tree bark. I know some brands release sort of tree bark mixes, various different bits and pieces in, but pure Slippery Elm does the trick beautifully without all the additional other tree bark powders in there. I think a lot of brands do it because there are other. Types of tree bark that have other medicinal properties, and some are cheaper and easier to source than slippery elm.

Sara: 11:35

So, like a bit of a filler.

Isobel: 11:37

Yeah, and not necessarily a bad filler, but just a filler. When you've got an upset stomach, it's the slippery elm that you need, first and foremost. So, for me, that's why I spent such a long time formulating the Canine Nutrition Coach Slippery Elm, because I wanted a pure slippery elm powder, because when my dogs are poorly, or I've got, tummy bug going around or any problems with weaning, you just need the slippery elm. And it's pure form, powdered, straight in the food. And again, if you get the six week squirts, you can mix it into their puppy food, their puppy gruel. And it's totally safe for their bodies to be dealing with at that point. They're not too young and it is natural. So you, again, it's, it's a great alternative to the running them down to the vets. Where they could be exposed to a lot more harmful germs and goodness knows what else in the waiting room. Cause essentially the vets is a hospital for poorly dogs. So you don't want to be taking your pups there lightly. Obviously take them if they need it, but something like a bit of an upset tummy, I'd absolutely be trying a natural remedy in the initial instance for certain.

Sara: 12:36

It's a natural glue, isn't it? That's the whole, yes, it can, it binds everything together. And I believe it also coats the digestive tract. Is that right as well? Absolutely. Like absolutely inflammatory element. Yeah.

Isobel: 12:48

Yeah, exactly. So it it creates a nice Yeah. Gluey texture that gently sort of lubricates the, the gut lining essentially and soothes it. And when you think crikey nature managed to somehow design something that useful just in a tree bark, why are we not using it? Yeah. So I've got it in my cupboard for. All stages of dog ownership, not just weaning. Unfortunately, I don't tend to need it an awful lot when weaning because I do raw feed. However, for me in particular, it comes out for the post whelp poos. When mum's eaten one too many placentas and got the runs, Slippery Elms, absolutely fantastic. And with it being a safe and natural product, it's a great alternative to using something that's laden with fillers or, or medicines that you don't really want to be pumping a girl full of when she's lactating and feeding newborn pups as well.

Sara: 13:37

Yeah, I've used, I've used Slippery elm for absolute years and I was sold on it when I ordered it. It was just a random buy online that I'd heard about and before it sort of popped as it has now and I didn't trust it. So what I did is I split a capsule and I poured water in and I watched what happened And it set. And I was like, all right, this is what this does. This is a, this is what I need. This is perfect though. Cause I couldn't get my head around if I just sprinkle it on. That's like going to fix it. If you're in any doubt, pour a capsule out, mix it with a little bit of water, leave it for a bit and go back and you'll see it just sets to like this jelly stuff. It's just good to have in your cupboard for your adult dogs, any general looseness, particularly for show people. If you're travelling. Dogs can get upset tongues through travelling. And if you're showing in a different country abroad and you're caught short with one of the dogs, it is one of those good to have supplements for sure. And I must admit, since I've raw weaned, very rarely use it on puppies at all. At one point I was using it when I was still kibble feeding, when I had wormed, I would give them Slippery Elm as like to solve the problem that worming was about to cause and another product. I haven't purchased since raw feeding is Prokolin in like the, I just don't need stuff.

Isobel: 15:01

Never, never, ever since Slippery Elm and the natural form of Slippery Elm as well. You can tell if it's correct because it should look like ground tree bark. Like it's the color of a, of a light woody brown. And that's how you know that it's a quality supplement and it's pure because it looks the right color and it smells awesome. As, as you would expect it to smell. Yeah. I've not, I've not needed any of the, of the tube stuff since I have to say. No.

Sara: 15:26

And just to sort of move on a bit, when it comes to weaning, since I switched to raw feeding, I don't mix puppy milk into anything. I know people are obsessed with goat's milk. Oh my goodness.

Isobel: 15:40

I get it all the time with my coaching clients. They go, right, well, started the weaning. We're doing goat's milk. I love all my coaching clients. If you're listening, I still get and I'm not being rude. I'm relaying anything. Weetabix. Weetabix is so popular still. And it shocks me and don't get me wrong. I was in that camp many, many years ago. Yeah. I remember helping my grandmother with, with litters. Weetabix was the done thing back then, but times have moved on. Absolutely times have moved on. There's no need for cereal based weaning anymore.

Sara: 16:12

I took on a litter and they were six weeks old and the, the breeder said to me, Oh, they're quite fussy pups. So I was like, okay, what do you mean they're fussy? And she said, They have beef on one meal, then they were having, was it something with cheese on and then they'd had yogurt and then they'd had the, and it was just the array of buffet of food that they had been given at six weeks old, I thought was absolutely phenomenal. And I thought, well, no wonder they're fussy because you're actually giving them too much choice. They don't need to be in dairy. They don't need cheese. People think puppies should look cute, so they should be fat. And I think that's where all this goat's milk driven. element has come through. And I know calcium needs, like as kids, you know, at primary school, you get your little bottle of milk and all the rest of it. So I think we have these whole elements apply to our dogs as well. But she'd been given this crazy amount of food. I thought, well, I'm not doing that. They are going to eat more food or they're going to go hungry. I literally reduced their number of fees to make them hungry. So when I put the raw food down, they ate it. And then once they're into that habit, then I increased it back to what it should have been, and we'd solved a massive problem because if they had gone to their new owners, being fed that way, that's a nightmare for a new owner to take on a puppy with that issue. already at eight weeks old. They should be at the point where you put the food down, they're hungry, they're growing, they need to eat it, they eat it, it's gone. We move on to the next thing.

Isobel: 17:44

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so important to, in my opinion, pups don't leave me if they're not eating reliably, solidly. and enjoying their food because the number one fuel for life is food, food and water. You've got litter that is slow to wean. It does happen. It happens to the best of us. Do you need to consider, in my opinion, holding those pups back because it's not fair on a new owner if they're a first time dog owner, or maybe even just not had a puppy for a good couple of years. They'll have forgotten right how enduring getting a new puppy is and having a new puppy that isn't eating.

Sara: 18:15

It's just not fair on anyone. So it's important to get the weaning process right. We need to not make fussy puppies in the first place. Too much of a variety of food is going to cause that. I'm a keep it simple. So once people start making up these porridges and these gruels and adding this in and that it becomes some kind of witch's brew, like new owners aren't going to carry that on. I was amazed. When I wean my pups, generally if it's bulldogs, I do like the Royal Canin baby dog mousse. because it just must smell so much more enticing from moving from milk onto that. And generally, because like you said earlier on, Oh, you can give a puppy chicken wings. I would not give a bulldog puppy chicken wings. Bulldogs do not chew. They eat things whole. So you have to be very selective.

Isobel: 19:04

I should have put a puppy out there and a danger warning of please don't do this for any breed. Only if your dogs are already used to this. Yeah. DIY concept

Sara: 19:14

exactly where I've been more than happy to give the Labrador chicken window because they innate DNAs, they knew to chew, to bite, to try and rip apart bulldogs, just go, oh yeah, food swallow. Oh, well that's not good. So yeah, definitely sense what's right for your breed. So with the Bulldogs, I always do the raw canon, baby dog Mose, and then I mix that into the raw, and then obviously the Mose becomes less. the raw increases and then they're weaned onto raw. Weaning them onto a fluid, they get water in the bowl, in the corner, eventually they're standing it enough times, they realise they can actually drink it and quench their thirst and then they're weaned. I don't add milk in, I don't, Do a 50/50, it's a, it's a straight swap. And my Labradors were even easier because I tried the baby dog moose and their appetite was so ferocious that they were eating virtually a tin each and then making themselves loose. So I thought, you know what, let's just go on to food. And I literally just put a bowl of food down and they all walked up to it. They ate the raw and they were weaned. That was it in one, I couldn't believe it. Oh, the predestined. Yeah, I'd weaned these puppies. Sometimes I might add a little bit of water because obviously it depends where you're sourcing your raw from. Some of them could be quite bloody, some aren't, and I think sometimes it depends how they've been processed, where your batch is. Some might be more bloody than others and that kind of thing. So if I ever found the consistency a little bit dry, I'd just add a bit of water in. Just, just to make it a little bit more sloppy if that was beneficial to the pups, but it's never milk. It's just a little bit of water mixed in. Off we go. And yeah, let's say that's two different breeds on total ends of the spectrum that will both happily wean on to raw. No questions asked.

Isobel: 21:02

Good next question for you. What age do you like to start weaning your puppies? Because I know you said that in jest , the Labradors are weaned in one session, but as we mentioned in another podcast episode about mastitis, it does have to be a somewhat gradual process. So what, at what point do you start that process with your pups?

Sara: 21:21

Yeah, generally the Labradors, really, once eyes are open and they can stand, then there's a, there's a conversation to be had to start weaning, even if it's at the lowest possible level. I think generally people want to rush it. So yeah, like I said, I did wean in a day. Well, I didn't, like, it was the fact of I could just put food down and they ate it, that they still were going on mum and we weaned them slowly off of mum. But I think it's. Breed dependent. So for instance, my Labradors weaned at three weeks, they, they could literally walk up to the bowl. They could hold themselves up. They could eat, chew, walk away. No problem. I've had bulldogs at the same age that can't even stand. They're still head nodding. They've got no stability. So I would still wean them, but I wouldn't wean them in that way. That would be a case of, and I'm with my bulldogs. I am a little bit quirky. I will wean them individually. So I will have a bowl per puppy. I will make the consistency of the food, whatever I want it to be. I like the silicone baby spoons and I will literally spoon feed them the amount that I want them to have. And then I'll go for the next one and the next one and then this one. And then I'll slowly build up that amount. And it's not until I'm happy that they, they will actually. Yeah. Can stand steady and comfortably that I would then transition them to a bowl or weaning bowl, whatever, where the Labradors, there were so, cause they're lighter. They were so up on their feet from earlier. They were just more advanced that I didn't need to do the spoon feeding, but I start baby dogs. Me. So I started that way and just thought, you know what, these are way past that. Like I don't need to make life difficult. Let's just put the food and see how they go. And they were fine. So age wise. Generally three weeks ish in regards to bulldog puppies, you can wean from puppy's last eyes opening. And that would generally happen if you've got a puppy where the milk quality isn't good, the weight gains are quite slow. So the easiest thing is to at least Get some controlled food of high calories of quality into them. There's, so there's no major rush for it, but I would say bulldog people tend to wean earlier rather than later find that the working breeds tend to wean later rather than earlier. I think generally just for convenience. I think bulldog people pretty much accepted that whatever you do with a bulldog, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. There are no saving or time or effort anywhere. And after Welsh it's easier to be able to put a bowl of food down and know who's eating what then at the weight of the milk bar. As I said, they're controlled feeds anyway, and spend half an hour. feeding pups when actually you could get that feed done in 10 minutes if they were weaned. But yeah, for me generally three weeks is the benchmark, maybe slightly earlier depending on the circumstances. And I generally wouldn't do much later. I don't think there's many breeds that should be much later than that. Or, well, I don't know, maybe the Gatsby's because they are

Isobel: 24:19

Yeah, absolutely. So the miniature dachshunds generally, particularly if it's a smaller litter, we find a slower to develop. If there's a larger litter, generally they sort of speed up with their neurological development and so can be weaned sooner. So yeah, I have a similar sort of benchmark of milestones to you where I want eyes open and at least to have, not necessarily being able to stand, but be able to be weight bearing and sort of comfortably be, you Shuffling around in the right direction. As a breed, they are less quick to wean than your Labradors. They're not a breed where you can put down a bowl of raw food and they're going to be weaned immediately. So the way I wean is a little bit labor intensive. It sounds quite similar to the Bulldogs to be honest with you. And I do use a premade. puppy mix. I do raw feed, but I buy a weaning mix. The reason being is firstly, when you've got litter on the ground, you're likely to be exhausted and time poor. So you don't want to be stood in the kitchen. It goes without saying, obviously you can wean onto raw using supermarket purchased meats. If you're going to go down that route, please just make sure it's been frozen for two weeks because the puppy's immune systems are compromised. So you do need to make sure that, that, that any meat that you do feed has been deep, deep frozen for two weeks prior.

Sara: 25:35

Hang on, let me just check on that. So I'm assuming if you're buying fresh meat and then freezing it, if you're buying frozen, would you assume? It's already been frozen?

Isobel: 25:45

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I would be horrified if you bought, if you purchased a frozen raw food and it hadn't already been deep frozen for two weeks, because really they, They should be doing that as a built in safety feature in their production line, to be honest with you. But you could, in theory, go out and purchase a pack of protein minces, whether that be chicken or beef from a supermarket, trying to make this as easy as possible. For some people that might be new to raw feeding, needs to go in the freezer for two weeks, and then obviously defrosted in a sensible way, as you would human food. Continue the same levels of hygiene as you would if you're preparing meat in your own kitchen for yourself. And then at which point, I'm very similar to you, I use pre boiled water, so I boil my water from the kettle, let it go nearly lukewarm, and then I mix that into the raw food, whether that be a weaning paste, or chicken or beef mince, to get a very loose, pasty texture, similar to what I would imagine you make with your baby dog mousse and water. I aim for a similar texture with my raw food. So really wet, as wet as possible to start with. And I, unfortunately, I have to get it all over my fingers because it's the only way that I can get generally my mince chardaxons to sort of get the first taste of raw. So I make sure that it's warm on my fingers. It's a warm, sticky mess. And I have the pups lick it off my fingers. I do it individually, pup by pup. It is a messy affair, but at the end of the day, it's what works and that's what's most important. And I do that once a day to start with, make sure everyone's getting a good taste for it. And then I obviously increase it slowly as we go. I don't expect my puppies to be on any significant level of, of raw meat for at least the first week. For the first week, for me, it is very much just having them get good tastes. of the meat mixture off my hands several times a day, to be honest with you. So they do sound a lot slower to wean in comparison to your Labradors.

Sara: 27:31

Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, the lads are phenomenal. Even I couldn't believe my luck. I quite like the silicone baby spoons. I'd rather not get my fingers messy. But because obviously they're just. Fold and bend to the shape. So actually for the pups, I think you should try that because they probably don't make any difference.

Isobel: 27:50

No, it probably wouldn't. In my mind I do a bit because I'm like, my fingers are warm and then I've got warm meat on them. I don't know. To be honest with you, it's probably one of those things. If it's not broke, don't fix it. It's probably the approach that I've been taking with weaning because I've just been. Getting it on my hands and doing it that way for a while. But it doesn't mean to say that a new approach might not work. So I'm going to get those silicon spoons ordered in for ASAP for my next litter, I have to say.

Sara: 28:14

They were worth it. When you talked about the human grade food, it will work out very expensive. Yes, absolutely. I had a slight problem with the delivery of some of my raw food. And so I, into him, I was like, ah, let's run to the supermarket and go and buy all the minces that they've got. And I was like, wow, this is really expensive for a small amount of raw food. Obviously people can do that, but. cost effectiveness.

Isobel: 28:40

Absolutely. That is not the way to go. Especially if you've got a large breed or a large litter, a hundred percent. I, as I said here, I'm dealing with adult dogs between four and five kilograms. You can imagine how small my pups are and they're on average smaller litters. The other thing that's worth saying is it's a good starting point. If you want to go down the route of supermarket minces, obviously you need to make sure that they don't have added sodium or added salt because that will dehydrate new puppies. You'll very often find sort of, even in the freezer section. what looks like potentially just pure chicken breasts that have been frozen. You'll often find that they've been treated with a water sodium mix. So steer clear of anything like that. So if you go in the frozen section and buy frozen minces, the likelihood is that it's treated in the same way. You're more likely to need to buy that from the fridge section and then freeze it down yourself. defrost it. It's worth me adding here that isn't a balanced diet. No dog can thrive off purely chicken protein or purely beef protein. I say that because it's a great way of getting pups used to the flavor and it's, with it being boneless minces, it's really easy to change the The consistency. So you can start off with loads of water and it's a really wet paste. And as we go, I include less and less water up to the point where it's nice stringy bits of mince and the puppies are having to chew at which point when those pups are thriving and chewing on minces. If you're not a confident raw feeder, it's at that point that you need to consider moving your pups over to a complete or at least a balanced puppy diet, because they will need many more nutrients than just what's in that mince for development. So that's personally why, yes, the supermarket mince is there and we've all been caught short, me included, even when we've got litter on the ground. It's a good tool to use at that point, but I personally, for that reason, will buy a branded weaning paste. The reason I say a weaning paste even though it's raw is because if it does have bone content depending on the brand that you will go with, it will either be a powdered bone that is included or a bone is so finely minced that the puppies won't struggle on it. If you buy a puppy mix that is more likely designed for puppies 8 weeks or 10 weeks and above that have already got their Puppy teeth nice and in, have understood the concept of chewing, and are happy to consume small pieces of bone. It is not suitable for four week old, three week old puppies, so please make sure you're buying the appropriate pre made weaning minces, because they are great, and I use them. There's no need to be worried about using them, they're brilliant, they're designed with convenience in mind, so there's no need to be afraid of that.

Sara: 31:11

Now that's, that's amazing as your stages are boneless or you're weaning paste and then onto your puppy mix and then they go to new homes and then they can transition onto adult from there. Knowing people buy the wrong mix and then they've had to pick out all the bits of bone before they give it to the pups and that kind of thing. That's their easy enough transition path and there's quite a few raw food manufacturers now that actually are supplying the variation of which before. Really there was, I only knew of one place but now that, yeah, that market is definitely opened up now. And just to add, I'm not a massive fan of a chicken based raw. I just generally like to stay away from it. And the problem is I found a lot of the raw weaning paste are chicken based. I have managed to find non chicken.

Isobel: 32:00

Yeah, you do just have to dig around. It's a matter of, you've just got to put the hours in the research or just go to a professional that can help you out, like myself. And I just coach you through it and give the information to you on a plate. Excuse the pun. So, the other thing is with chicken, it's a great protein. My dogs As a lot of raw fed dogs get a whole plethora of different proteins to make sure that they are getting the variety they need, as do my pups before they leave, it's worth saying here that if your bitch suffers from itchiness, or potentially allergies, which hopefully she won't bearing in mind you've bred her, but there might be an instance where a girl seems to show some allergenic tendencies after the point you've bred her if that's the case, chicken is one of the most likely proteins to potentially cause Some form of allergy or reaction. There's many reasons behind this, but as I said, if you notice your girl is potentially on that spectrum of being a little bit allergenic, I would consider that the pups could be the same, so you might find that chicken isn't the best protein to be weaning those pups onto if mum already has those tendencies or dad in that instance, actually, because The tendency to have allergies is genetic, the allergy itself isn't, so if, you know, if dad is allergic and cannot eat chicken, I'm not saying that the pups will inherit a chicken allergy, it's more the fact that if you have a tendency to have allergies, that is what is genetic. So if mum or dad have some form of allergies, just be aware that if you wean on to any type of food for that matter, not just raw, raw is bad. In some, some aspects easier to lean onto if that's the case because it's very easy to identify and pinpoint potential allergenic proteins straight away because generally meat mixes are single protein. It's something to be aware of.

Sara: 33:47

Yeah, I've only experienced it once and the only telltale sign was excessive tear stains and they all had red crusty necks on them. And so we just changed the, the protein base and the problem was fixed. And so, yeah, that was kind of the final nail in the coffin for chicken for me, which I'm just not going to do. I don't feed my adults chicken. So why am I doing that with my pup? So yeah, like, apart from that, they were finding themselves, they gained weight, stools were fine. It wasn't enough for me not to stop raw feeding. It was just a case of, yeah, let's switch up your protein and feeding.

Isobel: 34:21

Trial and error.

Sara: 34:23

Yeah, exactly. And also. I know some breeders are slightly hesitant because they're worried about the conversation of, of new owners then taking on a puppy that's raw fed. I think I need to like say that I'm some kind of like hybrid feeder because I had no alliance, I've said it in other podcasts, to any method of feeding. So I am a person, I like my pregnant mums to be on raw, she stays on raw and while she's weaning, rearing pups and that kind of thing. And the pups I put onto raw, but generally once the pups get to six months, I then start transitioning to a kibble food either for convenience or a cold press food. I prefer cold pressed over kibble, but it all depends on the circumstances. So I kind of sell that to my puppy owners saying, look, Even if you really hate doing this, you're getting them at eight weeks, already two months old. And at six months, I have no problem with you changing them to this. So it's only four months of hell at worst. Surely you can get through that of just defrosting some food. And I get it. Some people with kids don't want to do it though. I think that's all a bit of a myth. That's just general hygiene and best practice of. Keeping things clean and tidy, but I get it from a convenience point of view. You've got to remember to be defrosting food. Storage is a bit of a nightmare.

Isobel: 35:43

Yeah. Like you need the dog freezer.

Sara: 35:46

Exactly. So I totally get it. And as a breeder weaning puppies onto raw is more expensive because, well, I'll say a 40 pound bag of kibble, but it'd be 60 pound nowadays, wouldn't it? A 60 pound bag of kibble is going to last you a lot longer than, you That amount, if you buy raw food, I think I was getting through 34 kilos every four days. I think I last had a conversation with a Great Dane breeder and at eight weeks, they're generally eating a kilo of raw per puppy. So, and you imagine they have 10, 12 in a litter, if not 16, that's a lot of raw food that you're plowing through. So I understand that the cost element might be a reason why breeders Don't go down that route, but to me, the positives of it far outweigh that. And even having, I tell you now, a litter of puppies, raw fed, you could not clean their pen for two days and it still wouldn't smell poo. You might smell a wee, but it wouldn't smell a poo. Raw poo just doesn't. Smell doesn't emit the odor is easier to manage. They don't trample in it and it gets smeared everywhere. Cleaning the pens in the morning is so much easier. So to me, that far outweighs not feeding raw. And the reality of it is, is puppies should probably be priced more expensive to accommodate that extra cost.

Isobel: 37:11

Yeah, that's a really good perspective. I mean, if you are struggling, it said, if you're struggling to fund. The, the uplift in food. I think that's a really good approach. Just raise, raise the price of your puppy slightly just to cover the food cost. Absolutely. Because a lot of new owners, I would hope, especially for attracting the right sort of families, they would put value in the fact that you've raised those puppies that, that much. You know, the top care and attention and you've set their immune system up for life by feeding them on, on the diet that is best for them.

Sara: 37:40

I know puppy prices and all that kind of thing people get uncomfortable with, but in the reality, especially with the lab puppies, they, they could eat you out of house and home quite quickly. And I said to the owner, the reason the pups are this price is because they've been read. This way, because that's what I believe as a breeder is the best way to start them off on the right path for you. And I tell you what, ever since I've raw fed, I've never had a new owner say I've got the part it's somewhere out. It's got an upset stomach. It's I just never had that. I mean, I've changed my vaccination protocol. So probably. might be part of it as well. The whole transition into a new home just seems to be easier. I don't know if it's because of the immune system set up better. It removes all of those conversations. So it is more expensive, but realistically you need to look at how much benefit that actually brings to the litter and your own sanity of rearing puppies, because it doesn't need to be as a nightmare as people have it be. And I think it ends up being that way because you're trying to keep costs low. Yeah. And so actually from a breeder's perspective, it actually makes your life rearing puppies much more difficult. Let's take that hit and accept that that's going to cost that amount of money, but it means I can rear the puppies this way. So I generally say to my new owners, look, just put up with it for four months, then transition across, fill your boot. And then I just recommend if you're going to do kibble, this one, if you're going to do cold press, this one, if you're going to do raw, this one, you can decide at that point from six months old. And I've had some owners go, do you know what I'm actually moving my. It dogs that I've already got onto raw because I want to go down the raw food route and then I've had other owners go, do you know what? I cannot wait till they're six months old because I need to put them on the kibble. Which one do you recommend? And there is no right or wrong. I'm over that bit. Ultimately, what I found is that a raw fed puppy will grow totally different. What I've come to realize is coming from Bulldog background is so many of the puppies are obese and yet we've been conditioned a little bit to go, Oh wow, that's really cute. Look at all those wrinkles. No, that's a massive obese puppy. And that's why sometimes they can't walk properly on their back legs. They haven't got the strength to lift their own weight where they're already that heavy. It can't be good on their joints. It can have too much of a good thing. And so what I've realized now is, I know my pups grow different on raw and I don't need to compare that because as breeders we do that you got your cute little pups and then you go online you go oh my god look at those ones and look at those ones and look how big those ones are and even I had a microchipping in today and the guy was like oh what my are my pups looking the right size Like, what were your Labradors like, I can't remember. They were the weight that they were. Like, it didn't bother me as long as proportionate is right for the dog. But we get this whole comparison mindset and we have it all on Instagram that kind of thing. But what I've come to learn is the growth rate of a raw fed puppy is slower, but steadier. And it's just, it's like this solid framework that you're working on. It's just not too much of anything is what's correct for that dog. And I've showed you Isobel, haven't I, where I've seen online, I've gone, look at this puppy, somebody else's puppy, look at that, and then look what it's grown into. And they, they weren't comparable. And then when I've looked so, Oh yeah, cause it was just a big, fat overdone puppy. And actually probably if they raw fed that pup, they would have known. Yeah. Well, they would have seen the actual confirmation of the dog to know that actually really it's going to turn into that. It was always going to turn into that. But you can mask so much with extra covering. So as like, I'm a show breeder 30 years in, I'm always assessing my puppies. I'm always trying to pick which ones pick a litter, which ones put together, right. Always trying to forecast what they might grow into, even at four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, and then the reality of it all. But what I've learned is actually forecasting that easier on a raw fed dog because they hide nothing. Everything is there to be seen from the beginning. Yeah, that's a really, that's a really interesting perspective as well. So, sorry, that's my little rant of puppy assessment. Let's now have a look at puppy feeding schedules. So, what have you got to say on the subject, Isobel? I must say,

Isobel: 41:58

I'm very lax when it comes to weaning schedules. Because To an extent, I'm guided by the pups, so I don't even start the same litter at the same time. I literally just go on milestones. Do they look ready to start weaning? Yes or no? I then am also somewhat guided by how keen the pups are on the food. Sometimes you'll have a litter that are sounding like your Labradors, where they have a couple of tastes of the raw paste, and they absolutely go wild for it, and you think, this is going to be easy. Good, you know, a couple of days of taste and we're on to doing it multiple times a day. Whereas sometimes, particularly smaller litters, and I find sometimes boys are a bit slower, I don't know why, you know, it can take me a good couple of days to even have them getting excited over having a taste of the food. So particularly in the initial instance, I don't have a schedule, I'm guided by the pups. So in that sort of somewhere, sometimes they're, you know, you know, Just before three weeks, I can start giving them a taste when it's nearer four weeks. So anywhere in that sliding scale, the first couple of days, if not weaker, again, another sliding scale for me.

Sara: 42:58

Yeah, I have do you know what I find? If they're good milk feeders, they don't want to wean. So I've always found if they're slower milk feeders, they'll take to the food a lot quicker because they're just like, yeah, I'm hungry. This is easier. But if you've got a big fat podgy pup that just can sit on a tee and is quite happy doing so, they're always the hardest ones to then try and convince that food is the way forward. In regards to weaning schedules, I've developed a whole puppy playbook. Basically I have a puppy feeding guide that has sort of set Feeding schedule from newborn to cups at eight weeks old. Now this is exactly that. It's just a guide. So even though I designed and developed this, it doesn't mean that I religiously stick to this myself, but at least it shows me, for instance to pick one out at four weeks, typically I would be doing two, maybe three weaning meals a day. And then the other three would actually be milk feeds. So it literally is a gauge for me to know whether I'm behind the curve, in front of the curve. It's more important that you go with the puppies that are in front of you rather than trying to force them into a timetable that's not actually right for them. But I like this gauge because it just gives you a benchmark of where you should be. So. Yeah. I was going to say it's a free download on the, on the caninefamilyplanner. com website, but it's not.

Isobel: 44:27

You'll have to buy the puppy playbook then, won't they, Sara? Yeah. I must say I actually do use Sara the Canine Family Planner's playbooks for all of my litters. It does make me laugh. I've got an old stack of the playbooks with all my puppy records in. I used to use Excel back in the day. That used to be the way that I used to store it all. I just, I'm a big fan of pen and paper. And when you've got puppy brains sitting on your laptop and the bright screens, it's just, it's not for me. I'd much rather just pen and paper.

Sara: 44:54

You're not going to pull out the laptop at two o'clock in the morning to write something down where a bit of pen and paper you're going to. So, yeah, I mean, I'm all for technology and who knows, maybe one day we'll get this in an app. Yeah, let's see, let's see. But for now, yeah, the playbook is, I think it's a 50 page, A4 colored printed workbook, which maybe we'll go through one day. Maybe we'll just do a walk through of all the things that are on there because it is all the...

Isobel: 45:19

We should, because ultimately that's what you and I both happen to do with our litters and it's the somewhat blueprint that we've inevitably ended up using very similar protocol for and all the other breeders that purchase your playbook. It's just got in it what breeders need. So it'd probably be quite sensible. Yeah.

Sara: 45:37

As you say, I've got a big old stack and I actually even like it from the point of view of, I can go back and look at that female's First litter or second litter and see how those pups weight gains are different to what I've got in front of me and that kind of thing. I think, yeah, that it's just a good archive. But yeah, so I do have a feeding schedule. I'm not like religious to it. I bend and flex as the puppies in front of me. Generally, I want pups on four meals a day when they leave at eight weeks old.

Isobel: 46:06

Yes, I am exactly the same. Yeah, that's exactly what mine go.

Sara: 46:11

And that fits really easy with like a human's lifestyle of when you will eat anyway. So yeah, generally that's what my aim for is in regards to scheduling and weaning. Once you decide to raw feed, the element of making up mixes and porridges and that kind of thing just takes it out the window. As a raw feeder, I am a straightforward person. I just want to buy it in a packet, defrost it and feed it. So I'm, I literally would buy just dog boneless and then I would move on to the weaning paste and then move on to the puppy mix that I just keep it that simple. I'm not making up my own stuff. I haven't got time for that.

Isobel: 46:46

It shouldn't be that difficult though, because if it's, if you make it so complex that it bends your brain at a time when you're already stressed, you're not going to do it and you're not going to do it well. So sometimes simple is best and don't shy away from trying. it. It can literally be that simple

Sara: 47:01

and say, puppy brain is a dangerous thing. So that's it. Oh, it is. Let me tell you. So those new crazy, I learned me and my mum used to rear litters way back in the day. And we'd have these crazy ideas that like, you know, Three o'clock in the morning, then we'll start implementing them. And then we knew by like the nine o'clock in the morning feed, it was a really bad idea. So we learned, we had like this pact between us that if we had a new idea, we would not implement it until daylight because the puppy brain was taking its hold. That's what puppy brain does to you. You start doing crazy things that seem logical, but they're totally not. And one of the benefits of the, puppy playbook is also, if you're rearing a litter and you have shared responsibility, so you're splitting the rearing, you can write notes down and leave them for the next person to then pick up. They can look at the progress of each puppy. So I quite like it from like a hand off point of view as well.

Isobel: 47:57

The thing's worth saying about weaning as well is it is a process, so you should be taking notes. So if you've got a pup that's slow to take to the food, You should be writing that down because it might well be that actually a couple of days after that puppy becomes unwell or that actually it's starting to lose weight or not gaining weight in the same way. Breeding is all about the jigsaw puzzle. So keeping these observations in a sensible place and written down will only benefit you yourself in the future. And if you're taking these observations and finding that every weaning meal you're offering the pups are slow to feed, Well, if you're taking observations, you could think, well, why is that? And try and break it down. Oh, it's because mum's had free access to the pups in the hour up to run up. Something that we probably haven't touched on is for me, particularly as I'm moving into the further processes of further weeks of weaning, I'll make sure that mum's not in there giving them the milk bar half an hour before they're due their lunch. I will intentionally kind of keep her away for an hour, hour and a half, two hours, depending on how far along in the process we are. So that the pups are hungry by the time the food comes around and taking these observations will help you find these patterns. E, every day is a school day. You can't raise two litters the same way, and you can't probably wean two liters the same way.

Sara: 49:09

That level of observation is a big one because, for instance, if I am going to start weaning, I would always do it the first meal of the day. Because they've gone all night and they're hungry. Mum hasn't been with them. My head, that's just something I would do without actually necessarily communicating to somebody. Maybe if you're doing a nine o'clock, 11 o'clock feed, they're not going to be as hungry because they've had mum in the morning and then the food is less tempting. That level of detail is what is needed without a doubt. Have we covered everything? I think, I believe so. Not bad for how to avoid the weaning woes and that we're very pro raw food. But again, like there's nothing wrong with kibble. That's your bag. That's fine. Go with it. We get it from convenience point of view, cost point of view. Absolutely, yeah. And every dog's different.

Isobel: 49:54

Yeah. And there's an argument for and against in both cases. Jump in the facebook group if you're not already in there and we'd love to hear your comments. If you've got other You know, swear by methods or tips that you think other breeders will benefit from. This is the whole purpose of this community and this podcast is we can all help each other. We laugh all the time. Every day is a school day. Sara and I started this podcast because we'd be on the phone on the regular, teaching each other new things all the time, you know, from conversations we've had with other breeders or things that have come up in our own breeding program.

Sara: 50:24

There's always something to learn from each other. So please do jump in that group and offer your insights and get involved in the discussion. Yeah,

Isobel: 50:30

I can add, add no more to that. Join us, continue the conversation. Absolutely. We should say it's the Breeders Brew Facebook group for anyone that didn't catch that. And I'm sure we'll pop the link in the show notes as well, but look forward to seeing you over there. Please do share us with any like minded breeders, have the chat, share us on Instagram, Facebook, any other social platform, just so that we can help more people along the way. Please give us a like, subscribe, follow do all the things please that we can, we can, read the word.

Sara: 50:58

Yeah, exactly that. Super stuff, right, we're signing off.

Isobel: 51:01

Bye!

Sara: 51:02

Hey, before you go, head to breedersbrew. com to claim your free critical care sheet and receive your invitation to join us in the Breeders Brew Community Forum.